Getbig Bodybuilding, Figure and Fitness Forums
Getbig Misc Discussion Boards => Religious Debates & Threads => Topic started by: Dos Equis on May 05, 2007, 12:25:35 PM
-
Continued from a discussion I was having with Straw Man on the Political Board. http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=144837.75
This is something that continues to baffle me. The Bible is very clear about homosexuality:
1. The men of Sodom were described as "exceedingly wicked and sinful against the Lord." Gen. 13:13. This "wickedness" and "sinfulness" was homosexuality.
2. There was an "outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah . . . because their sin is very grievous." Gen. 18:20.
3. When angels came to get Lot and his family out of Sodom, before it was destroyed, the men of Sodom tried to rape them: "And they called to Lot and said to him, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may know them carnally." Gen. 19:5.
4. Sodom was eventually destroyed because of homosexuality: "For we will destroy this place, because the outcry against them has grown great before the face of the Lord, and the Lord has sent us to destroy it." Gen. 19:13.
5. Later, ceremonial laws, rules, etc. were given to the Jews. You can argue, as I believe, these ceremonial laws, rules, etc. do not apply to us today, but there is a clear admonition against homosexuality: "If a man lies with a man as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them." Lev. 20:13.
6. The New Testament condemns homosexuality. In Romans, when talking about people dishonoring their bodies, Paul says: "For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due." Rom. 1:26-27.
7. In the second to the last book of the Bible, there is a reminder that Sodom and Gomorrah, and other cities, were destroyed because of homosexuality: "as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." Jude 1:7.
This seems pretty clear to me. I do not understand how a church can endorse homosexual marriage in light of these verses.
-
Because they're not judgemental fucks like you :)
-
Because they're not judgemental fucks like you :)
Stop with your idiocy........how is it judgemental if scripture makes it clear?
-
Sky pixie freaks, unite!
-
Perhaps the sinfulness spoken of in Sodom and Gomorrah was rape, and not homosexuality?
-
Perhaps the sinfulness spoken of in Sodom and Gomorrah was rape, and not homosexuality?
perhaps but then why did Lot offer his two virgin daughters to the crowd instead?
"Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him and said, "No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing. Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don't do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof."
Interesting morality on the part of Lot eh?
BTW - can anyone conceive of any city, ancient or modern where all the townsmen both young and old, swarm their neighbors house demanding to sodomize their guests. This story is preposterous and I can't believe that any adult with normal brain function would take it seriously
-
perhaps but then why did Lot offer his two virgin daughters to the crowd instead?
"Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him and said, "No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing. Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don't do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof."
Interesting morality on the part of Lot eh?
BTW - can anyone conceive of any city, ancient or modern where all the townsmen both young and old, swarm their neighbors house demanding to sodomize their guests. This story is preposterous and I can't believe that any adult with normal brain function would take it seriously
i agree, and outrageous stories like this one are repeated other times in the Bible.
-
Perhaps the sinfulness spoken of in Sodom and Gomorrah was rape, and not homosexuality?
Nah.
7. In the second to the last book of the Bible, there is a reminder that Sodom and Gomorrah, and other cities, were destroyed because of homosexuality: "as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." Jude 1:7.
-
i agree, and outrageous stories like this one are repeated other times in the Bible.
What are your thoughts on a church endorsing homosexual marriage?
-
What are your thoughts on a church endorsing homosexual marriage?
Well, it depends on the Church's view of whether or not they believe that "every" word printed in the bible is the 100% word of God. If they belive that it is then they are being hypocrites.
If they believe the Bible is a book of stories that contain lessons from god and the overall message is salvation through accepting Christ and that the sin of homosexuality is a cultural thing woven in the many historical accounts and doctrine, then i see no problem with it.
-
Well, it depends on the Church's view of whether or not they believe that "every" word printed in the bible is the 100% word of God. If they belive that it is then they are being hypocrites.
If they believe the Bible is a book of stories that contain lessons from god and the overall message is salvation through accepting Christ and that the sin of homosexuality is a cultural thing woven in the many historical accounts and doctrine, then i see no problem with it.
Makes sense. I think most Protestant religions do accept the Bible as the word of God. I don't think this homosexual issue should even be debated in those churches.
What they do need to address is how they treat homosexuals.
-
Makes sense. I think most Protestant religions do accept the Bible as the word of God. I don't think this homosexual issue should even be debated in those churches.
What they do need to address is how they treat homosexuals.
just wondering who "they" is?
seriously though, do you have any "treatment" ideas ?
forget that
back on point, haven't I already conceded that there are quotes from the bible that condemn homosexuality?
You seem to know exactly what stuff to agree with and what is DUMB
I have to be honest, I have a harder time understanding this than you do
Can you please explain it to me?
Example, why did you choose the story of Lot?
You must have read it so what should we make of the part where Lot offers his virgin daughters to the mob of sex crazed gay guys (apparently the entire town - how did Lot not know this before?) if only they not would rape his guests (who just happened to be angels).
What was God trying to tell me when he wrote this story or when he "inspired" some guy to write this story
Honestly, it sounds like some kind of gay sex fantasy but I know that's not the point.
Why does Lot value these angel guys more than his own daughters?
I'm not kidding
I don't get it
Seriously
-
I wasn't talking about curing homosexuality. I was talking about how Christians treat homosexuals as persons and fellow Christians. I think in many cases there is a failure to separate the act from the person, which Christians are supposed to do. I don't view a homosexual any differently from any other person from a Christian perspective. Their "sin" is just more open than some others. Everyone has issues.
I can generally tell when someone, like you, is disingenuous. That's what makes a question about my daughter being stoned a dumb question.
Sorry, but I don't understand your question about not getting it. I didn't choose the story of Lot. I quoted most, if not all, of the Biblical references to homosexuality. I think if you read them and consider them all together they convey a very clear message about homosexuality.
