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Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: ribonucleic on March 01, 2007, 05:02:48 PM

Title: I've been predicting this for months, I tell you... Welcome to the future
Post by: ribonucleic on March 01, 2007, 05:02:48 PM
God I hate having been right about this.  :(
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Colorado to use inmates to fill migrant shortage
Tough laws passed last year against illegal immigration have created a need for farmworkers.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-inmates1mar01%2C0%2C7469220.story?coll=la-home-headlines
Title: Re: I've been predicting this for months, I tell you... Welcome to the future
Post by: Camel Jockey on March 01, 2007, 05:13:00 PM
Now that's fucked up!

Just give all the illegals currently here amnesty and close the borders..  >:(
Title: Re: I've been predicting this for months, I tell you... Welcome to the future
Post by: ribonucleic on March 01, 2007, 05:18:53 PM
A lot of land-based work in the Stalin-era Soviet Union was also done by prison labor, as I recall.

(http://italy.indymedia.org/uploads/2003/01/gulag.jpg)
Title: Re: I've been predicting this for months, I tell you... Welcome to the future
Post by: Hugo Chavez on March 01, 2007, 05:23:37 PM
fuck.... well that's not the right solution ::)
Title: Re: I've been predicting this for months, I tell you... Welcome to the future
Post by: Hugo Chavez on March 01, 2007, 05:24:05 PM
A lot of land-based work in the Stalin-era Soviet Union was also done by prison labor, as I recall.

(http://italy.indymedia.org/uploads/2003/01/gulag.jpg)
and China...
Title: Re: I've been predicting this for months, I tell you... Welcome to the future
Post by: BRUCE on March 01, 2007, 05:28:51 PM
A lot of land-based work in the Stalin-era Soviet Union was also done by prison labor, as I recall.

(http://italy.indymedia.org/uploads/2003/01/gulag.jpg)

You fool.  Perhaps you should consider why Soviet Russia imprisoned such poor men in the Gulag - it was illegal to even tell jokes during this period.  See also the level of treatment dished out in this barbaric era.
 
You reveal yourself, again, as an immensely biased and irrational member by comparing the US prison system to the Soviet Gulag.
Title: Re: I've been predicting this for months, I tell you... Welcome to the future
Post by: ribonucleic on March 01, 2007, 05:36:53 PM
Perhaps you should consider why Soviet Russia imprisoned such poor men in the Gulag

Solzhenitsyn made it seem like some archetypal enactment of man's sinfulness before God. Of course, he was an artist.

But Anne Appelbaum's Gulag: A History suggests that the arrests were, in an odd way, sincere. Once the people had accepted the insane premise that the flourishing of Communism was actually more important than individuals, it was relatively easy to convince themselves that the neighbor must be a foreign spy because they spoke German.

And Stalin's paranoia - whatever else one might say about it - clearly came from the heart.
Title: Re: I've been predicting this for months, I tell you... Welcome to the future
Post by: BRUCE on March 01, 2007, 05:44:36 PM
Solzhenitsyn made it seem like some archetypal enactment of man's sinfulness before God. Of course, he was an artist.

But Anne Appelbaum's Gulag: A History suggests that the arrests were, in an odd way, sincere. Once the people had accepted the insane premise that the flourishing of Communism was actually more important than individuals, it would relatively easy to convince themselves that the neighbor must be a foreign spy because they spoke German.

And Stalin's paranoia - whatever else one might say about it - clearly came from the heart.

How revealing, your apparent support of Stalin and Communism speaks wonders.  How dare you accuse the US of human rights violations when you actively engage the board in applauding such brutalism.  I'll say it again - you're a fool.
Title: Re: I've been predicting this for months, I tell you... Welcome to the future
Post by: ribonucleic on March 01, 2007, 06:12:40 PM
How revealing, your apparent support of Stalin and Communism speaks wonders.  How dare you accuse the US of human rights violations when you actively engage the board in applauding such brutalism. 

Your condemnation of it is kind of ironic. You'd have fit in well there with your passion for doctrinal conformity.

Actually, I think you'd have made an efficient NKVD captain.
Title: Re: I've been predicting this for months, I tell you... Welcome to the future
Post by: BRUCE on March 01, 2007, 06:19:07 PM
Your condemnation of it is kind of ironic. You'd have fit in well there with your passion for doctrinal conformity.

Actually, I think you'd have made an efficient NKVD captain.

Whoops, and followed up with an entirely inaccurate claim against my 'passion' for 'conformity'.  You're building nicely on your reputation here as a far-Left admirer of torture, socialism and anything anti-establishment and/or capitalist.  I understand this is the 'Indymedia' phase of your life you're going through right now, but keep us updated for when you mature into a more developed and reasonable view of the World.

Speaking of which, you'll no doubt enlighten me as to which socialist paradise you currently reside?
Title: Re: I've been predicting this for months, I tell you... Welcome to the future
Post by: ieffinhatecardio on March 01, 2007, 08:16:43 PM
How revealing, your apparent support of Stalin and Communism speaks wonders.  How dare you accuse the US of human rights violations when you actively engage the board in applauding such brutalism.  I'll say it again - you're a fool.

