Getbig Bodybuilding, Figure and Fitness Forums
Getbig Bodybuilding Boards => Training Q&A => Topic started by: EL Mariachi on August 16, 2007, 08:57:30 AM
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So im training at home now, in my cage, its great. but i have some problems with regularsquats, i just cant seem to find the right form, im 1,85 cm tall, thats like 5 11. I just cant keep my back straight when doing regular squats, otherwise i get the feeling i would fall, if i do them like arnod in pumping iron, that way i have a btter grip but the lover back takes the movement over, and i cant go deep.
With front squats it feels much better, i an get as deep as i like, and the form is perfect, its only not so comfortable on the front delts cause the weight is resting on them, but thats the price im willing to pay.any of you have these issues?
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I'm tall (6'2") and have similar issues with regard to squatting. In a standard squat, I feel like I'm pitching forward & all the stress is on my hip joints & lower back.
I definitely prefer front squats, I can get a full ROM, and a great quad workout. The best part is, I stand more upright and don't feel like I'm gonna eat the mat! When I want to hit my glutes and adductors (like I would with regular squats) I do box squats to parallel.
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is this guy really triple h??
if so, i fucking hate you dude. stone cold steve austin would smash on you back in the day.
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Front squats are terrible for me. To each his own.
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I like both.
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is this guy really triple h??
if so, i fucking hate you dude. stone cold steve austin would smash on you back in the day.
I figured you would be the type to follow wrestling. So we know you wear a helmet and watch wrestling.
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i do both, do what's comfortable to you
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Front squats are terrible for me. To each his own.
in the beginning front sq felt terrible for me too, very awkward in the beginning, now i like it a lot, now i mastered it. the advantage with the front sq is that it allows your back to stay vertical, thats the perfect form for any squat, but its real hard to do regular squats withhout bending the lower back, almost impossible to do.
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this is the power rack im using, i have a bench with it that allows me to do also decline press and shoulder press.
for legs i do the following excersizes:
front squats
lunges
shiffleaged deadlift
calves: dictionary barefoot raises ( ive made more results in 3 months doing these dictionary's than 7 years using the gym equipment bullshit)
I think these movements will give you better legs then the excersizes in the gym like leg press, what do you think about that?
For back i do:
barbell rows
t-bar rows
pull ups
What do you think if you let a pro-bodybuilder only use this equipment, would they suffer any muscle?
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im 6'4,, ive tried a thousand times but i cant squat for shit, unless i have 10 pound plates under my heels.. im not sure what that does but my back stays strait and i can get all the way down
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in the beginning front sq felt terrible for me too, very awkward in the beginning, now i like it a lot, now i mastered it. the advantage with the front sq is that it allows your back to stay vertical, thats the perfect form for any squat, but its real hard to do regular squats withhout bending the lower back, almost impossible to do.
God bless ya' for mastering the form on front squats. After weeks of dealing with a rolling bar that was putting more strain on my shoulders and arms than my legs, I said "screw this crap" and went back to regular squats.
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I highly prefer front squat and hack squat for the quads !
regular squat are better to hit everything (glutes, hams, quads)
but for quads nothing beat front squats
and finish the thing with some sissy squats, those are killer
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im 6'4,, ive tried a thousand times but i cant squat for shit, unless i have 10 pound plates under my heels.. im not sure what that does but my back stays strait and i can get all the way down
i always thaught that was bullshit, but i will definetely tryt that, it makes a lot of sence really, it gives you better stance and gripp of the feet i quess, ill try those.
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i always thaught that was bullshit, but i will definetely tryt that, it makes a lot of sence really, it gives you better stance and gripp of the feet i quess, ill try those.
From Mike Boyle:
1) Switch to Front Squats
Back pain has three root causes as it relates to lifting. Torque (forward lean), compression (high spinal loads), and flexion are what cause back injuries. Front squats lessen torque, compression, and flexion, and are therefore inherently safer.
(http://www.t-nation.com/img/photos/06-157-training/image003.png)
I've written before that you can't front squat badly. The truth is you probably can front squat badly, but it's a lot easier to back squat badly. In general, if you front squat poorly, you'll dump the bar.
However, there are three major reasons people still do back squats versus front squats:
1. They always have. (A bad reason, but people really hate change.)
2. They can lift more weight. (Ego is always a big problem).
3. They perceive front squats as difficult due to poor wrist flexibility.
Number three is easily solved with an old Charles Poliquin trick. Just add straps to the bar.
(http://www.t-nation.com/img/photos/06-157-training/image005.jpg)
The truth is that front squats decrease spinal load and improve back position — two positives in my book. My athletes and clients haven't done a back squat in about seven years. We have very little back pain. We still front squat relatively heavy. My college players front squat between 300 and 350 pounds to powerlifting depth at bodyweights of 180-200 with no wraps and usually a Velcro belt.
