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Getbig Main Boards => General Topics => Topic started by: ~flower~ on August 24, 2007, 07:53:34 AM
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originally on the Pet Board, but was suggested that it would make a good topic elsewhere.
Tell me, what has man done for the Earth? Has man contributed anything? What is man's purpose? I see no purpose for man. Man destroys and wastes everything he comes in contact with. Man is at the top of the food chain, but even that is not needed on Earth. Animals like sharks and lions that are at the top in the animal food chain have a purpose, they eat the old and sick and cull numbers of animals keeping a balance so everything may go on. Man has to breed animals to survive so we don't even have the purpose of keeping a balance in nature. Man has caused extinction of many animals either by over hunting, destroying habitats, or by introducing non native species that then kill off the native species. How much scrambling has man done to try and fix it's mistakes? Man wages war on each other over anything. You don't see animals going to war on each other to the point that they have destroyed their homelands and are barely surviving.
Seems like man has done a lot with it's ability for higher thinking. ::)
Man is expendable on this planet, animals are not, I think that puts one higher than the other. :)
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Flower this series of questions and comments are worthy of their own thread I just don't with forum they should go on but you have made some thought provoking points worthy of discussion. Especially the "I see no purpose for man" comment, I feel your passion but I really would like to know exactly what you mean here and what does this say about what you think about yourself! But I think this should be discussed on or in another board and thread. What do you think shall we go for it?
I thought about putting that on the General Board but wanted it to be read in this thread. I will copy it and start a thread on the General Board. It would be interesting to read other peoples comments.
In my "I see no purpose in man" comment I mean that man shouldn't really hold itself that much higher than other animals on this planet. If you look at having a purpose on this planet, man has none. We have abused our higher status IMO. We have done nothing to deserver a higher status except to be made with higher brain and thinking capabilities which don't seem to have been put to good use in a lot of cases.
Man may have had a purpose way back when, the Indians are a good example of man LIVING with the world and all it's inhabitants, and not just LIVING OFF the world. Man is a parasite basically.
When I read about the horrors man inflicts upon man, along with cruelty to other creatures, part of me is disgusted to be called a human. I don't fear animals in this world, I fear the people in this world. And when I think that I could have a crime committed against me by a person, against the thought of having an animal attack me, which one is more horrible from a humanity point? The one done by the thinking, feeling, higher creature, or the lower animal?
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I thought about putting that on the General Board but wanted it to be read in this thread. I will copy it and start a thread on the General Board. It would be interesting to read other peoples comments.
In my "I see no purpose in man" comment I mean that man shouldn't really hold itself that much higher than other animals on this planet. If you look at having a purpose on this planet, man has none. We have abused our higher status IMO. We have done nothing to deserver a higher status except to be made with higher brain and thinking capabilities which don't seem to have been put to good use in a lot of cases.
Man may have had a purpose way back when, the Indians are a good example of man LIVING with the world and all it's inhabitants, and not just LIVING OFF the world. Man is a parasite basically.
When I read about the horrors man inflicts upon man, along with cruelty to other creatures, part of me is disgusted to be called a human. I don't fear animals in this world, I fear the people in this world. And when I think that I could have a crime committed against me by a person, against the thought of having an animal attack me, which one is more horrible from a humanity point? The one done by the thinking, feeling, higher creature, or the lower animal?
Ok Flower you are on, I need to do my research and I will be back guns uh blazing!
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Ok Flower you are on, I need to do my research and I will be back guns uh blazing!
;D I think man needs a serious reality check. I recall seeing a few Sci-Fi movies or episodes of the Twilight Zone or something, where aliens come to Earth and basically tell us what assholes humans are! Look at what you could of done, and look at what you are doing. I think in at least one I saw they are here to blow us up so we don't go spreading our plague anywhere else. 8)
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;D I think man needs a serious reality check. I recall seeing a few Sci-Fi movies or episodes of the Twilight Zone or something, where aliens come to Earth and basically tell us what assholes humans are! Look at what you could of done, and look at what you are doing. I think in at least one I saw they are here to blow us up so we don't go spreading our plague anywhere else. 8)
I saw one that I think was what you are referring to it was called "To Serve man" ("How to serve man", as in how to prepare him as a main course) lol They tricked the earthlings into thinking they were here to make our lives better then started sweeping the ones who really bought into their gimmick, only later to find out that they were being fattened up for the next Alien luau lol! Sounds historically familiar doesn't it. (Cowboys and Indians (Oops Native Americans))
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I thought about putting that on the General Board but wanted it to be read in this thread. I will copy it and start a thread on the General Board. It would be interesting to read other peoples comments.