I have a query for you bruce, why do you get so upset over something ribo says about the US? I'm really not picking on you here, I'm actually curious. Why would an Australian get upset when an American criticizes America?

Please try and keep your reply civilized, this was a serious question.
Title: Re: I've been predicting this for months, I tell you... Welcome to the future
Post by: kh300 on March 01, 2007, 08:22:35 PM
my wife moved here from greece when she was 18, only got in because she was a college student.. her family took over 5 years to get here.. many familys try to come to the us the right/legal way but get denied. but why should we allow the people that came here illegally citizenship? to me thats not fair to the people that do it the right way
Title: Re: I've been predicting this for months, I tell you... Welcome to the future
Post by: BRUCE on March 01, 2007, 08:28:33 PM
I have a query for you bruce, why do you get so upset over something ribo says about the US? I'm really not picking on you here, I'm actually curious. Why would an Australian get upset when an American criticizes America?

Please try and keep your reply civilized, this was a serious question.

 Firstly, I'd like to think I'm always civilised when answering a serious question, and I thank you for posing this one.

Actually, I wasn't as riled by RN's comments in terms of its obvious connotations towards the US - I was more struck by his support for a despotic communistic regime, and its brutality against its citizens.  You'll join with me in condemning RN for being a proponent of Stalin's evil empire.

America, by no coincidence, is the World's largest nation economically, and is also militarily the most advanced.  It's a great advocate of the freedoms you and I enjoy daily, and is Australia's closest ally.  It's not secret I have great admiration for the American system and way of life.

In saying this, for a fool like RN to come along and compare America's penal system with that of Stalin’s Soviet Russia is beyond outrageous.  On top of this, he then throws his defence behind the regime that created such incomprehensible breaches of human rights, and simultaneously contradicts his initial contempt for the US' apparent plot to use prisoners as cheap labour.
Title: Re: I've been predicting this for months, I tell you... Welcome to the future
Post by: ieffinhatecardio on March 01, 2007, 08:41:43 PM
Firstly, I'd like to think I'm always civilised when answering a serious question, and I thank you for posing this one.

Actually, I wasn't as riled by RN's comments in terms of its obvious connotations towards the US - I was more struck by his support for a despotic communistic regime, and its brutality against its citizens.  You'll join with me in condemning RN for being a proponent of Stalin's evil empire.

America, by no coincidence, is the World's largest nation economically, and is also militarily the most advanced.  It's a great advocate of the freedoms you and I enjoy daily, and is Australia's closest ally.  It's not secret I have great admiration for the American system and way of life.

In saying this, for a fool like RN to come along and compare America's penal system with that of Stalin’s Soviet Russia is beyond outrageous.  On top of this, he then throws his defence behind the regime that created such incomprehensible breaches of human rights, and simultaneously contradicts his initial contempt for the US' apparent plot to use prisoners as cheap labour.


OK, thanks for the answer.

ribo has a little of 240 in him, meaning that he makes outlandish posts that he probably doesn't whole heartedly believe. At least that's my interpretation.  I think he enjoys getting under the skin of the board's conservatives.

I still find it curious that you would get so riled up over something said about the US. If the roles were reversed and you were arguing with another Australian about Australia it would be a safe bet that none of the American board members would get as upset as you got.
Title: Re: I've been predicting this for months, I tell you... Welcome to the future
Post by: BRUCE on March 01, 2007, 08:50:33 PM
OK, thanks for the answer.

ribo has a little of 240 in him, meaning that he makes outlandish posts that he probably doesn't whole heartedly believe. At least that's my interpretation.  I think he enjoys getting under the skin of the board's conservatives.

I still find it curious that you would get so riled up over something said about the US. If the roles were reversed and you were arguing with another Australian about Australia it would be a safe bet that none of the American board members would get as upset as you got.

Possibly, but we need you more than you need us.  And desperately so.  Need I remind you we have the World's largest Islamic nation a matter of kilometres off our coastline, if they turn nasty, we need friends like the US.

RN strikes me as very serious in what he believes, rather than pretending he's saying things in jest, I'd presume he is intelligent enough to mean what he says.  I take him at his word.
Title: Re: I've been predicting this for months, I tell you... Welcome to the future
Post by: ieffinhatecardio on March 01, 2007, 09:12:55 PM
Possibly, but we need you more than you need us.  And desperately so.  Need I remind you we have the World's largest Islamic nation a matter of kilometres off our coastline, if they turn nasty, we need friends like the US.

RN strikes me as very serious in what he believes, rather than pretending he's saying things in jest, I'd presume he is intelligent enough to mean what he says.  I take him at his word.

I believe ribo is very intelligent. I also believe he likes to stir the pot. I saw a poster yesterday say that ribo wants soldiers to die. Do you believe he wants soldiers to die? I know I don't believe he does but someone read his posts and came to that conclusion.

