Author Topic: Public Funding for Faith Based Schools  (Read 3380 times)

24KT

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Public Funding for Faith Based Schools
« on: October 04, 2007, 09:10:35 PM »
An election for Provincial Premiere (Governor) has been called for October 10 in the province of Ontario.

One candidate is running on a platform that advocates taking tax dollars to fund private faith based schools.

The other candidate is firmly against it.

Who has their heads up their butts on this issue. How would you feel as a tax payer on this issue.

Should monies now allocated towards public education be divied up among private schools to fund religious education?

Or should private religious schools fund their own schools wherein they can teach whatever they want.
Yes or No?
w

Dos Equis

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Re: Public Funding for Faith Based Schools
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2007, 10:26:46 PM »
United States
In the 1980s, the Reagan administration pushed for vouchers, as did the current Bush administration in the initial education-reform proposals leading up to the No Child Left Behind Act. So far, voucher programs have persisted only in about half a dozen states and districts; most are offered to students in low-income families, low-performing schools, or special-education programs.

Milwaukee led the way in 1990 and now has nearly 15,000 students using vouchers. The 2006-2007 school year will mark the first time in Milwaukee that more than $100 million will be paid in vouchers.[6] Twenty-six percent of Milwaukee students will receive public funding to attend schools outside the traditional Milwaukee Public School system. In fact, if the voucher program alone were considered a school district, it would mark the sixth-largest district in Wisconsin. St. Anthony Catholic School, located on Milwaukee's south side, boasts 966 voucher students, meaning that it very likely receives more public money for general school support of a parochial elementary or high school than any before it in American history. Under the current state formula for paying school vouchers, however, Milwaukee residents pay more in property taxes for voucher students than for students attending public schools. This imbalance has received considerable criticism, and is the subject of 2007 legislative proposals designed to alter the formula.

The school voucher question in the United States has also received a considerable amount of judicial review in the early 2000s.

A program launched in the city of Cleveland in 1995 and authorized by the state of Ohio was challenged in court on the grounds that it violated both the federal constitutional principle of separation of church and state and the guarantee of religious liberty in the Ohio Constitution. These claims were rejected by the Ohio Supreme Court, but the federal claims were upheld by the local federal district court and by the Sixth Circuit appeals court.[7] The fact that nearly all of the families using vouchers attended Catholic schools in the Cleveland area was cited in the decisions.[8] In a 2002 ruling in the case Zelman v. Simmons-Harris, the Supreme Court of the United States ruled in a 5-4 vote that the Ohio program was constitutional. The justices cited the private choice made by the parents and affirmed that the ultimate purpose (improving elementary education) was secular.

In 2006, the Florida Supreme Court struck down legislation known as the Opportunity Scholarship Program (OSP), which would have implemented a system of school vouchers in Florida.[9] The court ruled that the OSP violated article IX, section 1(a) of the Florida Constitution: "Adequate provision shall be made by law for a uniform, efficient, safe, secure, and high quality system of free public schools."[10]

Political support for school vouchers in the United States is mixed. On the left/right spectrum, conservatives are more likely to support vouchers. Some state legislatures have enacted voucher laws. As of 2006, the federal government operates the largest voucher program, for evacuees from the region affected by Hurricane Katrina.[citation needed]

Some public opinion surveys show that support for vouchers has increased in the last few years,[11] although just how much is debatable. Majorities seem to favor improving existing schools over providing vouchers, yet as many as 40% of those surveyed admit that they don't know enough to form an opinion or don't understand the system of school vouchers.[12]

In November of 2000, a voucher system proposed by Tim Draper was placed on the California ballot as Proposition 38. It was unusual among school voucher proposals in that it required neither accreditation on the part of schools accepting vouchers, nor proof of need on the part of families applying for them; neither did it have any requirement that schools accept vouchers as payment-in-full, nor any other provision to guarantee a reduction in the real cost of private school tuition. The measure was defeated by a final percentage tally of 70.6 to 29.4.

A state-wide universal school voucher system was passed in Utah, though some voters and others are pursuing a referendum to remove it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_voucher#United_States

Straw Man

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Re: Public Funding for Faith Based Schools
« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2007, 10:30:28 PM »
United States
In the 1980s, the Reagan administration pushed for vouchers, as did the current Bush administration in the initial education-reform proposals leading up to the No Child Left Behind Act. So far, voucher programs have persisted only in about half a dozen states and districts; most are offered to students in low-income families, low-performing schools, or special-education programs.

