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Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: Colossus_500 on July 30, 2007, 07:57:26 AM
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Abortion clinic built under radar
Planned Parenthood to open Aurora site
By Bonnie Miller Rubin and James Kimberly
Tribune staff reporters
chicagotribune.com (http://chicagotribune.com)
July 27, 2007
Neighbors who drive by the bustling construction site in Aurora think they are seeing the completion of the "Gemini Health Center," just as the sign says. So do the painters, carpenters, electricians and other tradesmen who have been working on the project for the last eight months.
But in a few weeks the sign will be changed to reflect the true owners of the building: Planned Parenthood. At 22,000 square feet, this is among its larger facilities in the nation, providing a wide range of women's health services -- including abortions.
Growth in the counties Aurora straddles -- DuPage, Will, Kendall and Kane -- has created an intense need for more comprehensive and affordable women's health care. And while the majority of patients come to Planned Parenthood for birth control, testing for gynecological cancers or screening for sexually transmitted diseases, it is the abortions that have made this a stealth venture almost 35 years after Roe vs. Wade, which legalized abortion nationwide.
"Frankly, I'm surprised we were able to keep it a secret for so long," said Steve Trombley, president and chief executive officer of Planned Parenthood/Chicago Area, carefully avoiding a freshly painted wall as he offered a tour of the facility. "We didn't want anything to interfere with the opening ... and, at this point, I don't anticipate anything will stop that from happening."
The $7.5 million facility at 240 N. Oakhurst Drive, in DuPage County, adjacent to a Dominick's, is scheduled to open Sept. 18. In the planning stages since 2002, it is Planned Parenthood's first full-service site in the Chicago area in 20 years and the only one to perform abortions outside of a Near North Side Chicago location. Private donors contributed $5 million toward its construction.
It would be the only clinic performing abortions in Aurora; another clinic closed last year after its doctor retired.
As of Thursday, not a single protester had appeared on the scene. But even at this late date, anti-abortion activists vow to create some hurdles to abortion in Aurora.
"It is not going to be possible to stop construction," conceded Ann Scheidler, executive director of the Pro-Life Action League. "It's probably more a matter of damage control at this point."
Scheidler said the league is bringing to town the executive director of the anti-abortion group STOPP, which seeks to shutter Planned Parenthood, to a strategy meeting scheduled for Aug. 16.
Avoiding builder boycotts
That the clinic was kept hush-hush for so long was no accident. Planned Parenthood adopted the strategy after a 2004 boycott by contractors stalled work for two months on a clinic in Austin, Texas. The boycott, organized by a concrete contractor, pressured subcontractors with being blacklisted from future employment. The contractor ended up quitting the job, and Planned Parenthood acted as its own general contractor to finish the facility.
Still, the tactic was heralded as a new economic tool in the arsenal of abortion foes.
As in Austin, word of the Aurora clinic was leaked to anti-abortion forces by a contractor, Scheidler said.
"He knew there was a recovery room. It was obviously a surgery center of some sort. I guess the bullet-proof glass and all the security, the security cameras, made him concerned," she said.
Aurora Councilman Chris Beykirch, who represents that part of the city, said he learned that Planned Parenthood was building the clinic only last week. The property was zoned for a medical/office building, however, so the city could not have blocked construction -- not that it should have tried, he said. He said he was disappointed that the agency felt it was necessary to be secretive.
The project appears to be full-steam ahead. A staff of 24 -- answering "help wanted" ads for an unnamed clinic -- is being hired. The sleek cabinetry and faux wood floors are in place. The airy examining and recovery rooms are almost complete. It has a large conference room where the employees can meet with civic groups.
"We want to introduce ourselves to the community ... rather than be defined by our adversaries," Trombley said.
Kendall County is the nation's second-fastest-growing county, increasing by 62 percent from April 2000 to July 2006, according to U.S. Census Bureau data released last month. "This is a medically underserved area," Trombley said.
The full-service Chicago clinic is 35 miles away, a significant hurdle for Aurora's low-income and uninsured population.
"This is a conservative community -- but teens are very sexually active," said Wendy Fegenhols, who recently retired from the DuPage County Health Department and serves on the Illinois Caucus for Adolescent Health. "Anyone who is in contact with the school population recognizes the need."
While teen pregnancy rates have declined during the last decade, sexually transmitted infections -- specifically, chlamydia and HIV -- have steadily increased in DuPage, Kane, Will and Kendall Counties, according to state health officials.
Indeed, Planned Parenthood has opened three suburban "express" sites -- in Naperville, Schaumburg and Orland Park -- which mostly offer birth control and testing for sexually transmitted infections. The closest site to the new facility, in Naperville, logged more than 13,700 visits last year.
Foes plan protests
Planned Parenthood may have won the battle by building the Aurora clinic in secrecy, but the war is far from over, anti-abortion forces vowed. The Pro-Life Action League held a strategy session on the clinic Thursday and decided to begin picketing the site Aug. 22. The group intends to target not only the clinic, said Scheidler, but customers of nearby businesses as well.
"We will be out protesting with our ugly graphic pictures that everyone hates. People don't want to go shopping or go to the dentist with those pictures out there," Scheidler said.
Such tactics are precisely what have residents of the nearby Oakhurst subdivision concerned, said Homeowners Association President Jonathan Lack. The community of 2,200 homes -- more than half are single-family residences -- could best be described as "conservative and Republican."
He predicted that among residents, "very few people are going to be in the 'I don't care' camp. ...
"It is a lightening-rod issue for a lot of people on both sides of it," Lack said. "Having protesters on both sides does not really fit with the neighborhood aesthetic."
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Did you even read this story before you asked "Why hide it?"
They are trying to avoid problems from psychopath protesters. Like the ones described at the end. Or the builders who organized a labor blacklist.
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Did you even read this story before you asked "Why hide it?"
They are trying to avoid problems from psychopath protesters. Like the ones described at the end. Or the builders who organized a labor blacklist.
::)
Um........ Nevermind
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I'll clarify for you...
They're not hiding it because something is wrong with it...
they're hiding it because something is wrong with abortion protesters.
Get it now?
