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Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: Nordic Superman on October 18, 2007, 02:33:15 AM
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One of the world's most eminent scientists was embroiled in an extraordinary row last night after he claimed that black people were less intelligent than white people and the idea that "equal powers of reason" were shared across racial groups was a delusion.
Link: http://news.independent.co.uk/sci_tech/article3067222.ece
Thoughts?
Personally, why can't this be true? How long do we have to wait until we can openly discuss such matters with everyone up in arms about petty morality?
Can only the good attributes to race based genetic advantages (ie. how many white 100m sprinters do you see?) be discussed?
Not saying I believe people of African descent are less intelligent, I'd have to research this issue further to come to that conclusion.
What about the possibility that racial differences also leaders to intellectual capacity?
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The may give fuel to the white supremacists but really we should let the chips fall where they will.
White/Black should get same level of education etc. and let society determine via proscribed methods (SATs, college) the individuals value.
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if there wasn't some trught behind it they wouldn't have to lower placement scores for blacks....situation came up in the Air Force a few years back when the percentage of blacks that got promoted was lower than whites. They proposed seperate tests for seperate races. Obviously not across the board but I think in general it has xome truths to it
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I think they do something like that with the police force in England.
I could be wrong.
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earth to getbig earth to getbig. This is true many Harvard psychologists came to this conclusion back in the 60's and wrote books on it.
Some people's names you may recognize that have suggested such: Darwin, Piaget, Jung, Locke.....
The may give fuel to the white supremacists but really we should let the chips fall where they will.
White/Black should get same level of education etc. and let society determine via proscribed methods (SATs, college) the individuals value.
I think you failed to grasp the science in it, they have done such studies and those of latino, and african decent usually fall 25 standard deviations below the sample population, it is like the Ferry theory only it has not evolved it seems to have devolved and become stale, they were predicting through industrilization that blacks and latinos would pick up more knowledge and hindsight, but have yet to show this.
Some theories account for the affirmitive action, and welfare shoppers, some label it as a motivational token reinforcer where they ae learned helplessness. Take california for instance they got rid of affirmitive action, and blacks are doing very good latinos also.
Regardless of the cry babies on this site who scream racism, the group that receives the real racism and bigotry are the native americans.
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im not sure but i think this watson guy was on craig venter's board. so im sure this research was used in the making of the first AI chromosome
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if there wasn't some trught behind it they wouldn't have to lower placement scores for blacks....situation came up in the Air Force a few years back when the percentage of blacks that got promoted was lower than whites. They proposed seperate tests for seperate races. Obviously not across the board but I think in general it has xome truths to it
I think that really does need to happen, in terms of the military. Positive reinforcement. TV stations such as UPN, are also cutting back on showing black women in violent, and depressed states they want to see if a link exists in that kind of modeled behavior.
guess time will tell.
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One of the potential problems here is a variety of possible abuses that can either lawfully or unlawfully be directed at a racial group that is factually on average to be of lower intelligence than another group, especially if the latter group happens to be the majority. Simply look at the creation of the Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade, which is one of many examples of a culturally, industrial, and militarily-superior peoples taking acute advantages over a weaker civilization. Superior, in meaning of industrialization and material gain. Perhaps the need to avoid past offenses is so great that the suppression of honest discussion on such a politically and socially charged subject is brutal and direct without offering logical arguments to discredit the subject altogether.
Perhaps people's sensitivities are so high that they would not want to be potentially stereotyped into being something other than they're not even if data presented that would lump a person in such a group anyways(individual and very small group stereotypes are often wrong, but are often correctly applied to large groups- just ask businesses). Proverbial Red Herrings are often thrown around when this subject matter arises, in which the dissenting side is usually assailed with unfounded terms such as racist, bigot, xenophobe, nativist, anti-semite, homophobe, etc...terms that in today's Western Society frighten people to such an extent that they often just give up the argument altogether and ultimately end up defending their name(saying things such as the now obligatory "I'm not a racist, but...." or "Well, I have many friends in the Hispanic community") or just walk away, even when that person is correct.
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In Western Society anyways, I think the quality of life for minorities can be raised drastically if things that were pandered to them such as affirmative action, race-based quotas, scholarships, and hundreds of others were eliminated. There are no outright racist laws on the books anymore. Giving people incentive to achieve is the solution. Fierce competition in the free market has given us an array of amazing products and upgrades to our quality of life...the same can be applied in human relations.
A big reason as to why our schools fail is because the academic pace of the classroom is reserved for the slowest, dumbest kid in class...leaving the brighter and often many of the average students bored and not given enough incentive to make improvements. The last-place kid should be given that incentive as a "kick in the ass" type of thing in order to catch up to his peers. Failure in all aspects is something that people need to avoid at all costs, not strive to attain in order to obtain some sort of victimhood status. Unfortunately, there can be severe monetary penalties to public schools that practice this.
Oh, and a little tidbit for y'all: Roy Boehm, founder of the modern Navy SEALS, actually chose a person who had finished LAST in basic underwater demolitions class to be in one of the first SEAL teams because he perceived that person to have the most drive and will to succeed.
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Oh, and a little tidbit for y'all: Roy Boehm, founder of the modern Navy SEALS, actually chose a person who had finished LAST in basic underwater demolitions class to be in one of the first SEAL teams because he perceived that person to have the most drive and will to succeed.
Really? That is pretty cool! !
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Big problem with science like this - they can only comfortably release whatever findings they have - based upon what society deems non-offensive.
it's a big can of worms. You can comfortably release group statistics - height, weight, even penis size, right? But to delve deeper into it, well, it incites groups who like to be offended. Inside every group/population subset is a small yet vocal contingent (who the media loves to cover due to the emotional responses from viewers).
You can't release data like this with the PC society of today. Despite however sound science might be behind it - a very small group will declare itself to be spokesmen for that whole group, and will boycott businesses/cost the scientists money, until they get their way.
Hypothetical. Suppose scientists found that Eskimos have higher intelligence, bigger penises, better cheekbones, and better bench press stats,,, than white guys. Would I be offended? Nah. I'd be interested in the stats, how they found them, if the science was sound, etc. It's simple observation - nothing to disparage me. But, there would be a small group of white guys who would act offended, and they'd be on FOX news tonight with OReilly, talking about this "racist" study which "destroys equality for whites".
Whiny bitches. yet in our PC society - which we readily admit is 90% non-thinking sheep- it works. it gives people something to talk about over "Everyone loves raymond" repeats with their Taco bell dinner and daily mindless chatter, designed of course, as it removes some coverage from the war or the billions spent each week on it.
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I've got my own opinions here, but I've never been to Africa (military trips don't count).
I can only speak on the intelligence of African-Americans or Blacks in this country.
One fact that many people overlook is this: just because Jim Crow laws were outlawed decades ago does not mean that their effects disappeared overnight.
Even though Blacks enjoy more opportunities than ever before, it'll take at least another hundred years to undo the effects of more than two centuries of intense, race-based oppression.
It's difficult for many Americans to admit this and many of us are eager to play the "Well, I have this Black friend who is very successful because he worked hard" card, but we cannot so quickly divorce ourselves from the reality of what was a very integral part of our not-so-distant past.
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It is discussed in academic circles.
There are many differences amongst races. There are varying bone structures, muscle and tendon insertions, fulcrum points at joints, etc., etc.
These things are generally not spoken about outside of academic circles. Unfortunately, as a general rule, people are too ignorant, bigoted, and unintelligent to rationally discuss such issues.
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but we cannot so quickly divorce ourselves from the reality of what was a very integral part of our not-so-distant past.
