Author Topic: ‘How-to’ Manual Found in Al Qaeda Safe House Shows Disturbing Torture Methods  (Read 9532 times)

Samourai Pizzacat

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 2019
  • Meeoow!!
The US have no clean slate when it comes to torturing.

There's no need to even further the notion that al Qai'da is evil, there's no uber evil.
The US are in Iraq under the guise of 'liberation force', better make sure you play a clean game then, bad PR because of violations against humanity is not what you want. Remember, the US invaded Iraq without a UN mandate, making the terrorist analogy not as farfetched as one might think, this is not 'the good war'.

OzmO

  • Moderator
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 22731
  • Drink enough Kool-aid and you'll think its healthy
"Very Bad Things"


It's part of war like it or not, no matter what side you are on.

(of course it's more so on some sides, but no side is free from transgressions of decency.)

GreatFinn

  • Getbig III
  • ***
  • Posts: 567
  • Havuja, perkele!?!
I know the History.  Sure we have committed dirty deeds, that kind of thing (shouldn't) will happen in the process of building a great nation.  In this world the smartest animals prospers. 

Maybe you would be happier if we had let the Nazis overrun Europe?  ???

Well, fact is that russians did have the greatest part of work to beat nazis, while you guys were overrun by japanese, but it is nice that you know your history so well...

OzmO

  • Moderator
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 22731
  • Drink enough Kool-aid and you'll think its healthy
Well, fact is that russians did have the greatest part of work to beat nazis, while you guys were overrun by japanese, but it is nice that you know your history so well...

Who was overrun by the Japanese?  Attacking the unprepared makes any army look brilliant.  Look at Barbarrosa, when the Germans attacked Russia. 

tu_holmes

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 15922
  • Robot
Wow.  The US is not as bad a torturer as Al Qaeda.

Strike up the band!  We can hang our hats on that with pride!.

Come on Beach Bum.  We fight those torturers.  We don't become shady reflections of them.

I agree... I thought we knew that Al Quaeda tortured people... This is not really "news".

I don't understand the idea of comparing Al Quaeda to the US government... That's just insane.

It's like comparing Bush to Hitler... No one is as bad as Hitler... NO ONE.

The fact we're having this discussion and we're even remotely thinking about the US in relationship to the evil deeds that Al Quaeda has done, is most surely the saddest thing about this.

I can't believe it's even a talking point...

tu_holmes

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 15922
  • Robot
Well, fact is that russians did have the greatest part of work to beat nazis, while you guys were overrun by japanese, but it is nice that you know your history so well...

I'm confused...

How is a sneak attack on a remote location being "overrun".

Does anyone not remember how the US military stormed through the pacific afterwards?


OzmO

  • Moderator
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 22731
  • Drink enough Kool-aid and you'll think its healthy
I'm confused...

How is a sneak attack on a remote location being "overrun".

Does anyone not remember how the US military stormed through the pacific afterwards?



Well in all fairness.....


They did a quite a number in the Philippines on a under manned, under trained, and under equipped US Army and filpino militia.  That attack started the day after Pearl.  In fact they attacked all sorts of installations around the pacific the day after pearl.


But when the "sleeping Giant" woke up that Yamato talked about it was all but over. 

Eyeball Chambers

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 14344
  • Would you hold still? You're making me fuck up...
Well, fact is that russians did have the greatest part of work to beat nazis,

Thats beside the point.

Just curious, what do you believe the outcome would have been if the United States never entered World War II?
S

OzmO

  • Moderator
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 22731
  • Drink enough Kool-aid and you'll think its healthy
Thats beside the point.

Just curious, what do you believe the outcome would have been if the United States never entered World War II?

Or how about if we didn't give England the Lend Lease program?  Or supplied Russia with trucks and tanks?