-
I wasn't talking about curing homosexuality. I was talking about how Christians treat homosexuals as persons and fellow Christians. I think in many cases there is a failure to separate the act from the person, which Christians are supposed to do. I don't view a homosexual any differently from any other person from a Christian perspective. Their "sin" is just more open than some others. Everyone has issues.
I can generally tell when someone, like you, is disingenuous. That's what makes a question about my daughter being stoned a dumb question.
Sorry, but I don't understand your question about not getting it. I didn't choose the story of Lot. I quoted most, if not all, of the Biblical references to homosexuality. I think if you read them and consider them all together they convey a very clear message about homosexuality.
B-Bum - I think you and I are on the same page
somewhere
somehow
I know you've read the bible
many times
have you ever read the bhagavad gita or the heart sutra?
-
the bible also said the sun was created on the 4th day ... kinda hard to get to day 4 with no sun on days 1-3
oh wait, god created light on the first day
so now light doesnt come from the sun ::)
.
we are all descended from adam and eve who had 3 sons followed by 800 years of more kids...
if you believe in the bible you believe you are the product of incest ...
of course the bible specifically rejects incest ... leviticus 18:6-18 ... in particular leviticus 18:9 'do not have sexual relations with your sister, either your father's daughter or your mother's daughter, whether she was born in the same home or elsewhere.'
.
fools will bend over backwards trying to make this fit reason but its nothing more than cognitive dissonance ... the bible is clearly the amalgamation of thousands of years of oral and written mythical tradition ... a good read but nothing more unless you have the IQ of a peanut
-
B-Bum - I think you and I are on the same page
somewhere
somehow
I know you've read the bible
many times
have you ever read the bhagavad gita or the heart sutra?
I've read the Bhagavad Gita. It's on my office shelf, along with The Analects of Confucius, a book on Taoism, and a book about ancient Hawaiian mythology. Why?
-
I wasn't talking about curing homosexuality. I was talking about how Christians treat homosexuals as persons and fellow Christians. I think in many cases there is a failure to separate the act from the person, which Christians are supposed to do. I don't view a homosexual any differently from any other person from a Christian perspective. Their "sin" is just more open than some others. Everyone has issues.
I can generally tell when someone, like you, is disingenuous. That's what makes a question about my daughter being stoned a dumb question.
Sorry, but I don't understand your question about not getting it. I didn't choose the story of Lot. I quoted most, if not all, of the Biblical references to homosexuality. I think if you read them and consider them all together they convey a very clear message about homosexuality.
Bum - somehow I missed this from you.
What's your problem with my question about stoning your daughter. Why do you get to choose that some parts of the bible (such as your various quotes condeming homosexuality) as "very clear" yet other parts of the same book that condemn other things as dumb and disingenous. I assure you that my questions in this matter are completely sincere and I've tried to make them as clear as possible. How many times now have I've asked you this same question only to have you ignore it or disregard. Personally, I think you feign this indignation because you have no good answer. The only thing even close to a response is this statement from you where you claim (rather you believe)that some ceremonial laws just don't apply to us today. This is pretty convenient. Would you care to show me where in the Bible these laws were revoked. Is stoning your unchaste daughter on her wedding night considered a ceremony of some kind. I'm going to need more than just "you believe" as proof that these condemnations and their associated punishments no longer apply. If not then what prevents another person (or another church for that matter) just "believing" that other things such as the condemnation of homosexuality (or ploughing with an ox and an ass together) no longer apply. Your belief vs. their belief - What's the difference?
Continued from a discussion I was having with Straw Man on the Political Board. http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=144837.75
5. Later, ceremonial laws, rules, etc. were given to the Jews. You can argue, as I believe, these ceremonial laws, rules, etc. do not apply to us today, but there is a clear admonition against homosexuality: "If a man lies with a man as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them." Lev. 20:13.
Secondly, YOU CHOSE the story of Lot for it's bizarre lesson against homosexuality. In the very next paragragh after the one you posted Lot offers his virgin daughters to the town of sex crazed men if only they won't rape his angel friends. Why won't you comment on this. How can you parse a few lines out of a story and then ignore the rest of it. Do you seriously expect anyone to look at one quote out of the entire story but then not question the rest of the story. Are you saying we should just disregard the rest of the story. Doesn't it seem horrible to you that Lot would offer up his virgin daughters to this crowd Seriously, you don't have any thoughts about that?? I'm asking you in all sincerity.
-
Bum - somehow I missed this from you.
What's your problem with my question about stoning your daughter. Why do you get to choose that some parts of the bible (such as your various quotes condeming homosexuality) as "very clear" yet other parts of the same book that condemn other things as dumb and disingenous. I assure you that my questions in this matter are completely sincere and I've tried to make them as clear as possible. How many times now have I've asked you this same question only to have you ignore it or disregard. Personally, I think you feign this indignation because you have no good answer. The only thing even close to a response is this statement from you where you claim (rather you believe)that some ceremonial laws just don't apply to us today. This is pretty convenient. Would you care to show me where in the Bible these laws were revoked. Is stoning your unchaste daughter on her wedding night considered a ceremony of some kind. I'm going to need more than just "you believe" as proof that these condemnations and their associated punishments no longer apply. If not then what prevents another person (or another church for that matter) just "believing" that other things such as the condemnation of homosexuality (or ploughing with an ox and an ass together) no longer apply. Your belief vs. their belief - What's the difference?
Secondly, YOU CHOSE the story of Lot for it's bizarre lesson against homosexuality. In the very next paragragh after the one you posted Lot offers his virgin daughters to the town of sex crazed men if only they won't rape his angel friends. Why won't you comment on this. How can you parse a few lines out of a story and then ignore the rest of it. Do you seriously expect anyone to look at one quote out of the entire story but then not question the rest of the story. Are you saying we should just disregard the rest of the story. Doesn't it seem horrible to you that Lot would offer up his virgin daughters to this crowd Seriously, you don't have any thoughts about that?? I'm asking you in all sincerity.