"Longer you hold on to something the more it drags you down."
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I've got my own opinions here, but I've never been to Africa (military trips don't count).
I can only speak on the intelligence of African-Americans or Blacks in this country.
One fact that many people overlook is this: just because Jim Crow laws were outlawed decades ago does not mean that their effects disappeared overnight.
Even though Blacks enjoy more opportunities than ever before, it'll take at least another hundred years to undo the effects of more than two centuries of intense, race-based oppression.
It's difficult for many Americans to admit this and many of us are eager to play the "Well, I have this Black friend who is very successful because he worked hard" card, but we cannot so quickly divorce ourselves from the reality of what was a very integral part of our not-so-distant past.
This is true. Jim Crow didn't come off the books until the 1960s. There were vestiges that lingered through the 1970s. Not that long ago.
Regarding this guy's comments: absolutely absurd. You cannot pick random people off the street and make judgments about their intellect based on the color of their skin. People need to get over these so-called race-based analyses already. What's the point?
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Not that long ago.
Older than dirt
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Older than dirt
Or not. Civil Rights Act of 1964 was 43 years ago. In other words, anyone who is 50 or 60 lived during the days of legalized segregation.
Brown v. Board, eliminating "separate but equal" schools was in 1954, 53 years ago. Took years for schools to desegregate.
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I think that really does need to happen, in terms of the military. Positive reinforcement. TV stations such as UPN, are also cutting back on showing black women in violent, and depressed states they want to see if a link exists in that kind of modeled behavior.
guess time will tell.
You think a black NCO should get an easier promotion test than me? Forget positive reinforcement, that would be promoting less qualified leaders
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So, Tre and Beach, you believe every race is 100% equal in intelligence?
Do you believe they're 100% equal in regards to 100m sprinting ability?
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So, Tre and Beach, you believe every race is 100% equal in intelligence?
Do you believe they're 100% equal in regards to 100m sprinting ability?
Loaded questions Nordic. :) What do you mean by intelligence? IQ? There are a couple of books by Daniel Goleman (Emotional Intelligence, and Working With Emotional Intelligence) that establish (to me anyway) that IQ does not = intelligence.
I don't believe there is any correlation between a person's race and their intelligence, including emotional intelligence. I think doing "studies" don't make a whole lot of sense, given the dilution of the races in this country.
Are all 100 percent equal when it comes to the 100 meters? Sure. Are all races 100 percent equal when it comes to professional golf? Hockey?
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So, Tre and Beach, you believe every race is 100% equal in intelligence?
Do you believe they're 100% equal in regards to 100m sprinting ability?
Sprinting has virtually nothing to do with academic achievement. US culture doesn't promote being a whole person, unlike Greek culture, which extolled the virtue of being in shape in the mind and body. Physical beauty and athletic achievement SHOULD go hand in hand with academic achievement.
Am Football players, Basketball players, and sprinters are only trained for what they do, thru-out their schooling. They get passes on academic tests and classes, which only hurt them in the long-run.
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Sprinting has virtually nothing to do with academic achievement. US culture doesn't promote being a whole person, unlike Greek culture, which extolled the virtue of being in shape in the mind and body. Physical beauty and athletic achievement SHOULD go hand in hand with academic achievement.
Am Football players, Basketball players, and sprinters are only trained for what they do, thru-out their schooling. They get passes on academic tests and classes, which only hurt them in the long-run.
Good points. Just look at how P.E. has been disappearing from school curricula.
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Sprinting has virtually nothing to do with academic achievement. US culture doesn't promote being a whole person, unlike Greek culture, which extolled the virtue of being in shape in the mind and body. Physical beauty and athletic achievement SHOULD go hand in hand with academic achievement.
Am Football players, Basketball players, and sprinters are only trained for what they do, thru-out their schooling. They get passes on academic tests and classes, which only hurt them in the long-run.
Well my point was factual, it was to make people think about the issue. Obviously the participants of this thread have had their liberal sensibilities shattered. "Oh no EVERY race is 100% equal in EVERYTHING". It was nothing to do with intelligence at all, it was to point out that different races have variations in genetics which may benefit them in certain areas. Why can't intelligence be one of these areas?
Try not to get all pissy, I said I had to research this myself before coming to a conclusion.
But Parker, haven't we had a thread in the past in which we discovered most inventions are by the white man? :-*
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Well my point was factual, it was to make people think about the issue. Obviously the participants of this thread have had their liberal sensibilities shattered. "Oh no EVERY race is 100% equal in EVERYTHING". It was nothing to do with intelligence at all, it was to point out that different races have variations in genetics which may benefit them in certain areas. Why can't intelligence be one of these areas?
Try not to get all pissy, I said I had to research this myself before coming to a conclusion.
But Parker, haven't we had a thread in the past in which we discovered most inventions are by the white man? :-*
We can't count most inventions in history and say, this was by a "white man, a black man, or a Asian man", that is impossible about as childish as "My Dad can beat Your dad".
Have you read the the book "Guns, Germs, and Steel" or if you don't want to read it, find the program, it might be on Youtube, but it is a eye-opener.
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Guns, Germs and Steel
http://www.pbs.org/gunsgermssteel/show/index.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guns,_Germs,_and_Steel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guns,_Germs,_and_Steel)
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Sprinting has virtually nothing to do with academic achievement. US culture doesn't promote being a whole person, unlike Greek culture, which extolled the virtue of being in shape in the mind and body. Physical beauty and athletic achievement SHOULD go hand in hand with academic achievement.
Am Football players, Basketball players, and sprinters are only trained for what they do, thru-out their schooling. They get passes on academic tests and classes, which only hurt them in the long-run.
Mnay have the opportunity for free education, why not take advantage of it? You can't tell me that these guys don't realize the value of an education, especially when they are done playing sports. It's funny how a place kicker will be more studious because he knows he is likely not to get drafted but a cornerback assumes he will. Plan for the worst and expect for the best is what these guys should be doing. I work with college athletes and I know the mentality. It is very central to certain sports but many realize they are getting a free education and are getting a good deal for their brain and potentially their bank accounts. Most guys red shirt in football so they are there four years and take bullshit majors, but it is still a degree and that means something. Blame the individuals, not the coaches and schools. The family tells these kids they will only go to college if they can play, and these kids internalize that and the results are the idiots we see interviewed on television.
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Mnay have the opportunity for free education, why not take advantage of it? You can't tell me that these guys don't realize the value of an education, especially when they are done playing sports. It's funny how a place kicker will be more studious because he knows he is likely not to get drafted but a cornerback assumes he will. Plan for the worst and expect for the best is what these guys should be doing. I work with college athletes and I know the mentality. It is very central to certain sports but many realize they are getting a free education and are getting a good deal for their brain and potentially their bank accounts. Most guys red shirt in football so they are there four years and take bullshit majors, but it is still a degree and that means something. Blame the individuals, not the coaches and schools. The family tells these kids they will only go to college if they can play, and these kids internalize that and the results are the idiots we see interviewed on television.
True, the individuals have to take responsibility, but when you grow up from middle school on and people are always touting you as a phenom combined that with a household who only focus on your athletic achievements (much like those who only focus on the child's academic achievements), you have a very bad recipe. Then when they are in high school, if their parents and their heads aren't on straight and big name college programs come knocking on their doors, what do you think they are gonna do?
Now take a athlete who knows he ain't the star or doesn't really have what it takes, he will have a back up plan Or...
Not everyone has Grant Hill's parents.
