I've been predicting this for months, I tell you... Welcome to the future

[BRUCE]

What the . . . . ??!!  Jag you have got to be kidding.  Are you suggesting prison workers should be paid minimum wage?  They are lucky they get paid anything.  Don't forget they get free room and board at my expense. 

Isn't it interesting just who some people choose to defend?

[OKMike]

It is obvious that some people here have no idea about the penal system.  Those people are put there as punishment.  It is good for them to do something productive.  Most inmates want to work.  It makes the time go by faster.

[Camel Jockey]

On second thought, why not let those fuckers repay their debt to society? Shackle 'em up and let them work for 12 hours a day. By making them work you're teaching them something and by working they'll have less time to form violent gangs.

[OzmO]

Personally,  after thinking about this for a little while, i'm all for it.


Why not put these people to work?

It might actually help rehabilitate some of them and we can get some basic work done that no one else is wiling to do. 

Now, i think they should have most of the basic rights afforded to free workers also.

[24KT]

What the . . . . ??!!  Jag you have got to be kidding.  Are you suggesting prison workers should be paid minimum wage?  They are lucky they get paid anything.  Don't forget they get free room and board at my expense. 

...as did the slaves. They got free room & board at their slave masters expense too.

If you're going to put them to work, ...why should they not be paid minimum wage?

You have a law that supposedly is the law of the land, ...but you make exceptions.

Like all men are created equal and have the right of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness... yada, yada, yada,
...except if they're Black. Then you can enslave them, depriving them of life, liberty and their pursuit of happiness.

[Thin Lizzy]

...as did the slaves. They got free room & board at their slave masters expense too.

If you're going to put them to work, ...why should they not be paid minimum wage?

You have a law that supposedly is the law of the land, ...but you make exceptions.

Are you completely deranged. You're going to compare slaves to criminals?

When you go to jail, you lose certain rights. Too bad.

[24KT]

Are you completely deranged. You're going to compare slaves to criminals?

When you go to jail, you lose certain rights. Too bad.

When neither have rights... there is plenty of room for comparison

[Thin Lizzy]

When neither have rights... there is plenty of room for comparison

I can't believe you don't see the distinction between someone who lost his rights for behavioral reasons and someone who never had rights to begin with because of skin pigmentation.

[BRUCE]

...as did the slaves. They got free room & board at their slave masters expense too.

If you're going to put them to work, ...why should they not be paid minimum wage?

You have a law that supposedly is the law of the land, ...but you make exceptions.

Like all men are created equal and have the right of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness... yada, yada, yada,
...except if they're Black. Then you can enslave them, depriving them of life, liberty and their pursuit of happiness.

You spill out some of the most illogical posts I've seen on here.

[Dos Equis]

...as did the slaves. They got free room & board at their slave masters expense too.

If you're going to put them to work, ...why should they not be paid minimum wage?

You have a law that supposedly is the law of the land, ...but you make exceptions.

Like all men are created equal and have the right of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness... yada, yada, yada,
...except if they're Black. Then you can enslave them, depriving them of life, liberty and their pursuit of happiness.

Jag there is really no comparison between slaves and prisoners.  Slaves were not even considered humans until the 13th Amendment was passed.  Today, no person can be deprived of life, liberty, or the pursuit of happiness without due process of law.  In other words, those rights are conditional on you obeying society's laws.  If you break the law, you get tried, convicted, sentenced, and serve your punishment and you surrender the conditional right to liberty, including the right to be paid for the work you do.

Personally, I would pay them nothing.  We pay tens of thousands per prisoner already.  Have you ever seen a prison?  I have taken several tours and the prison libraries, among other things, are pretty impressive.  We pay for those, along with the food, medical care, and basically everything else a prisoner receives.       

[Camel Jockey]

Personally, I would pay them nothing.  We pay tens of thousands per prisoner already.  Have you ever seen a prison?  I have taken several tours and the prison libraries, among other things, are pretty impressive.  We pay for those, along with the food, medical care, and basically everything else a prisoner receives.       

Right on the money, old man.  Put the fuckers to work..

[24KT]

Jag there is really no comparison between slaves and prisoners.  Slaves were not even considered humans until the 13th Amendment was passed.  Today, no person can be deprived of life, liberty, or the pursuit of happiness without due process of law.  In other words, those rights are conditional on you obeying society's laws.  If you break the law, you get tried, convicted, sentenced, and serve your punishment and you surrender the conditional right to liberty, including the right to be paid for the work you do.

