Getbig Bodybuilding, Figure and Fitness Forums
Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: Dos Equis on May 24, 2007, 07:50:15 PM
-
Amazing how we are worked up over "waterboarding" and guys sleeping in a cell with AC and no blanket, while the enemy has a manual showing "how to drill hands, sever limbs, drag victims behind cars, remove eyes, put a blowtorch or iron to someone’s skin, suspend a person from a ceiling and electrocute them, break limbs and restrict breath and put someone’s head in a vice."
‘How-to’ Manual Found in Al Qaeda Safe House Shows Disturbing Torture Methods
Thursday, May 24, 2007
WASHINGTON — Al Qaeda terrorists use blow torches, electric drills and meat cleavers to torture and force information out of their victims, according to a "how-to" book discovered in a terrorist safe house in Iraq.
The Defense Department recently released disturbing images and cartoons showing how to torture a captive found by American forces during a raid on a Al Qaeda safe house a few weeks ago. They also found photos of tortured Iraqi victims.
Click here to view the Al Qaeda 'torture handbook.'
The book guides followers of Al Qaeda how to interrogate and torture captives.
The drawings and cartoons depict ways to use electric drills and irons, meat cleavers and other devices to force victims to talk or harm them.
Some of the drawings show how to drill hands, sever limbs, drag victims behind cars, remove eyes, put a blowtorch or iron to someone’s skin, suspend a person from a ceiling and electrocute them, break limbs and restrict breath and put someone’s head in a vice.
Items found at the safe house include electric drills, hammers, blow torches, meat cleavers, pliers and wire cutters, chains, screw drivers, whips and handcuffs.
Earlier this week U.S. troops found the information near Baghdad, along with five Iraqis being held.
Gen. Peter Pace, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, told reporters Thursday that Al Qaeda poses a dangerous threat to the United States for years to come.
"Clearly, whatever military advice we give, both in Iraq and regionally, must take into account that this group — of Al Qaeda — has targeted free nations, to include the United States, and how our long-term plan and our long-term recommendations must deal with that very real threat to the United States," Pace said at a Pentagon briefing.
Defense Secretary Robert Gates said the United States continues to direct most efforts to defeating Al Qaeda, but he predicted insurgents in Iraq will ramp up attacks this summer
"I think the worry that we have is clearly what we have seen over the past year: that whatever progress is made — and particularly in the last few months — often is overshadowed when Al Qaeda will launch a major attack that kills a lot of innocent civilian Iraqis," Gates said.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,275341,00.html
-
The only counterargument that is going to be brought up and be valid is that terrorists are not and do not claim to represent nation-states. That being said, there is no reason why there is such an uproar about this (and people blame Bush and Co.) when this has been a common practice for decades, in many nations.
http://www.foxnews.com/photoessay/0,4644,1783,00.html#1_0
Skin burning and cutting (seen below) has nothing on water torture and AC.
-
You beat me too it......
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,275341,00.html
Someone will come on here and say it's BS because it was on FOX!
-
It's believable and sickening.
Our wonderful country shouldn't ever stoop so low.
-
It's believable and sickening.
Our wonderful country shouldn't ever stoop so low.
We haven't. Waterboard<Skin blow torching
-
We haven't. Waterboard<Skin blow torching
Thats your opinion.
The thing is... I'm not against the bastards being tortured. I'm fine with an isolated case where some soldiers nearly beat a suspected terrorist to death, or whatever. It only when its officially carried out in the name of this country that it bothers me.
-
Items found at the safe house include ... whips and handcuffs.
So what's the problem?
:D
-
They learned all that stuff from watching Hollywood movies. We *want* them importing Americanism, so the presence of this book is actually a GOOD thing.
-
I wonder if we can ever be privy to the CIA methods of extracting information. I'm sure they much more sophisticated........... ...........lol
Ahh yes, we "the good guys" would never do anything like in that manual...actually we'd just get someone else to do it for us. :)
Don't get me wrong.......