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I'll clarify for you...
They're not hiding it because something is wrong with it...
they're hiding it because something is wrong with abortion protesters.
Get it now?
Go just a little deeper and then we can talk, bro. You're still on the surface.
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Abortion clinic built under radar
Planned Parenthood to open Aurora site
By Bonnie Miller Rubin and James Kimberly
Tribune staff reporters
chicagotribune.com (http://chicagotribune.com)
July 27, 2007
Neighbors who drive by the bustling construction site in Aurora think they are seeing the completion of the "Gemini Health Center," just as the sign says. So do the painters, carpenters, electricians and other tradesmen who have been working on the project for the last eight months.
But in a few weeks the sign will be changed to reflect the true owners of the building: Planned Parenthood. At 22,000 square feet, this is among its larger facilities in the nation, providing a wide range of women's health services -- including abortions.
Growth in the counties Aurora straddles -- DuPage, Will, Kendall and Kane -- has created an intense need for more comprehensive and affordable women's health care. And while the majority of patients come to Planned Parenthood for birth control, testing for gynecological cancers or screening for sexually transmitted diseases, it is the abortions that have made this a stealth venture almost 35 years after Roe vs. Wade, which legalized abortion nationwide.
"Frankly, I'm surprised we were able to keep it a secret for so long," said Steve Trombley, president and chief executive officer of Planned Parenthood/Chicago Area, carefully avoiding a freshly painted wall as he offered a tour of the facility. "We didn't want anything to interfere with the opening ... and, at this point, I don't anticipate anything will stop that from happening."
The $7.5 million facility at 240 N. Oakhurst Drive, in DuPage County, adjacent to a Dominick's, is scheduled to open Sept. 18. In the planning stages since 2002, it is Planned Parenthood's first full-service site in the Chicago area in 20 years and the only one to perform abortions outside of a Near North Side Chicago location. Private donors contributed $5 million toward its construction.
It would be the only clinic performing abortions in Aurora; another clinic closed last year after its doctor retired.
As of Thursday, not a single protester had appeared on the scene. But even at this late date, anti-abortion activists vow to create some hurdles to abortion in Aurora.
"It is not going to be possible to stop construction," conceded Ann Scheidler, executive director of the Pro-Life Action League. "It's probably more a matter of damage control at this point."
Scheidler said the league is bringing to town the executive director of the anti-abortion group STOPP, which seeks to shutter Planned Parenthood, to a strategy meeting scheduled for Aug. 16.
Avoiding builder boycotts
That the clinic was kept hush-hush for so long was no accident. Planned Parenthood adopted the strategy after a 2004 boycott by contractors stalled work for two months on a clinic in Austin, Texas. The boycott, organized by a concrete contractor, pressured subcontractors with being blacklisted from future employment. The contractor ended up quitting the job, and Planned Parenthood acted as its own general contractor to finish the facility.
Still, the tactic was heralded as a new economic tool in the arsenal of abortion foes.
As in Austin, word of the Aurora clinic was leaked to anti-abortion forces by a contractor, Scheidler said.
"He knew there was a recovery room. It was obviously a surgery center of some sort. I guess the bullet-proof glass and all the security, the security cameras, made him concerned," she said.
Aurora Councilman Chris Beykirch, who represents that part of the city, said he learned that Planned Parenthood was building the clinic only last week. The property was zoned for a medical/office building, however, so the city could not have blocked construction -- not that it should have tried, he said. He said he was disappointed that the agency felt it was necessary to be secretive.
The project appears to be full-steam ahead. A staff of 24 -- answering "help wanted" ads for an unnamed clinic -- is being hired. The sleek cabinetry and faux wood floors are in place. The airy examining and recovery rooms are almost complete. It has a large conference room where the employees can meet with civic groups.
"We want to introduce ourselves to the community ... rather than be defined by our adversaries," Trombley said.
Kendall County is the nation's second-fastest-growing county, increasing by 62 percent from April 2000 to July 2006, according to U.S. Census Bureau data released last month. "This is a medically underserved area," Trombley said.
The full-service Chicago clinic is 35 miles away, a significant hurdle for Aurora's low-income and uninsured population.
"This is a conservative community -- but teens are very sexually active," said Wendy Fegenhols, who recently retired from the DuPage County Health Department and serves on the Illinois Caucus for Adolescent Health. "Anyone who is in contact with the school population recognizes the need."
While teen pregnancy rates have declined during the last decade, sexually transmitted infections -- specifically, chlamydia and HIV -- have steadily increased in DuPage, Kane, Will and Kendall Counties, according to state health officials.
Indeed, Planned Parenthood has opened three suburban "express" sites -- in Naperville, Schaumburg and Orland Park -- which mostly offer birth control and testing for sexually transmitted infections. The closest site to the new facility, in Naperville, logged more than 13,700 visits last year.
Foes plan protests
Planned Parenthood may have won the battle by building the Aurora clinic in secrecy, but the war is far from over, anti-abortion forces vowed. The Pro-Life Action League held a strategy session on the clinic Thursday and decided to begin picketing the site Aug. 22. The group intends to target not only the clinic, said Scheidler, but customers of nearby businesses as well.
"We will be out protesting with our ugly graphic pictures that everyone hates. People don't want to go shopping or go to the dentist with those pictures out there," Scheidler said.
Such tactics are precisely what have residents of the nearby Oakhurst subdivision concerned, said Homeowners Association President Jonathan Lack. The community of 2,200 homes -- more than half are single-family residences -- could best be described as "conservative and Republican."
He predicted that among residents, "very few people are going to be in the 'I don't care' camp. ...
"It is a lightening-rod issue for a lot of people on both sides of it," Lack said. "Having protesters on both sides does not really fit with the neighborhood aesthetic."
This is one shady organization. It seems like Planned Parenthood's sole mission is abortion on demand under any circumstances, regardless of age, etc.
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This is one shady organization. It seems like Planned Parenthood's sole mission is abortion on demand under any circumstances, regardless of age, etc.
yep
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This is one shady organization. It seems like Planned Parenthood's sole mission is abortion on demand under any circumstances, regardless of age, etc.