I understand Australia needs the USA more than the USA needs Australia but that doesn't explain the way you react in defense of the USA. We have multiple Canadians on this board and they have no problem criticizing America, and no ones needs us more than Canada. Well, except for Mexico.  ;D
Title: Re: I've been predicting this for months, I tell you... Welcome to the future
Post by: BRUCE on March 01, 2007, 09:21:50 PM
I believe ribo is very intelligent. I also believe he likes to stir the pot. I saw a poster yesterday say that ribo wants soldiers to die. Do you believe he wants soldiers to die? I know I don't believe he does but someone read his posts and came to that conclusion.

I understand Australia needs the USA more than the USA needs Australia but that doesn't explain the way you react in defense of the USA. We have multiple Canadians on this board and they have no problem criticizing America, and no ones needs us more than Canada. Well, except for Mexico.  ;D

Perhaps you should ask yourself why you are more comfortable with foreigners criticising the US than defending it.

Ribonucleic has stated he wants the US to lose in Iraq.  That means he wants US soldiers to die in the process of losing.  There is no ambiguity there, he concluded for us.
Title: Re: I've been predicting this for months, I tell you... Welcome to the future
Post by: ieffinhatecardio on March 01, 2007, 09:32:44 PM
Perhaps you should ask yourself why you are more comfortable with foreigners criticising the US than defending it.

Ribonucleic has stated he wants the US to lose in Iraq.  That means he wants US soldiers to die in the process of losing.  There is no ambiguity there, he concluded for us.

Of course there's ambiguity, lose can mean different things that don't all mean dead soldiers. I interpret his statements of losing as us pulling out of Iraq which would constitute losing the war without a loss of life. I don't interpret his statements as use losing battles and therefore losing soldiers.

bruce, I live in the USA. I'm used to people criticizing us, if I got upset with every non-citizen that had something negative to say about us then I'd be in a perpetual state of anger.

The fact remains you defend the US as if it were your country, again, I'm not criticizing. I just find it curious.
Title: Re: I've been predicting this for months, I tell you... Welcome to the future
Post by: BRUCE on March 01, 2007, 09:40:13 PM
bruce, I live in the USA. I'm used to people criticizing us, if I got upset with every non-citizen that had something negative to say about us then I'd be in a perpetual state of anger.

The fact remains you defend the US as if it were your country, again, I'm not criticizing. I just find it curious.

No, for you see, you get upset more when someone defends the US, which is obviously in line with your political beliefs.  Your real problem is not that I'm an Australian that defends the US, it's just that I defend the US in the first place.

As for Ribonucleic, your attempts to trivialise something very clear that he stated is worrying.  He didn't say he wanted a withdrawal, he said he wanted a loss.  His choice of words.
Title: Re: I've been predicting this for months, I tell you... Welcome to the future
Post by: 24KT on March 01, 2007, 09:43:36 PM
It's just a revised form of slavery. They've been using prison labour for a while.
They bang out all sorts of nifty things from license plates, to credit cards, to denim jeans.
...all for less than minimum wage. It's corporate america's wet dream. why do think Wackenhut stock did so well. They were building all the prisons.
Title: Re: I've been predicting this for months, I tell you... Welcome to the future
Post by: BRUCE on March 01, 2007, 09:50:36 PM
It's just a revised form of slavery. They've been using prison labour for a while.
They bang out all sorts of nifty things from license plates, to credit cards, to denim jeans.
...all for less than minimum wage. It's corporate america's wet dream. why do think Wackenhut stock did so well. They were building all the prisons.

Oh, those poor inmates.
Title: Re: I've been predicting this for months, I tell you... Welcome to the future
Post by: ieffinhatecardio on March 01, 2007, 09:54:44 PM
No, for you see, you get upset more when someone defends the US, which is obviously in line with your political beliefs.  Your real problem is not that I'm an Australian that defends the US, it's just that I defend the US in the first place.

As for Ribonucleic, your attempts to trivialise something very clear that he stated is worrying.  He didn't say he wanted a withdrawal, he said he wanted a loss.  His choice of words.

Do you really think you're in any position to tell me what I'm thinking? Get off your high horse. All you're doing is obscuring the fact that you care too much about a country that has nothing to do with you. The average high school in the USA has more students than your country (on the other side of the planet) has soldiers in Iraq yet you passionately involve yourself in everything USA. That's curious.

BTW I've had more arguments with jag about the USA than I have with you but why let facts get in the way of your argument.

As I stated, a loss can mean different things that don't involve soldiers dying. I don't believe ribo wants soldiers to die. I believe he wants  Bush to fail.

Title: Re: I've been predicting this for months, I tell you... Welcome to the future
Post by: BRUCE on March 01, 2007, 09:59:34 PM
Do you really think you're in any position to tell me what I'm thinking? Get off your high horse. All you're doing is obscuring the fact that you care too much about a country that has nothing to do with you. The average high school in the USA has more students than your country (on the other side of the planet) has soldiers in Iraq yet you passionately involve yourself in everything USA. That's curious.