Milwaukee led the way in 1990 and now has nearly 15,000 students using vouchers. The 2006-2007 school year will mark the first time in Milwaukee that more than $100 million will be paid in vouchers.[6] Twenty-six percent of Milwaukee students will receive public funding to attend schools outside the traditional Milwaukee Public School system. In fact, if the voucher program alone were considered a school district, it would mark the sixth-largest district in Wisconsin. St. Anthony Catholic School, located on Milwaukee's south side, boasts 966 voucher students, meaning that it very likely receives more public money for general school support of a parochial elementary or high school than any before it in American history. Under the current state formula for paying school vouchers, however, Milwaukee residents pay more in property taxes for voucher students than for students attending public schools. This imbalance has received considerable criticism, and is the subject of 2007 legislative proposals designed to alter the formula.

The school voucher question in the United States has also received a considerable amount of judicial review in the early 2000s.

A program launched in the city of Cleveland in 1995 and authorized by the state of Ohio was challenged in court on the grounds that it violated both the federal constitutional principle of separation of church and state and the guarantee of religious liberty in the Ohio Constitution. These claims were rejected by the Ohio Supreme Court, but the federal claims were upheld by the local federal district court and by the Sixth Circuit appeals court.[7] The fact that nearly all of the families using vouchers attended Catholic schools in the Cleveland area was cited in the decisions.[8] In a 2002 ruling in the case Zelman v. Simmons-Harris, the Supreme Court of the United States ruled in a 5-4 vote that the Ohio program was constitutional. The justices cited the private choice made by the parents and affirmed that the ultimate purpose (improving elementary education) was secular.

In 2006, the Florida Supreme Court struck down legislation known as the Opportunity Scholarship Program (OSP), which would have implemented a system of school vouchers in Florida.[9] The court ruled that the OSP violated article IX, section 1(a) of the Florida Constitution: "Adequate provision shall be made by law for a uniform, efficient, safe, secure, and high quality system of free public schools."[10]

Political support for school vouchers in the United States is mixed. On the left/right spectrum, conservatives are more likely to support vouchers. Some state legislatures have enacted voucher laws. As of 2006, the federal government operates the largest voucher program, for evacuees from the region affected by Hurricane Katrina.[citation needed]

Some public opinion surveys show that support for vouchers has increased in the last few years,[11] although just how much is debatable. Majorities seem to favor improving existing schools over providing vouchers, yet as many as 40% of those surveyed admit that they don't know enough to form an opinion or don't understand the system of school vouchers.[12]

In November of 2000, a voucher system proposed by Tim Draper was placed on the California ballot as Proposition 38. It was unusual among school voucher proposals in that it required neither accreditation on the part of schools accepting vouchers, nor proof of need on the part of families applying for them; neither did it have any requirement that schools accept vouchers as payment-in-full, nor any other provision to guarantee a reduction in the real cost of private school tuition. The measure was defeated by a final percentage tally of 70.6 to 29.4.

A state-wide universal school voucher system was passed in Utah, though some voters and others are pursuing a referendum to remove it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_voucher#United_States

is that a No?

Dos Equis

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Re: Public Funding for Faith Based Schools
« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2007, 10:36:39 PM »
is that a No?

That's actually a quote from Wiki.   ::)

Straw Man

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Re: Public Funding for Faith Based Schools
« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2007, 10:41:00 PM »
That's actually a quote from Wiki.   ::)

yes but what's YOUR opinion?

24KT

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Re: Public Funding for Faith Based Schools
« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2007, 10:42:43 PM »
is that a No?

{giggle}

Maybe I should simplify this for the feeble minded? those who need it broken down even further?

As a Christian, would you want to see your tax dollars spent to support Islamic schools basing their curriculum on Sharia law and the Qu'uran?

Yes or No?

As an atheist, would you want to see your tax dollars supporting a secular public school system, or would you have no problem if your tax dollars were distributed to (insert religion here) to fund schools basing their curriculum on the teaching of the Baghwan Sri Rajneesh?

Yes or No?

I am not asking what Wiki says, ...I am asking how each one of YOU feel about this,
...and would you vote for a candidate proposing such a platform?
w

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Re: Public Funding for Faith Based Schools
« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2007, 10:54:33 PM »
{giggle}

Maybe I should simplify this for the feeble minded? those who need it broken down even further?

As a Christian, would you want to see your tax dollars spent to support Islamic schools basing their curriculum on Sharia law and the Qu'uran?

Yes or No?

As an atheist, would you want to see your tax dollars supporting a secular public school system, or would you have no problem if your tax dollars were distributed to (insert religion here) to fund schools basing their curriculum on the teaching of the Baghwan Sri Rajneesh?