In my "I see no purpose in man" comment I mean that man shouldn't really hold itself that much higher than other animals on this planet. If you look at having a purpose on this planet, man has none. We have abused our higher status IMO. We have done nothing to deserver a higher status except to be made with higher brain and thinking capabilities which don't seem to have been put to good use in a lot of cases.
Man may have had a purpose way back when, the Indians are a good example of man LIVING with the world and all it's inhabitants, and not just LIVING OFF the world. Man is a parasite basically.
When I read about the horrors man inflicts upon man, along with cruelty to other creatures, part of me is disgusted to be called a human. I don't fear animals in this world, I fear the people in this world. And when I think that I could have a crime committed against me by a person, against the thought of having an animal attack me, which one is more horrible from a humanity point? The one done by the thinking, feeling, higher creature, or the lower animal?
Biblically speaking Man Kind was given the responsibility to have dominion over all things (animals included) that dwell on earth but the problem is that man has perverted his dominion and has not been a good steward with what he has been charged to oversee.
"And when I think that I could have a crime committed against me by a person, against the thought of having an animal attack me, which one is more horrible from a humanity point?" this depends on the crime and what kind of animal. I have a video (I don't know how to get it to you) but this guy is with his family on what appears to be an African Safari tour. He decides to get out of his car to get a better camera shot of some lions laying in the grass (The guy IMO was already 15 ft away but he just had to get closer) anyway he gets in position and BAM outta nowhere this lion jumps on his back and the 3 or 4 other lions decide its time to have a luau and this guy (infront of his screaming wife and kids) becomes lunch for the blood thristy pride. All this to say I would rather some guy approach me on the street with a knife or even a handgun; where I might take a chance on him being a terrible shot or even maybe just wanting to intimidate me into giving up the goods, than to have a hungry pride of Lions eating my asshole out while I am still alive witnessing the same. You really need to see the video the guy even tries to get up just before he is beheaded and disembowed. I really can't discern wheter one or the other is humane or inhumane, I just think its life. Moral of this story keep ya ass in the car when Lions are about or run if a guy comes at you with a weapon.
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"What is the purpose of Man on this planet?"
To glorify God.
How's mankind doing? Some are doing OK and some aren't :-\
When I read about the horrors man inflicts upon man, along with cruelty to other creatures, part of me is disgusted to be called a human. I don't fear animals in this world, I fear the people in this world. And when I think that I could have a crime committed against me by a person, against the thought of having an animal attack me, which one is more horrible from a humanity point? The one done by the thinking, feeling, higher creature, or the lower animal?
As far as this question goes, it depends on the criminal. Is he a freaky serial killer that would keep me in a hole in the basement and tell me to rub the lotion on my skin? If so, I'd rather be mauled and killed by a pack of lions.
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Biblically speaking Man Kind was given the responsibility to have dominion over all things (animals included) that dwell on earth but the problem is that man has perverted his dominion and has not been a good steward with what he has been charged to oversee.
I would prefer to have an actual example of man having a purpose and doing it. So far man = 0 ;D
this depends on the crime and what kind of animal. I have a video (I don't know how to get it to you) but this guy is with his family on what appears to be an African Safari tour.
I saw that video. :-\ But man is supposed to be the better species, so an animal attack (which in the example you gave was the guy's fault for doing what he did and getting close to them, not saying he deserved it, but I can't blame the animal) from a lesser species is understandable, but an actual thought out act from another human being is the worse crime in the context of morals and values IMO.
So far I am not even slightly swayed. 8)
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"What is the purpose of Man on this planet?"
To glorify God.
How's mankind doing? Some are doing OK and some aren't :-\
I respect your beliefs STella, but that doesn't sway me. I do agree that some people are trying to be a good animal 8), but as a whole I don't see the purpose of man or anything that man has contributed to this world.
As far as this question goes, it depends on the criminal. Is he a freaky serial killer that would keep me in a hole in the basement and tell me to rub the lotion on my skin? If so, I'd rather be mauled and killed by a pack of lions.
