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Getbig Misc Discussion Boards => Religious Debates & Threads => Topic started by: loco on November 24, 2006, 12:00:00 PM
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Christians are not perfect, just forgiven. But truly believing in Jesus Christ will change a person and this should and will show. Christians should show that there is something different about them from the rest of the world. And this difference should be genuine and not superficial.
Jude 4
"For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord."
Matthew 7:21
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven"
Matthew 7:22-23
"Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'
Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'"
1 John 2:19
"They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us."
Matthew 7:13-14
"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.
But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."
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So if someone is still sinning they should believe harder ?
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Probably the most common reply I get when I ask a non or non-frequent church goer who considers themselves to be religious and a christian is that they really want to get to the afterlife and keep on living so to speak. (maybe they think they can sin a bit there too and still be accepted) :)
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horse shit.
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The following might be offensive to christians( I mean no harm). I am a muslim and I read the bible and I read the Quraan. According to my knowledge of the bible and christians of today i can honestly say that muslims are the true christians in todays time. For the simple reason, How many christians follow the bible?(They are told not eat the flesh of swines) How many follow the comandments?(The adulterer and the adulteres should be stoned to death).
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The following might be offensive to christians( I mean no harm). I am a muslim and I read the bible and I read the Quraan. According to my knowledge of the bible and christians of today i can honestly say that muslims are the true christians in todays time. For the simple reason, How many christians follow the bible?(They are told not eat the flesh of swines) How many follow the comandments?(The adulterer and the adulteres should be stoned to death).
Those are Old Testament laws that Christ set his believers free from.
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So before jebus came it was a sin to eat swine?
Now it is not, but only if your believe?
::)
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Purge_WTF
Did Jesus say that? You are not reading the bible. Jesus said "i have not come to change the law of the prophets but to fulfill". What do you understand by that statement? Let me tell you what the problem is. The almighty put us on this earth for a reason. to submit to HIS will. Islam and christianity are not far apart. There are a few difference, namely
1. Muslims don't believe Jesus was crucified. Internal evidence of the Bible proves it.
2. The divinity of Christ
3. We muslims dont beleive that he(Jesus) is the only begotten son of GOD. Begotten not made(I would like to know what this means). Begotten is an animal act and it belongs to the lower functions of SEX and the Almighty cannot be attributed with such Qualities.
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sandycoosworth
So before jebus came it was a sin to eat swine?
Now it is not, but only if your believe?
Beleive what????? That Christ died for your sins. This is the thing about Christians that i don't understand. Your bible clearly says"the son shall not bare the iniquity of the father. neither shall the father bare the iniquity of the son. Yet you believe totally something else. Jesus never asked anybody to believe that and then salvation is yours. This is something that was created by christians in the past 2000 years.
It is still a sin to eat the flesh of swine. According to my experience an every christian i have come across finds it difficult to abide by this law in particular(no harm to christians intended).
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A sin to eat pork huh?
Add another one to the list of bullshit sins
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OzmO
I take it you are not a christian
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The following might be offensive to christians( I mean no harm). I am a muslim and I read the bible and I read the Quraan. According to my knowledge of the bible and christians of today i can honestly say that muslims are the true christians in todays time. For the simple reason, How many christians follow the bible?(They are told not eat the flesh of swines) How many follow the comandments?(The adulterer and the adulteres should be stoned to death).
No offence taken, McKee. Eating pork a sin? You must be thinking of Judaism and not Christianity. This might be offensive to Muslims (I mean no harm), but you are saying that Muslims are the true Jew of today's time.
McKee,
When you read the Bible, did you miss this part? This is what Christians are told to do:
1 Corinthians 10:25
"Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience"
1 Corinthians 8:8
But food does not bring us near to God; we are no worse if we do not eat, and no better if we do.
Romans 14:2-3
One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables.
The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him.
Romans 14:17
For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit,
Acts 10:11-14
He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners.
It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles of the earth and birds of the air.
Then a voice told him, "Get up, Peter. Kill and eat."
"Surely not, Lord!" Peter replied. "I have never eaten anything impure or unclean."
The voice spoke to him a second time, "Do not call anything impure that God has made clean."
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Jesus never asked anybody to believe that and then salvation is yours.
But according to the bible He did:
Jesus said, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me" (John 14:6).
He also said, "God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. (John 3:16-18)
A sin to eat pork huh?
Add another one to the list of bullshit sins
Eating pork is not a sin but was part of Mosaic Law which applied to Jews. I'm not sure what the reason was, other than maybe a health issue, and/or a set-apart issue, but the Mosaic Law does not apply to gentiles (Christians would be considered gentiles).
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Hi Loco
You see this is the excitment about talks such as this. According to Christian beliefs Moses was the prophet of the Jews and Jesus?........ Well Jesus is also a Jew, so where does christianity come from?
Why I say this is the excitment? You see what you are doing now is quoting verses and verses and verses which means nothing at all. (What does all of those verses that you just quoted have to do with the price of EGGS?)
1 Corinthians 10:25
"Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience"
The verse that you quoted can pass on as a contridiction. Meaning when christians(this applies to jews as well) are told not to eat the flesh of a swine, which do you believe, refrain from eating swine or eat anything as you have quoted.
What do you in a case like this?
Answer this loco. Do you believe that Jesus is GOD?
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NO christian is worth the name if he can't clinch the deal with John 3:16
As STella mentioned. Can somebody please explain to me what it means when christians say the only begotten son. Begotten not made.
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Hi Loco
You see this is the excitment about talks such as this. According to Christian beliefs Moses was the prophet of the Jews and Jesus?........ Well Jesus is also a Jew, so where does christianity come from?
Jesus was a Jew
Jesus was/is the Messiah; the Christ
Jesus is the Christ
People that believe in Him are Christians
Meaning when christians(this applies to jews as well)
No, it doesn't.
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STella
Just to add on to what you have just said and you are correct
No muslim is a muslim if he does not believe that jesus is the Christ.
We are made to believe that he was one of the mightiest massengers of God
We Believe that gave life to the dead by God's permission and he healed those born blind and the leppers by God's permission. we are going together with Christians on that. We even honour his mother Marry. Infect there is a chapter in the Quraan called chapter Marry. The Quraan honours Marry even more then the Bible.
Did you know that?
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NO christian is worth the name if he can't clinch the deal with John 3:16
As STella mentioned. Can somebody please explain to me what it means when christians say the only begotten son. Begotten not made.
From C.S. Lewis:
"What God begets is God; just as what man begets is man. What God creates is not God; just as what man makes is not man. That is why men are not Sons of God in the sense that Christ is. They may be like God in certain ways, but they are not things of the same kind. They are more like statues or pictures of God."
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STella
Just to add on to what you have just said and you are correct
No muslim is a muslim if he does not believe that jesus is the Christ.
We are made to believe that he was one of the mightiest massengers of God
We Believe that gave life to the dead by God's permission and he healed those born blind and the leppers by God's permission. we are going together with Christians on that. We even honour his mother Marry. Infect there is a chapter in the Quraan called chapter Marry. The Quraan honours Marry even more then the Bible.
Did you know that?
I had no idea about the Mary info you stated. How do you "honour" her?
When you say that Muslims believe that Jesus is the Christ, what do you mean by "the Christ?" Muslims don't believe Jesus is God do they?
This is very interesting MCKEE. Thanks.
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sandycoosworth
So before jebus came it was a sin to eat swine?
Now it is not, but only if your believe?