Yes or No?

I am not asking what Wiki says, ...I am asking how each one of YOU feel about this,
...and would you vote for a candidate proposing such a platform?

in an ideal world we would have a secular society that allow the freedom of all "religious" belief and expression including of course the choice of no religious belief or even the complete rejection of religion in it's present form

freedom of BELIEF



 



Dos Equis

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Re: Public Funding for Faith Based Schools
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2007, 10:58:11 PM »
yes but what's YOUR opinion?


Against my better judgment, I will answer this one.  I don't support school vouchers.  I part company with those who believe this does not create church-state separation problems.   

24KT

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Re: Public Funding for Faith Based Schools
« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2007, 12:07:51 AM »
Against my better judgment, I will answer this one.  I don't support school vouchers.  I part company with those who believe this does not create church-state separation problems.   

Beach,
This is not about "school vouchers". I believe you're attempting to apply an 'American' model to a Canadian situation.

This is not about failing schools, or substandard schools. It is about one politician declaring that public funds should be used to support private faith-based schools. No one is saying that Ontario public schools are failing children. This is one politician saying that public monies that currently support a public secular school system, should be diverted to religious groups to fund faith-based education using the curriculae of their choice?

do you support that?

Yes or No?

Would you vote for a politician or Governor who made that the cornerstone of his or her platform?
w

24KT

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Re: Public Funding for Faith Based Schools
« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2007, 12:11:47 AM »
in an ideal world we would have a secular society that allow the freedom of all "religious" belief and expression including of course the choice of no religious belief or even the complete rejection of religion in it's present form

freedom of BELIEF


This is not about freedom of religion or freedom of belief. People are free to believe whatever they choose.

What I am asking is should a secular society be forced use public taxpayer monies to fund private religious schools?

Guys this is really a very simple question.

Yes ...or No?
w

militarymuscle69

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Re: Public Funding for Faith Based Schools
« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2007, 05:35:38 AM »
in an ideal world we would have a secular society that allow the freedom of all "religious" belief and expression including of course the choice of no religious belief or even the complete rejection of religion in it's present form

freedom of BELIEF



 




which we don't currently have
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Straw Man

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Re: Public Funding for Faith Based Schools
« Reply #11 on: October 05, 2007, 08:42:37 AM »
This is not about freedom of religion or freedom of belief. People are free to believe whatever they choose.

What I am asking is should a secular society be forced use public taxpayer monies to fund private religious schools?

Guys this is really a very simple question.

Yes ...or No?

absolutely not

columbusdude82

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Re: Public Funding for Faith Based Schools
« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2007, 09:23:05 AM »
Hell NOOO

Schools are for education, not indoctrination.

Schools are for science and reason, not superstition and magic.

Schools are for making kids smart, not making them stupid.

militarymuscle69

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Re: Public Funding for Faith Based Schools
« Reply #13 on: October 05, 2007, 09:53:52 AM »
so the big bang theory isn't indoctrination? You can prove aspects of evolution but you have zero evidence of the creation of civilization. Basically we have the same amount of evidence....so how do you say your lack of eidence should take precedence to my lack of evidence?
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columbusdude82

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Re: Public Funding for Faith Based Schools
« Reply #14 on: October 05, 2007, 09:56:23 AM »
so the big bang theory isn't indoctrination? You can prove aspects of evolution but you have zero evidence of the creation of civilization. Basically we have the same amount of evidence....so how do you say your lack of eidence should take precedence to my lack of evidence?

That is a total load of horse dung. "Same amount of evidence" you say?

You are the poster child for a failed education system. I am sorry your schools failed you.

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Re: Public Funding for Faith Based Schools
« Reply #15 on: October 05, 2007, 10:45:59 AM »
Beach,
This is not about "school vouchers". I believe you're attempting to apply an 'American' model to a Canadian situation.

This is not about failing schools, or substandard schools. It is about one politician declaring that public funds should be used to support private faith-based schools. No one is saying that Ontario public schools are failing children. This is one politician saying that public monies that currently support a public secular school system, should be diverted to religious groups to fund faith-based education using the curriculae of their choice?

do you support that?

Yes or No?

Would you vote for a politician or Governor who made that the cornerstone of his or her platform?

If you're asking me whether I support an initiative in Canada, my answer is:  I don't care what Canada does or doesn't do. 

If you're asking me about supporting a politician based on this issue, my answer is:  I don't know.  Depends on what else he stands for.  I'm typically not a single issue voter . . . except for taxes. 