Grant Hill was going to go to University of MD, but choose not to because of the academic program, wasn't what he wanted. He had that instilled in him from the get-go.
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Parker, I won't lie, your bias sickens me.
That's not an answer. Modern inventions, modern governments etc etc even the freedoms you enjoy were proposed by a white man.
Of course "Guns, Germs and Steel" and your "My Dad can beat Your dad" arguement refutes this ::)
Rant rash.
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True, the individuals have to take responsibility, but when you grow up from middle school on and people are always touting you as a phenom combined that with a household who only focus on your athletic achievements (much like those who only focus on the child's academic achievements), you have a very bad recipe. Then when they are in high school, if their parents and their heads aren't on straight and big name college programs come knocking on their doors, what do you think they are gonna do?
Now take a athlete who knows he ain't the star or doesn't really have what it takes, he will have a back up plan Or...
Not everyone has Grant Hill's parents.
Grant Hill was going to go to University of MD, but choose not to because of the academic program, wasn't what he wanted. He had that instilled in him from the get-go.
Certainly, but to take so much focus off the individual and family is irresponsible to me. If one of the corners I worked with bitched about not getting drafted and then did not know what to do, I would not feel sympathy because nothing is written in stone with professional athletics. I would truly be upset with myself and my parents if I were in that situation because I know the value of education when sports injury occurs and granted I came from a better background but my parents always put sports second to education and I think that I am a better person for it and why not be able to say that you are an educated black professional athlete rather than a 3 year attendee of UT and functionally illiterate Safety for the Cowboys. This is the reality of college athletes in the major sports. Trust me, a lot of my guys can't spell basic words. The jock mentality and stupidity is present in all athletes but is more prevalent in football and basketball.
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Certainly, but to take so much focus off the individual and family is irresponsible to me. If one of the corners I worked with bitched about not getting drafted and then did not know what to do, I would not feel sympathy because nothing is written in stone with professional athletics. I would truly be upset with myself and my parents if I were in that situation because I know the value of education when sports injury occurs and granted I came from a better background but my parents always put sports second to education and I think that I am a better person for it and why not be able to say that you are an educated black professional athlete rather than a 3 year attendee of UT and functionally illiterate Safety for the Cowboys. This is the reality of college athletes in the major sports. Trust me, a lot of my guys can't spell basic words. The jock mentality and stupidity is present in all athletes but is more prevalent in football and basketball.
Oh I believe you, but as you have seen dudes don't think of that. I went to high school with a dude who was one of the top 25 wide recievers in the country back in the mid 90's, he didn't have his head screwed on right (over a dumb chick) now his ass didn't grad. form that college. Had a chance to go to Nebraska Or Florida State back when they were the shit---needless to say, dumb decision making. I also went to school with a dude whose mother was a professor at MD-said Joe Smith was as dumb as rocks. But, schools make it easier for these dudes, because they want to make money on them, as long as they are playing good and bringing in the dollars, it's all good, and as you know it gets to their heads.
I went to a Historical Black University, where you know, they don't get the best picks when it comes to athletics, which meant that you either put your time in academics or work your ass off to be a better athlete. Allen Iverson once visited my college during intramurals ( in HBCU's the best athletes tend not to be on the teams) and commented that he was very impressed at the quality of game, and this was while he was a G-town. This is also where i have seen the most diesel dudes aside from the amateur and pro bodybuilders. But they were as smart as hell, because they knew how to combine the mind and body.
It is the individual plus what was instilled in them...
this is for Nordic S-man, to piggy back on what I said months ago about Muslim inventions. This is not to hi-jack this thread either.
http://www.thehistorychannel.co.uk/site/tv_guide/full_details/World_history/programme_76.php
The Book of Knowledge of Ingenious Mechanical Devices, by Al Jazari
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Jazari (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Jazari)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/musim_inventions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/musim_inventions)
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One of the world's most eminent scientists was embroiled in an extraordinary row last night after he claimed that black people were less intelligent than white people and the idea that "equal powers of reason" were shared across racial groups was a delusion.
Personally, why can't this be true? How long do we have to wait until we can openly discuss such matters with everyone up in arms about petty morality?
Can only the good attributes to race based genetic advantages (ie. how many white 100m sprinters do you see?) be discussed?
Not saying I believe people of African descent are less intelligent, I'd have to research this issue further to come to that conclusion.
What about the possibility that racial differences also leaders to intellectual capacity?
Let's assume that you come to the conclusion that there is plenty of evidence to support this theory.
What advantages do you see in accepting it as true?
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Sprinting has virtually nothing to do with academic achievement. US culture doesn't promote being a whole person, unlike Greek culture, which extolled the virtue of being in shape in the mind and body. Physical beauty and athletic achievement SHOULD go hand in hand with academic achievement.
Am Football players, Basketball players, and sprinters are only trained for what they do, thru-out their schooling. They get passes on academic tests and classes, which only hurt them in the long-run.
I hope that you're working on a book (assuming you haven't already published one), because you're spot-on, every time.
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Let's assume that you come to the conclusion that there is plenty of evidence to support this theory.
What advantages do you see in accepting it as true?
Science, knowledge and understanding.
Note one of the guys key remarks revolves around treating the africans as if they have the intelligence of the westerners.
Of course the members of getbig are more intelligent than this nobel prize (even the black ones!).
They should really consider some of the getbig crue during the next nobel nominations.
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I hope that you're working on a book (assuming you haven't already published one), because you're spot-on, every time.
Thanks Tre, I think I will, after I get my Masters in History, I will plan on being a Professor someday....need to get my rear in gear.
Parker, I won't lie, your bias sickens me.
That's not an answer. Modern inventions, modern governments etc etc even the freedoms you enjoy were proposed by a white man.
Of course "Guns, Germs and Steel" and your "My Dad can beat Your dad" arguement refutes this ::)
Rant rash.
I am biased towards those who always tell me , "I won't be shit, and I'll never be as smart as a white guy", that head guy won't work on me, because I've seen white dudes who were supposedly the shit when it came to smarts, but were really as dumb rocks. If I believe the woman who called me a "dumb n igger" and to get out of "her" neighborhood (she moved into mine), I would have played in traffic a loong time ago.
And by the way, have you looked at Guns, Germs and Steel, at the links I provided. Or are you just going to dismiss them? Now that is biased, anything that doesn't jive with your beleifs you dismiss...seems like you have a lot in common with Muslim extremists than you care to admit.
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Good points. Just look at how P.E. has been disappearing from school curricula.
A large part of Mike Huckabee's platform is the importance of PE, art, and music. Makes a lot of sense.
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I am biased towards those who always tell me , "I won't be shit, and I'll never be as smart as a white guy", that head guy won't work on me, because I've seen white dudes who were supposedly the shit when it came to smarts, but were really as dumb rocks. If I believe the woman who called me a "dumb n igger" and to get out of "her" neighborhood (she moved into mine), I would have played in traffic a loong time ago.
And by the way, have you looked at Guns, Germs and Steel, at the links I provided. Or are you just going to dismiss them? Now that is biased, anything that doesn't jive with your beleifs you dismiss...seems like you have a lot in common with Muslim extremists than you care to admit.
Wow, a grudge fuels you, cool ::) Are you part palestinian by any chance?
I didn't dismiss it, I'm the one who agrees it's a complex affair in regards to this topic. Read my messages.
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Science, knowledge and understanding.
Note one of the guys key remarks revolves around treating the africans as if they have the intelligence of the westerners.
Of course the members of getbig are more intelligent than this nobel prize (even the black ones!).
They should really consider some of the getbig crue during the next nobel nominations.
