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Getbig Misc Discussion Boards => Religious Debates & Threads => Topic started by: _Morrison_ on April 07, 2007, 04:54:24 PM
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Now that I have your attention, here's a thought.
This is for all you hardcore Christian believers out there: I consider myself a generally good person. I don't f*ck people over, I don't do things out of malicious intent, and I try to be nice to people. Here's the catch: I do not believe that Jesus Christ was the "son" of God, or -that the "Virgin" Mary was actually a virgin at all. Am I going to hell for that? Brimstone and all.
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Now that I have your attention, here's a thought.
This is for all you hardcore Christian believers out there: I consider myself a generally good person. I don't f*ck people over, I don't do things out of malicious intent, and I try to be nice to people. Here's the catch: I do not believe that Jesus Christ was the "son" of God, or -that the "Virgin" Mary was actually a virgin at all. Am I going to hell for that? Brimstone and all.
nope..that'd just make you a muslim..
according to muslims jesus ws just another prophet of god..the rest is pretty similar to the bible..
no wait..this site woyld have ya believe a muslims not blowing shit up aint exactly a muslims at all..
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According to christians you are, but according to me and some other people you are not. You are nice because you feel it's the right thing to do as a service to your fellow man. You get morals through your own moral phiolosophy and not some book. You are nice, not for fear of the some boggeyman in the sky, but for the love of your fellow man.
Junaid, what are you babbling on about? ???
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According to christians you are, but according to me and some other people you are not. You are nice because you feel it's the right thing to do as a service to your fellow man. You get morals through your own moral phiolosophy and not some book. You are nice, not for fear of the some boggeyman in the sky, but for the love of your fellow man.
Junaid, that are you babbling on about? ???
this guy ws looking for god....
i ws being nice..hense i didn't burst his bubble ...
empathy. ;)
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this guy ws looking for god....
i ws being nice..hense i didn't burst his bubble ...
empathy. ;)
Don't mind me.. No drink tonight. :(
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this guy ws looking for god....
i ws being nice..hense i didn't burst his bubble ...
empathy. ;)
Yeah, but I'm not Muslim. In fact, I think being Muslim is just as (if not more) stupid than being a hardcore Christian. Why? Killing sucks and so does the belittlement of the other gender.
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According to christians you are, but according to me and some other people you are not. You are nice because you feel it's the right thing to do as a service to your fellow man. You get morals through your own moral phiolosophy and not some book. You are nice, not for fear of the some boggeyman in the sky, but for the love of your fellow man.
Junaid, that are you babbling on about? ???
Dude, you read that statement like a book.
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. Why? Killing sucks and so does the belittlement of the other gender.
wow...you actually believe 1.4 BILLION muslims on this planet actually believe that...
i better tell me dad to treat my mum and sister bad..or they wont qualify as muslims..lol ::)
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wow...you actually believe 1.4 BILLION muslims on this planet actually believe that...
i better tell me dad to treat my mum and sister bad..or they wont qualify as muslims..lol ::)
haha sorry if I offended you there, dude
I was really just referring to extremists, kind of like that guy who tore his wife's eyes out, or the guys (that'd be anybody) who hate Jews for being Jews. That's pretty messed up.
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haha sorry if I offended you there, dude
I was really just referring to extremists, kind of like that guy who tore his wife's eyes out, or the guys (that'd be anybody) who hate Jews for being Jews. That's pretty messed up.
90 % of muslims on this planet live in uneducated 3rd world countries..
its surprising why people fail to see the corrolation between uneducation and stupid beliefs.. :-\
that guy that ripped his wifes eyes out..do you actually believe he had any amount of education mate ? :-\
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90 % of muslims on this planet live in uneducated 3rd world countries..
its surprising why people fail to see the corrolation between uneducation and stupid beliefs.. :-\
that guy that ripped his wifes eyes out..do you actually believe he had any amount of education mate ? :-\
You have a very good point, but try to forgive my ignorace because of two things: I'm white, and I live in California. That sould explain everything.
But you're right, poeple who do these things usually aren't very bright, and if they were, we may be having some problems. If God or whatever made douchebags smart, we'd have more leaders like President Bush.
Any belief, however, that belittles anyone because they are taught to be inferior (i.e. that fucked up place in Colorado) is messed up.
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You have a very good point, but try to forgive my ignorace because of two things: I'm white, and I live in California. That sould explain everything.
But you're right, poeple who do these things usually aren't very bright, and if they were, we may be having some problems. If God or whatever made douchebags smart, we'd have more leaders like President Bush.
Any belief, however, that belittles anyone because they are taught to be inferior (i.e. that fucked up place in Colorado) is messed up.
now lemme preface this with ..i'm not exactly a bush fan..but..having been in pakistan till the age of 15(1992)..and then visiting in 1999..ya see things..
when a father gets himself and his 2 kids botched amputations ( 1999 i met someone like this)JUST SO people will feel sorry for em and give em money to eat..its one fuc k ing tough life..
now that father might consider himself muslim...right? BUT..the dood is at his wits end (for gawds sake he got his kids to get amputated so they'd have enough money to eat..hey..people give MORE to amputees ..would you?)..and someone like him..some douchebag afghani imam (AFGHANI imam ..who is already resentfull towards the US ) preaches some hatered in some out of the way mosque in some place in pakistan..guess what..these people desperate with life ARE GONNA BELIEVE HIM....it happens all over the place bro..it aint right..its sad..
i'm actually an athiect..and most of my friends are white..BUT..that does not keep me from seeing and understanding both sides of the story...no ones born evil man..
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now lemme preface this with ..i'm not exactly a bush fan..but..having been in pakistan till the age of 15(1992)..and then visiting in 1999..ya see things..
when a father gets himself and his 2 kids botched amputations ( 1999 i met someone like this)JUST SO people will feel sorry for em and give em money to eat..its one fuc k ing tough life..
now that father might consider himself muslim...right? BUT..the dood is at his wits end (for gawds sake he got his kids to get amputated so they'd have enough money to eat..hey..people give MORE to amputees ..would you?)..and someone like him..some douchebag afghani imam (AFGHANI imam ..who is already resentfull towards the US ) preaches some hatered in some out of the way mosque in some place in pakistan..guess what..these people desperate with life ARE GONNA BELIEVE HIM....it happens all over the place bro..it aint right..its sad..
i'm actually an athiect..and most of my friends are white..BUT..that does not keep me from seeing and understanding both sides of the story...no ones born evil man..
Yeah I kinda already knew that about no one being born evil. The angry follow whatever fuels their anger so that maybe their anger can end. That's human nature. Sorry to hear about that dude you met, too.
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Now that I have your attention, here's a thought.
This is for all you hardcore Christian believers out there: I consider myself a generally good person. I don't f*ck people over, I don't do things out of malicious intent, and I try to be nice to people. Here's the catch: I do not believe that Jesus Christ was the "son" of God, or -that the "Virgin" Mary was actually a virgin at all. Am I going to hell for that? Brimstone and all.
The Bible claims that the only way to His Eternal Kingdom is through Christ. So yeah you are going to hell according to the bible. But let God be the judge of that.
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Yeah, but I'm not Muslim. In fact, I think being Muslim is just as (if not more) stupid than being a hardcore Christian. Why? Killing sucks and so does the belittlement of the other gender.
The Muslim religion is a bullshit one. Claiming Jesus was just a prophet. Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega...the beginning and the end. There were no more prophets after Him. Not Mohamed not anyone.
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The Muslim religion is a bullshit one. Claiming Jesus was just a prophet. Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega...the beginning and the end. There were no more prophets after Him. Not Mohamed not anyone.
Yeah okay. And what kind of factual evidence do you have of this except for something you read in a book? And if your answer is that it's just what you believe or it's what you were taught, then don't even mention it because the only people who care are the ones who ask and the ones who already believe it.
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Yeah I kinda already knew that about no one being born evil.
what about original sin in christianity??
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The Muslim religion is a bullshit one. Claiming Jesus was just a prophet. Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega...the beginning and the end. There were no more prophets after Him. Not Mohamed not anyone.
I have a book that says it is the word of god and god is a shoe stuffed with peppers.
Therefore it must be true?
Can you prove Jesus is the alpha and the omega without using the Bible
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I have enough testimonies to last me a lifetime.
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I have enough testimonies to last me a lifetime.
I'm sure that's true about buddists, Hindus, Jews and Muslims. People give testimony to alien abductions, ghosts, the virgin Mary etc....
So by that logic, all those things are true and proven also, so a lifetime of testimonies don't mean much.
Is that all you have that supports or proves Jesus is the Alpha and Omega beisdes a book that was obviously put together to reaffirm his divinity?
Is there anything else outside your strong personal faith that you can provide?
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I'm sure that's true about buddists, Hindus, Jews and Muslims. People give testimony to alien abductions, ghosts, the virgin Mary etc....
So by that logic, all those things are true and proven also, so a lifetime of testimonies don't mean much.
Is that all you have that supports or proves Jesus is the Alpha and Omega beisdes a book that was obviously put together to reaffirm his divinity?
Is there anything else outside your strong personal faith that you can provide?
My Faith is my Faith and I stand by it.
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My Faith is my Faith and I stand by it.
As you should.
Just wondering if you had anything to back up your statement of "fact" which really was a statement of "faith".
Certainly nothing wrong or untrue with your faith. But it is what it is.
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My Faith is my Faith and I stand by it.