BTW I've had more arguments with jag about the USA than I have with you but why let facts get in the way of your argument.

As I stated, a loss can mean different things that don't involve soldiers dying. I don't believe ribo wants soldiers to die. I believe he wants  Bush to fail.

You're an idiot (he is guys, I'm sorry).  I'm done arguing such matters with you.  Come up with an issue to debate me on or find another person to stalk, I'm fed up pleading to you why America is important to me as an Australian.
Title: Re: I've been predicting this for months, I tell you... Welcome to the future
Post by: ieffinhatecardio on March 01, 2007, 10:10:12 PM
You're an idiot (he is guys, I'm sorry).  I'm done arguing such matters with you.  Come up with an issue to debate me on or find another person to stalk, I'm fed up pleading to you why America is important to me as an Australian.

Why do you meltdown so easily?

Who do you think you're apologizing to? Do you really think anyone cares that you called me an idiot? LOL

The "stalking" crap is weak, it makes you look even worse since you only use it when you can't defend yourself.   ::)
Title: Re: I've been predicting this for months, I tell you... Welcome to the future
Post by: Dos Equis on March 01, 2007, 10:39:06 PM
It's just a revised form of slavery. They've been using prison labour for a while.
They bang out all sorts of nifty things from license plates, to credit cards, to denim jeans.
...all for less than minimum wage. It's corporate america's wet dream. why do think Wackenhut stock did so well. They were building all the prisons.

What the . . . . ??!!  Jag you have got to be kidding.  Are you suggesting prison workers should be paid minimum wage?  They are lucky they get paid anything.  Don't forget they get free room and board at my expense. 
Title: Re: I've been predicting this for months, I tell you... Welcome to the future
Post by: BRUCE on March 01, 2007, 11:38:35 PM
What the . . . . ??!!  Jag you have got to be kidding.  Are you suggesting prison workers should be paid minimum wage?  They are lucky they get paid anything.  Don't forget they get free room and board at my expense. 

Isn't it interesting just who some people choose to defend?
Title: Re: I've been predicting this for months, I tell you... Welcome to the future
Post by: OKMike on March 02, 2007, 04:46:40 AM
It is obvious that some people here have no idea about the penal system.  Those people are put there as punishment.  It is good for them to do something productive.  Most inmates want to work.  It makes the time go by faster.
Title: Re: I've been predicting this for months, I tell you... Welcome to the future
Post by: Camel Jockey on March 02, 2007, 12:55:39 PM
On second thought, why not let those fuckers repay their debt to society? Shackle 'em up and let them work for 12 hours a day. By making them work you're teaching them something and by working they'll have less time to form violent gangs.
Title: Re: I've been predicting this for months, I tell you... Welcome to the future
Post by: OzmO on March 02, 2007, 12:59:47 PM
Personally,  after thinking about this for a little while, i'm all for it.


Why not put these people to work?

It might actually help rehabilitate some of them and we can get some basic work done that no one else is wiling to do. 

Now, i think they should have most of the basic rights afforded to free workers also.
Title: Re: I've been predicting this for months, I tell you... Welcome to the future
Post by: 24KT on March 02, 2007, 01:06:06 PM
What the . . . . ??!!  Jag you have got to be kidding.  Are you suggesting prison workers should be paid minimum wage?  They are lucky they get paid anything.  Don't forget they get free room and board at my expense. 

...as did the slaves. They got free room & board at their slave masters expense too.

If you're going to put them to work, ...why should they not be paid minimum wage?

You have a law that supposedly is the law of the land, ...but you make exceptions.

Like all men are created equal and have the right of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness... yada, yada, yada,
...except if they're Black. Then you can enslave them, depriving them of life, liberty and their pursuit of happiness.

Title: Re: I've been predicting this for months, I tell you... Welcome to the future
Post by: Thin Lizzy on March 02, 2007, 01:51:43 PM
...as did the slaves. They got free room & board at their slave masters expense too.

If you're going to put them to work, ...why should they not be paid minimum wage?

You have a law that supposedly is the law of the land, ...but you make exceptions.



Are you completely deranged. You're going to compare slaves to criminals?

When you go to jail, you lose certain rights. Too bad.
Title: Re: I've been predicting this for months, I tell you... Welcome to the future
Post by: 24KT on March 02, 2007, 01:54:36 PM
Are you completely deranged. You're going to compare slaves to criminals?

When you go to jail, you lose certain rights. Too bad.

When neither have rights... there is plenty of room for comparison
Title: Re: I've been predicting this for months, I tell you... Welcome to the future
Post by: Thin Lizzy on March 02, 2007, 02:30:53 PM
When neither have rights... there is plenty of room for comparison

I can't believe you don't see the distinction between someone who lost his rights for behavioral reasons and someone who never had rights to begin with because of skin pigmentation.
Title: Re: I've been predicting this for months, I tell you... Welcome to the future
Post by: BRUCE on March 02, 2007, 02:34:19 PM
...as did the slaves. They got free room & board at their slave masters expense too.