Beleive what????? That Christ died for your sins. This is the thing about Christians that i don't understand. Your bible clearly says"the son shall not bare the iniquity of the father. neither shall the father bare the iniquity of the son. Yet you believe totally something else. Jesus never asked anybody to believe that and then salvation is yours. This is something that was created by christians in the past 2000 years.
It is still a sin to eat the flesh of swine. According to my experience an every christian i have come across finds it difficult to abide by this law in particular(no harm to christians intended).
Youre stupid, #1 for thinking I'm a christian #2 for thinking eating swine is a sin
Swine was a sin 3000 years ago because it was killing people in the desert who couldnt prepare it properly.
Do not have kids >:(
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where does christianity come from?
From Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour
what you are doing now is quoting verses and verses and verses which means nothing at all
Quoting the Bible means all to me. I quote verses to make it clear that what I believe does not come from myself or from teachings of men, but from the word of God. I believe the Bible is the inerrant word of God and the final authority in my life.
when christians(this applies to jews as well) are told not to eat the flesh of a swine, which do you believe, refrain from eating swine or eat anything as you have quoted.
What do you in a case like this?
When was I told not to eat swine? You were told not to eat it. Israel was told not to eat it, for a good reason I'm sure. I wasn't told not to eat it.
Answer this loco. Do you believe that Jesus is GOD?
Yes, of course Jesus is GOD. Jesus said that he is GOD. The Jews know that Jesus said that he is GOD.
John 10:30-33
"I and the Father are one."
Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?"
"We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."
John 14:8-9
Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."
Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
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No muslim is a muslim if he does not believe that jesus is the Christ.
We are made to believe that he was one of the mightiest massengers of God
We Believe that gave life to the dead by God's permission and he healed those born blind and the leppers by God's permission. we are going together with Christians on that. We even honour his mother Marry. Infect there is a chapter in the Quraan called chapter Marry. The Quraan honours Marry even more then the Bible.
Did you know that?
Yes, I knew this.
Muslims believe that Jesus:
1. Was born of a virgin, Mary
2. Was sent by GOD the Father
3. Performed many Miracles
4. Is in Heaven now
5. Is coming back soon
What sets Muslims apart from Christians is that, unlike Christians, Muslims believe that Jesus
1. Is not GOD, is not the son of GOD. Allah is the only GOD and Allah has no son. There is no Trinity.
2. Jesus did not die for our sins. Jesus did not die at all, but was taken up to Heaven alive like Enoch and Elijah
These last two are the most important to Christianity. Christians believe that Jesus is GOD and that he died for our sins and that he rose again. So Muslims are in no way the Christians of today's time, as McKee said earlier.
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Youre stupid, #1 for thinking I'm a christian #2 for thinking eating swine is a sin
Swine was a sin 3000 years ago because it was killing people in the desert who couldnt prepare it properly.
Do not have kids >:(
Actually, "swine" isn't any healthier today than it was 3,000 years ago. It may take a little longer to do damage, but it will help shorten your life. Read "The China Study." Excellent book.
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Eating pork is not a sin but was part of Mosaic Law which applied to Jews. I'm not sure what the reason was, other than maybe a health issue, and/or a set-apart issue, but the Mosaic Law does not apply to gentiles (Christians would be considered gentiles).
Does it say that in the bible some place? And if moses law applies only to jews why include it in the bible? And if you think about it, every thing talked about in the NT and OT all applied to jews.
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Does it say that in the bible some place? And if moses law applies only to jews why include it in the bible? And if you think about it, every thing talked about in the NT and OT all applied to jews.
I don't think the dietary stuff in Leviticus was part of the "old" law. I haven't read that part in a while, but I don't recall any verses specifically saying it was.
Part of the Bible is a story of history, so I don't see a problem with including things that happened in history, including old laws like animal sacrifice.
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John 10:30-33
"I and the Father are one."
Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?"
"We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."
Hi Loco
You know I have heard this many time "I and the Father are one." I have been asking the christian faith. What is the context of this and believe me I have'nt got an answer yet. Can you maybe answer. What is the context of that statement?
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Loco
Just to repeat myself. Begetting is a animal act. It belongs to the lower functions of sex. How in the world can you assosiate the all Mighty with a quality like that. You Muslims and Christians say the same thing(certain aspects) the only thing that differs is the terminology.e.g According to christiandum the bible is the word of God. We Muslims say it is not the word of God(but the word of God is in it e.g Deuteronomy 18:18
If it were the word of God how bout ezekiel chapter 23 about the hordum of those two sister. Would that also be the word of God.
The words of the Prohets are also in the bible so is the word of Historians.
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You know more than 700 times in the bible you here the statement. And the lord said unto Moses and Moses said unto the Lord. WORD OF GOD HUH? I dont think so.....
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Hi STella
Please have a look at the following verse should you get a chance. This is to answer your question about the honor of Marry mother of Jesus in the holy Quraan.
Chapter 3 verse 42
Behold the angel says 'o' Marry
Allah has chosen thee
Purified Thee
Chosen thee above the women of All nations
Thats just one I can give more should you need it
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I don't think the dietary stuff in Leviticus was part of the "old" law. I haven't read that part in a while, but I don't recall any verses specifically saying it was.
Maybe by "old law" we are referring to 2 different things? This is the Mosaic Law (I think):
Leviticus 11 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society
Leviticus 11
Clean and Unclean Food
1 The LORD said to Moses and Aaron, 2 "Say to the Israelites: 'Of all the animals that live on land, these are the ones you may eat: 3 You may eat any animal that has a split hoof completely divided and that chews the cud.
4 " 'There are some that only chew the cud or only have a split hoof, but you must not eat them. The camel, though it chews the cud, does not have a split hoof; it is ceremonially unclean for you. 5 The coney, [a] though it chews the cud, does not have a split hoof; it is unclean for you. 6 The rabbit, though it chews the cud, does not have a split hoof; it is unclean for you. 7 And the pig, though it has a split hoof completely divided, does not chew the cud; it is unclean for you. 8 You must not eat their meat or touch their carcasses; they are unclean for you.
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Stella, your moderation privileges should be removed from the religious debates forum, for you claim to be Christian, however the truth is yee are not:
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=109125.0
Ironic considering the title of this thread.
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Stella, your moderation privileges should be removed from the religious debates forum, for you claim to be Christian, however the truth is yee are not:
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=109125.0
Ironic considering the title of this thread.
;D
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;D
Your reactions to my criticisms gives me the impression you proclaim yourself Christian for selfish reasons.
E.g. you're a Christian because you want to go to heaven, not for the actual real messages of Christianity.
Unfotunately as a athiest I don't believe you'll goto hell, so it's depressing knowning your selfish ways on Earth will go unpunished :'(
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i saw some god squad laughing and patting each others asses out the front of a choich yesterday.
"heavens gonna be so dope"
I'm sure thats what one of em said
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Your reactions to my criticisms gives me the impression you proclaim yourself Christian for selfish reasons.
E.g. you're a Christian because you want to go to heaven, not for the actual real messages of Christianity.
Unfotunately as a athiest I don't believe you'll goto hell, so it's depressing knowning your selfish ways on Earth will go unpunished :'(
;D
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ah... I'm just messing w/you Nordic Superman. I'd actually prefer to drive a car, but I need to have either a truck or SUV.
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ah... I'm just messing w/you Nordic Superman. I'd actually prefer to drive a car, but I need to have either a truck or SUV.
If it's a nesseccity then God might let you off, otherwise prepare to meet my little friend:
(http://www.eyeofhorus.org.uk/images/photo/10tennant/series-02/09-satan/the-satan-pit-doctor-beast3.jpg)
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that made me think of that old, old movie that Tom Cruise was in....The Legend or something like that....
