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Getbig Main Boards => General Topics => Topic started by: Diesel1 on November 24, 2006, 03:21:40 AM
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It would be great news only you just know that she'll get a massive compo payment for this infringement of her 'civil rights'
(http://i15.tinypic.com/2akahs0.gif)
'Veil Row' Teacher Sacked
Updated: 11:07, Friday November 24, 2006
A Muslim teaching assistant who was suspended for refusing to take off her veil in class has been sacked by the school, Sky sources say.
Aishah Azmi, 24, had lost her case for discrimination and harrassment at an employment tribunal last month.
But the tribunal found that she had been victimised by the school in Dewsbury, West Yorkshire and awarded her £1,000 for "injury to feelings".
Headfield Church of England Junior school had given her permission to wear the veil in corridors and the staff room but told to take it off when in class.
She was suspended on full pay earlier this year by Kirklees Council.
Mrs Azmi said she was willing to remove her veil in front of children - but not when male colleagues were present.
Her case sparked a national debate on multiculturalism in Britain.
More follows...
http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1241872,00.html
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Look at the state of her...
amc seems to believe that shit is acceptable in British society :o :( >:(
Thank fuck anyhow, they've done the RIGHT thing.
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I can have as much of my face covered wearing a full beard, cap and sunglasses, hell that's how half of wyoming looks in the winter anyway, no big brother motherfuckers telling people to show their faces there... That would go over real well... I don't like the veils, but this isn't fucking freedom. Yea Islam is a crime against freedom but being free comes with making bad and good choices... Isn't that what Donald Rumsfeld said once ::) This isn't freedom, it's pissy british spy cam centers pissed that they can't get an id on the black sheet walking down the street. If the bitch want's to cover her face, it's stupid but let her, it's none of your goddamned fucking business you commie fucks. Yea I know what you're going to say Nordic you fucking homo twit, save it, I don't give the slightest rats ass what you think.
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I can have as much of my face covered wearing a full beard, cap and sunglasses, hell that's how half of wyoming looks in the winter anyway, no big brother motherfuckers telling people to show their faces there... That would go over real well... I don't like the veils, but this isn't fucking freedom. Yea Islam is a crime against freedom but being free comes with making bad and good choices... Isn't that what Donald Rumsfeld said once ::) This isn't freedom, it's pissy british spy cam centers pissed that they can't get an id on the black sheet walking down the street. If the bitch want's to cover her face, it's stupid but let her, it's none of your goddamned fucking business you commie fucks. Yea I know what you're going to say Nordic you fucking homo twit, save it, I don't give the slightest rats ass what you think.
meltdown
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I'm glad she got sacked. I'm all for diversity in society but her arrogance is beyond belief.
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meltdown
Glad you liked it 8) It was at least a 2.5 on my meltdown scale to 10 ;D
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I can have as much of my face covered wearing a full beard, cap and sunglasses, hell that's how half of wyoming looks in the winter anyway, no big brother motherfuckers telling people to show their faces there... That would go over real well... I don't like the veils, but this isn't fucking freedom. Yea Islam is a crime against freedom but being free comes with making bad and good choices... Isn't that what Donald Rumsfeld said once ::) This isn't freedom, it's pissy british spy cam centers pissed that they can't get an id on the black sheet walking down the street. If the bitch want's to cover her face, it's stupid but let her, it's none of your goddamned fucking business you commie fucks. Yea I know what you're going to say Nordic you fucking homo twit, save it, I don't give the slightest rats ass what you think.
Nah, bro. This shit is getting out of hand. If the school has a rule that forbids the wearing of burkas then she has to comply. And I fail to see how any rational person can say this infringes upon her civil rights.
I'm a libertarian and all, but I don't like being for someone's rights at the expense of others. This bitch shouldn't be going around like Darth Vader, soon she'll demand a red glow dager from a Sikh to can be a Sith Master. ::)
These people purposely don't want to integrate.
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Nah, bro. This shit is getting out of hand. If the school has a rule that forbids the wearing of burkas then she has to comply. And I fail to see how any rational person can say this infringes upon her civil rights.
I'm a libertarian and all, but I don't like being for someone's rights at the expense of others. This bitch shouldn't be going around like Darth Vader, soon she'll demand a red glow dager from a Sikh to can be a Sith Master. ::)
These people purposely don't want to integrate.
Sorry I was not more clear, I had in mind with my comments the larger debate over the drive to have the things banned entirely and should have been specific. No I don't disagree with an asshole employers right to be the usual prick, I personally disagree but it is their right. It does remind me of the only time I've ever been impressed with Walmart, there lives a family of wizards in Wyoming, the father is Gandalf... Looks the part exactly, Walmart hired him and did not require that he dress normally... So it was cool, you'd go into Walmart to pick up something and Gandalf would be stocking shelves ;D Conformity is piss.
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Nah, bro. This shit is getting out of hand. If the school has a rule that forbids the wearing of burkas then she has to comply. And I fail to see how any rational person can say this infringes upon her civil rights.
I'm a libertarian and all, but I don't like being for someone's rights at the expense of others. This bitch shouldn't be going around like Darth Vader, soon she'll demand a red glow dager from a Sikh to can be a Sith Master. ::)
These people purposely don't want to integrate.
Bravo!
Berserker, you suck!
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Look at the state of her...
amc seems to believe that shit is acceptable in British society :o :( >:(
Thank f**k anyhow, they've done the RIGHT thing.
I agree, she should remove the veil when teaching and in situations where a visual identification of her face is needed.
But, if in her spare-time she wants to walk around looking like Satan's postbox, so be it. I fail to see how this is going to cause the fabric of society to unravel.
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I agree, she should remove the veil when teaching and in situations where a visual identification of her face is needed.
But, if in her spare-time she wants to walk around looking like Satan's postbox, so be it. I fail to see how this is going to cause the fabric of society to unravel.
Christ, I'm starting to sound like Berserker! :o
I'll have to go and post some insensitive comments in the dead grandma thread. :)
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I always wondered..... Don't Muslims sitting in a house, in the middle of a place hotter than the sun get uncomfortable wearing a cloth suit from head to toe ???
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I can have as much of my face covered wearing a full beard, cap and sunglasses, hell that's how half of wyoming looks in the winter anyway, no big brother motherfuckers telling people to show their faces there... That would go over real well... I don't like the veils, but this isn't fucking freedom. Yea Islam is a crime against freedom but being free comes with making bad and good choices... Isn't that what Donald Rumsfeld said once ::) This isn't freedom, it's pissy british spy cam centers pissed that they can't get an id on the black sheet walking down the street. If the bitch want's to cover her face, it's stupid but let her, it's none of your goddamned fucking business you commie fucks. Yea I know what you're going to say Nordic you fucking homo twit, save it, I don't give the slightest rats ass what you think.