1. The passages that talk about stoning daughters were part of laws, rules, etc. given to the Jews that don't apply to us today. I think you only ask these questions to try and justify your hostility towards Christianity.
2. I didn't choose the story. I quoted ALL (I think) of the Biblical references to homosexuality. It is telling that the story of Sodom and Gomorrah is referenced in the second to the last book of the Bible (Jude).
3. What exactly are you asking me about Lot? Whether it was appropriate for him to offer his daughters instead of the angels? Who the heck cares . . . besides you? I think sending his daughters out to be raped was horrible and giving up angels to be raped would be horrible. So was a mob of homosexual men trying to rape two strangers. Maybe he offered his daughters because he knew the men wouldn't want them. I have no idea. And I don't really care.
Regarding "clear" versus "gray" areas of the Bible, this is really a matter of common sense, study, and daily living. Christians disagree on various parts of the Bible. Even my wife and I disagree over how to interpret seemingly "clear" parts of the Bible. I have debates all the time with fellow Christians on various religious issues.
But there are some things that are crystal clear, like homosexuality. The only way to find ambiguity in the Biblical discussions of homosexuality is to check your common sense at the door.
-
1. The passages that talk about stoning daughters were part of laws, rules, etc. given to the Jews that don't apply to us today. I think you only ask these questions to try and justify your hostility towards Christianity.
2. I didn't choose the story. I quoted ALL (I think) of the Biblical references to homosexuality. It is telling that the story of Sodom and Gomorrah is referenced in the second to the last book of the Bible (Jude).
3. What exactly are you asking me about Lot? Whether it was appropriate for him to offer his daughters instead of the angels? Who the heck cares . . . besides you? I think sending his daughters out to be raped was horrible and giving up angels to be raped would be horrible. So was a mob of homosexual men trying to rape two strangers. Maybe he offered his daughters because he knew the men wouldn't want them. I have no idea. And I don't really care.
Regarding "clear" versus "gray" areas of the Bible, this is really a matter of common sense, study, and daily living. Christians disagree on various parts of the Bible. Even my wife and I disagree over how to interpret seemingly "clear" parts of the Bible. I have debates all the time with fellow Christians on various religious issues.
But there are some things that are crystal clear, like homosexuality. The only way to find ambiguity in the Biblical discussions of homosexuality is to check your common sense at the door.
1. Who says these rules don't apply today - YOU??????????? Is that all you've got to go on? BTW - I'm not Jewish so does that mean that I can ignore all of these rules. What about Chinese or Eskimos? Can they ignore them too.
2. Why do you continue this nonsense - of course YOU CHOSE this story - Did someone else write your post. It's hiliarous (or insane) that you pick one part of the story out of context but then just discount the rest of it as garbage. I do find it interesting that you say you don't care about the fate of Lot's daughters. What kind of father would do that to his children? How can you say you don't care about that? It really does seem that you simply choose to believe as "crystal clear" only those things which fit your pre-existing prejudice while just ignoring everything else. From everything you've written it seems that the only source or proof you can provide are words taken out of context and your own infallable common sense
3. Have you ever paused to consider that since your wife and your other christian friends also argue with you and have a problem seeing what is so obvious and crystal clear to you that maybe you're the one that might be deluded. Your arguments are bereft of logic and "proof" seems to always come down to something along the line of "well it's obvious to me". Do you find it a burden that god blessed you with this ability to see things so clearly when many others (even a presumably sympathetic person such as your wife or friends) can't "see it" ? Personally, I find it amazing that you can so confidently dissect a story down to the sentence and know exactly what stuff to follow and what stuff to simply ignore.
-
1. Who says these rules don't apply today - YOU??????????? Is that all you've got to go on? BTW - I'm not Jewish so does that mean that I can ignore all of these rules. What about Chinese or Eskimos? Can they ignore them too.
2. Why do you continue this nonsense - of course YOU CHOSE this story - Did someone else write your post. It's hiliarous (or insane) that you pick one part of the story out of context but then just discount the rest of it as garbage. I do find it interesting that you say you don't care about the fate of Lot's daughters. What kind of father would do that to his children? How can you say you don't care about that? It really does seem that you simply choose to believe as "crystal clear" only those things which fit your pre-existing prejudice while just ignoring everything else. From everything you've written it seems that the only source or proof you can provide are words taken out of context and your own infallable common sense
3. Have you ever paused to consider that since your wife and your other christian friends also argue with you and have a problem seeing what is so obvious and crystal clear to you that maybe you're the one that might be deluded. Your arguments are bereft of logic and "proof" seems to always come down to something along the line of "well it's obvious to me". Do you find it a burden that god blessed you with this ability to see things so clearly when many others (even a presumably sympathetic person such as your wife or friends) can't "see it" ? Personally, I find it amazing that you can so confidently dissect a story down to the sentence and know exactly what stuff to follow and what stuff to simply ignore.
Dialog with you can be difficult, because you ask 25 questions that are all over the place, then complain when you don't get an answer to each one.
1. My lifetime of study, and common sense, tells me so. That's why I don't have to kill a lamb when I confess my sins.
2. ::)
3. No.
-
Dialog with you can be difficult, because you ask 25 questions that are all over the place, then complain when you don't get an answer to each one.
1. My lifetime of study, and common sense, tells me so. That's why I don't have to kill a lamb when I confess my sins.
2. ::)
3. No.
Bum - I write these post in the middle of my work day while watching the market and doing various other work related things. It might seem like I'm asking 25 different questions but I'm usually just repeating the same questions over and over because you refuse to answer them with anything other than your usual gibberish of "common sense" "crystal clear" etc..