Camel Jockey

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 16711
  • Mel Gibson and Bob Sly World Domination
Just read your history, you fuc*king fool. Americans have done all that and more starting with indians, slaves, in korea, in vietnam, and you should not forget that your own dear CIA have teach those rag heads to use those methods. They have used billions to train afghans and iraqi "freedom fighters" to use terrorist tactics, including torture. Your wonderful country isn't any better, it is just another military dictatorship, wrapped on nice but empty words about freedom, love and good will. Your wonderful country has send your youngsters to fight a war which is all about money, which goes to pockets of the few, already rich fuc*kers who doesn't give a shit for those who thinks that they may die "for their country".  USA has been great example of "how to fight against cruelty with greater cruelty" in just about every war which it has been involved, so it is useless to try to hide it.

It's called staying on top.  8)

Decker

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 5780
Are you saying the U.S. has tortured 27 people to death?  Proof? 

Based on what you call "rendition," you are comparing the U.S. to terrorists?  That's wild Decker.  Let me make sure I understand what you're saying.  Are you talking about people being deported back to their own countries? 
Sorry, it was 29 deaths and not 27.  http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/68561.htm

"The vast majority of the deaths in Afghanistan and Iraq were caused by factors such as natural causes, injuries sustained on the battlefield, or detainee-on-detainee violence. In only 29 cases was abuse or other violations of law or policy suspected. In these cases, these alleged violations were properly investigated, and appropriate action was taken..."

As for rendition, Dana Priest received the 2006 Pulitzer Prize for breaking the story of the US's use of rendition.
http://www.danapriestfansite.com/priest07.html

"To comply with anti-torture laws that bar sending people to countries where they are likely to be tortured, the CIA's office of general counsel requires a verbal assurance from each nation that detainees will be treated humanely, according to several recently retired CIA officials familiar with such transfers, known as renditions."

See?  We get the torturing country's assurance that it won't torture the people we send them.

I feel better now.

Except for this:

Another U.S. government official who visited several foreign prisons where suspects were rendered by the CIA after the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, said: "It's beyond that. It's widely understood that interrogation practices that would be illegal in the U.S. are being used."

Dos Equis

  • Moderator
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 64028
  • I am. The most interesting man in the world. (Not)
Sorry, it was 29 deaths and not 27.  http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/68561.htm

"The vast majority of the deaths in Afghanistan and Iraq were caused by factors such as natural causes, injuries sustained on the battlefield, or detainee-on-detainee violence. In only 29 cases was abuse or other violations of law or policy suspected. In these cases, these alleged violations were properly investigated, and appropriate action was taken..."

As for rendition, Dana Priest received the 2006 Pulitzer Prize for breaking the story of the US's use of rendition.
http://www.danapriestfansite.com/priest07.html

"To comply with anti-torture laws that bar sending people to countries where they are likely to be tortured, the CIA's office of general counsel requires a verbal assurance from each nation that detainees will be treated humanely, according to several recently retired CIA officials familiar with such transfers, known as renditions."

See?  We get the torturing country's assurance that it won't torture the people we send them.

I feel better now.

Except for this:

Another U.S. government official who visited several foreign prisons where suspects were rendered by the CIA after the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, said: "It's beyond that. It's widely understood that interrogation practices that would be illegal in the U.S. are being used."


And how do you conclude that we tortured and murdered 29 people from this comment:  "In only 29 cases was abuse or other violations of law or policy suspected. In these cases, these alleged violations were properly investigated, and appropriate action was taken..."

So we're deporting suspected terrorists/criminals back to their own countries?  I'm not losing any sleep over this. 



GreatFinn

  • Getbig III
  • ***
  • Posts: 567
  • Havuja, perkele!?!
Thats beside the point.

Just curious, what do you believe the outcome would have been if the United States never entered World War II?

No, that is just the point. You try to take a honor from russians who have earned it by doing major work to beat the nazis. I didn't say anything about your effort in WWII, just made a little correction to your lies..khm..errors.

