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Getbig Misc Discussion Boards => Religious Debates & Threads => Topic started by: OzmO on May 03, 2007, 08:43:12 AM
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I'm interested to know all the things considered "sins" outside the ten commandments in Christianity.
Off the top of my head i know these 2:
Pre-marital sex
Homosexuality
Please list as many as you can
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I'm interested to know all the things considered "sins" outside the ten commandments in Christianity.
Off the top of my head i know these 2:
Pre-marital sex
Homosexuality
Please list as many as you can
1. Not loving God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.
2. Not loving your neighbor as yourself.
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1. Not loving God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.
2. Not loving your neighbor as yourself.
Ok, anymore?
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I'm interested to know all the things considered "sins" outside the ten commandments in Christianity.
OzmO
Out of curiosity, why only Christianity? What about Judaism and Islam?
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There are no sins... (aside from cold blooded murder and thievery) Just people who believe in sin itself.
That's just my take on it...
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OzmO
Out of curiosity, why only Christianity? What about Judaism and Islam?
Loco,
At the moment, I'm focusing on Christianity for these reasons:
- I know it far better then Judaism or Islam
- I'm not that interested in Judaism although I'd like to read the Book of Enoch sometime and discuss why he was raptured (if i remember it right) sometime. And them maybe read about very early Jews, (from Jewish sources) and how they worshiped.
- Islam at the moment, would be like learning a new language.
And one of my BIG beefs with Christianity or at least the Bible is what's considered sins. So i just want to know what people view as sins.
A good example would be: "women dressing like men" in the OT. Some Christians say that it applied to Jews not Christians while others don't.
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OzmO
Out of curiosity, why only Christianity? What about Judaism and Islam?
Because he, in a passive-aggressive manner, is trying to make a point about how he disagrees with Christians when it comes to pre-marital sex and homosexuality.
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Because he, in a passive-aggressive manner, is trying to make a point about how he disagrees with Christians when it comes to pre-marital sex and homosexuality.
I do disagree and I've been very consistent in saying that at least with the homosexuality part, but that's not what I'm trying to do in this instance. If i was i'd post the topic as something like: Homosexuality is not a sin.
I'm looking to see how much of it (the sins) I would consider, the "W.O.G." and at the same time see the differences in how many Christians interpret what are sins and what not sins as per the example of women dressing like men i provided.
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I do disagree and I've been very consistent in saying that at least with the homosexuality part, but that's not what I'm trying to do in this instance. If i was i'd post the topic as something like: Homosexuality is not a sin.
I'm looking to see how much of it (the sins) I would consider, the "W.O.G." and at the same time see the differences in how many Christians interpret what are sins and what not sins as per the example of women dressing like men i provided.
I don't know that it's possible to find a finite answer to what you are looking for, bro. There are SO MANY interpretations of what people believe, even when it comes to the word of God. :-\
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I don't know that it's possible to find a finite answer to what you are looking for, bro. There are SO MANY interpretations of what people believe, even when it comes to the word of God. :-\
No doubt, but there should be some constants. And not to get too much into a discussion in the wrong direction but ther really shouldn't be, the W.O.G. should be straight forward and virtually free from perversions.
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I'm interested to know all the things considered "sins" outside the ten commandments in Christianity.
Off the top of my head i know these 2:
Pre-marital sex
Homosexuality
Please list as many as you can
Well, OzmO, let me tell ya...Christians, Jews and Muslims agree that breaking any of the 10 commandments is a sin, and also that pre-marital sex and homosexuality are sins. That's pretty consistent to me.
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Well, OzmO, let me tell ya...Christians, Jews and Muslims agree that breaking any of the 10 commandments is a sin, and also that pre-marital sex and homosexuality are sins. That's pretty consistent to me.
I know that.
That's not what I'm trying to do here.
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Loco,
I don't know if you are thinking this or not, but I'm not the kind of guy who is looking for a religion that fits what i believe are sins or not.
The truth is the truth, regardless of what you or i believe.
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No doubt, but there should be some constants. And not to get too much into a discussion in the wrong direction but ther really shouldn't be, the W.O.G. should be straight forward and virtually free from perversions.
Constans as far as what? God's word?
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Constans as far as what? God's word?
Yeah like: "Thou shall not steal", homosexuality, pre-marital sex.
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Yeah like: "Thou shall not steal", homosexuality, pre-marital sex.
I'm not sure I understand, bro. Sorry
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I'm not sure I understand, bro. Sorry
Well you said:
I don't know that it's possible to find a finite answer to what you are looking for, bro. There are SO MANY interpretations of what people believe, even when it comes to the word of God. :-\
I'm thinking that there must be quite a few sins outside of violating the 10 commandments that virtually everyone agrees on.
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Well you said:
I'm thinking that there must be quite a few sins outside of violating the 10 commandments that virtually everyone agrees on.
Wouldn't you agree that some 30 years ago, virtually everyone agreed that homosexuality was wrong?
Once upon a time is was taboo for couples to get divorced due to infidelity, or for other reasons.
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There are no sins... (aside from cold blooded murder and thievery) Just people who believe in sin itself.
That's just my take on it...
http://www.anus.com/
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Wouldn't you agree that some 30 years ago, virtually everyone agreed that homosexuality was wrong?
Once upon a time is was taboo for couples to get divorced due to infidelity, or for other reasons.
Yes in the United States it was, but i don't think it was that way every where in the world.
On the divorce issue: I think you maybe getting at something i feel has been a big problem in our Western culture.
"The instant complex"
We have instant oats, instant coffee, and "instant divorce". No one, hangs in there any more and tries to make it work.
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Guess no one wants to touch this one?
Are we afraid we might uncover sins you are not aware of and be forced to give something up?
I saw a sight that listed 600 sins in the bible. ouch. probably not too precise however.
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Loco,
At the moment, I'm focusing on Christianity for these reasons:
- I know it far better then Judaism or Islam
- I'm not that interested in Judaism although I'd like to read the Book of Enoch sometime and discuss why he was raptured (if i remember it right) sometime. And them maybe read about very early Jews, (from Jewish sources) and how they worshiped.
- Islam at the moment, would be like learning a new language.
And one of my BIG beefs with Christianity or at least the Bible is what's considered sins. So i just want to know what people view as sins.
A good example would be: "women dressing like men" in the OT. Some Christians say that it applied to Jews not Christians while others don't.
OzmO, why is it that many of your posts breath an air of hatred toward Christians? You said that you found God in a Christian church. Did Christians hurt you? If that's the case, as a Christian, I apologize in behalf of my fellow Christians who hurt you. I pray you will forgive us.
