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Getbig Main Boards => General Topics => Topic started by: Special Ed on July 26, 2007, 10:05:12 PM

Title: PAT TILLMAN INTENTIONALLY GUNNED DOWN BY FELLOW RANGERS!
Post by: Special Ed on July 26, 2007, 10:05:12 PM
AP: New details on Tillman's death

By MARTHA MENDOZA, AP National Writer

SAN FRANCISCO - Army medical examiners were suspicious about the close proximity of the three bullet holes in Pat Tillman's forehead and tried without success to get authorities to investigate whether the former NFL player's death amounted to a crime, according to documents obtained by The Associated Press.
ADVERTISEMENT

"The medical evidence did not match up with the, with the scenario as described," a doctor who examined Tillman's body after he was killed on the battlefield in Afghanistan in 2004 told investigators.

The doctors — whose names were blacked out — said that the bullet holes were so close together that it appeared the Army Ranger was cut down by an M-16 fired from a mere 10 yards or so away.

Ultimately, the Pentagon did conduct a criminal investigation, and asked Tillman's comrades whether he was disliked by his men and whether they had any reason to believe he was deliberately killed. The Pentagon eventually ruled that Tillman's death at the hands of his comrades was a friendly-fire accident.

The medical examiners' suspicions were outlined in 2,300 pages of testimony released to the AP this week by the Defense Department in response to a Freedom of Information Act request.

Among other information contained in the documents:

• In his last words moments before he was killed, Tillman snapped at a panicky comrade under fire to shut up and stop "sniveling."

• Army attorneys sent each other congratulatory e-mails for keeping criminal investigators at bay as the Army conducted an internal friendly-fire investigation that resulted in administrative, or non-criminal, punishments.

• The three-star general who kept the truth about Tillman's death from his family and the public told investigators some 70 times that he had a bad memory and couldn't recall details of his actions.

• No evidence at all of enemy fire was found at the scene — no one was hit by enemy fire, nor was any government equipment struck.

The Pentagon and the Bush administration have been criticized in recent months for lying about the circumstances of Tillman's death. The military initially told the public and the Tillman family that he had been killed by enemy fire. Only weeks later did the Pentagon acknowledge he was gunned down by fellow Rangers.

With questions lingering about how high in the Bush administration the deception reached, Congress is preparing for yet another hearing next week.

The Pentagon is separately preparing a new round of punishments, including a stinging demotion of retired Lt. Gen. Philip R. Kensinger Jr., 60, according to military officials who spoke on condition of anonymity because the punishments under consideration have not been made public.

In more than four hours of questioning by the Pentagon inspector general's office in December 2006, Kensinger repeatedly contradicted other officers' testimony, and sometimes his own. He said on some 70 occasions that he did not recall something.

At one point, he said: "You've got me really scared about my brain right now. I'm really having a problem."

Tillman's mother, Mary Tillman, who has long suggested that her son was deliberately killed by his comrades, said she is still looking for answers and looks forward to the congressional hearings next week.

"Nothing is going to bring Pat back. It's about justice for Pat and justice for other soldiers. The nation has been deceived," she said.

The documents show that a doctor who autopsied Tillman's body was suspicious of the three gunshot wounds to the forehead. The doctor said he took the unusual step of calling the Army's Human Resources Command and was rebuffed. He then asked an official at the Army's Criminal Investigation Division if the CID would consider opening a criminal case.

"He said he talked to his higher headquarters and they had said no," the doctor testified.

Also according to the documents, investigators pressed officers and soldiers on a question Mrs. Tillman has been asking all along.

"Have you, at any time since this incident occurred back on April 22, 2004, have you ever received any information even rumor that Cpl. Tillman was killed by anybody within his own unit intentionally?" an investigator asked then-Capt. Richard Scott.

Scott, and others who were asked, said they were certain the shooting was accidental.

Investigators also asked soldiers and commanders whether Tillman was disliked, whether anyone was jealous of his celebrity, or if he was considered arrogant. They said Tillman was respected, admired and well-liked.

The documents also shed new light on Tillman's last moments.

It has been widely reported by the AP and others that Spc. Bryan O'Neal, who was at Tillman's side as he was killed, told investigators that Tillman was waving his arms shouting "Cease fire, friendlies, I am Pat (expletive) Tillman, damn it!" again and again.

But the latest documents give a different account from a chaplain who debriefed the entire unit days after Tillman was killed.

The chaplain said that O'Neal told him he was hugging the ground at Tillman's side, "crying out to God, help us. And Tillman says to him, `Would you shut your (expletive) mouth? God's not going to help you; you need to do something for yourself, you sniveling ..."


Title: Re: PAT TILLMAN INTENTIONALLY GUNNED DOWN BY FELLOW RANGERS!
Post by: GonnaRuckYou on July 26, 2007, 10:18:28 PM
Thats some fucked up corrupt shit right there.
Title: Re: PAT TILLMAN INTENTIONALLY GUNNED DOWN BY FELLOW RANGERS!
Post by: gordiano on July 26, 2007, 10:26:47 PM
Unfucking real.............. >:(


His poor family...... :'(
Title: Re: PAT TILLMAN INTENTIONALLY GUNNED DOWN BY FELLOW RANGERS!
Post by: tommywishbone on July 26, 2007, 10:41:50 PM
I'm not too sure how smart it is, to talk trash to a man holding an M16. (If, the story is accurate)
Title: Re: PAT TILLMAN INTENTIONALLY GUNNED DOWN BY FELLOW RANGERS!
Post by: roc on July 26, 2007, 10:42:06 PM
wow that's great stuff you posted. president bush can't get out of his own way! i feel for the tillman family. who else is going to lie to them?
Title: Re: PAT TILLMAN INTENTIONALLY GUNNED DOWN BY FELLOW RANGERS!
Post by: Croatch on July 26, 2007, 10:52:26 PM
Our government...Epic Intergrity!!  haha
This is why you can never believe shit they tell you, such as the reasons for the Iraqi war, etc.  I'd rather live here than another country though, for sure.  #1 reason I would never join the military.  You'll be out lynching some brown people for a reason that is make believe...sounds great!
Title: Re: PAT TILLMAN INTENTIONALLY GUNNED DOWN BY FELLOW RANGERS!
Post by: Cleanest Natural on July 26, 2007, 11:55:41 PM
I'm not too sure how smart it is, to talk trash to a man holding an M16. (If, the story is accurate)
[/quote If u are afraid to put a girlie man in line for being a little b itch because he has a gun then why join the army?
Title: Re: PAT TILLMAN INTENTIONALLY GUNNED DOWN BY FELLOW RANGERS!
Post by: rockyfortune on July 27, 2007, 05:44:38 AM
i've been saying this from day one