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is this guy really triple h??
Heh. No. I just used to watch & HHH was my fave when I registered on this board.
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Front
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From Mike Boyle:
1) Switch to Front Squats
Back pain has three root causes as it relates to lifting. Torque (forward lean), compression (high spinal loads), and flexion are what cause back injuries. Front squats lessen torque, compression, and flexion, and are therefore inherently safer.
(http://www.t-nation.com/img/photos/06-157-training/image003.png)
I've written before that you can't front squat badly. The truth is you probably can front squat badly, but it's a lot easier to back squat badly. In general, if you front squat poorly, you'll dump the bar.
However, there are three major reasons people still do back squats versus front squats:
1. They always have. (A bad reason, but people really hate change.)
2. They can lift more weight. (Ego is always a big problem).
3. They perceive front squats as difficult due to poor wrist flexibility.
Number three is easily solved with an old Charles Poliquin trick. Just add straps to the bar.
(http://www.t-nation.com/img/photos/06-157-training/image005.jpg)
The truth is that front squats decrease spinal load and improve back position — two positives in my book. My athletes and clients haven't done a back squat in about seven years. We have very little back pain. We still front squat relatively heavy. My college players front squat between 300 and 350 pounds to powerlifting depth at bodyweights of 180-200 with no wraps and usually a Velcro belt.
thats good info mike, i do them ronnie-style with arms in a X-cross, what do you think of that technique? do your clients have delt pain due to the heavyfront squats?
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Ronnie style is good, but we like to do them in the "rack" or clean position but that can be tough on peoples wrists. We do that becuase you are holding onto the bar as opposed to just holding it to your delts. It's also a good primer for push presses and cleans.
The picture where she usues the straps is my favorite, you just wrap the straps on the bar like they were on your wrist, then wind the excess around your hands and hold them like you're holding 2 dumbells side-by-side on your delts. No pressure on your delts and the bar is very secure.
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Ronnie style is good, but we like to do them in the "rack" or clean position but that can be tough on peoples wrists. We do that becuase you are holding onto the bar as opposed to just holding it to your delts. It's also a good primer for push presses and cleans.
The picture where she usues the straps is my favorite, you just wrap the straps on the bar like they were on your wrist, then wind the excess around your hands and hold them like you're holding 2 dumbells side-by-side on your delts. No pressure on your delts and the bar is very secure.
I usually do them ronnie style too and work up to 4 plates a side. Is it easier to do it the other way
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Ronnie style is good, but we like to do them in the "rack" or clean position but that can be tough on peoples wrists. We do that becuase you are holding onto the bar as opposed to just holding it to your delts. It's also a good primer for push presses and cleans.
The picture where she usues the straps is my favorite, you just wrap the straps on the bar like they were on your wrist, then wind the excess around your hands and hold them like you're holding 2 dumbells side-by-side on your delts. No pressure on your delts and the bar is very secure.
somebody stole my straps in a gym some time ago, i need to buyme some damn straps.
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I usually do them ronnie style too and work up to 4 plates a side. Is it easier to do it the other way
Yep
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I like that adding straps to the bar thing for fronts, ill try it tonight or tommorrow...(might skip tonight) The worst thing with font squats have been the soreness in the fron delts from the weight. Eventhough i only go up to 275.
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Regular squats are better for size IMO. Shouldn't be any balance issues by trying:
-A 2" block under the heels. Much easier to do regular squats with no balance issues this way.
-Box squats
I would only do front squats for a more specific purpose, such as developing the teardrop. Some like em though.
That cage with a pulley and chin attachment will work as well as gym equipment.
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an olympic lifter told me that doing front squats with your arms crossed signals that you are not flexible enough in your shoulders but i have always done them this way. if you do olympic weightlifting then doing it their way is logical as it prepares you for the clean and jerk.
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So im training at home now, in my cage, its great. but i have some problems with regularsquats, i just cant seem to find the right form, im 1,85 cm tall, thats like 5 11. I just cant keep my back straight when doing regular squats, otherwise i get the feeling i would fall, if i do them like arnod in pumping iron, that way i have a btter grip but the lover back takes the movement over, and i cant go deep.
With front squats it feels much better, i an get as deep as i like, and the form is perfect, its only not so comfortable on the front delts cause the weight is resting on them, but thats the price im willing to pay.any of you have these issues?
I know EXACTLY what you mean. A few years ago I injured my lower back doing ATF squats a little too fast :-[
Got a little too cocky ;D Anyways, since then I've still been struggling to get my groove back with normal squats...and now three years later I'm still not where I used to be. So i've added front squats to my routine regularly....