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OzmO, why is it that many of your posts breath an air of hatred toward Christians? You said that you found God in a Christian church. Did Christians hurt you? If that's the case, as a Christian, I apologize in behalf of my fellow Christians who hurt you. I pray you will forgive us.
No, not at all. How would that happen?
If my posts seem to breath an air of hatred towards Christianity It might be because of the caliber of difficult questions i ask. For example: Slavery. Is slavery a sin?
But i don't hate Christianity.
I do, however, challenge the notion of the Bible being the 100% Word of God.
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If my posts seem to breath an air of hatred towards Christianity It might be because of the caliber of difficult questions i ask. For example: Slavery. Is slavery a sin?
No, it is not "the caliber of difficult questions" you ask.
Just one example is that you keep attacking Christianity on the issue of homosexuality. Yet, we don't see you attacking Islam or Judaism on the same subject. Why? These two other major world religions agree with Christianity on this one issue.
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No, it is not "the caliber of difficult questions" you ask.
Just one example is that you keep attacking Christianity on the issue of homosexuality. Yet, we don't see you attacking Islam or Judaism on the same subject. Why? These two other major world religions agree with Christianity on this one issue.
So slavery is not a sin?
And homosexuality was something i was comparing the "non-sin" of slavery to. I suppose i could use something else like gambling or premarital sex.
So basically it's not ok to fornicate before marriage but it's ok to enslave Children right?
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Is slavery a sin?
"The Bible never says that slavery is a wise or a good practice, and after thousands of years of slavery, during the last 150 years mankind seems to have finally come to the realization that slavery is a bad practice. However, we need to differentiate between a "bad practice" and "sin." In order for slavery to qualify as a sin it must be a transgression of God's law, which is the 10 commandments. However, the Bible allowed for Israel to practice slavery and never condemned it as a sin. While slavery may correctly be defined as a bad practice, it is not a transgression of God's law, therefore it cannot be classified as a sin." Sydney Cleveland
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So slavery is not a sin?
And homosexuality was something i was comparing the "non-sin" of slavery to. I suppose i could use something else like gambling or premarital sex.
So basically it's not ok to fornicate before marriage but it's ok to enslave Children right?
You completely avoided the question and changed the subject. Islam and Judaism agree on the issue of slavery as well, that is it a bad practice, but not a sin.
you keep attacking Christianity on the issue of homosexuality. Yet, we don't see you attacking Islam or Judaism on the same subject. Why? These two other major world religions agree with Christianity on this one issue.
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"The Bible never says that slavery is a wise or a good practice, and after thousands of years of slavery, during the last 150 years mankind seems to have finally come to the realization that slavery is a bad practice. However, we need to differentiate between a "bad practice" and "sin." In order for slavery to qualify as a sin it must be a transgression of God's law, which is the 10 commandments. However, the Bible allowed for Israel to practice slavery and never condemned it as a sin. While slavery may correctly be defined as a bad practice, it is not a transgression of God's law, therefore it cannot be classified as a sin." Sydney Cleveland
I'll ask the question again but this time I'll be more specific: (i'm trying to be arrogant or w/e here)
According to the Bible is Slavery a sin?
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I'll ask the question again but this time I'll be more specific: (i'm trying to be arrogant or w/e here)
According to the Bible is Slavery a sin?
No
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You completely avoided the question and changed the subject. Islam and Judaism agree on the issue of slavery as well, that is it a bad practice, but not a sin.
no, you assumed i was focusing on homosexuality when i was not.
But to answer your question anyway, i would think that there isn't a good representation of the Jewish and Muslim religion here. but there is a great representation of Christians here.
Now are you going to answer my questions?
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No
So if i go buy a child slave, right now, God has no problem with that? It's not a sin to do such a thing?
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So if i go buy a child slave, right now, God has no problem with that? It's not a sin to do such a thing?
Yes, He does.
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Yes, He does.
He does have a problem with it or not? (i'm not sure what you are saying here.)
Also:
So basically it's not ok to fornicate before marriage but it's ok to enslave Children right?
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He does have a problem with it or not? (i'm not sure what you are saying here.)
Also:
So basically it's not ok to fornicate before marriage but it's ok to enslave Children right?
OzmO,
I'm keeping it short and simple for you so that you understand my answers to your questions. Yet, you do not understand my simple answers and you add words to them. Then you complain about me putting words in your mouth. ::)
You want to stick to slavery and get that cleared up first, before you start a whole thread on fornication?
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But to answer your question anyway, i would think that there isn't a good representation of the Jewish and Muslim religion here. but there is a great representation of Christians here.
What an excuse! ::)
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OzmO,
I'm keeping it short and simple for you so that you understand my answers to your questions. Yet, you do not understand my simple answers and you add words to them. Then you complain about me putting words in your mouth. ::)
You want to stick to slavery and get that cleared up first, before you start a whole thread on fornication?
These are simple questions loco. yes or no.
With this question here:
He does have a problem with it or not? (i'm not sure what you are saying here.)
You could be saying one of 2 things:
1. he does have a problem with slavery.
or
2. he does think it's ok.
that's why i asked it.
Also,
Are you trying to get me frustrated by not answering these simple questions in hopes i get "arrogant or w/e" so you can justify not answering them? Becuase premarital sex is either a sin or not a sin right?
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What an excuse! ::)
hey man, don;t get mad if you don;t like the answer.
I thought you said the Bible was the infallible word of God......if that's the case why do we need to to even talk about those other religions?
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OzmO, you may find this interesting:
(from brfwitness.org)
THE BIBLE TEACHING ON SLAVERY
Guest Editorial
January/February, 2003
Volume 38, Number 1
When coming to an understanding about the biblical view of slavery, it is first of all necessary to remember that it is not part of God's plan to bring perfect conditions to this present earth. God intends to destroy the earth (2 Peter 3:10). His purpose for the world as we now know it, is to call out a people for Himself. Toward that end, He has been able to use even evil that humans have devised, for His glory and our good. The most notable example, of course, is the death of our Lord Jesus. Betrayal, denial, false accusation, injustice and ultimately murder were among the instruments used by the heavenly Father to bring about our salvation.
It is important that we do not confuse God's use of an institution (or of evil) with His approval of it. One can reach the conclusion that the Bible approves of slavery only by ignoring the heart of the Gospel message which unequivocally proclaims liberty to the captive. The first of the holy festivals given to the Israelites is the Feast of the Passover, which is to commemorate their deliverance from bondage in Egypt. God heard the cries of people and brought His wrath against the nation that had enslaved them. In the celebration of a lasting memorial, the Lord painted for us a picture of our ultimate deliverance from the bondage of sin. Every spring to this very day, the Jewish people remember tkat they were released from slavery by the hand of God. Year after year, Passover reminds the world that God does not approve of slavery.