-
I wonder if we can ever be privy to the CIA methods of extracting information. I'm sure they much more sophisticated........... ...........lol
Ahh yes, we "the good guys" would never do anything like in that manual...actually we'd just get someone else to do it for us. :)
Don't get me wrong.......
Unfreakingbelievable.... ....I can't believe you said that!
-
Unfreakingbelievable........I can't believe you said that!
Do the Egyptians torture people for us? ???
-
The only counterargument that is going to be brought up and be valid is that terrorists are not and do not claim to represent nation-states. That being said, there is no reason why there is such an uproar about this (and people blame Bush and Co.) when this has been a common practice for decades, in many nations.
http://www.foxnews.com/photoessay/0,4644,1783,00.html#1_0
Skin burning and cutting (seen below) has nothing on water torture and AC.
You realize of course that the reason that no one except Bush supporters or War mongers are going to care about this is because this thread is attempting to compare the U.S. with Al Qaeda something the vast vast majority of Bush detractors would never do.
Only the most extreme idiots would compare the torture techniques of the U.S. with those of Al Qaeda and actually mean it.
Many of us don't like the U.S. using torture but that doesn't mean we compare them with Al Qaeda, to even mention the idea is pure rhetoric and propaganda.
-
Unfreakingbelievable........I can't believe you said that!
Just being real dude. Not brainwashed into thinking anyone of us is above doing what needs to be done.
Get over it.
Obviously you got me wrong.
Not really surprised by it.
-
The only counterargument that is going to be brought up and be valid is that terrorists are not and do not claim to represent nation-states. That being said, there is no reason why there is such an uproar about this (and people blame Bush and Co.) when this has been a common practice for decades, in many nations.
http://www.foxnews.com/photoessay/0,4644,1783,00.html#1_0
Skin burning and cutting (seen below) has nothing on water torture and AC.
Appalling. >:( Those guys are animals. I bet CNN didn't put this on their front page because it didn't involve any wrongdoing by Americans.
-
Appalling. >:( Those guys are animals. I bet CNN didn't put this on their front page because it didn't involve any wrongdoing by Americans.
If they didn't put it on the front page, it was probably because there is no case, which means the story becomes a bit empty.
But I agree, these methods are horrible.
And Al-Qaida is terrible, through and through.
There is no justification for that organisation, whatsoever.
-Hedge
-
If they didn't put it on the front page, it was probably because there is no case, which means the story becomes a bit empty.
You're giving them too much credit. :)
-
The thing is... I'm not against the bastards being tortured. I'm fine with an isolated case where some soldiers nearly beat a suspected terrorist to death, or whatever.
Well as long as the person is suspected of being a terrorist, of course its justifiable to nearly kill him. ::)
Dumbass.
-
If the administration lied about Pat Tillman's death (among many lies)........who's to say this information is correct?
-
Amazing how we are worked up over "waterboarding" and guys sleeping in a cell with AC and no blanket, while the enemy has a manual showing "how to drill hands, sever limbs, drag victims behind cars, remove eyes, put a blowtorch or iron to someone’s skin, suspend a person from a ceiling and electrocute them, break limbs and restrict breath and put someone’s head in a vice."
...
Wow. The US is not as bad a torturer as Al Qaeda.
Strike up the band! We can hang our hats on that with pride!.
Come on Beach Bum. We fight those torturers. We don't become shady reflections of them.
-
Wow. The US is not as bad a torturer as Al Qaeda.
Strike up the band! We can hang our hats on that with pride!.
Come on Beach Bum. We fight those torturers. We don't become shady reflections of them.
We're nowhere near a reflection of those animals. It is good to keep things in perspective. While some accuse the U.S. of torture because detainees don't get treated like Holiday Inn residents, the enemy has a policy of dismembering innocent civilians. We're keeping the lights on all night for detainees, they are gouging people's eyes out. We turn up the AC, they burn skin with torches.
No, we're not anywhere near a reflection of those terrorists.