That's fantastic. And that's also what every other gigantic Christian out there says when confronted with the fact that there is absolutely no evidence to support their faith. Way to hide your head up your ass there, dude because there's no way I can argue with it being your personal faith without insulting you.
But whatever, man. Believe what you want to believe. It's none of my business.
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what about original sin in christianity??
I'm not Christian so that doesn't apply.
Oh and, I think people are generally good, but the bad side of human nature dictates what they do when angered and in groups.
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nope..that'd just make you a muslim..
according to muslims jesus ws just another prophet of god..the rest is pretty similar to the bible..
no wait..this site woyld have ya believe a muslims not blowing shit up aint exactly a muslims at all..
Haha you're comically stupid.
I like your muslim PR work recently, so much false information it's hilarious!
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One has to remember, that when looking what the 'Bible' says about one subject or another is that the Bible is not a single book written by a single author. It is a compilation of dozens of books written by dozens of authors who lived in very different times from each other. The tanach (1st 5 books of the bible) is what the jews generally follow and has all sorts of rules about how to live. Rules including not shaving ones sideburns, refraining from eating shrimp or swine etc.
The Gospels generally have less rules about how not to avoid hell and include...
Believe in Jesus (Acts 4:12)
Baptism (John 3:3-5)
Repent and be baptized (Acts 2:38)
Do good works (James 2:24, Revelations 20:12-13)
Have children (1 Timothy 2:15)
And lastly, Do nothing (Titus 3:4-7)
Various denominations place different emphasis on the various methods of 'salvation'. Catholics emphasize baptism and penance while protestants emphasize "grace" and Calvinists emphasize being "born again" by baptism or redemption.
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The Muslim religion is a bullshit one. Claiming Jesus was just a prophet. Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega...the beginning and the end. There were no more prophets after Him. Not Mohamed not anyone.
jerseyhurricane,
be nice. I admire you faith, but we must present the truth in love. ;D
1 Peter 3:15
"Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect"
Ephesians 4:15
"Instead, speaking the truth in love"
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I do not believe that Jesus Christ was the "son" of God, or -that the "Virgin" Mary was actually a virgin at all. Am I going to hell for that? Brimstone and all.
According to christians you are
No, Camel Jockey, not according to Christians. But According to Jesus Christ Himself.
John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Ephesians 2:8-9
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast."
John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
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The Bible claims that the only way to His Eternal Kingdom is through Christ. So yeah you are going to hell according to the bible. But let God be the judge of that.
_Morrison_,
Listen to jerseyhurricane. He is telling you the truth.
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what about original sin in christianity??
Original sin is a Roman Catholic Church thing. It is not biblical. Not all Christians believe in it. We are responsible for our own sins.
Romans 5:12
"Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned"
Romans 3:23
"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,"
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Now that I have your attention, here's a thought.
This is for all you hardcore Christian believers out there: I consider myself a generally good person. I don't f*ck people over, I don't do things out of malicious intent, and I try to be nice to people. Here's the catch: I do not believe that Jesus Christ was the "son" of God, or -that the "Virgin" Mary was actually a virgin at all. Am I going to hell for that? Brimstone and all.
According to Christianity, yes.
Without a doubt.
The only sin that cannot be forgiven, is to not acknowledge God and Jesus as his Son, and the holy spirit, the Trinity.
-Hedge
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My Faith is my Faith and I stand by it.
jerseyhurricane,
Again, I admire your faith!
I'm sure that's true about buddists, Hindus, Jews and Muslims. People give testimony to alien abductions, ghosts, the virgin Mary etc....
OzmO,
No, it is not true. Only Christians claim to have been transformed by Jesus Christ. Only Jesus changes people, only He changes lives. He changed mine and jerseyhurricane's, and many others right in front of my eyes, no greater miracle than that in my opinion.
so a lifetime of testimonies don't mean much.
Oh, yes they do mean a whole lot.
Is that all you have that supports or proves Jesus is the Alpha and Omega beisdes a book that was obviously put together to reaffirm his divinity?
OzmO,
You and I have been over this and you have come up with no proof that the Bible "was obviously put together to reaffirm his divinity"
Is there anything else outside your strong personal faith that you can provide?
I can. I have provided it time after time, but nobody will say anything else about it. There is plenty of evidence in history, archeology and science in general that show the Bible is more than just a book. No other religious book compares to the Bible. The Bible says that Jesus is the only way, that Jesus is the Alpha and Omega. Based on the evidence that the Bible is more than just a book, I would be looking more into this if I were you, instead of simply dismissing it like you guys do. If you are right about the Bible, good for you! But if you are wrong, you are eternally, dead wrong.
1. Personally, when I decided to start reading the Bible on my own and I applied what I learned to my own life, my life improved tremendously. My relationships, my health, my finances, my whole outlook in life and my attitude toward my troubles improved tremendously. And I wasn't even a Christian then. Once I became a Christian, things got even better. I have also seen throughout my life many people have the same experience once they decided to read the Bible on their own and applied what they learned to their life.
2. Faith. The Bible says that the Bible is the word of GOD and I believe it.
"For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost" 2 Peter 1:21
"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" 2 Timothy 3:16
3. Fulfilled Prophecy. The Bible is the only religious book that contains fulfilled prophecy. Some of it has already been fulfilled throughout history, even in our own generation.
http://www.100prophecies.org/
4. Checkable Biblical Accuracy
http://www.doesgodexist.org/Charts/CheckableBiblicalAccuracy.html
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jerseyhurricane,
be nice. I admire you faith, but we must present the truth in love. ;D
You're right...I was wrong to judge. I am human...I am a sinner. I just hope through Jesus that I can be forgiven when the time comes.
Loco...you're a good person.
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The Muslim religion is a bullshit one. Claiming Jesus was just a prophet. Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega...the beginning and the end. There were no more prophets after Him. Not Mohamed not anyone.
I always find it ironic when one religious person criticizes another religion for it's tenants.
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According to Christianity, yes.
Without a doubt.
The only sin that cannot be forgiven, is to not acknowledge God and Jesus as his Son, and the holy spirit, the Trinity.
-Hedge
That is why that particular piece of Christianity is rubbish.
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I always find it ironic when one religious person criticizes another religion for it's tenants.
I find it amusing.
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_Morrison_,
Listen to jerseyhurricane. He is telling you the truth.
The truth is always debatable. Let's just agree to disagree on this one.
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If you are right about the Bible, good for you! But if you are wrong, you are eternally, dead wrong.
So what you're saying is that you'd rather go with whatever faith seems proven enough just as a backup plan in case the whole fire and brimstone thing is true? Or are you saying that we should?
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You're right...I was wrong to judge. I am human...I am a sinner. I just hope through Jesus that I can be forgiven when the time comes.
Loco...you're a good person.
jerseyhurricane,
I'm no saint. I would not be surprised if one day you found me here doing the same thing. When you do, please do call me on it and remind me to be nice.
;D
God bless you, brother!
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So what you're saying is that you'd rather go with whatever faith seems proven enough just as a backup plan in case the whole fire and brimstone thing is true?
No, that's not what I'm saying.
Or are you saying that we should?
That we should what?
All I'm saying is that you asked a question
I do not believe that Jesus Christ was the "son" of God, or -that the "Virgin" Mary was actually a virgin at all. Am I going to hell for that? Brimstone and all?
and you addressed the question to
for all you hardcore Christian believers
The NON-Christians here told you what you wanted to hear, that no, you are not going to hell for that.
The Christians here kindly and honestly answered your question with the truth, that Yes, you are going to hell for that. But we also gave you a way out, believe in Jesus and you will be saved.
All I'm saying is rather than listen to the skeptics and dismiss Jesus Christ just like that, why not give it a chance and do some more investigating of your own? Read the gospel of John, followed by Romans. You are welcome to ask me questions about what you are reading. Look into all the evidence out there that Jesus is unique, that the Bible is unique. Don't just take my word for it, go look for yourself. Take a look at those links that I posted above. In the process, you may end up believing in Jesus by faith, then you won't go to hell.
Don't just take the skeptics word for it, that you are not going to hell. It's your soul after all.
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OzmO,
No, it is not true. Only Christians claim to have been transformed by Jesus Christ. Only Jesus changes people, only He changes lives. He changed mine and jerseyhurricane's, and many others right in front of my eyes, no greater miracle than that in my opinion.
Oh, yes they do mean a whole lot.
OzmO,
You and I have been over this and you have come up with no proof that the Bible "was obviously put together to reaffirm his divinity"
I can. I have provided it time after time, but nobody will say anything else about it. There is plenty of evidence in history, archeology and science in general that show the Bible is more than just a book. No other religious book compares to the Bible. The Bible says that Jesus is the only way, that Jesus is the Alpha and Omega. Based on the evidence that the Bible is more than just a book, I would be looking more into this if I were you, instead of simply dismissing it like you guys do. If you are right about the Bible, good for you! But if you are wrong, you are eternally, dead wrong.
Are you saying buddists, Hindus, muslims and Jews don't have spiritual experiences? I'm sure you aren't. Are all those experiences from the devil? com'on loco. That's why i say a lifetime of testimonies don;t mean much. every religion has a spiritual base that's constantly renewed through the experiences of it's followers
And yes we have been through this many times, and every time you've only quoted the bible nothing more. You can't use as proof of the books assertions passages in the book. Like i said i have a book that says my cat is God. Therefore it must be true.