Really? It's not like they're an abortion provider or anything.
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Abortion is a great thing, we need more of it in America. I think it should be free and paid for by the taxpayers so every person can have access to it.
It isn't?`
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This is one shady organization. It seems like Planned Parenthood's sole mission is abortion on demand under any circumstances, regardless of age, etc.
Has it occurred to you that if Planned Parenthood was totally successful with its birth control mission abortion would be greatly reduced and marginalized b/c unwanted pregnancies would be decimated?
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Really? It's not like they're an abortion provider or anything.
looks like they are:
(from www.ppsp.org)
Letter to Patients:
Open Letter to Planned Parenthood Clients from Vanessa Cullins, MD, MPH, Vice President for Medical Affairs, Planned Parenthood Federation of America
April 18, 2007
Dear Planned Parenthood Patients,
Today the United States Supreme Court made a decision that will affect some second-trimester abortions at Planned Parenthood. (However, the abortion procedures provided by PPSP do not fall in this category.) This law does not take effect immediately.
Planned Parenthood is committed to the health and safety of our patients, and we will continue to provide high-quality care, including abortion services, to our patients. Our medical professionals and lawyers are analyzing today’s court decision, and we will let you know of any changes in abortion care once we have fully evaluated the situation.
No changes in the law have gone into effect at this time. If you have an appointment, you should still come in. When you come in for your appointment, you and your doctor will discuss your situation, his or her recommendations, and your options. The bottom line is that we can help you and we are here to answer your questions.
If you need to make an appointment, contact us at 1-800-230-PLAN. If you are in the process of undergoing an abortion or are scheduled for a follow-up visit, it is very important that you attend your next appointment. If you have any questions, please contact us at 1-800-230-PLAN or visit us online at www.plannedparenthood.or g.
I want to reassure you that abortion is still legal in this country, and that Planned Parenthood is here for you. If you are scheduled to visit one of our health centers, our doors will be open. You can depend on us.
For 90 years, Planned Parenthood has been a trusted health care provider — every year, nearly five million women, men, and teens rely on our reproductive health care, education, and information services. While we are very disappointed by today’s Supreme Court decision, we remain – as always – focused on providing you with high-quality reproductive health care.
--------------------------------------------
(from www.abortionfacts.com)
The Planned Parenthood Federation of America is one of over 90 national affiliates of the International Planned Parenthood Federation (London). It gets about two-thirds of its U.S. financing through tax money, local, state, and national. It has five regional offices, about 160 statewide affiliates, over 900 local clinics in the U.S. Over 70 of its clinics do abortions. Its total annual cash flow is almost one-half billion dollars ($472 million in 1995). It concentrates its efforts on abortion, contraception, and sex education.
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Really? It's not like they're an abortion provider or anything.
Their primary mission appears to be abortion under any circumstances. I guess you missed the threads talking about some of Planned Parenthood's fanatical abortion practices?
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Has it occurred to you that if Planned Parenthood was totally successful with its birth control mission abortion would be greatly reduced and marginalized b/c unwanted pregnancies would be decimated?
Their birth control mission is abortion at all costs. So, from that standpoint, they are indeed determined to reduced unwanted pregnancies.
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looks like they are:
I was being sarcastic. They make no secret about being an abortion clinic... at least, after the buildings are built, they don't.
My point was that Beach Bum called them a "shady organization" for providing a service that they are very upfront about providing.
Their primary mission appears to be abortion under any circumstances. I guess you missed the threads talking about some of Planned Parenthood's fanatical abortion practices?
Their mission is not abortion under any circumstances. It's providing abortion to those who seek them. I've seen reports from people who've tried to portray them as fanatical and, for the most part, they've been overblown and off base.
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Their birth control mission is abortion at all costs. So, from that standpoint, they are indeed determined to reduced unwanted pregnancies.
I don't believe that "abortion at all costs" is the birth control mission of Planned Parenthood.
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Al and Decker, for your reading and listening pleasure: http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=149350.0
They can say whatever they want in their mission statement, but their actions show they are all about abortion at all costs, regardless of age, the parents, etc.
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Al and Decker, for your reading and listening pleasure: http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=149350.0
They can say whatever they want in their mission statement, but their actions show they are all about abortion at all costs, regardless of age, the parents, etc.
The law is the law. Abortion is not illegal. Parental consent is only required where the state has passed mandatory parental involvement laws.
Planned Parenthood offers birth control and family planning based on the premise that the woman is the captain of her own body. They also don't mince words when the rubber hits the road on pregnancy--women 15-45 are welcome to use PP's resources to avoid unwanted pregnancies. They can do it the easy and fun way--birth control--or the gruesome way--abortion.
If all goes well, then abortion will not be necessary b/c birth control will be used properly.
As for the video where the operators have a 'don't ask, don't tell policy' choosing to treat the lady for birth control instead of taking on the whole statutory rape question, they are doing their jobs. That's all.
It doesn't mean I like it. Nor do I like abortion. But many many women believe that they decide the fate of their own bodies. End of argument.
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But many many women believe that they decide the fate of their own bodies. End of argument.
Therein lies the crux of what I take issue with. Many, not all. This is wrong, even if it is the law. You know, there was a time where I couldn't vote because I wasn't considered a complete human being. It was the "law", but certainly you would agree that it was wrong, yes? This is no different.
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Therein lies the crux of what I take issue with. Many, not all. This is wrong, even if it is the law. You know, there was a time where I couldn't vote because I wasn't considered a complete human being. It was the "law", but certainly you would agree that it was wrong, yes? This is no different.
No, it's completely different. If the crux of what you take issue with is that "many, not all" feel a certain way, then I've got some devastating news for you- no one comes to a unanimous consensus on anything in this country... or anywhere else.
The argument that because there because one thing is legal but unethical means that everything you don't agree with is equitable is just weak. Abortion and Jim Crow laws aren't comparable.
And I could type some long assed response to the vids Beach Bum posted, but this from Decker's post:
As for the video where the operators have a 'don't ask, don't tell policy' choosing to treat the lady for birth control instead of taking on the whole statutory rape question, they are doing their jobs. That's all.