Again I am not meaning the actual crime, but the reasoning behind it. Man is the supposed higher species, we can think, rationalize, have compassion and feelings. So to me that makes a deliberate crime against another human being (or any living thing) more heinous from that viewpoint.
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Again I am not meaning the actual crime, but the reasoning behind it. Man is the supposed higher species, we can think, rationalize, have compassion and feelings. So to me that makes a deliberate crime against another human being (or any living thing) more heinous from that viewpoint.
I smell ya. (I understand what you are saying ;D )
as a whole I don't see .... anything that man has contributed to this world.
Not even Raspberry licorice and indoor plumbing? :)
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Not even Raspberry licorice and indoor plumbing? :)
those are for man's needs and not for any other reason. 8)
If you took away fish, for instance, the whole food chain would eventually collapse. We are already seeing the affects of our ocean's resources being depleted. Take man of the planet and what affect is there?
fish > man ;D
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the purpose of man is the same as that of any other animal. to have as many kids as possible, and to do his best to make sure that the kids survive to reproduce themselves. HTH.
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those are for man's needs and not for any other reason. 8)
If you took away fish, for instance, the whole food chain would eventually collapse. We are already seeing the affects of our ocean's resources being depleted. Take man of the planet and what affect is there?
fish > man ;D
I think you would rather be a dirty rotten human because, if you were a fish some man would snatch you out of the water and eat ya, you decide!
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the purpose of man is the same as that of any other animal. to have as many kids as possible, and to try and to do his best to make sure that the kids survive to reproduce themselves. HTH.
Not really. Man is supposed to be "better" than other animals but if man died off tomorrow it wouldn't affect much long term except for the better.
It appears that only our higher brain capabilities is what makes us "higher" than animals. We evolved, but as a species are very expendable. Fish and the ocean animals are NOT expendable, yet man is better than a fish?
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I think you would rather be a dirty rotten human because, if you were a fish some man would snatch you out of the water and eat ya, you decide!
the question posed is not what would rather be, but what is more valuable to this earth. Probably every other living thing has a purpose that it contributes to this earth, even little bugs are there to clean up wastes, decay, etc.
Man is better than animals because we can THINK we are? 8)
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Not really. Man is supposed to be "better" than other animals but if man died off tomorrow it wouldn't affect much long term except for the better.
It appears that only our higher brain capabilities is what makes us "higher" than animals. We evolved, but as a species are very expendable. Fish and the ocean animals are NOT expendable, yet man is better than a fish?
you think we're supposed to be "better" b/c we're conscious, but maybe the point of being conscious is just to help us do better at dominating and propagating. of course, we could dominate and propagate ourselves right off the planet . . . in which case something else will come after us. or else we will start spreading throughout the universe.
we live eighty years if we're lucky, and our recorded memories don't go much further back than 6,000 years . . . the cycle that produced us has taken millions of years.
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To answer this question....you have to define the character of man...which is greed.
Greed leads to destruction of all living things.
So the answer is quite obvious....The purpose of Man on this planet is to destroy everything in it's path including themself.
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the question posed is not what would rather be, but what is more valuable to this earth. Probably every other living thing has a purpose that it contributes to this earth, even little bugs are there to clean up wastes, decay, etc.
Man is better than animals because we can THINK we are? 8)
umm . . . what's this contribution stuff? Over millenia, ecosystems reach equilibrium, but that never lasts. Nobody's here to "contribute," we're all here to reproduce.
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you think we're supposed to be "better" b/c we're conscious, but maybe the point of being conscious is just to help us do better at dominating and propagating. of course, we could dominate and propagate ourselves right off the planet . . . in which case something else will come after us. or else we will start spreading throughout the universe.
we live eighty years if we're lucky, and our recorded memories don't go much further back than 6,000 years . . . the cycle that produced us has taken millions of years.
I don't think that we are better. In case anyone missed this start of this topic on the Pet Board, it was stated that torturing an animal is better than torturing a person. I disagree and say torture is torture. And if man is supposed to be the thinking, reasoning, compassionate animal, then it should be seen as being wrong to torture or be deliberately cruel to any other living thing. It was then brought up that man eats animals, therefore man is better. But that sends the topic into another direction. Which prompted my question on why is man better than animals? What purpose does man have here? What has man contributed?
So far it appears to be nothing that is not motivated by mans desires for itself.