If you're going to put them to work, ...why should they not be paid minimum wage?

You have a law that supposedly is the law of the land, ...but you make exceptions.

Like all men are created equal and have the right of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness... yada, yada, yada,
...except if they're Black. Then you can enslave them, depriving them of life, liberty and their pursuit of happiness.

You spill out some of the most illogical posts I've seen on here.
Title: Re: I've been predicting this for months, I tell you... Welcome to the future
Post by: Dos Equis on March 02, 2007, 04:00:03 PM
...as did the slaves. They got free room & board at their slave masters expense too.

If you're going to put them to work, ...why should they not be paid minimum wage?

You have a law that supposedly is the law of the land, ...but you make exceptions.

Like all men are created equal and have the right of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness... yada, yada, yada,
...except if they're Black. Then you can enslave them, depriving them of life, liberty and their pursuit of happiness.



Jag there is really no comparison between slaves and prisoners.  Slaves were not even considered humans until the 13th Amendment was passed.  Today, no person can be deprived of life, liberty, or the pursuit of happiness without due process of law.  In other words, those rights are conditional on you obeying society's laws.  If you break the law, you get tried, convicted, sentenced, and serve your punishment and you surrender the conditional right to liberty, including the right to be paid for the work you do.

Personally, I would pay them nothing.  We pay tens of thousands per prisoner already.  Have you ever seen a prison?  I have taken several tours and the prison libraries, among other things, are pretty impressive.  We pay for those, along with the food, medical care, and basically everything else a prisoner receives.       
Title: Re: I've been predicting this for months, I tell you... Welcome to the future
Post by: Camel Jockey on March 02, 2007, 04:04:03 PM

Personally, I would pay them nothing.  We pay tens of thousands per prisoner already.  Have you ever seen a prison?  I have taken several tours and the prison libraries, among other things, are pretty impressive.  We pay for those, along with the food, medical care, and basically everything else a prisoner receives.       

Right on the money, old man.  8) Put the fuckers to work..
Title: Re: I've been predicting this for months, I tell you... Welcome to the future
Post by: 24KT on March 03, 2007, 11:23:51 PM
Jag there is really no comparison between slaves and prisoners.  Slaves were not even considered humans until the 13th Amendment was passed.  Today, no person can be deprived of life, liberty, or the pursuit of happiness without due process of law.  In other words, those rights are conditional on you obeying society's laws.  If you break the law, you get tried, convicted, sentenced, and serve your punishment and you surrender the conditional right to liberty, including the right to be paid for the work you do.

Personally, I would pay them nothing.  We pay tens of thousands per prisoner already.  Have you ever seen a prison?  I have taken several tours and the prison libraries, among other things, are pretty impressive.  We pay for those, along with the food, medical care, and basically everything else a prisoner receives.       

I hear what you're saying, ...however, I'm really just against the idea of using prison labour period. There's too much room for abuse. It's like China using the organs of condemned prisoners. It's only a matter of time when guilt or innocence will be irrelevant compared to the profits that can be yielded by having the person in a prison labour pool.
Title: Re: I've been predicting this for months, I tell you... Welcome to the future
Post by: Dos Equis on March 04, 2007, 12:27:23 AM
Right on the money, old man.  8) Put the fuckers to work..

Dude.  I really am almost old enough to be your father.   :o   :'(
Title: Re: I've been predicting this for months, I tell you... Welcome to the future
Post by: tu_holmes on March 04, 2007, 02:55:52 AM
I hear what you're saying, ...however, I'm really just against the idea of using prison labour period. There's too much room for abuse. It's like China using the organs of condemned prisoners. It's only a matter of time when guilt or innocence will be irrelevant compared to the profits that can be yielded by having the person in a prison labour pool.

I agree with this... I'm ok with using them for things that are for the PUBLIC good and not corporate good... Road side cleaning... license plate making... Stuff like that.

Things that would be very difficult to corrupt... Anything that can put money into the pockets of corporations is far too tempting to pervert if you ask me.
Title: Re: I've been predicting this for months, I tell you... Welcome to the future
Post by: OzmO on March 04, 2007, 09:25:34 AM
I agree with this... I'm ok with using them for things that are for the PUBLIC good and not corporate good... Road side cleaning... license plate making... Stuff like that.

Things that would be very difficult to corrupt... Anything that can put money into the pockets of corporations is far too tempting to pervert if you ask me.

shawshank all over again.


Here's what they can do in California:

Help cal-trans stand around and do nothing.

Clean the free ways and road way of trash.  they already have the drunks doing it on weekends

Help clean out and repair inner city slums.


i'm sure there's more we can think of.

   
Title: Re: I've been predicting this for months, I tell you... Welcome to the future
Post by: Dos Equis on March 04, 2007, 10:13:29 AM
I agree with this... I'm ok with using them for things that are for the PUBLIC good and not corporate good... Road side cleaning... license plate making... Stuff like that.

Things that would be very difficult to corrupt... Anything that can put money into the pockets of corporations is far too tempting to pervert if you ask me.