Your refusal to actually look at an entire story and it's meaning (or lack thereof) and instead to pull out just the parts that support your prejudice is a joke but I won't waste my time repeating the reasons (obvious to many except you) . If you haven't understood it by now then you are most likely never going to get it.
The idea that you would never consider your point of view to be anything less than flawless, in spite of your admission that your christian friends and your wife have disagreed, is kind of weird/crazy (for real). Why do you think your point of view (being "obvious" and "common sense") is so hard for anyone other than you to understand? What's their problem? Have you tried pointing out that it's obvious and crystal clear to you? Maybe they find your circular logic as lame as I do
-
Bum - I write these post in the middle of my work day while watching the market and doing various other work related things. It might seem like I'm asking 25 different questions but I'm usually just repeating the same questions over and over because you refuse to answer them with anything other than your usual gibberish of "common sense" "crystal clear" etc..
Your refusal to actually look at an entire story and it's meaning (or lack thereof) and instead to pull out just the parts that support your prejudice is a joke but I won't waste my time repeating the reasons (obvious to many except you) . If you haven't understood it by now then you are most likely never going to get it.
The idea that you would never consider your point of view to be anything less than flawless, in spite of your admission that your christian friends and your wife have disagreed, is kind of weird/crazy (for real). Why do you think your point of view (being "obvious" and "common sense") is so hard for anyone other than you to understand? What's their problem? Have you tried pointing out that it's obvious and crystal clear to you? Maybe they find your circular logic as lame as I do
You are the only person posting here who has a full-time job. ::)
I don't waste my time responding to much of the crap you ask me, because many of your questions don't make any dang sense. But just to clarify one, I have discussions and debates with people all the time. I don't approach the discussion/debate with an "I'm right, you're wrong attitude." I actually think that on issues I call "gray areas" that it is up to the individual to decide whether they are right or wrong.
-
You are the only person posting here who has a full-time job. ::)
I don't waste my time responding to much of the crap you ask me, because many of your questions don't make any dang sense. But just to clarify one, I have discussions and debates with people all the time. I don't approach the discussion/debate with an "I'm right, you're wrong attitude." I actually think that on issues I call "gray areas" that it is up to the individual to decide whether they are right or wrong.
Bum
I started this discusion (with you) many pages ago with the question - WHO DECIDES THE GRAY AREAS? -
and the only answer you've given me is that it's just "obvious".
Clearly many Christian Churches think Homosexuality is a Gray area. Some even ignore it outright - just like you do with stoning your unchaste daughter, ploughing with an ox and ass, etc.....
Don't tell me it's "just obvious" and don't pull quotes out the bible unless you're able to tell me exactly why one should follow those particular quotes yet ignore others. Your subjective "belief" that some rules don't apply is unacceptable. If you're going to use that argument that you have to provide a valid explaination of the process for making those choice or it's nothing more than your subjective opinion.
Can I make it any simplier for you than that???
BTW - if you just want to say that it's your opinion that would be fine too but stop pretending like you've provided some kind of objective proof to support your statement.
-
Bum
I started this discusion (with you) many pages ago with the question - WHO DECIDES THE GRAY AREAS? -
and the only answer you've given me is that it's just "obvious".
Clearly many Christian Churches think Homosexuality is a Gray area. Some even ignore it outright - just like you do with stoning your unchaste daughter, ploughing with an ox and ass, etc.....
Don't tell me it's "just obvious" and don't pull quotes out the bible unless you're able to tell me exactly why one should follow those particular quotes yet ignore others. Your subjective "belief" that some rules don't apply is unacceptable. If you're going to use that argument that you have to provide a valid explaination of the process for making those choice or it's nothing more than your subjective opinion.
Can I make it any simplier for you than that???
BTW - if you just want to say that it's your opinion that would be fine too but stop pretending like you've provided some kind of objective proof to support your statement.
Actually, the topic of this thread is how a church can endorse homosexual marriage. I quoted what I believe are all of the passages that address homosexuality at the start of this thread. I don't know how a church that follows the Bible endorses conduct the Bible clearly condemns. I say the only way this happens is the church engages in some contorted spin or simple avoidance of what Bible says about homosexuality. Indeed, you've already conceded that the Bible clearly condemns homosexuality. Sounds like "objective" evidence to me.
On the issue of gray areas, that is obviously my opinion. Some people believe the entire Bible is clear. I don't. Some can read a passage and see A, while I see B. But there are some issues that are clearly black and white, and that most reasonable people would consider black and white. This isn't something you need to agree with. I think the Bible contains commands, prohibitions, recommendations, and advice. Some of those are patently clear to anyone who knows how to read. Some isn't.
I think you're under the mistaken impression that I'm trying to convince you to agree with me. I'm not. You're asking for some kind of justification for my beliefs and you don't like my answers. That's your problem, not mine.
-
I think you're under the mistaken impression that I'm trying to convince you to agree with me. I'm not. You're asking for some kind of justification for my beliefs and you don't like my answers. That's your problem, not mine.
Bum - I don't expect you to convince me of anything on this subject
The problem isn't that I don't "like" your answers. The problem is that your answers objectively don't work.
If I ask you what's 2+2 and you say "blue" it's clear you've given me an answer but it's irrelevant
At this point I'm not really sure if you can even understand that
I'm not going to repeat myself again but I do get the feeling this is either a gag on your part or you're (no offense) a box of rocks.
-
Hey Beach, what would you do if a fag touched your old ass while in church? :D
-
Hey Beach, what would you do if a fag touched your old ass while in church? :D
I think it's more likely that Bum is the old fag in church doing the touching
I base this on nothing other than the fact that I think it's obvious and crystal clear
-
Bum - I don't expect you to convince me of anything on this subject
The problem isn't that I don't "like" your answers. The problem is that your answers objectively don't work.