...pretty much sums it up. Abortion is legal, but so many municipalities have come up with trivialities to make it inconvenient. If you are anti-abortion, then those bulwarks are great. If you're pro-choice, then they make no sense. If you work at PP, you're pro-choice. I don't see a problem with them trying to avoid wading into what is truly just bureaucratic bullshit.
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The law is the law. Abortion is not illegal. Parental consent is only required where the state has passed mandatory parental involvement laws.
Planned Parenthood offers birth control and family planning based on the premise that the woman is the captain of her own body. They also don't mince words when the rubber hits the road on pregnancy--women 15-45 are welcome to use PP's resources to avoid unwanted pregnancies. They can do it the easy and fun way--birth control--or the gruesome way--abortion.
If all goes well, then abortion will not be necessary b/c birth control will be used properly.
As for the video where the operators have a 'don't ask, don't tell policy' choosing to treat the lady for birth control instead of taking on the whole statutory rape question, they are doing their jobs. That's all.
It doesn't mean I like it. Nor do I like abortion. But many many women believe that they decide the fate of their own bodies. End of argument.
Did you listen to those clips? Planned Parenthood doesn't care about the law. They encourage minors to get abortions without their parents' knowledge regardless of what the law says. They encourage minors to lie about their boyfriends' ages to get abortions. Those clips have recorded conversations from all across the country.
A woman is the captain of her own body, but that's only part of the equation. When she gets pregnant, there are two bodies involved. This is part of the problem with the abortion debate. Neither side completely acknowledges the woman's bodily integrity issue and the fact that abortion kills a baby. Another problem is you have a bunch of men deciding the issue for the most part.
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Therein lies the crux of what I take issue with. Many, not all. This is wrong, even if it is the law. You know, there was a time where I couldn't vote because I wasn't considered a complete human being. It was the "law", but certainly you would agree that it was wrong, yes? This is no different.
It is kind of different because you were being prevented from making a choice while women's choices are being preserved.
Let them take it up with their creator.
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No, it's completely different. If the crux of what you take issue with is that "many, not all" feel a certain way, then I've got some devastating news for you- no one comes to a unanimous consensus on anything in this country... or anywhere else.
The argument that because there because one thing is legal but unethical means that everything you don't agree with is equitable is just weak. Abortion and Jim Crow laws aren't comparable.
And I could type some long assed response to the vids Beach Bum posted, but this from Decker's post:
...pretty much sums it up. Abortion is legal, but so many municipalities have come up with trivialities to make it inconvenient. If you are anti-abortion, then those bulwarks are great. If you're pro-choice, then they make no sense. If you work at PP, you're pro-choice. I don't see a problem with them trying to avoid wading into what is truly just bureaucratic bullshit.
wrong again, bro. this is a very divisive issue. so it's not as clear about a woman's "right to choose" as you see it. the bigger picture of what i'm saying is that something that was once law, became illegal. it's feasible to see that the right to abortion can go the other way. why do you think folks on both sides of the issue are paying very close attention to see who the next replacement is for supreme court justice?
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No, my post was 100% accurate,once again. I pointed out in my post that this is a divisive issue, like most political issues tend to be. The fact that YOU don't agree with something, doesn't make it wrong. Many things that were once illegal are now legal-they are not all comparable to slavery.
Nowhere in my post did I say that it came down to a woman's right to choose. What it does come down to is the fact that the services PP provides are legal, as of right now.
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What it does come down to is the fact that the services PP provides are legal, as of right now.
That's debatable. Is it against the law to encourage a minor to lie so she can get an abortion and to intentionally ignore the fact she has been raped solely so you can perform an abortion? If not, it should be.
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That's debatable. Is it against the law to encourage a minor to lie so she can get an abortion and to intentionally ignore the fact she has been raped solely so you can perform an abortion? If not, it should be.
If you see a TV commercial promoting a drive through abortion then you might have a case for encouragement. Otherwise there is no encouragement happening other then informing people the PP office exists.
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If you see a TV commercial promoting a drive through abortion then you might have a case for encouragement. Otherwise there is no encouragement happening other then informing people the PP office exists.
Watch the two youtube clips and tell me they don't smack of illegality (or at least something that should be illegal): http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=149350.0
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Watch the two youtube clips and tell me they don't smack of illegality (or at least something that should be illegal): http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=149350.0
Both videos reminded me of those 9/11 truth vids with all the drama.
the fist vid i could understand what they were saying and the second vid at least had text until 2:38 into it when it was turnign into a music vid and i stopped it.
Here's the thing:
PP isn't encouraging abortions but the person in the Santa Monica office was.
Is PP publically encouraging abortions? I don't see them doing it.
the problem with the PP employees is that when a person comes in for an abortion they are bound to ask questions and look for direction.
Are there clear cut laws and guideline addressing these things?
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It is kind of different because you were being prevented from making a choice while women's choices are being preserved.
Let them take it up with their creator.
I think Mother Teresa said it best when she said: "if we accept that a mother can kill even her own child, how can we tell other people not to kill one another?”
I think those who are pro choice fail to deal with the reality of what we are silencing amid the noise of our "rights" - a phrase from Ravi Zacharias of which I whole-heartedly agree with.
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No, my post was 100% accurate,once again. I pointed out in my post that this is a divisive issue, like most political issues tend to be. The fact that YOU don't agree with something, doesn't make it wrong. Many things that were once illegal are now legal-they are not all comparable to slavery.
Nowhere in my post did I say that it came down to a woman's right to choose. What it does come down to is the fact that the services PP provides are legal, as of right now.
If an issue is as divisive as we both agree it is, then how is it just about me? :-\
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Both videos reminded me of those 9/11 truth vids with all the drama.
the fist vid i could understand what they were saying and the second vid at least had text until 2:38 into it when it was turnign into a music vid and i stopped it.
Here's the thing:
PP isn't encouraging abortions but the person in the Santa Monica office was.
Is PP publically encouraging abortions? I don't see them doing it.
the problem with the PP employees is that when a person comes in for an abortion they are bound to ask questions and look for direction.