-
We're nowhere near a reflection of those animals. It is good to keep things in perspective. While some accuse the U.S. of torture because detainees don't get treated like Holiday Inn residents, the enemy has a policy of dismembering innocent civilians. We're keeping the lights on all night for detainees, they are gouging people's eyes out. We turn up the AC, they burn skin with torches.
No, we're not anywhere near a reflection of those terrorists.
27 people have been beaten to death during our interrogations. Some have had batteries hooked up to their nuts to help their recall.
These people have not been tried. They are suspects. Not that if they were tried that makes torture a-ok.
As for the "We're nowhere near a reflection of those animals." defense I would disagree. We practice rendition. We farm out the torture work. Rendition to Egypt means being beaten with clubs and being hung from your toes. Rendition to saudi arabia means beheadings, amputations, floggings and stonings because they do those sorts of things there.
-
27 people have been beaten to death during our interrogations. Some have had batteries hooked up to their nuts to help their recall.
These people have not been tried. They are suspects. Not that if they were tried that makes torture a-ok.
As for the "We're nowhere near a reflection of those animals." defense I would disagree. We practice rendition. We farm out the torture work. Rendition to Egypt means being beaten with clubs and being hung from your toes. Rendition to saudi arabia means beheadings, amputations, floggings and stonings because they do those sorts of things there.
Are you saying the U.S. has tortured 27 people to death? Proof?
Based on what you call "rendition," you are comparing the U.S. to terrorists? That's wild Decker. Let me make sure I understand what you're saying. Are you talking about people being deported back to their own countries?
-
:D
(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e196/Intenseone/club_gitmo1.jpg)
-
It's believable and sickening.
Our wonderful country shouldn't ever stoop so low.
Just read your history, you fuc*king fool. Americans have done all that and more starting with indians, slaves, in korea, in vietnam, and you should not forget that your own dear CIA have teach those rag heads to use those methods. They have used billions to train afghans and iraqi "freedom fighters" to use terrorist tactics, including torture. Your wonderful country isn't any better, it is just another military dictatorship, wrapped on nice but empty words about freedom, love and good will. Your wonderful country has send your youngsters to fight a war which is all about money, which goes to pockets of the few, already rich fuc*kers who doesn't give a shit for those who thinks that they may die "for their country". USA has been great example of "how to fight against cruelty with greater cruelty" in just about every war which it has been involved, so it is useless to try to hide it.
-
Just read your history, you fuc*king fool. Americans have done all that and more starting with indians, slaves, in korea, in vietnam, and you should not forget that your own dear CIA have teach those rag heads to use those methods. They have used billions to train afghans and iraqi "freedom fighters" to use terrorist tactics, including torture. Your wonderful country isn't any better, it is just another military dictatorship, wrapped on nice but empty words about freedom, love and good will. Your wonderful country has send your youngsters to fight a war which is all about money, which goes to pockets of the few, already rich fuc*kers who doesn't give a shit for those who thinks that they may die "for their country". USA has been great example of "how to fight against cruelty with greater cruelty" in just about every war which it has been involved, so it is useless to try to hide it.
I know the History. Sure we have committed dirty deeds, that kind of thing (shouldn't) will happen in the process of building a great nation. In this world the smartest animals prospers.
Maybe you would be happier if we had let the Nazis overrun Europe? ???
-
The US have no clean slate when it comes to torturing.
There's no need to even further the notion that al Qai'da is evil, there's no uber evil.
The US are in Iraq under the guise of 'liberation force', better make sure you play a clean game then, bad PR because of violations against humanity is not what you want. Remember, the US invaded Iraq without a UN mandate, making the terrorist analogy not as farfetched as one might think, this is not 'the good war'.
-
"Very Bad Things"
It's part of war like it or not, no matter what side you are on.
(of course it's more so on some sides, but no side is free from transgressions of decency.)
-
I know the History. Sure we have committed dirty deeds, that kind of thing (shouldn't) will happen in the process of building a great nation. In this world the smartest animals prospers.