If I ask you what's 2+2 and you say "blue" it's clear you've given me an answer but it's irrelevant
At this point I'm not really sure if you can even understand that
I'm not going to repeat myself again but I do get the feeling this is either a gag on your part or you're (no offense) a box of rocks.
lol. Dude you just don't get it. I don't need to convince you that I'm comfortable with my opinion.
Hey here is a question I promise to answer: "Does Beach Bum really care what Straw Man thinks?" Go ahead, ask me. :)
-
Hey Beach, what would you do if a fag touched your old ass while in church? :D
If and when that happens, on the day is snows in Honolulu, I'll let you know. :)
-
I think it's more likely that Bum is the old fag in church doing the touching
I base this on nothing other than the fact that I think it's obvious and crystal clear
My recommendation for you (though it may be a tad over your head):
http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Idiots-Guide-Bible-Third/dp/1592573894/ref=pd_bbs_2/104-0316134-7265524?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1178691982&sr=1-2
-
lol. Dude you just don't get it. I don't need to convince you that I'm comfortable with my opinion.
Hey here is a question I promise to answer: "Does Beach Bum really care what Straw Man thinks?" Go ahead, ask me. :)
Glad to see you finally acknowledge that all you've presented is your subjective opinion and nothing more
-
My recommendation for you (though it may be a tad over your head):
http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Idiots-Guide-Bible-Third/dp/1592573894/ref=pd_bbs_2/104-0316134-7265524?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1178691982&sr=1-2
Bum you already know what I think about the bible but I do like the irony of the title
I assume this is where you acquired your wisdom
-
Glad to see you finally acknowledge that all you've presented is your subjective opinion and nothing more
"lol. Dude you just don't get it. I don't need to convince you that I'm comfortable with [THE FACTS].
Hey here is a question I promise to answer: 'Does Beach Bum really care what Straw Man thinks?' Go ahead, ask me."
-
"lol. Dude you just don't get it. I don't need to convince you that I'm comfortable with [THE FACTS].
Hey here is a question I promise to answer: 'Does Beach Bum really care what Straw Man thinks?' Go ahead, ask me."
Bum
I never said you did.
You're the one that keeps bringing it up
Frankly, it's obvious and just common sense that you do care what I think.
The more you deny it the more crystal clear it becomes.
I don't really think you're gay. You're probably just a little bit bi-curious.
It's kind of a "gray area" for you and clearly bothers you.
It's really just common sense
Anyone can see this FACT
Have I mentioned it's obvious?
-
Bum
I never said you did.
You're the one that keeps bringing it up
Frankly, it's obvious and just common sense that you do care what I think.
The more you deny it the more crystal clear it becomes.
I don't really think you're gay. You're probably just a little bit bi-curious.
It's kind of a "gray area" for you and clearly bothers you.
It's really just common sense
Anyone can see this FACT
Have I mentioned it's obvious?
YAWN. ::)
author=Straw Man
Yes - there are sections in the bible (some clear and some not so clear) that condemn homosexuality. I'm agreeing with you on this so there is no need to debate it. Just to be clear I'm agreeing that these quotes exist. I'm not saying that I think they are valid.
author=Straw Man
I've conceded that homosexualty is condemned in the bible - along with many many other things.
-
YAWN. ::)
Bum - all jokes aside, have you ever suffered a traumatic head injury?
Did you actually read the quotes of mine which you posted or are you just fascinated by the squiggly lines?
How many more times do you want to ride this merry-go-round?
-
Perhaps the sinfulness spoken of in Sodom and Gomorrah was rape, and not homosexuality?
Owned.
-
Bum - all jokes aside, have you ever suffered a traumatic head injury?
Did you actually read the quotes of mine which you posted or are you just fascinated by the squiggly lines?
How many more times do you want to ride this merry-go-round?
My biggest handicap is repeatedly responding to idoitic internet questions. But it can be quite entertaining. :)
-
Owned.
Or not:
7. In the second to the last book of the Bible, there is a reminder that Sodom and Gomorrah, and other cities, were destroyed because of homosexuality: "as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." Jude 1:7.
-
Or not:
7. In the second to the last book of the Bible, there is a reminder that Sodom and Gomorrah, and other cities, were destroyed because of homosexuality: "as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." Jude 1:7.
Of course let's not forget that Lot goes on to offer HIS TWO VIRGIN DAUGHTERS TO THIS MOB
"Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him and said, "No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing. Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don't do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof."
Of course that's irrelevent to Beach Bum - he locates the one part of the story that condemns gays but finds the rest of the story meaningless.
Bum - why don't you just cut and paste the parts of bible stories that you like and make your own new bible.
-
Along with the clear denunciation of homosexuality we have Lot offering up his virgin daughters to a angry sex crazed mob and nobody seems to have a problem with this?
All we seem to focus on in the homosexual issue and Lot gets no criticism and no lesson is learned from his action regarding his daughters.......
More un-divine behavior from the alleged "infallible word of God" in the bible. ::)
-
Along with the clear denunciation of homosexuality we have Lot offering up his virgin daughters to a angry sex crazed mob and nobody seems to have a problem with this?
All we seem to focus on in the homosexual issue and Lot gets no criticism and no lesson is learned from his action regarding his daughters.......
More un-divine behavior from the alleged "infallible word of God" in the bible. ::)
O.K. What if we condemn Lot for offering up his daughters to a group of homosexual rapists. How is that significant to the homosexual issue? How is that significant at all? Maybe he was just stupid. There are numerous instances of various people in the Bible doing stupid stuff.
-
O.K. What if we condemn Lot for offering up his daughters to a group of homosexual rapists. How is that significant to the homosexual issue? How is that significant at all? Maybe he was just stupid. There are numerous instances of various people in the Bible doing stupid stuff.
My point is no one has condemned it, including the writers of the Bible, god or otherwise.