The Bible has some historical record. Just because you find the city of Sodom doesn't make everything in the Bible true and the word of God.
no other book compares to the bible? In what way are we comparing it? Objective or subjective?
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Are you saying buddists, Hindus, muslims and Jews don't have spiritual experiences? I'm sure you aren't. Are all those experiences from the devil? com'on loco. That's why i say a lifetime of testimonies don;t mean much. every religion has a spiritual base that's constantly renewed through the experiences of it's followers
No, sir, not talking about mere "spiritual experiences" or "a spiritual base that's constantly renewed through the experiences of it's followers". I am talking about much more, something very specific that is a very important part of Christianity.
2 Corinthians 5:17
"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!"
John 3:3
In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."
Nobody can have faith in Jesus Christ and be the same person after that. Jesus will change you as a person and He will change your life. I am talking about a radical change, from one extreme to the other. Jesus changed my life. Jesus changed me forever.
Jews? Paul, Saul of Tarsus is one of millions of great examples. He was a devout Jew, well educated, who persecuted Christians with zeal, then Jesus changed him. He became a devout Christian, wrote most of the New Testament, spread Christianity all over the Roman Empire of his time. For that he was persecuted, tortured and killed for his belief in Jesus. Christianity started with Jews, and was spread by Jews.
I know former, devout Muslims who used to hate Christians and Jews. They were radically changed by Jesus Christ. Now they are Christians and they love Jews, and they are persecuted for leaving Islam. They testify that there is no spiritual experience in Islam that can compare.
I know former, devout Buddhists from Cambodia, China and Vietnam who were changed by Jesus Christ. They testify that there is no spiritual experience in Buddhism that can compare.
Most of my friends are from India, many are former Hindus...same story as above.
The list goes on and on.
Only in Christianity is this radical change expected, and it's something you can't fake. People who think themselves Christians, yet have never experienced this change are mistaken and have not yet really put their faith in Jesus Christ.
Only Christianity has a leader, Jesus, who claimed to be God. Only Christianity has a leader whose bones where never found, because Jesus died and rose again.
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And yes we have been through this many times, and every time you've only quoted the bible nothing more.
Every time? I have only quoted the bible and nothing more? Come on, OzmO, why would you say something false like that about me? Let's be honest and truthful here. You know that I have done much more than only quote the bible? Have you even read any of the links that I have posted before? I have read all the links that you have posted for me and commented on them.
This evidence is much more than just quoting the Bible. Please read the whole thing at your convenience and explain every single one of them if you can!
Fulfilled Prophecy. The Bible is the only religious book that contains fulfilled prophecy. Some of it has already been fulfilled throughout history, even in our own generation.
http://www.100prophecies.org/
Checkable Biblical Accuracy
http://www.doesgodexist.org/Charts/CheckableBiblicalAccuracy.html
Biblical Archaeology
http://www.allaboutarchaeology.org/biblical-archaeology.htm
Extra-Biblical and Non-Christian evidence that Jesus Christ did exist
http://www.jewsforjesus.org/publications/issues/5_5/noevidence
Evidence that the Gospels were written before 70 AD and that they are accurate and reliable
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/bibleorigin.php
The Bible has some historical record. Just because you find the city of Sodom doesn't make everything in the Bible true and the word of God.
Wrong, the Bible has much more than just that. Read all the links above.
no other book compares to the bible? In what way are we comparing it? Objective or subjective?
That's right. No other book can compare to the Bible. Read above.
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I do not believe that Jesus Christ was the "son" of God, or -that the "Virgin" Mary was actually a virgin at all. Am I going to hell for that? Brimstone and all.
_Morrison_
Actually, the right answer to your question is this:
According to the Bible, yes, you are going to hell, but NOT because of that.
You are going to hell because you are choosing to pay for all your own sins.
"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 6:23
Even though you are a good person, you have sinned. And your good deeds do not erase your bad deeds. Your good works can't save you.
As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; Romans 3:10
"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God," Romans 3:23
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God. not by works, so that no one can boast." Ephesians 2:8-9
God does not want you to go to hell and that is why he sent his only Son Jesus to die for your sins, in your place. If you have faith in Jesus and in what He did for you, then you will NOT go to hell.
"But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." Romans 5:8
We deserve eternal death in hell for our sins, but instead God offers you the gift of eternal life through Jesus Christ.
for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." Romans 10:13
This is God's promise that if we call on the name of the Lord, we will be saved...not maybe...but will.
Here the Bible tells us how to call on the Lord:
That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. Romans 10:9-10
Whatever your sin, God will forgive and forget just as long as you repent and accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior.
"Come now, let us reason together," says the LORD. "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool. Isaiah 1:18
"And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life." 1 John 5:11-13
"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:9
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No, sir, not talking about mere "spiritual experiences" or "a spiritual base that's constantly renewed through the experiences of it's followers". I am talking about much more, something very specific that is a very important part of Christianity.
2 Corinthians 5:17
"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!"
John 3:3
In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."
Nobody can have faith in Jesus Christ and be the same person after that. Jesus will change you as a person and He will change your life. I am talking about a radical change, from one extreme to the other. Jesus changed my life. Jesus changed me forever.
Jews? Paul, Saul of Tarsus is one of millions of great examples. He was a devout Jew, well educated, who persecuted Christians with zeal, then Jesus changed him. He became a devout Christian, wrote most of the New Testament, spread Christianity all over the Roman Empire of his time. For that he was persecuted, tortured and killed for his belief in Jesus. Christianity started with Jews, and was spread by Jews.
I know former, devout Muslims who used to hate Christians and Jews. They were radically changed by Jesus Christ. Now they are Christians and they love Jews, and they are persecuted for leaving Islam. They testify that there is no spiritual experience in Islam that can compare.
I know former, devout Buddhists from Cambodia, China and Vietnam who were changed by Jesus Christ. They testify that there is no spiritual experience in Buddhism that can compare.
Most of my friends are from India, many are former Hindus...same story as above.
The list goes on and on.
Only in Christianity is this radical change expected, and it's something you can't fake. People who think themselves Christians, yet have never experienced this change are mistaken and have not yet really put their faith in Jesus Christ.
Only Christianity has a leader, Jesus, who claimed to be God. Only Christianity has a leader whose bones where never found, because Jesus died and rose again.
All due respect.... and you deserve it all......
Your experiences are but mere scores in a see of 6 billion other souls who of which many have had spiritual experiences that radically changed their lives. Of course they are not like "Jesus" because they don't involve him.
These spiritual changes are with God's help in both Christian and non-Christian religions.
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Every time? I have only quoted the bible and nothing more? Come on, OzmO, why would you say something false like that about me? Let's be honest and truthful here. You know that I have done much more than only quote the bible? Have you even read any of the links that I have posted before? I have read all the links that you have posted for me and commented on them.
This evidence is much more than just quoting the Bible. Please read the whole thing at your convenience and explain every single one of them if you can!
Fulfilled Prophecy. The Bible is the only religious book that contains fulfilled prophecy. Some of it has already been fulfilled throughout history, even in our own generation.
http://www.100prophecies.org/
Checkable Biblical Accuracy
http://www.doesgodexist.org/Charts/CheckableBiblicalAccuracy.html
Biblical Archaeology
http://www.allaboutarchaeology.org/biblical-archaeology.htm
Extra-Biblical and Non-Christian evidence that Jesus Christ did exist
http://www.jewsforjesus.org/publications/issues/5_5/noevidence
Evidence that the Gospels were written before 70 AD and that they are accurate and reliable
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/bibleorigin.php
Wrong, the Bible has much more than just that. Read all the links above.
That's right. No other book can compare to the Bible. Read above.
the question was can you substantiate your claims with evidence outside the bible. I haven't took the time to read all those links, but based on the titles they all seems to involve the Bible. I get to them soon.
Don't get me wrong. I believe Jesus existed. But where is evidence outside the bible that supports his divinity?
And are you sure there are no other books ever written that contain fulfilled prophecy? I find that hard to believe.
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All due respect.... and you deserve it all......
Thank you! ;D
Your experiences are but mere scores in a see of 6 billion other souls who of which many have had spiritual experiences that radically changed their lives. Of course they are not like "Jesus" because they don't involve him.
These spiritual changes are with God's help in both Christian and non-Christian religions.
I see what you are saying, but I named people I know, people known through history and I quote the Bible, all in addition to my own experience. I didn't just make statements.
Can you do the same to support your bold statements? What's your experience? Name some people. Where did you get the 6 billion from? Who are these people? Quote some other religious text outside the Bible.
Give me something.
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the question was can you substantiate your claims with evidence outside the bible. I haven't took the time to read all those links, but based on the titles they all seems to involve the Bible. I get to them soon.
Yes, they are evidence outside the Bible, which show the Bible is more than just another book. They show that our faith in the Bible is not blind faith.
You said that every time I only quote the Bible and nothing more. That's not true. I have been giving you evidence from history and archeology. That's not only quoting the Bible.
Don't get me wrong. I believe Jesus existed. But where is evidence outside the bible that supports his divinity?
Where are his bones? Plus, if you have evidence that the Bible is reliable, see above, then you can believe the Bible when it supports His divinity. Of course, we are saved through faith. So in the end, we must have faith. The evidence is just to give an account, a reason for our faith. The evidence is to show skeptics that ours is not blind faith.
And are you sure there are no other books ever written that contain fulfilled prophecy? I find that hard to believe.