Nooooo, not the corporate boogieman.   :)  What is the difference between the "public good" and "corporate good"?  People actually run these evil corporations.  And although the primary goal of every corporation is profitability for their shareholders, they cannot survive unless they provide a good product and/or good service.  At the end of the day these "corporations" help the public.   
 
Title: Re: I've been predicting this for months, I tell you... Welcome to the future
Post by: tu_holmes on March 04, 2007, 12:47:25 PM
Nooooo, not the corporate boogieman.   :)  What is the difference between the "public good" and "corporate good"?  People actually run these evil corporations.  And although the primary goal of every corporation is profitability for their shareholders, they cannot survive unless they provide a good product and/or good service.  At the end of the day these "corporations" help the public.   
 


You laugh and sarcastically say "Corporate Boogieman", but I bet those people at Enron feel like they were fucked over pretty well.

You can act like corporations care about people, but they do not... They care about the people at the TOP... Most people that work for a corporation are not at the top, but they need the corporation to just put food on the table.

Corporations help the public? That's a stretch... They help the economy... yes, but they mostly help the top one percent right?

I consider that the major difference.

When you have "The public good", everyone no matter their level of income can benefit EQUALLY... In a corporation, the people at the top benefit far more than all of the other people.
Title: Re: I've been predicting this for months, I tell you... Welcome to the future
Post by: 24KT on March 04, 2007, 01:02:01 PM
Nooooo, not the corporate boogieman.   :)  What is the difference between the "public good" and "corporate good"? 

 :o  :o  :o  :o

I can't believe you said that. Dumping toxic waste in a residential area is not good for the "public". It's good for the corporation because they save a fortune on proper waste disposal. Using troops to destroy a country abroad, get killed, maimed, and psychologically incapacitated, so corporations can steal that country's resources is good for the corporation. The death, destruction, maimed, crippled, bodies and minds, is not good for the people, ...neither is leaving them undefended at home, while liable for picking up the price tag.

Quote
People actually run these evil corporations.  And although the primary goal of every corporation is profitability for their shareholders, they cannot survive unless they provide a good product and/or good service.  At the end of the day these "corporations" help the public.   
 

To call many of them 'People' might be a stretch. Lizards is a term that most often comes to mind.
And you say that like you've never heard of corporate welfare.
Title: Re: I've been predicting this for months, I tell you... Welcome to the future
Post by: Dos Equis on March 04, 2007, 01:21:42 PM
Tu and Jag:  I understand there are abuses.  There are abuses by people who supposedly act on behalf of the "public good" too. 

I am looking out my office window right now.  I see a cruise ship, which employs hundreds of our citizens (a public good), provides a highly sought after leisure activity (a public good), and revenue to the community by way of the goods and services purchased by these tourists (a public good).  I'm looking at a number of shops and restaurants who provide these same services to the public.  These are, by and large, "corporations" (or some other business entity:  partnership, LLC, etc.).  They're all benefiting the public.   

And yes "people" run these corporations:  officers, directors, and employees.  There is good and bad that comes with almost everything.  I'm not denying the bad, I'm just saying is a definite benefit most companies provide to the public.   
Title: Re: I've been predicting this for months, I tell you... Welcome to the future
Post by: tu_holmes on March 04, 2007, 01:27:12 PM
Tu and Jag:  I understand there are abuses.  There are abuses by people who supposedly act on behalf of the "public good" too. 

I am looking out my office window right now.  I see a cruise ship, which employs hundreds of our citizens (a public good), provides a highly sought after leisure activity (a public good), and revenue to the community by way of the goods and services purchased by these tourists (a public good).  I'm looking at a number of shops and restaurants who provide these same services to the public.  These are, by and large, "corporations" (or some other business entity:  partnership, LLC, etc.).  They're all benefiting the public.   

And yes "people" run these corporations:  officers, directors, and employees.  There is good and bad that comes with almost everything.  I'm not denying the bad, I'm just saying is a definite benefit most companies provide to the public.   


A cruise is not a public good... sorry... A public good provides more of an inherent need... Repairing and cleaning roads... for instance.

That is a public "leisure"... I do not consider them the same.

I see where you're coming from, but people being employed while good... only benefit those 100 people... We are talking about things that benefit entire regions, areas, and even states or countries.

While the enhancement to the economy is a good thing... It is not a "public" good, such as roads and water / sewer infrastructures.
Title: Re: I've been predicting this for months, I tell you... Welcome to the future
Post by: Dos Equis on March 04, 2007, 01:40:14 PM
A cruise is not a public good... sorry... A public good provides more of an inherent need... Repairing and cleaning roads... for instance.

That is a public "leisure"... I do not consider them the same.

I see where you're coming from, but people being employed while good... only benefit those 100 people... We are talking about things that benefit entire regions, areas, and even states or countries.

While the enhancement to the economy is a good thing... It is not a "public" good, such as roads and water / sewer infrastructures.