During the sojourn in the Sinai Wilderness the Lord called on the Hebrews to remember their own bondage in Egypt so that they would deal fairly with their own brothers who were slaves, placing a limit of six years on their servitude (Deuteronomy 15:12-15). Again, the memory of bondage was to be an incentive not to pervert justice and to provide generous charity for the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow (Deuteronomy 24:17-22). The implication is that slavery was an injustice not to be repeated.
Later in Israel's history the people had forgotten the lessons of bondage, and were reminded through the prophet Isaiah of God's heart. Isaiah (in chapter 58:1-7) described a chosen fast and encouraged the practice of the fast as a means of pleasing the Lord, the One who looses the chains of injustice and unties the cords of the yoke to set the oppressed free. The Lord Jesus Christ began His public ministry by reading from the same prophet: "The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, because He has anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed, to preach the acceptable year of the Lord" (Luke 4:18-19).
It is true that one will not find in the Scriptures a call to actively abolish slavery. But it is also clear from Paul's appeal to Philemon that he had every expectation that the change in Philemon brought about at conversion to Christ, would lead him to release Onesimus from bondage. "For perhaps he departed for a while for this purpose, that you might receive him forever, no longer as a slave but more than a slave, as a beloved brother, especially to me but how much more to you, both in the flesh and in the Lord" (Philemon 15-16). It is always God's priority to release those living in spiritual bondage, knowing that men and women liberated by His grace will quickly see that those unjustly held in physical bondage should also be set free.
Much of the confusion over the Bible's position on slavery comes from the hypocrisy of America's early history. Because Christians had slaves, it is often assumed that they used biblical support to do so. Actually, the arguments were generally political and economic in nature. Some slaveholders were racist. Some tried to justify slavery based on terror; that is, they reasoned, "if they believe they have a right to be free, they will revolt like the colonists did against England." By carefully examinin the differences between slavery in both the Old and New Testament eras, and slavery as it was practiced in colonial America, it will soon become clear that no African could have been torn from his homeland and sold into bondage--if the teaching of the Bible had been faithfully practiced. Read the article on slavery which follows.
--Melanie Fyock
Melanie Fyock is a member of the Purchase Line Church of the Brethren in the Western Pennsylvania District. She has been a student at the Brethren Bible Institute during most of its annual sessions.
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addtl article from the same site:
The Bible Teaching on Slavery
By Harold S. Martin
Most thinking people agree that any institution that exploits and abuses people who are made in God's image, is not His perfect will. Slaves typically have three defining characteristics:
1) Their person is the property of another human being.
2) Their will is completely subject to the owner's authority.
3) Their labor is obtained against their will by coercion.
Slavery defined in these ways cannot be justified under any circumstances in any society. To enslave another human being is a sinful act.
Yet the Bible, in both the Old Testament and the New Testament, seems to endorse slavery. If the Bible does in fact approve of slavery, and we are agreed that to hold another person as a slave is sinful, then we have an example of a situation where living in obedience to the teaching of Scripture would lead us into sin! And if this is the case with slavery, then perhaps obedience to the teaching of Scripture could lead us into sin in other areas also. For example-to hold the Bible's teaching on the subordination of women, and on the evil of homosexual conduct-might mean that we are being misled into error by believing the Bible. Critics say, "You oppose homosexual activity and use the Bible to support your view, but the Bible you believe in, also supports slavery."
I have received several letters that either say (or imply) that because the Bible seems to support slavery, we must move beyond what the Bible says, and overcome slavery. And just so, they say, while the Bible seems to condemn homosexual activity, we must move beyond what the Bible says, and overcome prejudice toward homosexual activity. Furthermore, we must move beyond what the Bible says about the place of women in the home and the church and accept the views of feminist theologians. Critics of BRF say that we use the Bible to repudiate homosexual conduct, but after all, the Bible could also be used as a rationale to bring back slavery and support the subjugation of women!
The writer in the Spring, 1993 issue of Brethren Life and Thought says that instead of using a trustworthy Bible as the basis for our decision making, "perhaps it would be better ... if we viewed Scripture as human records about God's work in our lives."
1. THE MEANING AND USE OF THE WORD "SLAVES"
The New Testament uses the word "slave" frequently. In the KJV the Greek word "doulos" is translated "servant," and one who serves as a .servant" is usually translated "minister."
There is a difference between a servant and a slave. A "servant" is one who is privately employed to perform household services--one who serves another. A "slave" is one who is bound in servitude to another person or group of persons as an instrument of labor-usually one who is coerced to serve.
The Bible says, "Let as many servants as are under the yoke, count their own masters worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and his doctrine may not be blasphemed. And those who have believing masters, let them not despise them because they are brethren, but rather serve them because those who are benefited are believers and beloved" (1 Timothy' 6:1 2, NKJV). The words "servants under the yoke" indicate clearly that the reference is to slaves and not to privately employed household servants. Thus, many translations use the better English word "slaves" (for those bound in servitude to another), instead of the word "servants."
2. PAST AND CURRENT EXAMPLES OF ABUSIVE HUMAN SLAVERY
Early American slavery was often abusive. People (usually from Africa) were brought into forced labor. When we read accounts of the nineteenth century American slave trade, we rightly feel angered. Early American slavery tore families apart and robbed people of their freedom and dignity. Slavery degraded blacks and subjected them to terrible cruelties.
The 1997 film called Amistad (the name of a slave ship that reached the coast of Long Island) is the true story of a bloody 1839 rebellion aboard a Spanish ship. Scenes in the film depict slaves being beaten, whipped, shot to death, and thrown overboard. These things shake us and cause us to weep.
Slavery is still practiced around the world. In Sudan, Christians are sold into slavery at $500 a head. In China, Christians are being forced to perform slave labor in concentration camps. Parents are jailed for merely teaching their children about the Gospel. The Geneva based International Labor Organization released a report in March, 1993 that says, "Tens of millions of people around the globe, including children as young as six, are working in bondagein dangerous and degrading conditions that often involve 18 hour workdays, beatings, and sexual abuse." The ILO reports that slavery like these practices exist in Sudan, Haiti, Pakistan, Mauritania, India, Thailand, Peru, Brazil, and the Dominican Republic. See Time magazine, March 22, 1993.
The ugly side of our own nation's early history cannot be wiped away by piously hiding behind the Bible to justify what took place. Slavery, as practiced in early America and in some parts of the world today, was and is a gruesome and inhuman institution. In America, the grace of God, working outward from within--became a penetrating principle to transform the evil social practice. That needs to happen elsewhere. The fact is that the slavery which some theologians in the Old South were supporting--was a very different kind of slavery from that which is spoken about in the Bible.