Also reminded me of this album cover (yes, I said album :-[ ):
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Maybe by "old law" we are referring to 2 different things? This is the Mosaic Law (I think):
Leviticus 11 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society
Leviticus 11
Clean and Unclean Food
1 The LORD said to Moses and Aaron, 2 "Say to the Israelites: 'Of all the animals that live on land, these are the ones you may eat: 3 You may eat any animal that has a split hoof completely divided and that chews the cud.
4 " 'There are some that only chew the cud or only have a split hoof, but you must not eat them. The camel, though it chews the cud, does not have a split hoof; it is ceremonially unclean for you. 5 The coney, [a] though it chews the cud, does not have a split hoof; it is unclean for you. 6 The rabbit, though it chews the cud, does not have a split hoof; it is unclean for you. 7 And the pig, though it has a split hoof completely divided, does not chew the cud; it is unclean for you. 8 You must not eat their meat or touch their carcasses; they are unclean for you.
These seem to be dietary guidelines instead of rituals that they had to perform as part of religious services, prayer, etc. The way I view those passages is they were probably required to follow these guidelines when they were given, but they are just guidelines today (i.e., not a sin). On the other hand, I think the studies discussed in T. Colin Campbell's "The China Study" show both the "clean" and "unclean" stuff referenced in those passages are unhealthy. At least if you're concerned about optimum health.
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Judge not lest ye be Judged.
I seriously break this all the time.
However , I think it applies here.
Jesus alone knows who will go to heaven.
Worrying whether other people will or won't go to heaven is counter productive and will limit your ability to comprehend God's work and his plan for you.
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Judge not lest ye be Judged.
I seriously break this all the time.
However , I think it applies here.
Jesus alone knows who will go to heaven.
Worrying whether other people will or won't go to heaven is counter productive and will limit your ability to comprehend God's work and his plan for you.
I'm not judging anybody. I simply quoted Jesus Christ's own words on the matter. I let him be the judge.
Matthew 7:21
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven"
Matthew 7:22-23
"Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'
Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'"
Matthew 7:13-14
"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.
But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."
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Loco
Just to repeat myself. Begetting is a animal act. It belongs to the lower functions of sex. How in the world can you assosiate the all Mighty with a quality like that. You Muslims and Christians say the same thing(certain aspects) the only thing that differs is the terminology.e.g According to christiandum the bible is the word of God. We Muslims say it is not the word of God(but the word of God is in it e.g Deuteronomy 18:18
If it were the word of God how bout ezekiel chapter 23 about the hordum of those two sister. Would that also be the word of God.
The words of the Prohets are also in the bible so is the word of Historians.
McKee, STella already answered this question for you. Did you miss it?
From C.S. Lewis:
"What God begets is God; just as what man begets is man. What God creates is not God; just as what man makes is not man. That is why men are not Sons of God in the sense that Christ is. They may be like God in certain ways, but they are not things of the same kind. They are more like statues or pictures of God."
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Hi Loco
You know I have heard this many time "I and the Father are one." I have been asking the christian faith. What is the context of this and believe me I have'nt got an answer yet. Can you maybe answer. What is the context of that statement?
Hi McKee! This is the context: The Jews were asking Jesus "Who are you? Are you the Christ(Messiah) or not? Tell us." So, Jesus told them that he is GOD. The Jews have never believed that their Messiah, whom they are still expecting, is GOD. They believe that their Messiah will be a mere man sent by GOD. Here is more of the story:
John 10
22Then came the Feast of Dedication at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23and Jesus was in the temple area walking in Solomon's Colonnade. 24The Jews gathered around him, saying, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ,[c] tell us plainly."
25Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[d]; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30I and the Father are one."
31Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, 32but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?"
33"We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."
I hope that this helps answer your question.
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"heavens gonna be so dope"
I'm sure thats what one of em said
;D
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I am overwhelmed by that. You see you have given the correct answer but your understanding of that is incorrect. You see when he says i and my father are one it simply means that we are one in faith(belief). You know Jesus goes out of his way to say "The miracles I do in my Father's name ", "29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all" How can he be God when he refers to his father who has all power.
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I am overwhelmed by that. You see you have given the correct answer but your understanding of that is incorrect. You see when he says i and my father are one it simply means that we are one in faith(belief). You know Jesus goes out of his way to say "The miracles I do in my Father's name ", "29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all" How can he be God when he refers to his father who has all power.
No, McKee. Jesus did not say that he and the Father are one ONLY in faith(belief). Who told you this? That's not in the scriptures. Jesus is saying that he and the Father are one GOD, that he and the Father are one and the same. Jesus is claiming to be GOD. Keep reading...
John 10:33
"We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."
John 14:8-9
Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."
Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
John 12:44-45
Then Jesus cried out, "When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. When he looks at me, he sees the one who sent me
Matthew 23:37
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing."
John 5:17-18
Jesus said to them, "My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working."
For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
John 8:57-58
"You are not yet fifty years old," the Jews said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!"
"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"
(EGOEIMI)=I AM God. Check it in Greek, from a reliable lexical source, not some English dictionary.
Looking back in the Old Testament
Exodus 3:14
God said to Moses, "I am who I am . This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.'"
McKee,
When you read the Bible you should remember reading that whenever an angel appeared to a man, and the man would kneel before the angel and worshiped the angel, the angel would always say something along the lines "Get up, do not worship me, for I am nothing but a servant just like you." But whenever people would kneel before Jesus and worshiped him, Jesus did not stop them. Instead Jesus allowed them to worship him. Likewise, when people called Jesus GOD, Jesus did not correct them or stop them.
John 20:28-29
Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"
Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
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Nobody distinctly knows what it totally means to be a caring christian because too many people prove that society is a vicious jungle where having power is what makes you stand out from other people that are not equal to the chosen citizens who are well connected by wealth.
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As I understand it, you have to believe in the immaculate conception in order to be a Christian.
If you don't buy into the concept of the virgin birth (and I certainly do not), then a Christian you will never be.
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Interesting..........
Could GOD then be unable to perform a miracle?
I think so.
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As I understand it, you have to believe in the immaculate conception in order to be a Christian.
If you don't buy into the concept of the virgin birth (and I certainly do not), then a Christian you will never be.
This is really interesting Tre. I've never really thought about it before. Here are some interesting comments I found from cbscottreport.blogspot.c om:
At September 22, 2006 7:37 AM, WTJeff said...
cb,
I think the key lies in much of what bob cleveland said. At the time of my salvation, the virgin birth wasn't even a thought, but as I grew in the faith, through the discernment of the Holy Spirit, I accepted the virgin birth as truth. 1 Cor. 2:14 says - "14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." The bigger question to me is this -- If one makes a profession of faith and then denies the Virgin Birth, is that person saved?" IMHO 1 Cor. 2:13 would indicate that they are not saved.
Great question, cb. Thanks.
Grace,
Jeff Parsons
At September 22, 2006 6:40 AM, brad reynolds said...
CB
Some argue that what is important is the virgin conception and not the virgin birth. However, that just begs the question concerning their belief in the integrity of Scripture (which certainly implies Barthian tendencies).
Nevertheless, in my opinion one cannot deny the virgin birth and be saved.
BR
At September 22, 2006 5:02 AM, Bob Cleveland said...
Wow. A question of unending ramifications.
We all banter around the thought of whether folks are "really saved". They walk the aisle and say the prayer and then a good portion of them never go anywhere and show no change, and many simply fall away. And we worry about making that fit into "once saved, always saved".
