Not everyone who claims to be a Christian really is one.

[OzmO]

that Jesus failed to do a miracle. 

[Butterbean]

that Jesus failed to do a miracle. 

When?  I still don't get what you're saying?  Sorry

[OzmO]

When?  I still don't get what you're saying?  Sorry

6:4  But Jesus, said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.
6:5 And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.


Means he couldn't do it becuase the people didn't believe in him.

If he was GOD.  It wouldn;t matter what the people believed.

[loco]

6:4  But Jesus, said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.
6:5 And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.


Means he couldn't do it becuase the people didn't believe in him.

If he was GOD.  It wouldn;t matter what the people believed.

Ozmo,
Jesus is GOD, and HE can do miracles whether people have faith or not.  He just prefers that people have faith in order to see a miracle, and not to wait until they see a miracle in order to believe.  Believing is seeing, but seeing is not believing.

John 20:28-29
Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"
Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

Mark 9:21-25
Jesus asked the boy's father, "How long has he been like this?"
From childhood," he answered.
"It has often thrown him into fire or water to kill him. But if you can do anything, take pity on us and help us."
" 'If you can'?" said Jesus. "Everything is possible for him who believes."Immediately the boy's father exclaimed, "I do believe; help me overcome my unbelief!"
When Jesus saw that a crowd was running to the scene, he rebuked the evil
spirit. "You deaf and mute spirit," he said, "I command you, come out of him and never enter him again."

[OzmO]

Ozmo,
Jesus is GOD, and HE can do miracles whether people have faith or not.  He just prefers that people have faith in order to see a miracle, and not to wait until they see a miracle in order to believe.  Believing is seeing, but seeing is not believing.

John 20:28-29
Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"
Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

Mark 9:21-25
Jesus asked the boy's father, "How long has he been like this?"
From childhood," he answered.
"It has often thrown him into fire or water to kill him. But if you can do anything, take pity on us and help us."
" 'If you can'?" said Jesus. "Everything is possible for him who believes."Immediately the boy's father exclaimed, "I do believe; help me overcome my unbelief!"
When Jesus saw that a crowd was running to the scene, he rebuked the evil
spirit. "You deaf and mute spirit," he said, "I command you, come out of him and never enter him again."

Look,  i know there are many Miracles performed in the NT by Jesus.  What the verse says is he couldn't do it.  Not that he chose not to.  The same verse in Mathew says he chose not to. (contradiction, BTW)  Which tells me, Jesus had the spirit of GOD in him but was not GOD himself.

[loco]

Which tells me, Jesus had the spirit of GOD in him but was not GOD himself.

OzmO,
Do you really believe that Jesus had the spirit of GOD in him?  Did Jesus even exist?  Who was...is Jesus to you?

I just want to be clear on what you believe about Jesus before I discus any further.

[OzmO]

OzmO,
Do you really believe that Jesus had the spirit of GOD in him?  Did Jesus even exist?  Who was...is Jesus to you?

I just want to be clear on what you believe about Jesus before I discus any further.

Oh yeah,  i believe that.  He had the spirit in him ,  just as many other people through out history have.  Maybe not as much as Jesus, but we don't know how much of what was written about him was exaggerated or altered to fit into what every political/religous aganda was being pushed at the time.  (same with the others) 


Also as a side note:

I believe alot of what was going on with Jesus at the time was a political struggle to put the Family of David back in power.

[loco]

Oh yeah,  i believe that.  He had the spirit in him ,  just as many other people through out history have.  Maybe not as much as Jesus, but we don't know how much of what was written about him was exaggerated or altered to fit into what every political/religous aganda was being pushed at the time.  (same with the others) 

So you believe that any scripture where Jesus claims to be GOD, where the Jews say that Jesus claims to be GOD, where people bow down to Jesus and worship him and Jesus doesn't stop them, where people call Jesus GOD and Jesus does not correct them, was exaggerations and alterations by the Roman Catholic Church? 

Do you believe that the Roman Catholic Church wrote the Gospels to fit into their political/religious agenda?

[OzmO]

So you believe that any scripture where Jesus claims to be GOD, where the Jews say that Jesus claims to be GOD, where people bow down to Jesus and worship him and Jesus doesn't stop them, where people call Jesus GOD and Jesus does not correct them, was exaggerations and alterations by the Roman Catholic Church? 

