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Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: 24KT on October 04, 2007, 09:10:35 PM
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An election for Provincial Premiere (Governor) has been called for October 10 in the province of Ontario.
One candidate is running on a platform that advocates taking tax dollars to fund private faith based schools.
The other candidate is firmly against it.
Who has their heads up their butts on this issue. How would you feel as a tax payer on this issue.
Should monies now allocated towards public education be divied up among private schools to fund religious education?
Or should private religious schools fund their own schools wherein they can teach whatever they want.
Yes or No?
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United States
In the 1980s, the Reagan administration pushed for vouchers, as did the current Bush administration in the initial education-reform proposals leading up to the No Child Left Behind Act. So far, voucher programs have persisted only in about half a dozen states and districts; most are offered to students in low-income families, low-performing schools, or special-education programs.
Milwaukee led the way in 1990 and now has nearly 15,000 students using vouchers. The 2006-2007 school year will mark the first time in Milwaukee that more than $100 million will be paid in vouchers.[6] Twenty-six percent of Milwaukee students will receive public funding to attend schools outside the traditional Milwaukee Public School system. In fact, if the voucher program alone were considered a school district, it would mark the sixth-largest district in Wisconsin. St. Anthony Catholic School, located on Milwaukee's south side, boasts 966 voucher students, meaning that it very likely receives more public money for general school support of a parochial elementary or high school than any before it in American history. Under the current state formula for paying school vouchers, however, Milwaukee residents pay more in property taxes for voucher students than for students attending public schools. This imbalance has received considerable criticism, and is the subject of 2007 legislative proposals designed to alter the formula.
The school voucher question in the United States has also received a considerable amount of judicial review in the early 2000s.
A program launched in the city of Cleveland in 1995 and authorized by the state of Ohio was challenged in court on the grounds that it violated both the federal constitutional principle of separation of church and state and the guarantee of religious liberty in the Ohio Constitution. These claims were rejected by the Ohio Supreme Court, but the federal claims were upheld by the local federal district court and by the Sixth Circuit appeals court.[7] The fact that nearly all of the families using vouchers attended Catholic schools in the Cleveland area was cited in the decisions.[8] In a 2002 ruling in the case Zelman v. Simmons-Harris, the Supreme Court of the United States ruled in a 5-4 vote that the Ohio program was constitutional. The justices cited the private choice made by the parents and affirmed that the ultimate purpose (improving elementary education) was secular.
In 2006, the Florida Supreme Court struck down legislation known as the Opportunity Scholarship Program (OSP), which would have implemented a system of school vouchers in Florida.[9] The court ruled that the OSP violated article IX, section 1(a) of the Florida Constitution: "Adequate provision shall be made by law for a uniform, efficient, safe, secure, and high quality system of free public schools."[10]
Political support for school vouchers in the United States is mixed. On the left/right spectrum, conservatives are more likely to support vouchers. Some state legislatures have enacted voucher laws. As of 2006, the federal government operates the largest voucher program, for evacuees from the region affected by Hurricane Katrina.[citation needed]
Some public opinion surveys show that support for vouchers has increased in the last few years,[11] although just how much is debatable. Majorities seem to favor improving existing schools over providing vouchers, yet as many as 40% of those surveyed admit that they don't know enough to form an opinion or don't understand the system of school vouchers.[12]
In November of 2000, a voucher system proposed by Tim Draper was placed on the California ballot as Proposition 38. It was unusual among school voucher proposals in that it required neither accreditation on the part of schools accepting vouchers, nor proof of need on the part of families applying for them; neither did it have any requirement that schools accept vouchers as payment-in-full, nor any other provision to guarantee a reduction in the real cost of private school tuition. The measure was defeated by a final percentage tally of 70.6 to 29.4.
A state-wide universal school voucher system was passed in Utah, though some voters and others are pursuing a referendum to remove it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_voucher#United_States
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United States
In the 1980s, the Reagan administration pushed for vouchers, as did the current Bush administration in the initial education-reform proposals leading up to the No Child Left Behind Act. So far, voucher programs have persisted only in about half a dozen states and districts; most are offered to students in low-income families, low-performing schools, or special-education programs.
Milwaukee led the way in 1990 and now has nearly 15,000 students using vouchers. The 2006-2007 school year will mark the first time in Milwaukee that more than $100 million will be paid in vouchers.[6] Twenty-six percent of Milwaukee students will receive public funding to attend schools outside the traditional Milwaukee Public School system. In fact, if the voucher program alone were considered a school district, it would mark the sixth-largest district in Wisconsin. St. Anthony Catholic School, located on Milwaukee's south side, boasts 966 voucher students, meaning that it very likely receives more public money for general school support of a parochial elementary or high school than any before it in American history. Under the current state formula for paying school vouchers, however, Milwaukee residents pay more in property taxes for voucher students than for students attending public schools. This imbalance has received considerable criticism, and is the subject of 2007 legislative proposals designed to alter the formula.