I am in no way saying that animals should not be eaten, there is a few chain in life after all, nor am I saying if given a choice to save a person or an animal the animal should be chosen (depending on the person in question this could be debatable 8) ) but none of that is reason why torture or deliberate cruelty is even slightly acceptable by man as long as it is done to an animal. I think that as a thinking higher brained creature, it should be seen as wrong, period. To say otherwise puts man beneath the animals.
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I don't think that we are better. In case anyone missed this start of this topic on the Pet Board, it was stated that torturing an animal is better than torturing a person. I disagree and say torture is torture. And if man is supposed to be the thinking, reasoning, compassionate animal, then it should be seen as being wrong to torture or be deliberately cruel to any other living thing. It was then brought up that man eats animals, therefore man is better. But that sends the topic into another direction. Which prompted my question on why is man better than animals? What purpose does man have here? What has man contributed?
So far it appears to be nothing that is not motivated by mans desires for itself.
I am in no way saying that animals should not be eaten, there is a few chain in life after all, nor am I saying if given a choice to save a person or an animal the animal should be chosen (depending on the person in question this could be debatable 8) ) but none of that is reason why torture or deliberate cruelty is even slightly acceptable by man as long as it is done to an animal. I think that as a thinking higher brained creature, it should be seen as wrong, period. To say otherwise puts man beneath the animals.
It puts us on par w animals at worst . . .
some animals cannibalize their young, others kill and maim for sport/dominance . . . surely you've seen that. Most humans don't engage in this kind of behavior
Even if i bought the "higher" brain train of thought, it would seem that you're trying to define all of humanity by the actions of a few.
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It puts us on par w animals at worst . . .
some animals cannibalize their young, others kill and maim for sport/dominance . . . surely you've seen that. Most humans don't engage in this kind of behavior
Even if i bought the "higher" brain train of thought, it would seem that you're trying to define all of humanity by the actions of a few.
No, I was originally trying to explain why I thought torture and deliberate cruelty is wrong whether it is a person or an animal. To say otherwise takes away what is supposed to set us apart from the animals.
Then I got to thinking about what, if anything, man has done for this planet and it's inhabitants and it doesn't appear to be much, if anything. And the loss of mankind would only better the planet, not worsen it.
very funny with the pink ::)
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To answer this question....you have to define the character of man...which is greed.
Greed leads to destruction of all living things.
So the answer is quite obvious....The purpose of Man on this planet is to destroy everything in it's path including themself.
lol yes this is obvious that Man is guilty of raping and pillaging everything in his path but Man does have a purpose and it is to attend to the earth! He was given the ability to reason in order to carry out this task! But of course we have falling short of this responsibility.
I have a question, are animals self aware? My dog see sherself in a mirror or her reflection at the lake! She thinks its another dog and pretty much wants to play with herself, ;D especially at the lake lol! She dives in to play but immediately realizes that the dog in the reflection disappeared, she then turns and looks befuddled, its hilarious lol I love her though ;D I wonder if my sig other was like this would she think another woman was in our bathroom when she looked in the mirror and then get mad at me for having another woman lol!
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some animals cannibalize their young, others kill and maim for sport/dominance . . . surely you've seen that. Most humans don't engage in this kind of behavior
What about people eating themselves (hangnails, fingernails, toenails) :o
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and scabs!
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originally on the Pet Board, but was suggested that it would make a good topic elsewhere.
Tell me, what has man done for the Earth? Has man contributed anything? What is man's purpose? I see no purpose for man. Man destroys and wastes everything he comes in contact with. Man is at the top of the food chain, but even that is not needed on Earth. Animals like sharks and lions that are at the top in the animal food chain have a purpose, they eat the old and sick and cull numbers of animals keeping a balance so everything may go on. Man has to breed animals to survive so we don't even have the purpose of keeping a balance in nature. Man has caused extinction of many animals either by over hunting, destroying habitats, or by introducing non native species that then kill off the native species. How much scrambling has man done to try and fix it's mistakes? Man wages war on each other over anything. You don't see animals going to war on each other to the point that they have destroyed their homelands and are barely surviving.
Seems like man has done a lot with it's ability for higher thinking. ::)
Man is expendable on this planet, animals are not, I think that puts one higher than the other. :)
You seem to start with the unsupported presumption that the planet's existence is a desirable end in and of itself, independent of humanity.
That's not necessarily a given.
But if it is, it could then be asserted that man's existence is also a desirable end in and of itself, rendering your whole argument moot.