Do you believe that the Roman Catholic Church wrote the Gospels to fit into their political/religious agenda?

Yes and NO.  See we have a couple of things going on here:

-  Did they believe Jesus was GOD?  Maybe yes maybe no.  It seems they have even though many letters are Addressed to God and Jesus as seperate people.  It wasn't uncommon for people to believe a person was a GOD back then.  It happened all the time.

-  Was he actually GOD?  If he was GOD why did he pray to himself?  Why couldn;t he perform a miracle?  Why did he ask:  Why have you forsaken me?"

REgarding the RCC.

The selction proccess of which books to include and not included was politically motivated or at least influenced.

The writings of the Gospels (written by Mark, Luke, Matthew, john, not the RCC), which happen 30 to 50 years after the events occured, in no way can be 100% correct.  Eye witness accounts of events that happen 2 days ago are often flawed.  They might be 99%, 95%, 90%.  The problem is that we will never know which word is or isn't a mistake.   Also, when they wrote the Gospels what influences were they under?  Where they trying to create a religion?  Would they exaggerate or alter facts based on emotional/practical bias?  Very probable.  that's some of the reason why the BIBLE isn't the word of GOD, but instead the word of man with much of GOD in it, just like in many other non-christiain religous books.

[loco]

-  Did they believe Jesus was GOD?  Maybe yes maybe no.  It seems they have even though many letters are Addressed to God and Jesus as seperate people.  It wasn't uncommon for people to believe a person was a GOD back then.  It happened all the time.
-  Was he actually GOD?  If he was GOD why did he pray to himself?  Why couldn;t he perform a miracle?  Why did he ask:  Why have you forsaken me?"

OzmO,
I know that you do not believe that Jesus is GOD.  But do you believe that Jesus claimed to be GOD?  Or are you saying that any scripture where Jesus claims to be GOD is a lie written by corrupt people?

The selction proccess of which books to include and not included was politically motivated or at least influenced.
The writings of the Gospels (written by Mark, Luke, Matthew, john, not the RCC), which happen 30 to 50 years after the events occured, in no way can be 100% correct.  Eye witness accounts of events that happen 2 days ago are often flawed.  They might be 99%, 95%, 90%.  The problem is that we will never know which word is or isn't a mistake.   Also, when they wrote the Gospels what influences were they under?  Where they trying to create a religion?  Would they exaggerate or alter facts based on emotional/practical bias?  Very probable.  that's some of the reason why the BIBLE isn't the word of GOD, but instead the word of man with much of GOD in it, just like in many other non-christiain religous books.

Since I believe that GOD was behind the whole process of writting and compiling the Bible, then I believe that GOD kept the scriptures inerrant up until today. 

I believe you said in another thread that the 10 commandments are God's word.  Do you know who wrote about the 10 commandments in the OT?  Moses did.  Moses also wrote Genesis.  How could Moses write about the creation of the world when he wasn't even there?  GOD dictated it to him.  So Moses wrote about something hundreds of years after it had happened.  Why not believe the Gospels which were written just within 40 years of Jesus' crucifixion?

“And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself. . . These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me” (Luke 24:27, 44).

“For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost” (2 Peter 1:21).

“All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness” (2 Timothy 3:16).

[OzmO]

OzmO,
I know that you do not believe that Jesus is GOD.  But do you believe that Jesus claimed to be GOD?  Or are you saying that any scripture where Jesus claims to be GOD is a lie written by corrupt people?

No,  of course not.  People wrote what they believed and what they believe was good for the church they were starting.  What they believed might not have been true, but they might have been convinced of it.  Like the 9/11 Conspiracy Theorists for example. 

Jesus may have also believed he was GOD in the sense that GOD "is" inside all of us and we have the ability to draw upon GOD grace in all things in our lives. 

I feel that force very much inside me and  it guides me in my life second by second.

Since I believe that GOD was behind the whole process of writting and compiling the Bible, then I believe that GOD kept the scriptures inerrant up until today. 

I believe you said in another thread that the 10 commandments are God's word.  Do you know who wrote about the 10 commandments in the OT?  Moses did.  Moses also wrote Genesis.  How could Moses write about the creation of the world when he wasn't even there?  GOD dictated it to him.  So Moses wrote about something hundreds of years after it had happened.  Why not believe the Gospels which were written just within 40 years of Jesus' crucifixion?