The school voucher question in the United States has also received a considerable amount of judicial review in the early 2000s.
A program launched in the city of Cleveland in 1995 and authorized by the state of Ohio was challenged in court on the grounds that it violated both the federal constitutional principle of separation of church and state and the guarantee of religious liberty in the Ohio Constitution. These claims were rejected by the Ohio Supreme Court, but the federal claims were upheld by the local federal district court and by the Sixth Circuit appeals court.[7] The fact that nearly all of the families using vouchers attended Catholic schools in the Cleveland area was cited in the decisions.[8] In a 2002 ruling in the case Zelman v. Simmons-Harris, the Supreme Court of the United States ruled in a 5-4 vote that the Ohio program was constitutional. The justices cited the private choice made by the parents and affirmed that the ultimate purpose (improving elementary education) was secular.
In 2006, the Florida Supreme Court struck down legislation known as the Opportunity Scholarship Program (OSP), which would have implemented a system of school vouchers in Florida.[9] The court ruled that the OSP violated article IX, section 1(a) of the Florida Constitution: "Adequate provision shall be made by law for a uniform, efficient, safe, secure, and high quality system of free public schools."[10]
Political support for school vouchers in the United States is mixed. On the left/right spectrum, conservatives are more likely to support vouchers. Some state legislatures have enacted voucher laws. As of 2006, the federal government operates the largest voucher program, for evacuees from the region affected by Hurricane Katrina.[citation needed]
Some public opinion surveys show that support for vouchers has increased in the last few years,[11] although just how much is debatable. Majorities seem to favor improving existing schools over providing vouchers, yet as many as 40% of those surveyed admit that they don't know enough to form an opinion or don't understand the system of school vouchers.[12]
In November of 2000, a voucher system proposed by Tim Draper was placed on the California ballot as Proposition 38. It was unusual among school voucher proposals in that it required neither accreditation on the part of schools accepting vouchers, nor proof of need on the part of families applying for them; neither did it have any requirement that schools accept vouchers as payment-in-full, nor any other provision to guarantee a reduction in the real cost of private school tuition. The measure was defeated by a final percentage tally of 70.6 to 29.4.
A state-wide universal school voucher system was passed in Utah, though some voters and others are pursuing a referendum to remove it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_voucher#United_States
is that a No?
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is that a No?
That's actually a quote from Wiki. ::)
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That's actually a quote from Wiki. ::)
yes but what's YOUR opinion?
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is that a No?
{giggle}
Maybe I should simplify this for the feeble minded? those who need it broken down even further?
As a Christian, would you want to see your tax dollars spent to support Islamic schools basing their curriculum on Sharia law and the Qu'uran?
Yes or No?
As an atheist, would you want to see your tax dollars supporting a secular public school system, or would you have no problem if your tax dollars were distributed to (insert religion here) to fund schools basing their curriculum on the teaching of the Baghwan Sri Rajneesh?
Yes or No?
I am not asking what Wiki says, ...I am asking how each one of YOU feel about this,
...and would you vote for a candidate proposing such a platform?
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{giggle}
Maybe I should simplify this for the feeble minded? those who need it broken down even further?
As a Christian, would you want to see your tax dollars spent to support Islamic schools basing their curriculum on Sharia law and the Qu'uran?
Yes or No?
As an atheist, would you want to see your tax dollars supporting a secular public school system, or would you have no problem if your tax dollars were distributed to (insert religion here) to fund schools basing their curriculum on the teaching of the Baghwan Sri Rajneesh?
Yes or No?
I am not asking what Wiki says, ...I am asking how each one of YOU feel about this,
...and would you vote for a candidate proposing such a platform?
in an ideal world we would have a secular society that allow the freedom of all "religious" belief and expression including of course the choice of no religious belief or even the complete rejection of religion in it's present form
freedom of BELIEF
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yes but what's YOUR opinion?
Against my better judgment, I will answer this one. I don't support school vouchers. I part company with those who believe this does not create church-state separation problems.
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Against my better judgment, I will answer this one. I don't support school vouchers. I part company with those who believe this does not create church-state separation problems.
Beach,
This is not about "school vouchers". I believe you're attempting to apply an 'American' model to a Canadian situation.