Front squats are not for the weak!
Bottom line, you can't cheat on them! Anyone I ever lift with, or any of my clients that normal do partial squats with 3-4 plates struggle with a plate on front squats...cause if you cheat and go down partially the weight will pull forward, you have to go all the way down! But it's added tremendous depth to my lateralis....
For the most part, if someone can rep out some serious weight on the front squat...they probably don't have small legs ;)
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an olympic lifter told me that doing front squats with your arms crossed signals that you are not flexible enough in your shoulders but i have always done them this way. if you do olympic weightlifting then doing it their way is logical as it prepares you for the clean and jerk.
Exactly, and most rec lifters/bodybuilders (getbig included) don't care much about wrist/elbow flexability.
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front squats are no different than any other basic barbell movement in that the more you practice it the better you get at it, after awhile it becomes second nature.
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Correct. Try them first on a smith machine to get the feel of the movement. When you are comfy with it,
then proceed to free front squats.
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This is a very informative thread. A question: what are the dictionary calf raises in the cage mentioned on page 1?
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Front squats work the Quads the most
Back squats work the Quads as well as low back/adductor group and glutes
Try a Safety squat bar. It actually "pulls you forward" forcing your upper and lower back to be recruited BIG TIME. It also reduces external rotation on the shoulders.
http://www.flexcart.com/members/elitefts/default.asp?m=PD&cid=212&pid=10
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I still haven't learn the proper form on the squat either..so I switched to the smith machine
this allows me to go deeper and carry some decent weight..without the smith machine I always lean forward too much and work the lower back
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Steele : For free squats.. what are you wearing on your feet ? I'm serious. this can make all the diference in the world when free squatting.
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This is a very informative thread. A question: what are the dictionary calf raises in the cage mentioned on page 1?
You dont need the cage for calves, just take a thick dictionary, and do calf raises, they need to be preformed barefoot, to get the better pump and feeling, so just calfraises with your bodyweight, the tricky part is to keep going for atleast 2 minutes, to work it up to 5 min one feet at the time, you need to psyche yourself up when it begins to hurt.
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Steele : For free squats.. what are you wearing on your feet ? I'm serious. this can make all the diference in the world when free squatting.
what do you sudgest to wear? if you put 5 pound paltes under your feet, it doesnt matter what shoes you wear right?
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I still haven't learn the proper form on the squat either..so I switched to the smith machine
this allows me to go deeper and carry some decent weight..without the smith machine I always lean forward too much and work the lower back
Not only is it near worthless to use a smith machine but it is very dangerous for your knees and ACL.
If you lean forward to much then try agressivly stretching your hip flexors out b/t sets
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Correct. Try them first on a smith machine to get the feel of the movement. When you are comfy with it,
then proceed to free front squats.
I disagree. I would not try them on a smith machine first. On most smith machine you have to push up and flip over the bar making the exercise more difficult than it really is.
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Not only is it near worthless to use a smith machine but it is very dangerous for your knees and ACL.
If you lean forward to much then try agressivly stretching your hip flexors out b/t sets
i dont agree , the smith forces you to use proper form,the back should be in harmony with the vertical movement, so if you re leaning with your back its time to put your feet more forward of the bar. I also believe that building a strong lower back is crucial for good form and strength for squats. I didnt do deadlift for a couple of months and all of a sudden i had problems with squat-form.
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what do you sudgest to wear?
real men wear otomix
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I totally second this bro! front squats with a close stance without lockin out at the top! all i have to say is WOW, it feels like my quads are goin to explode when i get done w/those!
I highly prefer front squat and hack squat for the quads !
regular squat are better to hit everything (glutes, hams, quads)
but for quads nothing beat front squats
and finish the thing with some sissy squats, those are killer
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I've been saying this for a while: basic squats suck for a lot of people's builds.
There are a lot of heavyweight squat videos posted all over the net that are in essence what scott abel calls 'goodmorning squats'. No problem in that if you're using light weights but they are not.
Careers will be ended by this phenomenon and all for the sake of : tradition, ego, a wrong perception of hardcoreness associated with the back squat
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real men wear otomix
Thats if you leave your work boots at home
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Regular squats are better for size IMO. Shouldn't be any balance issues by trying:
-A 2" block under the heels. Much easier to do regular squats with no balance issues this way.
-Box squats
I would only do front squats for a more specific purpose, such as developing the teardrop. Some like em though.
That cage with a pulley and chin attachment will work as well as gym equipment.
I know for a time, Dave Draper sold a squat attachment that placed one's arms well in front of you, thus relieving stress on the spine. Has anyone ever tried it? I'm not sure if he sells it anymore, as I went to his website and was not able to find it. I think it was called the "Top Squat". Probably didn't sell to many because I think he wanted $500 for it.