Maybe you would be happier if we had let the Nazis overrun Europe? ???
Well, fact is that russians did have the greatest part of work to beat nazis, while you guys were overrun by japanese, but it is nice that you know your history so well...
-
Well, fact is that russians did have the greatest part of work to beat nazis, while you guys were overrun by japanese, but it is nice that you know your history so well...
Who was overrun by the Japanese? Attacking the unprepared makes any army look brilliant. Look at Barbarrosa, when the Germans attacked Russia.
-
Wow. The US is not as bad a torturer as Al Qaeda.
Strike up the band! We can hang our hats on that with pride!.
Come on Beach Bum. We fight those torturers. We don't become shady reflections of them.
I agree... I thought we knew that Al Quaeda tortured people... This is not really "news".
I don't understand the idea of comparing Al Quaeda to the US government... That's just insane.
It's like comparing Bush to Hitler... No one is as bad as Hitler... NO ONE.
The fact we're having this discussion and we're even remotely thinking about the US in relationship to the evil deeds that Al Quaeda has done, is most surely the saddest thing about this.
I can't believe it's even a talking point...
-
Well, fact is that russians did have the greatest part of work to beat nazis, while you guys were overrun by japanese, but it is nice that you know your history so well...
I'm confused...
How is a sneak attack on a remote location being "overrun".
Does anyone not remember how the US military stormed through the pacific afterwards?
-
I'm confused...
How is a sneak attack on a remote location being "overrun".
Does anyone not remember how the US military stormed through the pacific afterwards?
Well in all fairness.....
They did a quite a number in the Philippines on a under manned, under trained, and under equipped US Army and filpino militia. That attack started the day after Pearl. In fact they attacked all sorts of installations around the pacific the day after pearl.
But when the "sleeping Giant" woke up that Yamato talked about it was all but over.
-
Well, fact is that russians did have the greatest part of work to beat nazis,
Thats beside the point.
Just curious, what do you believe the outcome would have been if the United States never entered World War II?
-
Thats beside the point.
Just curious, what do you believe the outcome would have been if the United States never entered World War II?
Or how about if we didn't give England the Lend Lease program? Or supplied Russia with trucks and tanks?
-
Just read your history, you fuc*king fool. Americans have done all that and more starting with indians, slaves, in korea, in vietnam, and you should not forget that your own dear CIA have teach those rag heads to use those methods. They have used billions to train afghans and iraqi "freedom fighters" to use terrorist tactics, including torture. Your wonderful country isn't any better, it is just another military dictatorship, wrapped on nice but empty words about freedom, love and good will. Your wonderful country has send your youngsters to fight a war which is all about money, which goes to pockets of the few, already rich fuc*kers who doesn't give a shit for those who thinks that they may die "for their country". USA has been great example of "how to fight against cruelty with greater cruelty" in just about every war which it has been involved, so it is useless to try to hide it.
It's called staying on top. 8)
-
Are you saying the U.S. has tortured 27 people to death? Proof?
Based on what you call "rendition," you are comparing the U.S. to terrorists? That's wild Decker. Let me make sure I understand what you're saying. Are you talking about people being deported back to their own countries?
Sorry, it was 29 deaths and not 27. http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/68561.htm
"The vast majority of the deaths in Afghanistan and Iraq were caused by factors such as natural causes, injuries sustained on the battlefield, or detainee-on-detainee violence. In only 29 cases was abuse or other violations of law or policy suspected. In these cases, these alleged violations were properly investigated, and appropriate action was taken..."
As for rendition, Dana Priest received the 2006 Pulitzer Prize for breaking the story of the US's use of rendition.
http://www.danapriestfansite.com/priest07.html
"To comply with anti-torture laws that bar sending people to countries where they are likely to be tortured, the CIA's office of general counsel requires a verbal assurance from each nation that detainees will be treated humanely, according to several recently retired CIA officials familiar with such transfers, known as renditions."
See? We get the torturing country's assurance that it won't torture the people we send them.