3. THE USE OF SLAVES IN NEW TESTAMENT TIMES
The Scriptures seem to be ambiguous on the subject of slaves and slavery. Neither the Old Testament nor the New Testament condemns slavery, or calls for its abolition. The New Testament, in fact, instructs slaves to obey their masters.
In the Old Testament era, no Hebrew could permanently become the slave of another. Slaves had to be freed when they paid the debt for which they were sold. Also, in the seventh year of their service, whether or not the debt was paid, they had to be released. And when the Year of Jubilee arrived, all slaves were set free.
Slavery in the Roman world did not generally involve inhuman treatment. Slaves often managed money, guarded children, cooked food, and sometimes were even family doctors. We generally associate the word "slave" with the ideas of forced subjection, involuntary service, and harsh treatment. Those terms are not accurate descriptions of slavery in the Roman Empire.
We need to know what slavery was like in New Testament times so that we can know how to apply the New Testament instructions to situations in our own day. Kent Hughes, in his commentary on Ephesians (Crossway Books, Wheaton, IL), page 206, documents much helpful information on Roman slavery. It is estimated that there were 60,000,000 slaves in the Roman Empire, but the average slave was not abused and exploited. Some slaves did suffer at the hands of their owners, but slaves under Roman law could usually count on being set free. While slaves remained their owner's property, they themselves could own property---including other slaves.
We note too that being a slave did not indicate one's social class. Slaves were accorded the social status of their owners. And outwardly, one could scarcely ever distinguish a slave from a free person. A slave could be a custodian, a merchant, a salesman, a teacher, or a government official. Slaves were often highly educated. There were a few slaves who were elders in the church, and thus had authority over the masters whom they served all week. Selling oneself as a slave was commonly used as a means of gaining Roman citizenship.
Roman slavery in the first century was far more humane and civilized than the African-American slavery practiced in the he United States during the seventeenth to the nineteenth centuries. This does not suggest that ancient slavery was not evil. Slaves were still considered property and could be bought and sold and severely punished-but understanding the nature of slavery in New Testament times helps us to understand why the apostolic writers were not as quick to attack slavery.
The Apostle Paul respected the civil law and the social patterns of his day, and did not militate against the law of slavery. William Barclay, in his commentary, The Letters to Timothy and Titus, Westminster, 1960, says:
"In those early days, the Church did not emerge as the opponent and the would-be destroyer of slavery by violent and sudden means. And the Church was wise. There were something like 60,000,000 slaves in the Roman Empire ... For the Church to have encouraged slaves to revolt and rebel and rise against their masters would have been fatal. It would simply have caused civil war, mass murder, and the complete discredit of the Church. (Instead), what happened was that as the centuries went on, Christianity so permeated civilization that in the end the slaves were freed voluntarily and not by force. Here is a tremendous lesson. It is the proof that neither men nor the world nor society can be reformed by force and by legislation. The reform must come through the slow penetration of the Spirit of Christ into the human situation. Things have to happen in God's time, not in ours. In the end, the slow way is the sure way, and the way of violence always defeats itself."
The Bible teaching in 1 Timothy 6:1-2 is that believers who were slaves were to honor, respect, and obey their masters. The name of Christ whom they profess to worship would be defamed if they fail to follow that instruction. If the believer was the slave of a heathen master, he might be tempted to regard his master as bound for hell, while the slave is saved for heaven. That kind of intolerant superiority was not like the mind of Christ. If the believer was the slave of a master who was Christian, the slave would be tempted to use the relationship as an excuse to do inefficient work, and expect not to be punished. The New Testament teaching is that the slave does not have the right to be disrespectful, no matter who his master is.
The Apostolic Church looked upon slaves as brothers and as equals. The post-Apostolic Church admitted slaves to all the rights of the church, some of whom became priests and even bishops. Church collections (money offerings) were often used to purchase freedom for slaves. The freeing of slaves was considered a praiseworthy action.
4. THE EARLY CHURCH OF THE BRETHREN AND SLAVERY
American slave holding was practiced in all the early colonies. By the mid 1700s Brethren had settled in Pennsylvania, Maryland, and Virginia. Abolition societies began in several northern states, working together to promote the abolition of slavery. The early Brethren rejected both slavery and the abolition societies. The Church of the Brethren (German Baptist Brethren) Annual Meeting repeatedly insisted that Brethren may not own slaves.
If people who owned slaves desired membership among the Brethren, they had to free their slaves first and compensate them for the work they had done. Ministers who defended slavery were treated firmly and could be excommunicated from the church. Slavery was simply not tolerated by the nineteenth century Brethren.
In Roger Sappington's The Brethren in the New Nation, we read the following summary on page 256: "From the beginning of the church in Germany, Brethren expressed their opposition to human slavery, In Europe this belief had not been a problem of any kind, since human slavery was virtually unknown in northern Europe by 1700. In America, however, Brethren encountered a different situation, for human slavery was widespread, even among their Quaker neighbors in Pennsylvania. Like most Germans, however, Brethren usually found work in occupations where human slaves could not be profitably employed. Even after the Brethren began to move into the colonies south of the Mason-Dixon line, where slavery was more widespread, they generally settled on relatively small family sized farms in the mountain valleys which could be farmed without slaves rather than on the large plantations owned by the English which required slave labor."
We must remember that the Bible acknowledges the existence of institutions which it does not necessarily approve, including polygamy and slavery. God has never approved of the injustices and cruelties that have often been associated with slavery. The New Testament does not directly condemn slavery, but neither does it accept slavery as an ongoing social fact. The New Testament deals with master/slave relationships so as to render slavery unjustifiable. Slaves and masters are brothers. In Christ, all are one; there is no bond or free (Galatians 3:28; Ephesians 6:9). The New Testament writers try to correct the injustices of slavery by encouraging improved attitudes on the part of both masters and slaves.
The New Testament does not advocate the overthrow of slavery by forcible revolution. Rather, it condemns and removes the abuses of slavery by striking at its roots, by lifting up the power of the Gospel to change hearts, and by setting forth principles for dealing with fellow human beings:
1) All human beings are made in the image and likeness of God and are worthy of respect (Genesis 1:28).
2) All human beings are loved by God who cares for us (John 3:16).
3) All Christians are to love their neighbors as themselves (Matthew 22:39).