It's an affront to any civilized, westernized woman to have to see other women walking down the street in their slave-wear. Western women fought too long and hard for their rights to get on that bus driving backwards.
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It's an affront to any civilized, westernized woman to have to see other women walking down the street in their slave-wear. Western women fought too long and hard for their rights to get on that bus driving backwards.
who gives a shit... an affront to you ::) who the fuck is asking you to put on a veil? If they want to wear it, whatthefuckever. I'm all for woman's liberation, but not the Nazi dike bitches that insist all women conform to their way or the highway. I heard the same said of women who want to have a family and be a housewife, the same driving backwards bullshit... newsflash, it's freedom, what you're advocating is not. They need to leave by choice, not by edict... Like marching into Iraq and telling them they have to have democracy, that's working really well.
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who gives a shit... an affront to you ::) who the f**k is asking you to put on a veil? If they want to wear it, whatthefuckever. I'm all for woman's liberation, but not the Nazi dike bitches that insist all women conform to their way or the highway. I heard the same said of women who want to have a family and be a housewife, the same driving backwards bullshit... newsflash, it's freedom, what you're advocating is not. They need to leave by choice, not by edict... Like marching into Iraq and telling them they have to have democracy, that's working really well.
You're totally missing the point and it has nothing to do with Nazi dyke bitches screaming shrill slogans... and it certainly isn't comparable in the slightest to women wanting to stay home and have children. If it's religious freedom you're advocating, then why can't arab men living in the UK take 15 wives if they want to? Why is it still against the law for those whose custom it is to circumcize their girls?
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I agree, she should remove the veil when teaching and in situations where a visual identification of her face is needed.
But, if in her spare-time she wants to walk around looking like Satan's postbox, so be it. I fail to see how this is going to cause the fabric of society to unravel.
That's the problem, guys like Nordic want the thing banned everywhere, not just in the workplace.
In the UK, you can look like this and Intenseone wouldn't remember this but Rush once wanted people banned who look like this. I don't like these loud mouther shitbags either, but it's freedom.
(http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0Je5qddXWdF50EA6N6jzbkF;_ylu=X3oDMTA4NDgyNWN0BHNlYwNwcm9m/SIG=129kvocs9/EXP=1164488413/**http%3a//www.indymedia.org.uk/images/2003/10/279283.jpg)
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That's the problem, guys like Nordic want the thing banned everywhere, not just in the workplace.
In the UK, you can look like this and Intenseone wouldn't remember this but Rush once wanted people banned who look like this. I don't like these loud mouther shitbags either, but it's freedom.
(http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0Je5qddXWdF50EA6N6jzbkF;_ylu=X3oDMTA4NDgyNWN0BHNlYwNwcm9m/SIG=129kvocs9/EXP=1164488413/**http%3a//www.indymedia.org.uk/images/2003/10/279283.jpg)
Yep, gotta love all those freedoms Islamic women enjoy.... lol. Those sackcloths they're made to wear, are overt signs of slavery... why it doesn't disgust you that women, or anyone for that matter, should be the property of another is sad.
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You're totally missing the point and it has nothing to do with Nazi dyke bitches screaming shrill slogans... and it certainly isn't comparable in the slightest to women wanting to stay home and have children. If it's religious freedom you're advocating, then why can't arab men living in the UK take 15 wives if they want to? Why is it still against the law for those whose custom it is to circumcize their girls?
No you're missing the point... having 15 wives is illegal. Wearing a fucking veil is not unless they make it illegal. You may not like the goddamned thing but that's too fucking bad. Their right to be wrong is more important than your being "affronted" I'm advocating freedom, you are advocating conformity. You are advocating slavery.
Yep, gotta love all those freedoms Islamic women enjoy.... lol. Those sackcloths they're made to wear, are overt signs of slavery... why it doesn't disgust you that women, or anyone for that matter, should be the property of another is sad.
Up yours... You obviously can't fucking read because I SAID I DON'T AGREE WITH ISLAM OR THE FUCKING VEILS... again, They need to leave by choice, not by edict. If it's not hurting you, that's just the fuckin bullet you have to bite for freedom you commie bitch.
Deedee, maybe next time you can use the standard repuke line and say some shit like, "if you let them do one thing, they'll be marrying their dogs next and you don't want people marrying their dogs do you" ::)
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3 posts in a row?
You my friend, are one sad excuse for a human existance.
End it...
End it...
End it...
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No you're missing the point... having 15 wives is illegal. Wearing a fucking veil is not unless they make it illegal. You may not like the goddamned thing but that's too fucking bad. Their right to be wrong is more important than your being "affronted" I'm advocating freedom, you are advocating conformity. You are advocating slavery.
Up yours... You obviously can't fucking read because I SAID I DON'T AGREE WITH ISLAM OR THE FUCKING VEILS... again, They need to leave by choice, not by edict. If it's not hurting you, that's just the fuckin bullet you have to bite for freedom you commie bitch.
Deedee, maybe next time you can use the standard repuke line and say some shit like, "if you let them do one thing, they'll be marrying their dogs next and you don't want people marrying their dogs do you" ::)
I'm not a commie bitch... and I sure as hell am not a repuke. I'm about as liberal as they come, no matter what you call me.
Whose right to choose? The women wearing the veils? THEY aren't choosing to wear them...it's all too complicated to get into here on a message board, but you've obviously never spoken to anyone living under "a veil" of any kind. If you thought about the question in terms of basic human rights, how can you make an argument? And, if you ever get a chance or are so inclined, you might want to pick up The Swallows of Kabul by Yasmina Kahdra, or The Kite Runner by Khalid Hosseini, or even anything by Jhumpa Lahiri. It might open your eyes a little.
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I believe that if she is willing to remove the veil in front of children, then I don't see what the big deal is. I hardly doubt it is necessary for her to reveal her face infront of a male colleague, however, I believe that is a risk she runs if she wants to teach. A male colleague may walk into the room, ...in which case tough cookies, ...however, ...I can see it being viewed as similar to a male colleague walking into a female dressing room. It can lead to all sorts of complications and counter-productive situations.
I'm not for making the veil illegal. While I consider it repressive, ...I know for many women especially those living in Western societies, it IS a personal choice. To call it a form of slavery... nah, ...in countries where it is mandated yes it is a form of slavery and oppression of women, ...however those who choose it freely have the right to that choice.
