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Title: Football outsiders ranks the top defensive lines in football
Post by: body88 on July 24, 2007, 10:21:41 AM
FootballOutsiders.com, Updated 10 hours ago   STORY TOOLS:                         

 
Every football game involves a million different individual battles that can overwhelm even the most knowledgeable fan. Still, even without knowing route trees, blocking schemes or complex zone blitzes, a casual fan can tell how an offense versus defense matchup will play out based on two observations. First, can the defense stop the run without bringing a safety in for support? Second, can the defense pressure the quarterback without being forced to blitz?

The key defensive unit in these crucial battles is the defensive line. Defensive linemen range from the fleet-footed Dwight Freeney to the immense Pat Williams. Those two players are so exceptional at their one skill — rushing the passer in Freeney's case, stuffing the run for Williams — that their weaknesses in other aspects of the game are excusable. For an entire unit, however, we look for teams that can both stuff the run and get to the quarterback, with enough depth to withstand the inevitable injury or two.

There are a few stats we can use to judge defensive lines. Adjusted Line Yards measures run defense, while Adjusted Sack Rate considers sacks per pass play. We described these stats in the introduction to our offensive line rankings, and for the defense, we just turn them around. The defensive stats for 2006 are here.

We can also judge individual pass rushers on sacks, hits and hurries. Everybody knows sacks, but quarterback hits were added to the play-by-play in 2006. Hurries are an unofficial stat that we've been tracking with the Football Outsiders game charting project, our army of volunteers that compiles new stats by watching tape of every NFL game. You'll find a big article about hits and hurries, along with the numbers for every defensive lineman and linebacker in the NFL, in our new book Pro Football Prospectus 2007, available at local bookstores or from Amazon.com.


New England's Richard Seymour anchors one of the best defensive lines in football.


Here are the top 16 defensive lines in football with last year's rank in parentheses.


1. New England (7)

For years, Bill Belichick's defense has been built around linebackers. Those days are over, and by far the best unit on this defense is the defensive line. Richard Seymour is an extraordinary football player, but a season ago, he became invisible at times. Fortunately, fellow starters Ty Warren and Vince Wilfork rose to elite levels. According to Adjusted Line Yards, the Patriots were the second-best team preventing runs behind the offensive right tackle, runs which go right at Warren. Wilfork has joined the short list of outstanding nose tackles, the type of player who can completely change a game without making a single tackle. If these three weren't enough of a problem, end Jarvis Green is good enough to start for most teams but is merely a spare part in New England, and tackle Mike Wright has gone from an undrafted nobody to one of the league's most productive second-stringers. If the Patriots ever wanted to show a four-man front, either Roosevelt Colvin or Adalius Thomas could torture quarterbacks from a three-point stance on the outside.

2. Jacksonville (17)

Nobody has ever doubted the outstanding tackle duo of John Henderson and Marcus Stroud. Until last year, however, we did not know how good the Jaguars' depth along the defensive line was. Outstanding pass rusher Reggie Hayward was lost for the season in Week 1, and Stroud missed five games. The Jaguars hardly missed a beat, ranking third in Adjusted Line Yards. Their pass rush was weaker than 2005, but that was to be expected with Hayward sidelined. Bobby McCray may be the best defensive end you've never heard of, and Paul Spicer is a quality veteran who plays the run well. Back-up tackle Rob Meier fills in solidly behind Henderson and Stroud. The Jaguars would be No. 1 if we knew for sure that Hayward would return from his Achilles injury as a productive player. If he is anywhere near 100 percent, the Jaguars defense is going to cause enormous problems for the opposition, and maybe get them back in the playoffs.

3. Carolina (4)


2006 was a disappointing season for the Panthers, but the defensive line was hardly to blame. On pure talent alone, Panthers fans can easily argue that they have the top unit. Julius Peppers is on the short list of players who may be the best defensive player in football. Mike Rucker and Kris Jenkins are both exceptional players. Ma'ake Kemoeatu, Damione Lewis and Jordan Carstens give them impressive depth at defensive tackle. The team does have some question marks, primarily due to health concerns. Jenkins' biggest weakness is an inability to stay on the field, as he was injured in 2004 and 2005. He was healthy all season a year ago but lacked some of the explosiveness of his pre-injury days. Rucker blew out his ACL in December and may not be at his best this season. Charles Johnson, a third-round pick from Georgia, is an outstanding prospect at defensive end. The final question mark is Carstens, who is suffering from kidney disease and waiting for medical clearance.

4. San Diego (14)


Shawne Merriman gets all the headlines thanks to his huge sack totals, but the defensive line is essential for Merriman to ply his trade. Defensive tackle Jamal Williams was not as dominant in 2006 as he was in 2005, but he remains among the best at his position. The key to this unit has been the development of the defensive ends. Luis Castillo plays a fundamentally sound defensive end and is emerging as a star. Igor Olshansky struggles to get pressure on the quarterback but is stout against the run. Off the bench, Jacques Cesaire provides some of the pass rush that they lack with Olshansky.

5. Miami


Poll

Like the Panthers, the Dolphins had a very disappointing 2006, and again, the defensive line was not the problem. Jason Taylor was a very deserving Defensive Player of the Year, wreaking havoc on opposing quarterbacks and playing stout run defense. The middle of the defensive line is a little old with Vonnie Holliday and Keith Traylor. Holliday, though, clearly has something left, and gets good penetration from the interior. The key to the unit will be a couple of untested players. Second-year defensive end Matt Roth takes over as the starter and should be more disruptive than the departed Kevin Carter. Support in the middle of the line comes from Paul Soliai, a rookie from Utah who replaces the ineffective Jeff Zgonina.

6. Minnesota (18)


The 2006 Vikings run defense was the best in the NFL since the 2000 Ravens, thanks in large part to an outstanding defensive line. Pat and Kevin Williams (no relation) are absolutely impossible to handle in the middle of the line. A motivated Pat Williams is arguably the best run defender in football. The only reason the Vikings do not rank first is that the defensive line struggled mightily to get to the quarterback. Starting defensive end Kenechi Udeze plays the run well but recorded zero sacks on the season. The Vikings overall were second to last in Adjusted Sack Rate. The good news — and the reason they are still a top 10 unit — is that according to our game-charting project, they ranked eighth in hurries per charted pass play. Look for some of those hurries to turn into sacks this season.

7. Baltimore (11)

Based on their starting three, the Ravens would rank higher, but depth is a bit of a question. Defensive tackle Haloti Ngata impressed as a rookie, but the more significant addition a year ago was Trevor Pryce. The veteran arrived from Denver and provided exceptional pass rushing skills with 13 sacks. Kelly Gregg is a stout run defender but is a non-factor at times in the passing game. Behind these players, Justin Bannan and Dwan Edwards are unproven. Pryce turns 32 before the season starts, and an injury to him could create problems.

8. Philadelphia (6)


The Eagles' big names are at defensive end with Jevon Kearse and Darren Howard, but neither one is the pass-rushing threat he used to be. Kearse has not had 10 sacks since 2001, and Howard only had five a season ago. To his credit, Howard is at least a solid defender against the run. The strength of the team is an impressive defensive line rotation. Mike Patterson and Darwin Walker were effective last season, with Patterson holding his own against the run and Walker providing pass rush. Walker was shipped to Buffalo, and Philadelphia hopes for improved play from Broderick Bunkley. Last year's first-round pick, Bunkley never entered the rotation but has incredible physical skills. The signings of Ian Scott and Montae Reagor provide depth in the middle unmatched by any other team. The defensive end position is also deep with the solid Trent Cole and rookie Victor Abiamiri.