The abuses of slavery have disappeared wherever the Word of God has been widely and faithfully taught. Christianity never had as its immediate goal an attempt to change society, but to change people. And to the degree that people change, to that extent, society and its structures change. And so wherever the true Christian message has made deep inroads, slavery has been eliminated.
There is another kind of slavery that Christians need to think about. The Bible speaks of slavery to sin and slavery to righteousness. Jesus said, "Most assuredly, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin" (John 8:34). In a spiritual sense, people apart from Christ are slaves to sin. To keep on committing sin is to demonstrate that sin has control of one's life.
The Apostle Paul said, "To whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin to death, or of obedience to righteousness" (Romans 6:16). Then Paul thanked God that many who were once slaves of sin had now by the grace of God become slaves of righteousness. Christ can set us free from slavery to sin and will enable us to do righteousness.
The writers of the New Testament epistles refer to themselves as Christ's slaves. See Galatians 1:10, 2 Peter 1:1, and Jude 1. The dedicated Christian is a servant (a bond slave) of the Lord Jesus Christ. We are not free to do as we choose. We are committed to obediently serve God and to deal justly with our fellow human beings.
Concerning slavery as a social institution, neither Jesus nor Paul advocated social revolution which would lead to the immediate emancipation of every slave. Such a sudden upheaval would have resulted in indescribable misery for many slaves who depended on their masters for a living. What the Bible teaches is that love coming from both sides (master and slaves) will melt cruelty into kindness, and in so doing, despots will be changed into kind employers and slaves will become willing servants. All will become brothers and sisters in Christ.
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hey man, don;t get mad if you don;t like the answer.
I'm not mad, OzmO. ;D
But you are, mad at Christians. Though you deny it, your attitude says otherwise.
I thought you said the Bible was the infallible word of God......if that's the case why do we need to to even talk about those other religions?
Yes, the Bible is the infallible Word of God. And Christianity, Islam and Judaism believe that the below are the infallible words of God:
Leviticus 18:22
"You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination."
So why is your "Beef with Christianity" not your beef with Islam and Judaism? How does it matter how many Jews and Muslims we have on the board?
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I'm not mad, OzmO. ;D
But you are, mad at Christians. Though you deny it, your attitude says otherwise.
Yes, the Bible is the infallible Word of God. And Christianity, Islam and Judaism believe that the below are the infallible words of God:
Leviticus 18:22
"You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination."
So why is your "Beef with Christianity" not your beef with Islam and Judaism? How does it matter how many Jews and Muslims we have on the board?
Why haven't you answer the other questions i just asked you?
You could be saying one of 2 things:
1. he does have a problem with slavery.
or
2. he does think it's ok.
that's why i asked it.
So basically it's not ok to fornicate before marriage but it's ok to enslave Children right?
?
BTw: I'd have a field day with Islam. ;), don't know about Jeudism however.
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Why haven't you answer the other questions i just asked you?
?
BTw: I'd have a field day with Islam. ;), don't know about Jeudism however.
I did. Go back and read. The Bible does NOT say Slavery is a sin. God would have a problem if I bought a slave child, or adult for that matter, today. God would not be happy with me doing that today. So what's your point?
Now answer my question:
I'm not mad, OzmO. ;D
But you are, mad at Christians. Though you deny it, your attitude says otherwise.
Yes, the Bible is the infallible Word of God. And Christianity, Islam and Judaism believe that the below are the infallible words of God:
Leviticus 18:22
"You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination."
So why is your "Beef with Christianity" not your beef with Islam and Judaism? How does it matter how many Jews and Muslims we have on the board?
You are the one avoiding the issue. Maybe the reason you didn't get the responce you expected of this thread is because nobody understands where you are going with it. You keep jumping from one subject to another. Why don't you go ahead and make your point. We already know you have a "beef with Christianity". We already know you don't believe the Bible is 100% God's word. So what's your point?
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I did. Go back and read. The Bible does NOT say Slavery is a sin. God would have a problem if I bought a slave child, or adult for that matter, today. God would not be happy with me doing that today. So what's your point?
Really? where in the bible does it say this? Or is this your opinion? (the bold underlined sentence)
Now answer my question:
You are the one avoiding the issue. Maybe the reason you didn't get the responce you expected of this thread is because nobody understand where you are going with it. You keep jumping from one subject to another. Why don't you go ahead and make your point. We already know you have a "beef with Christianity". We already know you don't believe the Bible is 100% God's word. So what's your point?
I want to know what they are and how many sins there are outside of the 10 commandments and the golden rule for the purpose of seeing the difference between what people considered sins or not.
example: one site i had listed 600 while another listed far less.
I have no problem saying the same thing I've been saying.
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Really? where in the bible does it say this? Or is this your opinion? (the bold underlined sentence)
I will tell you, but first I want to get something straight. Have I not answered your questions up to this point? Is this the next question in your long list of questions that I'm sure are to follow?
Second, you still have not answered my question and you just keep avoiding it. Why is your beef on homosexuality with Christians only and not with Muslims and Jews?
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I will tell you, but first I want to get something straight. Have I not answered your questions up to this point? Is this the next question in your long list of questions that I'm sure are to follow?
At this point you have. (and you if didn't I'll just ask it again ;))
Second, you still have not answered my question and you just keep avoiding it. Why is your beef on homosexuality with Christians only and not with Muslims and Jews?
You are assuming I have a beef with homosexuality only with Christians. I suppose i don't because I'd be saying and asking the same things if there was a Muslim or Jew here to answer them. But in this topic: which is about Christianity.... i am using it here as an example to compare to slavery which is really a left over issue from our discussion in the "all-loving God" topic
I hope it helps you understand why, but if you don;t I'm OK with answering it again :)
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At this point you have. (and you if didn't I'll just ask it again ;))
I had already answered your questions, but you kept on asking them anyway. So it does not matter whether I answer or not, you're just going to keep on asking the same questions over and over again.
You are assuming I have a beef with homosexuality only with Christians. I suppose i don't because I'd be saying and asking the same things if there was a Muslim or Jew here to answer them. But in this topic: which is about Christianity.... i am using it here as an example to compare to slavery which is really a left over issue from our discussion in the "all-loving God" topic
I am not assuming. You said:
I'm interested to know all the things considered "sins" outside the ten commandments in Christianity.
At the moment, I'm focusing on Christianity
And one of my BIG beefs with Christianity or at least the Bible is what's considered sins.
I do disagree and I've been very consistent in saying that at least with the homosexuality part
Now you are changing your story. Tell me why you direct your question at Christianity only and not at Judaism and Islam as well? Tell me what they would tell you different about slavery and homosexuality in the Old Testament? OzmO, your anger against Christians is very obvious. Give it up. You are only hurting yourself. The happiest people are those who forgive quickly and often.