Personally, I would pay them nothing.  We pay tens of thousands per prisoner already.  Have you ever seen a prison?  I have taken several tours and the prison libraries, among other things, are pretty impressive.  We pay for those, along with the food, medical care, and basically everything else a prisoner receives.       

I hear what you're saying, ...however, I'm really just against the idea of using prison labour period. There's too much room for abuse. It's like China using the organs of condemned prisoners. It's only a matter of time when guilt or innocence will be irrelevant compared to the profits that can be yielded by having the person in a prison labour pool.

[Dos Equis]

Right on the money, old man.  Put the fuckers to work..

Dude.  I really am almost old enough to be your father.      

[tu_holmes]

I hear what you're saying, ...however, I'm really just against the idea of using prison labour period. There's too much room for abuse. It's like China using the organs of condemned prisoners. It's only a matter of time when guilt or innocence will be irrelevant compared to the profits that can be yielded by having the person in a prison labour pool.

I agree with this... I'm ok with using them for things that are for the PUBLIC good and not corporate good... Road side cleaning... license plate making... Stuff like that.

Things that would be very difficult to corrupt... Anything that can put money into the pockets of corporations is far too tempting to pervert if you ask me.

[OzmO]

I agree with this... I'm ok with using them for things that are for the PUBLIC good and not corporate good... Road side cleaning... license plate making... Stuff like that.

Things that would be very difficult to corrupt... Anything that can put money into the pockets of corporations is far too tempting to pervert if you ask me.

shawshank all over again.


Here's what they can do in California:

Help cal-trans stand around and do nothing.

Clean the free ways and road way of trash.  they already have the drunks doing it on weekends

Help clean out and repair inner city slums.


i'm sure there's more we can think of.

   

[Dos Equis]

I agree with this... I'm ok with using them for things that are for the PUBLIC good and not corporate good... Road side cleaning... license plate making... Stuff like that.

Things that would be very difficult to corrupt... Anything that can put money into the pockets of corporations is far too tempting to pervert if you ask me.

Nooooo, not the corporate boogieman.     What is the difference between the "public good" and "corporate good"?  People actually run these evil corporations.  And although the primary goal of every corporation is profitability for their shareholders, they cannot survive unless they provide a good product and/or good service.  At the end of the day these "corporations" help the public.   
 

[tu_holmes]

Nooooo, not the corporate boogieman.     What is the difference between the "public good" and "corporate good"?  People actually run these evil corporations.  And although the primary goal of every corporation is profitability for their shareholders, they cannot survive unless they provide a good product and/or good service.  At the end of the day these "corporations" help the public.   
 

You laugh and sarcastically say "Corporate Boogieman", but I bet those people at Enron feel like they were fucked over pretty well.

You can act like corporations care about people, but they do not... They care about the people at the TOP... Most people that work for a corporation are not at the top, but they need the corporation to just put food on the table.

Corporations help the public? That's a stretch... They help the economy... yes, but they mostly help the top one percent right?

I consider that the major difference.

When you have "The public good", everyone no matter their level of income can benefit EQUALLY... In a corporation, the people at the top benefit far more than all of the other people.

[24KT]

Nooooo, not the corporate boogieman.     What is the difference between the "public good" and "corporate good"? 

      

I can't believe you said that. Dumping toxic waste in a residential area is not good for the "public". It's good for the corporation because they save a fortune on proper waste disposal. Using troops to destroy a country abroad, get killed, maimed, and psychologically incapacitated, so corporations can steal that country's resources is good for the corporation. The death, destruction, maimed, crippled, bodies and minds, is not good for the people, ...neither is leaving them undefended at home, while liable for picking up the price tag.

People actually run these evil corporations.  And although the primary goal of every corporation is profitability for their shareholders, they cannot survive unless they provide a good product and/or good service.  At the end of the day these "corporations" help the public.   
 

To call many of them 'People' might be a stretch. Lizards is a term that most often comes to mind.
And you say that like you've never heard of corporate welfare.

[Dos Equis]

Tu and Jag:  I understand there are abuses.  There are abuses by people who supposedly act on behalf of the "public good" too. 