9. Chicago (1)


 
Chicago's D-line struggled after Tommie Harris got injured last year. (Jonathan Daniel / Getty Images)

A year ago, the Bears appeared to have a deep and talented defensive line. Then Tommie Harris got injured, and it became obvious that the Bears had a bunch of solid but unspectacular linemen. The only difference-maker besides the outstanding Harris was rookie Mark Anderson. Anderson should start this season at defensive end, and it will be interesting to see if he can hold up against the run. The Bears have completely reworked their defensive tackle rotation. They elected to let Ian Scott or Alfonso Boone leave in free agency. After another run-in with the law, they said No tanks to Tank Johnson. To fill the hole, they acquired Anthony Adams from San Francisco, and he should be a good fit for the Bears' Tampa-2 system. He will be joined by Dusty Dvoracek, a third-round pick in 2006 who missed last season with a foot injury. If Harris is 100 percent, look for glowing stories about Dvoracek and the rest of the revamped D-line. If Harris struggles with his health, the Bears defense will look very mediocre overall.

10. Pittsburgh (3)


A year ago, the Steelers' defensive line remained extremely healthy and played at a high level, but they may not reach those heights this year. Casey Hampton joins Jamal Williams and Vince Wilfork in the triumvirate of outstanding 3-4 nose tackles, but he doesn't add as much as Williams and Wilfork when it comes to the pass rush. Brett Keisel was a nice surprise as a replacement for Kimo von Oelhoffen, but he is a 29-year-old journeyman who probably enjoyed his best season. Aaron Smith is an excellent 3-4 defensive end who holds his ground well against the run. As for depth, only Chris Hoke at defensive tackle is a proven commodity.

11. New York Giants (5)

The top 10 is a little defensive-tackle heavy, as the Giants are our first team truly dominated by the defensive ends. Michael Strahan remains a great player but has now missed half a season twice in the last three years. On the other end, Osi Umenyiora also battled injuries but is younger and more likely to return to his Pro Bowl form. The middle is a dicier proposition with Barry Cofield and Fred Robbins best described as mediocre. Cofield is young and has upside potential, while Robbins is adequate. Nobody knows what to make of William Joseph, who, if he played quarterback, would have long since been cut and written off as an enormous draft bust.

12. Seattle (2)


Sometimes, despite voluminous film study and all the advanced statistics in the world, you do not know how good a player is until he goes out with an injury. We knew Marcus Tubbs was an asset in a solid defensive tackle rotation, but after he was lost for the season with a knee injury, the team's run defense collapsed. Tubbs had microfracture surgery in the off-season, and while reports on his recovery are encouraging, the risk drops the Seahawks into the teens. The good news is that Patrick Kerney is a strong upgrade at defensive end. Nobody on last year's defensive line had even five sacks, and a healthy Kerney should provide more pass rush. The strength remains up the middle with Tubbs, Rocky Bernard, Chuck Darby, Craig Terrill and rookie third-rounder Brandon Mebane.


Poll

13. Atlanta (28)


The Falcons' defensive line gave a complete performance a season ago, ranking 12th in Adjusted Line Yards and eighth in Adjusted Sack Rate. However, an off-season quadriceps injury to Rod Coleman will certainly hurt their interior push. Coleman has only missed three games over the past four seasons but will miss at least that many after a boating accident. The departure of Patrick Kerney is a short-term downgrade, but first-round pick Jamal Anderson will eventually be a better player. John Abraham hopes for a healthier season in his second year with Atlanta as Chauncey Davis is stretched as a starter. The more important addition last season was Grady Jackson at defensive tackle, where he can single-handedly turn a rushing defense around. At age 34 and with a certain amount of, let's say ... girth, Jackson may not age gracefully.

14. New Orleans (20
)

The Saints' defense was below average, particularly for a conference championship team, but the defensive line was certainly the team's strongest unit. Will Smith continued to develop as an outstanding defensive end and picked up 10.5 sacks. The center of the line, Hollis Thomas and Brian Young, is solid as these are good players who attack up the field well. Still, a physical offensive line can overpower them. Left defensive end Charles Grant received an enormous contract to stay in New Orleans, which showed his value to the unit. Tackle depth should be improved with the importation of Kendrick Clancy from the Cardinals.

15. Green Bay (25)

This ranking may be high for the Packers, but if they are going to make a surprise playoff run, the defensive line will be this good. Aaron Kampman is one of the league's most complete defensive ends, pressuring the quarterback while still playing the run adequately. On the other end, Cullen Jenkins has assumed the starting role, and this unheralded player is certainly someone to watch this year. Kabeer Gbaja-Biamila returns to the role of pass-rush specialist, where he should again be an impact player. The key for the unit is the health of Justin Harrell, the first-round pick out of Tennessee. Harrell was considered a reach in the draft but has excellent physical skills. One weakness is that Kampman and Ryan Pickett on the left side of the line get pushed back on running plays more than the Packers would like. Both players amass numerous tackles, but too often they are several yards downfield.

16. Indianapolis (16)

During the regular season, the Colts' D-line played like one of the worst units in the league. In the playoffs, it played like a top 10 unit. As a result, we compromise with a ranking of 16th. Run defense is the primary problem. The Colts had problems taking down quarterbacks last year — they only had 25 sacks — but they didn't have any trouble getting close to the quarterback, ranking in the top 10 in both quarterback hits and hurries. Dwight Freeney is now the highest-paid defender in the league, even after recording only 5.5 sacks last season. Perhaps the Colts' front office knows what Football Outsiders knows, that Freeney led the NFL in quarterback hurries last season despite the low sack total. Freeney can still rush the passer, but opposing quarterbacks never hold the ball for more than a couple seconds against the Colts' zone defense. Opposing pint-sized defensive end Robert Mathis played every down for the first time and held up surprisingly well against the run. Raheem Brock struggled against the run after being shifted inside to tackle. Booger McFarland is past his prime, but the Colts would not have won the Super Bowl had they not traded for him.                                                                                                                                                                                                       

Title: Re: Football outsiders ranks the top defensive lines in football
Post by: UPINTHEMGUTS on July 24, 2007, 10:52:37 AM
Uh oh...time for another nut-hugging speech from Body88 over his beloved Pats! ;D
Title: Re: Football outsiders ranks the top defensive lines in football
Post by: body88 on July 24, 2007, 11:04:35 AM
Uh oh...time for another nut-hugging speech from Body88 over his beloved Pats! ;D

No speech today!
Title: Re: Football outsiders ranks the top defensive lines in football
Post by: Hedgehog on August 02, 2007, 03:50:39 AM
It's "Patriots". Not "Pats".

Title: Re: Football outsiders ranks the top defensive lines in football
Post by: body88 on August 02, 2007, 04:27:12 AM
It's "Patriots". Not "Pats".



Everyone calls the patriots the "pats". Kind of like when people call the Red Sox the Sox. The patriots sounds formal. I know that sounds weird, "to formal". When all the NE fans are wasted it is easier to scream " Pass me ah beeeaaah andddd turn on thaaa patsssss!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Football outsiders ranks the top defensive lines in football
Post by: UPINTHEMGUTS on August 02, 2007, 06:35:50 AM
It's "Patriots". Not "Pats".



Go ahead and keep talking. Act like you know what you're talking about.
Title: Re: Football outsiders ranks the top defensive lines in football
Post by: body88 on August 02, 2007, 06:59:27 AM
Go ahead and keep talking. Act like you know what you're talking about.


Calling the pats the patriots is kind of like when a friend calls you by your full name when you go by a nickname. You know what I mean?
Title: Re: Football outsiders ranks the top defensive lines in football
Post by: Always Sore on August 02, 2007, 07:31:47 AM
Number 8....this is a outrage... ;D
Title: Re: Football outsiders ranks the top defensive lines in football
Post by: Fury on August 02, 2007, 04:45:29 PM
It's "Patriots". Not "Pats".