Are there clear cut laws and guideline addressing these things?
lol. Noooo. Not the 911 CT videos. :) No comparison IMO. These are actual calls, not hypothetical missiles hitting the Pentagon or holograms used to fake the planes hitting the WTC.
The first call on the second link was a girl aged 13 being told that she should not mention that the father of her baby is 22. That was in Colorado. Those same calls are repeated all across the country. I don't know if there are clear cut laws addressing this, but there should be. Regardless of what the law is, this is just wrong. This is partly why I conclude PP is all about abortion under any circumstances at whatever cost.
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I think Mother Teresa said it best when she said: "if we accept that a mother can kill even her own child, how can we tell other people not to kill one another?”
I think those who are pro choice fail to deal with the reality of what we are silencing amid the noise of our "rights" - a phrase from Ravi Zacharias of which I whole-heartedly agree with.
I don't disagree with with both those quotes, but i still believe it's the mother's right to chose and she can take it up with GOD. however, we can tell people to stop killing each other and still allow a mother to choose.
What's funny about what she said is that most libs who support freedom of choice are very much against war while those who believe it is killing and should be outlawed usually support military action to solve problems.
I think it shows just how screwed up we are.
But that's good news in the long term idea of things.
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lol. Noooo. Not the 911 CT videos. :) No comparison IMO. These are actual calls, not hypothetical missiles hitting the Pentagon or holograms used to fake the planes hitting the WTC.
The first call on the second link was a girl aged 13 being told that she should not mention that the father of her baby is 22. That was in Colorado. Those same calls are repeated all across the country. I don't know if there are clear cut laws addressing this, but there should be. Regardless of what the law is, this is just wrong. This is partly why I conclude PP is all about abortion under any circumstances at whatever cost.
For someone to even work at an abortion clinic they would have to be pro-abortion. They have reasons why they feel the way they do and i believe if you or i had to walk in their shoes we'd might see it different. But there is now way you or can ever do that no matter how much we claim we could.
You can't expect anyone NOT to voice their opinion when asked.
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If an issue is as divisive as we both agree it is, then how is it just about me? :-\
It becomes about you when you start a thread questioning its morality. When you begin projecting your own moral proclivities onto other's motivations (despite all evidence suggesting that not to be the case), then it's about you.
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That's debatable. Is it against the law to encourage a minor to lie so she can get an abortion and to intentionally ignore the fact she has been raped solely so you can perform an abortion? If not, it should be.
Why? Police advise criminals of their rights to avoid self incrimination and when anyone visits a health care provider, they usually have an expectation of privacy in regards to patient/client priv. I think it's actually pretty responsible to warn these girls that that won't be the case.
Even though the word "statutory rape" has an almost visceral connotation, it's a complicated matter, even among prosecutors.
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It becomes about you when you start a thread questioning its morality. When you begin projecting your own moral proclivities onto other's motivations (despite all evidence suggesting that not to be the case), then it's about you.
I see the point you are trying to make, bro. But most assuredly, you don't believe that I am the only one on this board who has a strong tendency towards protecting the unborn child. Even those who are on both sides of the issue are close in agreement that we are talking about a human being. I use the word "divisive" to mean polarizing, in the sense that there are many on both sides of the issue. That's where I'm coming from. But I understand where you were going with it.
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Why? Police advise criminals of their rights to avoid self incrimination and when anyone visits a health care provider, they usually have an expectation of privacy in regards to patient/client priv. I think it's actually pretty responsible to warn these girls that that won't be the case.
Even though the word "statutory rape" has an almost visceral connotation, it's a complicated matter, even among prosecutors.
I think it's irresponsible to counsel a child to lie about being raped so she can get an abortion. It ought to be illegal.
I don't think "statutory rape" is complicated. Minors cannot consent to sex. That's pretty simple. I've raised 13 year-old girls and they are not ready for sex and do not appreciate all of the ramifications involved with having sex. That's why the age of consent is over 13 everywhere in this country. A 22-year-old man who has sex with a 13-year-old girl needs to go to jail.
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I bet if ultrasounds were made to be mandatory, we'd see the numbers of abortions in this country drop tremendously. The "shadiness" that I think Beach Bum was trying to depict with Planned Parenthood is solidified when you hear about some places offering "discounts" for visits.
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I bet if ultrasounds were made to be mandatory, we'd see the numbers of abortions in this country drop tremendously. The "shadiness" that I think Beach Bum was trying to depict with Planned Parenthood is solidified when you hear about some places offering "discounts" for visits.
that's not shady. You are trying to make it do-able for people to get abortions that can't afford it and prevent unwanted babies flooding the foster care system.
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that's not shady. You are trying to make it do-able for people to get abortions that can't afford it and prevent unwanted babies flooding the foster care system.
It is when the discount is for your "next" visit.
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It is when the discount is for your "next" visit.
?? i don't get it....what do you mean?
Would anyone who offers discounts on goods and services be considered shady for do it?
Abortion IS legal and offering a discount is legal also.
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?? i don't get it....what do you mean?
Would anyone who offers discounts on goods and services be considered shady for do it?
Abortion IS legal and offering a discount is legal also.
My mistake, it's $20 off on the first visit: www.illinoisabortion.com/abortion.html (http://www.illinoisabortion.com/abortion.html)
I hear what you're saying, OzmO. Yes, abortion is legal, but you have to agree that what is the law of the land is not always equivolent the law of morality. Yes?
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My mistake, it's $20 off on the first visit: www.illinoisabortion.com/abortion.html (http://www.illinoisabortion.com/abortion.html)
I hear what you're saying, OzmO. Yes, abortion is legal, but you have to agree that what is the law of the land is not always equivolent the law of morality. Yes?
Sure, you can make that argument. Then you'd also have to agree that what you consider moral isn't always equivalent to what others consider moral, don't you?
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My mistake, it's $20 off on the first visit: www.illinoisabortion.com/abortion.html (http://www.illinoisabortion.com/abortion.html)
I hear what you're saying, OzmO. Yes, abortion is legal, but you have to agree that what is the law of the land is not always equivolent the law of morality. Yes?
i agree. Morals however differ with people and laws are set up so that a society can accommodate and respect other people's morals. The gray area here is that we are talking about murdering a child before it's born and the line for me lies in an act that produces a victim. the question is, is at what time does a fetus become a baby?