people resented this guy for who he was...no one gave up millon dollar contracts to join up so no one gives a shit about the no name guys..but pat tillman became (or was portrayed by espn) as some fucking gi fucking joe american hero...it won't surprise me if he was fragged...
Title: Re: PAT TILLMAN INTENTIONALLY GUNNED DOWN BY FELLOW RANGERS!
Post by: HalloweenMan on July 27, 2007, 05:58:07 AM
what ranger unit still uses m-16s? 
which active army infantry unit still uses m-16's? 
none. 
also, i think there might be some truth to this, but random facts in there dont add up. 
Title: Re: PAT TILLMAN INTENTIONALLY GUNNED DOWN BY FELLOW RANGERS!
Post by: nycbull on July 27, 2007, 06:26:18 AM
i've been saying this from day one

people resented this guy for who he was...no one gave up millon dollar contracts to join up so no one gives a shit about the no name guys..but pat tillman became (or was portrayed by espn) as some fucking gi fucking joe american hero...it won't surprise me if he was fragged...

true, he probably went over there as some hero and was acting like he was in charge, telling people what to do, how they should act. They probably hated him for that. 
Title: Re: PAT TILLMAN INTENTIONALLY GUNNED DOWN BY FELLOW RANGERS!
Post by: delta9mda on July 27, 2007, 06:48:58 AM
what ranger unit still uses m-16s? 
which active army infantry unit still uses m-16's? 
none. 
also, i think there might be some truth to this, but random facts in there dont add up. 
they use the m4, same bullet 5.56mm.
Title: Re: PAT TILLMAN INTENTIONALLY GUNNED DOWN BY FELLOW RANGERS!
Post by: thewickedtruth on July 27, 2007, 06:58:00 AM
they use the m4, same bullet 5.56mm.
Yep. M4's...shooting .223's. Screamer of a bullet. Flat shooting and good penetration. Problem is they have no knock down power unless you plant 3 to the dome from 10 feet away apparenlty. Problem with the .223 is, they just punch holes in the targets and htey keep coming. Not a very smart choice IMHO for a MIL ISSUE WEAPON SYSTEM!
Title: Re: PAT TILLMAN INTENTIONALLY GUNNED DOWN BY FELLOW RANGERS!
Post by: jaejonna on July 27, 2007, 07:00:08 AM
Thats what happens when a millionaire guy is doing the 'army' thing for himself when he is surrounded by white trash and urban poor who have nothing else ...jealosy is a beeeaattch ..
Title: Re: PAT TILLMAN INTENTIONALLY GUNNED DOWN BY FELLOW RANGERS!
Post by: rockyfortune on July 27, 2007, 07:03:06 AM
Thats what happens when a millionaire guy is doing the 'army' thing for himself when he is surrounded by white trash and urban poor who have nothing else ...jealosy is a beeeaattch ..



being portrayed as he was...he stood out in the army..and the military doesn't like that shit...it's more about resentment than jealousy--i'm sure the commanders probably didn't give two shits about pat flippin' tillman as well as the regular soldiers. 
Title: Re: PAT TILLMAN INTENTIONALLY GUNNED DOWN BY FELLOW RANGERS!
Post by: chainsaw on July 27, 2007, 07:07:26 AM
I'm not too sure how smart it is, to talk trash to a man holding an M16. (If, the story is accurate)

He was a squadron leader.
Title: Re: PAT TILLMAN INTENTIONALLY GUNNED DOWN BY FELLOW RANGERS!
Post by: thewickedtruth on July 27, 2007, 07:09:43 AM
He was a squadron leader.

No shit. And they're rangers. They're supposed to be tough enough to handle a little lip from their SO. 
Title: Re: PAT TILLMAN INTENTIONALLY GUNNED DOWN BY FELLOW RANGERS!
Post by: chainsaw on July 27, 2007, 07:10:28 AM
what ranger unit still uses m-16s? 
which active army infantry unit still uses m-16's? 
none. 
also, i think there might be some truth to this, but random facts in there dont add up. 

When they say M16, they are referring to the .223 round I assume.  Like when they say steroids, and tell some non bodybuilder testosterone, they would never think test is what steroids are.
Title: Re: PAT TILLMAN INTENTIONALLY GUNNED DOWN BY FELLOW RANGERS!
Post by: chainsaw on July 27, 2007, 07:12:56 AM
No shit. And they're rangers. They're supposed to be tough enough to handle a little lip from their SO. 

exactly, they don't make them liked they used too. 
Title: Re: PAT TILLMAN INTENTIONALLY GUNNED DOWN BY FELLOW RANGERS!
Post by: thewickedtruth on July 27, 2007, 07:17:58 AM
exactly, they don't make them liked they used too. 

Ain't that the truth. I know it sounds like I'm talking shit about the military. I tried to join awhile back when the IRAQ war started. Figured I shouldn't be one of those people that bitched but weren't willing to do anything about it. Well they said my bp of 130/80 was too high to join and that I should be put on blood pressure meds. I had the cheif MO and two other doc's take it manually and they said I was fine but the machine that took it said I wasn't, so I was told to either jump through more hoops than a circus act or shine them on. I told them to shove it.

This kinda shit tough, makes you wonder what really went down. They talked tillman up big and to be canned like that would be bad press. So I'm sure that's what the cover up was for.