Just as the western woman who adheres to the notion that it is inappropriate to ever correct a man, or to best him in any way... so too are they slaves to a different sort of historical oppression, ...and who are we to demand a woman not throw a game of chess in order to blast some outmoded myth. We see it all the time, our culture dictates that women play nice, suck up to, and defer to men...and many of us do it. How is that NOT another form of cultural repression of women? C'mon DeeDee, don't tell me you haven't been there? Defered to a man, let him walk away thinking he's so smart, ...while laughing under yourbreath the whole time? I say let each woman have her choice. Just like stay at home moms shouldn't have the right to dictate women not be allowed into the workforce, so to should career women not look down on those who choose otherwise for themselves, ...and we cannot dictate a woman reveal her body parts to strangers, even if we ourselfs consider those body parts to be benign.
And what I find most offensive about the article was the last sentence that Deisel thoughtfully chose to omit:
The Prime Minister said the headwear was a "mark of separation" which makes people of other ethnic backgrounds feel uncomfortable.
That's simply the height of arrogance imo. I'm sure many who wear the veil are uncomfortable if not downright scandalized by the Britney Spears & Baby Spice wannabees who run around with their buttocks hanging out, midriffs bared, and bellybutton rings, ...but who the F are they to say anything about it? Personal freedom without infringing on or imposing upon another is the ideal I endorse.
Who knows, over time she may have developed a level of comfort and familiarity with her colleagues to such an extent that having them see her face woould no longer be an issue, ...but I doubt we're gonna find that out now since she's gone.
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DeeDee, I understand the argument you are making, but much like the prisoner who has spent his entire life in jail and knows not how to function on the outside, ...the solution is the half-way house that gently exposes and brings them up to speed and empowers them to live a productive, self-sufficient, law-abiding life outside of jail.
Those who have just come off doing a 20 yr stretch to a society that looks nothing like what they knew when they first entered prison, are gonna have a recidivism rate off the chart. They don't know how to function, so they seek out the safe haven of the prison cell, and the prison society within which they are better equipped to function.
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The Prime Minister said the headwear was a "mark of separation" which makes people of other ethnic backgrounds feel uncomfortable.
Yea, fuck this... Stop and think what all this can be applied to... No fucking thanks... Keep it England.
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I'm not for making the veil illegal. While I consider it repressive, ...I know for many women especially those living in Western societies, it IS a personal choice. To call it a form of slavery... nah, ...in countries where it is mandated yes it is a form of slavery and oppression of women, ...however those who choose it freely have the right to that choice.
Just as the western woman who adheres to the notion that it is inappropriate to ever correct a man, or to best him in any way... so too are they slaves to a different sort of historical oppression, ...and who are we to demand a woman not throw a game of chess in order to blast some outmoded myth. We see it all the time, our culture dictates that women play nice, suck up to, and defer to men...and many of us do it. How is that NOT another form of cultural repression of women? C'mon DeeDee, don't tell me you haven't been there? Defered to a man, let him walk away thinking he's so smart, ...while laughing under yourbreath the whole time? I say let each woman have her choice. Just like stay at home moms shouldn't have the right to dictate women not be allowed into the workforce, so to should career women not look down on those who choose otherwise for themselves, ...and we cannot dictate a woman reveal her body parts to strangers, even if we ourselfs consider those body parts to be benign.
Yeah, Judi, I choose my arguments... sometimes I defer, sometimes I don't. That's my choice though, and I have it. I can also choose to wear pink or purple tomorrow. I don't have to live under some black shroud that hampers my every movement and disallows me from doing anything physical... and, If I feel like saying "fu*k you" I can, and have. These women don't have a choice. I always love it when people make the assumption that all women under the veil choose to be there. And really, to say, oh well, so they can leave then... honestly, when you have no education, are cut off from the mainstream of society, have no means of economic survival... what choice do you have there either? Just look at some of the mormon sects in Utah. How many escapees/women who have been interviewed said it took them years to leave, simply because they couldn't imagine living cut off from their only sense of community. And quite frankly, I think you say what you say from the comfort of your Toronto living room where, when you see the odd burka walking in the street below, you feel magnanimous to the anomoly. Try walking around streets where your way of life is an anomoly, and YOU are the one who is disdained... and I'm not talking about Morrocco either.
ps I wrote this before your last response, but I find your last post naive too.
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Hear hear
someone tell my why this lady is dressed like a haz mat worker
Cheers
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Nah, bro. This shit is getting out of hand. If the school has a rule that forbids the wearing of burkas then she has to comply. And I fail to see how any rational person can say this infringes upon her civil rights.
I'm a libertarian and all, but I don't like being for someone's rights at the expense of others. This bitch shouldn't be going around like Darth Vader, soon she'll demand a red glow dager from a Sikh to can be a Sith Master. ::)
These people purposely don't want to integrate.
I can't stop thinking about this post... :P I gotta call bullshit... The Sith Lord thing is cool as shit. Employers should waiver chics like this if they carry a red glowing double bladed lightsaber.
Cloaked worker: swooshhhhhh mmmvvvvvvvvvvv vvvvvvvvvvv swhoosssssssss vermmmmm zzzzzzzz vvvvvvvvvommmmm... Can I take your order?
Customer: ah.... yea I'll have a number 3 super sized please......with a.... cherry pie....... :-\
Yes, I have to see this before I die ;D
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Yeah, Judi, I choose my arguments... sometimes I defer, sometimes I don't. That's my choice though, and I have it. I can also choose to wear pink or purple tomorrow. I don't have to live under some black shroud that hampers my every movement and disallows me from doing anything physical... and, If I feel like saying "fu*k you" I can, and have. These women don't have a choice. I always love it when people make the assumption that all women under the veil choose to be there. And really, to say, oh well, so they can leave then... honestly, when you have no education, are cut off from the mainstream of society, have no means of economic survival... what choice do you have there either? Just look at some of the mormon sects in Utah. How many escapees/women who have been interviewed said it took them years to leave, simply because they couldn't imagine living cut off from their only sense of community. And quite frankly, I think you say what you say from the comfort of your Toronto living room where, when you see the odd burka walking in the street below, you feel magnanimous to the anomoly. Try walking around streets where your way of life is an anomoly, and YOU are the one who is disdained... and I'm not talking about Morrocco either.
ps I wrote this before your last response, but I find your last post naive too.
You CAN'T force people away from an ideology. The best you're going to be able to do is lead by example and voice your opinion, but not force or demand. People will move away from bad toward good naturally... No you can't save everybody and you never will. If you think you're going to force this you're dead fucking wrong, you will all just empower it. Virtually every suppressed ideology receives empowerment from its opposition. You all actually empower the radicals with this shit thinking...
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Try walking around streets where your way of life is an anomoly, and YOU are the one who is disdained... and I'm not talking about Morrocco either.