Hope this helps! :P
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lol yes this is obvious that Man is guilty of raping and pillaging everything in his path but Man does have a purpose and it is to attend to the earth! He was given the ability to reason in order to carry out this task! But of course we have falling short of this responsibility.
I have a question, are animals self aware? My dog see sherself in a mirror or her reflection at the lake! She thinks its another dog and pretty much wants to play with herself, ;D especially at the lake lol! She dives in to play but immediately realizes that the dog in the reflection disappeared, she then turns and looks befuddled, its hilarious lol I love her though ;D I wonder if my sig other was like this would she think another woman was in our bathroom when she looked in the mirror and then get mad at me for having another woman lol!
Elephants Recognize Themselves in Mirrors
10.30.06, 12:00 AM ET
FRIDAY, Oct. 27 (HealthDay News) -- Mirror, mirror on the wall, who's the fairest pachyderm of them all?
U.S. scientists say they've found the first evidence that elephants can recognize themselves in mirrors, which means they join humans, apes and dolphins in a select group of species that have that ability.
The study found female elephants closely inspecting their reflections in a mirror and apparently not mistaking it for another elephant.
The finding, by researchers at the Yerkes National Primate Research Center at Emory University and the Wildlife Conservation Society in New York, suggests convergent evolution with humans.
Self-recognition in a mirror is believed to be related to empathic tendencies (being able to identify and understand others' feelings) and the ability of an individual to distinguish oneself from others, a characteristic that evolved independently in several branches of animals, the scientists said.
Due to elephants' social complexity, it had previously been predicted that they would be able to recognize themselves in mirrors.
"We see highly complex behaviors such as self-awareness and self-other distinction in intelligent animals with well-established social systems," researcher Joshua Plotnik, of the Yerkes Center, said in a prepared statement.
"The social complexity of the elephant, its well-known altruistic behavior and, of course, its huge brain, made the elephant a logical candidate species for testing in front of a mirror," Plotnik said.
This study included three female elephants at the Bronx Zoo in New York who were exposed to a jumbo-sized mirror eight feet high by eight feet wide. When they were in front of the mirror, the elephants tested the image by making repetitive body movements and inspecting themselves, such as putting their trunks inside their mouths, a part of their body they usually can't see.
The elephants did not react socially to their images and did not seem to mistake their reflection for that of other elephants.
"Elephants have been tested in front of mirrors before, but previous studies used relatively small mirrors kept out of the elephants' reach. This study is the first to test the animals in front of a huge mirror they could touch, rub against and try to look behind," Plotnik said.
The study appears in the current issue of the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.
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You seem to start with the unsupported presumption that the planet's existence is a desirable end in and of itself, independent of humanity.
That's not necessarily a given.
But if it is, it could then be asserted that man's existence is also a desirable end in and of itself, rendering your whole argument moot.
Hope this helps! :P
huh?
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huh?
Exactly! ;)
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Can someone prove to me that we're not just biological organisms evolved other vast amounts of time?
Prove to me morals are an invention by man, dictated via our genetic makeup, and the genetic makeup of other animals.
Prove to me there's a goal. I certainly don't see one, my genetic makeup does however programme me to want to procreate and pass on my genes.
You guys IMHO are too philosophical about this.
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I don't think that we are better. In case anyone missed this start of this topic on the Pet Board, it was stated that torturing an animal is better than torturing a person. I disagree and say torture is torture. And if man is supposed to be the thinking, reasoning, compassionate animal, then it should be seen as being wrong to torture or be deliberately cruel to any other living thing. It was then brought up that man eats animals, therefore man is better. But that sends the topic into another direction. Which prompted my question on why is man better than animals? What purpose does man have here? What has man contributed?
So far it appears to be nothing that is not motivated by mans desires for itself.
I am in no way saying that animals should not be eaten, there is a few chain in life after all, nor am I saying if given a choice to save a person or an animal the animal should be chosen (depending on the person in question this could be debatable 8) ) but none of that is reason why torture or deliberate cruelty is even slightly acceptable by man as long as it is done to an animal. I think that as a thinking higher brained creature, it should be seen as wrong, period. To say otherwise puts man beneath the animals.
A - Go sit in a room with a starving lion- see if it will allow you to live.
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Can someone prove to me that we're not just biological organisms evolved other vast amounts of time?
Prove to me morals are an invention by man, dictated via our genetic makeup, and the genetic makeup of other animals.