Is the earth 13,000 years old?  NO. (4000+ years based on tracing back the generations from Christ to Adam, plus 2000 years A.D., plus the 7 thousands years GOD took to create the heavans and Earth: 1 day = 1000 years) 

  Genesis, at least the first part, is only a medaphor of creation. 

Also,  look at the inconsistant logic:  I wrote that GOD told me this therfore it must be true becuase it says God told me this.

Another thing:  When Adam and Eve ate the Apple (which in reality was them having sex) what did they become?  God's or Angles?

Genesis says:  Behold they have become one of "US"  (if i remember the verse correctly)

You see, there are just too many flaws here in both the NT and OT to be the "100% word of GOD"  and becuase of that we do have the right to say: 

"Our way is the only way"  Which is what most religions do especially Christians.

[loco]

No,  of course not. 

Thanks for your answer!  Now I'm clear on what it is you believe as far as Jesus' claims go.

As far as the OT goes, all I'm asking is:
Do you believe that the 10 commandments are God's word?  If so, how can you be sure? 

[OzmO]

Thanks for your answer!  Now I'm clear on what it is you believe as far as Jesus' claims go.

So what is it that i believe as far as Jesus goes?   

As far as the OT goes, all I'm asking is:
Do you believe that the 10 commandments are God's word?  If so, how can you be sure? 

I believe they are becuase the same and or similar guidelines are in many other religeons and combined with the wisdom of the commandments themselves they are a great set of guidelilnes to live by that aren't impossible to do.


Remember:

I believe GOD loves every soul very much.   And he'll speak to all those souls in many different ways and religions, but not just one religion!

[loco]

So what is it that i believe as far as Jesus goes?   

You believe, if I'm not mistaken, that Jesus did exist, but that he was only a man and not GOD, that Jesus never claimed to be GOD, that Jesus' claims that his is GOD were made up and written by some corrupt people.

I of course disagree with you.

I believe they are becuase the same and or similar guidelines are in many other religeons and combined with the wisdom of the commandments themselves they are a great set of guidelilnes to live by that aren't impossible to do.

These religions took those guidelines from the OT, didn't they?  Judaism, Christianity and Islam did.  Who else is there, and where did they get it from?

I believe GOD loves every soul very much.   

We Christians believe this too:

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

And he'll speak to all those souls in many different ways and religions, but not just one religion!

This is where we disagree:

John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Matthew 28:19
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit

[OzmO]

I must say, unless you have one wicked search program,  your command, knowledge and retrieval of related bible scriptures is impressive.

that Jesus never claimed to be GOD

NO, I don't believe that he never claim to be GOD. (I don;t know either way, i wasn;t there)  I believe he may have been saying some of the things he allegedly said in the context of  the concept of GOD is inside all of us.

written by some corrupt people.

I believe they may have believed Jesus was GOD.  That doesn't mean he was.  It only means they believed it and wrote about it accordingly.

These religions took those guidelines from the OT, didn't they?  Judaism, Christianity and Islam did.  Who else is there, and where did they get it from?

How old is the OT?  According to BIBle Scholars:  no more than 6000 years old by tracing the genrations back from Jesus to Adam.

Off the top of my head several civilizations exsisted before that complete with their own religion and moral codes.

Here are a couple of those civilizations:

Egypt
Summeria


There has been much specualtion by both BIBLE scholars and archeologists that much of the first 4 books of the bible were written in 600 BC when the Jews were enslaved by Babylonia and that they "borrowed" much of information in those books from Babylonian texts.

BTW  Islam started in 600 AD.  It's relatively new.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Peter and John are expressing opinions here.  They are expressing what they believe and as i've talked about earlier, many times in human history have people truely believed a person was "a GOD"  (kings/pharohs etc.. being decendants from Gods) so it's not suprising, or telling of whether Jesus was viewed as a GOD on earth or not.

Then Add to that the fact he couldn't perform a miracle tells me very strongly that perhaps the deciples thought of Jesus as a man endowed wit the spirit of GOD rather then GOD himself and viewed it differently then you do do in this day in age.