I am looking out my office window right now.  I see a cruise ship, which employs hundreds of our citizens (a public good), provides a highly sought after leisure activity (a public good), and revenue to the community by way of the goods and services purchased by these tourists (a public good).  I'm looking at a number of shops and restaurants who provide these same services to the public.  These are, by and large, "corporations" (or some other business entity:  partnership, LLC, etc.).  They're all benefiting the public.   

And yes "people" run these corporations:  officers, directors, and employees.  There is good and bad that comes with almost everything.  I'm not denying the bad, I'm just saying is a definite benefit most companies provide to the public.   

[tu_holmes]

Tu and Jag:  I understand there are abuses.  There are abuses by people who supposedly act on behalf of the "public good" too. 

I am looking out my office window right now.  I see a cruise ship, which employs hundreds of our citizens (a public good), provides a highly sought after leisure activity (a public good), and revenue to the community by way of the goods and services purchased by these tourists (a public good).  I'm looking at a number of shops and restaurants who provide these same services to the public.  These are, by and large, "corporations" (or some other business entity:  partnership, LLC, etc.).  They're all benefiting the public.   

And yes "people" run these corporations:  officers, directors, and employees.  There is good and bad that comes with almost everything.  I'm not denying the bad, I'm just saying is a definite benefit most companies provide to the public.   

A cruise is not a public good... sorry... A public good provides more of an inherent need... Repairing and cleaning roads... for instance.

That is a public "leisure"... I do not consider them the same.

I see where you're coming from, but people being employed while good... only benefit those 100 people... We are talking about things that benefit entire regions, areas, and even states or countries.

While the enhancement to the economy is a good thing... It is not a "public" good, such as roads and water / sewer infrastructures.

[Dos Equis]

A cruise is not a public good... sorry... A public good provides more of an inherent need... Repairing and cleaning roads... for instance.

That is a public "leisure"... I do not consider them the same.

I see where you're coming from, but people being employed while good... only benefit those 100 people... We are talking about things that benefit entire regions, areas, and even states or countries.

While the enhancement to the economy is a good thing... It is not a "public" good, such as roads and water / sewer infrastructures.

Tu the roads are cleaned and repaired with the use of revenue received by the government (at all levels).  This revenue largely comes from taxes and many of these taxes are income taxes (for example, from people who work on cruise ships, restaurants, etc.), nd in Hawaii from sales/general excise taxes (for example, paid by sumers through these businesses).  They're all connected. 

You should have seen what 911 did to Hawaii.  We are dependent on tourism.  When 911 hit, the tourism industry took a huge hit.  The entire state suffered as a result.  The tourism industry provides the state with revenue it needs to maintain the infrastructure. 

[tu_holmes]

Tu the roads are cleaned and repaired with the use of revenue received by the government (at all levels).  This revenue largely comes from taxes and many of these taxes are income taxes (for example, from people who work on cruise ships, restaurants, etc.), nd in Hawaii from sales/general excise taxes (for example, paid by sumers through these businesses).  They're all connected. 

You should have seen what 911 did to Hawaii.  We are dependent on tourism.  When 911 hit, the tourism industry took a huge hit.  The entire state suffered as a result.  The tourism industry provides the state with revenue it needs to maintain the infrastructure. 

As I said, I see your point, I just don't think our definitions of what "public good" will ever match.

[Dos Equis]

As I said, I see your point, I just don't think our definitions of what "public good" will ever match.

Fair enough.  I'm not really trying to get you to agree with me.  This is more like an exchange of ideas.  I must also say I'm biased, because I'm a member of "corporate America." 

[tu_holmes]

Fair enough.  I'm not really trying to get you to agree with me.  This is more like an exchange of ideas.  I must also say I'm biased, because I'm a member of "corporate America." 

I am too... I just happen to work for a corporation who probably has more "Liberals" than other corporations do.

[ieffinhatecardio]

I agree with this... I'm ok with using them for things that are for the PUBLIC good and not corporate good... Road side cleaning... license plate making... Stuff like that.

Things that would be very difficult to corrupt... Anything that can put money into the pockets of corporations is far too tempting to pervert if you ask me.

I agree with your point about corporations profiting from the use of inmates. I don't see how that's a good idea. Put them to work for the state or local cities and towns where they can be of benefit to all instead of just benefiting a corporation's bottom line.