Title: Re: PAT TILLMAN INTENTIONALLY GUNNED DOWN BY FELLOW RANGERS!
Post by: rockyfortune on July 27, 2007, 07:25:32 AM
Ain't that the truth. I know it sounds like I'm talking shit about the military. I tried to join awhile back when the IRAQ war started. Figured I shouldn't be one of those people that bitched but weren't willing to do anything about it. Well they said my bp of 130/80 was too high to join and that I should be put on blood pressure meds. I had the cheif MO and two other doc's take it manually and they said I was fine but the machine that took it said I wasn't, so I was told to either jump through more hoops than a circus act or shine them on. I told them to shove it.

This kinda shit tough, makes you wonder what really went down. They talked tillman up big and to be canned like that would be bad press. So I'm sure that's what the cover up was for.





you should have found a new MEPS station...they all work differently...
Title: Re: PAT TILLMAN INTENTIONALLY GUNNED DOWN BY FELLOW RANGERS!
Post by: thewickedtruth on July 27, 2007, 07:31:56 AM


you should have found a new MEPS station...they all work differently...

You know at that point I didn't give a shit after my 3rd visit back.  ;D

I wonder what else will surface in this tillman case. If they'll publically make and example of someone or keep the guys underwraps.
Title: Re: PAT TILLMAN INTENTIONALLY GUNNED DOWN BY FELLOW RANGERS!
Post by: chainsaw on July 27, 2007, 07:41:31 AM
Ain't that the truth. I know it sounds like I'm talking shit about the military. I tried to join awhile back when the IRAQ war started. Figured I shouldn't be one of those people that bitched but weren't willing to do anything about it. Well they said my bp of 130/80 was too high to join and that I should be put on blood pressure meds. I had the cheif MO and two other doc's take it manually and they said I was fine but the machine that took it said I wasn't, so I was told to either jump through more hoops than a circus act or shine them on. I told them to shove it.

This kinda shit tough, makes you wonder what really went down. They talked tillman up big and to be canned like that would be bad press. So I'm sure that's what the cover up was for.


That machine did you a favor.
Title: Re: PAT TILLMAN INTENTIONALLY GUNNED DOWN BY FELLOW RANGERS!
Post by: thewickedtruth on July 27, 2007, 07:44:07 AM
That machine did you a favor.

You're not the first person to say that.  ;D
Title: Re: PAT TILLMAN INTENTIONALLY GUNNED DOWN BY FELLOW RANGERS!
Post by: HalloweenMan on July 27, 2007, 07:45:40 AM
Ain't that the truth. I know it sounds like I'm talking shit about the military. I tried to join awhile back when the IRAQ war started. Figured I shouldn't be one of those people that bitched but weren't willing to do anything about it. Well they said my bp of 130/80 was too high to join and that I should be put on blood pressure meds. I had the cheif MO and two other doc's take it manually and they said I was fine but the machine that took it said I wasn't, so I was told to either jump through more hoops than a circus act or shine them on. I told them to shove it.

This kinda shit tough, makes you wonder what really went down. They talked tillman up big and to be canned like that would be bad press. So I'm sure that's what the cover up was for.



my bp was higher than that when i joined.  140/85 and they just signed the paper and sent me to the next station.  like the other guy said, that machine did you the biggest favor of your life.  
also, i only mentioned the m-16 not being used anymore because its not used if you are in an infantry unit, much less a ranger batallion.  only pogue jobs national guard get those.  i know it shoots the same round, but if thats an official report, you think they would specify the type of round used and not say m-16 when those havent been used by frontline infantry unit in years, unless you are marines, then thats another story.  
Title: Re: PAT TILLMAN INTENTIONALLY GUNNED DOWN BY FELLOW RANGERS!
Post by: The Squadfather on July 27, 2007, 08:00:34 AM
AP: New details on Tillman's death

By MARTHA MENDOZA, AP National Writer

SAN FRANCISCO - Army medical examiners were suspicious about the close proximity of the three bullet holes in Pat Tillman's forehead and tried without success to get authorities to investigate whether the former NFL player's death amounted to a crime, according to documents obtained by The Associated Press.
ADVERTISEMENT

"The medical evidence did not match up with the, with the scenario as described," a doctor who examined Tillman's body after he was killed on the battlefield in Afghanistan in 2004 told investigators.

The doctors — whose names were blacked out — said that the bullet holes were so close together that it appeared the Army Ranger was cut down by an M-16 fired from a mere 10 yards or so away.

Ultimately, the Pentagon did conduct a criminal investigation, and asked Tillman's comrades whether he was disliked by his men and whether they had any reason to believe he was deliberately killed. The Pentagon eventually ruled that Tillman's death at the hands of his comrades was a friendly-fire accident.

The medical examiners' suspicions were outlined in 2,300 pages of testimony released to the AP this week by the Defense Department in response to a Freedom of Information Act request.

Among other information contained in the documents:

• In his last words moments before he was killed, Tillman snapped at a panicky comrade under fire to shut up and stop "sniveling."

• Army attorneys sent each other congratulatory e-mails for keeping criminal investigators at bay as the Army conducted an internal friendly-fire investigation that resulted in administrative, or non-criminal, punishments.

• The three-star general who kept the truth about Tillman's death from his family and the public told investigators some 70 times that he had a bad memory and couldn't recall details of his actions.

• No evidence at all of enemy fire was found at the scene — no one was hit by enemy fire, nor was any government equipment struck.

The Pentagon and the Bush administration have been criticized in recent months for lying about the circumstances of Tillman's death. The military initially told the public and the Tillman family that he had been killed by enemy fire. Only weeks later did the Pentagon acknowledge he was gunned down by fellow Rangers.

With questions lingering about how high in the Bush administration the deception reached, Congress is preparing for yet another hearing next week.

The Pentagon is separately preparing a new round of punishments, including a stinging demotion of retired Lt. Gen. Philip R. Kensinger Jr., 60, according to military officials who spoke on condition of anonymity because the punishments under consideration have not been made public.