I feel better now.
Except for this:
Another U.S. government official who visited several foreign prisons where suspects were rendered by the CIA after the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, said: "It's beyond that. It's widely understood that interrogation practices that would be illegal in the U.S. are being used."
-
Sorry, it was 29 deaths and not 27. http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/68561.htm
"The vast majority of the deaths in Afghanistan and Iraq were caused by factors such as natural causes, injuries sustained on the battlefield, or detainee-on-detainee violence. In only 29 cases was abuse or other violations of law or policy suspected. In these cases, these alleged violations were properly investigated, and appropriate action was taken..."
As for rendition, Dana Priest received the 2006 Pulitzer Prize for breaking the story of the US's use of rendition.
http://www.danapriestfansite.com/priest07.html
"To comply with anti-torture laws that bar sending people to countries where they are likely to be tortured, the CIA's office of general counsel requires a verbal assurance from each nation that detainees will be treated humanely, according to several recently retired CIA officials familiar with such transfers, known as renditions."
See? We get the torturing country's assurance that it won't torture the people we send them.
I feel better now.
Except for this:
Another U.S. government official who visited several foreign prisons where suspects were rendered by the CIA after the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, said: "It's beyond that. It's widely understood that interrogation practices that would be illegal in the U.S. are being used."
And how do you conclude that we tortured and murdered 29 people from this comment: "In only 29 cases was abuse or other violations of law or policy suspected. In these cases, these alleged violations were properly investigated, and appropriate action was taken..."
So we're deporting suspected terrorists/criminals back to their own countries? I'm not losing any sleep over this.
-
Thats beside the point.
Just curious, what do you believe the outcome would have been if the United States never entered World War II?
No, that is just the point. You try to take a honor from russians who have earned it by doing major work to beat the nazis. I didn't say anything about your effort in WWII, just made a little correction to your lies..khm..errors.
-
Just curious, what do you believe the outcome would have been if the United States never entered World War II?
Or how about if we didn't give England the Lend Lease program? Or supplied Russia with trucks and tanks?
-
No, that is just the point. You try to take a honor from russians who have earned it by doing major work to beat the nazis. I didn't say anything about your effort in WWII, just made a little correction to your lies..khm..errors.
So? Are you saying the vast resources the US brought with it as it entered WWII hadn't no impact? All the rubber, steel, money, guns, ammo, tanks, airplanes had no impact? Who gives a shit if the Russians did most of the work in the eastern front? D-day wouldn't have happened without America.
-
And how do you conclude that we tortured and murdered 29 people from this comment: "In only 29 cases was abuse or other violations of law or policy suspected. In these cases, these alleged violations were properly investigated, and appropriate action was taken..."
So we're deporting suspected terrorists/criminals back to their own countries? I'm not losing any sleep over this.
You're right Beach Bum.
Without the facts, other than 29 dead bodies, the interrogation methods were just classified as "abuses."
I'm still looking for that document where Bush and company confess the whole enchilada but I'm having a tough time finding it.
Suspects held by the US and sent to torture using countries with the promise that no torture will happen is just fine with you b/c they are going home?
Mamdouh Habib, an Australian citizen, has alleged he was tortured in Egypt for six months after U.S. officials sent him there.
Is Austrailia Egypt? No.
Or should we wait for the Bush Administration to 'Self-police' itself much in the way we have voluntary compliance with pollution regulations for Big Business?
-
Unfreakingbelievable........I can't believe you said that!
you HONESTLY believe waterboarding is the ONLY method we use?
damn no wonder its been soo many yrs since 911 and we STILL dont know where osama is..
maybe we need to learn from al-queda..
wait..wasn't osama CIA trained to fight the ruskies?
oops..
-
you HONESTLY believe waterboarding is the ONLY method we use?
damn no wonder its been soo many yrs since 911 and we STILL dont know where osama is..
maybe we need to learn from al-queda..
wait..wasn't osama CIA trained to fight the ruskies?
oops..