Eyeball Chambers

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 14344
  • Would you hold still? You're making me fuck up...
Just curious, what do you believe the outcome would have been if the United States never entered World War II?

Or how about if we didn't give England the Lend Lease program?  Or supplied Russia with trucks and tanks?
S

Camel Jockey

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 16711
  • Mel Gibson and Bob Sly World Domination
No, that is just the point. You try to take a honor from russians who have earned it by doing major work to beat the nazis. I didn't say anything about your effort in WWII, just made a little correction to your lies..khm..errors.

So? Are you saying the vast resources the US brought with it as it entered WWII hadn't no impact? All the rubber, steel, money, guns, ammo, tanks, airplanes had no impact? Who gives a shit if the Russians did most of the work in the eastern front? D-day wouldn't have happened without America.

Decker

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 5780
And how do you conclude that we tortured and murdered 29 people from this comment:  "In only 29 cases was abuse or other violations of law or policy suspected. In these cases, these alleged violations were properly investigated, and appropriate action was taken..."

So we're deporting suspected terrorists/criminals back to their own countries?  I'm not losing any sleep over this. 
You're right Beach Bum.

Without the facts, other than 29 dead bodies, the interrogation methods were just classified as "abuses."

I'm still looking for that document where Bush and company confess the whole enchilada but I'm having a tough time finding it.

Suspects held by the US and sent to torture using countries with the promise that no torture will happen is just fine with you b/c they are going home?

Mamdouh Habib, an Australian citizen, has alleged he was tortured in Egypt for six months after U.S. officials sent him there.

Is Austrailia Egypt?  No.

Or should we wait for the Bush Administration to 'Self-police' itself much in the way we have voluntary compliance with pollution regulations for Big Business?

ToxicAvenger

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 26516
  • I thawt I taw a twat!
Unfreakingbelievable........I can't believe you said that!
you HONESTLY believe waterboarding is the ONLY method we use?

damn no wonder its been soo many yrs since 911 and we STILL dont know where osama is..

maybe we need to learn from al-queda..

wait..wasn't osama CIA trained to fight the ruskies?

oops..
carpe` vaginum!

Camel Jockey

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 16711
  • Mel Gibson and Bob Sly World Domination
you HONESTLY believe waterboarding is the ONLY method we use?

damn no wonder its been soo many yrs since 911 and we STILL dont know where osama is..

maybe we need to learn from al-queda..

wait..wasn't osama CIA trained to fight the ruskies?

oops..

He honestly doesn't believe that shit. He's too much of a fucking puppet.. he just follow and doesn't ask questions.

if clinton were in the white house and the CIA was guilty of torture, then Mr. I/coach would be all over him.

Dos Equis

  • Moderator
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 64028
  • I am. The most interesting man in the world. (Not)
You're right Beach Bum.

Without the facts, other than 29 dead bodies, the interrogation methods were just classified as "abuses."

I'm still looking for that document where Bush and company confess the whole enchilada but I'm having a tough time finding it.

Suspects held by the US and sent to torture using countries with the promise that no torture will happen is just fine with you b/c they are going home?

Mamdouh Habib, an Australian citizen, has alleged he was tortured in Egypt for six months after U.S. officials sent him there.

Is Austrailia Egypt?  No.

Or should we wait for the Bush Administration to 'Self-police' itself much in the way we have voluntary compliance with pollution regulations for Big Business?

Decker your quote says "In only 29 cases was abuse or other violations of law or policy suspected. In these cases, these alleged violations were properly investigated, and appropriate action was taken..."  This doesn't tell me anything about torture.  It certainly doesn't support your original contention that the U.S. tortured 29 people to death. 

No, I don't have a problem with the United States deported suspected terrorists/criminals to their home countries.  I care much more about American citizens.  Some of those countries use methods we would consider cruel and unusual, like amputating limbs.  That's not our problem. 