In more than four hours of questioning by the Pentagon inspector general's office in December 2006, Kensinger repeatedly contradicted other officers' testimony, and sometimes his own. He said on some 70 occasions that he did not recall something.

At one point, he said: "You've got me really scared about my brain right now. I'm really having a problem."

Tillman's mother, Mary Tillman, who has long suggested that her son was deliberately killed by his comrades, said she is still looking for answers and looks forward to the congressional hearings next week.

"Nothing is going to bring Pat back. It's about justice for Pat and justice for other soldiers. The nation has been deceived," she said.

The documents show that a doctor who autopsied Tillman's body was suspicious of the three gunshot wounds to the forehead. The doctor said he took the unusual step of calling the Army's Human Resources Command and was rebuffed. He then asked an official at the Army's Criminal Investigation Division if the CID would consider opening a criminal case.

"He said he talked to his higher headquarters and they had said no," the doctor testified.

Also according to the documents, investigators pressed officers and soldiers on a question Mrs. Tillman has been asking all along.

"Have you, at any time since this incident occurred back on April 22, 2004, have you ever received any information even rumor that Cpl. Tillman was killed by anybody within his own unit intentionally?" an investigator asked then-Capt. Richard Scott.

Scott, and others who were asked, said they were certain the shooting was accidental.

Investigators also asked soldiers and commanders whether Tillman was disliked, whether anyone was jealous of his celebrity, or if he was considered arrogant. They said Tillman was respected, admired and well-liked.

The documents also shed new light on Tillman's last moments.

It has been widely reported by the AP and others that Spc. Bryan O'Neal, who was at Tillman's side as he was killed, told investigators that Tillman was waving his arms shouting "Cease fire, friendlies, I am Pat (expletive) Tillman, damn it!" again and again.

But the latest documents give a different account from a chaplain who debriefed the entire unit days after Tillman was killed.

The chaplain said that O'Neal told him he was hugging the ground at Tillman's side, "crying out to God, help us. And Tillman says to him, `Would you shut your (expletive) mouth? God's not going to help you; you need to do something for yourself, you sniveling ..."



epic non bodybuilding related propaganda and hype.
Title: Re: PAT TILLMAN INTENTIONALLY GUNNED DOWN BY FELLOW RANGERS!
Post by: thewickedtruth on July 27, 2007, 08:04:34 AM
epic non bodybuilding related propaganda and hype.

You really think a 2300 page document is all hype? C'mon man you aren't in the least bit skeptical?
Title: Re: PAT TILLMAN INTENTIONALLY GUNNED DOWN BY FELLOW RANGERS!
Post by: slaveboy1980 on July 27, 2007, 08:08:01 AM
chaos from within! chaos walks among the uniformed terrorists.
Title: Re: PAT TILLMAN INTENTIONALLY GUNNED DOWN BY FELLOW RANGERS!
Post by: The Squadfather on July 27, 2007, 08:10:18 AM
You really think a 2300 page document is all hype? C'mon man you aren't in the least bit skeptical?
who gives a shit, the clown was a dumb jock neanderthal meathead who stupidly passed up millions of bucks to "fight" for a greedy government who could give a shit less about him.
Title: Re: PAT TILLMAN INTENTIONALLY GUNNED DOWN BY FELLOW RANGERS!
Post by: thewickedtruth on July 27, 2007, 08:17:20 AM
who gives a shit, the clown was a dumb jock neanderthal meathead who stupidly passed up millions of bucks to "fight" for a greedy government who could give a shit less about him.

LOL good point. Though most would consider his motives selfless and courageous. He did show the typical person what a good soldier should appear to be and what it means to sacrifice things for what you believe in. Your'e right though, I'd have stuck it out for a few mil.
Title: Re: PAT TILLMAN INTENTIONALLY GUNNED DOWN BY FELLOW RANGERS!
Post by: Camel Jockey on July 27, 2007, 08:47:34 AM
Tillman wasn't a dumb jebus freak though.

He was an atheist and so is his family.

I guess he just got sucked into the goverment's bs.
Title: Re: PAT TILLMAN INTENTIONALLY GUNNED DOWN BY FELLOW RANGERS!
Post by: The Squadfather on July 27, 2007, 08:49:43 AM
Tillman wasn't a dumb jebus freak though.

He was an atheist and so is his family.

I guess he just got sucked into the goverment's bs.
he was a sawed off midget jackass, plain and simple, just another undersized guy with an ego too big for his body.
Title: Re: PAT TILLMAN INTENTIONALLY GUNNED DOWN BY FELLOW RANGERS!
Post by: Camel Jockey on July 27, 2007, 08:51:09 AM
he was a sawed off midget jackass, plain and simple, just another unsized guy with an ego too big for his body.

What will they call this?  ;D Chris Benior syndrome?

Maybe MattT will murder someone next, he is like 5'2" afterall.
Title: Re: PAT TILLMAN INTENTIONALLY GUNNED DOWN BY FELLOW RANGERS!
Post by: The Squadfather on July 27, 2007, 08:52:21 AM
What will they call this?  ;D Chris Benior syndrome?

Maybe MattT will murder someone next, he is like 5'2" afterall.
hahahaha, epic Napoleonic complex.
Title: Re: PAT TILLMAN INTENTIONALLY GUNNED DOWN BY FELLOW RANGERS!
Post by: Camel Jockey on July 27, 2007, 08:55:40 AM
hahahaha, epic Napoleonic complex.

Kiwiol is another one. Maybe he should go off to afghanistan with his mary band of samoan midgets?
Title: Re: PAT TILLMAN INTENTIONALLY GUNNED DOWN BY FELLOW RANGERS!
Post by: Livewire on July 27, 2007, 08:56:54 AM
Maybe MattT will murder someone next, he is like 5'2" afterall.