He honestly doesn't believe that shit. He's too much of a fucking puppet.. he just follow and doesn't ask questions.
if clinton were in the white house and the CIA was guilty of torture, then Mr. I/coach would be all over him.
-
You're right Beach Bum.
Without the facts, other than 29 dead bodies, the interrogation methods were just classified as "abuses."
I'm still looking for that document where Bush and company confess the whole enchilada but I'm having a tough time finding it.
Suspects held by the US and sent to torture using countries with the promise that no torture will happen is just fine with you b/c they are going home?
Mamdouh Habib, an Australian citizen, has alleged he was tortured in Egypt for six months after U.S. officials sent him there.
Is Austrailia Egypt? No.
Or should we wait for the Bush Administration to 'Self-police' itself much in the way we have voluntary compliance with pollution regulations for Big Business?
Decker your quote says "In only 29 cases was abuse or other violations of law or policy suspected. In these cases, these alleged violations were properly investigated, and appropriate action was taken..." This doesn't tell me anything about torture. It certainly doesn't support your original contention that the U.S. tortured 29 people to death.
No, I don't have a problem with the United States deported suspected terrorists/criminals to their home countries. I care much more about American citizens. Some of those countries use methods we would consider cruel and unusual, like amputating limbs. That's not our problem.
-
Decker your quote says "In only 29 cases was abuse or other violations of law or policy suspected. In these cases, these alleged violations were properly investigated, and appropriate action was taken..." This doesn't tell me anything about torture. It certainly doesn't support your original contention that the U.S. tortured 29 people to death.
No, I don't have a problem with the United States deported suspected terrorists/criminals to their home countries. I care much more about American citizens. Some of those countries use methods we would consider cruel and unusual, like amputating limbs. That's not our problem.
Do you think they were questioned to death? Bored to death?
Speaking of torture, you're torturing the concept of "alleged violations" and how that squares with the brute fact of 29 deaths during interrogation.
As for your personal opinion that it's not your concern that the US sends untried suspects to countries that use torture...that is unfortunate.
Your opinion is not in line with the traditions and ideals inherent in our US Constitution and way of life.
-
:D
(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e196/Intenseone/club_gitmo1.jpg)
If your knowledge is any indicator of what the average Joe Blow knows about the Guantanamo prison, it seems like most Americans are being fed lies and propaganda. :'(
Club Gitmo?
That's some seriously fcuked up shit.
-Hedge
-
Do you think they were questioned to death? Bored to death?
Speaking of torture, you're torturing the concept of "alleged violations" and how that squares with the brute fact of 29 deaths during interrogation.
As for your personal opinion that it's not your concern that the US sends untried suspects to countries that use torture...that is unfortunate.
Your opinion is not in line with the traditions and ideals inherent in our US Constitution and way of life.
The quote you provided doesn't indicate whether 1 or 29 people were tortured, how those individuals died, and what action was taken. Pure supposition on your part.
You're really misstating my opinion. I have no trouble with the U.S. sending foreign suspected terrorists/criminals back to their own countries to face that country's criminal justice system. I have no problem with that opinion. I sleep well. :)
-
The quote you provided doesn't indicate whether 1 or 29 people were tortured, how those individuals died, and what action was taken. Pure supposition on your part.
You're really misstating my opinion. I have no trouble with the U.S. sending foreign suspected terrorists/criminals back to their own countries to face that country's criminal justice system. I have no problem with that opinion. I sleep well. :)
The facts we have to go on are this http://www.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrc/docs/ngos/wohr.pdf
Karate, cables, bats and electrical shocks were used on Afghan detainees.
That is not supposition.
On the other hand, we could assume death by natural causes during interrogation but that would fly in the face of the State Department's finding that abuses occurred.
As for sending ALLEGED terrorists to their own countries, I showed you a case of an Australian being sent to Egypt. I will find more but I have to go now.
We have a good military but not a perfect military. Mistakes are made and innocent people suffer torture.