Yes, I'm sure. But you are welcome prove me wrong.
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_Morrison_
Actually, the right answer to your question is this:
According to the Bible, yes, you are going to hell, but NOT because of that.
You are going to hell because you are choosing to pay for all your own sins.
"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 6:23
Even though you are a good person, you have sinned. And your good deeds do not erase your bad deeds. Your good works can't save you.
As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; Romans 3:10
"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God," Romans 3:23
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God. not by works, so that no one can boast." Ephesians 2:8-9
God does not want you to go to hell and that is why he sent his only Son Jesus to die for your sins, in your place. If you have faith in Jesus and in what He did for you, then you will NOT go to hell.
"But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." Romans 5:8
We deserve eternal death in hell for our sins, but instead God offers you the gift of eternal life through Jesus Christ.
for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." Romans 10:13
This is God's promise that if we call on the name of the Lord, we will be saved...not maybe...but will.
Here the Bible tells us how to call on the Lord:
That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. Romans 10:9-10
Whatever your sin, God will forgive and forget just as long as you repent and accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior.
"Come now, let us reason together," says the LORD. "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool. Isaiah 1:18
"And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life." 1 John 5:11-13
"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:9
Yeah okay, that's if you believe in any of that. But thanks for informing me that I'm going to burn eternally in fire and brimstone. ;D
Question #1: wouldn't it be enough to be sorry for whatever sin you've committed? I mean if you're sorry, then god already knows you are and would forgive you. (Assuming he exists.)
Question #2: I have a little sister who's parents had her out of wedlock and still aren't married. What do you think is gonna happen to her when she eventually dies? Just out of curiosity.
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That we should what?
I meant we as in everyone but you.
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thanks for informing me that I'm going to burn eternally in fire and brimstone. ;D
I will not apologize for telling you the truth. I know it is not the answer that you wanted to hear. Thank God the Father for sending his only Son Jesus to suffer and die in your place. Thank Jesus, God the Son, for suffering and dying for your sins.
Question #1: wouldn't it be enough to be sorry for whatever sin you've committed? I mean if you're sorry, then god already knows you are and would forgive you. (Assuming he exists.)
Based on all my previous posts, you should know the answer to this question by now.
Question #2: I have a little sister who's parents had her out of wedlock and still aren't married. What do you think is gonna happen to her when she eventually dies? Just out of curiosity.
I know for sure that she is not responsible for her parents' sins. Being born out of wedlock is not her fault. She is responsible for her own sins only, if she has committed any.
Is she still a little baby? People go to hell because they choose to pay for their own sins, not because they didn't believe in Jesus. Jesus died for our sins. So a person who has never committed any sins does NOT have to believe in Jesus to go to heaven. All Babies, and adults who were born mentally ill go to heaven when they die, without having to believe in Jesus. That's because they have not sinned. They have not sinned because they do not know any better.
Hope this helps!
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I will not apologize for telling you the truth. I know it is not the answer that you wanted to hear. Thank God the Father for sending his only Son Jesus to suffer and die in your place. Thank Jesus, God the Son, for suffering and dying for your sins.
I know for sure that she is not responsible for her parents' sins. Being born out of wedlock is not her fault. She is responsible for her own sins only, if she has committed any.
Is she still a little baby? People go to hell because they choose to pay for their own sins, not because they didn't believe in Jesus. Jesus died for our sins. So a person who has never committed any sins does NOT have to believe in Jesus to go to heaven. All Babies, and adults who were born mentally ill go to heaven when they die, without having to believe in Jesus. That's because they have not sinned. They have not sinned because they do not know any better.
Hope this helps!
I'm not expecting you to apologize. lol I was being sarcastic. And thanks... I think.
I asked because I have a cousin who, when I mentioned it to him and he heard it for the first time, got a shocked look on his face and said, "That's not good." That pissed me off.
And there's another thing I want to ask you: I see you quoting all of these verses from the bible, and as I do, I realize that none of them really mean much. In fact, all the power that those words hold is that a lot of people worship them. Now that doesn't mean that they don't have a point and have a good message and should probably be listened to (Well... some of them anyway), but what makes you think that this is the absolute word of God. Need I remind you that these scriptures were written at least 2000 years ago, leaving them open to countless tampering and translation errors. Especially during the time after the year 1000 when the church became a part of the state. That in itself raises many questions about what people would do for power, especially if it seems so friggin' easy to do it. Anyone with enough influence in the church could've easily changes things around from the original bible so as to keep the people in check by using one big scare tactic against them to make sure they don't do anything stupid or immoral. (Ring any bells?)
The point I'm trying to make is that the bible you read now may for all you know not be the original bible at all. I'm not saying you should abandon your faith, i'm just saying that you might not want to follow it so blindly.
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I'm not expecting you to apologize. lol I was being sarcastic. And thanks... I think.
I asked because I have a cousin who, when I mentioned it to him and he heard it for the first time, got a shocked look on his face and said, "That's not good." That pissed me off.
And there's another thing I want to ask you: I see you quoting all of these verses from the bible, and as I do, I realize that none of them really mean much. In fact, all the power that those words hold is that a lot of people worship them. Now that doesn't mean that they don't have a point and have a good message and should probably be listened to (Well... some of them anyway), but what makes you think that this is the absolute word of God. Need I remind you that these scriptures were written at least 2000 years ago, leaving them open to countless tampering and translation errors. Especially during the time after the year 1000 when the church became a part of the state. That in itself raises many questions about what people would do for power, especially if it seems so friggin' easy to do it. Anyone with enough influence in the church could've easily changes things around from the original bible so as to keep the people in check by using one big scare tactic against them to make sure they don't do anything stupid or immoral. (Ring any bells?)
The point I'm trying to make is that the bible you read now may for all you know not be the original bible at all. I'm not saying you should abandon your faith, i'm just saying that you might not want to follow it so blindly.
This evidence is much more than just quoting the Bible. Please read the whole thing at your convenience and explain every single one of them if you can!
Fulfilled Prophecy. The Bible is the only religious book that contains fulfilled prophecy. Some of it has already been fulfilled throughout history, even in our own generation.
http://www.100prophecies.org/
Checkable Biblical Accuracy
http://www.doesgodexist.org/Charts/CheckableBiblicalAccuracy.html
Biblical Archaeology
http://www.allaboutarchaeology.org/biblical-archaeology.htm
Extra-Biblical and Non-Christian evidence that Jesus Christ did exist
http://www.jewsforjesus.org/publications/issues/5_5/noevidence
Evidence that the Gospels were written before 70 AD and that they are accurate and reliable
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/bibleorigin.php
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_Morrison_,
More reading for you and OzmO. Read this stuff completely, then we can have a discussion on whether or not mine is blind faith. Then we can have a discussion on whether or not the Bible is just another book. Then we can discuss whether or not I know where my Bible came from. ;D
Bible Manuscripts
http://www.allaboutthejourney.org/bible-manuscripts.htm
Dead Sea Scrolls
http://www.allaboutarchaeology.org/dead-sea-scrolls.htm
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Now that I have your attention, here's a thought.
This is for all you hardcore Christian believers out there: I consider myself a generally good person. I don't f*ck people over, I don't do things out of malicious intent, and I try to be nice to people. Here's the catch: I do not believe that Jesus Christ was the "son" of God, or -that the "Virgin" Mary was actually a virgin at all. Am I going to hell for that? Brimstone and all.
Hope you don't mind me jumping in on the conversation, bro. I just wanted to present to you, what i feel is, a thought-provoking question. And maybe it's already been asked or mentioned (i didn't read the whole threat yet).....if you were able to go to heaven just because you are a generally good person, then what would be the whole point of Christ's death on the cross?
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Hope you don't mind me jumping in on the conversation, bro. I just wanted to present to you, what i feel is, a thought-provoking question. And maybe it's already been asked or mentioned (i didn't read the whole threat yet).....if you were able to go to heaven just because you are a generally good person, then what would be the whole point of Christ's death on the cross?
I don't know. Maybe his death was just to prove a point. I'm not even sure he existed at all. :-\
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I'm not even sure he existed at all. :-\
Extra-Biblical and Non-Christian evidence that Jesus Christ did exist
http://www.jewsforjesus.org/publications/issues/5_5/noevidence
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This evidence is much more than just quoting the Bible. Please read the whole thing at your convenience and explain every single one of them if you can!
Fulfilled Prophecy. The Bible is the only religious book that contains fulfilled prophecy. Some of it has already been fulfilled throughout history, even in our own generation.
http://www.100prophecies.org/
Checkable Biblical Accuracy
http://www.doesgodexist.org/Charts/CheckableBiblicalAccuracy.html
Biblical Archaeology
http://www.allaboutarchaeology.org/biblical-archaeology.htm
Extra-Biblical and Non-Christian evidence that Jesus Christ did exist
http://www.jewsforjesus.org/publications/issues/5_5/noevidence
Evidence that the Gospels were written before 70 AD and that they are accurate and reliable
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/bibleorigin.php
I'm not going to read all of this because I don't really have the time. But I did skim.
Prophecies--Almost all of the "Fulfilled Prophecies" relate to Israel gaining its independence after WWII, which is really just one event. And how is this any different from a psychic who makes an accurate claim that just happened to appear in the bible?
Checkable Biblical Accuracy--This is nothing more than a bunch of quotes.