First question: when, exactly, do you become "saved"? If it's when you trust Jesus, conforming to all the right original-meaning words, that can be done without even knowing about, much less accepting, the virgin birth. And I think that's mostly the way it really happens.
So .. what's supposed to happen then? For me, it's that you become a new spiritual being. You're no longer a "natural man" who cannot receive the "things of the Spirit". Hence you now have "Spiritual discernment". I think one of the works of the Holy Spirit would be discernment of the truth of the virgin birth.
Perhaps belief in the virgin birth is not a requirement for salvation. Perhaps it is actually a litmus test as to whether you really were saved when you walked the aisle & said the words.
At September 22, 2006 8:23 AM, tim rogers said...
Brother CB,
Was my believing the Virgin Birth to be true necessary for my Salvation? If I believed that only parts of the Bible are true, then no! Because then you can pick and choose which parts you can believe and when you want to believe them. I remember hearing preachers when I was growing up in a church that was conservative, but did not know they had moderate preachers. Sometimes you would hear the preacher say after reading the Scripture, "Let this become the Word of God to you." Which says that it is not the Word of God until it becomes the Word of God for me. Therefore, I get to choose from the Bible what I believe is true and what is not.
If I believe all of the Bible is true, then it quite naturally means that I must believe in the Virgin Birth. Is the belief in the Virgin Birth necessary for a Christian? You better believe it is. Is belief in the Virgin Birth necessary for one to be saved? Once again, Yes! It is in the BIBLE! You must believe the Bible is true in order to believe Salvation is true. Is teaching the Virgin Birth in one's presentation of the Gospel necessary? No! When the plan of salvation is presented we normally say something along these lines; "I would like to share with you how the BIBLE answers that question, if I could."
Belief in TRUE TRUTH is necessary for Salvation.
Blessings,
Tim
Interesting..........
Could GOD then be unable to perform a miracle?
I think so.
What are you saying here OzmO?
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that Jesus failed to do a miracle.
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that Jesus failed to do a miracle.
When? I still don't get what you're saying? Sorry :-[
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When? I still don't get what you're saying? Sorry :-[
6:4 But Jesus, said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.
6:5 And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.
Means he couldn't do it becuase the people didn't believe in him.
If he was GOD. It wouldn;t matter what the people believed.
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6:4 But Jesus, said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.
6:5 And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.
Means he couldn't do it becuase the people didn't believe in him.
If he was GOD. It wouldn;t matter what the people believed.
Ozmo,
Jesus is GOD, and HE can do miracles whether people have faith or not. He just prefers that people have faith in order to see a miracle, and not to wait until they see a miracle in order to believe. Believing is seeing, but seeing is not believing.
John 20:28-29
Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"
Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
Mark 9:21-25
Jesus asked the boy's father, "How long has he been like this?"
From childhood," he answered.
"It has often thrown him into fire or water to kill him. But if you can do anything, take pity on us and help us."
" 'If you can'?" said Jesus. "Everything is possible for him who believes."Immediately the boy's father exclaimed, "I do believe; help me overcome my unbelief!"
When Jesus saw that a crowd was running to the scene, he rebuked the evil
spirit. "You deaf and mute spirit," he said, "I command you, come out of him and never enter him again."
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Ozmo,
Jesus is GOD, and HE can do miracles whether people have faith or not. He just prefers that people have faith in order to see a miracle, and not to wait until they see a miracle in order to believe. Believing is seeing, but seeing is not believing.
John 20:28-29
Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"
Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
Mark 9:21-25
Jesus asked the boy's father, "How long has he been like this?"
From childhood," he answered.
"It has often thrown him into fire or water to kill him. But if you can do anything, take pity on us and help us."
" 'If you can'?" said Jesus. "Everything is possible for him who believes."Immediately the boy's father exclaimed, "I do believe; help me overcome my unbelief!"
When Jesus saw that a crowd was running to the scene, he rebuked the evil
spirit. "You deaf and mute spirit," he said, "I command you, come out of him and never enter him again."
Look, i know there are many Miracles performed in the NT by Jesus. What the verse says is he couldn't do it. Not that he chose not to. The same verse in Mathew says he chose not to. (contradiction, BTW) Which tells me, Jesus had the spirit of GOD in him but was not GOD himself.
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Which tells me, Jesus had the spirit of GOD in him but was not GOD himself.
OzmO,
Do you really believe that Jesus had the spirit of GOD in him? Did Jesus even exist? Who was...is Jesus to you?
I just want to be clear on what you believe about Jesus before I discus any further.
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OzmO,
Do you really believe that Jesus had the spirit of GOD in him? Did Jesus even exist? Who was...is Jesus to you?
I just want to be clear on what you believe about Jesus before I discus any further.
Oh yeah, i believe that. He had the spirit in him , just as many other people through out history have. Maybe not as much as Jesus, but we don't know how much of what was written about him was exaggerated or altered to fit into what every political/religous aganda was being pushed at the time. (same with the others)
Also as a side note:
I believe alot of what was going on with Jesus at the time was a political struggle to put the Family of David back in power.
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Oh yeah, i believe that. He had the spirit in him , just as many other people through out history have. Maybe not as much as Jesus, but we don't know how much of what was written about him was exaggerated or altered to fit into what every political/religous aganda was being pushed at the time. (same with the others)
So you believe that any scripture where Jesus claims to be GOD, where the Jews say that Jesus claims to be GOD, where people bow down to Jesus and worship him and Jesus doesn't stop them, where people call Jesus GOD and Jesus does not correct them, was exaggerations and alterations by the Roman Catholic Church?
Do you believe that the Roman Catholic Church wrote the Gospels to fit into their political/religious agenda?
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So you believe that any scripture where Jesus claims to be GOD, where the Jews say that Jesus claims to be GOD, where people bow down to Jesus and worship him and Jesus doesn't stop them, where people call Jesus GOD and Jesus does not correct them, was exaggerations and alterations by the Roman Catholic Church?
Do you believe that the Roman Catholic Church wrote the Gospels to fit into their political/religious agenda?
Yes and NO. See we have a couple of things going on here:
- Did they believe Jesus was GOD? Maybe yes maybe no. It seems they have even though many letters are Addressed to God and Jesus as seperate people. It wasn't uncommon for people to believe a person was a GOD back then. It happened all the time.
- Was he actually GOD? If he was GOD why did he pray to himself? Why couldn;t he perform a miracle? Why did he ask: Why have you forsaken me?"
REgarding the RCC.
The selction proccess of which books to include and not included was politically motivated or at least influenced.
The writings of the Gospels (written by Mark, Luke, Matthew, john, not the RCC), which happen 30 to 50 years after the events occured, in no way can be 100% correct. Eye witness accounts of events that happen 2 days ago are often flawed. They might be 99%, 95%, 90%. The problem is that we will never know which word is or isn't a mistake. Also, when they wrote the Gospels what influences were they under? Where they trying to create a religion? Would they exaggerate or alter facts based on emotional/practical bias? Very probable. that's some of the reason why the BIBLE isn't the word of GOD, but instead the word of man with much of GOD in it, just like in many other non-christiain religous books.
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- Did they believe Jesus was GOD? Maybe yes maybe no. It seems they have even though many letters are Addressed to God and Jesus as seperate people. It wasn't uncommon for people to believe a person was a GOD back then. It happened all the time.
- Was he actually GOD? If he was GOD why did he pray to himself? Why couldn;t he perform a miracle? Why did he ask: Why have you forsaken me?"
OzmO,
I know that you do not believe that Jesus is GOD. But do you believe that Jesus claimed to be GOD? Or are you saying that any scripture where Jesus claims to be GOD is a lie written by corrupt people?