Title: Re: PAT TILLMAN INTENTIONALLY GUNNED DOWN BY FELLOW RANGERS!
Post by: The Squadfather on July 27, 2007, 08:57:11 AM
Kiwiol is another one. Maybe he should go off to afghanistan with his mary band of samoan midgets?
hahahaha, that little midget has some serious problems, kiwiol aka joey tito aka arvin avasu aka oracle is off his Lithium again. ;D
Title: Re: PAT TILLMAN INTENTIONALLY GUNNED DOWN BY FELLOW RANGERS!
Post by: Benny B on July 27, 2007, 09:04:47 AM
hahahaha, that little midget has some serious problems, kiwiol aka joey tito aka arvin avasu aka oracle is off his Lithium again. ;D
Shut up and have another twinkie, you fat fuck.  :D
Title: Re: PAT TILLMAN INTENTIONALLY GUNNED DOWN BY FELLOW RANGERS!
Post by: The Squadfather on July 27, 2007, 09:06:24 AM
Shut up and have another twinkie, you fat fuck.  :D
hahahaha, sounds like i got one of kiwiol's gimmicks upset. ;D
Title: Re: PAT TILLMAN INTENTIONALLY GUNNED DOWN BY FELLOW RANGERS!
Post by: Archer77 on July 27, 2007, 09:12:32 AM
It sounds strange to me simply because of the close proximity of the shooter.  Either a scared shitless solider was firing without thinking or something isn't right.  I have no idea but when the government goes through such a deliberate and thorough process of concealment it only fuels the conspiracy theorists even if what they say doesn't have merit.  As far as Tillman yelling at someone for spazing out, Touch Shit.  That kind of stuff happens in the military.
Title: Re: PAT TILLMAN INTENTIONALLY GUNNED DOWN BY FELLOW RANGERS!
Post by: Thin Lizzy on July 27, 2007, 10:04:48 AM
AP: New details on Tillman's death


• In his last words moments before he was killed, Tillman snapped at a panicky comrade under fire to shut up and stop "sniveling."


• No evidence at all of enemy fire was found at the scene — no one was hit by enemy fire, nor was any government equipment struck.



Seems to be a contradiction, here. They supposedly were under fire, but there was no evidence on the scene of this being the case.
Title: Re: PAT TILLMAN INTENTIONALLY GUNNED DOWN BY FELLOW RANGERS!
Post by: Benny B on July 27, 2007, 10:11:16 AM
hahahaha, sounds like i got one of kiwiol's gimmicks upset. ;D
Nobody's upset, you fat bastard. It just that no one wants to read your "fat boy rants" on issues where you are ill-informed and sound dumber than dirt.
In other words, shut your pie-hole.  :D
Title: Re: PAT TILLMAN INTENTIONALLY GUNNED DOWN BY FELLOW RANGERS!
Post by: Ex Coelis on July 27, 2007, 10:18:08 AM
pat tillman = hero

true story
Title: Re: PAT TILLMAN INTENTIONALLY GUNNED DOWN BY FELLOW RANGERS!
Post by: The_Leafy_Bug on July 27, 2007, 10:35:00 AM
AP: New details on Tillman's death

By MARTHA MENDOZA, AP National Writer

SAN FRANCISCO - Army medical examiners were suspicious about the close proximity of the three bullet holes in Pat Tillman's forehead and tried without success to get authorities to investigate whether the former NFL player's death amounted to a crime, according to documents obtained by The Associated Press.
ADVERTISEMENT

"The medical evidence did not match up with the, with the scenario as described," a doctor who examined Tillman's body after he was killed on the battlefield in Afghanistan in 2004 told investigators.

The doctors — whose names were blacked out — said that the bullet holes were so close together that it appeared the Army Ranger was cut down by an M-16 fired from a mere 10 yards or so away.

Ultimately, the Pentagon did conduct a criminal investigation, and asked Tillman's comrades whether he was disliked by his men and whether they had any reason to believe he was deliberately killed. The Pentagon eventually ruled that Tillman's death at the hands of his comrades was a friendly-fire accident.

The medical examiners' suspicions were outlined in 2,300 pages of testimony released to the AP this week by the Defense Department in response to a Freedom of Information Act request.

Among other information contained in the documents:

• In his last words moments before he was killed, Tillman snapped at a panicky comrade under fire to shut up and stop "sniveling."

• Army attorneys sent each other congratulatory e-mails for keeping criminal investigators at bay as the Army conducted an internal friendly-fire investigation that resulted in administrative, or non-criminal, punishments.

• The three-star general who kept the truth about Tillman's death from his family and the public told investigators some 70 times that he had a bad memory and couldn't recall details of his actions.

• No evidence at all of enemy fire was found at the scene — no one was hit by enemy fire, nor was any government equipment struck.

The Pentagon and the Bush administration have been criticized in recent months for lying about the circumstances of Tillman's death. The military initially told the public and the Tillman family that he had been killed by enemy fire. Only weeks later did the Pentagon acknowledge he was gunned down by fellow Rangers.

With questions lingering about how high in the Bush administration the deception reached, Congress is preparing for yet another hearing next week.

The Pentagon is separately preparing a new round of punishments, including a stinging demotion of retired Lt. Gen. Philip R. Kensinger Jr., 60, according to military officials who spoke on condition of anonymity because the punishments under consideration have not been made public.

In more than four hours of questioning by the Pentagon inspector general's office in December 2006, Kensinger repeatedly contradicted other officers' testimony, and sometimes his own. He said on some 70 occasions that he did not recall something.

At one point, he said: "You've got me really scared about my brain right now. I'm really having a problem."

Tillman's mother, Mary Tillman, who has long suggested that her son was deliberately killed by his comrades, said she is still looking for answers and looks forward to the congressional hearings next week.

"Nothing is going to bring Pat back. It's about justice for Pat and justice for other soldiers. The nation has been deceived," she said.

The documents show that a doctor who autopsied Tillman's body was suspicious of the three gunshot wounds to the forehead. The doctor said he took the unusual step of calling the Army's Human Resources Command and was rebuffed. He then asked an official at the Army's Criminal Investigation Division if the CID would consider opening a criminal case.