Decker

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 5780
Decker your quote says "In only 29 cases was abuse or other violations of law or policy suspected. In these cases, these alleged violations were properly investigated, and appropriate action was taken..."  This doesn't tell me anything about torture.  It certainly doesn't support your original contention that the U.S. tortured 29 people to death. 

No, I don't have a problem with the United States deported suspected terrorists/criminals to their home countries.  I care much more about American citizens.  Some of those countries use methods we would consider cruel and unusual, like amputating limbs.  That's not our problem. 

Do you think they were questioned to death?  Bored to death?

Speaking of torture, you're torturing the concept of "alleged violations" and how that squares with the brute fact of 29 deaths during interrogation. 

As for your personal opinion that it's not your concern that the US sends untried suspects to countries that use torture...that is unfortunate.

Your opinion is not in line with the traditions and ideals inherent in our US Constitution and way of life.


Hedgehog

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 19464
  • It Rubs The Lotion On Its Skin.
:D




If your knowledge is any indicator of what the average Joe Blow knows about the Guantanamo prison, it seems like most Americans are being fed lies and propaganda. :'(


Club Gitmo?

That's some seriously fcuked up shit.

-Hedge
As empty as paradise

Dos Equis

  • Moderator
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 64028
  • I am. The most interesting man in the world. (Not)
Do you think they were questioned to death?  Bored to death?

Speaking of torture, you're torturing the concept of "alleged violations" and how that squares with the brute fact of 29 deaths during interrogation. 

As for your personal opinion that it's not your concern that the US sends untried suspects to countries that use torture...that is unfortunate.

Your opinion is not in line with the traditions and ideals inherent in our US Constitution and way of life.



The quote you provided doesn't indicate whether 1 or 29 people were tortured, how those individuals died, and what action was taken.  Pure supposition on your part.   

You're really misstating my opinion.  I have no trouble with the U.S. sending foreign suspected terrorists/criminals back to their own countries to face that country's criminal justice system.  I have no problem with that opinion.  I sleep well.   :)

 

Decker

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 5780
The quote you provided doesn't indicate whether 1 or 29 people were tortured, how those individuals died, and what action was taken.  Pure supposition on your part.   

You're really misstating my opinion.  I have no trouble with the U.S. sending foreign suspected terrorists/criminals back to their own countries to face that country's criminal justice system.  I have no problem with that opinion.  I sleep well.   :)
The facts we have to go on are this http://www.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrc/docs/ngos/wohr.pdf

Karate, cables, bats and electrical shocks were used on Afghan detainees.

That is not supposition.

On the other hand, we could assume death by natural causes during interrogation but that would fly in the face of the State Department's finding that abuses occurred.

As for sending ALLEGED terrorists to their own countries, I showed you a case of an Australian being sent to Egypt.  I will find more but I have to go now.

We have a good military but not a perfect military.  Mistakes are made and innocent people suffer torture.

Dos Equis

  • Moderator
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 64028
  • I am. The most interesting man in the world. (Not)
The facts we have to go on are this http://www.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrc/docs/ngos/wohr.pdf

Karate, cables, bats and electrical shocks were used on Afghan detainees.

That is not supposition.

On the other hand, we could assume death by natural causes during interrogation but that would fly in the face of the State Department's finding that abuses occurred.

As for sending ALLEGED terrorists to their own countries, I showed you a case of an Australian being sent to Egypt.  I will find more but I have to go now.

We have a good military but not a perfect military.  Mistakes are made and innocent people suffer torture.

I read parts of the link.  I saw no references at all.  Hard to accept what the report says at face value.  Doesn't look very reliable.

I don't support the U.S. sending suspected terrorists to a country other than the suspect's home country solely for the purpose of having some other country torture the person.  I doubt we're doing this.   

headhuntersix

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 17271
  • Our forefathers would be shooting by now
I missed this one too..Europeans should not point any fingers at the US in anyway shape or form......Africa from about 1815-1971 or so. You guys are up to ur asses in blood. U guys wrote the book on crushing indiginous peoples.
L