Prove to me there's a goal. I certainly don't see one, my genetic makeup does however programme me to want to procreate and pass on my genes.
You guys IMHO are too philosophical about this.
a - prove we have evolved
b- prove morals are not an invention
c- prove there is not a goal
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You seem to start with the unsupported presumption that the planet's existence is a desirable end in and of itself, independent of humanity.
That's not necessarily a given.
But if it is, it could then be asserted that man's existence is also a desirable end in and of itself, rendering your whole argument moot.
Hope this helps! :P
planets can survive without people
people cant survive without planets
we could orbit forever i suppose but be practical
hope this helps:)
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goatboy,
dont u agree that WITHOUT humans, nothing matters in the first place (since we wont be existing to determine or know ANYTHING, NOTHING matters)
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planets can survive without people
people cant survive without planets
we could orbit forever i suppose but be practical
hope this helps:)
I don't think you understood my post.
You're arguing that the planet is important, but only viewed in the context of man's survival. Flower was arguing that the planet is important in and of itself, independent of man, and "it" would be better off without humans.
I was refuting her argument, not the completely different argument that you seem to be making.
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goatboy,
dont u agree that WITHOUT humans, nothing matters in the first place (since we wont be existing to determine or know ANYTHING, NOTHING matters)
Yes, that was kind of my whole point.
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A - Go sit in a room with a starving lion- see if it will allow you to live.
You are going to have to expand upon this, your point is not clear.
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I don't think you understood my post.
You're arguing that the planet is important, but only viewed in the context of man's survival. Flower was arguing that the planet is important in and of itself, independant of man, and "it" would be better off without humans.
I was refuting her argument, not the completely different argument that you seem to be making.
so we have to go off on another tangent now? ::)
Thanks you mucky muck. :P
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You are going to have to expand upon this, your point is not clear.
Let me translate:
"Gingers taste better to hungry lions".
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so we have to go off on another tangent now? ::)
Thanks you mucky muck. :P
What tangent? Everything I've said is completely on-point. Didn't they teach you that at Trade School? ;D
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Let me translate:
"Gingers taste better to hungry lions".
then that means nothing to the topic. :)
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What tangent? Everything I've said is completely on-point. Didn't they teach you that at Trade School? ;D
The ORIGINAL topic was: It is better to torture and be cruel to animals then people.
:P
I say no it isn't, torture and deliberate cruelty is wrong no matter what.
Which brought up humans being better than animals and I say why? Just because we eat them doesn't make it so. Animals also eat other animals.
Which then brought up the fact that if the fish died eventually the living beings on the planet would die, but if man died off everything would be fine and probably better. so fish are more important than man. ;D
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but if man died off everything would be fine and probably better. ;D
From who's point of view? "Better" or "worse" are concepts only applicable to man. If man died off, the situation would clearly be "worse" for him, especially since value judgements don't apply outside the scope of humanity.
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From who's point of view? "Better" or "worse" are concepts only applicable to man. If man died off, the situation would clearly be "worse" for him, especially since value judgements don't apply outside the scope of humanity.
::) from man's point of view. I see no reason why man should think it would be better to torture animals than each other, man should see torture and cruelty as wrong, period.
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a - prove we have evolved
b- prove morals are not an invention
c- prove there is not a goal
A) Lots of evidence in favour of evolution, ofcourse non-definitive.
B) The fact that human morality has progressed in a similar way as evolution. Look back to the morality of 50 years ago, then 100 etc etc, you will see the change. Man himself and his creation "humanity" made these changes.
C) Just like the evolution answer. Nothing definitive either way.
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Which then brought up the fact that if the fish died eventually the living beings on the planet would die, but if man died off everything would be fine and probably better. so fish are more important than man. ;D
details . . . details. fish (which you're using loosely, could include different phyla) don't equate to man (species). if a phylum, or even a class died off, I imagine the planet would look very different, but don't worry, something else would probably take its place.
species (of fish even) go extinct all the time . . . and we go on
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You seem to start with the unsupported presumption that the planet's existence is a desirable end in and of itself, independent of humanity.
That's not necessarily a given.
But if it is, it could then be asserted that man's existence is also a desirable end in and of itself, rendering your whole argument moot.
Hope this helps! :P
Damn I think I actual understand what you are saying here!