Archeology--The Christian Bible is the most recently written one (Aside from countless cults and sci-fi writers trying to make some extra cash), so it naturally has a lot of historical cross-references going for it. If a bible were written now, then it would probably talk about Bush or terrorism. Historical facts concerning events in the bible can only prove when it was written, not if it's accurate.
Jews for Jesus--The evidence in this article actually hurts your claim because it argues that Jesus might not have existed, which he might not have.
Gospels--All this is just more evidence that stuff was written at a certain time, and that people wrote generally the same thing. Basically, these are just glorified testimonies. :-\
It doesn't matter where it came from or when it was written because you still have no evidence that this is the true word of God. All you have is what you believe and that's fine. Show me something unexplainable that has factual evidence that it happened, and I'll explain it to you.
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Extra-Biblical and Non-Christian evidence that Jesus Christ did exist
http://www.jewsforjesus.org/publications/issues/5_5/noevidence
More quotes. No real evidence.
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I'm not going to read all of this because I don't really have the time. But I did skim.
Prophecies--Almost all of the "Fulfilled Prophecies" relate to Israel gaining its independence after WWII, which is really just one event. And how is this any different from a psychic who makes an accurate claim that just happened to appear in the bible?
Checkable Biblical Accuracy--This is nothing more than a bunch of quotes.
Archeology--The Christian Bible is the most recently written one (Aside from countless cults and sci-fi writers trying to make some extra cash), so it naturally has a lot of historical cross-references going for it. If a bible were written now, then it would probably talk about Bush or terrorism. Historical facts concerning events in the bible can only prove when it was written, not if it's accurate.
Jews for Jesus--The evidence in this article actually hurts your claim because it argues that Jesus might not have existed, which he might not have.
Gospels--All this is just more evidence that stuff was written at a certain time, and that people wrote generally the same thing. Basically, these are just glorified testimonies. :-\
It doesn't matter where it came from or when it was written because you still have no evidence that this is the true word of God. All you have is what you believe and that's fine. Show me something unexplainable that has factual evidence that it happened, and I'll explain it to you.
Ha ha ha. Man, you really need to read these again. You missed the whole point.
Jews for Jesus--The evidence in this article actually hurts your claim because it argues that Jesus might not have existed, which he might not have.
You only read the first line. Read it again, it's the opposite of what you are saying.
You really need to question what you hear or read from skeptics. They are telling you lies. You need to study and research. You don't have time? Then make some time. It's your soul.
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More quotes. No real evidence.
NOT Bible quotes, but quotes from non-Christians. Read it again. It is REAL evidence.
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Need I remind you that these scriptures were written at least 2000 years ago, leaving them open to countless tampering and translation errors. Especially during the time after the year 1000 when the church became a part of the state. That in itself raises many questions about what people would do for power, especially if it seems so friggin' easy to do it. Anyone with enough influence in the church could've easily changes things around from the original bible
http://www.septuagint.net/
Septuagint - Dramatic Evidence for the Credibility of Messianic Prophecy
"The Septuagint and the Dead Sea Scrolls establish a very dramatic piece of evidence for Christianity – that the Old Testament prophecies of the coming Messiah unquestionably predated the time that Jesus Christ walked the earth. All theories of 1st Century AD conspiracies and prophecy manipulation go out the door when we realize that prophetic scripture like Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22 were fixed in written form at least 100 years before Christ, and probably many more. Again, despite time, persecution, and the incredibly minor instances of scribal mistakes, the Septuagint is just another example of how the Biblical text has remained faithful in its message and theme. The Holy Bible is truly a divinely inspired and preserved letter from God that is deserving of our time and attention. "
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Ha ha ha. Man, you really need to read these again. You missed the whole point.
You really need to question what you hear or read from skeptics. They are telling you lies. You need to study and research. You don't have time? Then make some time. It's your soul.
Fine I'll read it sometime, but the point is that you still have not given me a good reason to believe what you believe. Why? Because I'm guessing that there isn't one. All religions are pretty much the same, Loco. That's why they all suck. If God or whoever wants to condemn me to an eternity of pain and suffering just because I have my doubts, then he can kiss my ass. I'll be happier knowing I'm a martyr in hell for what I believe is right than to just blindly agree to what God says is right. Assuming that the whole Christianity thing is true, which it isn't in my beliefs.
You have no real evidence to support your claims, and I'm not talking about quotes or credibility of these quotes, I'm talking about something inexplicable that is both recorded in the bible and in history. That's what I want to hear and that's the question I just asked.
So far, you still haven't answered my question. All I see you doing is evading the point and telling me that everyone's lying to me without really proving your argument.
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http://www.septuagint.net/
Septuagint - Dramatic Evidence for the Credibility of Messianic Prophecy
"The Septuagint and the Dead Sea Scrolls establish a very dramatic piece of evidence for Christianity – that the Old Testament prophecies of the coming Messiah unquestionably predated the time that Jesus Christ walked the earth. All theories of 1st Century AD conspiracies and prophecy manipulation go out the door when we realize that prophetic scripture like Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22 were fixed in written form at least 100 years before Christ, and probably many more. Again, despite time, persecution, and the incredibly minor instances of scribal mistakes, the Septuagint is just another example of how the Biblical text has remained faithful in its message and theme. The Holy Bible is truly a divinely inspired and preserved letter from God that is deserving of our time and attention. "
And yet, you find this on a site that's incredibly biased!!!!
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You have no real evidence to support your claims, and I'm not talking about quotes or credibility of these quotes, I'm talking about something inexplicable that is both recorded in the bible and in history. That's what I want to hear and that's the question I just asked.
I do have real evidence. I have just presented you with just a fraction of all the evidence out there, "something inexplicable that is both recorded in the bible and in history", but you won't bother to read it.
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And yet, you find this on a site that's incredibly biased!!!!
So what? It is verifiable evidence. Take whatever I have given you to any non-religious Archeologyst or Historian. Go to any non-religious Archeology or History site and search for the information to verify that it's true. Do your homework. You want to know the truth? It's gonna take some work on your part.
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If God or whoever wants to condemn me to an eternity of pain and suffering
God does not want to condemn you. That's why He sent His Son, Jesus Christ to die for you. You are condemning yourself.
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I'll be happier knowing I'm a martyr in hell for what I believe is right than to just blindly agree to what God says is right.
If you'll be happier doing that, then you are okay, right? No need to search for the truth and no need to ask religious people any more questions.
Either way, I'm here for you, to answer any other questions you might have about my faith. I'm praying for you! God bless you!
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NOT Bible quotes, but quotes from non-Christians. Read it again. It is REAL evidence.
Words mean nothing. I'm not questioning that it happened, I'm questioning whether or not it proves the existence of a "god", which it doesn't.
I do have real evidence. I have just presented you with just a fraction of all the evidence out there, "something inexplicable that is both recorded in the bible and in history", but you won't bother to read it.
I did read it, there is nothing but what people say. There are no pictures, no statistics, and nothing there but people trying to prove something that is seemingly impossible by giving the possible parts credibility.
So what? It is verifiable evidence. Take whatever I have given you to any non-religious Archeologyst or Historian. Go to any non-religious Archeology or History site and search for the information to verify that it's true. Do your homework. You want to know the truth? It's gonna take some work on your part.
Fine, I'll do that.
God does not want to condemn you. That's why He sent His Son, Jesus Christ to die for you. You are condemning yourself.
Wrong, my friend. If God is as all powerful as everyone makes him out to be, he wouldn't allow the kinds of things that go on in the world to go on, he wouldn't have had a bible written that so many people take too seriously and misunderstand (http://www.godhatesfags.com), and he wouldn't have. No one should be condemned for questioning. God has a god complex, but instead, he makes it our fault for not "choosing" to follow his words. He's basically making us an offer we can't refuse!!!
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If you'll be happier doing that, then you are okay, right? No need to search for the truth and no need to ask religious people any more questions.
Either way, I'm here for you, to answer any other questions you might have about my faith. I'm praying for you! God bless you!
Thanks, you seem like a good guy, but I've already found my own truth and that's good enough for me.
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I don't know. Maybe his death was just to prove a point. I'm not even sure he existed at all. :-\
If you have time, _Morrison_, I'd recommend you read the book "Letters From A Skeptic", by Greg Boyd. It's an easy read, because it's the true-life dialogue between an agnostic-atheistic father and his son, who is a pastor and theologian in Minnesota.
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Oh, I forgot, there's another good one too, "The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel
There's tons of information out there to help you, bro. But just as Loco says, you've got to go out there and get it. You shouldn't just go by your feelings, because feelings are very trustworthy.
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If you have time, _Morrison_, I'd recommend you read the book "Letters From A Skeptic", by Greg Boyd. It's an easy read, because it's the true-life dialogue between an agnostic-atheistic father and his son, who is a pastor and theologian in Minnesota.
If I find the time then maybe.
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http://www.septuagint.net/
Septuagint - Dramatic Evidence for the Credibility of Messianic Prophecy
"The Septuagint and the Dead Sea Scrolls establish a very dramatic piece of evidence for Christianity – that the Old Testament prophecies of the coming Messiah unquestionably predated the time that Jesus Christ walked the earth. All theories of 1st Century AD conspiracies and prophecy manipulation go out the door when we realize that prophetic scripture like Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22 were fixed in written form at least 100 years before Christ, and probably many more. Again, despite time, persecution, and the incredibly minor instances of scribal mistakes, the Septuagint is just another example of how the Biblical text has remained faithful in its message and theme. The Holy Bible is truly a divinely inspired and preserved letter from God that is deserving of our time and attention. "
What parts of the Septuagint or the Dead sea scrolls predict the 'time' Jesus walked the earth? So what if Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22 were written 100 years before Jesus?