You're wrong. I prefer "overrated douche bags". Has the same ring if you ask me!!!!!  :D


Personally, I'd put that Pats 4th but winning a Super Bowl 3 years ago works wonders for biased rankings!
Title: Re: Football outsiders ranks the top defensive lines in football
Post by: body88 on August 03, 2007, 05:43:51 AM
You're wrong. I prefer "overrated douche bags". Has the same ring if you ask me!!!!!  :D


Personally, I'd put that Pats 4th but winning a Super Bowl 3 years ago works wonders for biased rankings!

I do not agree. The patriots allowed the fewest passing tds in the nfl last year. This was accomplished with a secondary riddled with injuries most of the season. Harrison was out, Gay was hurt, Hobbs was playing with a broken wrist etc etc. Samuel had a great year, but he was not shutting teams down. The reason they allowed the fewest passing tds was because of the outstanding defensive line. The pats run a 3/4.

Seymour is a perennial pro bowler, Warren had pro bowl numbers last year and Wilfork is right there. Warren and Wilfork are 26, Seymour is 28. They are a very talented unit.

I don't understand why you hate the patriots so much. They go all the way to the AFC championship game last year with no name wr's and they all the sudden are no good just because they did not win a fourth superbowl? Whatever floats your boat.



Title: Re: Football outsiders ranks the top defensive lines in football
Post by: Always Sore on August 03, 2007, 06:11:01 AM
I do not agree. The patriots allowed the fewest passing tds in the nfl last year. This was accomplished with a secondary riddled with injuries most of the season. Harrison was out, Gay was hurt, Hobbs was playing with a broken wrist etc etc. Samuel had a great year, but he was not shutting teams down. The reason they allowed the fewest passing tds was because of the outstanding defensive line. The pats run a 3/4.

Seymour is a perennial pro bowler, Warren had pro bowl numbers last year and Wilfork is right there. Warren and Wilfork are 26, Seymour is 28. They are a very talented unit.

I don't understand why you hate the patriots so much. They go all the way to the AFC championship game last year with no name wr's and they all the sudden are no good just because they did not win a fourth superbowl? Whatever floats your boat.



I hate the Patriots simply because they beat my Eagles in the SB.. ;D other then that they are the team of the decade so far.
Title: Re: Football outsiders ranks the top defensive lines in football
Post by: body88 on August 03, 2007, 06:29:59 AM
I have no problem with that. I am talking about when people let there disdain for a team cloud there analysis of a game or players. Not to say people do not have a right to there opinion. But some of the criticism you hear about the pats is laughable. Its almost like they won those three sb's in 4 years so now going to the afc championship game and being one first down away from another sb appearance is no good and they are done. They had a better season then 99 percent of the nfl last year, I would not call that done. I am not talking about any posters on here, just melting down in general haha.
Title: Re: Football outsiders ranks the top defensive lines in football
Post by: UPINTHEMGUTS on August 03, 2007, 07:35:25 AM
I do not agree. The patriots allowed the fewest passing tds in the nfl last year. This was accomplished with a secondary riddled with injuries most of the season. Harrison was out, Gay was hurt, Hobbs was playing with a broken wrist etc etc. Samuel had a great year, but he was not shutting teams down. The reason they allowed the fewest passing tds was because of the outstanding defensive line. The pats run a 3/4.

Seymour is a perennial pro bowler, Warren had pro bowl numbers last year and Wilfork is right there. Warren and Wilfork are 26, Seymour is 28. They are a very talented unit.

I don't understand why you hate the patriots so much. They go all the way to the AFC championship game last year with no name wr's and they all the sudden are no good just because they did not win a fourth superbowl? Whatever floats your boat.





Body88,

Berzerkfury has some bent up negativity that I think he needs to address. He has been hell bent on calling out "The ultimate fighter poseurs" and people who wear Tapout clothing as a fashion statement. Apparently, he appears to be the offcial GETBIG spokeman on MMA fighting and hates anyone else's point of view on pretty much everything else, including your beloved Pats. Anyone know who his NFL team is?

I like Berzerk, though. He's a funny cat.
Title: Re: Football outsiders ranks the top defensive lines in football
Post by: Always Sore on August 03, 2007, 07:53:51 AM
I have no problem with that. I am talking about when people let there disdain for a team cloud there analysis of a game or players. Not to say people do not have a right to there opinion. But some of the criticism you hear about the pats is laughable. Its almost like they won those three sb's in 4 years so now going to the afc championship game and being one first down away from another sb appearance is no good and they are done. They had a better season then 99 percent of the nfl last year, I would not call that done. I am not talking about any posters on here, just melting down in general haha.

Damm that being said I must confess I have a irrational hatered of the redskins...To the point I tell people I have two favorite teams the Eagles and whoever is playing the redskins... ;D
Title: Re: Football outsiders ranks the top defensive lines in football
Post by: CalvinH on August 03, 2007, 07:58:54 AM
You're wrong. I prefer "overrated douche bags". Has the same ring if you ask me!!!!!  :D


Personally, I'd put that Pats 4th but winning a Super Bowl 3 years ago works wonders for biased rankings!


Your a CT boy who do you like,the Giants?
Title: Re: Football outsiders ranks the top defensive lines in football
Post by: Fury on August 03, 2007, 08:38:19 AM
Body88,

Berzerkfury has some bent up negativity that I think he needs to address. He has been hell bent on calling out "The ultimate fighter poseurs" and people who wear Tapout clothing as a fashion statement. Apparently, he appears to be the offcial GETBIG spokeman on MMA fighting and hates anyone else's point of view on pretty much everything else, including your beloved Pats. Anyone know who his NFL team is?

I like Berzerk, though. He's a funny cat.

hahahaha!!!!!!!!!! Getbig spokesperson, has a nice ring. I just don't like the TUF fanboys. If you ever go to the big MMA forums, these are the same clowns that walk around saying Tim Sylvia could dominate Fedor and stuff like all Pride fighters are pussys, etc. I'm just having fun with it. Plus, Tapout is just really, really gay clothing. Go to any school and you'll be hard pressed to find people wearing it, outside of the fight shorts.

Chargers should've beaten the Pats but I'm not going to go into that again.  :D


My team is the Giants, Kings of New York!!!!! I'm not at liberty to discuss our season though because it's on track to be a disaster. My heart for Strahan to stop being a twat and come back.  :'(

Title: Re: Football outsiders ranks the top defensive lines in football
Post by: headhuntersix on August 04, 2007, 07:58:50 PM
Biased rankings..yeah do u even watch football.  ::) I think the Jags might have a better line but the PATS are my team so good for them. Have fun with Manning and his 8 million INT's. I think the Manning experiment will be over this fall. As for the SD game. Giimme a break, we won dude. Just like the AFC championship game. Two key drops and a few bad calls and we lost. Not to mention the 21-3 lead we blew. The Pats lost, easy to admit, and I hate the Dolts. It will be a fun season with you.


GO PATSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS SSSSSS
Title: Re: Football outsiders ranks the top defensive lines in football
Post by: body88 on August 04, 2007, 08:51:36 PM
Biased rankings..yeah do u even watch football.  ::) I think the Jags might have a better line but the PATS are my team so good for them. Have fun with Manning and his 8 million INT's. I think the Manning experiment will be over this fall. As for the SD game. Giimme a break, we won dude. Just like the AFC championship game. Two key drops and a few bad calls and we lost. Not to mention the 21-3 lead we blew. The Pats lost, easy to admit, and I hate the Dolts. It will be a fun season with you.