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Sure, you can make that argument. Then you'd also have to agree that what you consider moral isn't always equivalent to what others consider moral, don't you?
Hence, the divisiveness that I've been speaking of.
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i agree. Morals however differ with people and laws are set up so that a society can accommodate and respect other people's morals. The gray area here is that we are talking about murdering a child before it's born and the line for me lies in an act that produces a victim. the question is, is at what time does a fetus become a baby?
I personally never knew what the answer to your question was....until the day I say my first child at a mere 6-8 wks. Nothing but spuds sprouting for arms and legs, but MOST ASSUREDLY a heartbeat. Man, I connected immediately with that heartbeat. OzmO, it wasn't real to me that I was going to become a father until I saw that heartbeat. I mean, this "fetus" had a heartbeat, which meant it was the beginnings of becoming a human being, the same person I hug and kiss every day when I leave for work, or come home years later. It's just my thought on that. I know others see it differently.
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Hence, the divisiveness that I've been speaking of.
That was my point. You are asking these questions without acknowledging the divisiveness, ignoring the fact that others feel differently than you.
I don't think there is anything wrong with abortion.
You have the right to believe it is immoral. You have the right to believe it should be illegal. You have the right to fight to try to make it illegal as long as your actions remain within the bounds of the law.
I just think it makes you sound rather simple when you make conclusions about OTHER people's thoughts and motivations based on how you feel about something when it is clear they feel completely differently.
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I personally never knew what the answer to your question was....until the day I say my first child at a mere 6-8 wks. Nothing but spuds sprouting for arms and legs, but MOST ASSUREDLY a heartbeat. Man, I connected immediately with that heartbeat. OzmO, it wasn't real to me that I was going to become a father until I saw that heartbeat. I mean, this "fetus" had a heartbeat, which meant it was the beginnings of becoming a human being, the same person I hug and kiss every day when I leave for work, or come home years later. It's just my thought on that. I know others see it differently.
I have 2 children. I know exactly what you mean. before my first one was born, when i saw the sonogram (sp), i became anti-abortion. I believe it's a form of murder to abort a child. If it were that simple I'd vote against abortion. Unfortunately it's not.
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That was my point. You are asking these questions without acknowledging the divisiveness, ignoring the fact that others feel differently than you.
I don't think there is anything wrong with abortion.
You have the right to believe it is immoral. You have the right to believe it should be illegal. You have the right to fight to try to make it illegal as long as your actions remain within the bounds of the law.
I just think it makes you sound rather simple when you make conclusions about OTHER people's thoughts and motivations based on how you feel about something when it is clear they feel completely differently.
I give up, bro. You're right...it's a divisive issue.
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I have 2 children. I know exactly what you mean. before my first one was born, when i saw the sonogram (sp), i became anti-abortion. I believe it's a form of murder to abort a child. If it were that simple I'd vote against abortion. Unfortunately it's not.
It's the most amazing thing, isn't it? To see a life at it's beginning stages? :) That's why I was saying that if ultrasounds were mandatory before abortions were given, we'd see the numbers go down.
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Connecticut Planned Parenthood Did Abortion in Sexual Abuse Coverup
by Steven Ertelt
LifeNews.com (http://LifeNews.com) Editor
August 2, 2007
Hartford, CT (LifeNews.com (http://LifeNews.com)) -- Police investigating a kidnapping and sexual abuse case in Connecticut have confirmed that a Planned Parenthood abortion business did an abortion on a 15 year-old girl who is the victim. The news is the latest in a string of cases across the country where abortions have been used to cover up cases of sexual abuse.
Authorities say the unnamed girl ran away from home last June to live with 41 year-old Adam Gault, who has plead guilty to a variety of charges in connection with the kidnapping and alleged sexual abuse.
After getting her pregnant, Gault reportedly took the girl to a Planned Parenthood in West Hartford where she had an abortion.
The girl would not tell abortion facility officials the name of the father. But now, according to an AP report, police say they have obtained the remains of the baby and DNA obtained form the unborn child matches Gault's DNA.
Planned Parenthood did not appear to report the 15 year-old pregnancy or her desire for an abortion to officials to look into the possibility she was sexually abused.
Police had been searching for the girl for some time and didn't stumble across her until they searched Gault's home over a month after the abortion.
Gault's attorney, Gerald Klein, told the Associated Press he was surprised to learn of the DNA and the match police found in the testing.
I thought that when a woman had a termination of pregnancy, that that was the end of it, so to speak," Klein said outside court. "But, apparently, they have the fetus."
Planned Parenthood and other abortion businesses in various states have come under fire for not reporting cases of sexual abuse or statutory rape to authorities.
In May, the employee of another Connecticut abortion business took an underage girl there for an abortion to hide his actions.
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Hello, OzmO? ;D
It is kind of different because you were being prevented from making a choice while women's choices are being preserved.
Let them take it up with their creator.
I believe that it is not different, because you are preventing an unborn child, a defenseless human being from making a choice to live.
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Connecticut Planned Parenthood Did Abortion in Sexual Abuse Coverup
by Steven Ertelt
LifeNews.com (http://LifeNews.com) Editor
August 2, 2007
Hartford, CT (LifeNews.com (http://LifeNews.com)) -- Police investigating a kidnapping and sexual abuse case in Connecticut have confirmed that a Planned Parenthood abortion business did an abortion on a 15 year-old girl who is the victim. The news is the latest in a string of cases across the country where abortions have been used to cover up cases of sexual abuse.
Authorities say the unnamed girl ran away from home last June to live with 41 year-old Adam Gault, who has plead guilty to a variety of charges in connection with the kidnapping and alleged sexual abuse.
After getting her pregnant, Gault reportedly took the girl to a Planned Parenthood in West Hartford where she had an abortion.
The girl would not tell abortion facility officials the name of the father. But now, according to an AP report, police say they have obtained the remains of the baby and DNA obtained form the unborn child matches Gault's DNA.