I agree that sometimes people talk out of their asses here, however, I do believe that accepting this kind of thing based on genetics and not on nurture as well is really short sighted.
I have a graduate education in molecular biology and am going higher, and while I know I will never win a Nobel Prize, I believe that one has to remember that progress in science requires constant questioning and honesty.
I respect the guy proposing this, however, I think maybe he is being a bit short sighted. I said in another thread that genetics, if you want to get down to it, is a blue print for making different kinds of meat. These proteins then interact according to laws of thermodynamics and one gets the equilibrium of life. I know it is more complicated than that, but so is this theory that is being postulated.
Now while there are lots of possibilities that the initial qualities of the produced meats may differ across the board, there is also evidence that many tissues of the body can be improved through exercise (the brain included).
That being said, there may be cultural things whether we like it or not that influence these kinds of things and until all the potentially biasing variables can be addressed (where and how people are brought up and how they are taught to view themselves for just a few), I think we are spinning our wheels here.
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Wow, a grudge fuels you, cool ::) Are you part palestinian by any chance?
I didn't dismiss it, I'm the one who agrees it's a complex affair in regards to this topic. Read my messages.
No, a grudge, doesn't fuel me, but people's ignorance does (especially when they try and drop a flower pot on a 6 year kid). I chose not to judge people on race or ethnicity, that is not my enemy, ignorance is...
Fair enough, it is complex.
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One thing, do you understand who the man is making these statements?
In this debate "he is being a bit short sighted" doesn't work.
I agree the majority of the problem in Africa is nurture.
Hilarity ensues when the black members of getbig accept sporting advantages of blacks, but state that the statistics show that they have lower average IQ than Caucasians and the worms come out of the woodwork. Hey man! Let us have it both ways! ::)
Look at this thread, it's not even up for debate apparently, blacks are 100% in intelligence with whites.
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One thing, do you understand who the man is making these statements?
In this debate "he is being a bit short sighted" doesn't work.
I agree the majority of the problem in Africa is nurture.
Hilarity ensues when the black members of getbig accept sporting advantages of blacks, but state that the statistics show that they have lower average IQ than Caucasians and the worms come out of the woodwork. Hey man! Let us have it both ways! ::)
Look at this thread, it's not even up for debate apparently, blacks are 100% in intelligence with whites.
How does the argument being short sighted not work?
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How does the argument being short sighted not work?
It's not comprehensive enough when dealing with a man in his position.
You really think that's an adequate critique of his position, that he's "short sighted"?
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It's not comprehensive enough when dealing with a man in his position.
You really think that's an adequate critique of his position, that he's "short sighted"?
Actually in this case I do believe it is okay to question people regardless of position if one is educated to do so. One problem that can occur in academia is that people often get so taken up with who someone is, they forget that they are human and if scientists, welcome questioning into their ideas. That is how scientific progress is made. Nobody is infallible and if I am wrong about this I will be the first to admit it.
Another hallmark of the scientific philosophy is controlling as many variables as one can in order to make distinction and produce results. Stating DNA is the be all and end all is not correct regardless of who you are talking about. I have been in school too long to budge on this one.
In this case I believe that there are too many socially derived confounding factors to make a call like he did. If you don't agree that is fine and if you don't like my ideas that is fine too. All tissues in the body develop differently depending on the stimuli they are exposed to. Maybe blacks start out with lower quality neurons. Maybe not. Someone should look into it. If it is true, that is a conclusion one can make. If it is not, maybe culture is important too. I personally believe in the latter.
I am not trying to be a dick, I am just trying to say that too much progress has been made independent of Watson and although he was a biologic pioneer, many others were as well that made mistakes as well as moved things along at a high rate.
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I agree one shouldn't be humbled into agreeing with someone in his position.
However, he does come with some clout and I really don't think "being short sighted" is proper critique.
Remember, this is an highly intelligent man, who knew full well the topic was like a land mine, but still made the comments.
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I agree one shouldn't be humbled into agreeing with someone in his position.
However, he does come with some clout and I really don't think "being short sighted" is proper critique.
Remember, this is an highly intelligent man, who knew full well the topic was like a land mine, but still made the comments.
You are right, however, I am not sure how else to describe his comments. Maybe you can suggest a better way?
He definitely has "clout" as you would say, however, maybe if he gave more insight into how he came about his conclusions would give people a better idea of how he came to his conclusions.
Perhaps the way some people are reacting are silencing any opportunities he may have to clarify his position and give out some real hard evidence to support his case?
Like I said before, I just would prefer evidence instead of depending on someone's name, especially since something like this is really a hot topic.
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I agree.
The man himself has fantastic credentials, I haven't researched beyond that.
The completeness of my knowledge on this topic revolves around that single news article. As I stated in my very first message in this thread, I would have to research it further to get a better idea. The article doesn't go on to provide any additional info.
What I do find amusing is: Science Museum cancels talk by Watson after 'racist' comments (http://news.independent.co.uk/sci_tech/article3070583.ece)
Sad day for science if they come to the conclusion that his remarks are racist. I honestly do not see any racism in the comments, and for an establishment like a museum to come to that conclusion is a joke.
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I agree.
The man himself has fantastic credentials, I haven't researched beyond that.
The completeness of my knowledge on this topic revolves around that single news article. As I stated in my very first message in this thread, I would have to research it further to get a better idea. The article doesn't go on to provide any additional info.
What I do find amusing is: Science Museum cancels talk by Watson after 'racist' comments (http://news.independent.co.uk/sci_tech/article3070583.ece)
Sad day for science if they come to the conclusion that his remarks are racist. I honestly do not see any racism in the comments, and for an establishment like a museum to come to that conclusion is a joke.
You are right about it being a sad day for science. I hope there is more to this than what is presented in this article. :-\
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The way things happen socially and stuff would tend to back up that man's claims.
Not way it's true, but can't call it false either. There's a reason whitey and kikey are on top. And I'm not ashamed to say that they are generally smarter than black, brown and yellow folks, with brown and yellow folks' cases still being up in the air. But I think there's plenty to suggest that in general, blacks aren't as smart.
Look at the travesty that is Africa. Now before you go on about colonialism, look at China. You may say Indians are uncivilized, but they have contributed a huge deal, as have plenty of others who aren't tops these days. I mean Pakistan was the birth place of the Indus Valley civilization. What has come out of Africa? I mean the early romans, greeks, persians, punics, indians, chinese and germanic folks(2,500) years ago were smarter and better learned than most african nations today. :-\ Isn't that pathetic?
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earth to getbig earth to getbig. This is true many Harvard psychologists came to this conclusion back in the 60's and wrote books on it.
Some people's names you may recognize that have suggested such: Darwin, Piaget, Jung, Locke.....
I think you failed to grasp the science in it, they have done such studies and those of latino, and african decent usually fall 25 standard deviations below the sample population, it is like the Ferry theory only it has not evolved it seems to have devolved and become stale, they were predicting through industrilization that blacks and latinos would pick up more knowledge and hindsight, but have yet to show this.
Some theories account for the affirmitive action, and welfare shoppers, some label it as a motivational token reinforcer where they ae learned helplessness. Take california for instance they got rid of affirmitive action, and blacks are doing very good latinos also.
Regardless of the cry babies on this site who scream racism, the group that receives the real racism and bigotry are the native americans.
Do these studies take into account economic and cultural background? I mean what are they saying - are they saying that blacks are genetically inferior intellectually ? Or are they saying that in the current cultural context they are inferior intellectually?
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So . . . spin this . . .
