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Getbig Bodybuilding Boards => Training Q&A => Topic started by: Montague on December 18, 2007, 01:28:13 PM
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Has anyone here personally employed the German Volume Training or similar type training principles?
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/luis13.htm
What kind of success did you see with it?
I have to omit certain exercises from my routine for the next month or two until my tendonitis finishes healing.
My belief is that the GVT principle will allow me to stimulate the muscles enough to make them grow while using a smaller/limited variety of exercises.
Opinions?
Mods:
Feel free to move this thread to the injury board if you wish. I merely put it on the main training board in hopes that more people would initially see it and respond to GVT’s effectiveness.
Thanks.
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Has anyone here personally employed the German Volume Training or similar type training principles?
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/luis13.htm
What kind of success did you see with it?
I have to omit certain exercises from my routine for the next month or two until my tendonitis finishes healing.
My belief is that the GVT principle will allow me to stimulate the muscles enough to make them grow while using a smaller/limited variety of exercises.
Opinions?
Mods:
Feel free to move this thread to the injury board if you wish. I merely put it on the main training board in hopes that more people would initially see it and respond to GVT’s effectiveness.
Thanks.
Be sure that you are doing everyting in full range of motion and if you can, take a hat shower before training will help your joints and thendons to warmed up faster. Actually I recommend a hat shower to all of you don`t meter if you have any injury or not especially during the winter time.
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http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=88379.0
I have never used it in its pure form but have tried it. It is hard program in terms of using one exercise and the 10 sets are brutal as you progress. I used it for skullcrushers when I was having tendinitis and I have never had a pump like that in my triceps.
There are stories of German lifters using this in the offseason and gaining 10-12 lbs of muscle in a very short time, helping them move up in weight class.
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havent tried it. my objection is that german lifters would have better genetics than average lifters.
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Has anyone here personally employed the German Volume Training
years ago I tried a couple consecutive weeks with it for chest (flat bench) and even though the last 3-4 sets got really tough,mentally I could'nt get past the feeling that I was using warm up weight, so I dropped the idea of doing it....
it's something I've thought about doing in the squat rack before too, but by the time I actually get to the gym I forget about it
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havent tried it. my objection is that german lifters would have better genetics than average lifters.
I'm one quarter German. That should be enough to get me some hamstrings and anterior delts.
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...even though the last 3-4 sets got really tough,mentally I could'nt get past the feeling that I was using warm up weight, so I dropped the idea of doing it....
Yeah.
From what I’ve read, it sounds like that is one of the biggest barriers to people sticking with it – the ease of those first few sets can really make you doubt its effectiveness.
I think it’s similar to the way many people feel when using Max-OT, when they don’t feel like they’ve completed a full workout due to the lack of volume that the program prescribes.
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I am ignorant of Geman volume training; can someone please enlighten me and/or sumarise it for me?
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I am ignorant of Geman volume training; can someone please enlighten me and/or sumarise it for me?
10 sets of 10 reps.
this thread:
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=88379.0 (http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=88379.0)
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Never tried it fully, but have tried it a couple of times for squats. You start out thinking this is easy, then the last 3 sets or so are killers.
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Yes it is effective. Don't try it it you plan on just going through the motions in the gym and you're eating like shit though because done properly it's a very intense program.
For hypertrophy I prefer 6x6 and 8x8 but 10x10 is good. It's just not something worth coming back to more than once a year for me.
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I`ve done 8x8 for a while last year.....very humbling as far as limiting poundages soes,but I made good gains.
Also did 10x10 squats.....legs were progressing nicely but hurt my back doing rack deads so I had to stop squatting.
Tough routines that you should use for 4-5 weeks then burnout seems inevitable if you`re pushing hard like you should be.
Get ready to be sore as hell if you try it and don`t rest too much between sets.
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I've tried it for awhile, and thought it to be pretty good.
I did deadlifts and uhm.. shoulder presses? on it.
Also think I did squats and benchpresses or something like that.
Anyway, two things:
Use big compound excersises.
Make sure to make a very moderate weight selection. If done correctly, the "sensation" of the GVT, starts to come around set 7 or 8.
If you try it, you'll know what I mean.
Important to not go to heavy.
After all, you're going to complete 100 reps.
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Get ready to be sore as hell if you try it and don`t rest too much between sets.
Once I start back doing full workouts, I’m planning on trying 90-sec. rest intervals and gradually work down to 60.