-
The facts we have to go on are this http://www.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrc/docs/ngos/wohr.pdf
Karate, cables, bats and electrical shocks were used on Afghan detainees.
That is not supposition.
On the other hand, we could assume death by natural causes during interrogation but that would fly in the face of the State Department's finding that abuses occurred.
As for sending ALLEGED terrorists to their own countries, I showed you a case of an Australian being sent to Egypt. I will find more but I have to go now.
We have a good military but not a perfect military. Mistakes are made and innocent people suffer torture.
I read parts of the link. I saw no references at all. Hard to accept what the report says at face value. Doesn't look very reliable.
I don't support the U.S. sending suspected terrorists to a country other than the suspect's home country solely for the purpose of having some other country torture the person. I doubt we're doing this.
-
I missed this one too..Europeans should not point any fingers at the US in anyway shape or form......Africa from about 1815-1971 or so. You guys are up to ur asses in blood. U guys wrote the book on crushing indiginous peoples.
-
I missed this one too..Europeans should not point any fingers at the US in anyway shape or form......Africa from about 1815-1971 or so. You guys are up to ur asses in blood. U guys wrote the book on crushing indiginous peoples.
Why shouldn't Europeans point fingers?
Just like Americans can point fingers at their own government?
Even though Sweden were never involved in the recent colonial crimes, we have been a few hundred years ago.
Also, there are other aspects not to be so proud of, eg how Sweden didn't stood up against Nazi Germany, and even some Swedish pseudo-scientists believing that Swedes were a "pure" breed of a man, playing into the Nazi racial hogwash.
Still, every individual, all over the world, is entitled to point out the wrongs of our political leaders. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that.
On the contrary, it's something very right.
Problem occurs when small-minded individuals claims a whole country is to blame for the flaws of persons coming from that country.
I would be a total idiot if I stated that Americans were incompetent, only because I believe George Bush to be incompetent.
I really like USA. I think George W Bush has proved himself to be incompetent however.
As far as Guantanamo: Yes. I think it's been proven that the conditions are terrible, and I also think it's very telling that these prisoners have yet to be charged with anything.
I don't dislike USA because of it. I question the Bush Administration, those who are responsible for it.
My ethics and values leads me to question the action on Guantanamo Bay.
It's not because I am "European".
FWIW, I always think of USA and Europe as playing on the same team.
-Hedge
-
"Problem occurs when small-minded individuals claims a whole country is to blame for the flaws of persons coming from that country."
The "persons" are elected representatives acting on behalf and for the benefit of a "whole country". Care to rethink your position?
Regarding the topic of this thread, torture manuals you say?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_of_the_Americas
America may not publicly partake in extreme torture, but she has no problems sub contracting others to torture for her benefit :)
-
"Problem occurs when small-minded individuals claims a whole country is to blame for the flaws of persons coming from that country."
The "persons" are elected representatives acting on behalf and for the benefit of a "whole country". Care to rethink your position?
Regarding the topic of this thread, torture manuals you say?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_of_the_Americas
America may not publicly partake in extreme torture, but she has no problems sub contracting others to torture for her benefit :)
I am critical of the elected representative.
Not of USA as a whole.
And of course believe it is wrong to sub contracting torture to Egypt and other countries.
-Hedge
-
Hedge....what ur saying is correct..however, there are many Europeans with short memories that come on the board and lecture us, the US, on how to behave. Bush will be gone ion a few years and the next bunch, whether they be Dems or Repubs will have to work to fix his many misteps. As far as the School of the America's...so what. They kept communism at bay in Latin America. The bottom line is that nobody..nobody plays nice. The government of the US is not on a crusade to liberate the world,(yeah i know it seems like it) It exists to make sure its people are safe and we remain economically viable. We do this, usually by breaking a few egss, but overall serving as a force for good. I make no apologies for US foreign policy as a whole..Bush as screwed up Iraq and we need to leave. The war on terror and preemption is not a bad idea, but u need to execute the stategy better.