This is not about failing schools, or substandard schools. It is about one politician declaring that public funds should be used to support private faith-based schools. No one is saying that Ontario public schools are failing children. This is one politician saying that public monies that currently support a public secular school system, should be diverted to religious groups to fund faith-based education using the curriculae of their choice?
do you support that?
Yes or No?
Would you vote for a politician or Governor who made that the cornerstone of his or her platform?
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in an ideal world we would have a secular society that allow the freedom of all "religious" belief and expression including of course the choice of no religious belief or even the complete rejection of religion in it's present form
freedom of BELIEF
This is not about freedom of religion or freedom of belief. People are free to believe whatever they choose.
What I am asking is should a secular society be forced use public taxpayer monies to fund private religious schools?
Guys this is really a very simple question.
Yes ...or No?
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in an ideal world we would have a secular society that allow the freedom of all "religious" belief and expression including of course the choice of no religious belief or even the complete rejection of religion in it's present form
freedom of BELIEF
which we don't currently have
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This is not about freedom of religion or freedom of belief. People are free to believe whatever they choose.
What I am asking is should a secular society be forced use public taxpayer monies to fund private religious schools?
Guys this is really a very simple question.
Yes ...or No?
absolutely not
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Hell NOOO
Schools are for education, not indoctrination.
Schools are for science and reason, not superstition and magic.
Schools are for making kids smart, not making them stupid.
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so the big bang theory isn't indoctrination? You can prove aspects of evolution but you have zero evidence of the creation of civilization. Basically we have the same amount of evidence....so how do you say your lack of eidence should take precedence to my lack of evidence?
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so the big bang theory isn't indoctrination? You can prove aspects of evolution but you have zero evidence of the creation of civilization. Basically we have the same amount of evidence....so how do you say your lack of eidence should take precedence to my lack of evidence?
That is a total load of horse dung. "Same amount of evidence" you say?
You are the poster child for a failed education system. I am sorry your schools failed you.
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Beach,
This is not about "school vouchers". I believe you're attempting to apply an 'American' model to a Canadian situation.
This is not about failing schools, or substandard schools. It is about one politician declaring that public funds should be used to support private faith-based schools. No one is saying that Ontario public schools are failing children. This is one politician saying that public monies that currently support a public secular school system, should be diverted to religious groups to fund faith-based education using the curriculae of their choice?
do you support that?
Yes or No?
Would you vote for a politician or Governor who made that the cornerstone of his or her platform?
If you're asking me whether I support an initiative in Canada, my answer is: I don't care what Canada does or doesn't do.
If you're asking me about supporting a politician based on this issue, my answer is: I don't know. Depends on what else he stands for. I'm typically not a single issue voter . . . except for taxes.
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That is a total load of horse dung. "Same amount of evidence" you say?
You are the poster child for a failed education system. I am sorry your schools failed you.
::)
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That is a total load of horse dung. "Same amount of evidence" you say?
You are the poster child for a failed education system. I am sorry your schools failed you.
prove me wrong douchebag......bet you will have an awful hard time doing it. See we both have our theories on how civilization was created. (good thing I learned what a theory was) so tell me how your theory is any more correct than mine?
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Prove you wrong about what, sweetie?
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If you're asking me about supporting a politician based on this issue, my answer is: I don't know. Depends on what else he stands for. I'm typically not a single issue voter . . . except for taxes.
I will take this as a 'NO' vote because this candidate has nothing else behind his platform
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so the big bang theory isn't indoctrination? You can prove aspects of evolution but you have zero evidence of the creation of civilization. Basically we have the same amount of evidence....so how do you say your lack of eidence should take precedence to my lack of evidence?
Why is this so difficult for people to understand? I can't break it down any simpler. (http://www.jaguarenterprises.net/images/em/shrug.gif)
This is not about the big band theory, ...it is about whether public taxpayer monies should be diverted to private religious schools.
MM69, would you be okay if the Governor of your state wanted to take your tax dollars out of your local public school system to support Sheik bin Whatever's private Islamic madrassa or whatever they call those islamic schools?
YES or NO?
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Why is this so difficult for people to understand? I can't break it down any simpler. (http://www.jaguarenterprises.net/images/em/shrug.gif)
This is not about the big band theory, ...it is about whether public taxpayer monies should be diverted to private religious schools.
MM69, would you be okay if the Governor of your state wanted to take your tax dollars out of your local public school system to support Sheik bin Whatever's private Islamic madrassa or whatever they call those islamic schools?
YES or NO?