{LOL} Actually DeeDee, I've been there. I started having dreams about the apartment building we lived in shortly after arriving in Canada when I was 5. I found this significant because I used to have recurrent dreams about this place back i jamiaca at age 3 & 4, prior to even moving to Canada, ...and here it was 1995, and I was starting to dream about this place again. While downtown, the building kept calling out to me, and since I couldn't understand why after so many years it would be so prominent in my thoughts, ...so instead of trying to decipher it, ...I decided to just go back there and visit and maybe the significance would come to me. It was a very hot summer day, and I happened to be dressed for the weather. I arrived at the building, and got no flashes of brilliance, wisdom or clairvoyance, ...so I thought ...let me go up in the elevator to the floor I used to live on, stand out front of the door, and see if something comes to me. The up elevator arrives and the doors open, and I stood facing a Muslim man, and his family. Every single one of them was wearing a burka except him, and his little son who appeared to be about 3 or 4. The 3 other women all were covered in head to toe black. All I could see were the eyes. I didn't know which was the wife, and which were the daughters or if they were all his daughters. All I knew was that they were female, ...and I swear the whole lot of them looked like they were about to have a heart attack. I was also wearing an incredibly sexy outfit ... a roussed micro mini, with come fvck me pumps, and a long matching rectangle scarf knotted strategically to make a bra, ...there was ALOT of exposed skin... ALOT.
I felt bad for them, but i didn't feel ashamed. I looked damned good, not sleazy in any way but GOOD!
I don't know whether the guy was thinking 'what kind of a country is this that women can parade around in public like this. Or if the women were thinking the same, ...or if they were thinking if only they could be so free and so confident, ... or if they were thinking 'she must be a prostitute dressed like that' {LOL}... I don't know, but no one said anything to me about my attire, I got no disdainful looks, and I said nothing to them about theirs. I got the distinct impression, they were far more uncomfortable than I was, and my discomfort stemmed only knowing I'd shocked them so badly. I got over it in about 3 seconds... them, ...I don't know, but I do think I made a lasting impression. ;D
ps I wrote this before your last response, but I find your last post naive too.
That's because you think I'm both naive AND dumb. :) I know this 'cause you told me before ;) :-*
I could be wrong, but I'm getting the impression that you're so passionate about this topic that you're allowing other topics to enter into your argument. We're talking about a teacher in Britain who wants to wear the veil, not Mormons in Utah. You talk about escapees taking years to feel comfortable enough to escape. How many in western society feel that way about Catholicism, and fundamentalist evangelical christianity. It's the same with the domestically abused... they too require time to develop courage, ...and I don't think the answer is "SHOCK THERAPY". Again, I liken it to a woman with North American sensibilities being forced to go topless while on the beaches of France. I don't think it's right, and to force someone like that can indeed be traumatic. I'm not referring to women living in the middle east. We're talking about women in western countries. I say we should cease our open & covert hostility towards them, and they will develop the comfort level necessary to step outside of the veil. Just because someone else's 'emancipation' isn't proceeding along a time-table of our choosing, doesn't mean we can achieve our desired outcome by forcing the issue. The desire has to come from them.
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I can't stop thinking about this post... :P I gotta call bullshit... The Sith Lord thing is cool as shit. Employers should waiver chics like this if they carry a red glowing double bladed lightsaber.
Cloaked worker: swooshhhhhh mmmvvvvvvvvvvv vvvvvvvvvvv swhoosssssssss vermmmmm zzzzzzzz vvvvvvvvvommmmm... Can I take your order?
Customer: ah.... yea I'll have a number 3 super sized please......with a.... cherry pie....... :-\
Yes, I have to see this before I die ;D
Osama is the emperor. Instead of dark side powerz he's got an ak. ;D
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That's because you think I'm both naive AND dumb. :) I know this 'cause you told me before ;) :-*
I could be wrong, but I'm getting the impression that you're so passionate about this topic that you're allowing other topics to enter into your argument. We're talking about a teacher in Britain who wants to wear the veil, not Mormons in Utah. You talk about escapees taking years to feel comfortable enough to escape. How many in western society feel that way about Catholicism, and fundamentalist evangelical christianity. It's the same with the domestically abused... they too require time to develop courage, ...and I don't think the answer is "SHOCK THERAPY". Again, I liken it to a woman with North American sensibilities being forced to go topless while on the beaches of France. I don't think it's right, and to force someone like that can indeed be traumatic. I'm not referring to women living in the middle east. We're talking about women in western countries. I say we should cease our open & covert hostility towards them, and they will develop the comfort level necessary to step outside of the veil. Just because someone else's 'emancipation' isn't proceeding along a time-table of our choosing, doesn't mean we can achieve our desired outcome by forcing the issue. The desire has to come from them.
I most certainly do NOT think you are dumb. In fact, I think you are highly intelligent. >:(
You're right, I am passionate about this subject for a number of reasons. However, in an attempt to stay on topic ;) without being called a Nazi bitch... I find it presumptuous for North Americans to have an opinion on what's going on in Europe because we don't face the same issue of scale. You and I can walk down the street, and we might see the odd burkas walking around... and speaking for myself, while it hurts and saddens me a little to look at them, my tude has always been, "whatever," not my business.
However, in the last three or fours years I've spent at least a week a month in cities like Paris, London, Brussells... and have seen things that make my toes curl. (btw, the French tried to institute some program a few years ago, to help these women integrate better, but it didnt work. The repressive attitudes, the isolation these women feel, their mistrust, resulted in an abject failure.) There's a big difference between seeing "a few" in a big crowd of westernized peoples, and suddenly finding yourself to be the minority, where you might feel your own free, secular existence is threatened. I don't know if your opinion would be what it is, if the norm were examples such as finding yourself at a cafe, next to a table with the man rudely barking out orders to the burka-women who run like dogs to fulfill his wishes, then having the 19-year-old waiter lean down next to you and ask how easy it is for a Parisien to gtf out and come to Quebec. These things happen all the time... men with whistles summoning their errant wives, ten men standing around, straining to catch a glimpse at your legs, but at the same time glaring at you because you're a westernized POS woman in a short skirt who should be flogged, blah, blah, blah... it goes on and on. Many Europeans are tired of it, they feel threatened by this repressive culture, and it's becoming more and more difficult to accommodate the enormous influx of immigrants who don't want to assimilate.