John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Perhaps at that very time Jesus said that, that was the only way.  Notice he didn't day "forever" or "now"

Matthew 28:19
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit

This is where it's just unrealistic.

In 2000 years there have been litterally 100's of millions of souls who were not exposed to christainity in there life times.  God in his deep love forsaked all those souls?  Of course not.

[loco]

I must say, unless you have one wicked search program,  your command, knowledge and retrieval of related bible scriptures is impressive.

LOL 
Thank you!  Well, I've been reading the Bible for about 30 years, in English and in Spanish.  So I have a good idea of what's there, a general idea of where to find it and more or less what it says.  I do have to look it up because I don't have it all memorized.  I used to use concordances to find what I was looking for, but now I use the Bible Gateway.  There you can search the Bible in many different languages and in many different versions.  Check it out:

http://www.biblegateway.com/

[Tre]

Also,  look at the inconsistant logic:  I wrote that GOD told me this therfore it must be true becuase it says God told me this.

100% correct.

Another thing:  When Adam and Eve ate the Apple (which in reality was them having sex)

100% correct.

"Our way is the only way"  Which is what most religions do especially Christians.

100% correct.

[Butterbean]

Another thing:  When Adam and Eve ate the Apple (which in reality was them having sex)

OzmO, I've never heard this before.  May I ask where you heard it?  And may I ask if you were ever involved in a specific denomination or religion?

what did they become?  God's or Angles?

Genesis says:  Behold they have become one of "US"  (if i remember the verse correctly)

The verse is actually:  And the Lord God said, "The man has now become LIKE one of us, knowing good and evil." Gen 3:22

So they were still "man" - not gods nor angels.

  your command, knowledge and retrieval of related bible scriptures is impressive.

I agree!  I really enjoy reading loco's posts

[loco]

I agree!  I really enjoy reading loco's posts

Thanks STella!  And thank you also for jumping in and helping out with the discussion!   

[Butterbean]

Thanks STella!  And thank you also for jumping in and helping out with the discussion!   

I should be saying that to you!  So I will!  Thank you

[Tre]

OzmO, I've never heard this before.  May I ask where you heard it? 

"Taking a bite of the apple" has been a euphemism for having sex for as long as I can remember. 

But even though the text itself is old, it makes perfect sense when you look at it that way: 

It was after they 'took the bite' that they realized they were 'naked'. 

Sex is one of the two major things in the world (the other being money) that can bring the greatest good - new life - or can do the most damage...adultery, unwanted pregnancies, etc. 

The bible and all the western religions (this includes islam) have a serious preoccupation with sex. 

[OzmO]

OzmO, I've never heard this before.  May I ask where you heard it?  And may I ask if you were ever involved in a specific denomination or religion?

There are actually a few verses inthe bible that indicate it was sex. 

Basically it was a double pregnancy  (Cain from Satan, Abel from Adam)  Eve had sex twice that day.  This is how Satan (original sin) was brought into the human race. 

I don;t have my BIble with me at work but i do hav the verses underlined in it at home.

Off the top pf my head:
1 John 3:12
Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous

(thanks loco for the link)

Anyways,  i leanred this from my friend who is a pastor in a non denominational church who are all pretty much bible literalists.

The Pastor who started the chruch was a man named William Brannon (dead now)  (I got a few of his books somewhere)

[loco]

Basically it was a double pregnancy  (Cain from Satan, Abel from Adam)  Eve had sex twice that day.  This is how Satan (original sin) was brought into the human race. 

LOL...not laughing at you, OzmO.  I just think this sounds funny.  I never heard that one before either.  You learn something new about what other people believe everyday.

(thanks loco for the link)

You are welcome!

[OzmO]

LOL...not laughing at you, OzmO.  I just think this sounds funny.  I never heard that one before either.  You learn something new about what other people believe everyday.

You are welcome!

I spent a year going to this church twice a week.  They seriously follow the Bible word for word. BTW  double pregnancies are possible.

I'll get the verses for you.  Later today or this weekend.

[loco]

I spent a year going to this church twice a week.  They seriously follow the Bible word for word. BTW  double pregnancies are possible.

I'll get the verses for you.  Later today or this weekend.

It's not the double pregnancy, it's the thought of Satan, Adam and Eve having an orgy that's funny.