Dos Equis

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Re: Public Funding for Faith Based Schools
« Reply #16 on: October 05, 2007, 10:46:23 AM »
That is a total load of horse dung. "Same amount of evidence" you say?

You are the poster child for a failed education system. I am sorry your schools failed you.

 ::)

militarymuscle69

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Re: Public Funding for Faith Based Schools
« Reply #17 on: October 05, 2007, 01:13:46 PM »
That is a total load of horse dung. "Same amount of evidence" you say?

You are the poster child for a failed education system. I am sorry your schools failed you.

prove me wrong douchebag......bet you will have an awful hard time doing it. See we both have our theories on how civilization was created. (good thing I learned what a theory was) so tell me how your theory is any more correct than mine?
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columbusdude82

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Re: Public Funding for Faith Based Schools
« Reply #18 on: October 05, 2007, 01:17:42 PM »
Prove you wrong about what, sweetie?

24KT

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Re: Public Funding for Faith Based Schools
« Reply #19 on: October 05, 2007, 05:12:31 PM »

If you're asking me about supporting a politician based on this issue, my answer is:  I don't know.  Depends on what else he stands for.  I'm typically not a single issue voter . . . except for taxes. 

I will take this as a 'NO' vote because this candidate has nothing else behind his platform
w

24KT

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Re: Public Funding for Faith Based Schools
« Reply #20 on: October 05, 2007, 05:18:32 PM »
so the big bang theory isn't indoctrination? You can prove aspects of evolution but you have zero evidence of the creation of civilization. Basically we have the same amount of evidence....so how do you say your lack of eidence should take precedence to my lack of evidence?

Why is this so difficult for people to understand? I can't break it down any simpler.

This is not about the big band theory, ...it is about whether public taxpayer monies should be diverted to private religious schools.

MM69, would you be okay if the Governor of your state wanted to take your tax dollars out of your local public school system to support Sheik bin Whatever's private Islamic madrassa or whatever they call those islamic schools?

YES or NO?
w

militarymuscle69

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Re: Public Funding for Faith Based Schools
« Reply #21 on: October 09, 2007, 05:12:02 AM »
Why is this so difficult for people to understand? I can't break it down any simpler.

This is not about the big band theory, ...it is about whether public taxpayer monies should be diverted to private religious schools.

MM69, would you be okay if the Governor of your state wanted to take your tax dollars out of your local public school system to support Sheik bin Whatever's private Islamic madrassa or whatever they call those islamic schools?

YES or NO?

I am all for teaching ALL sides....Unlike 80% of the parents in the US I will not depend on the school to be the sole provider for education. I will tell my children my side at home then let them hear the rest and make their decisions on their own. I in no way indoctrinate or hide my kids from anything. They are free to make the dicisions they choose. If the school presents a class like "The history of the religions of the world" and presents all sides I am fine with that, just like I am fine with the science aspect. But everyside whould be presented.
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columbusdude82

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Re: Public Funding for Faith Based Schools
« Reply #22 on: October 09, 2007, 05:42:44 AM »
I am all for teaching ALL sides....Unlike 80% of the parents in the US I will not depend on the school to be the sole provider for education. I will tell my children my side at home then let them hear the rest and make their decisions on their own. I in no way indoctrinate or hide my kids from anything. They are free to make the dicisions they choose. If the school presents a class like "The history of the religions of the world" and presents all sides I am fine with that, just like I am fine with the science aspect. But everyside whould be presented.

There are so many sides, though. I mean if they have to start teacing about Wicca, Fairytales, Islam, Jainism, Buddhism, Mormonism, etc etc etc

Not worth the trouble teaching a class on "The history of the religions of the world" IMO.

militarymuscle69

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Re: Public Funding for Faith Based Schools
« Reply #23 on: October 09, 2007, 06:00:01 AM »
There are so many sides, though. I mean if they have to start teacing about Wicca, Fairytales, Islam, Jainism, Buddhism, Mormonism, etc etc etc

Not worth the trouble teaching a class on "The history of the religions of the world" IMO.

I know it is a college course, I believe it concentrates on the "major" religions...Christianity, Muslim, Buddhist etc...I mean I honestly don't get my panties in a bunch on schools not teaching creationism..I don't really care, I wil ltake care of that at home. I only get ticked when they start this seperation of church and state thing and saying that big bang is a "truth".....No one has been able to show me where the constitution states "seperation of church and state"
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columbusdude82

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Re: Public Funding for Faith Based Schools
« Reply #24 on: October 09, 2007, 06:40:00 AM »
Yeah, Heaven forbid we should teach our children about science... I mean, Sweet Jesus, they just might learn something...