GO PATSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS SSSSSS

Manning lost Tarik Glenn to retierment. Tarik proteted Mannings blind sidesince he came into the leauge. Theyare going to have a backup or the rookie Ugoh in there. Tarik was one of if not the best in the game at his position. It is being reported the colts might have just lost MCfarland for the season with a knee injury. Sanders is already hurt also.
Title: Re: Football outsiders ranks the top defensive lines in football
Post by: headhuntersix on August 04, 2007, 09:02:17 PM
Hey Body.....Sanders was hurt all last year..not sure his deal. Played fine against us.  That would be good news because I guess the guy they got from the Eagles two years ago...is MIA. As long as Moss's hammy holds up. Wow!!! they made a huge deal about that in the NE papers this week. Any word on Stallworth
Title: Re: Football outsiders ranks the top defensive lines in football
Post by: Fury on August 04, 2007, 10:07:16 PM
Biased rankings..yeah do u even watch football.  ::) I think the Jags might have a better line but the PATS are my team so good for them. Have fun with Manning and his 8 million INT's. I think the Manning experiment will be over this fall. As for the SD game. Giimme a break, we won dude. Just like the AFC championship game. Two key drops and a few bad calls and we lost. Not to mention the 21-3 lead we blew. The Pats lost, easy to admit, and I hate the Dolts. It will be a fun season with you.


GO PATSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS SSSSSS

hahaha, the hypocrisy in your post is hilarious. Typical of a Pats fan that doesn't know anything about the team outside of the fact that they win a lot. You claim they beat SD despite the fact that they dominated the Pats on both sides of the ball for most of that game. That's fine. Then you turn around and tell me the Pats won the Colts game despite the fact they lost, and after falling apart? Yup, you're an idiot. Here's a little newsflash, they had one of the biggest meltdown/chokejobs in league title game history. Go on again, the Chargers and Colts game were different how?

Anyways, the Colts window will be open for a few more years. Maybe not this year after all the losses, which is fine. They'll rebuild. Not like the Pats window isn't closing themselves with the exorbitant amount of aging players littering that roster.  :D

Typical Mass. argument. "The Jags line is better but the Pats are my team so they're automatically better." Honestly, do you watch football or are you one of the typical New Englander fans who didn't watch any games until they won 2 SB's?  :o
Title: Re: Football outsiders ranks the top defensive lines in football
Post by: UPINTHEMGUTS on August 05, 2007, 10:39:30 AM
Counting down the seconds until Body88 responds.........


3...2....1.......
Title: Re: Football outsiders ranks the top defensive lines in football
Post by: body88 on August 05, 2007, 10:54:29 AM
hahaha, the hypocrisy in your post is hilarious. Typical of a Pats fan that doesn't know anything about the team outside of the fact that they win a lot. You claim they beat SD despite the fact that they dominated the Pats on both sides of the ball for most of that game. That's fine. Then you turn around and tell me the Pats won the Colts game despite the fact they lost, and after falling apart? Yup, you're an idiot. Here's a little newsflash, they had one of the biggest meltdown/chokejobs in league title game history. Go on again, the Chargers and Colts game were different how?

Anyways, the Colts window will be open for a few more years. Maybe not this year after all the losses, which is fine. They'll rebuild. Not like the Pats window isn't closing themselves with the exorbitant amount of aging players littering that roster.  :D

Typical Mass. argument. "The Jags line is better but the Pats are my team so they're automatically better." Honestly, do you watch football or are you one of the typical New Englander fans who didn't watch any games until they won 2 SB's?  :o


While I respect your opinion about the jags line I disagree. I think the pats have the better line. Not just because I am a pats fan either. For a team to allow the fewest passing tds in the leauge with a secondary riddled with injury they have to have a outstanding line. The line is very young, and extremley talented. A succesful 3/4 depends on it.

That aside where are the pats aging all over? Aside from the lb position. If you had been following the pats this year at all you would know that second year lb Peire Woods has been outstanding in camp and primed to step in to contribute this year. lau is showing a ton of promise also. Taking tons of reps in camp. They also have Alexander waiting in the wings. Just because the pats did not take a lb this year does not mean they were not grooming any. Belichick has never taken a lb high and prefers vets in the role due to how complicated it is in his system. Looks at the lb's he has had over the years. They have been grooming two lb's and they look ready to contribute. The national media or non pats fans would have no way to know this. The pats defensive line is extremley young. The offensive line is young. Meriweather is Rodneys eventual replacement. He is ready to start. The secondary is pretty young. Samuel, Hobbs, Meriweather, Sanders and Wilson are not old. Brady is only 30. The recieving corps is young (aside from Moss).The te's are young (Watson, Thomas) Thomas is only in his second year. Watson is only 26. Maroney is only is his second year at rb. Gostkowski is young. The pats have youth in there depth also. The pats have a great mix of youth and vets imo. The only "older" unit is the lbs.  The pats have two first round picks,two third round picks, a slew of comp pics, plus there regular picks next year. They also will have about 29 million in cap space again. I think they might have the tools to stay on the top of the pile for a few more years.

The colts have no cap space. They have players like Dallas Clark and Bob Sanders up for contracts next year. They just made Freeney the highest paid defensive player ever. They just lost the best in the biz who was protecting Mannings blindside since day one in Glen. They lost most there secondary and there second rb. Simon is gone with 14 million bucks of there cash, Mcfarlandmay be out for the year and Sanders is already hurt. Harrison is a year older and they have no first round pick next year. Plus a tougher schedule and a sb hangover. They have the offense to repeat, but that run d was the fifth worst in NFL history last year. With the losses of Booger, Sanders, Glenn (on top of there other losses) they could be in for a rough ride.


The colts have the offense to get to the sb, depends if the added sacks and lack of d will hold them back . They where also extremley lucky injury wise last year.
Title: Re: Football outsiders ranks the top defensive lines in football
Post by: Fury on August 05, 2007, 02:15:47 PM
In all honesty, why would I follow the Pats at all? They aren't my team. I also don't know much about the Colts outside of the losses they've taken this off-season. Good post but I wasn't attacking you. I was attacking the typical hypocritical fanboy that bases his entire argument on the fact that, "They're my favorite team so they're the best despite the fact they can go 0-256 over the next 10 years". It's a retarded argument and proves that the person saying it is one of those guys who only follows the team when they're winning consistently. I don't even like the Colts. I just like the fact they're one of the few teams who legitimately have a chance to beat the Pats every time they play. I also think there are 4-5 teams in the AFC now that have that possibility as well.

Title: Re: Football outsiders ranks the top defensive lines in football
Post by: body88 on August 05, 2007, 09:02:05 PM
In all honesty, why would I follow the Pats at all? They aren't my team. I also don't know much about the Colts outside of the losses they've taken this off-season. Good post but I wasn't attacking you. I was attacking the typical hypocritical fanboy that bases his entire argument on the fact that, "They're my favorite team so they're the best despite the fact they can go 0-256 over the next 10 years". It's a retarded argument and proves that the person saying it is one of those guys who only follows the team when they're winning consistently. I don't even like the Colts. I just like the fact they're one of the few teams who legitimately have a chance to beat the Pats every time they play. I also think there are 4-5 teams in the AFC now that have that possibility as well.




I thought you might follow them somewhat.Some of the statements you make about the pats are way off base. The aging all over thing being one of them. I have no problem with people who do not like the pats.