I hope it helps you understand why, but if you don;t I'm OK with answering it again :)
No, but I won't ask again. It's obvious you do not want to answer and I respect that. You ask me the same question over and over again after I have already answered you. You won't answer my questions, so I won't ask anymore.
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Really? where in the bible does it say this? Or is this your opinion? (the bold underlined sentence)
I would not buy a slave today because:
1. Today, children and women, and sometimes even adult men, are kidnapped and sold as slaves for prostitution and forced labor. Is that a sin according to the Bible? YES.
Exodus 21:16
"Anyone who kidnaps another and either sells him or still has him when he is caught must be put to death.
Deuteronomy 24:7
If a man is caught kidnapping one of his brother Israelites and treats him as a slave or sells him, the kidnapper must die. You must purge the evil from among you.
2. According to the Bible, slavery is a bad practice, but setting slaves free is a good practice.
Deuteronomy 23:15-16
15 "You shall not give back to his master the slave who has escaped from his master to you. 16 He may dwell with you in your midst, in the place which he chooses within one of your gates, where it seems best to him; you shall not oppress him."
Isaiah 58:6
"Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?"
Jeremiah 34:10
So all the officials and people who entered into this covenant agreed that they would free their male and female slaves and no longer hold them in bondage. They agreed, and set them free.
Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
3. The law of the land makes selling, buying and owning slaves illegal, thanks to these Christian and Bible believing men:
America:
John Brown
Frederick Douglass
Abraham Lincoln
Britain:
William Wilberforce
Granville Sharp
Thomas Clarkson
Breaking the law of the land is a sin according to the Bible, unless the law of the land requires me to do something which the law of God tells me not to do. In this case, the law of the land does not tell me to do something that God told me not to do. God never commanded me to buy slaves.
I want to know what they are and how many sins there are outside of the 10 commandments and the golden rule for the purpose of seeing the difference between what people considered sins or not.
example: one site i had listed 600 while another listed far less.
I have no problem saying the same thing I've been saying.
And that's fine, OzmO. You posted your question and you got some answers. But, then you said
Guess no one wants to touch this one?
Are we afraid we might uncover sins you are not aware of and be forced to give something up?
I saw a sight that listed 600 sins in the bible. ouch. probably not too precise however.
Obviously, we don't agree with your website and its 600 sins. If we did, we would have posted the same 600 sins, but we didn't. Now you are accusing readers of being afraid? Why do you get angry that people don't respond to your thread?
Let go of the anger, man. It's not good for you. :)
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Why do you assume I'm angry? You assume many things loco. If i was angry I'd say so. You are reading it assuming i am angry.
Do i have to be angry to ask these questions of the Bible?
I was prodding because of lack of responses. Basically , outside the 10 commandments we have what 3 more sins?
There is much more fuel for the fire and brimstone of the typical Sunday sermon I'm sure. But your unwillingness to answer or respond is telling at the least.
But back to your defense of slavery in the Bible.
After reading your quotes I see that while "God" seems to very indirectly forbid slavery in some of the quotes, he also gives very direct guidelines on how to own, purchase and deal with slave children
Looks like a contradiction. (Not that you'd see it that way)
Think of how much less slavery there would have been in the western world in the 1800 years since Christ if God had forbid it in the Bible or the people who decided to but the Bible together in Nicea, where correctly inspired with some forethought from God and left it out altogether. Why do you supposed that is? Perhaps because it was the culture of the times and of the people who put it together?
Slavery is a very un-divine thing written about in the bible and attributed to it the "infallible word of God" and is part of a list of other contradictions and un-divine things about God in the Bible.
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STella, great posts, both of them. ;D
OzmO, you should read STella's posts above. I know that they are long, but they are great reads.
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I was prodding because of lack of responses.
Guess no one wants to touch this one?
But your unwillingness to answer or respond is telling at the least.
tu_holmes, Colossus_500, STella and I responded. I guess we are nobody to you and our responses don't count.
There is much more fuel for the fire and brimstone of the typical Sunday sermon I'm sure.
You assume that the typical Sunday sermon at Christian churches is about fire and brimstone. I'm sorry if that is the only sermon you were ever exposed to. I go to church three times a week, every week. I have been a member of several Christian churches in more than one country. The typical sermon at all these Christian churches is not about fire and brimstone, but about salvation through faith in Jesus Christ and about God's love for us, about forgiveness and about loving and helping others. Actually, I don't remember ever hearing a sermon strictly on fire and brimstone.
Think of how much less slavery there would have been in the western world in the 1800 years since Christ if God had forbid it in the Bible or the people who decided to but the Bible together in Nicea, where correctly inspired with some forethought from God and left it out altogether. Why do you supposed that is? Perhaps because it was the culture of the times and of the people who put it together?
But God did forbid it. The Bible did forbid the slavery of the western world in the 1800s. In the 1800s western world slavery, Africans were kidnapped and taken away from their families and from their homes, then sold as slaves in Asia, then shipped to Europe and to America. This is clearly a sin.
Exodus 21:16
"Anyone who kidnaps another and either sells him or still has him when he is caught must be put to death.
Deuteronomy 24:7
If a man is caught kidnapping one of his brother Israelites and treats him as a slave or sells him, the kidnapper must die. You must purge the evil from among you.
In the 1800s western world slavery, slave masters were entitled to kill their slaves if they so chose to. Many slaves were shot or bitten to death by their masters. They owned the slave's life and the law of the land did not punish them for killing their slaves. But in the Bible, this is forbidden.
Exodus 21:20
"If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished"
So it is not that God didn't forbid it. It is more that many people refused to obey the Bible.
Those who supported slavery in the western world in the 1800s did not use the Bible as an excuse. They did not use the Bible to support slavery. They used the economy and politics to support their arguments. Some of them didn't even believe in the Bible.
But those who did believe in the Bible and obeyed it did not own slaves, they opposed slavery, they fought slavery and contributed to the abolishion of slavery in the western world:
America:
John Brown
Frederick Douglass
Abraham Lincoln
Britain:
William Wilberforce
Granville Sharp
Thomas Clarkson
American slave holding was practiced in all the early colonies. By the mid 1700s Brethren had settled in Pennsylvania, Maryland, and Virginia. Abolition societies began in several northern states, working together to promote the abolition of slavery. The early Brethren rejected both slavery and the abolition societies. The Church of the Brethren (German Baptist Brethren) Annual Meeting repeatedly insisted that Brethren may not own slaves.
If people who owned slaves desired membership among the Brethren, they had to free their slaves first and compensate them for the work they had done. Ministers who defended slavery were treated firmly and could be excommunicated from the church. Slavery was simply not tolerated by the nineteenth century Brethren.