You are correct in saying that it is not relevant to the homosexuality issue outside of the transgression being ignored in the story.
but that's my point isn't?......it's un-divine and shows more of a cultural agenda than objectivity. Very similar to modern day radical islamics who would rape a 12 year old girl for walking home with a boy by themselves from school to teach them a lesson. Barbaric.....just like Lot offering his virgin daughters to a mob.
Very un-divine if you buy into the idea that every word of the bible is the "infallible word of God"
-
O.K. What if we condemn Lot for offering up his daughters to a group of homosexual rapists. How is that significant to the homosexual issue? How is that significant at all? Maybe he was just stupid. There are numerous instances of various people in the Bible doing stupid stuff.
have you ever considered it's all stupid?
how about there are some kernels of "truth" but it's mostly stupid?
-
My point is no one has condemned it, including the writers of the Bible, god or otherwise.
You are correct in saying that it is not relevant to the homosexuality issue outside of the transgression being ignored in the story.
but that's my point isn't?......it's un-divine and shows more of a cultural agenda than objectivity. Very similar to modern day radical islamics who would rape a 12 year old girl for walking home with a boy by themselves from school to teach them a lesson. Barbaric.....just like Lot offering his virgin daughters to a mob.
Very un-divine if you buy into the idea that every word of the bible is the "infallible word of God"
Ozmo I don't see it that way. Every act of an individual in the Bible isn't divine and every act, whether good or bad, isn't praised and/or condemned. I think your point would carry more weight if God told Lot to offer his daughters up.
-
have you ever considered it's all stupid?
how about there are some kernels of "truth" but it's mostly stupid?
No.
No.
-
Ozmo I don't see it that way. Every act of an individual in the Bible isn't divine and every act, whether good or bad, is praised and/or condemned. I think your point would carry more weight if God told Lot to offer his daughters up.
Whether God tells Lot to do that or not doesn't change anything. It's how the story is told and what's highlighted as sin "IF" you buy into the idea that "Every" word is the "infallable word of God".
-
No.
No.
you need to seriously face up to the fact that you might be a certifiable idiot
-
Whether God tells Lot to do that or not doesn't change anything. It's how the story is told and what's highlighted as sin "IF" you buy into the idea that "Every" word is the "infallable word of God".
I get that? I don't view Lot's actions any differently than any other person who made a mistake (assuming that's what it was). For example, David committed a heinous act by sleeping with Bathsheba and then sending her husband off to die to cover up the fact he got her pregnant. David's act doesn't make the Bible any less the "word of God," because David did something wrong.
-
you need to seriously face up to the fact that you might be a certifiable idiot
LOL. In his continuing quest to rile Beach Bum, Straw Man continues to try and provoke him with various ridiculous, rambling comments. Perhaps he will eventually figure out that he is wasting his time, even though his entertainment value is still good. He gets an "F" for execution, but a "C" for effort. Maybe he can improve his grades over time. :)
-
LOL. In his continuing quest to rile Beach Bum, Straw Man continues to try and provoke him with various ridiculous, rambling comments. Perhaps he will eventually figure out that he is wasting his time, even though his entertainment value is still good. He gets an "F" for execution, but a "C" for effort. Maybe he can improve his grades over time. :)
I'll make it less personal
your point of view is idiotic
your entire premise is based on your own infallable common sense
By your own admission your wife and other christian friend don't understand your point of view either
One would think that people who also share your christian faith would be able to understand your beliefs if only you could present a cogent argument.
Why are you unable to support your position without drawing on the circular reasoning of "it's just common sense"?
Why are you too stupid to understand this?
-
I get that? I don't view Lot's actions any differently than any other person who made a mistake (assuming that's what it was). For example, David committed a heinous act by sleeping with Bathsheba and then sending her husband off to die to cover up the fact he got her pregnant. David's act doesn't make the Bible any less the "word of God," because David did something wrong.
You are focusing on the act only....I'm not. It's how the act is interpreted or judged or lacked there of, by the writer
-
I'll make it less personal
. . .
Why are you too stupid to understand this?
Tsk tsk. An "F" for performance and "D" for effort. Clearly regressing.
-
You are focusing on the act only....I'm not. It's how the act is interpreted or judged or lacked there of, by the writer
Not really. If the act isn't mentioned at all by the writer, it's kind of hard to draw conclusions on how the act was judged.
The writer says nothing about Lot's offer. In fact, Lot doesn't fare well at all in that story and his life in general. He started off by choosing to live in Sodom, because he thought that land was prime real estate. He then lost his home. He didn't do a standup job raising his daughters. He was married to a materialistic wife, who died. His daughters wound up essentially raping him. Pretty dark ending for Lot. :-\
-
Perhaps the sinfulness spoken of in Sodom and Gomorrah was rape, and not homosexuality?
This isn't the only case in scripture with regard to the topic. Read Judges 19.
-
My recommendation for you (though it may be a tad over your head):
http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Idiots-Guide-Bible-Third/dp/1592573894/ref=pd_bbs_2/104-0316134-7265524?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1178691982&sr=1-2
OUCH!!! :o
-
The Bible will NEVER make sense to one who tries to understand it without the presensce of a personal relationship with God.
-
Yo, Beach Bum and Colossus_500, props to you both! 8)
-
Tsk tsk. An "F" for performance and "D" for effort. Clearly regressing.
yet still no cogent answer on why the condemnation of homosexuality is valid yet the condemnation (and required stoning death) of an unchaste woman is not.
The same goes for they myriad of other transgressions.
How about an easier one: Exodus 31:15
Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
That seems pretty clear.
Can you run this through the Beach Bum common sense algorithm and tell me if this still applies
-
The Bible will NEVER make sense to one who tries to understand it without the presensce of a personal relationship with God.
I see your point.
It might make more sense if I had a personal relationship with a figment of my imagination.
That must be what Bum is talking about when he says these things are just common sense.