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Elephants Recognize Themselves in Mirrors
10.30.06, 12:00 AM ET
FRIDAY, Oct. 27 (HealthDay News) -- Mirror, mirror on the wall, who's the fairest pachyderm of them all?
U.S. scientists say they've found the first evidence that elephants can recognize themselves in mirrors, which means they join humans, apes and dolphins in a select group of species that have that ability.
The study found female elephants closely inspecting their reflections in a mirror and apparently not mistaking it for another elephant.
The finding, by researchers at the Yerkes National Primate Research Center at Emory University and the Wildlife Conservation Society in New York, suggests convergent evolution with humans.
Self-recognition in a mirror is believed to be related to empathic tendencies (being able to identify and understand others' feelings) and the ability of an individual to distinguish oneself from others, a characteristic that evolved independently in several branches of animals, the scientists said.
Due to elephants' social complexity, it had previously been predicted that they would be able to recognize themselves in mirrors.
"We see highly complex behaviors such as self-awareness and self-other distinction in intelligent animals with well-established social systems," researcher Joshua Plotnik, of the Yerkes Center, said in a prepared statement.
"The social complexity of the elephant, its well-known altruistic behavior and, of course, its huge brain, made the elephant a logical candidate species for testing in front of a mirror," Plotnik said.
This study included three female elephants at the Bronx Zoo in New York who were exposed to a jumbo-sized mirror eight feet high by eight feet wide. When they were in front of the mirror, the elephants tested the image by making repetitive body movements and inspecting themselves, such as putting their trunks inside their mouths, a part of their body they usually can't see.
The elephants did not react socially to their images and did not seem to mistake their reflection for that of other elephants.
"Elephants have been tested in front of mirrors before, but previous studies used relatively small mirrors kept out of the elephants' reach. This study is the first to test the animals in front of a huge mirror they could touch, rub against and try to look behind," Plotnik said.
The study appears in the current issue of the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.
Stella while I think this is a very interesting study I think the only way they could have known whether or not the female elephants where self aware would have been to havetheir baby along side of them. Momma would have made some defensive and/or protective gestures if she thought the creature in the mirror was going to harm her little one. Maybe put tusk on her too! But anyway good find.
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flower, did a man pee in your cornflakes? ??? What's with the hatred? ::)
Men have invented almost everything in the world. A man invented electricity, created cars and airplanes, built houses and skyscrapers etc etc etc. I bet a man invented the internet also. A man invented weapons to kill the animals you eat. If you hate men so much don't use our inventions and go live in the desert and eat berries. >:(
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originally on the Pet Board, but was suggested that it would make a good topic elsewhere.
the purpose of all men on earth is to serve you Amy... ;D
:)
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flower, did a man pee in your cornflakes? ??? What's with the hatred? ::)
Men have invented almost everything in the world. A man invented electricity, created cars and airplanes, built houses and skyscrapers etc etc etc. I bet a man invented the internet also. A man invented weapons to kill the animals you eat. If you hate men so much don't use our inventions and go live in the desert and eat berries. >:(
In Flower's defense, she is referring to "Mankind" i.e, human beings she was not targeting the gender. Her arguement/view point is that Mankind is not necessary for this earth to function/exist. In other words we (mankind) are merely parasites; living off the earth! Plants and animals on ther other hand recycle and keep it flowing.
Correct me if I am wrong here Flower.
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I would prefer to have an actual example of man having a purpose and doing it. So far man = 0 ;D
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I saw that video. :-\ But man is supposed to be the better species, so an animal attack (which in the example you gave was the guy's fault for doing what he did and getting close to them, not saying he deserved it, but I can't blame the animal) from a lesser species is understandable, but an actual thought out act from another human being is the worse crime in the context of morals and values IMO.
So far I am not even slightly swayed. 8)
Asked yourself how are you typing on a keyboard and understanding everything around you, your surroundings, religions of the world that are true upholding one's self and all God's creations---then get in your car drive down to the park, and then look at your dogs and wonder why that can't do what you just did...Free Will is part of the answer..
and if it weren't for man, you wouldn't have a dog, or a pet, or should I say, ownership of another creature that you ultimately deem inferior to you, because you must own it.
To rationalize what man hasn't done, or his purpose is to rationalize what you are doing to contribute to the lack of "purpose".
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My purpose is to do alott of drugs and fuck as many women as i can
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originally on the Pet Board, but was suggested that it would make a good topic elsewhere.