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tu_holmes, Colossus_500, STella and I responded. I guess we are nobody to you and our responses don't count.
And what other sins did we come up with? I'm not saying those contributions didn't count all i'm saying is that i believe we could have come up with more. And you know what i mean and you know I'm right in knowing there are more you can come up with. But for what ever reason you refuse to do so which as said earlier is telling.
You assume that the typical Sunday sermon at Christian churches is about fire and brimstone. I'm sorry if that is the only sermon you were ever exposed to. I go to church three times a week, every week. I have been a member of several Christian churches in more than one country. The typical sermon at all these Christian churches is not about fire and brimstone, but about salvation through faith in Jesus Christ and about God's love for us, about forgiveness and about loving and helping others. Actually, I don't remember ever hearing a sermon strictly on fire and brimstone.
Did i ever say strictly? Did i say every? (not meant to be sarcastic, not arrogant, I'm just trying to be exact here so that meanings don't get misinterpreted) I said the typical fire and brimstone Sunday sermon. Do those type of sermons not exist? Are there not sins preachers talk about? These are the sins I'm looking for.
But God did forbid it. The Bible did forbid the slavery of the western world in the 1800s. In the 1800s western world slavery, Africans were kidnapped and taken away from their families and from their homes, then sold as slaves in Asia, then shipped to Europe and to America. This is clearly a sin.
Exodus 21:16
"Anyone who kidnaps another and either sells him or still has him when he is caught must be put to death.
Deuteronomy 24:7
If a man is caught kidnapping one of his brother Israelites and treats him as a slave or sells him, the kidnapper must die. You must purge the evil from among you.
In the 1800s western world slavery, slave masters were entitled to kill their slaves if they so chose to. Many slaves were shot or bitten to death by their masters. They owned the slave's life and the law of the land did not punish them for killing their slaves. But in the Bible, this is forbidden.
Exodus 21:20
"If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished"
So it is not that God didn't forbid it. It is more that many people refused to obey the Bible.
Those who supported slavery in the western world in the 1800s did not use the Bible as an excuse. They did not use the Bible to support slavery. They used the economy and politics to support their arguments. Some of them didn't even believe in the Bible.
But those who did believe in the Bible and obeyed it did not own slaves, they opposed slavery, they fought slavery and contributed to the abolishion of slavery in the western world:
America:
John Brown
Frederick Douglass
Abraham Lincoln
Britain:
William Wilberforce
Granville Sharp
Thomas Clarkson
So slavery is OK in God's eyes if the person owes you money or something outside kidnapping them?? It's ok to buy and sell their children as property?
It's funny, in your defense of this you can't even agree that one direct denunciation of slavery or in combination an absence of instructing people on how to buy sell and treat slaves would have helped stem off slavery that has plagued people for the 1500 years since the Bible was assembled?
These people in the south in the 1800's were but the tip of the iceberg in the 1500 years prior to that where people were enslaved.
And it still remains, that he even in his indirect approach to forbidding slavery, he did also directly give instructions on how to buy, sell and treat them.
Replace the word slavery with stealing, raping or murdering and see how it sounds in all those passages. The contradiction will be more clear.
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And what other sins did we come up with? I'm not saying those contributions didn't count all i'm saying is that i believe we could have come up with more. And you know what i mean and you know I'm right in knowing there are more you can come up with. But for what ever reason you refuse to do so which as said earlier is telling.
You asked, we responded. Now what? Make your point or let it go already.
Did i ever say strictly? Did i say every? (not meant to be sarcastic, not arrogant, I'm just trying to be exact here so that meanings don't get misinterpreted) I said the typical fire and brimstone Sunday sermon. Do those type of sermons not exist? Are there not sins preachers talk about? These are the sins I'm looking for.
Yes, some preachers do preach on fire and brimstone, I guess. But you said the "typical" Sunday sermon.
So slavery is OK in God's eyes if the person owes you money or something outside kidnapping them?? It's ok to buy and sell their children as property?
It's funny, in your defense of this you can't even agree that one direct denunciation of slavery or in combination an absence of instructing people on how to buy sell and treat slaves would have helped stem off slavery that has plagued people for the 1500 years since the Bible was assembled?
These people in the south in the 1800's were but the tip of the iceberg in the 1500 years prior to that where people were enslaved.
And it still remains, that he even in his indirect approach to forbidding slavery, he did also directly give instructions on how to buy, sell and treat them.
Replace the word slavery with stealing, raping or murdering and see how it sounds in all those passages. The contradiction will be more clear.
What? You specifically said "the western world in the 1800", so I gave you a response about slavery in the western world in the 1800.
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Here's what i said:
Think of how much less slavery there would have been in the western world in the 1800 years since Christ if God had forbid it in the Bible or the people who decided to but the Bible together in Nicea, where correctly inspired with some forethought from God and left it out altogether. Why do you supposed that is? Perhaps because it was the culture of the times and of the people who put it together?
So, no problem, it was a mistake.
You asked, we responded. Now what? Make your point or let it go already.
I just did make a point of your unwillingness to answer the question. You are not obligated to answer. But you not answering says something.
but i'll ask again anyway.
Are these all the sins outside of the 10 commandments and the golden rule? If not what are they?
Yes, some preachers do preach on fire and brimstone, I guess. But you said the "typical" Sunday sermon.
I see how you can get the meaning you did from what i wrote. But I'm sure you also understand what i was really getting at.
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Question, is going over the speed limit a sin according to the Bible?
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Question, is going over the speed limit a sin according to the Bible?
Yes
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You are about to start eating a hot dog. Homeless guy next to you is really starving and begging you for half your hot dog. You don't give him anything but eat your hot dog in front of him and make sure he sees that you really are enjoying it. That's a sin.
I can come up with 1 billion sins. That's why we are all in need of a saviour. That is why we all need Jesus. ;D
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Yes, but enslaving someone and their children because they owe you money is not. ;)
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Yes, but enslaving someone and their children because they owe you money is not. ;)
That would be breaking the law of the land. So yes, it is a sin. ;)
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That would be breaking the law of the land. So yes, it is a sin. ;)
So then if you are on a island, in the middle of the ocean that is not claimed by any nation, then it's ok. ;D
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So then if you are on a island, in the middle of the ocean that is not claimed by any nation, then it's ok. ;D
What's the law of the land there? If the law of the land there says that if I file for bankruptcy my family and I must work for my lender without pay for 7 years, I guess we'll have to do it. :-\
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What's the law of the land there? If the law of the land there says that if I file for bankruptcy my family and I must work for my lender without pay for 7 years, I guess we'll have to do it. :-\
Working to pay back a debt and Slavery for you and your family are 2 very different things.