-
Tsk tsk. An "F" for performance and "D" for effort. Clearly regressing.
Nice job cutting and pasting my quote. Heres' the part you left out:
-----------------------------
your entire premise is based on your own infallable common sense
By your own admission your wife and other christian friend don't understand your point of view either
One would think that people who also share your christian faith would be able to understand your beliefs if only you could present a cogent argument.
Why are you unable to support your position without drawing on the circular reasoning of "it's just common sense"?
------------------------------
-
Yo, Beach Bum and Colossus_500, props to you both! 8)
Thanks, Loco! :)
-
The Bible will NEVER make sense to one who tries to understand it without the presensce of a personal relationship with God.
I completely agree. This is particularly true if the person is reading the Bible simply to try and find contradictions, problems, etc.
-
Yo, Beach Bum and Colossus_500, props to you both! 8)
Muchas gracias. :)
-
It might make more sense if I had a personal relationship with a figment of my imagination.
Hence, the reason you are at the point of the life in which you live. :-\
-
I completely agree. This is particularly true if the person is reading the Bible simply to try and find contradictions, problems, etc.
Exactly, bro. And it's funny to see so many conversions in the process of proving that God doesn't exist. We end up with great authors like Lee Stroebel! :)
-
Nice job cutting and pasting my quote. Heres' the part you left out:
-----------------------------
your entire premise is based on your own infallable common sense
By your own admission your wife and other christian friend don't understand your point of view either
One would think that people who also share your christian faith would be able to understand your beliefs if only you could present a cogent argument.
Why are you unable to support your position without drawing on the circular reasoning of "it's just common sense"?
------------------------------
Quote from: Straw Man on Today at 07:24:22 AM
I'll make it less personal
. . .
Why are you too stupid to understand this?
[chuckle] You have shown an inability to be consistent in the same thread and as the preceding excerpts show, you are unable to be consistent in the same post.
-
Exactly, bro. And it's funny to see so many conversions in the process of proving that God doesn't exist. We end up with great authors like Lee Stroebel! :)
lol. I think Straw Man is Lee Stroebel in the making. :) http://www.outreachspeakers.com/speakers/LeeStroebel.htm
-
Not really. If the act isn't mentioned at all by the writer, it's kind of hard to draw conclusions on how the act was judged.
The writer says nothing about Lot's offer. In fact, Lot doesn't fare well at all in that story and his life in general. He started off by choosing to live in Sodom, because he thought that land was prime real estate. He then lost his home. He didn't do a standup job raising his daughters. He was married to a materialistic wife, who died. His daughters wound up essentially raping him. Pretty dark ending for Lot. :-\
The act is Mentioned, however.
And if his daughters were offered up to a horny mob, I'm not surprised of the mental damaged that might have led to them raping their Dad.
-
lol. I think Straw Man is Lee Stroebel in the making. :) http://www.outreachspeakers.com/speakers/LeeStroebel.htm
So is OzmO. ;D
-
So is OzmO. ;D
I'm not a former Atheist. ::) ;)
-
I'm not a former Atheist. ::) ;)
I know, but you are set on proving the Bible is not 100% the word of God, that Jesus is not the Son of God, and that Jesus is not the only way to salvation from your sins.
In trying to prove Christianity wrong, you are forced to read our posts, do research, learn more about the Bible, history and archeology, etc. You are on your way, OzmO. ;D
-
I know, but you are set on proving the Bible is not 100% the word of God, that Jesus is not the Son of God, and that Jesus is not the only way to salvation from your sins.
In trying to prove Christianity wrong, you are forced to read our posts, do research, learn more about the Bible, history and archeology, etc. You are on your way, OzmO. ;D
Actually, thought all this, I believe the Bible is even less the "Word of God" than when i started.
Not becuase of your actions, which are respectable, honorable and noteworthy as a person and a man of God, but because of the research involved in our debates.
Please don't forget, i have a very strong belief in God. And what ever the real truth is, i believe.
-
Actually, thought all this, I believe the Bible is even less the "Word of God" than when i started.
It's just a phase. Keep digging. Just try this, put a fraction of your same efforts in finding good things in the same book of Exodus, Deuteronomy, Leviticus, and Numbers. You'll be amazed at the good things that are found in the Bible that are not found in other texts, financial advice, health tips, even how to deal with toxic mold in your home. I already know what you view as "evil" and "negative" in the Bible, but there is a lot more to it than that.
Please don't forget, i have a very strong belief in God. And what ever the real truth is, i believe.
I know you do, and I never forget. ;D
But I am a Christian and a believer in the Bible, and I must answer your questions and give you a reason for
my faith if you ask me.
-
It's just a phase. Keep digging. Just try this, put a fraction of your same efforts in finding good things in the same book of Exodus, Deuteronomy, Leviticus, and Numbers. You'll be amazed at the good things that are found in the Bible that are not found in other texts, financial advice, health tips, even how to deal with toxic mold in your home. I already know what you view as "evil" and "negative" in the Bible, but there is a lot more to it than that.
I realize that.
Please don't take my focus on the questionable parts of the Bible as an indication that i think there isn't a whole lot of good in it.
-
Pastor Ozmo?
:D
-
The Bible will NEVER make sense to one who tries to understand it without the presensce of a personal relationship with God.
I completely agree. This is particularly true if the person is reading the Bible simply to try and find contradictions, problems, etc.
Well, in my case it stemmed from too much enthusiasm in Christianity that led to more and more research that led to questioning contradictions.
The bible is a book of faith and one's paradigm often sets the tone of interpretation. But i wold think that the W.O.G. should be visible beyond that as it is in many instances in the Bible, just not all the words.
-
Pastor Ozmo?