Nobel-winning biologist apologizes for remarks about blacks
LONDON, England (CNN) -- Nobel laureate biologist Jim Watson apologized "unreservedly" Thursday for stating that black people were not as intelligent as whites, saying he was "mortified" by the comments attributed to him.
Jim Watson won the 1962 Nobel Prize for his part in discovering the structure of DNA.
"I cannot understand how I could have said what I am quoted as having said," Watson said during an appearance at the Royal Society in London.
"I can certainly understand why people, reading those words, have reacted in the ways that they have."
"To all those who have drawn the inference from my words that Africa, as a continent, is somehow genetically inferior, I can only apologize unreservedly. That is not what I meant. More importantly from my point of view, there is no scientific basis for such a belief," he said.
. . .
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/10/18/nobel.apology/index.html
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Science, knowledge and understanding.
Note one of the guys key remarks revolves around treating the africans as if they have the intelligence of the westerners.
Of course the members of getbig are more intelligent than this nobel prize (even the black ones!).
They should really consider some of the getbig crue during the next nobel nominations.
This was the purpose of my asking this question. None of these objectives will be accomplished
with studies
in this area and a definitive answer could never be reached. Just anecdotally, it's apparent that there are many blacks who are smarter than many whites.
Even in the example you cited, scientific data confirming a lower iq among Africans wouldn't really have a practical application.
And I don't see how you've come to the conclusion that the guy's credentials are "impeccable". Just reading that article, it looks like he's a guy who has some pretty wacky opinions and thinks
his
accomplishments give those opinions undeserved credence. Did you read his comment about melanin and sex drive? Why doesn't this apply to middle easterners, who are often just as swarthy as latinos?
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earth to getbig earth to getbig. This is true many Harvard psychologists came to this conclusion back in the 60's and wrote books on it.
Some people's names you may recognize that have suggested such: Darwin, Piaget, Jung, Locke.....
I think you failed to grasp the science in it, they have done such studies and those of latino, and african decent usually fall 25 standard deviations below the sample population, .
What? Most iq classifications only contain 8 standard deviations.
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saw this in an RSS feed.
Just to clear up this misconception, this is not the same as the fast sprinter theory. What that really refers to is a sub group of west africans with higher than standard fast twitch muscle fibers (not all africans). It would not be possible to measure intelligence in this same way, there are an infinite amount of variables and the brain and cognition are simply a more complex and dynamic issue.
If you do your research, African Immigrants in the United States are actually the highest achieving immigrant group, above even Asians and significantly above African Americans. This seems to suggest the explanation is easier found in culture and social class.
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'Race row' Nobel winner suspended
LONDON, England (CNN) -- Nobel laureate biologist James Watson was suspended Friday from his longtime post at a research laboratory and canceled his planned British book tour after controversial comments that black people are not as intelligent as white people.
James Watson won the 1962 Nobel prize for discovering the structure of DNA.
Watson has apologized for the controversial remarks.
He failed to appear to a book signing at a London bookshop Friday afternoon, and organizers of his planned Sunday evening talk at Newcastle's Center for Life said they had been informed Watson would not appear because he was already on a flight home to the States.
The board of trustees at New York's Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory, which Watson has led for nearly four decades, said they had suspended his administrative responsibilities pending a review of his comments.
Watson, 79, an American who won the 1962 Nobel prize for his role in discovering the double-helix structure of DNA, apologized Thursday for his remarks -- but not before London's Science Museum canceled his talk there, planned for Friday evening.
The museum said Watson's words had "gone beyond the point of acceptable debate."
The controvery began with an October 14 interview Watson gave to the Sunday Times, which quoted him saying he was "inherently gloomy about the prospect of Africa" because "all our social policies are based on the fact that their intelligence is the same as ours, whereas all the testing says not really."
Watson also asserted there was no reason to believe different races separated by geography should have evolved identically, and he said that while he hoped everyone was equal, "people who have to deal with black employees find this is not true."
The biologist apologized "unreservedly" Thursday for his comments and said he was "mortified" by the words attributed to him.
"I cannot understand how I could have said what I am quoted as having said," Watson said during an appearance at the Royal Society in London. "I can certainly understand why people, reading those words, have reacted in the ways that they have."
"To all those who have drawn the inference from my words that Africa, as a continent, is somehow genetically inferior, I can only apologize unreservedly. That is not what I meant. More importantly from my point of view, there is no scientific basis for such a belief."
. . .
http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/science/10/19/uk.race/index.html
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This was the purpose of my asking this question. None of these objectives will be accomplished
with studies
in this area and a definitive answer could never be reached. Just anecdotally, it's apparent that there are many blacks who are smarter than many whites.
Even in the example you cited, scientific data confirming a lower iq among Africans wouldn't really have a practical application.
And I don't see how you've come to the conclusion that the guy's credentials are "impeccable". Just reading that article, it looks like he's a guy who has some pretty wacky opinions and thinks
his
accomplishments give those opinions undeserved credence. Did you read his comment about melanin and sex drive? Why doesn't this apply to middle easterners, who are often just as swarthy as latinos?
The man is 79 years old, and has that "Good Old Boy's" or Colonial mentality. Many his age still have those thoughts, it was fixed from his early days. You have to understand, some people only know what they know, and never get out of that box. You know, he probably still wears boxers with hearts on them, and thinks women aren't supposed to drive. And being a scientist, many only know science and not common sense, nor how to socialize, only dealing with each other, especially at his age.
You find the same mentality in the AM South, where guys his age still refer to blacks as n iggers, and these are the ones who are taking care of these old folks.
As far as making all women pretty, notice he said women, chances are dude, wasn't a looker himself, but attractive-ness is about symmetry. The more symmetrical the face the the attractive the person, male or female, is. There was some Hollywood study and many women across all races and backgrounds, thought that Denzel Washington had the most symmetrical face. I don't see it, but hey :-\.
If he wanted to have a propensity for attractive women, He should have checked Brazil ;D. But I'm willing to bet, this dude, has done his share sowing his oats with Indian and black women, cause many who make those comments, usually are the ones dabbling---He just told on himself ;)
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at his age.
\
He should have checked Brazil ;D. But I'm willing to bet, this dude, has done his share sowing his oats with Indian and black women, cause many who make those comments, usually are the ones dabbling---He just told on himself ;)
Or California (I thought that was where they manufactured young good looking blonde bimbos?
Anyways, they cancelled his gig, due to public condemnation
we Brits said oy mate, get real, get outta here.
...but on the other hand, he probably only came here to sell his autobiography and he will now have even better publicity?
TOPIC: Dr.Watson banned for telling awful truth
Dr Watson was due to arrive in Britain to promote his new book
The Science Museum has cancelled a talk it was due to host by a geneticist, after he claimed black people were less intelligent than white people.
Dr James Watson, who won the Nobel Prize for his part in discovering the structure of DNA, was due to speak at the venue on Friday.
But the museum has cancelled the event, saying Dr Watson's views go "beyond the point of acceptable debate".
Dr Watson was due to arrive in Britain on Friday for a speaking tour.
In an interview with The Sunday Times, the 79-year-old said he was "inherently gloomy about the prospect of Africa" because "all our social policies are based on the fact that their intelligence is the same as ours - whereas all the testing says not really".
He went on to say he hoped everyone was equal but that "people who have to deal with black employees find this is not true".
A spokesman for the Science Museum said: "We know that eminent scientists can sometimes say things that cause controversy and the Science Museum does not shy away from debating controversial topics.
"However, we feel Dr Watson has gone beyond the point of acceptable debate and we are as a result cancelling his talk."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7050020.stm
_________________
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Well, my DNA is superior to his, so there.