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What parts of the Septuagint or the Dead sea scrolls predict the 'time' Jesus walked the earth?
Daniel 9:24-27
So what if Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22 were written 100 years before Jesus?
So what? They talk about Jesus 100-400 years before the fact. Many skeptics and critics used to say that Isaiah and Psalm were either written after Jesus, or that they were written before Jesus, but later altered by the Roman Catholic Church to seem as if they predict Jesus' suffering. Both statements are false, the skeptics and critics were wrong, and that's a known fact today. The Bible contains fulfilled prophecy.
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Daniel 9:24-27
Septuagint
9:24-27
24 Seventy weeks have been determined upon thy people, and upon the holy city, for sin to be ended, and to seal up transgressions, and to blot out the iniquities, and to make atonement for iniquities, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal the vision and the prophet, and to anoint the Most Holy.
25 And thou shalt know and understand, that from the going forth of the command for the answer and for the building of Jerusalem until Christ the prince there shall be seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks; and then the time shall return, and the street shall be built, and the wall, and the times shall be exhausted.
26 And after the sixty-two weeks, the anointed one shall be destroyed, and there is no judgment in him: and he shall destroy the city and the sanctuary with the prince that is coming: they shall be cut off with a flood, and to the end of the war which is rapidly completed he shall appoint the city to desolations.
27 And one week shall establish the covenant with many: and in the midst of the week my sacrifice and drink-offering shall be taken away: and on the temple shall be the abomination of desolations; and at the end of time an end shall be put to the desolation.
Where?
So what? They talk about Jesus 100-400 years before the fact. Many skeptics and critics used to say that Isaiah and Psalm were either written after Jesus, or that they were written before Jesus, but later altered by the Roman Catholic Church to seem as if they predict Jesus' suffering. Both statements are false, the skeptics and critics were wrong, and that's a known fact today. The Bible contains fulfilled prophecy.
I understand what you're saying. You're claiming that Daniel 9 prophesied "Jesus of Nazareth" 200 years before he was born including the things he did. However let me point out a few problems.
None of them mention the name "Jesus". They mention the "Christ". We have no evidence the people living during the time of Jesus himself thought of Jesus as the prophetic messiah or the "Christ". I don't see how Daniel 9 predicting "suffering" is evidence of a prophecy since many self purported prophets during the time of Jesus were tortured and killed.
Moreover, Are you claiming that Daniel 9 predicts the siege of Jerusalem in 70AD? If so, I will explain how that's wrong if you indeed are claiming it to be true.
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I understand what you're saying. You're claiming that Daniel 9 prophesied "Jesus of Nazareth" 200 years before he was born including the things he did. However let me point out a few problems.
No. I'm saying that Daniel 9 predicts the time when the Messiah, the Christ, would come. Any Jew who knows the scriptures and of course, the Jewish calendar can read Daniel 9 and use it to calculate the time when the Messiah would come. When is this supposed to be? Around the same time when a Jew from Nazareth named Jesus walked the earth claiming to be the Messiah, the Christ.
Even the magi from the east, who were familiar with Daniel 9 and with the Jewish calendar knew when the Messiah, the king of the Jews would come. That is how they knew when to seek the King of the Jews so that they may bring him gifts and worship him.
None of them mention the name "Jesus". They mention the "Christ".
That's correct, but Jesus said that He is the Christ, He proved it and I believe Him.
We have no evidence the people living during the time of Jesus himself thought of Jesus as the prophetic messiah or the "Christ".
What about Peter, Paul, John, etc? They spread the good news that Jesus is the Messiah. Most Jews did not believe Jesus is the Messiah, but what's new? If you study the history of Israel, you'll see that they rejected and killed most true prophets from God.
I don't see how Daniel 9 predicting "suffering" is evidence of a prophecy since many self purported prophets during the time of Jesus were tortured and killed.
Not arguing with you, but who exactly are you talking about? Obviously, they didn't have nearly the impact Jesus had in the history of the world. Can you give me some names or links to literature that talks about them? Thanks!
Moreover, Are you claiming that Daniel 9 predicts the siege of Jerusalem in 70AD? If so, I will explain how that's wrong if you indeed are claiming it to be true.
I didn't say anything about the siege of Jerusalem in 70AD in this thread, but now that you mention it, Jesus did predict it:
Mark 13:2
Do you see all these great buildings?" replied Jesus. "Not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down."
Matthew 23:37-38
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. Look, your house is left to you desolate."
Luke 19:41-44
As he approached Jerusalem and saw the city, he wept over it and said, "If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace—but now it is hidden from your eyes. The days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you and encircle you and hem you in on every side. They will dash you to the ground, you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of God's coming to you."
Daniel 9 is just one of many prophesies about Jesus. Daniel is unique in that it tells the time when the Messiah would come. There are many other prophecies about the Messiah that point to Jesus.
For example, one of many, is the Golden Gate.
Prophecy: 590 to 570 B.C.
"Then the man brought me back to the outer gate of the sanctuary, the one facing east, and it was shut. The LORD said to me, "This gate is to remain shut. It must not be opened; no one may enter through it. It is to remain shut because the LORD, the God of Israel, has entered through it."
Ezekiel 44:1-2
Fulfilment: 1541 AD
The Arabs take over Jerusalem, rebuild its surrounding walls along with its original gates somewhere between 638 AD - 700 AD. Then, for no logical reason they shut the eastern gate in 1541 AD, after rebuilding it. And it is still shut today. The Muslims allegedly shut the gate to prevent the Messiah's entrance, not knowing that the Messiah had already entered through it in 33 AD.
Dec. 12, 1917
"History records that the Turks were preparing to have the Eastern Gate opened.
On that very day Britain's General Edmund Allenby surrounded Jerusalem and demanded the Turks surrender. The Turks surrendered without a shot being fired."
June 7th, 1967
"Jordan's King Hussein had made plans to open up the Eastern Gate in an apparent attempt to disprove Bible prophecy.
It was also on this incredible day that the famed 6-Day War ended and Israel regained possession of the eastern portion of Jerusalem. This included the Eastern Gate."
October 31 of 1997
"Israel's Housing Ministry wants to reopen a sealed gate in the wall ringing Jerusalem's Old City...The plan to break through the 15-foot-thick stone wall - part of a project to build up the Jewish 'Quarter and increase its population "
The Eastern Gate was shut and it is still shut today, just as foretold by the Bible. According to the prophecy, it was shut "because the LORD, the God of Israel, has entered through it."
The God of Israel has already entered through it? When?
A Jew named Jesus, who claimed to be the God of Israel did enter through it around 33 AD.
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Wikidudeman,
Just out of curiosity, what is your faith? Do you believe in God?
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No. I'm saying that Daniel 9 predicts the time when the Messiah, the Christ, would come. Any Jew who knows the scriptures and of course, the Jewish calendar can read Daniel 9 and use it to calculate the time when the Messiah would come. When is this supposed to be? Around the same time when a Jew from Nazareth named Jesus walked the earth claiming to be the Messiah, the Christ.
Even the magi from the east, who were familiar with Daniel 9 and with the Jewish calendar knew when the Messiah, the king of the Jews would come. That is how they knew when to seek the King of the Jews so that they may bring him gifts and worship him.
Daniel 9 never mentions "Jesus" let alone 'when' he walked the earth. Please explain how it does.
That's correct, but Jesus said that He is the Christ, He proved it and I believe Him.
"Christ" simply means "anointed one" and doesn't necessarily mean "messiah". When did Jesus claim to be the Jewish Messiah?
What about Peter, Paul, John, etc? They spread the good news that Jesus is the Messiah. Most Jews did not believe Jesus is the Messiah, but what's new? If you study the history of Israel, you'll see that they rejected and killed most true prophets from God.
Saint Peter the purported disciple of Jesus was said to of written the two epistles. However biblical scholars find many problems with this theory mainly the fact that the first epistle was clearly written by a Greek and not an Aramaic speaking fisherman. The second epistle is clearly a copy of the Epistle of Jude.
Paul the apostle, was said to of authored 13 letters but he actually wrote only 7 of them. Paul never met Jesus. He supposedly came to Christianity through a vision of the resurrection. (1 Corinthians 15:8-9)
John (I'm assuming John the apostle) was said to of written several New testament texts but there's no evidence he wrote any of them. Including the "Gospel of John".
Not arguing with you, but who exactly are you talking about? Obviously, they didn't have nearly the impact Jesus had in the history of the world. Can you give me some names or links to literature that talks about them? Thanks!
There are many historical cases.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion#Roman_Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion#Roman_Empire)
The fact that Jesus had more historical impact isn't relevant to Daniel 9's supposed prophecy.
Mark 13:2
Do you see all these great buildings?" replied Jesus. "Not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down."
Matthew 23:37-38
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. Look, your house is left to you desolate."
Luke 19:41-44
As he approached Jerusalem and saw the city, he wept over it and said, "If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace—but now it is hidden from your eyes. The days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you and encircle you and hem you in on every side. They will dash you to the ground, you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of God's coming to you."
The gospel of Mark was written around the time of the Siege and Matthew and Luke 10-20 years later. I won't argue the metaphorical significance of these passages or if they do indeed even attempt to predict the siege of Jerusalem in 70AD by Titus, but they were written during or after the siege and can't be used as "prophecy".