Tu the roads are cleaned and repaired with the use of revenue received by the government (at all levels).  This revenue largely comes from taxes and many of these taxes are income taxes (for example, from people who work on cruise ships, restaurants, etc.), nd in Hawaii from sales/general excise taxes (for example, paid by sumers through these businesses).  They're all connected. 

You should have seen what 911 did to Hawaii.  We are dependent on tourism.  When 911 hit, the tourism industry took a huge hit.  The entire state suffered as a result.  The tourism industry provides the state with revenue it needs to maintain the infrastructure. 
Title: Re: I've been predicting this for months, I tell you... Welcome to the future
Post by: tu_holmes on March 04, 2007, 01:48:43 PM
Tu the roads are cleaned and repaired with the use of revenue received by the government (at all levels).  This revenue largely comes from taxes and many of these taxes are income taxes (for example, from people who work on cruise ships, restaurants, etc.), nd in Hawaii from sales/general excise taxes (for example, paid by sumers through these businesses).  They're all connected. 

You should have seen what 911 did to Hawaii.  We are dependent on tourism.  When 911 hit, the tourism industry took a huge hit.  The entire state suffered as a result.  The tourism industry provides the state with revenue it needs to maintain the infrastructure. 


As I said, I see your point, I just don't think our definitions of what "public good" will ever match.
Title: Re: I've been predicting this for months, I tell you... Welcome to the future
Post by: Dos Equis on March 04, 2007, 02:24:21 PM
As I said, I see your point, I just don't think our definitions of what "public good" will ever match.

Fair enough.  I'm not really trying to get you to agree with me.  This is more like an exchange of ideas.  I must also say I'm biased, because I'm a member of "corporate America." 
Title: Re: I've been predicting this for months, I tell you... Welcome to the future
Post by: tu_holmes on March 04, 2007, 02:26:20 PM
Fair enough.  I'm not really trying to get you to agree with me.  This is more like an exchange of ideas.  I must also say I'm biased, because I'm a member of "corporate America." 

I am too... I just happen to work for a corporation who probably has more "Liberals" than other corporations do.
Title: Re: I've been predicting this for months, I tell you... Welcome to the future
Post by: ieffinhatecardio on March 04, 2007, 02:44:22 PM
I agree with this... I'm ok with using them for things that are for the PUBLIC good and not corporate good... Road side cleaning... license plate making... Stuff like that.

Things that would be very difficult to corrupt... Anything that can put money into the pockets of corporations is far too tempting to pervert if you ask me.

I agree with your point about corporations profiting from the use of inmates. I don't see how that's a good idea. Put them to work for the state or local cities and towns where they can be of benefit to all instead of just benefiting a corporation's bottom line.
Title: Re: I've been predicting this for months, I tell you... Welcome to the future
Post by: Wombat on March 05, 2007, 02:21:07 AM
I hear what you're saying, ...however, I'm really just against the idea of using prison labour period. There's too much room for abuse. It's like China using the organs of condemned prisoners. It's only a matter of time when guilt or innocence will be irrelevant compared to the profits that can be yielded by having the person in a prison labour pool.

These guys want to use them for unskilled labor work but how do you think they would feel if they educated these criminals and started using them in skilled areas for 1/4 of the price?  Why would it stop in the fields? 
Title: Re: I've been predicting this for months, I tell you... Welcome to the future
Post by: 240 is Back on March 05, 2007, 05:52:08 AM
When the system suddenly has a MOTIVATION to have more prisoners, it gets dangerous.


When a warden's paycheck bonuses reflect the productivity of his prison work force, you suddenlu have a man in power with a motive to fudge things to keep men in longer and working longer.  When a warden's paycheck reflects the number of organs harvested from his prison, he has a great motive to let health care slide or put people in positions where accidents/injuries are more likely to happen.

You can say "no one would do that" but that's incredibly naive.  Thils 98% probably wouldn't, there are always the 2% who would turn their prison into their own checkbook using human capital.
Title: Re: I've been predicting this for months, I tell you... Welcome to the future
Post by: Cavalier22 on March 05, 2007, 10:26:11 AM
Poor felons.

What they should do is round up all the illegals, make them work for nothing but room and board for 3 years, make them learn english at night,  and afterwards they can become citizens.
Title: Re: I've been predicting this for months, I tell you... Welcome to the future
Post by: Thin Lizzy on March 05, 2007, 10:39:40 AM
These guys want to use them for unskilled labor work but how do you think they would feel if they educated these criminals and started using them in skilled areas for 1/4 of the price?  Why would it stop in the fields? 