The colts just lost McFarland for the season. He was a key cog in a defense that ranked the fifth worst in NFL history last year. I know the d stepped it up in the playoffs, but I am going to have to revert to what they did over 16 games during the reg season. The loss of McFarland is HUGE for the colts defense. Sanders is a great player but injury prone. He missed a ton of time during the regular season. He is already pupped. Freeney cant do it all on his own. Not to mention he is useless against the run. Simon just walked off with 14 million bucks of the colts money. He could of at least helped improve the defense. The colts lost several members of there secondary this year. This is not a huge deal as they have several high draft picks they have been grooming to step in. Not to mention they run a cover 2. But what if one of the new starters get hurt? What if they are slow to pick up the system? Then they are forced to use depth guys that will not be as effective since the first line of starters is gone and there high draft pick replacements are going to start. The lose of Tarik Glenn was a big one to. You cannot find perennial pro bowl left tackles very easily. He has been protecting Manning's ass since he came into the league. You would be hard pressed to find a better man for the job. Glenn could take on the best defensive players in the NFL and be very effective. The colts line only allowed one sack every 19 drop backs I believe. That is serious protection. The colts can toss first year player Tony Ugoh in there sure. But I don't care how good he is, Ugoh is a rookie and not in the same stratosphere as Glenn. Friends I have that went to a colts camp practice told me Ugoh is no where ready (dont shoot the messenger) They said Freeney would have layed hits on Manning that would be considered brutal if he was a rival lb. Wide open shot type hits. Manning might be taking some extra shots this year from some of those AFC linebackers he has to face. He could be hurried more often this year. Happy feet could be a dancin if he all the sudden does not have the time he used to to make plays. In all honesty manning is so good he will offset the lose of Glenn. But it will be a factor for the colts this year. Manning is not used to getting hit, things could get ugly this season is a rookie is protecting his ass. What happens if Addi goes down? Who is his backup? Is Addi legit , or the product of a passing offense that does not allow defenders to stack the box?

The colts picked up a big time weapon in Gonzales. With the offense they have they will always be in the hunt for a sb. I think they made a fantastic move grabbing him up. He will fill that slot role Stokley played for them. Anthony will be a better player and be more durable. watching him play I feel he is the perfect player for the colts offense in the slot. In the colts case the best defense is an offense. The colts will have the best offense in the NFL. No defensive pick would have improved them off the bat. Anthony will potentially help them to outscore opponents week in and week out. The pats will right up there offensively also. Last year the pats had no deep threats. Caldwell was just not fast enough. The pats have alot of offensive weapons this year. Thomas and Watson at TE. Moss, Gaffney, Stallworth , Jackson, Welker and Caldwell at wr. Maroney,Morris and Faulk at rb. This year teams will not be able to stack the box, which should allow Maroney to run wild. If they do stack the box they will pay deep. Stallworth and Moss are legit deep threats. Not to mention Gaffney and Welker buzzing around. Welker is like a little fly. You should see him fly out from behind the line. Like a little hornet ripping around the slot.


The top five AFC teams imo are NE, Chargers, Broncos, Colts, Ravens.
Title: Re: Football outsiders ranks the top defensive lines in football
Post by: headhuntersix on August 06, 2007, 09:29:33 AM
Since Body already hit u with the facts I'll just mention my bit. We lost the Colts game dumbass...i never said we didn't, same as we beat the Bolts.  They picked it off and then fumbled it. We goty it back and TB throw a TD and it was game over. Having dominated us all game it was a pretty close score wouldn't u say. Also aren't u in college or something. How much football have u watched. My team stunk for about a million years so now I'm gonna enjoy my time. As far as the Jags, I think they might be as talented as what we have in NE. But the NE line is younger so, I guess u have to go with them. Besides nobody said that the Giants line was any good so don't worry about it.
Title: Re: Football outsiders ranks the top defensive lines in football
Post by: body88 on August 06, 2007, 10:25:27 AM
Since Body already hit u with the facts I'll just mention my bit. We lost the Colts game dumbass...i never said we didn't, same as we beat the Bolts.  They picked it off and then fumbled it. We goty it back and TB throw a TD and it was game over. Having dominated us all game it was a pretty close score wouldn't u say. Also aren't u in college or something. How much football have u watched. My team stunk for about a million years so now I'm gonna enjoy my time. As far as the Jags, I think they might be as talented as what we have in NE. But the NE line is younger so, I guess u have to go with them. Besides nobody said that the Giants line was any good so don't worry about it.

Stallworth got cleared to go. Moss is back in practice. Moss has beens hands down the best receiver other then Gaffney and Welker in camp. Welker has looked awesome, as well as Gaffney. Washington has looked good at times and Caldwell has stepped it up. Chad jackson is running routes and looks like he could return much sooner then though before. I assume he will be pupped until mid season so he can develop. he claims he is ready to go. Doubt the pats let him loose tho, plenty of choices at wry right now. A lot of weapons to work with this year. Brown will get pupped and return mid season imo. maybe even add some depth at corner if need be. gay has looked very sharp at corner. If he stays healthy I am looking forward to watching him play.

Can you imagine the speed/deep threat Stallworth and Moss will display when they are on the field at the same time? How about is Jackson developes the way he is projected to? Maroney will have a field day or opposing d's will pay in the air. That or welker/ gaffney will be first down machines. Watson and Thomas also pose a big challenge for opposing defenses. That is ob just pure speculation at this point. Cool to think about tho.
Title: Re: Football outsiders ranks the top defensive lines in football
Post by: Fury on August 06, 2007, 11:36:09 AM
Biased rankings..yeah do u even watch football.  ::) I think the Jags might have a better line but the PATS are my team so good for them. Have fun with Manning and his 8 million INT's. I think the Manning experiment will be over this fall. As for the SD game. Giimme a break, we won dude. Just like the AFC championship game. Two key drops and a few bad calls and we lost. Not to mention the 21-3 lead we blew. The Pats lost, easy to admit, and I hate the Dolts. It will be a fun season with you.


GO PATSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS SSSSSS

Yup, you didn't say that or anything!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You implied that they won the AFC title game and I checked just now to make sure and apparently you didn't. Don't worry, though. I'm sure in 2 or 3 years when the Pats finish becoming another run of the mill team you can find the next big thing to like! The Bruins should be back to glory by then, hahahahahaha not.

Body88, I don't follow the Pats nor did I bother to read any of that 5,000 word post. I only know whatever is said on ESPN or the statements I decide to twist from my friend's at school who never shut up about them.


Tell me this, what happens if Moss doesn't do anything because he's over the hill and on the way out? Those other recievers are good, but they won't win you a Super Bowl. Not with the types of defense littering the top of the AFC. That'll be grand, though. Just because he's good in camp doesn't me squadoosh.

Not that it matters, the best football will always be played in college.
Title: Re: Football outsiders ranks the top defensive lines in football
Post by: body88 on August 06, 2007, 01:11:06 PM
If Moss was to go down there are plenty of options left for NE at wr. This is by far the most talented wr corps NE has ever had. Last year the pats no names had numbers that dwarfed the likes of Harrison and Wayne in the playoffs. The pats had the better recievers numbers wise last year in the playoffs, they didnt win the sb. Harrison is notorious for doing nothing in the playoffs. Dallas clark had the big receiving numbers last year in the playoffs for the colts. Thomas and Watson are every bit as much of a wr threat as Clark is. The pats have won sb's with a sub par rb in Smith and according to the media "second rate" wr's. The pats have a ton of depth at wr this year. Moss, Stallworth, Jackson, Welker, Gaffney, Caldwell, Brown and Washington. Even with the loss of Moss they would have a very good wr core. They also have Tom Brady throwing them the rock. To have cast off or number three type wr's putting up the numbers they did in the playoffs with no previous experience in the ne system is the mark of a qb who can pull the best out of his receivers. Brady has taken 3 different sets of "sub par" receivers and gotten the absolute best out of them over his career. What other succesful NFl team had to work with wavor wire wr's who missed camp and big parts of the season last year? Players other teams did not want. Brady had them performing huge by playoff time. They went all the way to the afc championship game with guys no one ever heard of. Gaffney did not even start playing for the pats until week three. Wrs work on timing. Not much time to work on that if they get no practice together. They learned one another in live games. By years end Gaffney had two 100 plus yard games in the playoffs. Caldwell had big numbers also. Yea he muffed that pass, but for the most part he was a beast. Gaffney did nothing on his previous teams. Brady has some real weapons and amat least camp to to get some timing this year.