For example, one of many, is the Golden Gate.
Prophecy: 590 to 570 B.C.
"Then the man brought me back to the outer gate of the sanctuary, the one facing east, and it was shut. The LORD said to me, "This gate is to remain shut. It must not be opened; no one may enter through it. It is to remain shut because the LORD, the God of Israel, has entered through it."
Ezekiel 44:1-2
Fulfilment: 1,099 AD
The Arabs take over Jerusalem, rebuild its surrounding walls along with its original gates. Then, for no logical reason they shut the eastern gate, after rebuilding it. And it is still shut today.
Dec. 12, 1917
"History records that the Turks were preparing to have the Eastern Gate opened.
On that very day Britain's General Edmund Allenby surrounded Jerusalem and demanded the Turks surrender. The Turks surrendered without a shot being fired."
June 7th, 1967
"Jordan's King Hussein had made plans to open up the Eastern Gate in an apparent attempt to disprove Bible prophecy.
It was also on this incredible day that the famed 6-Day War ended and Israel regained possession of the eastern portion of Jerusalem. This included the Eastern Gate."
October 31 of 1997
"Israel's Housing Ministry wants to reopen a sealed gate in the wall ringing Jerusalem's Old City...The plan to break through the 15-foot-thick stone wall - part of a project to build up the Jewish 'Quarter and increase its population "
The Eastern Gate was shut and it is still shut today, just as foretold by the Bible. According to the prophecy, it was shut "because the LORD, the God of Israel, has entered through it."
The God of Israel has already entered through it? When?
A Jew named Jesus, who claimed to be the God of Israel did enter through it around 33 AD.
Where are you getting your historical sources? The "Golden gate" in Jerusalem wasn't destroyed by the Muslims in 1099. It wasn't ever destroyed. Legend says that it was sealed in the 14th century by Ottoman Sultan Suleiman I to prevent the 'messiah' from walking through it.
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Wikidudeman,
What's the matter? Did you read my post in a hurry? I think you need to read it again. If you don't have the time to read my replies to your questions, then maybe you should just come back when you have the time. Otherwise, let's not even bother.
Daniel 9 never mentions "Jesus" let alone 'when' he walked the earth. Please explain how it does.
I didn't say that it mentions "Jesus". Read my post again.
"Christ" simply means "anointed one" and doesn't necessarily mean "messiah". When did Jesus claim to be the Jewish Messiah?
Christ means Jewish Messiah.
Here ya go, Wikidudeman:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messiah
"The word Christ (Greek Χριστός, Christos, "the anointed one") is a literal translation of "moshiach" used in the Greek Septuagint version of the Bible, and derived from the Greek verb χριω "rub, anoint with scented unguents or oil, as was done after bathing", "anoint in token of consecration" (Liddell & Scott's Greek-English Lexicon)."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Messiah
In Judaism and Jewish eschatology, the Messiah (Hebrew: משיח; Mashiah, Mashiach, or Moshiach, "anointed [one]") is a term traditionally referring to a future Jewish king from the Davidic line who will be "anointed" (the meaning of the Hebrew word משיח) with holy anointing oil and inducted to rule the Jewish people during the Messianic Age
Jesus claimed in many occasions to be the Christ, the Jewish Messiah.
Saint Peter the purported disciple of Jesus was said to of written the two epistles. However biblical scholars find many problems with this theory mainly the fact that the first epistle was clearly written by a Greek and not an Aramaic speaking fisherman. The second epistle is clearly a copy of the Epistle of Jude.
Paul the apostle, was said to of authored 13 letters but he actually wrote only 7 of them. Paul never met Jesus. He supposedly came to Christianity through a vision of the resurrection. (1 Corinthians 15:8-9)
John (I'm assuming John the apostle) was said to of written several New testament texts but there's no evidence he wrote any of them. Including the "Gospel of John".
The gospel of Mark was written around the time of the Siege and Matthew and Luke 10-20 years later. I won't argue the metaphorical significance of these passages or if they do indeed even attempt to predict the siege of Jerusalem in 70AD by Titus, but they were written during or after the siege and can't be used as "prophecy".
Yes, I have heard all these silly theories before, but they hold no water. The Gospels were written way before 70AD by eye witnesses of Jesus. Read:
Many of the New Testament books claim to be written by eyewitnesses.
The Gospel of John claims to be written by the disciple of the Lord. Recent archaeological research has confirmed both the existence of the Pool of Bethesda and that it had five porticoes as described in John 5:2. This correct reference to an incidental detail lends credibility to the claim that the Gospel of John was written by John who as an eyewitness knew Jerusalem before it was destroyed in 70 A. D.
Paul signed his epistles with his own hand. He was writing to churches who knew him. These churches were able to authenticate that these epistles had come from his hands (Galatians 6:11). Clement an associate of Paul's wrote to the Corinthian Church in 97 A. D. urging them to heed the epistle that Paul had sent them.
The following facts strongly suggest that both the Gospel of Luke and the Book of Acts were written prior to 65 A.D. This lends credibility to the author's (Luke) claim to be an eyewitness to Paul's missionary journeys. This would date Mark prior to 65 A.D. and the Pauline epistles between 49-63 A.D.
Acts records the beginning history of the church with persecutions and martyrdoms being mentioned repeatedly. Three men; Peter, Paul, and James the brother of Jesus all play leading roles throughout the book. They were all martyred by 67 A.D., but their martyrdoms are not recorded in Acts.
The church in Jerusalem played a central role in the Book of Acts, but the destruction of the city in 70 A.D. was not mentioned. The Jewish historian Josephus cited the siege and destruction of Jerusalem as befalling the Jews because of their unjust killing of James the brother of Jesus.
The Book of Acts ends with Paul in Rome under house arrest in 62 A.D. In 64 A.D., Nero blamed and persecuted the Christians for the fire that burned down the city of Rome. Paul himself was martyred by 65 A.D. in Rome. Again, neither the terrible persecution of the Christians in Rome nor Paul's martyrdom are mentioned.
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/bibleorigin.php
Where are you getting your historical sources? The "Golden gate" in Jerusalem wasn't destroyed by the Muslims in 1099.
I said that the "Golden gate" was REBUILT, NOT destroyed by the Muslims. Read my post again. I do admit that I was wrong about the date when it was shut. It was shut in 1541 AD, not in 1099 AD. I have updated my original post to correct this.
Timeline: History of Jerusalem
http://www.wzo.org.il/en/resources/view.asp?id=222
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Golden_Gate
"It was probably built in the 520s CE, as part of Justinian I's building program in Jerusalem, on top of the ruins of an earlier gate in the wall. An alternate theory holds that it was built in the later part of the 7th century by Byzantine artisans employed by the Umayyad khalifs."
It wasn't ever destroyed.
Are you sure about that, Wikidudeman? Didn't the Romans destroy Jerusalem in 70AD, along with its surrounding walls and its temple?
Besides, it doesn't matter. What matters is that the eastern gate was shut and remains shut today as foretold by the Bible, because the God of Israel entered through it.
Again, if you don't have time to read my replies to your questions, then come back when you have more time, before you post a reply in haste accusing me of writing stuff I never wrote. ;D
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it was sealed in the 14th century by Ottoman Sultan Suleiman I to prevent the 'messiah' from walking through it.
See, that's the amazing thing. In trying to prevent this prophecy from being fulfilled, the Muslims actually fulfilled the prophecy. Muslims, just as most Jews, do not believe that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah or the God of Israel. So they didn't know that the Messiah, the God of Israel, had already entered through the eastern gate in 33AD and that the next event to complete the fulfillment of the the prophecy was to shut the gate.
Interesting too is that it was the Muslims, not the Christians who shut the gate. Christians had control of Jerusalem between 1099 AD and 1187 AD, but they didn't shut the gate. It was the Muslims, after they took control of Jerusalem around 1187 AD, who later shut the gate in 1541 AD. If the Christians had shut it, skeptics and Bible critics would have said that Christians forced the prophecy to come true to support our claim that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah and God of Israel.
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There are many historical cases.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion#Roman_Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion#Roman_Empire)
I read it, but I didn't see your "many historical cases". Is this what you are talking about?
"Notorious mass crucifixions followed the Third Servile War (the slave rebellion under Spartacus), the Roman Civil War, and the destruction of Jerusalem. Josephus tells a story of the Romans crucifying people along the walls of Jerusalem. He also says that the Roman soldiers would amuse themselves by crucifying criminals in different positions"
Because this isn't supporting your statement that
many self purported prophets during the time of Jesus were tortured and killed
These were prisoners of war that the Romans crucified and not "self purported prophets during the time of Jesus."
However, this was a very interesting read and it goes along with everything the Gospels say in detail about Roman crucifixion and the cruel prelude of scourging during the time of Jesus. So it gives more support to the accuracy and reliability of the Gospels and their record of Jesus' crucifixion. Thank you! ;D
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion#Roman_Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion#Roman_Empire)
Interesting also about your link is the fact below. See, for many years skeptics and Bible critics said that the Gospels were a myth since the Romans didn't crucify anybody, or so they said. The Romans, skeptics said, didn't crucify anybody because not one archaeological finding showed that they did. Well, they were wrong. ;D
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion#Archaeological_evidence_for_ancient_crucifixion
Archaeological evidence for ancient crucifixion
"Despite the fact that the ancient Jewish historian Josephus, as well as other sources, refer to the crucifixion of thousands of people by the Romans, there is only a single archaeological discovery of a crucified body dating back to the Roman Empire around the time of Jesus which was discovered in Jerusalem. It is not surprising that there is only one such discovery, because a crucified body was usually left to decay on the cross and therefore would not be preserved. The only reason these archaeological remains were preserved was because family members gave this particular individual a customary burial.