Just as an aside, I had an opportunity to talk to some burka-women and they tried to tell me of all the benefits to wearing one. The big one apparently is being able to go out without washing your face, and wearing skanky sweats underneath. I asked them what interesting places they go to, dressed like that. The answer was pretty much "nowhere." Because, unless accompanied by a male, or going to the market and straight home, that's exactly where they go. Those were the chirpy ones. I've met others who seemed so sad, had dead eyes, no personality. I also think many Europeans are aware of this other issue that accompanies the subjugation of human beings, and that's all a part of it too.
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I most certainly do NOT think you are dumb. In fact, I think you are highly intelligent. >:(
You're right, I am passionate about this subject for a number of reasons. However, in an attempt to stay on topic ;) without being called a Nazi bitch... I find it presumptuous for North Americans to have an opinion on what's going on in Europe because we don't face the same issue of scale. You and I can walk down the street, and we might see the odd burkas walking around... and speaking for myself, while it hurts and saddens me a little to look at them, my tude has always been, "whatever," not my business.
However, in the last three or fours years I've spent at least a week a month in cities like Paris, London, Brussells... and have seen things that make my toes curl. (btw, the French tried to institute some program a few years ago, to help these women integrate better, but it didnt work. The repressive attitudes, the isolation these women feel, their mistrust, resulted in an abject failure.) There's a big difference between seeing "a few" in a big crowd of westernized peoples, and suddenly finding yourself to be the minority, where you might feel your own free, secular existence is threatened. I don't know if your opinion would be what it is, if the norm were examples such as finding yourself at a cafe, next to a table with the man rudely barking out orders to the burka-women who run like dogs to fulfill his wishes, then having the 19-year-old waiter lean down next to you and ask how easy it is for a Parisien to gtf out and come to Quebec. These things happen all the time... men with whistles summoning their errant wives, ten men standing around, straining to catch a glimpse at your legs, but at the same time glaring at you because you're a westernized POS woman in a short skirt who should be flogged, blah, blah, blah... it goes on and on. Many Europeans are tired of it, they feel threatened by this repressive culture, and it's becoming more and more difficult to accommodate the enormous influx of immigrants who don't want to assimilate.
Just as an aside, I had an opportunity to talk to some burka-women and they tried to tell me of all the benefits to wearing one. The big one apparently is being able to go out without washing your face, and wearing skanky sweats underneath. I asked them what interesting places they go to, dressed like that. The answer was pretty much "nowhere." Because, unless accompanied by a male, or going to the market and straight home, that's exactly where they go. Those were the chirpy ones. I've met others who seemed so sad, had dead eyes, no personality. I also think many Europeans are aware of this other issue that accompanies the subjugation of human beings, and that's all a part of it too.
I'm by no means an expert on the subject, but from how it was explained to me in the world religions class I took; The reasoning behind burka's and veils has just as much to do with the subjugation of women as with their protection and reverence.
First you have to forget your secular Westernized mentality, and think of women as essentially really valuable property.
Second, you love your womEn so much you don't want anything bad to happen to them, and if they were to entice a man with their looks in public it most certainly would. Its such a certainty that, in fact, it would essentially be their own fault.
Lastly, they are so special to you that only you should see them uncovered.
The veil is not worn directly to keep women oppressed, rather it is worn to benefit them from a culture of oppression.
Now to be fair, there is something vaguely arrogant about imposing Western standards on their fuct up way of life, but at the same time I am a firm believer of the When in Rome policy.
This could mean that when in Europe they should act like humans beings and "unveil"
Or it could mean you should not apply your melting-potish/less socialistic North American perspective to the (spinless) process of European naturalization :D
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First you have to forget your secular Westernized mentality, and think of women as essentially really valuable property.
Second, you love your womEn so much you don't want anything bad to happen to them, and if they were to entice a man with their looks in public it most certainly would. Its such a certainty that, in fact, it would essentially be their own fault.
I think most people are aware of that. In tribal cultures, male lineage is the priority, and any business opportunities, social status, wealth, hinges on keeping the male family tree intact... since that makes women the vessels of future wealth, you wouldn't want the seed of hot and sexy, but socially inferior, Mohammed from the town over impregnating your women and diminishing the family's standing, etc...
Or it could mean you should not apply your melting-potish/less socialistic North American perspective to the (spinless) process of European naturalization
Were you referring to my comments, Sandy? I was trying to give some rationale as to why some European countries are adopting stricter measures. I presume part of it is also to discourage fundamentalists from immigrating.
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I haven't read this thread, but will. so therefore sorry for posting. sorry deedee, you canadians and americans would not understand !
(Remember I emigrated to Canada from England in the 70's as a very young child and had to travel to Canada House in Trafalgar Square to do a "citizen test". We had to name the five great lakes and a few other things, then they ticked off the boxes on the form and we were allowed in.
My father was an up and coming (soon to be world renowned, crystal engineer, by the way).
In those days they didn't let anyone into Canada. I hear it's still the same. especially BC.
Anyways, Engand has a completely different policy and has to allow all the commonwealth.
Makes sense to me, after all the owning of the world.
Trouble is, it's only a little tiny island.
xl
we're okay
with love
etc.
I'll discuss this hijab mess later if I may. My best mate is Muslim and I still don't understand.
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It would be great news only you just know that she'll get a massive compo payment for this infringement of her 'civil rights'
(http://i15.tinypic.com/2akahs0.gif)
'Veil Row' Teacher Sacked
Updated: 11:07, Friday November 24, 2006
A Muslim teaching assistant who was suspended for refusing to take off her veil in class has been sacked by the school, Sky sources say.
Aishah Azmi, 24, had lost her case for discrimination and harrassment at an employment tribunal last month.
But the tribunal found that she had been victimised by the school in Dewsbury, West Yorkshire and awarded her £1,000 for "injury to feelings".
Headfield Church of England Junior school had given her permission to wear the veil in corridors and the staff room but told to take it off when in class.
She was suspended on full pay earlier this year by Kirklees Council.
Mrs Azmi said she was willing to remove her veil in front of children - but not when male colleagues were present.
Her case sparked a national debate on multiculturalism in Britain.
More follows...
http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1241872,00.html
She got sacked, she lost her job, which is as it should be.
<She also used your tax money for the legal case>
go figure.
This little England is a multicultural mess and I love it (since I'm half something I don't know). I'd actually like to go out and buy one of those outfits. Then I could go out on the streets without anyone messing with me.
Nowadays it's the whites wot get beaten up.
I figure it's retribution but i'll have to move to LA (and take a valium) or get over it.
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When in Rome
okay let's all go there then
xL
ps: There seems to be two kinds of completely covered up Muslim ladies in London: the first are the older ones, who were repressed by their men. The second lot are the new young radical ones who have misread the right or wrong passages. ><>>My theory only.