The selction proccess of which books to include and not included was politically motivated or at least influenced.
The writings of the Gospels (written by Mark, Luke, Matthew, john, not the RCC), which happen 30 to 50 years after the events occured, in no way can be 100% correct. Eye witness accounts of events that happen 2 days ago are often flawed. They might be 99%, 95%, 90%. The problem is that we will never know which word is or isn't a mistake. Also, when they wrote the Gospels what influences were they under? Where they trying to create a religion? Would they exaggerate or alter facts based on emotional/practical bias? Very probable. that's some of the reason why the BIBLE isn't the word of GOD, but instead the word of man with much of GOD in it, just like in many other non-christiain religous books.
Since I believe that GOD was behind the whole process of writting and compiling the Bible, then I believe that GOD kept the scriptures inerrant up until today.
I believe you said in another thread that the 10 commandments are God's word. Do you know who wrote about the 10 commandments in the OT? Moses did. Moses also wrote Genesis. How could Moses write about the creation of the world when he wasn't even there? GOD dictated it to him. So Moses wrote about something hundreds of years after it had happened. Why not believe the Gospels which were written just within 40 years of Jesus' crucifixion?
“And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself. . . These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me” (Luke 24:27, 44).
“For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost” (2 Peter 1:21).
“All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness” (2 Timothy 3:16).
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OzmO,
I know that you do not believe that Jesus is GOD. But do you believe that Jesus claimed to be GOD? Or are you saying that any scripture where Jesus claims to be GOD is a lie written by corrupt people?
No, of course not. People wrote what they believed and what they believe was good for the church they were starting. What they believed might not have been true, but they might have been convinced of it. Like the 9/11 Conspiracy Theorists for example.
Jesus may have also believed he was GOD in the sense that GOD "is" inside all of us and we have the ability to draw upon GOD grace in all things in our lives.
I feel that force very much inside me and it guides me in my life second by second.
Since I believe that GOD was behind the whole process of writting and compiling the Bible, then I believe that GOD kept the scriptures inerrant up until today.
I believe you said in another thread that the 10 commandments are God's word. Do you know who wrote about the 10 commandments in the OT? Moses did. Moses also wrote Genesis. How could Moses write about the creation of the world when he wasn't even there? GOD dictated it to him. So Moses wrote about something hundreds of years after it had happened. Why not believe the Gospels which were written just within 40 years of Jesus' crucifixion?
Is the earth 13,000 years old? NO. (4000+ years based on tracing back the generations from Christ to Adam, plus 2000 years A.D., plus the 7 thousands years GOD took to create the heavans and Earth: 1 day = 1000 years)
Genesis, at least the first part, is only a medaphor of creation.
Also, look at the inconsistant logic: I wrote that GOD told me this therfore it must be true becuase it says God told me this.
Another thing: When Adam and Eve ate the Apple (which in reality was them having sex) what did they become? God's or Angles?
Genesis says: Behold they have become one of "US" (if i remember the verse correctly)
You see, there are just too many flaws here in both the NT and OT to be the "100% word of GOD" and becuase of that we do have the right to say:
"Our way is the only way" Which is what most religions do especially Christians.
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No, of course not.
Thanks for your answer! Now I'm clear on what it is you believe as far as Jesus' claims go.
As far as the OT goes, all I'm asking is:
Do you believe that the 10 commandments are God's word? If so, how can you be sure?
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Thanks for your answer! Now I'm clear on what it is you believe as far as Jesus' claims go.
So what is it that i believe as far as Jesus goes? ;)
As far as the OT goes, all I'm asking is:
Do you believe that the 10 commandments are God's word? If so, how can you be sure?
I believe they are becuase the same and or similar guidelines are in many other religeons and combined with the wisdom of the commandments themselves they are a great set of guidelilnes to live by that aren't impossible to do.
Remember:
I believe GOD loves every soul very much. And he'll speak to all those souls in many different ways and religions, but not just one religion!
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So what is it that i believe as far as Jesus goes? ;)
You believe, if I'm not mistaken, that Jesus did exist, but that he was only a man and not GOD, that Jesus never claimed to be GOD, that Jesus' claims that his is GOD were made up and written by some corrupt people.
I of course disagree with you.
I believe they are becuase the same and or similar guidelines are in many other religeons and combined with the wisdom of the commandments themselves they are a great set of guidelilnes to live by that aren't impossible to do.
These religions took those guidelines from the OT, didn't they? Judaism, Christianity and Islam did. Who else is there, and where did they get it from?
I believe GOD loves every soul very much.
We Christians believe this too:
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
And he'll speak to all those souls in many different ways and religions, but not just one religion!
This is where we disagree:
John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Matthew 28:19
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit
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I must say, unless you have one wicked search program, your command, knowledge and retrieval of related bible scriptures is impressive.
that Jesus never claimed to be GOD
NO, I don't believe that he never claim to be GOD. (I don;t know either way, i wasn;t there) I believe he may have been saying some of the things he allegedly said in the context of the concept of GOD is inside all of us.
written by some corrupt people.
I believe they may have believed Jesus was GOD. That doesn't mean he was. It only means they believed it and wrote about it accordingly.
These religions took those guidelines from the OT, didn't they? Judaism, Christianity and Islam did. Who else is there, and where did they get it from?
How old is the OT? According to BIBle Scholars: no more than 6000 years old by tracing the genrations back from Jesus to Adam.
Off the top of my head several civilizations exsisted before that complete with their own religion and moral codes.
Here are a couple of those civilizations:
Egypt
Summeria
There has been much specualtion by both BIBLE scholars and archeologists that much of the first 4 books of the bible were written in 600 BC when the Jews were enslaved by Babylonia and that they "borrowed" much of information in those books from Babylonian texts.
BTW Islam started in 600 AD. It's relatively new.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
Peter and John are expressing opinions here. They are expressing what they believe and as i've talked about earlier, many times in human history have people truely believed a person was "a GOD" (kings/pharohs etc.. being decendants from Gods) so it's not suprising, or telling of whether Jesus was viewed as a GOD on earth or not.
Then Add to that the fact he couldn't perform a miracle tells me very strongly that perhaps the deciples thought of Jesus as a man endowed wit the spirit of GOD rather then GOD himself and viewed it differently then you do do in this day in age.
John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Perhaps at that very time Jesus said that, that was the only way. Notice he didn't day "forever" or "now"
Matthew 28:19
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit
This is where it's just unrealistic.
In 2000 years there have been litterally 100's of millions of souls who were not exposed to christainity in there life times. God in his deep love forsaked all those souls? Of course not.
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I must say, unless you have one wicked search program, your command, knowledge and retrieval of related bible scriptures is impressive.
LOL
Thank you! Well, I've been reading the Bible for about 30 years, in English and in Spanish. So I have a good idea of what's there, a general idea of where to find it and more or less what it says. I do have to look it up because I don't have it all memorized. I used to use concordances to find what I was looking for, but now I use the Bible Gateway. There you can search the Bible in many different languages and in many different versions. Check it out:
http://www.biblegateway.com/
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Also, look at the inconsistant logic: I wrote that GOD told me this therfore it must be true becuase it says God told me this.
100% correct.
Another thing: When Adam and Eve ate the Apple (which in reality was them having sex)
100% correct.
"Our way is the only way" Which is what most religions do especially Christians.
100% correct.
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Another thing: When Adam and Eve ate the Apple (which in reality was them having sex)
OzmO, I've never heard this before. May I ask where you heard it? And may I ask if you were ever involved in a specific denomination or religion?
what did they become? God's or Angles?