"He said he talked to his higher headquarters and they had said no," the doctor testified.

Also according to the documents, investigators pressed officers and soldiers on a question Mrs. Tillman has been asking all along.

"Have you, at any time since this incident occurred back on April 22, 2004, have you ever received any information even rumor that Cpl. Tillman was killed by anybody within his own unit intentionally?" an investigator asked then-Capt. Richard Scott.

Scott, and others who were asked, said they were certain the shooting was accidental.

Investigators also asked soldiers and commanders whether Tillman was disliked, whether anyone was jealous of his celebrity, or if he was considered arrogant. They said Tillman was respected, admired and well-liked.

The documents also shed new light on Tillman's last moments.

It has been widely reported by the AP and others that Spc. Bryan O'Neal, who was at Tillman's side as he was killed, told investigators that Tillman was waving his arms shouting "Cease fire, friendlies, I am Pat (expletive) Tillman, damn it!" again and again.

But the latest documents give a different account from a chaplain who debriefed the entire unit days after Tillman was killed.

The chaplain said that O'Neal told him he was hugging the ground at Tillman's side, "crying out to God, help us. And Tillman says to him, `Would you shut your (expletive) mouth? God's not going to help you; you need to do something for yourself, you sniveling ..."



How do you Bush supporters like that little piece of war time propoganda. Take an American football player and gun him down and make him into a hero. Same crap with that girl that was rescued. All staged. I am repulsed by the Republican party.
Title: Re: PAT TILLMAN INTENTIONALLY GUNNED DOWN BY FELLOW RANGERS!
Post by: Special Ed on July 27, 2007, 11:14:11 AM
Seems to be a contradiction, here. They supposedly were under fire, but there was no evidence on the scene of this being the case.
Good point Lizard. Why would Tillman be yelling at some sniveling grunt about taking fire if there was no enemy fire? Or at least, zero evidence of enemy fire.

We have a few military guys here...perhaps they can answer:

HAVE YOU EVER SEEN A SITUATION IN WHICH US SOLDIERS CONSPIRE TO INJURE/KILL A FELLOW SOLDIER AND BLAME IT ON ENEMY OR ACCIDENTAL FRIENDLY FIRE?
Title: Re: PAT TILLMAN INTENTIONALLY GUNNED DOWN BY FELLOW RANGERS!
Post by: chainsaw on July 27, 2007, 11:16:20 AM
Good point Lizard. Why would Tillman be yelling at some sniveling grunt about taking fire if there was no enemy fire? Or at least, zero evidence of enemy fire.

We have a few military guys here...perhaps they can answer:

HAVE YOU EVER SEEN A SITUATION IN WHICH US SOLDIERS CONSPIRE TO INJURE/KILL A FELLOW SOLDIER AND BLAME IT ON ENEMY OR ACCIDENTAL FRIENDLY FIRE?

I did in a movie once.  It was platoon I think
Title: Re: PAT TILLMAN INTENTIONALLY GUNNED DOWN BY FELLOW RANGERS!
Post by: chainsaw on July 27, 2007, 11:17:35 AM
It is called fratercide.  Killing of a soldier on you're own side. 
Title: Re: PAT TILLMAN INTENTIONALLY GUNNED DOWN BY FELLOW RANGERS!
Post by: Archer77 on July 27, 2007, 11:27:21 AM
Good point Lizard. Why would Tillman be yelling at some sniveling grunt about taking fire if there was no enemy fire? Or at least, zero evidence of enemy fire.

We have a few military guys here...perhaps they can answer:

HAVE YOU EVER SEEN A SITUATION IN WHICH US SOLDIERS CONSPIRE TO INJURE/KILL A FELLOW SOLDIER AND BLAME IT ON ENEMY OR ACCIDENTAL FRIENDLY FIRE?


I was in the military and I have never heard of it personally.  Fortunately I have never been under combat conditions of that kind.  If Tillman was killed intentionally then that would require intensive amounts of planning and collusion on the part of army personnel.  Its probably not unheard of.  I suspect its a lot like police officers who refuse to incriminate a fellow officer.  Or something like this...  http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSN2643274020070726  (short story, judge rules that fed withheld evidence in mob murder case which falsely imprisoned four people. The plaintiffs were awarded a hefty sum.)
Title: Re: PAT TILLMAN INTENTIONALLY GUNNED DOWN BY FELLOW RANGERS!
Post by: hifrommike on July 27, 2007, 11:31:22 AM
For testimony, maybe they can play, "We Both Reached for the Gun." 
Title: Re: PAT TILLMAN INTENTIONALLY GUNNED DOWN BY FELLOW RANGERS!
Post by: HUGEPECS on July 27, 2007, 11:31:31 AM
well, I'm glad to know that at least five people will no longer have a career in the military. Maybe there is more to come
Title: Re: PAT TILLMAN INTENTIONALLY GUNNED DOWN BY FELLOW RANGERS!
Post by: HUGEPECS on July 27, 2007, 11:37:39 AM
Good point Lizard. Why would Tillman be yelling at some sniveling grunt about taking fire if there was no enemy fire? Or at least, zero evidence of enemy fire.

We have a few military guys here...perhaps they can answer:

HAVE YOU EVER SEEN A SITUATION IN WHICH US SOLDIERS CONSPIRE TO INJURE/KILL A FELLOW SOLDIER AND BLAME IT ON ENEMY OR ACCIDENTAL FRIENDLY FIRE?



the movie "Platoon" is a good example
Title: Re: PAT TILLMAN INTENTIONALLY GUNNED DOWN BY FELLOW RANGERS!
Post by: War-Horse on July 27, 2007, 12:39:16 PM
War ,makes more War if its half assed.      Shock and awe.......lol.
Title: Re: PAT TILLMAN INTENTIONALLY GUNNED DOWN BY FELLOW RANGERS!
Post by: hifrommike on July 27, 2007, 12:54:12 PM
"Oh yes, oh yes, oh yes, they both
Oh yes, they both
Oh yes, they both reached for
The gun, the gun, the gun, the gun
Oh yes, they both reached for the gun
For the gun."
Title: Re: PAT TILLMAN INTENTIONALLY GUNNED DOWN BY FELLOW RANGERS!
Post by: sgt. d on July 27, 2007, 01:03:03 PM
Good point Lizard. Why would Tillman be yelling at some sniveling grunt about taking fire if there was no enemy fire? Or at least, zero evidence of enemy fire.