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I most certainly do NOT think you are dumb. In fact, I think you are highly intelligent. >:(
You're right, I am passionate about this subject for a number of reasons. However, in an attempt to stay on topic ;) without being called a Nazi bitch... I find it presumptuous for North Americans to have an opinion on what's going on in Europe because we don't face the same issue of scale. You and I can walk down the street, and we might see the odd burkas walking around... and speaking for myself, while it hurts and saddens me a little to look at them, my tude has always been, "whatever," not my business.
However, in the last three or fours years I've spent at least a week a month in cities like Paris, London, Brussells... and have seen things that make my toes curl. (btw, the French tried to institute some program a few years ago, to help these women integrate better, but it didnt work. The repressive attitudes, the isolation these women feel, their mistrust, resulted in an abject failure.) There's a big difference between seeing "a few" in a big crowd of westernized peoples, and suddenly finding yourself to be the minority, where you might feel your own free, secular existence is threatened. I don't know if your opinion would be what it is, if the norm were examples such as finding yourself at a cafe, next to a table with the man rudely barking out orders to the burka-women who run like dogs to fulfill his wishes, then having the 19-year-old waiter lean down next to you and ask how easy it is for a Parisien to gtf out and come to Quebec. These things happen all the time... men with whistles summoning their errant wives, ten men standing around, straining to catch a glimpse at your legs, but at the same time glaring at you because you're a westernized POS woman in a short skirt who should be flogged, blah, blah, blah... it goes on and on. Many Europeans are tired of it, they feel threatened by this repressive culture, and it's becoming more and more difficult to accommodate the enormous influx of immigrants who don't want to assimilate.
Just as an aside, I had an opportunity to talk to some burka-women and they tried to tell me of all the benefits to wearing one. The big one apparently is being able to go out without washing your face, and wearing skanky sweats underneath. I asked them what interesting places they go to, dressed like that. The answer was pretty much "nowhere." Because, unless accompanied by a male, or going to the market and straight home, that's exactly where they go. Those were the chirpy ones. I've met others who seemed so sad, had dead eyes, no personality. I also think many Europeans are aware of this other issue that accompanies the subjugation of human beings, and that's all a part of it too.
oh thanks judi (again).
you're making me emotional. It upsets me so much, but hopefully it will be okay.
xL
ps: my fully covered muslim girlfriend tells me they only wear the best sexy underwear!!!
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sorry, that's a jag quote.
>>><any Moslem ladies here that want to set us straight? I'd love to understand the black garb but dare not ask.
xL
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oh thanks judi (again).
you're making me emotional. It upsets me so much, but hopefully it will be okay.
xL
ps: my fully covered muslim girlfriend tells me they only wear the best sexy underwear!!!
Linda, you quoted the wrong post... that was mine, lol. I've heard about the supposed sexy panties too. I've also been told by a muslim woman that NA women are screwed up because they dress up to go out, and are slobs at home with their men, whereas these ladies do the opposite, thus keeping their men happy. ;)
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I think most people are aware of that.
I dont think so, I think most people just see it as a dumb foreign thing or a way to make women subservient. Both those are true, but there is more...
In tribal cultures, male lineage is the priority, and any business opportunities, social status, wealth, hinges on keeping the male family tree intact... since that makes women the vessels of future wealth, you wouldn't want the seed of hot and sexy, but socially inferior, Mohammed from the town over impregnating your women and diminishing the family's standing, etc...
Well said :)
Were you referring to my comments, Sandy? I was trying to give some rationale as to why some European countries are adopting stricter measures. I presume part of it is also to discourage fundamentalists from immigrating.
I was half kidding, though Europe doesnt seem as comfortable as the US and even Canada with the assimilation process. Good to hear they are wising up.
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Well said :)
I thought you might approve of my little summary. :)
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Indeed I do; I enjoy the way your mind works ;)
Adding to what you wrote, on a more primordial level (and taking into account polygamy) you can see this system would work to pass on the characteristics of the upper crust of society, or alpha males if you will.
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I wanna know...is she hot?
Seriously, was the the veil and Bhurka (sp) instituted by the Turks 1,000 yrs ago, in an effort to break up the family unit.
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I'm by no means an expert on the subject, but from how it was explained to me in the world religions class I took; The reasoning behind burka's and veils has just as much to do with the subjugation of women as with their protection and reverence.
First you have to forget your secular Westernized mentality, and think of women as essentially really valuable property.
Second, you love your womEn so much you don't want anything bad to happen to them, and if they were to entice a man with their looks in public it most certainly would. Its such a certainty that, in fact, it would essentially be their own fault.
Lastly, they are so special to you that only you should see them uncovered.
The veil is not worn directly to keep women oppressed, rather it is worn to benefit them from a culture of oppression.
Now to be fair, there is something vaguely arrogant about imposing Western standards on their fuct up way of life, but at the same time I am a firm believer of the When in Rome policy.
This could mean that when in Europe they should act like humans beings and "unveil"
Or it could mean you should not apply your melting-potish/less socialistic North American perspective to the (spinless) process of European naturalization :D
That's a good explaination Al-Gebra. It allows any woman who has been constantly subjected to unwanted attention, or suffered through the hell of dealing with jealous & easily intimidated boyfriends to understand why some women would freely choose it. One of the 10 commandments is not to covet your neighbours wife. How can you covet what you cannot see? Granted, this archaic approach does tend to absolve an individual of personal responsibility.
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The following is an article I read earlier. I think it provides an interesting perspective.
European minorities torn between worlds
By JAMEY KEATEN and PALMA BENCZENLEITNER, Associated Press Writers
Sat Nov 25, 11:35 AM ET
PARIS - Nacera Berrouba, a young Algerian in Paris, says she couldn't get the job she dreamed of until she dyed her hair blond.
Karima Ramani, who calls herself "addicted to freedom," says the Dutch love her hip black jeans and bright red nails but can't accept her Moroccan mind.
Straight-A student Gokboru Ozturk was born in Germany and waved the German flag during last summer's soccer World Cup tournament, but wants to be buried in Turkey because "as much as I feel German, I cannot be buried here." Meanwhile, his mother jokes he should change his name to Schmidt to boost his job prospects.
As Europe goes through a wrenching debate over integrating immigrant populations — and at a deeper level about what it means to be European in a globalized age — the children of those immigrants also find themselves grappling with issues of identity in an environment where tensions are complicated by the scarcity of jobs and distorted by the fear of terrorism.
The wave of riots that engulfed impoverished, largely Muslim French suburbs around this time last year awakened many people to the reality that something was fundamentally broken in one prominent European model of assimilation.
Terror attacks in Madrid and London, the slaying of filmmaker Theo van Gogh in Amsterdam, menacing protests over cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad — a series of crises since Sept. 11, 2001, involving young homegrown Muslims has given urgency to the debate on integration.