LOL

Most of these guys are in jail because they couldn't make it through high school. I don't think they're gonna be taking jobs from MIT grads too soon.
Title: Re: I've been predicting this for months, I tell you... Welcome to the future
Post by: Wombat on March 05, 2007, 09:27:48 PM
LOL

Most of these guys are in jail because they couldn't make it through high school. I don't think they're gonna be taking jobs from MIT grads too soon.

i agree but thats not the point...These guys shouldn't be doing work for corperate america...
Title: Re: I've been predicting this for months, I tell you... Welcome to the future
Post by: Dos Equis on March 06, 2007, 07:28:02 AM
Funny how people accuse the government of all sorts of crimes, but will completely trust the government when it comes to prison labor.   :-\
Title: Re: I've been predicting this for months, I tell you... Welcome to the future
Post by: OzmO on March 06, 2007, 07:36:16 AM
Funny how people accuse the government of all sorts of crimes, but will completely trust the government when it comes to prison labor.   :-\

that's because they believe what bad deal the prisoners get is ok because it can be included in part of their punishment

I'm sure there is a way to control prison labor so it's kosher.
Title: Re: I've been predicting this for months, I tell you... Welcome to the future
Post by: Dos Equis on March 06, 2007, 07:41:35 AM
that's because they believe what bad deal the prisoners get is ok because it can be included in part of their punishment

I'm sure there is a way to control prison labor so it's kosher.

I could care less about kosher, although I understand the need to make things look and sound pretty.  I'm pretty confident "corporate America" is more efficient when it comes to labor than the government. 
Title: Re: I've been predicting this for months, I tell you... Welcome to the future
Post by: BRUCE on March 06, 2007, 02:15:43 PM
I could care less about kosher, although I understand the need to make things look and sound pretty.  I'm pretty confident "corporate America" is more efficient when it comes to labor than the government. 

BB, Mod status?  Congrats - good move, guys!
Title: Re: I've been predicting this for months, I tell you... Welcome to the future
Post by: OzmO on March 06, 2007, 03:34:59 PM
I could care less about kosher, although I understand the need to make things look and sound pretty.  I'm pretty confident "corporate America" is more efficient when it comes to labor than the government. 

no doubt.  What I'm talking about is corruption when it comes to handing out contracts.

Title: Re: I've been predicting this for months, I tell you... Welcome to the future
Post by: Dos Equis on March 06, 2007, 04:06:35 PM
BB, Mod status?  Congrats - good move, guys!

Thanks?   :)
Title: Re: I've been predicting this for months, I tell you... Welcome to the future
Post by: BRUCE on March 06, 2007, 04:08:53 PM
Thanks?   :)

Finally a little more balance, this has to be good for the board.
Title: Re: I've been predicting this for months, I tell you... Welcome to the future
Post by: Dos Equis on March 06, 2007, 04:10:01 PM
no doubt.  What I'm talking about is corruption when it comes to handing out contracts.


Corruption is always a legitimate concern, whether you're dealing with the government or private sectors.  You could argue that the government has more of an incentive to abuse prison labor, because there is less accountability.  A company has to be concerned about the quality of its goods/services and has to maintain profitability.    
Title: Re: I've been predicting this for months, I tell you... Welcome to the future
Post by: OzmO on March 06, 2007, 04:21:46 PM
Corruption is always a legitimate concern, whether you're dealing with the government or private sectors.  You could argue that the government has more of an incentive to abuse prison labor, because there is less accountability.  A company has to be concerned about the quality of its goods/services and has to maintain profitability.   

I strongly agree,  of course as a capitalist!

That's also the difference between what happened at Walter Reed and a normal hospital.

It's a good argument against Nation wide health care.
Title: Re: I've been predicting this for months, I tell you... Welcome to the future
Post by: 24KT on March 06, 2007, 05:01:07 PM
BB, Mod status?  Congrats - good move, guys!

BB a mod of political?? 

:o  :o  :o  :o  :o

...um ...congratulations

(http://www.jaguarenterprises.net/images/FrightenedMouse.gif)

...as she runs shreiking from the room :P
Title: Re: I've been predicting this for months, I tell you... Welcome to the future
Post by: Dos Equis on March 06, 2007, 05:09:02 PM
I strongly agree,  of course as a capitalist!

That's also the difference between what happened at Walter Reed and a normal hospital.

It's a good argument against Nation wide health care.

I agree.
Title: Re: I've been predicting this for months, I tell you... Welcome to the future
Post by: Dos Equis on March 06, 2007, 05:10:14 PM
BB a mod of political?? 

:o  :o  :o  :o  :o

...um ...congratulations

(http://www.jaguarenterprises.net/images/FrightenedMouse.gif)

...as she runs shreiking from the room :P

Darn buttons aren't working.  I thought your account had been deleted already.   ;D
Title: Re: I've been predicting this for months, I tell you... Welcome to the future
Post by: 24KT on March 06, 2007, 05:23:52 PM
Darn buttons aren't working.  I thought your account had been deleted already.   ;D

 >:(
Title: Re: I've been predicting this for months, I tell you... Welcome to the future
Post by: Dos Equis on March 06, 2007, 05:34:52 PM
>:(

 :D
Title: Re: I've been predicting this for months, I tell you... Welcome to the future
Post by: Wombat on March 06, 2007, 05:53:04 PM
I strongly agree,  of course as a capitalist!

That's also the difference between what happened at Walter Reed and a normal hospital.

It's a good argument against Nation wide health care.


good point..