Genesis says: Behold they have become one of "US" (if i remember the verse correctly)
The verse is actually: And the Lord God said, "The man has now become LIKE one of us, knowing good and evil." Gen 3:22
So they were still "man" - not gods nor angels.
your command, knowledge and retrieval of related bible scriptures is impressive.
I agree! I really enjoy reading loco's posts :)
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I agree! I really enjoy reading loco's posts :)
Thanks STella! And thank you also for jumping in and helping out with the discussion! ;D
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Thanks STella! And thank you also for jumping in and helping out with the discussion! ;D
I should be saying that to you! So I will! Thank you ;D
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OzmO, I've never heard this before. May I ask where you heard it?
"Taking a bite of the apple" has been a euphemism for having sex for as long as I can remember.
But even though the text itself is old, it makes perfect sense when you look at it that way:
It was after they 'took the bite' that they realized they were 'naked'.
Sex is one of the two major things in the world (the other being money) that can bring the greatest good - new life - or can do the most damage...adultery, unwanted pregnancies, etc.
The bible and all the western religions (this includes islam) have a serious preoccupation with sex.
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OzmO, I've never heard this before. May I ask where you heard it? And may I ask if you were ever involved in a specific denomination or religion?
There are actually a few verses inthe bible that indicate it was sex.
Basically it was a double pregnancy (Cain from Satan, Abel from Adam) Eve had sex twice that day. This is how Satan (original sin) was brought into the human race.
I don;t have my BIble with me at work but i do hav the verses underlined in it at home.
Off the top pf my head:
1 John 3:12
Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous
(thanks loco for the link)
Anyways, i leanred this from my friend who is a pastor in a non denominational church who are all pretty much bible literalists.
The Pastor who started the chruch was a man named William Brannon (dead now) (I got a few of his books somewhere)
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Basically it was a double pregnancy (Cain from Satan, Abel from Adam) Eve had sex twice that day. This is how Satan (original sin) was brought into the human race.
LOL...not laughing at you, OzmO. I just think this sounds funny. I never heard that one before either. You learn something new about what other people believe everyday. ;D
(thanks loco for the link)
You are welcome!
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LOL...not laughing at you, OzmO. I just think this sounds funny. I never heard that one before either. You learn something new about what other people believe everyday. ;D
You are welcome!
I spent a year going to this church twice a week. They seriously follow the Bible word for word. BTW double pregnancies are possible.
I'll get the verses for you. Later today or this weekend.
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I spent a year going to this church twice a week. They seriously follow the Bible word for word. BTW double pregnancies are possible.
I'll get the verses for you. Later today or this weekend.
It's not the double pregnancy, it's the thought of Satan, Adam and Eve having an orgy that's funny. ;D
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It's not the double pregnancy, it's the thought of Satan, Adam and Eve having an orgy that's funny. ;D
Yeah it is...
What happen was, she "ate the apple" with the snake, then later on she went to Adam and had him "eat the apple". Basicaly Eve was having a very busy day ;).
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I thought it was generally accepted that the serpent represents Adam's penis. Adam's erect penis says 'do it' to Eve, and then Eve offers her goods up to Adam.
So, the net result is that Eve gets 'blamed' for making Adam do what he did - it was Eve's fault for making Adam lust after her. And that's how every religion gets away with subjugating women.
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The following might be offensive to christians( I mean no harm). I am a muslim and I read the bible and I read the Quraan. According to my knowledge of the bible and christians of today i can honestly say that muslims are the true christians in todays time. For the simple reason, How many christians follow the bible?(They are told not eat the flesh of swines) How many follow the comandments?(The adulterer and the adulteres should be stoned to death).
yeah good luck on convincing people that muslims are the true christians.
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"Taking a bite of the apple" has been a euphemism for having sex for as long as I can remember.
But even though the text itself is old, it makes perfect sense when you look at it that way:
It was after they 'took the bite' that they realized they were 'naked'.
Sex is one of the two major things in the world (the other being money) that can bring the greatest good - new life - or can do the most damage...adultery, unwanted pregnancies, etc.
The bible and all the western religions (this includes islam) have a serious preoccupation with sex.
Tre, according to the bible the tree from which they ate was "the tree of knowledge of good and evil."
It was after they 'took the bite' that they realized they were naked because they ate from "the tree of knowledge."
The analogy for Adam and Eve having sex doesn't hold up from a biblical standpoint as
Genesis 2:8-9 states: "Now the Lord God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there He put the man he had formed. And the Lord God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground - trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for FOOD. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
then to
Genesis 2:16-17: "And the Lord God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil."
(At this moment there were no other people on earth but Adam. So God was literally referring to eating food)
This sounds like literal eating as well:
Genesis 3:6: "When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for FOOD and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who as with her, and he ate it."
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There are actually a few verses inthe bible that indicate it was sex.
Off the top pf my head:
1 John 3:12
Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous
OK, I'll never agree that Eve had sex w/satan but as far as the above scripture the way I see it is not that Eve had a double-preg w/Cain being from satan but that Cain was "of that wicked one" meaning the same as this scripture:
John 8:44 (Jesus is speaking to the Pharisees) "You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth inhim. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies."
Now, Jesus is not saying there that all of the Pharisees' mothers had sex w/the devil and that they (the Pharisees) are the offspring.....He is saying that the believer's Father is God and the unbeliever's father is the devil. It may sound harsh, but that is what the scripture states......John 8:42 "If God were your Father, you would love me, ....etc"
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Anyways, i leanred this from my friend who is a pastor in a non denominational church who are all pretty much bible literalists.
The Pastor who started the chruch was a man named William Brannon (dead now) (I got a few of his books somewhere)
OzmO, I'm trying to find out more about William Brannon. Do you have the names of those books that you have please?
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I thought it was generally accepted that the serpent represents Adam's penis. Adam's erect penis says 'do it' to Eve, and then Eve offers her goods up to Adam.
So, the net result is that Eve gets 'blamed' for making Adam do what he did - it was Eve's fault for making Adam lust after her. And that's how every religion gets away with subjugating women.
No. I've never heard that either Tre. Do you remember where you heard that? Was it at a church or did someone state it to you?
Genesis 3:1 "Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made...."
later God says to the serpent:
Genesis 3:14 "Cursed are you above all the livestock and all the wild animals! You will crawl on your belly and eat dust all the days of your life."
Haven't heard of a penis that does the above :P
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OzmO, I'm trying to find out more about William Brannon. Do you have the names of those books that you have please?
I found one of his sermon books i have:
William H. Branham
I google him , he's not on the web.
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Tre, according to the bible the tree from which they ate was "the tree of knowledge of good and evil."
It was after they 'took the bite' that they realized they were naked because they ate from "the tree of knowledge."
The analogy for Adam and Eve having sex doesn't hold up from a biblical standpoint as
Genesis 2:8-9 states: "Now the Lord God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there He put the man he had formed. And the Lord God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground - trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for FOOD. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
then to
Genesis 2:16-17: "And the Lord God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil."
(At this moment there were no other people on earth but Adam. So God was literally referring to eating food)
This sounds like literal eating as well:
Genesis 3:6: "When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for FOOD and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who as with her, and he ate it."
Very good, STella! To this I'll add that not only was it okay with GOD for Adam and Eve to have sex, but GOD told them to have sex.
Genesis 1:27-28
"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth."
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I found one of his sermon books i have:
William H. Branham
I google him , he's not on the web.