:D
:D
-
lol. I think Straw Man is Lee Stroebel in the making. :) http://www.outreachspeakers.com/speakers/LeeStroebel.htm
I don't know, Beach. I'm thinking we're dealing with a modern-day Pharoah with Straw Man. His heart is extremely hardened. :-\
So is OzmO. ;D
I was thinking the same thing, Loco! ;D OzmO, I know you're a believer, but if you ever get to the point of understanding God's word to be infallable, whew!!! Look out! I pity the fool who wants to take up debate with you. ;) Make sure you mention your Getbig buddies when you write your first book!
-
I don't know, Beach. I'm thinking we're dealing with a modern-day Pharoah with Straw Man. His heart is extremely hardened. :-\
I was thinking the same thing, Loco! ;D OzmO, I know you're a believer, but if you ever get to the point of understanding God's word to be infallable, whew!!! Look out! I pity the fool who wants to take up debate with you. ;) Make sure you mention your Getbig buddies when you write your first book!
;D ;D Thanks C-500
-
[chuckle] You have shown an inability to be consistent in the same thread and as the preceding excerpts show, you are unable to be consistent in the same post.
Let's try this one more time:
I'll make it less personal
your point of view is idiotic
your entire premise is based on your own infallable common sense
By your own admission your wife and other christian friend don't understand your point of view either
One would think that people who also share your christian faith would be able to understand your beliefs if only you could present a cogent argument.
Why are you unable to support your position without drawing on the circular reasoning of "it's just common sense"?
Why are you too stupid to understand this?
--------------------------------
Why do you respond to my quote by gutting the middle and leaving the beginning an end.
I guess I shouldn't be surprised since you have the ability to read the bible and parse out just the points that you like even within the same story.
Face it - If you take the bible to be true then you need to bite the bullet and take it all to be true
This includes offering your child to be raped by a mob, accepting the fact that your daughter must be stoned in not a virgin on her wedding night and that you should be put to death if you work on the Sabbath, just to name a few.
You've yet to offer any objective process for eliminating these so they must all still be valid
Of course you are entitled to your OPINION as is anyone else who cares to read the book and make interpretation and you already acknowledged that your "beliefs" are actually just your opinion.
lol. Dude you just don't get it. I don't need to convince you that I'm comfortable with my opinion.
If you're going to present your belief as fact then you face a higher order of evidence then just your common sense.
If you don't believe this then change the subject to something else, say a doctor who is treating your child, and ask yourself if the same metric would still apply
There's nothing wrong with having faith but faith is belief in the absence of evidence or in contary to evidence
If you could prove your beliefs then Chrisitianity would be a science and not a religion
-
I don't know, Beach. I'm thinking we're dealing with a modern-day Pharoah with Straw Man. His heart is extremely hardened. :-\
I was thinking the same thing, Loco! ;D OzmO, I know you're a believer, but if you ever get to the point of understanding God's word to be infallable, whew!!! Look out! I pity the fool who wants to take up debate with you. ;) Make sure you mention your Getbig buddies when you write your first book!
You never know Colossus. One of my former co-workers was an avowed, angry, bitter atheist. She eventually approached me about five years into our working relationship and expressed an interest in coming to church. She only attended once, but she's no longer an atheist. I shared a book with her (Prayer of Jabez -- awesome book). She now has a personal relationship with God. It was a beautiful thing to see.
-
Let's try this one more time:
I'll make it less personal
your point of view is idiotic
your entire premise is based on your own infallable common sense
By your own admission your wife and other christian friend don't understand your point of view either
One would think that people who also share your christian faith would be able to understand your beliefs if only you could present a cogent argument.
Why are you unable to support your position without drawing on the circular reasoning of "it's just common sense"?
Why are you too stupid to understand this?
--------------------------------
Why do you respond to my quote by gutting the middle and leaving the beginning an end.
I guess I shouldn't be surprised since you have the ability to read the bible and parse out just the points that you like even within the same story.
Face it - If you take the bible to be true then you need to bite the bullet and take it all to be true
This includes offering your child to be raped by a mob, accepting the fact that your daughter must be stoned in not a virgin on her wedding night and that you should be put to death if you work on the Sabbath, just to name a few.
You've yet to offer any objective process for eliminating these so they must all still be valid
Of course you are entitled to your OPINION as is anyone else who cares to read the book and make interpretation and you already acknowledged that your "beliefs" are actually just your opinion.
If you're going to present your belief as fact then you face a higher order of evidence then just your common sense.
If you don't believe this then change the subject to something else, say a doctor who is treating your child, and ask yourself if the same metric would still apply
There's nothing wrong with having faith but faith is belief in the absence of evidence or in contary to evidence
If you could prove your beliefs then Chrisitianity would be a science and not a religion
There is a point in there somewhere . . . maybe . . . but it escapes me. :)
-
It's the bottom line cuz some douche in 3rd century said so!!11
-
Actually, thought all this, I believe the Bible is even less the "Word of God" than when i started.
Not because of your actions, which are respectable, honorable and noteworthy as a person and a man of God, but because of the research involved in our debates.
Thanks, OzmO, but that's a shame because it should be the other way around. As a human being, I have failed at times and will always fail at times as an example of what a Christian should be. But the Word of God never fails. Jesus Christ will never fail us.
-
Thanks, OzmO, but that's a shame because it should be the other way around. As a human being, I have failed at times and will always fail at times as an example of what a Christian should be. But the Word of God never fails. Jesus Christ will never fail us.
I absolutely 100% agree that the Word of God never fails. But not with the Bible being the "100% word of God." Or the premise of accepting Jesus Christ as the only way to salvation or some virtually impossible life to live or even sacrificing a Lamb once a year.
When the words "only" enter into the picture it speaks more of "church doctrine" to keep and retain followers than of God's real message.
-
There is a point in there somewhere . . . maybe . . . but it escapes me. :)
It wouldn't be the first time
I honestly think you're goofing - and I'm pretty sure you fully understand my point.