Also, has anyone ever tried Frank Zane's squat machine?
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I know for a time, Dave Draper sold a squat attachment that placed one's arms well in front of you, thus relieving stress on the spine. Has anyone ever tried it? I'm not sure if he sells it anymore, as I went to his website and was not able to find it. I think it was called the "Top Squat". Probably didn't sell to many because I think he wanted $500 for it.
Also, has anyone ever tried Frank Zane's squat machine?
The Top Squat is here for only $149:
http://www.davedraper.com/fitness_products/product/TTS.html
It seems like a useful thing if one has shoulder problems. I don't see how it would change the mechanics of the regular squat, however. A Sting Ray device works fine for front squats. Unless one is an olympic lifter, why bother going hard-bar, rack-style for front squats?
http://www.amazon.com/Harness-Sting-Ray-shoulder-Squats/dp/B000KC6KJS
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im 6'4,, ive tried a thousand times but i cant squat for shit, unless i have 10 pound plates under my heels.. im not sure what that does but my back stays strait and i can get all the way down
Puttin ten pounders under my heels helped everythign. I cant bend my ankles a whole lot, so that helped, as it also helped keeping my backstraight. So it lets ya go deeper and straighter, excellent.
I tried front squats a few times..always made my shoulders hurt so i said fuck that noise, got a lil angry, and whent back to regularsquats. Granted if front squats didn't hurt my friggin shoulders so much, i'd do them for sure.
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i dont agree , the smith forces you to use proper form,the back should be in harmony with the vertical movement, so if you re leaning with your back its time to put your feet more forward of the bar. I also believe that building a strong lower back is crucial for good form and strength for squats. I didnt do deadlift for a couple of months and all of a sudden i had problems with squat-form.
This post is so wrong on so many levels it disgusts me!
El Macronie you might be the most ignorant person on this board when it comes to weight training. Please never advise ANYONE on how to lift weights.
As far as the Smith MAchine goes:
1) Zero functional transfer to real life, sports or other lifts.
2) Develops strength in only one dimension, predisposing you to injury in the underdeveloped planes of movement resulting in pattern overload syndrome. This can lead to medical bills in the long run.
3) Because the bar is fixed, the person is able to lean against the bar while doing squats. This minimizes hip extension, thus allowing the hamstrings to take a siesta during the movement. Trouble is the hamstrings help to stabilize the knee during squats, and the result of taking them out of the picture is to induce a sheering force on the joint. This could ultimately lead to a blown anterior cruciate ligament.
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back squats lead to a serious back injury , like what the dude said with torque , compression , flexion...
basically front squats work a charm for my back and i feel it WAY more in my quads rather than my glutes/lower back with back squats
just depends on what works for your own body...experiment!
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what do you sudgest to wear? if you put 5 pound paltes under your feet, it doesnt matter what shoes you wear right?
Stop trolling this board.
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Flat footed squating will give better flex/stretch in the ankles. Athletes are advised to squat flat footed for just that reason. Doing only machine leg work (depending on the machine) will tend to take away for that flexible state. The more flat footed squating, the more flex/stretch is developed. And the easier squating becomes. In anyone doe calf work, than regular squatting/ankles should never be a problem.
Placing a 2X4 under the heels shifts more of the work load onto the quads themselves and away from the lower back and butt. Front squats also will focus the work load to the quads, deflecting away from the lower back/butt to a certain degree. Most Olympic lifters have built up heels on their lifting shoes/boots for better weight shift and balance when doing cleans/front squats.
When squating, a weight held at shoulder level in front of the body involves the quads more. When that weight is held behind the body (regular squat) the whole leg/butt dynamic changes. In either case, to devote even more attention to the quads than have the heels raised (that 2X4 again).
Holding a bar in the front squat position becomes very easy and painless with a little practice. After a while you can cross the arms or even hold the arms straight out in front of you when front squating. It is a matter of being flexible enough in the shoulder girdle, elbows and wrist. Work on that slowly and results will follow.
Any leg program can be better off if both version of squating are included, from time to time. They compliment each other with regards to development and strength. Good Luck.
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I know for a time, Dave Draper sold a squat attachment that placed one's arms well in front of you, thus relieving stress on the spine. Has anyone ever tried it? I'm not sure if he sells it anymore, as I went to his website and was not able to find it. I think it was called the "Top Squat". Probably didn't sell to many because I think he wanted $500 for it.
Also, has anyone ever tried Frank Zane's squat machine?
Draper's Top Squat is $150. Worth trying, looks comfortable.
http://www.davedraper.com/top-squat.html