Is this the same guy? (from www.intotruth.org [i know nothing of this website])
WILLIAM BRANHAM
Inscribed on a pyramid-shaped tombstone in a Jeffersonville, Indiana cemetery, are the names of the seven churches of Revelation, "Ephesian" at the base representing the beginning of the Church Age, "Laodicean" near the top the end of the Church Age. On the opposite face are the names of seven men whose impact on the Church throughout its history has been significant.
Were the two faces of the pyramid juxtaposed one over the other, we would see the names of the churches superimposed over the men's names in the following order, from bottom to top:
Ephesian - Paul
Smyrnean - Ireneaus
Pergamean - Martin
Thyatirean - Columba
Sardisean - Luther
Philadelphian - Wesley
Laodicean - Branham
Among most major proponents of Kingdom Theology these men are considered the great reformers of the various stages of Church history.
To many Kingdom Theology proponents William Branham was perhaps the greatest "prophet" for the Church's final age.
In 1948, Branham, a Baptist preacher turned Pentecostal, and influenced by Franklin Hall, gained notoriety for his teachings on what he called, "God's Seventh Church Age" (supposedly the final move of God before the manifestation of His Kingdom on earth).
Branham based this teaching primarily on Joel 2:23 and Revelation 1:20-3:22, the latter recording Jesus' messages to the seven churches in Asia Minor. Branham claimed that the angels (messengers) to the churches were men who appeared at various times throughout Church history to usher in revelations that would lead the Church in new directions according to the purpose of God.
As indicated on his tombstone, Branham was thought to be the angel to the Church of Laodicea - the end-time Church. In his teachings on Joel 2:23, Branham defined the "latter rain" as the Pentecostal Movement of his day. God's promise to restore what the locust, cankerworm, caterpillar, and palmerworm had eaten, he defined as the "restoration" of the Church out of denominationalism (which he equated with "the Mark of the Beast").
Although denying he was a believer in the "oneness" doctrine, Branham had his own form of "oneness" teaching that defined God as one person who manifested Himself as three different "attributes": the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, rather than three Persons comprising one Godhead.(21) He believed the doctrine of the Trinity was the "Babylonian Foundation" of the denominations, inherited from Roman Catholicism.(22) Branham also believed that the Word of God was given in three forms: the Zodiac, the Egyptian pyramids, and the written Scriptures. (23)
The Zodiac theory was not new, having been put forth by Franklin Hall previously, and as early as 1893 by historian E.W. Bullinger in his book, 'The Witness of the Stars.' The idea that the Great Pyramid of Giza in Egypt was constructed by God (possibly through Enoch) is at least as old as the Zodiac theory, and is popular with the Dawn Bible Students, an offshoot of the Jehovah's Witnesses.
It can be said of Branham that he had a simplicity and apparent humility which attracted many followers. "Gordon Lindsay told of how he impressed audiences with his utter and complete consecration." (24)
The Serpent's Seed
In spite of his apparent humility and consecration, Branham had great difficulty controlling a strident, hateful attitude toward women. In his own poor English, transcribed from a sermon, Branham stated, "But I remember when my father's still up there running, I had to be out there with water and stuff, see young ladies that wasn't over seventeen, eighteen years, up there with a man my age now, drunk. And they'd have to sober them up and give them black coffee, to get them home to cook their husband's supper. Oh, something like that, I said, 'I...This was my remarked [sic] then, THEY'RE NOT WORTH A GOOD CLEAN BULLET TO KILL THEM WITH IT.' That's right. And I hated women. That's right. And I just have to watch every move now, to keep from still thinking the same thing."(25)
This attitude toward women may have played a part in the development of Branham's bizarre "Serpent Seed" teaching. This was based on a twisted interpretation of Genesis 3:13, where Eve is recorded as saying, "The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat." The word "beguiled" Branham defined as "seduced sexually." He claimed that Satan and Eve engaged in an adulterous affair out of which Cain was born. Since that time evil has passed from generation to generation through women, who keep the seed of the serpent alive.(26)
He seemed to think that women are responsible for the evil in the world because of their enticements. The "Serpent's Seed" teaching obviously indicated that Branham didn't take the Scriptures literally, where we read, "And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived and bare Cain..." (Genesis 4:1). His animosity toward women led to the preaching of a rigid moral code that lambasted them on their manner of dress, and may have been responsible for his "revelation" that allowed for divorce.(27)
Supernatural Manifestations
From the time of his infancy it was evident to his parents that William's life had upon it the touch of the supernatural. Born in 1909 in a mountain cabin near Berksville, Kentucky, William Marrion Branham's childhood was spent in extreme poverty. His father was only eighteen years of age, and his mother fifteen when he came into the world weighing a scant five pounds, the first of nine boys and one girl. (28)
The following account may be legend or fact, but it was part of Branham's testimony from the start: On the day of his birth, after being washed, he was placed in his mother's arms by the midwife who then went to a window to open the shutter. (There was no glass in the Branham house in those days.) As dawn broke sending a few rays of light into the room, there was seen a small circular halo about a foot in diameter, above the bed where little William lay in his mother's arms.(29)
Thousands of people have supposedly seen this halo, which is ostensibly revealed in a photograph taken in Houston, Texas, during a January, 1950, campaign. (The best we've been able to obtain is a photostatic copy of a copy which, though poorly reproduced here, will allow the reader to see what has been taken for a "halo."
Whether this is a halo or a flaw in the negative - whether it is a manifestation from God or Satan or poor photography, we will leave to the reader's judgment.) When he was three years of age, Branham experienced for the first time what he called "the Voice." At age seven "the Voice" commanded him, "Don't you never drink, smoke, or defile your body in any way. There'll be work for you to do when you get older."(30)
This "Voice" accompanied Branham throughout his lifetime, and eventually made itself known as an "angel" that directed him in every aspect of his personal life.(31)
During healing services Branham would often fall into a trance during which his angel would work through him. Asked once if the healings were done by the Holy Spirit, Branham replied, "No, my angel does it." (32)
Branham was one of the foremost proponents of the theory of healing and imparting the Holy Spirit through the "laying on of hands." He would often feel a heat in his hand as he touched affected parts, and exhibited a remarkable clairvoyancy in knowing intimate details of the lives of people he had never seen before. No doubt this was due to the angel's possession of his mind.
Difficulties With The Brethren
Branham's unorthodox methods of healing and allegedly imparting the Holy Spirit by the laying on of his hands came under severe criticism by the Pentecostal Assemblies of Canada. These practices became major sources of controversy between the Latter Rain Movement and the established Pentecostal denominations who held to their belief that one must "tarry" in prayer for the gift of the Holy Spirit.
In spite of his bizarre healing methods and aberrant doctrines, Branham enjoyed remarkable popularity among many Pentecostals, and was warmly received by such notables as Demos Shakarian (founder of the Full Gospel Business Men's Fellowship International), Oral Roberts, W.V. Grant, A.A. Allen, Gordon Lindsay (founder of Christ for the Nations), O.L. Jaggers, George Warnock, and Franklin Hall. Although many Pentecostals were willing to embrace Branham as an "apostle" and "prophet" while overlooking his aberrant teachings, his popularity declined in the late 1950's after his numerous bold proclamations of "thus saith the Lord" to establish his doctrines. Many Pentecostal churches became reluctant to allow him to speak. (33)
No one conversant with Pentecostalism will deny that, for better or for worse, William Branham had a tremendous effect on the neo-Pentecostalism of his time. From all accounts, he did exhibit remarkable healing powers which no doubt played a significant part in giving credibility to his teachings. Branham was warmly welcomed by Pentecostal churches and organizations such as the Full Gospel Business Men's Fellowship International.