The effort to assimilate the younger generation and separate it from the terrorist minority in its midst is one of Europe's biggest 21st century challenges. But how deep and widespread is the disaffection? How do minority youths cope with the sometimes conflicting expectations of society and family? What safety valves kick in when the stresses become too intense?
Interviews with more than four dozen minority youths in six European capitals — Paris, Berlin, London, Amsterdam, Madrid and Rome — present a multifaceted picture of dynamic young people dreaming of success and love, and finding ingenious ways to cope with the double lives many feel they are leading.
There is one recurrent theme: A sense of "otherness."
"I am a stranger in Turkey and also in Germany," said Ozturk, an 18-year-old living in Berlin. "I am trapped in a hole in between two cultures."
Ramani, the "freedom addict," put it bluntly: "Sometimes I feel like ripping myself apart."
Many of the tensions spring from family life — when the tight-knit network brought from their ancestral homelands conflicts with the looser family structures of the West.
Hema Bhatt, the 21-year-old daughter of a Hindu priest, is amazed at how wildly those structures can differ.
"I come from quite a large family," said Bhatt, who grew up in Manchester, England, and studies in London. "My aunt and uncle are seen like my mum and dad, and my cousins are brothers and sisters. I remember at school, friends who were not Asian found that type of relationship weird. In high school, I remember my friend turned 16 and said she was going to start paying her mum and dad rent. I found that really weird."
Many youths said that deep down their strongest attachments were to their family homeland.
Amira Tellissi, a 21-year-old Tunisian university student, grew up in the countryside outside Rome where her mother works at a riding stable. She is thinking about applying for Italian citizenship, has never mastered reading and writing Arabic, and says that if she ever left Italy she would miss mozzarella cheese and the subway.
But her heart is in Tunisia.
In Italy, "I can explain my thoughts; in Tunisia I can explain my feelings. Here I have friends; there I have brothers," she said.
"We don't have the same perspectives. They don't think of marriage, they live day by day," she said. "Westerners want to live their lives, have fun. I see having a family like something more immediate."
Mohammed Mazahaf, a 23-year-old Moroccan student who runs a youth center in Amsterdam, feels deep discomfort with Europe's abundance of choice.
"I don't want the freedom of Europe — to drink, tell my sister to go out and have free sex before marriage. I want to have rules," he said. "I accept the rules of democracy, but I'm living the rules of Islam."
One Muslim Dutchman, Mohammed Bouyeri, had a warped interpretation of Islam's rules: Angered by Van Gogh's criticism of his faith, he murdered the filmmaker in a busy Amsterdam street, slitting his throat and leaving a letter threatening jihad, or holy war.
Most young Muslims may have no connection with that kind of extremism, but they often have strict views on Islam and have grown up more devout than their parents, perhaps rebelling against the West's unkept promise of equal opportunity.
Others are completely at home in Western culture.
"I consider myself a coconut: brown on the outside, and white on the inside," said Shereen Sally, a 19-year-old university student from Greenhithe, southeast of London, whose parents are Sri Lankan. "I never have been typically Asian."
With a Catholic mother and Muslim father, Sally navigates her cultures with agility. "I have been baptized and had Holy Communion, but I do Ramadan as well," she said.
Still, she says, most of her friends are South Asian like her.
"I used to think it was bad the way Asians segregated themselves but coming to university has opened my eyes. You go to your own kind because you feel comfortable with them," she said.
Ramani, 20, has platinum blond curly hair, big silver earrings, and a revealingly tight top. She smokes, dates a Moroccan man and frequents discos.
And yet she expresses an almost painful longing for her family's Islamic traditions, a sense that life in the West has deprived her of something more spiritual.
"I wish I had been born into a strict family of Muslims who made me wear the scarf and had a father who took me to the mosque once a week," she said. "I'm jealous of girls who have that."
Ramani's friend Halima Sakkali, 21, is more conservative, and considers herself more of "a real Muslim." Sakkali considers herself well integrated, but at times feels pressure to hide her religious identity in a Dutch society that is increasingly adamant about assimilation.
"I do my best to be Dutch," she said. "I say I just have another religion, but they don't accept it. They keep saying it's freedom, and you can choose what you choose. ... They don't let me wear a scarf."
"If they didn't look at me as a terrorist I'd wear one," she said.
Indeed, Europe's soul-searching runs from discussions about how to change mind-sets to the question of what Muslims should be allowed to wear or eat. After 20 years of eagerly promoting multiculturalism, some prominent Europeans have swung the other way.
Former British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw recently created a stir when he said he wants Muslim women to abandon their veils — a viewpoint that was backed by Prime Minister Tony Blair. The Dutch government announced plans this month for a law banning the all-encompassing burqa.
And a debate has erupted in Holland over Islamic halal meat after a major supermarket chain introduced it in their stores. Animal rights activists complained the animals are slaughtered inhumanely.
Perceptions that Muslim Europeans are halfhearted in condemning terrorism — or even try to justify it — have swung much of public opinion against the Islamic minority and caused people to question whether its values are compatible with the West's. The fact most of the perpetrators of last year's London transit attacks were homegrown Muslims has fueled the backlash against cultural tolerance.
Many views once limited to the far-right have become mainstream. In the Netherlands, a strict new immigration law requires people seeking citizenship to undergo assimilation training and pass a test on Dutch culture and language. In France, Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy, the center-right's leading presidential candidate, seemed to echo the extreme-right National Front's love-it-or-leave-it rhetoric last month when he declared his country "doesn't want those who don't love it."
A Dutch poll released in June found that half of Dutch people dislike Muslims, though the numbers shrink sharply when the questions get specific — only 10 percent consider themselves smarter than immigrants, while 17 percent said immigrants tend to be criminals, rude and lazy.
Experiences of racism were widespread among the young people interviewed for this story — and the strategy of most is stoicism.
"It doesn't happen frequently, but when it does, I shut my mouth — I don't answer back," said Shen Li, a 24-year-old Chinese law student in Madrid who arrived in Spain a decade ago.
Meantime, many minority youths complain of discrimination in the job market. Berrouba, 26, recalled being rejected for a hairstylist's job when she was 17.
"The owner said, 'I don't want to hire you, because we're looking for someone who doesn't look like a North African,'" she said. "He was very apologetic, upset, and asked me for a thousand pardons. But that's just the way it was."
When a bit older, she applied at a more luxurious hair salon.
"My hair was too long and looked too Arab, so I cut it and dyed it blond — and I got the job!" It was a new lease on life. "Even for nightclubs, I was able to get in everywhere," she said.