We have a few military guys here...perhaps they can answer:

HAVE YOU EVER SEEN A SITUATION IN WHICH US SOLDIERS CONSPIRE TO INJURE/KILL A FELLOW SOLDIER AND BLAME IT ON ENEMY OR ACCIDENTAL FRIENDLY FIRE?

 ::)
Title: Re: PAT TILLMAN INTENTIONALLY GUNNED DOWN BY FELLOW RANGERS!
Post by: Camel Jockey on July 27, 2007, 01:06:33 PM
How do you Bush supporters like that little piece of war time propoganda. Take an American football player and gun him down and make him into a hero. Same crap with that girl that was rescued. All staged. I am repulsed by the Republican party.

The story of Jessica Lynch where he supposedly emptied an entire ammo clip.. ahahaha

She said herself it was all bs and didn't why the the army would lie like that.
Title: Re: PAT TILLMAN INTENTIONALLY GUNNED DOWN BY FELLOW RANGERS!
Post by: Al-Gebra on July 27, 2007, 01:08:41 PM
. . . Jessica Lynch

   . . .

I'd hit it.  two times.


Title: Re: PAT TILLMAN INTENTIONALLY GUNNED DOWN BY FELLOW RANGERS!
Post by: HalloweenMan on July 27, 2007, 01:08:50 PM
The story of Jessica Lynch where he supposedly emptied an entire ammo clip.. ahahaha

She said herself it was all bs and didn't why the the army would lie like that.

jessica lynch.  american coward.  weapon jammed because she didnt clean it.  hid under a truck until caught.  wow.  a real brave here huh?   ::)
Title: Re: PAT TILLMAN INTENTIONALLY GUNNED DOWN BY FELLOW RANGERS!
Post by: Camel Jockey on July 27, 2007, 01:10:44 PM
I'd hit it.  two times.





I'd lick her blonde bush.. Bet it was stinky after being out in the desert for so long..  :o

Title: Re: PAT TILLMAN INTENTIONALLY GUNNED DOWN BY FELLOW RANGERS!
Post by: Al-Gebra on July 27, 2007, 01:12:41 PM

I'd lick her blonde bush.. Bet it was stinky after being out in the desert for so long..  :o



she shaved it once she decided she liked being an attention whore in the limelight.
Title: Re: PAT TILLMAN INTENTIONALLY GUNNED DOWN BY FELLOW RANGERS!
Post by: Camel Jockey on July 27, 2007, 01:19:42 PM
she shaved it once she decided she liked being an attention whore in the limelight.

the government milked her.. They are to blame more than some chick who joined the army(a hot one at that).
Title: Re: PAT TILLMAN INTENTIONALLY GUNNED DOWN BY FELLOW RANGERS!
Post by: Al-Gebra on July 27, 2007, 01:21:02 PM
the government milked her.. They are to blame more than some chick who joined the army(a hot one at that).

there is such a thing as "just saying no."
Title: Re: PAT TILLMAN INTENTIONALLY GUNNED DOWN BY FELLOW RANGERS!
Post by: Camel Jockey on July 27, 2007, 01:23:20 PM
there is such a thing as "just saying no."

A hot chick that joined the army.. She's not right in the head to begin with.
Title: Re: PAT TILLMAN INTENTIONALLY GUNNED DOWN BY FELLOW RANGERS!
Post by: Al-Gebra on July 27, 2007, 01:25:04 PM
A hot chick that joined the army.. She's not right in the head to begin with.

there's quite a few hotties that join up, actually.  ;D  very good for the R&R front.
Title: Re: PAT TILLMAN INTENTIONALLY GUNNED DOWN BY FELLOW RANGERS!
Post by: Benny B on July 27, 2007, 01:25:46 PM
Jessica Lynch...not particularly hot.  :-\
Title: Re: PAT TILLMAN INTENTIONALLY GUNNED DOWN BY FELLOW RANGERS!
Post by: rockyfortune on July 27, 2007, 07:06:49 PM


the movie "Platoon" is a good example


it's called fragging a guy....there are two or three documented cases of it in iraq and afghanistan..it's real...and it happens.
Title: Re: PAT TILLMAN INTENTIONALLY GUNNED DOWN BY FELLOW RANGERS!
Post by: Special Ed on July 27, 2007, 07:43:47 PM
The shame is that the military needs guys like Tillman, with a sense of honor and country, and instead is filled with a bunch of sorry-ass redneck losers who despised a real leader like Tillman solely because they had nothing in common with him. They couldn't handle taking orders from an NFL millionaire because they probably hated his "American Hero" label that he never asked for.

Tillman's naivete was ultimately his undoing. He thought he could make a difference in the war, in the battle, and in the trenches the same way he made a difference on the football field.  But he probably never realized that unlike his NFL teammates, his fellow soldiers would resent him, not respect him.

Truly a waste of a man's life. RIP PAT.

(http://www.truthdig.com/images/eartothegrounduploads/kevin_pat_350.jpg)
Title: Re: PAT TILLMAN INTENTIONALLY GUNNED DOWN BY FELLOW RANGERS!
Post by: SirTraps on July 27, 2007, 08:07:11 PM
How in the fuck do you even know what happened ? Maybe a Mexican shot him  ::) 
Title: Re: PAT TILLMAN INTENTIONALLY GUNNED DOWN BY FELLOW RANGERS!
Post by: Cleanest Natural on July 27, 2007, 10:37:22 PM
The shame is that the military needs guys like Tillman, with a sense of honor and country, and instead is filled with a bunch of sorry-ass redneck losers who despised a real leader like Tillman solely because they had nothing in common with him. They couldn't handle taking orders from an NFL millionaire because they probably hated his "American Hero" label that he never asked for.