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Well, my DNA is superior to his, so there.
My dad's DNA could beat up your dad's DNA ;D
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My dad's DNA could beat up your dad's DNA ;D
Fight, Fight...Fight in the Downstairs lab!! ;D
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u jackass's, its really simple! its all about how you are raised and the environment you are surrounded by. if you took a baby black/Latino.etc and raised them in a wealthy culture (private school, collage etc) and surrounded them by intelligent people guess what! most ppl are a product of their enviroment and to be honest if u did go by test scores and stats and what not, ya black ppl and Latinos, etc would def be lower on the intellect scale because of the environment and yes its that simple.
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u jackass's, its really simple! its all about how you are raised and the environment you are surrounded by. if you took a baby black/Latino.etc and raised them in a wealthy culture (private school, collage etc) and surrounded them by intelligent people guess what! most ppl are a product of their enviroment and to be honest if u did go by test scores and stats and what not, ya black ppl and Latinos, etc would def be lower on the intellect scale because of the environment and yes its that simple.
No it's not that simple.
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No it's not that simple.
Actually, it is pretty much that simple. Your environment plays a huge role. For example, put Obama in rural Waianae High School as the child of drug addicted parents, instead of the child of college professor parents who sent him to Punahou (arguably best high school in the state) and it is highly likely we are not talking about him today.
But let's assume that race dictates IQ. What difference would that make to our society?
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Actually, it is pretty much that simple. Your environment plays a huge role. For example, put Obama in rural Waianae High School as the child of drug addicted parents, instead of the child of college professor parents who sent him to Punahou (arguably best high school in the state) and it is highly likely we are not talking about him today.
But let's assume that race dictates IQ. What difference would that make to our society?
No it's not that simple.
Obama is a terrible example as a control to this experiment considering he is half white.
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Actually, it is pretty much that simple. Your environment plays a huge role. For example, put Obama in rural Waianae High School as the child of drug addicted parents, instead of the child of college professor parents who sent him to Punahou (arguably best high school in the state) and it is highly likely we are not talking about him today.
But let's assume that race dictates IQ. What difference would that make to our society?
If Race dictated IQ, then there would be no inteeligent black kids, and no dumb white kids. And if a black kid was intellignet, it was due to the fact that he some white in him...much like what people said in the South. Supposedly WEB DuBois was intelligent because he was a Mulatto, but it doesn't explain how Benjamin Banneker was intelligent as well.
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No it's not that simple.
Obama is a terrible example as a control to this experiment considering he is half white.
Obama is a great example, because our country is full of mixed race people. This is actually one of the problems with race-based statistics.
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What you're suggesting is that there is zero genetic differences in intelligence in relation to different races.
This as I see it is an impossibility.
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If Race dictated IQ, then there would be no inteeligent black kids, and no dumb white kids. And if a black kid was intellignet, it was due to the fact that he some white in him...much like what people said in the South. Supposedly WEB DuBois was intelligent because he was a Mulatto, but it doesn't explain how Benjamin Banneker was intelligent as well.
Also, if certain groups are genetically inferior, wouldn't this support things like race-based affirmative action?
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No it's not that simple.
Obama is a terrible example as a control to this experiment considering he is half white.
So, you say, because he is "half white", therefore he is more intelligent? That's what the ignorant white southern said during the time of Jim Crow. Read my post above.
.
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What you're suggesting is that there is zero genetic differences in intelligence in relation to different races.
This as I see it is an impossibility.
That's exactly what I'm suggesting. Dude I have been around too many smart and dumb people of all races, including mixed race people, to believe intelligence is race-based. You really see it in a place like here, which is about as diverse as you can get anywhere in the U.S.
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I'm not saying a particular race is more intelligent than another. But to say there's no difference in the DNA which specifies our intelligence in race to race comparisons just appears to be a statistical improbability considering the size of our genome.
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Also, if certain groups are genetically inferior, wouldn't this support things like race-based affirmative action?
No, if Aff. action is a bandaid for a problem that bigger than just "getting a leg up". It has to be a change of culture for black americans. Black Americans have a huge inferiority compleex, that was built on them being told that they were nothing, and that anything resembling doing well was "being white". After you are told for hundreds of years that you ain't shit, and after the physical shackles are off, mental "shackles" are still on.
Because blacks have let themselves be defined by stereotypes, or what other say they are, they are in turn letting others to define them. If they break that cycle and actually believe that that are "something", which it has shown in various individuals like B. Banneker among others, and create an environment for not just learning, but athletics as well, blacks will shine.
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I'm not saying a particular race is more intelligent than another. But to say there's no difference in the DNA which specifies our intelligence in race to race comparisons just appears to be a statistical improbability considering the size of our genome.
But isn't that what science has told us? That there are no differences between races in terms of DNA?
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No, if Aff. action is a bandaid for a problem that bigger than just "getting a leg up". It has to be a change of culture for black americans. Black Americans have a huge inferiority compleex, that was built on them being told that they were nothing, and that anything resembling doing well was "being white". After you are told for hundreds of years that you ain't shit, and after the physical shackles are off, mental "shackles" are still on.
Because blacks have let themselves be defined by stereotypes, or what other say they are, they are in turn letting others to define them. If they break that cycle and actually believe that that are "something", which it has shown in various individuals like B. Banneker among others, and create an environment for not just learning, but athletics as well, blacks will shine.
I'm not making an argument in favor of race-based affirmative action. I'm just pointing how those who believe certain races are genetically inferior help make the case for those who support race-based affirmative action.
I actually think things like affirmative action should be income based and should be unrelated to race. Several years ago I read a book called "The Big Picture" by Dr. Ben Carson, arguably the world's leading neurosurgeon who happens to be black. He believes race-based affirmative action should be scrapped and replaced with assistance to those from disadvantaged backgrounds. I tend to agree.
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I'm not making an argument in favor of race-based affirmative action. I'm just pointing how those who believe certain races are genetically inferior help make the case for those who support race-based affirmative action.
I actually think things like affirmative action should be income based and should be unrelated to race. Several years ago I read a book called "The Big Picture" by Dr. Ben Carson, arguably the world's leading neurosurgeon who happens to be black. He believes race-based affirmative action should be scrapped and replaced with assistance to those from disadvantaged backgrounds. I tend to agree.
Yes, Dr. Ben Carson, He spoke at my sister's college graduation. He is off the meter. Since he is a Marylander, we often get many stories about him on TV. I'm starting to agree as well.
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But isn't that what science has told us? That there are no differences between races in terms of DNA?
References? Skin colour alone is a difference that is determined by DNA.
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References? Skin colour alone is a difference that is determined by DNA.
"Biological differences among races do not exist, WU research shows": http://record.wustl.edu/archive/1998/10-15-98/articles/races.html
I've read numerous articles like this over the years.
Skin color is determined by melanin and I'm unaware of any relationship between melanin and intelligence.
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"Biological differences among races do not exist, WU research shows": http://record.wustl.edu/archive/1998/10-15-98/articles/races.html
I've read numerous articles like this over the years.
Skin color is determined by melanin and I'm unaware of any relationship between melanin and intelligence.
Skin color is determined by melanin which in turn is determined by the persons DNA. That is my point.
The are facial, and bone structure differences between the races which again is determined by DNA.
What's to say brain capacity and/or intelligence isn't effected by genetic makeup? All I can see is the politically correct political enviroment of current.
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Skin color is determined by melanin which in turn is determined by the persons DNA. That is my point.