Ozturk said his job prospects are uncertain in Germany despite his excellent grades.
"My father wants me to go abroad, to America or England. He says I have a better chance if I'm an Oxford or a Harvard graduate," he said.
In France, an upcoming report from a newly created anti-discrimination agency says that for young jobseekers, "It's better to be named Alain than Mohamed." Other official reports in France have made the astonishing observation that some temporary jobs agencies classify white applicants as "BBR" — a French acronym for the Blue, White and Red colors of the national flag.
The fact that such policies are illegal, and that an anti-discrimination agency exists, demonstrates that France is taking at least some measures, as have other European countries.
In Germany, a law took effect in August outlawing discrimination based on gender, age and religious affiliation in the workplace.
Paris' elite Sciences Po political university is actively recruiting immigrant youths while Sarkozy, despite his hard-line stance on illegal immigration, has implemented a pilot affirmative-action program in the police force.
Across the European Union, several countries have been working to implement EU guidelines against discrimination.
Europeans say their societies are not a U.S.-style melting pot, and their citizenships are inherited and not easily acquired by naturalization. And most of the young people interviewed didn't seem keen on the melting-pot idea either, expressing a preference for marrying within their own ethnic background and religion.
Ozturk, a Muslim, recently broke up with a Catholic Peruvian girlfriend; he is now dating a Muslim Turk.
"I always thought it wouldn't matter what religion one has when you're in love, but ... I think that if I was married to a non-Turkish woman, we could have problems raising our kids," he said.
Many Muslims said the terror threat has put them under scrutiny they find stifling.
"When I'm asked what my ethnicity is on an application form, I say Egypt," said Ali el Hamamy, a 19-year-old student of Egyptian origin at London's City University. "Before, I used to say Arab. Arab now is a term used for terrorism. Egypt is a holiday destination."
___
Jamey Keaten reported from Paris and Palma Benczenleitner from Berlin. Contributing are AP correspondents Tariq Panja in London, Maria Sanminiatelli in Rome, Bruce Mutsvairo and Scheherezade Faramarzi in Amsterdam, and Mar Roman in Madrid
---end of article---
Deedee, do you suppose there is the possiblity that tensions are higher in Europe because of Europes history... whereas Canada's relatively easy assimilation process resulted from the fact that we are ALL minorities? I refuse to attribute it simply to "Canadians are just nicer & far more civilized" (even though we are) ;)
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WHOA... Sandy is Al-Gebra :(
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No, jag is just retarded ;D
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Why are there no (or very few) Arabic female athletes?
But as far as the subjagation goes. It is not a woman's fault that a man can't control himself. I like how people want to put the blame on others, because they can't accept responsibility and control themselves, and truly love and accept their women for what they are. Beautiful.
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and truly love and accept their women for what they are. Beautiful.
OMG thats so sweet :) :-*
FAGGOT
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The kids could not understand her at all.
Visually her face displayed nothing, this is very hard for kids and also important they understand expressions etc.
She did NOT WEAR THE VEIL TO THE INTERVIEW WHERE SHE WAS IN THE PRESENCE OF A MAN. So her defense that it is in case a man arrives is baseless.
What we have here is an opportunist who is simply after money, her Lawyers bill which the Great British public are footing will get to £250,000 cause she is taking all the way.
I just want her to realise how can she teach when the poor fuckers cannot understand her! she is as much use as a one legged guy at an ass kicking party!
ta ta
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Why are there no (or very few) Arabic female athletes?
Ever seen someone pole vault wearing a burka? ...me either. Although I once saw a YouTube video of a bunch of Iranian policewomen shinnying down a building, clad in burkas. I think it might have been graduation day at the female police adacemy. I hadn't laughed that hard in a very long time. :P
But as far as the subjagation goes. It is not a woman's fault that a man can't control himself. I like how people want to put the blame on others, because they can't accept responsibility and control themselves, and truly love and accept their women for what they are. Beautiful.
Parker, where have you been on the open talk for women's board? We welcome male perspectives like this,
...sides, someone's gotta keep miggly from getting a swelled head over there. ;D
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The kids could not understand her at all.
I just want her to realise how can she teach when the poor fuckers cannot understand her! she is as much use as a one legged guy at an ass kicking party!
ta ta
pssst - She said she's willing to take it off with the children
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The following is an article I read earlier. I think it provides an interesting perspective.
Deedee, do you suppose there is the possiblity that tensions are higher in Europe because of Europes history... whereas Canada's relatively easy assimilation process resulted from the fact that we are ALL minorities? I refuse to attribute it simply to "Canadians are just nicer & far more civilized" (even though we are) ;)
Having grown up in Quebec, with all of the English/French tensions, I'm not so sure about that. :) And maybe that's why I have less patience for some of the poor moi views expressed in the article you posted. But getting back to the burka question and tensions in Europa... here's another interesting perspective.
In public settings the full burqa should be banned in Western societies, of course. Its use assaults the equality of the sexes and more broadly the foundations of our public culture.
It's based on the idea that a woman's sexuality is so potent, tempting and potentially destructive that I, as a male, cannot be trusted even to see a woman's face. Nor can a woman thus be trusted to interact with men on an equal footing. These are grossly offensive concepts, not only personally but in a way that disrupts the most basic aspects of how our society functions. And on a one-to-one basis, it makes an unacceptable, one-sided demand upon unmasked men and women when they interact with ciphers in the public square.
There has to be at least some minimum level at which citizens and residents accommodate themselves to a shared public culture, if they want to participate and benefit from it. People who use and promote the burqa carry around a cultural package that even on its own merits is incompatible with Western society. They also will tend to be associated with styles of Islam more broadly hostile to the West on other fronts.
The West has every right to defend its character, including its hard-won principle of equality.
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Having grown up in Quebec, with all of the English/French tensions, I'm not so sure about that. :)
Well if you ever get nostalgic for those raucous separation debates, don't worry, ...I hear DuCeppe is on the job :D
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Well if you ever get nostalgic for those raucous separation debates, don't worry, ...I hear DuCeppe is on the job :D
I haven't been keeping up... not sure I want to know. :-\
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OMG thats so sweet :) :-*
FAGGOT
You are obvliously in need of some good dicking, Miss
Instead of concentrating on Reparations for blacks, why not find a big a black buck, have your significant other tape it, then sell it, and sen the proceeds to your favorite Black Charity.
'Tis the season ;)
Parker, where have you been on the open talk for women's board? We welcome male perspectives like this,
...sides, someone's gotta keep miggly from getting a swelled head over there. ;D
I saw the list one time and I wasn't on it... I thought ya had to be n the list...maybe my behaviour was un-becoming.