This organization in particular provided his most reliable support. In 1961, the editor of FGBMFI's magazine, 'Voice,' wrote, "In Bible Days, there were men of God who were Prophets and Seers. But in all the Sacred Records, none of these had a greater ministry than that of William Branham." (34)
It should be noted that often what Branham taught as a guest speaker differed from what he taught at his own church, Branham Tabernacle, where he felt freer to disclose his more aberrant teachings. Toward the end of his career, however, Branham's public espousal of his strange doctrines became even more controversial and he was used less and less by the FGBMFI, though for several years his speaking engagements were underwritten by local chapters. For years he had been a frequent speaker at regional and national conventions.
Eulogies
Branham's life ended abruptly. While on a trip to Arizona, his car was hit head-on by one driven by a drunken driver. For six days he lay in a coma and, on Christmas Eve, 1965, he passed away. The entire Pentecostal world was shaken by the tragedy. "A number of old friends - Oral Roberts, Demos Shakarian, T.L. Osborn - telephoned their concern."35
When Branham died, Demos Shakarian wrote, "Rev. Branham often made the statement that the only Fellowship to which he belonged was FGBMFI. Often, when called upon to speak at various conventions and chapter meetings, he has traveled long distances to keep those engagements. His spirit of service was an inspiration."36
Many of Branham's followers believed that he had truly come in the spirit of Elijah; some believed him to be God, born of a virgin. (37)
They fully expected him to rise from the dead and come back to them at the end of three days. Five days after his passing, William Branham was buried, and his grave was soon marked by the pyramid-shaped tombstone. To date, William Branham's body is still in the grave. But his occult approach to healing was picked up by hundreds of pastors and teachers who have traded on it to a greater or lesser degree.
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THE SHARON BRETHREN
In the fall of 1947, two former pastors for the Pentecostal Assemblies of Canada, George Hawtin and Percy G. Hunt, joined with Herrick Holt, a pastor of the North Battleford, Saskatchewan, Church of the Foursquare Gospel, in an independent work. That work - Sharon Orphanage and Schools which Holt had originally started in a large residence in North Battleford - had come to occupy about one thousand acres of farmland about ten miles distant from the city limits.
With Hawtin and Hunt came seventy students from Bethel Bible Institute where both had formerly taught before Hawtin was asked to resign for lack of cooperation, and Hunt resigned out of sympathy.
George Hawtin's brother-in- law, Milford Kirkpatrick, and Ernest Hawtin, George's brother, soon joined in ministry at Sharon.38 Herrick Holt had been preaching that God was going to be doing a "new thing" in accordance with the prophecy of Isaiah 43:18-19:
"Remember ye not the former things, neither consider the things of old. Behold I will do a new thing; Now it shall spring forth; shall ye not know it? I will even make a way in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert."
Of great influence upon the work at Sharon were the teachings of William Branham. Several of the school's brethren visited one of his campaigns shortly after George Hawtin and P.G. Hunt had come on staff.
With renewed fervor, the brethren took Branham's teachings back to Sharon, unaware that the supernatural power bestowed upon them by Branham would make their ministry the focal point of the Latter Rain Movement for several years to come. (39)
Another influence, on the Hawtin brothers in particular, was J.E. Stile's book, 'The Gift of the Holy Spirit,' which asserted that if one were truly repentant, and believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, all that was necessary for him to receive the Holy Spirit was for another believer to lay hands on him (40)
Franklin Hall's book was especially utilized at Sharon. Ernest Hawtin wrote: "The truth of fasting was one great contributing factor to the revival. One year before this we had read Franklin Hall's book, entitled 'Atomic Power With God Through Fasting and Prayer.' We immediately began to practise [sic] fasting. Previously we had not understood the possibility of long fasts. The revival would never have been possible without the restoration of this great truth through our good brother Hall." (41)
On February 11, 1948, a young woman at the Bible school prophesied that a great revival was about to break out. The next day, according to Ern Hawtin, the Holy Spirit fell with great power. "Day after day the Glory and Power of God came among us. Great repentance, humbling, fasting and prayer prevailed in everyone."(42)
Because of the manifestation of power at North Battleford, news of the outbreak spread, and soon people were coming from everywhere to receive that power. They believed that the long drought was over for Pentecostals, whose use of the gifts had gradually declined since the advent of Pentecostalism at the turn of the century.(43)
A striking characteristic of the Sharon revival was the effort to avoid the establishment of another denomination as had happened during the earlier Pentecostal Movement. George Hawtin was especially adamant about this and labored to instruct those who were touched by his ministry not to fall into that trap. He felt that the unity of the Church was essential to bring about its restoration, and therefore encouraged the establishment of autonomous, local congregations. It became a hallmark of the Latter Rain Movement that innumerable independent churches sprang up with no denominational affiliation.
This did not set well with the Pentecostal denominations, who lost many members to this "new thing."
A major point of controversy between the North Battleford brethren and some Pentecostal denominations was the teaching by the former that there are present-day apostles and prophets for the Church. (44)
And though George Hawtin wrote in the June, 1948, issue of 'The Sharon Star' (the school's newsletter) that "no church exercises or has any right to exercise authority of jurisdiction over another church, its pastors or members," the travelling "presbytery" from Sharon, of which he was a part, did indeed exercise authority over people in other congregations through personal "directive prophecy." (45)
In spite of the Sharon group's insistence upon autonomy, they eventually became sectarian to the extreme, holding to the notions that no teaching was valid unless it originated with them, no fellowship was to be engaged in with anyone outside their own confines, and they alone were the purveyors of God's truth.
If anyone would be an "overcomer," it must be through obedience to their authority. Even some who were endorsed as apostles and prophets by the Sharon group eventually became disillusioned and broke ties from Sharon.
Among these was Reg Layzell who wrote: "At the first camp meeting you were made a member of the Body of Christ by the Spirit of God. And even if you said you were not in the Body you still were. No man could put you in or take you out. Now the error: they claim you are only put in by them and can be put out by them."46
A significant event in the history of Sharon Orphanage and School was its July 7-18, 1948 Camp Meeting, during which thousands of people from Canada and the United States flocked in hopes of receiving something special from God. Residents from at least twenty states attended, and the great Latter Rain Movement burst upon the world. From that time the movement spread rapidly and Sharon shortly became just one of many centers of teaching for the Latter Rain Movement.
In his thesis on this movement, Richard Riss states:"It should be noted however, that prior to the revival, these practices [laying on of hands and acceptance of apostles and prophets] were already commonplace in some places, including Elim Bible Institute, which was at that time in Hornell, N.Y., and which, until the revival, had not had contact with North Battleford." (47)
"It should also be noted...that prophecy was a major distinguishing mark of the Latter Rain Movement, whereas, in the case of the healing evangelists, healing was more prominent, and in the case of the early pentecostal revival, tongues had prominence." (48)
Elim Bible Institute was for years prior to the outbreak of the Latter Rain Movement a center for neo-Pentecostal teachings. Although it was Sharon Orphanage that gave real impetus to these teachings, it is Elim Bible Institute that has continued even to this day with its influence, while the Sharon group has largely been relegated to obscurity.
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Very good, STella! To this I'll add that not only was it okay with GOD for Adam and Eve to have sex, but GOD told them to have sex.
:D Thanks loco lol!
Agree on the sex thing. :)
OzmO, supposedly William Branham is somewhere here too, but I didn't have time to find him:
Just FYI: http://myindianahome.net/gen/jeff/records/church/churchhx.html
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That's the guy alright ;)
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That's the guy alright ;)
:) I haven't read that whole thing...only skimmed it. Is that pretty accurate OzmO? Or do you feel it's biased (I intend to read it later)?