The are facial, and bone structure differences between the races which again is determined by DNA.
What's to say brain capacity and/or intelligence isn't effected by genetic makeup? All I can see is the politically correct political enviroment of current.
Science says so. Sounds like you're asking for proof of a negative. You make a good point about differences in physical features among races and how this could make it more likely that there are also "brain capacity" differences as well. Still, I believe environment plays such an enormous role in a person's intellectual development that race-based intellectual differences (if any) are pretty meaningless. Also, I don't think there is a uniform, reliable way to measure intelligence.
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There are different ways and areas intelligence can bve measured or developed:
Verbal/Linguistic
Logical/Mathematical
Visual/Spatial
Musical/Rhythmic I
Bodily/Kinaesthetic
Interpersonal
Intrapersonal
http://cookps.act.edu.au/mi.htm (http://cookps.act.edu.au/mi.htm)
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What? Most iq classifications only contain 8 standard deviations.
No most are 15 now. Also I had a typo african americans and latinos usually score.8 below the median scores. Which is really not too ba, but it shows reliability so that is a problem. Maybe we should ge Bill Cosby involved :-X
Also just like Ozmo typed IQ is measured in 8 different types, often we never combine them. The father of IQ tests Binet never meant for them to be expressed numerically as they have now formed. Can you measure it in terms of Math? Yes, everything in essence is a mathmatical formula, just as language.
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Do these studies take into account economic and cultural background? I mean what are they saying - are they saying that blacks are genetically inferior intellectually ? Or are they saying that in the current cultural context they are inferior intellectually?
Also another good point. The answer is No. SES is not taken into account in many of these studies. Empirically, it has been stated that SES has no effect on crime, IQ, etc.
This would be a correlations, but hey in hindsight it does account for something, otherwise or intuitions would account for nothing.
Social psychology although PC, leans towards saying that in a round about way. But nothing has been put together including all terms of genes, society, cultural, and economics. The Bell Curve studies only went SO FAR as to hypothesis, but with no clear indicators of experimentation.
Put that all-together in a secondary research paper...yea you got something that would lean in favor of saying just that.
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There are different ways and areas intelligence can bve measured or developed:
Verbal/Linguistic
Logical/Mathematical
Visual/Spatial
Musical/Rhythmic I
Bodily/Kinaesthetic
Interpersonal
Intrapersonal
http://cookps.act.edu.au/mi.htm (http://cookps.act.edu.au/mi.htm)
Some of those items (e.g., linguistics and math) are directly related to the quality of education and training a person receives at school and home. And how do you reliably measure interpersonal and intrapersonal intelligence? Those kinds of things can be all over the place.
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Yes, Dr. Ben Carson, He spoke at my sister's college graduation. He is off the meter. Since he is a Marylander, we often get many stories about him on TV. I'm starting to agree as well.
He's a Marylander and a sell out.
First sight of money and he's out of the hood. Could be giving back to the community.
I guarantee you won't see him hanging out in any downtown clubs. He ain't even rollin on dubs. Total sell out
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I keep going back to the fact that Africa is STILL an undeveloped continent (F.U. Kiwi ;D) whereas Europeans have branched out and now control the civilized world.
What does environment have to do with this? Africa has more natural resources than eastern Europe.
Why didn't they get on ships and conquer us?
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I keep going back to the fact that Africa is STILL an undeveloped continent (F.U. Kiwi ;D) whereas Europeans have branched out and now control the civilized world.
What does environment have to do with this? Africa has more natural resources than eastern Europe.
Why didn't they get on ships and conquer us?
It's called Fucked up, Uneducated (and educated ones that think that they are better than others) Dictators who put themselves in power---with first promises of bringing together the country, then f-ing over diff ethnic groups due their situations when they were pitted against one another during colonialism. And then their is the greed. BBC did a great docu on the Liberia situation.
I agree, though, Africa has the greatest source of natural resources than any continent, they could control th diamond, salt, and gold industries, if they put their minds to it.
There is this one prince, whose country producing oil, who it was shown, had crashed his Lambo in Paris, and took great pride in his monetary value, but in many of his countries village, the roads are not paved. I would take care of my people first, crash Lambos in Paris, second.
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Skin color is determined by melanin which in turn is determined by the persons DNA. That is my point.
The are facial, and bone structure differences between the races which again is determined by DNA.
What's to say brain capacity and/or intelligence isn't effected by genetic makeup? All I can see is the politically correct political environment of current.
i agree with you here, it is possible and infact i agree with you in that yes, DNA is everything and yes some people are naturally gifted in the brain department i don't believe that its enough to say that a race can be completely smarter than another. because we have the human brain factor that we all have the ability to learn and expand our brains if given the right tools and environment, if you wanted to become smarter their is nothing stopping you and the human brain is an amazing tool and completely individual, if a human brain has all its chips their is literally no end to how much info it can retain and in fact the more you learn the more open the door becomes it really has to do w/ ambition to learn and becoming smarter. THEIR IS NO CAP ON HUMAN ITELLIGENTS! by any race! AND their may be physical evidence that a certain race is genetically smarter but that all goes out the window when a certain individual wants to become smarter, The human brain is diff from any other creature on this planet in that we poses the ability TO LEARN! Its all about ambition to learn and becoming smarter, that simple. if u want to jus argue about how genetically one race may be smarter than another go ahead, but in the end we all poses a human brain
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the views we have on this subject are completely biased relative which time period we live in...of course since we live today we look around at the world and say 'of course whiteys are the smartest/best, look at europe compared to africa' and assume it always has been, and always will be, that way.
if we lived in 2500 BC the egyptians would be the master race, the ones who had civilization to make all otehr look laughable, who invented everything, etc..and look around and assume it had always been that way and always will be...
or we could go to 900 AD and clearly assume ethnically arab people, living in the height of civilization, advancing in science/knowledge/inventions etc. to be superior to the piss poor white man, who had always been living in squalor and darkness.
the way the world is today, with whitey supreme, is just the latest phase in a never ending cycle.
teh arabs had their time, the chinese had their time, the indians had their time, etc..right now happens to be whitey's time, but it hasnt always been that way and it wont be forever
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http://www.americancivilrightsreview.com/africanfailure.html
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http://www.americancivilrightsreview.com/africanfailure.html
"AsianAmericans are smarter as a group than European Americans. Asians have anIQ of 103 IQ compared to 100 IQ for European Americans. Jews are the veryhighest. Jews have an IQ of 115 points. Probably as a result of their higherIQ, Jews have been the most productive people in the world for the sizeof their population. [If Hitler had utilized the Jews in Germany, he wouldhave won World War Two"
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I read a report a while back about the relation of evolution to intelligence and genitalia size (no serious), They said that the more evolved a race was, the smaller their genitals were and they were more intelligent. I guess that the asians are more evolved than the africans. As far as the Jews, they were from the origin of civilization, (middle east) so maybe they are the most evolved
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I read a report a while back about the relation of evolution to intelligence and genitalia size (no serious), They said that the more evolved a race was, the smaller their genitals were and they were more intelligent. I guess that the asians are more evolved than the africans. As far as the Jews, they were from the origin of civilization, (middle east) so maybe they are the most evolved
The problem with this theory is that to dominate as a group, "intelligence" is a big factor but not enough. The asian have been isolated and might be smarter "brain power" wise but they lack in the charismatic and physical attribute department which prevents them from domniating like the west do. Have you ever seen a black dude "looking up to" an asian dude? The DNA dictates inferiority in a social situation.
The west is the mix that bests of alls. Do African or whites immigrates to Asian. No. Why?