The remains were found accidentally in an ossuary with the crucified man’s name on it, 'Yehohanan, the son of Hagakol'. The ossuary contained a heel with a nail driven through its side, indicating that the heels may have been driven through the sides of the tree (one on the left side, one on the right side, and not with both feet together in front). The nail had olive wood on it indicating that he was crucified on a cross made of olivewood or on an olive tree. Since olive trees are not very tall, this would suggest that the condemned were crucified at eye level. Additionally, the piece of olive wood was located between the heel and the head of the nail, presumably to keep the condemned from freeing his foot by sliding it over the nail. His legs were found broken. It is thought that since in Roman times iron was expensive, the nails were removed from the dead body to cut the costs, which would help to explain why only one has been found, as the back of the nail was bent in such a way that it couldn't be removed.
Important references for the ancient practice of crucifixion and an examination of archaeological evidence:
Tzaferis, Vassilios. “Crucifixion -- The Archaeological Evidence”, Biblical Archaeology Review 11, February, 1985: 44–53.
Zias, Joseph. “The Crucified Man from Giv’at Ha-Mivtar: A Reappraisal”, Israel Exploration Journal 35 (1), 1985: 22–27.
Hengel, Martin. Crucifixion (Augsburg Fortress, 1977). ISBN 0-8006-1268-X. "
More support for the accuracy and reliability of the Gospels of Jesus Christ. Thank you! ;D
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Christ means Jewish Messiah.
Here ya go, Wikidudeman:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messiah
"The word Christ (Greek Χριστός, Christos, "the anointed one") is a literal translation of "moshiach" used in the Greek Septuagint version of the Bible, and derived from the Greek verb χριω "rub, anoint with scented unguents or oil, as was done after bathing", "anoint in token of consecration" (Liddell & Scott's Greek-English Lexicon)."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Messiah
In Judaism and Jewish eschatology, the Messiah (Hebrew: משיח; Mashiah, Mashiach, or Moshiach, "anointed [one]") is a term traditionally referring to a future Jewish king from the Davidic line who will be "anointed" (the meaning of the Hebrew word משיח) with holy anointing oil and inducted to rule the Jewish people during the Messianic Age
You're talking about the word used which literally means "anointed one" opposed to "Messiah". There were many "anointed ones" who weren't considered the Jewish Messiah.
Jesus claimed in many occasions to be the Christ, the Jewish Messiah.
Where?
Yes, I have heard all these silly theories before, but they hold no water. The Gospels were written way before 70AD by eye witnesses of Jesus. Read:
Most bible scholars disagree.
The Gospel of John claims to be written by the disciple of the Lord. Recent archaeological research has confirmed both the existence of the Pool of Bethesda and that it had five porticoes as described in John 5:2. This correct reference to an incidental detail lends credibility to the claim that the Gospel of John was written by John who as an eyewitness knew Jerusalem before it was destroyed in 70 A. D.
How does this prove that it was written then?
Maybe the author was alive before the pool was destroyed.
Maybe the author asked people who were alive then and saw the pool before it was destroyed.
Maybe the author could tell that the pool had 5 porches even after it was destroyed. Since clearly the "archaeological research" was able to confirm it.
Paul signed his epistles with his own hand. He was writing to churches who knew him. These churches were able to authenticate that these epistles had come from his hands (Galatians 6:11). Clement an associate of Paul's wrote to the Corinthian Church in 97 A. D. urging them to heed the epistle that Paul had sent them.
I'm not doubting that Paul wrote most of the epistles. However as stated earlier, Paul never met Jesus.
Acts records the beginning history of the church with persecutions and martyrdoms being mentioned repeatedly. Three men; Peter, Paul, and James the brother of Jesus all play leading roles throughout the book. They were all martyred by 67 A.D., but their martyrdoms are not recorded in Acts.
The fact that a book mentions previously dead people in no way can be used as evidence the book was written when they were alive. Acts was probably written sometime between 65 A.D. to 80 A.D. with various scholars being on disagreement on the precise date. Norman Geisler is one of the prominent scholars who contends an earlier age around 65 A.D.
The church in Jerusalem played a central role in the Book of Acts, but the destruction of the city in 70 A.D. was not mentioned. The Jewish historian Josephus cited the siege and destruction of Jerusalem as befalling the Jews because of their unjust killing of James the brother of Jesus.
This could mean that either the authors chose not to mention the destruction of Jerusalem for one reason or another or because it was actually written prior to 70 A.D. likely around 65 A.D. neither of which seem implausible.
The Book of Acts ends with Paul in Rome under house arrest in 62 A.D. In 64 A.D., Nero blamed and persecuted the Christians for the fire that burned down the city of Rome. Paul himself was martyred by 65 A.D. in Rome. Again, neither the terrible persecution of the Christians in Rome nor Paul's martyrdom are mentioned.
This isn't really evidence it was written prior to these events occurring. It's circumstantial.
I said that the "Golden gate" was REBUILT, NOT destroyed by the Muslims. Read my post again. I do admit that I was wrong about the date when it was shut. It was shut in 1541 AD, not in 1099 AD. I have updated my original post to correct this.
Legend says that It was shut by Ottoman Sultan Suleiman I to prevent the "Messiah" from coming through it. Though possibly for other unknown reasons.
Are you sure about that, Wikidudeman? Didn't the Romans destroy Jerusalem in 70AD, along with its surrounding walls and its temple?
They didn't flatten Jerusalem. Many monuments in Jerusalem survived including the Golden Gate.
Besides, it doesn't matter. What matters is that the eastern gate was shut and remains shut today as foretold by the Bible, because the God of Israel entered through it.
There's no evidence it's being kept shut has anything to do with Ezekiel 44:1-2 saying it would be kept shut.
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I read it, but I didn't see your "many historical cases". Is this what you are talking about?
"Notorious mass crucifixions followed the Third Servile War (the slave rebellion under Spartacus), the Roman Civil War, and the destruction of Jerusalem. Josephus tells a story of the Romans crucifying people along the walls of Jerusalem. He also says that the Roman soldiers would amuse themselves by crucifying criminals in different positions"
Because this isn't supporting your statement that
These were prisoners of war that the Romans crucified and not "self purported prophets during the time of Jesus."
The point was that during the time of Jesus many people were killed in the same way he was killed. I didn't mean to claim that these people were actually claiming to be the Jewish Messiah. Jesus himself was never claiming to be the Jewish Messiah.
Interesting also about your link is the fact below. See, for many years skeptics and Bible critics said that the Gospels were a myth since the Romans didn't crucify anybody, or so they said. The Romans, skeptics said, didn't crucify anybody because not one archaeological finding showed that they did. Well, they were wrong. ;D
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion#Archaeological_evidence_for_ancient_crucifixion
Archaeological evidence for ancient crucifixion
"Despite the fact that the ancient Jewish historian Josephus, as well as other sources, refer to the crucifixion of thousands of people by the Romans, there is only a single archaeological discovery of a crucified body dating back to the Roman Empire around the time of Jesus which was discovered in Jerusalem. It is not surprising that there is only one such discovery, because a crucified body was usually left to decay on the cross and therefore would not be preserved. The only reason these archaeological remains were preserved was because family members gave this particular individual a customary burial.
The remains were found accidentally in an ossuary with the crucified man’s name on it, 'Yehohanan, the son of Hagakol'. The ossuary contained a heel with a nail driven through its side, indicating that the heels may have been driven through the sides of the tree (one on the left side, one on the right side, and not with both feet together in front). The nail had olive wood on it indicating that he was crucified on a cross made of olivewood or on an olive tree. Since olive trees are not very tall, this would suggest that the condemned were crucified at eye level. Additionally, the piece of olive wood was located between the heel and the head of the nail, presumably to keep the condemned from freeing his foot by sliding it over the nail. His legs were found broken. It is thought that since in Roman times iron was expensive, the nails were removed from the dead body to cut the costs, which would help to explain why only one has been found, as the back of the nail was bent in such a way that it couldn't be removed.
Important references for the ancient practice of crucifixion and an examination of archaeological evidence:
Tzaferis, Vassilios. “Crucifixion -- The Archaeological Evidence”, Biblical Archaeology Review 11, February, 1985: 44–53.
Zias, Joseph. “The Crucified Man from Giv’at Ha-Mivtar: A Reappraisal”, Israel Exploration Journal 35 (1), 1985: 22–27.
Hengel, Martin. Crucifixion (Augsburg Fortress, 1977). ISBN 0-8006-1268-X. "
More support for the accuracy and reliability of the Gospels of Jesus Christ. Thank you! ;D
Which "Bible skeptics" said that the Romans didn't crucify people during the time of Jesus?
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According to christians you are, but according to me and some other people you are not. You are nice because you feel it's the right thing to do as a service to your fellow man. You get morals through your own moral phiolosophy and not some book. You are nice, not for fear of the some boggeyman in the sky, but for the love of your fellow man.
Junaid, what are you babbling on about? ???
Exactly!
Great minds do think alike.