If you are basing sb wins on wrs you better not put money on the Chargers. They lost there best wr for the year. Before the loss the wr core was sub par at best. They have no one right now. The chargers wr core and secondary is there weakness.


As for the comment about camp, what do you want me to ignore how well Moss is doing? I never said it meant he would lead the league in reception yards. The receivers have been very good, just an observation. I never said that would translate into big time years for them in the NFL. I am calling it like I see it. Moss has looked damn good with Brady. As well as Gaffney and Welker. The rest of the crew has been solid. I am not going to gaurentee the pats win the sb. A million things can happen. Out of the top teams they have the most complete team imo. Weapons, youth , vets , coaching and a great defense. The chargers have a ton of talent, but they also have no wr's and a brand new coaching staff. NE and SD are the two best teams IMO.

Title: Re: Football outsiders ranks the top defensive lines in football
Post by: headhuntersix on August 06, 2007, 02:38:25 PM
I'll let Body be the diplomate..he's very good at it...No dumbass i didn't imply anything, i might have missed a comma. I met that while we should have won the AFC Championship game..we didn't,  so no amount of whining on my part will bring a victory. Just like SD, they went home we went to Indy.  Ok answer me this football guy. Saying that we'll have Moss and Stallworth on the wings with Welker in the slot, who do u double cover. Oh yeah, then u have to worry about big Ben Watson, off the line. Or wait, don't forget about Body's guy Mauroney. Pick your poison. They went to the AFC champioship game with average receivers. Gaffeney will make the team. The Dolts took a step back, it happens. SD will be tough. Denver will be tough as well. Either way we'll be very explosive.

I'm giddy....have fun with Archie's other son...... ::)
Title: Re: Football outsiders ranks the top defensive lines in football
Post by: body88 on August 06, 2007, 03:36:14 PM
hh6 check out this roster. This is the most talent the pats have had since the Belli era began. I want to say Gaffney will replace Caldwell on the wr roster. While Caldwell is solid Gaff has been outstanding. Although bug eyes has a better pedigree then Gaff so it could go either way.This is assuming Brown and Jackson are pupped and will return later in the season to make room. The defensive line is plain old nasty. Jarvis could start on most clubs in the leauge and he is a backup on this line. I have high hopes for Kareem. The bonehead got suspended at the start of camp for missing a meeting, but I think he will develope into a fine player one day.


Getting To 53: New England Patriots Roster Prediction
By Tony Moss, NFL Editor


QB (3): Tom Brady, Matt Cassel, Vinny Testaverde

RB (5): Laurence Maroney, Sammy Morris, Kevin Faulk, Heath Evans (FB), Garrett Mills (FB/TE)

WR (6): Randy Moss, Donte' Stallworth, Wes Welker, Reche Caldwell, Troy Brown, Chad Jackson                                                                                Gaffney

TE (3): Ben Watson, Kyle Brady, David Thomas

OL: Matt Light (LT), Logan Mankins (LG), Dan Koppen (C), Stephen Neal (RG), Nick Kaczur (RT), Russ Hochstein (C/G), Ryan O'Callaghan (T), Wes Britt (T)

DL (7): Ty Warren (DE), Richard Seymour (DE), Jarvis Green (DE), Vince Wilfork (NT), Mike Wright (NT), Kareem Brown (DL), Kenny Smith (DL)

LB (9): Adalius Thomas (OLB), Roosevelt Colvin (OLB), Tedy Bruschi (ILB), Mike Vrabel (ILB), Junior Seau (ILB), Eric Alexander (LB), Larry Izzo (LB), Chad Brown (LB), Pierre Woods (LB)

DB (9): Asante Samuel (CB), Ellis Hobbs (CB), Eugene Wilson (FS), Rodney Harrison (SS), Brandon Meriweather (S), Artrell Hawkins (S), James Sanders (S), Randall Gay (CB), Tory James (CB)

SP (3): Stephen Gostkowski (K), Josh Miller (P), Lonie Paxton (LS)
                                                                   

                                                                     Caldwell
Outside Looking In: WR Kelley Washington, WR Jabar Gaffney, T Clint Oldenburg, G Gene Mruczkowski, LB Justin Rogers, LB Corey Mays, S Willie Andrews
Title: Re: Football outsiders ranks the top defensive lines in football
Post by: Fury on August 06, 2007, 04:17:06 PM
I'll let Body be the diplomate..he's very good at it...No dumbass i didn't imply anything, i might have missed a comma. I met that while we should have won the AFC Championship game..we didn't,  so no amount of whining on my part will bring a victory. Just like SD, they went home we went to Indy.  Ok answer me this football guy. Saying that we'll have Moss and Stallworth on the wings with Welker in the slot, who do u double cover. Oh yeah, then u have to worry about big Ben Watson, off the line. Or wait, don't forget about Body's guy Mauroney. Pick your poison. They went to the AFC champioship game with average receivers. Gaffeney will make the team. The Dolts took a step back, it happens. SD will be tough. Denver will be tough as well. Either way we'll be very explosive.

I'm giddy....have fun with Archie's other son...... ::)

Why should you have won the AFC title game? Hate to break it to you, but the Pats were completely outplayed for almost 3/4 of that game. Most fanboys get "giddy," though. You seem to be forgetting the Ravens, who are more than capable of outplaying the Pats and who I suspect will be incredibly dangerous this season, especially with the revamped RB corps. The Pats are good, but to say they're leaps and bounds ahead of any of the other top 5 AFC teams is laughable. Not to mention the Bengals are probably going to play much better as well this year. Same with the Jets. Thomas Jones will shred that defense. The guy's a beast. Can't wait to see the Pats stumble into playoffs!  :D

Can't wait to see Moss barely live up to expectations. That guy's best days are well behind him. Just like TO.
Title: Re: Football outsiders ranks the top defensive lines in football
Post by: body88 on August 06, 2007, 04:36:41 PM
Why should you have won the AFC title game? Hate to break it to you, but the Pats were completely outplayed for almost 3/4 of that game. Most fanboys get "giddy," though. You seem to be forgetting the Ravens, who are more than capable of outplaying the Pats and who I suspect will be incredibly dangerous this season, especially with the revamped RB corps. The Pats are good, but to say they're leaps and bounds ahead of any of the other top 5 AFC teams is laughable. Not to mention the Bengals are probably going to play much better as well this year. Same with the Jets. Thomas Jones will shred that defense. The guy's a beast. Can't wait to see the Pats stumble into playoffs!  :D

Can't wait to see Moss barely live up to expectations. That guy's best days are well behind him. Just like TO.


You are trying to stir the pot. The jets have no offensive line. Jones wont be as good as he was in Chicago. Revis is holding out and half the jets secondary is already injured. Vilma was not that good last year. He is suspect in the 3-4. Chad has had what one healthy season in his career. When he is hurt the jets do nothing. He is always hurt. They also had a very easy schedule last year. They played what a few teams with a winning record last year  ::) D brick is pretty much a bust, and teams will figure out how to expose the jets masking blitz packages. Most of this post is inflamatory. The pats defense is vastly better then the colts. The offense will be comparable. Do you think Marvin Harrison sucks? He is older then Moss. The pats have more depth to there roster on both sides of the ball then the colts. Who backs up Harrison, Wayne and Gonzales? Exactly. The Chargers have the most raw talent. They also have no wide recievers, a second year qb, and a whole new coaching staff. If Lt goes down they are f ed. I feel the pats have the most complete roster of the top teams. maybe not the biggest stars, but def the most depth. The pats suffered way more injuries then any of the teams they played in the playoffs last year.