I am all for teaching ALL sides....Unlike 80% of the parents in the US I will not depend on the school to be the sole provider for education. I will tell my children my side at home then let them hear the rest and make their decisions on their own. I in no way indoctrinate or hide my kids from anything. They are free to make the dicisions they choose. If the school presents a class like "The history of the religions of the world" and presents all sides I am fine with that, just like I am fine with the science aspect. But everyside whould be presented.
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I am all for teaching ALL sides....Unlike 80% of the parents in the US I will not depend on the school to be the sole provider for education. I will tell my children my side at home then let them hear the rest and make their decisions on their own. I in no way indoctrinate or hide my kids from anything. They are free to make the dicisions they choose. If the school presents a class like "The history of the religions of the world" and presents all sides I am fine with that, just like I am fine with the science aspect. But everyside whould be presented.
There are so many sides, though. I mean if they have to start teacing about Wicca, Fairytales, Islam, Jainism, Buddhism, Mormonism, etc etc etc
Not worth the trouble teaching a class on "The history of the religions of the world" IMO.
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There are so many sides, though. I mean if they have to start teacing about Wicca, Fairytales, Islam, Jainism, Buddhism, Mormonism, etc etc etc
Not worth the trouble teaching a class on "The history of the religions of the world" IMO.
I know it is a college course, I believe it concentrates on the "major" religions...Christianity, Muslim, Buddhist etc...I mean I honestly don't get my panties in a bunch on schools not teaching creationism..I don't really care, I wil ltake care of that at home. I only get ticked when they start this seperation of church and state thing and saying that big bang is a "truth".....No one has been able to show me where the constitution states "seperation of church and state"
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Yeah, Heaven forbid we should teach our children about science... I mean, Sweet Jesus, they just might learn something...
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Yeah, Heaven forbid we should teach our children about science... I mean, Sweet Jesus, they just might learn something...
Where did I say anything about science?
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I know it is a college course, I believe it concentrates on the "major" religions...Christianity, Muslim, Buddhist etc...I mean I honestly don't get my panties in a bunch on schools not teaching creationism..I don't really care, I wil ltake care of that at home. I only get ticked when they start this seperation of church and state thing and saying that big bang is a "truth".....No one has been able to show me where the constitution states "seperation of church and state"
Virtually all modern astrophysicists subscribe to the big bang theory; ever read Stephen Hawkings' 'A Brief History of Time'? I take you are a Phd in Physics and can rightly criticise these dumb physicists? ::)
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I know it is a college course, I believe it concentrates on the "major" religions...Christianity, Muslim, Buddhist etc...I mean I honestly don't get my panties in a bunch on schools not teaching creationism..I don't really care, I wil ltake care of that at home. I only get ticked when they start this seperation of church and state thing and saying that big bang is a "truth".....No one has been able to show me where the constitution states "seperation of church and state"
You tell your children that the Genesis myth is factual account of things?
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subscribe to the big bang theory
When they call it big bang fact get back to me...
I have stated my thoughts on Genisis version many times...but for the newbie. I do not take the bible literally, but believe in intelligent design. Hope that sums it up for you. I am a creationevolutionist...b elieve the world was created intelligently and it has proceeded to evolve from there
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subscribe to the big bang theory
When they call it big bang fact get back to me...
I have stated my thoughts on Genisis version many times...but for the newbie. I do not take the bible literally, but believe in intelligent design. Hope that sums it up for you. I am a creationevolutionist...b elieve the world was created intelligently and it has proceeded to evolve from there
A theory in science is quite different to its convential usage. At university they teach a physics class called atomic theory and they would never call it atomic fact.
a plausible or scientifically acceptable general principle or body of principles offered to explain phenomena <the wave theory of light>
Intelligent Design huh? I believe in Stupid Design, which is why the incompetent creator put an entertainment complex in the middle of a sewer system....
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{GREAT BIG SIGH}
Ahem...
The question is NOT do we teach our kids all theories and letthem make up their own mind.
It is:
Do you support the idea of over a half a billion dollars of your tax payer monies being taken out of the public school system, in order to support private Islamic schools, or private Wiccan schools, or private (insert religion here) schools?
YES or NO?
Sheesh, ...can't anyone answer a straight question anymore? ;D
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{GREAT BIG SIGH}
Ahem...
The question is NOT do we teach our kids all theories and letthem make up their own mind.
It is:
Do you support the idea of over a half a billion dollars of your tax payer monies being taken out of the public school system, in order to support private Islamic schools, or private Wiccan schools, or private (insert religion here) schools?
YES or NO?