Planned Parenthood did not appear to report the 15 year-old pregnancy or her desire for an abortion to officials to look into the possibility she was sexually abused.
Police had been searching for the girl for some time and didn't stumble across her until they searched Gault's home over a month after the abortion.
Gault's attorney, Gerald Klein, told the Associated Press he was surprised to learn of the DNA and the match police found in the testing.
I thought that when a woman had a termination of pregnancy, that that was the end of it, so to speak," Klein said outside court. "But, apparently, they have the fetus."
Planned Parenthood and other abortion businesses in various states have come under fire for not reporting cases of sexual abuse or statutory rape to authorities.
In May, the employee of another Connecticut abortion business took an underage girl there for an abortion to hide his actions.
Good grief. >:( How do they defend this?
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Good grief. >:( How do they defend this?
Does that say it's all about the money or what? >:(
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Does that say it's all about the money or what? >:(
It certainly does. It's about the money and abortion under any circumstance.
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It certainly does. It's about the money and abortion under any circumstance.
I don't see it that way.
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I don't see it that way.
How do you see it?
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It isn't as clear cut as you guys like to make out. If they reported these cases then no one would go to them for the abortion - they might even stick with a trusty wire coat hanger or some other means of covering up the evidence. Is that a more desirable state of affairs?
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How do you see it?
A lot like GCB sees it. I also think this case might prove to be a little more complicated than it appears. I am not a Planned Parenthood booster or anything- if they did something illegal, they should suffer the consequences- but I don't believe abortions are immoral, which just gives me a different perspective on these things.
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A lot like GCB sees it. I also think this case might prove to be a little more complicated than it appears. I am not a Planned Parenthood booster or anything- if they did something illegal, they should suffer the consequences- but I don't believe abortions are immoral, which just gives me a different perspective on these things.
You don't have to believe abortion is immoral to condemn Planned Parenthood. You could (like me) believe men who rape girls should be prosecuted and that an organization shouldn't encourage girls to lie about being raped, or fail to report rape. If Planned Parenthood actually reported rapists, perhaps these girls would be forced to talk to their parents about the abortion and the men who knocked them up would go to jail.
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You don't have to believe abortion is immoral to condemn Planned Parenthood. You could (like me) believe men who rape girls should be prosecuted and that an organization shouldn't encourage girls to lie about being raped, or fail to report rape. If Planned Parenthood actually reported rapists, perhaps these girls would be forced to talk to their parents about the abortion and the men who knocked them up would go to jail.
Why don't you try reading our posts - we never said men who rape girls shouldn't be prosecuted. You think you will solve something with your approach but all you will do is bury it deeper under the carpet. Try caring for the victims for a change instead of worrying about the dangerous people out there that will hurt you (or your family).
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Why don't you try reading our posts - we never said men who rape girls shouldn't be prosecuted. You think you will solve something with your approach but all you will do is bury it deeper under the carpet. Try caring for the victims for a change instead of worrying about the dangerous people out there that will hurt you (or your family).
I did read your posts. I don't think I will solve anything. I'm talking about Planned Parenthood's activities and what I disagree with.
If PP cared about the victim they would involve the victim's parents (when the victim is a child) and help punish the perpetrator. I see them as little more than an abortion mill. It appears to be all about the $$.
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That's fine except sometimes the perpetrator is a parent/family member or a person of high standing in the community. There is no way of knowing what parent involvement will accomplish. Some people would even resent the victim and somehow blame them - these situations can be complicated.
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That's fine except sometimes the perpetrator is a parent/family member or a person of high standing in the community. There is no way of knowing what parent involvement will accomplish. Some people would even resent the victim and somehow blame them - these situations can be complicated.
Why should it matter who the perpetrator is? If the guy is raping kids he needs to be locked up. It's actually more beneficial to the victim and potential future victims to get a rapist off the street.
We've debated/discussed this on here before, but I think parents should always be involved in every decision involving their child's medical procedures, including abortions.
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Why should it matter who the perpetrator is? If the guy is raping kids he needs to be locked up. It's actually more beneficial to the victim and potential future victims to get a rapist off the street.
We've debated/discussed this on here before, but I think parents should always be involved in every decision involving their child's medical procedures, including abortions.
It's beneficial assuming that the guy gets put away and that the victim is prepared to go to court. It is not necessarily what is best for the victim. I still don't agree that it is PPs job to police these things. A victim should have a place where they can go and get an abortion no questions asked - they've been through enough after all.
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It's beneficial assuming that the guy gets put away and that the victim is prepared to go to court. It is not necessarily what is best for the victim. I still don't agree that it is PPs job to police these things. A victim should have a place where they can go and get an abortion no questions asked - they've been through enough after all.
They don't have to "police" these things. They just need to report it. It's the law, just as it is when a child is brought into an emergency room and the doctor suspects abuse - the doctor is required by law to notify authorities.
Why should it matter who the perpetrator is? If the guy is raping kids he needs to be locked up. It's actually more beneficial to the victim and potential future victims to get a rapist off the street.
We've debated/discussed this on here before, but I think parents should always be involved in every decision involving their child's medical procedures, including abortions.
Good post, Beach.
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They don't have to "police" these things. They just need to report it. It's the law, just as it is when a child is brought into an emergency and the doctor suspects abuse - the doctor is required by law to notify authorities.
Good post, Beach.
Thanks. :)
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I did read your posts. I don't think I will solve anything. I'm talking about Planned Parenthood's activities and what I disagree with.
If PP cared about the victim they would involve the victim's parents (when the victim is a child) and help punish the perpetrator. I see them as little more than an abortion mill. It appears to be all about the $$.
What I was getting at, and what I think GCB was getting at, is that girls are often ashamed to admit to being raped. They also tend to keep any history of abortion secret.
In most cases, medical care comes with an expectation of confidentiality. I don't think there's anything wrong with PP warning girls about this.
If a girl comes to the clinic and A)believes she is in love with her 23 year old bf and has no desire to see him go to jail B)believes she needs to have an abortion and c) wants to keep all of this secret from her parents then she would be shocked and devastated when all of her objectives fell through because she wasn't aware of the law. PP has probably seen things like that happen time and again and has developed a policy of not asking so they don't have to tell.