The colts are suffering massive losses on the fifth worst defense in History.  They also lost a perenial pro bowler who has been protecting Mannings ass since day one.
Title: Re: Football outsiders ranks the top defensive lines in football
Post by: Fury on August 06, 2007, 04:51:10 PM
If LT goes down, Charges are f'ed. If Brady goes down, the Pats are f'ed. What's your point? Or do I need to remind you that LT is probably the most durable player in the NFL? Why do you keep focusing on the Colts? Last I checked, there are 4-5 teams capable of beating the Pats on any given Sunday. Not just the Colts. Vilma had an off year, he'll be back. The Jets, despite all those problems last year, still played the Pats close as hell, even besting them once. Going to be a good year. All hail the future AFC champions, and it's not the Pats!


By the way, comparing Marvin Harrisson to Moss is a terrible argument. I thought you had more intelligence than that. Comparing a receiver that consistently puts up 1000+ yard seasons every year to a guy that's done nothing in the last 3 while visibly slowing down is just sad.

Anyways, I wish one of you clowns would argue college football like this. I'm really tired of talking about the 4th best team in the AFC.
Title: Re: Football outsiders ranks the top defensive lines in football
Post by: body88 on August 06, 2007, 04:55:45 PM
If LT goes down, Charges are f'ed. If Brady goes down, the Pats are f'ed. What's your point? Or do I need to remind you that LT is probably the most durable player in the NFL? Why do you keep focusing on the Colts? Last I checked, there are 4-5 teams capable of beating the Pats on any given Sunday. Not just the Colts. Vilma had an off year, he'll be back. The Jets, despite all those problems last year, still played the Pats close as hell, even besting them once. Going to be a good year. All hail the future AFC champions, and it's not the Pats!


By the way, comparing Marvin Harrisson to Moss is a terrible argument. I thought you had more intelligence than that. Comparing a receiver that consistently puts up 1000+ yard seasons every year to a guy that's done nothing in the last 3 while visibly slowing down is just sad.

Anyways, I wish one of you clowns would argue college football like this. I'm really tired of talking about the 4th best team in the AFC.


Not if Cassel can hold down the ship while he heals. The chargers have no wr's. Opposing teams will stack the box and Make Rivers beat them. New staff, new system. It will cause issues.

I compared Moss to Harrison for his age. Harrison is old as hell and he can still play. The pats dont need Moss to set big records or impress stat guys. They need him to be effective and a big target in the red zone. So far looks pretty damn good. ran a 4.3 forty for a few gb scouts a few months ago. Pretty good for an old guy ;D

I know what you are doing. You are trying to stir the pot. Does not bother me one bit , lol. We will see.
Title: Re: Football outsiders ranks the top defensive lines in football
Post by: Fury on August 06, 2007, 05:02:38 PM
New system for the chargers? Wasn't Turner the guy who installed the current Chargers offense anyway? By the way, they had no receivers last year and had no problem going 14-2. Why would it be any different this year? It's their AFC championship to lose.

I'm not trying to stir it. I'm over that. I have no desire to get in a 12 page argument with you anymore over the Pats. I'd rather talk about college football or something worthwhile. It's the same old thing, Pats will win the division, lose in the playoffs to one of the teams that are better than them (probably Ravens) and life will be grand. I'll have to check back in January!  ;D
Title: Re: Football outsiders ranks the top defensive lines in football
Post by: body88 on August 06, 2007, 06:03:44 PM
New system for the chargers? Wasn't Turner the guy who installed the current Chargers offense anyway? By the way, they had no receivers last year and had no problem going 14-2. Why would it be any different this year? It's their AFC championship to lose.

I'm not trying to stir it. I'm over that. I have no desire to get in a 12 page argument with you anymore over the Pats. I'd rather talk about college football or something worthwhile. It's the same old thing, Pats will win the division, lose in the playoffs to one of the teams that are better than them (probably Ravens) and life will be grand. I'll have to check back in January!  ;D


New system as in new coaching. Different coaches run things differently. The head coach was not the only coaching loss. There were several. Ask Charlie or Romeo if it is easy to go from coordinator to head coach. Winning games is about more then a bunch of talented players. They had several receivers last year. This time they lost the best of an established group that already sucked. That is a problem.  Making a second year qb who has yet to prove himself without a shitload of talent around him could be an issue. I will be looking towards the san d game. The charger's garbage secondary could have some trouble with what the pats can bring offensively. The pats are not afraid of Merimen and co, Light made him his bitch last year.The chargers have Lt and the pats have three backs who can bring it to. Maroney rushed for about 800 yards in 13 games while splitting duty with Dillon last year in his rookie season. He also led the league in kick return yardage until he was hurt. The zone blocking and new ability to stretch the field is going to let the boy run wild. When he gets into the secondary say goodnight. The chargers are a very , very talented and have the ability to beat the pats. They are not "much better" then the pats at all. If so tell me why. Pats have better receivers. Better defensive line, better qb, better secondary, an offensive line that rendered Merimen useless,  more discaplined special teams, and a far better coaching. Granted LT is one of a kind by the pats three headed monster is pretty effective also. If Maroney developers into what he is projected to be he could be a 1300- 1400 yard back.

Tell me why the ravens are better then the pats. Explain to me how the pats overcame many more injuries then the teams they faced last year? I am not saying all these top AFC teams do not have the ability to beat the pats, they do. Any given sunday. To call the pats the fourth best AFC team is laughable.
Title: Re: Football outsiders ranks the top defensive lines in football
Post by: UPINTHEMGUTS on August 06, 2007, 08:13:08 PM
The Ravens will have a better defense and possibly better special teams than the Pats. Overall? Shit.....I hate to say it but I'd trade my coach for Belichik anyday of the week. Brian Billick has made some very curious decisions during his coaching regime pertaining to quarterbacks and game management. Offensively, at least on paper, I think the Pats are better at the offensive line and quarterback positions.(which by the way, are the most important units on the offense, in my mind).

The Ravens O-line will be average at best because of the lack of depth behind the starters. Running backs? I love Maroney's ability but he has to learn to avoid imjuries by revamping his running style. We'll see if he can hold up for a full season. The jury is out on Mcgahee. He's tough son of bitch but he's had attitude issues. From what I read and seen so far, he's happier than a pig in shit to be in B-more with fellow hurricanes Ray Lewis and Ed Reed. But I give the edge to the Pats on offense because of Tom Brady and the O-line.

The Pats have assembled some serious talent at wide receiver via free agency and trades. Moss, Stallworth and Welker should really spread opposing defenses with the vertical passing game. The Ravens, on the other hand, have quietly turned a once weak unit on offense into a strength in a short period of time. Mason is still a valuable possession receiver who can get still get clutch third down conversions when you need them. Todd Heap will again establish himself among the league's best TE's. Mark Clayton will have a huge year statistically for the Ravens with his emergence as the team's number one receiver. His upside is tremendous with his great hands and route running. Demetrius Williams will also have a breakout year this year as the third wideout in one back offensive sets because of his elusiveness and deep speed.

Defenseively? No way the Pats have a better year statistically than the Ravens. The Pats front seven I think, are better talent-wise than the Ravens, especially at D-line. But the Pat's secondary no way compares to the Ravens. No way no how, especially without Asante Samuel. I feel the Pats secondary last year was shielded from a lot of weaknesses because of the strength of their D-line.

No Asante, an aging, injury prone Harrison, and a rookie who will be exposed by more experienced wide outs and quarterbacks.

Sorry Body, but offense is where your bread is buttered this year, not the defense. You may disagree but you won't find many people, including in the New England area, who think the Pats will be better than the Ravens on defense.

Should be an interesting year, nonetheless. We'll see how it plays out.
Title: Re: Football outsiders ranks the top defensive lines in football
Post by: body88 on August 07, 2007, 04:42:52 AM
The Ravens will have a better defense and possibly better special teams than the Pats. Overall? Shit.....I hate to say it but I'd trade my coach for Belichik anyday of the week. Brian Billick has made some very curious decisions during his coaching regime pertaining to quarterbacks and game management. Offensively, at least on paper, I think the Pats are better at the offensive line and quarterback positions.(which by the way, are the most important units on the offense, in my mind).