Tillman's naivete was ultimately his undoing. He thought he could make a difference in the war, in the battle, and in the trenches the same way he made a difference on the football field.  But he probably never realized that unlike his NFL teammates, his fellow soldiers would resent him, not respect him.

Truly a waste of a man's life. RIP PAT.

(http://www.truthdig.com/images/eartothegrounduploads/kevin_pat_350.jpg)
Very well put...Truly sad story
Title: Re: PAT TILLMAN INTENTIONALLY GUNNED DOWN BY FELLOW RANGERS!
Post by: Benny B on July 27, 2007, 10:39:41 PM
How in the fuck do you even know what happened ? Maybe a Mexican shot him  ::) 
Did you even read the first post of this thread?  ::)
Idiot.
Title: Re: PAT TILLMAN INTENTIONALLY GUNNED DOWN BY FELLOW RANGERS!
Post by: CARTEL on July 27, 2007, 10:48:24 PM
Sounds kind of fishy to me.

A special forces soldier is sniveling? I could see a regular old grunt doing that but not so much an Army Ranger.

Tillman should've joined the Marines.
Title: Re: PAT TILLMAN INTENTIONALLY GUNNED DOWN BY FELLOW RANGERS!
Post by: Al-Gebra on July 28, 2007, 09:23:53 AM


Tillman's naivete was ultimately his undoing. He thought he could make a difference in the war, in the battle, and in the trenches the same way he made a difference on the football field.  But he probably never realized that unlike his NFL teammates, his fellow soldiers would resent him, not respect him.

Truly a waste of a man's life. RIP PAT.

(http://www.truthdig.com/images/eartothegrounduploads/kevin_pat_350.jpg)

the word "conclusory" springs to mind.
Title: Re: PAT TILLMAN INTENTIONALLY GUNNED DOWN BY FELLOW RANGERS!
Post by: Master Blaster on July 28, 2007, 10:14:00 AM
Let me see,

Man never landed on the moon, 9/11 was a conspiracy, we never found the man on the grassy knoll, and now Pat was executed by the sniveling "loser" fellow soldiers who all somehow lacked that special spark that only he possesed.  ::)

This is why it's impossible to eliminate religion. It's the sort of magical thinking that 99% of the population can not evolve beyond. The irony is that many of the people that cling to fantasies like these often claim to be "athiests", which is in its own way a sort of religion or "belief".

Epic, knuckle dragging logic, my cro-magnon chums, keep it up. Be sure to put in a good word with Santa for me when you see him, I hear he's bringing me coal again this year!  ;)
Title: Re: PAT TILLMAN INTENTIONALLY GUNNED DOWN BY FELLOW RANGERS!
Post by: Benny B on July 28, 2007, 10:56:13 AM
Let me see,

Man never landed on the moon, 9/11 was a conspiracy, we never found the man on the grassy knoll, and now Pat was executed by the sniveling "loser" fellow soldiers who all somehow lacked that special spark that only he possesed.  ::)

This is why it's impossible to eliminate religion. It's the sort of magical thinking that 99% of the population can not evolve beyond. The irony is that many of the people that cling to fantasies like these often claim to be "athiests", which is in its own way a sort of religion or "belief".

Epic, knuckle dragging logic, my cro-magnon chums, keep it up. Be sure to put in a good word with Santa for me when you see him, I hear he's bringing me coal again this year!  ;)
Explain the three bullets in Tillman's head shot from point-blank range and get back to us.  You are obviously SO much smarter than these "conspiracy theorists". ::)
Keep sippin' the Bush Kool-Aid...idiot.
Title: Re: PAT TILLMAN INTENTIONALLY GUNNED DOWN BY FELLOW RANGERS!
Post by: CARTEL on July 28, 2007, 12:47:09 PM
Let me see,

Man never landed on the moon, 9/11 was a conspiracy, we never found the man on the grassy knoll, and now Pat was executed by the sniveling "loser" fellow soldiers who all somehow lacked that special spark that only he possesed.  ::)

This is why it's impossible to eliminate religion. It's the sort of magical thinking that 99% of the population can not evolve beyond. The irony is that many of the people that cling to fantasies like these often claim to be "athiests", which is in its own way a sort of religion or "belief".

Epic, knuckle dragging logic, my cro-magnon chums, keep it up. Be sure to put in a good word with Santa for me when you see him, I hear he's bringing me coal again this year!  ;)

LOL

That was pretty good.
Title: Re: PAT TILLMAN INTENTIONALLY GUNNED DOWN BY FELLOW RANGERS!
Post by: Master Blaster on July 28, 2007, 02:06:32 PM
Explain the three bullets in Tillman's head shot from point-blank range and get back to us.  You are obviously SO much smarter than these "conspiracy theorists". ::)
Keep sippin' the Bush Kool-Aid...idiot.

Hahahahaha. Explain tower 7, was that a controlled demolition?  :D
Title: Re: PAT TILLMAN INTENTIONALLY GUNNED DOWN BY FELLOW RANGERS!
Post by: rockyfortune on July 31, 2007, 12:16:58 PM
Good point Lizard. Why would Tillman be yelling at some sniveling grunt about taking fire if there was no enemy fire? Or at least, zero evidence of enemy fire.

We have a few military guys here...perhaps they can answer:

HAVE YOU EVER SEEN A SITUATION IN WHICH US SOLDIERS CONSPIRE TO INJURE/KILL A FELLOW SOLDIER AND BLAME IT ON ENEMY OR ACCIDENTAL FRIENDLY FIRE?



watch the movie Serpico....you'll see some big time conspiring to kill a fellow cop.
Title: Re: PAT TILLMAN INTENTIONALLY GUNNED DOWN BY FELLOW RANGERS!
Post by: amc1980 on July 31, 2007, 02:40:39 PM
I lolled at "snivelling grunt". Like Special Ed could pass RIP.