We are assuming the is no laws. no government. Or better yet, how about if Slavery is legal?
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Working to pay back a debt and Slavery for you and your family are 2 very different things.
We are assuming the is no laws. no government. Or better yet, how about if Slavery is legal?
Working without pay is not slavery?
OzmO, have you committed no sin, ever?
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Working without pay is not slavery?
nope.
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source
slav·er·y /ˈsleɪvəri, ˈsleɪvri/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[sley-vuh-ree, sleyv-ree] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. the condition of a slave; bondage.
2. the keeping of slaves as a practice or institution.
3. a state of subjection like that of a slave: He was kept in slavery by drugs.
4. severe toil; drudgery.
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source
slave /sleɪv/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[sleyv] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation noun, verb, slaved, slav·ing.
–noun
1. a person who is the property of and wholly subject to another; a bond servant.
2. a person entirely under the domination of some influence or person: a slave to a drug.
3. a drudge: a housekeeping slave.
4. a slave ant.
5. Photography. a subsidiary flash lamp actuated through its photoelectric cell when the principal flash lamp is discharged.
6. Machinery. a mechanism under control of and repeating the actions of a similar mechanism. Compare master (def. 19).
–verb (used without object)
7. to work like a slave; drudge.
8. to engage in the slave trade; procure, transport, or sell slaves.
–verb (used with object)
9. to connect (a machine) to a master as its slave.
10. Archaic. to enslave.
OzmO, have you committed no sin, ever?
You know the answer to that. ;D
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BTW, i've worked plenty without being paid in my life for many different reasons. Charity, sales, or just to help. I believe the more you give the more you receive...... ;D
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BTW, i've worked plenty without being paid in my life for many different reasons. Charity, sales, or just to help. I believe the more you give the more you receive...... ;D
Oh, I wasn't talking about that kind of work without pay. That's volunteer work. We all have done that, haven't we? That's why it's called "volunteer" work. Working for seven years without pay in order to pay your debt, not something you volunteer to do, but something that people were required to do by law, isn't that slavery?
OzmO, have you committed no sin, ever? I don't know if you believe that you have, until you answer the question. I believe we all have sinned because the Bible says so and I believe the Bible is the word of God, but you don't. So I don't know the answer to that question.
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Oh, I wasn't talking about that kind of work without pay. That's volunteer work. We all have done that, haven't we? That's why it's called "volunteer" work. Working for seven years without pay in order to pay your debt, not something you volunteer to do, but something that people were required to do by law, isn't that slavery?
Does it fit the definition of slavery? I don't know. Are you talking about then or now?
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OzmO, have you committed no sin, ever? I don't know if you believe that you have, until you answer the question. I believe we all have sinned because the Bible says so and I believe the Bible is the word of God, but you don't. So I don't know the answer to that question.
I have sinned.
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Does it fit the definition of slavery? I don't know. Are you talking about then or now?
I am talking about the Island. And if the loan my kids and I are working seven years to pay is sold by my lender to another lender, say Bank of America to Wells Fargo, would that not be equivalent to my kids and I being sold as slaves? That is slavery, and it is against the law today. Therefore, it is a sin.
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I am talking about the Island. And if the loan my kids and I are working seven years to pay is sold by my lender to another lender, say Bank of America to Wells Fargo, would that not be equivalent to my kids and I being sold as slaves? That is slavery, and it is against the law today. Therefore, it is a sin.
That works only because it's indirect. What if worship was against the law? What if killing was legal?
Also what you outline there isn't the equal to the definition.
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I have sinned.
Thanks for your honest answer!
Then, since you have sinned, as a Christian, I believe that you are in need of a saviour. I believe that you need Jesus Christ, no matter how many sins Christians post on this thread.
I'm not trying to ask personal questions or asking you to be specific, but for the sake of this thread its question to the board, was your sin/sins outside the 10 commandments?
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Thanks for your honest answer!
Then, since you have sinned, as a Christian, I believe that you are in need of a saviour. I believe that you need Jesus Christ, no matter how many sins Christians post on this thread.
I'm not trying to ask personal questions or asking you to be specific, but for the sake of this thread its question to the board, was your sin/sins outside the 10 commandments?
In my lifetime, some inside, and depending on what you call sins outside the 10 commandments i sure i have there too.
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and depending on what you call sins outside the 10 commandments
What do you call sins outside the 10 commandments, OzmO?
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What do you call sins outside the 10 commandments, OzmO?
Well that's one of the things i was getting at with this thread ;D
But i would say anything through your actions that directly causes, suffering harm or victimizes someone.
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That works only because it's indirect. What if worship was against the law? What if killing was legal?
If the law of the land does not oppose the law of God, then according to the Bible, breaking the law of the land is a sin.
If the law of the land opposes the law of God, then according to the Bible obeying the law of the land is a sin.
Worship is against the law in China, and many Christians there have been arrested, tortured and killed for breaking that law. They did not sin for breaking that law, because it opposes God's law. Many Christians have been arrested, tortured and killed in countries like Iran, Saudi Arabia, Turkey and China because they worshiped the God of Israel and His Son, Jesus Christ.
If the law of the land commanded me to murder all homosexuals, not only would I not obey that law, but I would join homosexuals and fight for their right to live. German Christians during WWII were arrested, tortured and killed for breaking the law of the land that commanded them to kill Jews. Not only did they not kill Jews, but these Christians gave their life to save Jews.
Also what you outline there isn't the equal to the definition.
OzmO, look up the definition of "debt slavery", or google it.
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If the law of the land does not oppose the law of God, then according to the Bible, breaking the law of the land is a sin.
If the law of the land opposes the law of God, then according to the Bible obeying the law of the land is a sin.
Worship is against the law in China, and many Christians there have been arrested, tortured and killed for breaking that law. They did not sin for breaking that law, because it opposes God's law. Many Christians have been arrested, tortured and killed in countries like Iran, Saudi Arabia, Turkey and China because they worshiped the God of Israel and His Son, Jesus Christ.
If the law of the land commanded me to murder all homosexuals, not only would I not obey that law, but I would join homosexuals and fight for their right to live. German Christians during WWII were arrested, tortured and killed for breaking the law of the land that commanded them to kill Jews. Not only did they not kill Jews, but these Christians gave their life to save Jews.
OzmO, look up the definition of "debt slavery", or google it.
I trust your interpretation of "debt slavery" is correct.
But it isn't call that in the Bible or even talked about it that way. It's plain slavery with all it's ills.