The Ravens O-line will be average at best because of the lack of depth behind the starters. Running backs? I love Maroney's ability but he has to learn to avoid imjuries by revamping his running style. We'll see if he can hold up for a full season. The jury is out on Mcgahee. He's tough son of bitch but he's had attitude issues. From what I read and seen so far, he's happier than a pig in shit to be in B-more with fellow hurricanes Ray Lewis and Ed Reed. But I give the edge to the Pats on offense because of Tom Brady and the O-line.

The Pats have assembled some serious talent at wide receiver via free agency and trades. Moss, Stallworth and Welker should really spread opposing defenses with the vertical passing game. The Ravens, on the other hand, have quietly turned a once weak unit on offense into a strength in a short period of time. Mason is still a valuable possession receiver who can get still get clutch third down conversions when you need them. Todd Heap will again establish himself among the league's best TE's. Mark Clayton will have a huge year statistically for the Ravens with his emergence as the team's number one receiver. His upside is tremendous with his great hands and route running. Demetrius Williams will also have a breakout year this year as the third wideout in one back offensive sets because of his elusiveness and deep speed.

Defenseively? No way the Pats have a better year statistically than the Ravens. The Pats front seven I think, are better talent-wise than the Ravens, especially at D-line. But the Pat's secondary no way compares to the Ravens. No way no how, especially without Asante Samuel. I feel the Pats secondary last year was shielded from a lot of weaknesses because of the strength of their D-line.

No Asante, an aging, injury prone Harrison, and a rookie who will be exposed by more experienced wide outs and quarterbacks.

Sorry Body, but offense is where your bread is buttered this year, not the defense. You may disagree but you won't find many people, including in the New England area, who think the Pats will be better than the Ravens on defense.

Should be an interesting year, nonetheless. We'll see how it plays out.

Guts I do not think the pats will have the better d. The ravens d will most likely be tops in the league. I see the pats d coming in around the 4 or 5 spot (total). With the offense in the top three. Imo the pats have a more balanced team then the ravens. There is a lot of depth on the pats. take for example Jarvis Greene. A backup on the defensive line that could start on any club in the NFL. Imo the pats are a better football team when both clubs are at 100 percent of course. Which is not to say the ravens are not a top team, they are. Imo i think the pats are a bit more complete. When I said tell me why the ravens are better, I meant as a team. B fury called the pats the 4th best team in the AFC. Which is a crock IMO.

Why no Asante g? His agent has hinted he will hold out for the preseason to try ad force a deal. He would be nuts to actually sit till week ten. I think he would be crazy to lose 8 million. Not to mention he leaves himself open to be tagged again if he does not work something out. The pats allowed the fewest passing tds in the league last year with no secondary. A testament to the defensive line really. The pats have more players then you listed in the secondary. Hobbs, Gay, Sanders, Wilson, James, Meriweather, and even Troy Brown in a pinch. The secondary was decimated last year. The fact the guys back there will be healthy will be an improvement. If the secondary stays healthy they will be a pretty good unit. Asante being the "star" player. Meriweather has been lining up at corner and playing safety also. Sanders is Rodney's back up this year (as well as Meriweather) Sanders is a pretty nice young player. Has been developing for a few years now. 5'11 210.

The ravens have the better defense. No doubt about it. I said the Ravens are not a better team as a whole IMO. Pats are more balanced and have more depth. Not to say that injuries cant change that. Any given sunday any team can win a ball game.The ravens are a great football team.

Title: Re: Football outsiders ranks the top defensive lines in football
Post by: UPINTHEMGUTS on August 07, 2007, 08:18:35 AM
Is Asante in camp or no? Is he curently working with the first team defense? Honestly, I have no idea and you would know better than I would, Body.

If he's not, then the secondary will take a hit this season. He needs to sign the 1 year tender with an agreement in place that the pats won't tag him again next offseason. He may be working out and staying in shape but he's not practicing with the team. It will hurt his ability to contribute on a high level this season by missing all that time.

Body, I can't wait until we play. I give my team a solid shot to win because it's a home game. We'll see!
Title: Re: Football outsiders ranks the top defensive lines in football
Post by: headhuntersix on August 07, 2007, 09:22:40 AM
Why should you have won the AFC title game? Hate to break it to you, but the Pats were completely outplayed for almost 3/4 of that game. Most fanboys get "giddy," though. You seem to be forgetting the Ravens, who are more than capable of outplaying the Pats and who I suspect will be incredibly dangerous this season, especially with the revamped RB corps. The Pats are good, but to say they're leaps and bounds ahead of any of the other top 5 AFC teams is laughable. Not to mention the Bengals are probably going to play much better as well this year. Same with the Jets. Thomas Jones will shred that defense. The guy's a beast. Can't wait to see the Pats stumble into playoffs!  :D

Can't wait to see Moss barely live up to expectations. That guy's best days are well behind him. Just like TO.


I think the Ravens are very good and Guts gave a good break down. I've been worried about the secondary for a few years but we always seem to get by. Merriweather should do well in that system. Fanboy..um yeah their my team. This is the first year that I can say that the pats will havea truly explosive offensive on all levels. What 5 teams...Dolts/Bolts/Ravens/Pats...everybody else is playing for a wild card spot. Nobody is "shredding" our run d. Especially the JETS.
Title: Re: Football outsiders ranks the top defensive lines in football
Post by: body88 on August 07, 2007, 09:38:48 AM
Is Asante in camp or no? Is he curently working with the first team defense? Honestly, I have no idea and you would know better than I would, Body.

If he's not, then the secondary will take a hit this season. He needs to sign the 1 year tender with an agreement in place that the pats won't tag him again next offseason. He may be working out and staying in shape but he's not practicing with the team. It will hurt his ability to contribute on a high level this season by missing all that time.

Body, I can't wait until we play. I give my team a solid shot to win because it's a home game. We'll see!

Last I heard Asante was working out with his trainers in Florida. While that will effect him a bit, he should be fine having played in the system for four years.

Without Samuel the secondary will take a hit for sure. I just don't see him actually sitting for a whole year .Most of the secondary was out last year. They are a solid unit. With Samuel they are a very good unit. Of course the ravens have a solid shot to win. They are a great football team. I am not going to guarantee anything out of the pats. I like the team and think it is a very good one. We shall see how the season plays out. I say they will go 12 - 4 and win it all. Nothing is a given. That is a prediction. Ob a million things can change my predictions outcome. With the depth NE has I think they can go all the way. The injury gods have been hard on the pats over the last 3 seasons. lets hope they are kind this season.

As for the jets, I think they will take a step back. No offense to jets fans but I think the jets where a product of a ridiculously easy schedule and a extremely healthy team. They had no injury issues last year. They have big question marks on there lines. Especially the offensive one. With Kendall pissed off that is just another added problem.

Mangini ran a lot of masking blitz packages last year. Those wont shock teams anymore. Jets made a nice grab in Jones, but if the line sucks he will be in trouble. Jones never had problems with his line in Chi town.
Title: Re: Football outsiders ranks the top defensive lines in football
Post by: Geo on August 07, 2007, 11:02:57 AM
San........dee........eh.........go............super chargers
Title: Re: Football outsiders ranks the top defensive lines in football
Post by: headhuntersix on August 07, 2007, 12:21:24 PM
Chargers...Ok I want an honest opinion from a fan. Changing the coaching staff almost entirely doesn't worry u? I would be very worried about the Bolts this season if that was not the case. One odd play and u guys would have gotten to Indy. I think both teams had  beaten the snot out of each other way to much to have had one of them come out on top in the Indy game but who knows. The Pats decided to stop running the ball at all in the second half. Maybe Marty would have run LT more.