Sheesh, ...can't anyone answer a straight question anymore? ;D
Doesn't seem like anyone here (believers or non-believers) seem to support it
How may more times do you need to hear it?
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO
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Doesn't seem like anyone here (believers or non-believers) seem to support it
How may more times do you need to hear it?
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO
So why is everyone so surprised that I consistently vote for the Liberal Party?
Our present premiere Dalton McGuinty (Liberal) himself a product of faith based education (educated in the Catholic School system) is against it. But John Tory (Conservative) built his entire platform around it. It was a cheap attempt to get at the "ethnic" vote, as most immigrants tend o vote liberal (at least in Ontario). It backfired big time. Now the Liberals, despite breaking election promise after election promise, and now going to end up with a another majority government in this province. mike Harris and the Conservatives did such a number on this province 10 years ago, I doubt the conservatives will ever get back in power here, until this present generation dies off.
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So why is everyone so surprised that I consistently vote for the Liberal Party?
Our present premiere Dalton McGuinty (Liberal) himself a product of faith based education (educated in the Catholic School system) is against it. But John Tory (Conservative) built his entire platform around it. It was a cheap attempt to get at the "ethnic" vote, as most immigrants tend o vote liberal (at least in Ontario). It backfired big time. Now the Liberals, despite breaking election promise after election promise, and now going to end up with a another majority government in this province. mike Harris and the Conservatives did such a number on this province 10 years ago, I doubt the conservatives will ever get back in power here, until this present generation dies off.
is that your real question?
I thought it you just wanted a simple yes or no
I don't live in Canada, know nothing about the politics and don't really see any reason to care
We've got enough things to worry about with our own government and unfortunately our government already spends my tax $$$ on "faith based" nonsense
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is that your real question?
I thought it you just wanted a simple yes or no
I don't live in Canada, know nothing about the politics and don't really see any reason to care
We've got enough things to worry about with our own government and unfortunately our government already spends my tax $$$ on "faith based" nonsense
Don't be mean Straw Man, ...or I'll light a match under your butt. ;D
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Don't be mean Straw Man, ...or I'll light a match under your butt. ;D
was I being mean? - I thought I was just being expedient
I don't live in Canada and know nothing about the politics
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The issue is about education....many if not most Catholic schools produce a better product then public schools. Many of these schools are in lower income areas, and parents want "help" if they choose to send their kids to that school. A portion of their tax dollars are going to the local public school. They want that money to offset some of the tuition fees of those schools. They aren't going there for the religious purposes as much as a better more diciplined invironment for their children. I went to catholic school for 12 years. I don't post on the religious board and I don't go to church. I don't really care. I wasn't indoctrinated. We had jews and other religions who went but they went for the education I'm not sure what happens in Christian schools, but atleast at the High School level, u don't have alot of overtly religious classwork. I had some world religion classes and some ethics stuff that fell under the Religion department, but that was about it. I think that as long as the Schools adhere the curriculum/rules set forth by the government. Then its no big deal.
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Let's make this clear: creation science is not science at all; it is not testable, verifiable, falsifiable or anything else for that matter.
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The issue is about education....many if not most Catholic schools produce a better product then public schools. Many of these schools are in lower income areas, and parents want "help" if they choose to send their kids to that school. A portion of their tax dollars are going to the local public school. They want that money to offset some of the tuition fees of those schools. They aren't going there for the religious purposes as much as a better more diciplined invironment for their children. I went to catholic school for 12 years. I don't post on the religious board and I don't go to church. I don't really care. I wasn't indoctrinated. We had jews and other religions who went but they went for the education I'm not sure what happens in Christian schools, but atleast at the High School level, u don't have alot of overtly religious classwork. I had some world religion classes and some ethics stuff that fell under the Religion department, but that was about it. I think that as long as the Schools adhere the curriculum/rules set forth by the government. Then its no big deal.
The situation up here in Canada is different. We don't have the same crisis in our public school system, and we don't have the Catholic school system providing a better education. Up here the big question is do we divert funds from our public school system to fund private religious education, and in this province people are not for it. The biggest proponents of it are the Catholic, Jewish & Islamic religious organizations, but the majority of Catholics, Jews, and Muslims are saying no way. this will not lead to the type of inclusiveness we're looking to create. The beauty of our system is that all faiths are educated 'together', and have the benefit of input & exposure to different ideas and different POVs. A public secular education goes a long way towards the integration of society, and the creation of faith based schools is counter-productive to the inclusive, tolerant, society we're building up here.
As crazy as it seems, I have friends who never met a non- Jewish person until they were 18. That's crazy!