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What I was getting at, and what I think GCB was getting at, is that girls are often ashamed to admit to being raped. They also tend to keep any history of abortion secret.
In most cases, medical care comes with an expectation of confidentiality. I don't think there's anything wrong with PP warning girls about this.
If a girl comes to the clinic and A)believes she is in love with her 23 year old bf and has no desire to see him go to jail B)believes she needs to have an abortion and c) wants to keep all of this secret from her parents then she would be shocked and devastated when all of her objectives fell through because she wasn't aware of the law. PP has probably seen things like that happen time and again and has developed a policy of not asking so they don't have to tell.
I understand where you are both coming from. I think we disagree on whether PP has an obligation to report a crime and whether they should encourage girls to lie.
It really doesn't matter whether a 13-year-old girl believes she is in love with a 23-year-old man. She is a victim, whether she realizes it or not. Some, if not most, of them probably don't realize this initially. No organization should do anything to encourage these kinds of relationships.
What role do you think the parents should play in all of this? Shouldn't the parents have a right to know (at a minimum)?
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I understand where you are both coming from. I think we disagree on whether PP has an obligation to report a crime and whether they should encourage girls to lie.
It really doesn't matter whether a 13-year-old girl believes she is in love with a 23-year-old man. She is a victim, whether she realizes it or not. Some, if not most, of them probably don't realize this initially. No organization should do anything to encourage these kinds of relationships.
What role do you think the parents should play in all of this? Shouldn't the parents have a right to know (at a minimum)?
Likewise, I can understand where you are coming from, for the most part. You've said you have two daughters. I don't know anything about you, but judging solely by what you've posted in this thread, you would probably react rationally-understandably angry, but still rationally- were you to find out they were pregnant.
A lot parents aren't like that. In a lot of cases, these girls would have their lives ruined if either the pregnancy, the abortion or the over-aged boyfriend were revealed. I am under the impression that PP truly believes they are working in the best interests of the girl when they ask as few questions as possible.
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A lot parents aren't like that. In a lot of cases, these girls would have their lives ruined if either the pregnancy, the abortion or the over-aged boyfriend were revealed. I am under the impression that PP truly believes they are working in the best interests of the girl when they ask as few questions as possible.
Very true, Al. Don't you think if forced to confront these types of issues, parents would inevitably get better at handling situations like that. I have daughters too, and quite frankly I'm scared to death of this possibility, but I know that it could happen no matter how well I raise them, and I know that it has to be dealt with.
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Likewise, I can understand where you are coming from, for the most part. You've said you have two daughters. I don't know anything about you, but judging solely by what you've posted in this thread, you would probably react rationally-understandably angry, but still rationally- were you to find out they were pregnant.
A lot parents aren't like that. In a lot of cases, these girls would have their lives ruined if either the pregnancy, the abortion or the over-aged boyfriend were revealed. I am under the impression that PP truly believes they are working in the best interests of the girl when they ask as few questions as possible.
Thanks. I have three daughters (one son). In a sense a girl's life is already ruined when she is raped by an adult. Her innocence has been stolen. I would be beyond angry if it happened to my child. The perp would be in a little trouble. You'd be seeing me on Court TV. :-\
I just don't see how keeping these kinds of monumental events and decisions from parents is a good thing. It really is a family matter (and a criminal matter). Cannot imagine my child going through something like this without me.
There is also the issue of the perp continuing to have sex with underage girls, creating yet more victims.
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Thanks. I have three daughters (one son). In a sense a girl's life is already ruined when she is raped by an adult. Her innocence has been stolen. I would be beyond angry if it happened to my child. The perp would be in a little trouble. You'd be seeing me on Court TV. :-\
I'm right there with ya, bro. :-\ I'd be all over the news too, if something like these were to ever happen to one of my kids.
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Very true, Al. Don't you think if forced to confront these types of issues, parents would inevitably get better at handling situations like that. I have daughters too, and quite frankly I'm scared to death of this possibility, but I know that it could happen no matter how well I raise them, and I know that it has to be dealt with.
I know how scary it must be to raise children these days. I think people are starting to realize that kids can make really bad decisions no matter how well-intentioned their parents were.
However, parents frame of reference in dealing with kids is limited to their own fam. What I mean by that is a teacher might eventually alter their perception of what constitutes truly awful behavior from a student because they deal with so many kids over the course of several years. Parents only deal with their own kids, so they have standards for them that aren't necessarily defined relative to others' behavior.
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Thanks. I have three daughters (one son). In a sense a girl's life is already ruined when she is raped by an adult. Her innocence has been stolen. I would be beyond angry if it happened to my child. The perp would be in a little trouble. You'd be seeing me on Court TV. :-\
I just don't see how keeping these kinds of monumental events and decisions from parents is a good thing. It really is a family matter (and a criminal matter). Cannot imagine my child going through something like this without me.
There is also the issue of the perp continuing to have sex with underage girls, creating yet more victims.
Earlier I described this issue as complicated. I'll try to elaborate.
There's this r&b singer named R. Kelly. Most people know that he was videotaped in various sexual acts with an underaged girl a few years ago. What a lot of people don't know is that her family has been sort of uncooperative in prosecuting the case because of all the negative attention their daughter was subjected to.
He was videotaped peeing on a little girl and his career hasn't suffered a bit. He still regularly has #1 singles and people rationalize that the girl knew what she was doing, blah, blah, blah...
Blacks have a reputation for being able to look the other way when it comes to black celebrities and crime, but these aren't just black people I'm talking about. He released a song this summer called "I'm a flirt" that got regular play on Z100, which is the "white"/pop station here.
This is a common phenomenon. In any high profile rape case, people find a way to blame the female victim.
I used to be a huge Kelly fan, but not any longer and I hate the fact that his career can go on unaffected. I do not think statutory rape is right.
I also know that young teenagers do have sex and that the mental damage incurred during a consensual sexual relationship probably isn't as crippling as a forced rape or years of incest or a high profile trial that converts you into a town pariah.
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Good stuff Al - that was what I was getting at.