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the views we have on this subject are completely biased relative which time period we live in...of course since we live today we look around at the world and say 'of course whiteys are the smartest/best, look at europe compared to africa' and assume it always has been, and always will be, that way.
if we lived in 2500 BC the egyptians would be the master race, the ones who had civilization to make all otehr look laughable, who invented everything, etc..and look around and assume it had always been that way and always will be...
or we could go to 900 AD and clearly assume ethnically arab people, living in the height of civilization, advancing in science/knowledge/inventions etc. to be superior to the piss poor white man, who had always been living in squalor and darkness.
the way the world is today, with whitey supreme, is just the latest phase in a never ending cycle.
teh arabs had their time, the chinese had their time, the indians had their time, etc..right now happens to be whitey's time, but it hasnt always been that way and it wont be forever
Awesome post.
Great post by alex23 also..
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The problem with this theory is that to dominate as a group, "intelligence" is a big factor but not enough. The asian have been isolated and might be smarter "brain power" wise but they lack in the charismatic and physical attribute department which prevents them from domniating like the west do. Have you ever seen a black dude "looking up to" an asian dude? The DNA dictates inferiority in a social situation.
The west is the mix that bests of alls. Do African or whites immigrates to Asian. No. Why?
Not to be a dick but I think trying to gain citizenship in some Asian countries is much harder than the opposite. I could be wrong though. I am fairly certain Japanese citizenship is extremely difficult to get.
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you know what is weird?
when your donig a repeated measure design, in testing say how well a drug works ....
when you can't test the same person, you test matches, and you have to size them up to reduce variability, so you pick people with the same
IQ, gender, race
so it's always been a big talk in academia
this thread reminds me of blizzard man, from SNL lol
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(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a36/mtg1337/VINCEGSTEALHINE.gif)
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The west is the mix that bests of alls. Do African or whites immigrates to Asian. No. Why?
Because it lacks the merit, entrepreneurial, and laws in place to allow people make money like the US. If the Asian environment were similar to the US, you can be damn sure people will migrate there. Actually, thanks to globalization, a lot of westerners are already moving to major cities like Beijing, Shanghai, Hyderabad...etc.
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Determining intelligence is a tricky thing...first of all to answer those who scream about affirmative action, scholarships, and preferences, the fact of the matter is that whites in our society receive more preferences than any other group...whites have always had affirmative action...it was called discrimination ...where whites only hired whites, did business with whites,and excluded everyone else...
In terms of scholarships, and school preferences, the amount of scholarships and preferences given to blacks in comparison to whites is laughable...whites are able to get into the best schools because dad went to that school or dad writes a big scheck to that particular school...also because dad knows the administrators of said school and so dad greases the way for his son...also whites attend feeder schools which are schools where Harvard, Yale, Princeton, etc choose most of their students from...schools which blacks are shut out from due to traditional discrimination or due to cost of attending
Meanwhile, the white kid who received a preference claims to have gotten in due to his "hard work" and condemns his school for giving a black kid a chance and calls it a preference...the facts are that blacks are made to attend inferior city schools which receive way less funding than suburban white schools...the education given to both is often uneven...but whites are in charge of all aspects of the educational system and also control all major institutions whether they be the judicial system, the federal government, the economic system, and everything else...so it's easy to pass judgment on those who you basically control...
Do all whites achieve such high status because they are all geniuses?..impossible..whites are over-represented in well-paying , high achieving jobs because of their connections and because of the preferences they receive due to their skin color... George W Bush and John Kerry got into thier wonderful colleges because of who they knew and because of who their fathers were...both were not good students..they actually both had D averages in college...Dan Quayle, who became vice president under Bush 1 was a D student also...but because they are white and rich and connected they got preferences...now look where they are today...powerful and rich... blacks and other minorities have no such connections and when they are given a break, everyone whines about it..maybe because it reminds whites of all the prefernces and breaks they get
Oftentimes many whites receive special tutoring which only they can afford in order to do well on tests....nobody talks about that....also believe it or not, education often does not matter in terms of how well people do their jobs...people learn on the job anyway...qualifications on most jobs are actually too high..also the funny thing about whites being upset with afirmative action and scholarships given to blacks is that these preferences were created by WHITES! It wasn't blacks who created these programs...and they were created because even whites had to admit that they engaged in discriminatory practices which effectively kept blacks and other minorities from being on an even playing field.
Lets face it...through all the crap about all men are created equal and so on, the fact is that whites created this system so that they would succeed...nothing wrong with that...it's human nature...but lets admit it and move on...it's so funny that whites are afraid of a black guy here and there who gets a preference even though blacks control only less than one half of one percent of the whole U.S. economy...a miniscule amount... This country was built on racism....pure and simple...
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I don't think Whites are afraid of blacks succeeding, but protesting the fact that affirmative action gives preference to the 'less qualified'.
For example, why should someone who worked hard to meet the requirements to enter an ivy league school be denied just so someone who have 'yet to prove their mettle' be given a chance? All previous indicators would point to the former having a better chance at succeeding at the school (if we look at accomplishments, test scores, grades...etc).
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The man is 79 years old, and has that "Good Old Boy's" or Colonial mentality. Many his age still have those thoughts, it was fixed from his early days. You have to understand, some people only know what they know, and never get out of that box. You know, he probably still wears boxers with hearts on them, and thinks women aren't supposed to drive. And being a scientist, many only know science and not common sense, nor how to socialize, only dealing with each other, especially at his age.
You find the same mentality in the AM South, where guys his age still refer to blacks as n iggers, and these are the ones who are taking care of these old folks.
As far as making all women pretty, notice he said women, chances are dude, wasn't a looker himself, but attractive-ness is about symmetry. The more symmetrical the face the the attractive the person, male or female, is. There was some Hollywood study and many women across all races and backgrounds, thought that Denzel Washington had the most symmetrical face. I don't see it, but hey :-\.
If he wanted to have a propensity for attractive women, He should have checked Brazil ;D. But I'm willing to bet, this dude, has done his share sowing his oats with Indian and black women, cause many who make those comments, usually are the ones dabbling---He just told on himself ;)
Sure, he is an old guy but I doubt your appraisal of the Dr. is accurate. He is old and merely forgot the old saying about "things we all know but do not talk about."
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u jackass's, its really simple! its all about how you are raised and the environment you are surrounded by. if you took a baby black/Latino.etc and raised them in a wealthy culture (private school, collage etc) and surrounded them by intelligent people guess what! most ppl are a product of their enviroment and to be honest if u did go by test scores and stats and what not, ya black ppl and Latinos, etc would def be lower on the intellect scale because of the environment and yes its that simple.
Many people are a product of their environment. However, this has little to do with one's inherent abilities only their options to maximize their potential.
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If Race dictated IQ, then there would be no inteeligent black kids, and no dumb white kids. And if a black kid was intellignet, it was due to the fact that he some white in him...much like what people said in the South. Supposedly WEB DuBois was intelligent because he was a Mulatto, but it doesn't explain how Benjamin Banneker was intelligent as well.
Completely missing the point.
No one can say "all people of xxx race are more/ less intellegent than those of xxx race." What has been tested, over and over, throughout the last 100 years is that as an average the median of intellegence scores are higher for one race over another. All races will have their exceptions in those that are extremely intellegent or ignorant. We are not interested in the deviations within these subgroups as much as the difference between races at the median, where most people lie.
Nature vs nurture is a completely different agrument and has been pretty much settled. I think we can all say that it has been established that enviroment has much to do with maximizing potential. But potential is much different than ability.