Tell me, what has man done for the Earth? Has man contributed anything? What is man's purpose? I see no purpose for man. Man destroys and wastes everything he comes in contact with. Man is at the top of the food chain, but even that is not needed on Earth. Animals like sharks and lions that are at the top in the animal food chain have a purpose, they eat the old and sick and cull numbers of animals keeping a balance so everything may go on. Man has to breed animals to survive so we don't even have the purpose of keeping a balance in nature. Man has caused extinction of many animals either by over hunting, destroying habitats, or by introducing non native species that then kill off the native species. How much scrambling has man done to try and fix it's mistakes? Man wages war on each other over anything. You don't see animals going to war on each other to the point that they have destroyed their homelands and are barely surviving.
Seems like man has done a lot with it's ability for higher thinking. ::)
Man is expendable on this planet, animals are not, I think that puts one higher than the other. :)
The purpose of man is to bust loads all over cute little skanks like you. Enjoy! :-* ;D
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The purpose of man is to bust loads all over cute little skanks like you. Enjoy! :-* ;D
finally a good answer!! ;D
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No purpose. We are just another species of African apes. Only difference is our evolution "took off" and our brains grew, and we became able to ask questions such as these.
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No purpose. We are just another species of African apes. Only difference is our evolution "took off" and our brains grew, and we became able to ask questions such as these.
Yes.
We're at a point where we have a certain amount of control over our destiny.. But that's about it.
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finally a good answer!! ;D
fawk
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Hey flower I guess you would rather this be a Planet of the Apes?...sure Humans prey on each other just like other species prey on each other...it's about power and survival...if aliens came from another planet believe me they would either subjugate us or annihilate us...if you check history you will see that every time two different cultures or civilizations come into contact, the stronger or superior one dominates the other and eventually tries to destroy the weaker one...This is why I hope no alien species ever visits the earth... they would definitely try to enslave, eat, or destroy us...we are okay well enough ALONE...
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flower is from an alien civilization. they want us to think we have no purpose so that we won't have the heart to put up a struggle when they take over.
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Hey flower I guess you would rather this be a Planet of the Apes?...sure Humans prey on each other just like other species prey on each other...it's about power and survival...if aliens came from another planet believe me they would either subjugate us or annihilate us...if you check history you will see that every time two different cultures or civilizations come into contact, the stronger or superior one dominates the other and eventually tries to destroy the weaker one...This is why I hope no alien species ever visits the earth... they would definitely try to enslave, eat, or destroy us...we are okay well enough ALONE...
on the contrary, flower will give it up to apes too...
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originally on the Pet Board, but was suggested that it would make a good topic elsewhere.
Tell me, what has man done for the Earth? Has man contributed anything? What is man's purpose? I see no purpose for man. Man destroys and wastes everything he comes in contact with. Man is at the top of the food chain, but even that is not needed on Earth. Animals like sharks and lions that are at the top in the animal food chain have a purpose, they eat the old and sick and cull numbers of animals keeping a balance so everything may go on. Man has to breed animals to survive so we don't even have the purpose of keeping a balance in nature. Man has caused extinction of many animals either by over hunting, destroying habitats, or by introducing non native species that then kill off the native species. How much scrambling has man done to try and fix it's mistakes? Man wages war on each other over anything. You don't see animals going to war on each other to the point that they have destroyed their homelands and are barely surviving.
Seems like man has done a lot with it's ability for higher thinking. ::)
Man is expendable on this planet, animals are not, I think that puts one higher than the other. :)
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/rossuk/c-anthro.htm
:)
why is the universe the way it is...?
cause if it wasn't so we wouldn't be here to see it..!
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Gee, Flower total avoidance of my answer, because as I said, if man has no purpose, rationalize what purpose you have, or what you are doing to contribute man's (human kind's) non-purpose.
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Flower and Knny should both consider killing themselves to help lighten the burden on the planets animals.
Afterall they (Knny + Flower) both require Food, that requires Farming, that requires fertilizers and pesticides, that takes land from wildlife and plants...
The homes they live in could be inhabited by feral dogs and cats and rats etc.
This would make room for a lot of animals.
They would no longer consume fuel for driving to get their food and other necessities of life.
They would no longer use up precious clean water to drink or occasionally take a shower..
They would not use up electric and other heating fuels...
Why dont all the PETA and PET-Tards commit mass suicide and make the world a better place for animals!
I will gladly pay for the Cyanide.