That’s a Poliquin suggestion.
After that, I’ll increase the weight incrementally until it becomes necessary to decrease my total reps. My target rep range after 6 weeks is 6 – 8 with 1 min. rests between sets.
Thanks, people, for all of your input.
Greatly appreciated.
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GVT is an excellent approach that is basically what was espoused and arguably originated by Vince Gironda and BBs like Larry Scott.
Try GVT which is 10 x 10 for a period of time say 6-8 weeks. And/or try 8 x 8, 7 x 7, 6 x 6 or 5 x 5 for another stretch of time.
Over time you want to increase the reps and eventually weight, or reduce the rest times betwen sets. Poliquin's suggestion of changing the rest times came from existing information already out there. I think 90 seconds is too long. Go with a minute rest between sets and over time increase reps or shorten rest times.
It's also ok to add some type of intensity technique to some sets even though some don't. Also ok to change the one exercise that is used for each muscle from time to time.
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GVT is an excellent approach that is basically what was espoused and arguably originated by Vince Gironda and BBs like Larry Scott.
Try 10 x 10 for a period of time say 6-8 weeks, or 8 x 8, 7 x 7, 6 x 6 or 5 x 5.
Over time you want to increase the reps and eventually weight, or reduce the rest times betwen sets. Poliquin's suggestion of changing the rest times came from existing information already out there. I think 90 seconds is too long. Go with a minute rest between sets and over time increase reps or shorten rest times.
Yes.
Charles P. did credit both of these men (as well as the Germans) as pioneering this system, and their influence can be seen in the sample programs he outlines.
That is part of what attracted me to his article on the subject.
When someone mentions Scott’s name in their writing, I always stop to read.
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I tried it benching a couple times last year, and stopped because I looked like a little bitch. But frankly, if it'll help me put on some size, I could give a shit now about the amount of weight.
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I think that is the attitude you need to help make this system work.
I can't see many "ego trainers" trying this.
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Yeah definietly not for ego trainers. A lot of people cant bring themselves to use a light weight and not go to failure on the first few set. Their loss, they'll never know how hard GVT can be.
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Another benefit of this type of training is that it's harder to get injured.
In most case i'd say moderate weight can be used, rather than light.
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Another benefit of this type of training is that it's harder to get injured.
In most case i'd say moderate weight can be used, rather than light.
supposedly 60% of your 1 RM is most effective
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I've used it for exercises like barbell curls, SLDL, front squats and lateral raises.
I love it. I train at home, so there's no need for me to worry about trying to look strong or anything.
I had been using 8x8 for dips for awhile, now working up to 9x9, then onto 10x10.
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Just did 10x10 for squats - I needed more than 60 seconds between sets but I'm still very sore now a day later.
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i think this works well for legs. i did a routine of 6x6 on squats and deads and it worked awsome. it also is a good routine for calves probally be better to do 6sets of 10-15 for those. i didnt like it for shoulders over working the delts with presses.
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I ve trialed this method with one exercise in my chest and back routine - dips!
Now i know its effectiveness may be affected by the what the rest of my workout consisted of, ie, 5 x 5 and moderate hypertrophy, but to be honest i havent seen a single gain.
You get a fantastic pump no doubt and it lingers too, but in terms of muscle gains i have yet to experience it.
Like i said its effects may be diminished as i'm not truly following gvt.
any thoughts?
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I ve trialed this method with one exercise in my chest and back routine - dips!
Now i know its effectiveness may be affected by the what the rest of my workout consisted of, ie, 5 x 5 and moderate hypertrophy, but to be honest i havent seen a single gain.
You get a fantastic pump no doubt and it lingers too, but in terms of muscle gains i have yet to experience it.
Like i said its effects may be diminished as i'm not truly following gvt.
any thoughts?
-How long were you doing it? Need enough time to be sure of effectiveness; a few weeks really isn't much.
-Were you able to progress in terms of weight and/or reps? Like any program this is pretty fundamental to improvement.
-How many reps/set? Try 8 x 8, 7 x7 or 6x6; personally i think 10 x 10's not optimal.
-Adjust rest time between sets, max. 1 minute or use less and compare the effect.
-Try another exercise for the same muscle, a go-to fave. Be willing to slowly try a few over a period of time based on effectiveness.
-If you don't have a clear-cut nitrogen balance in the diet that will facilitate bodyweight gains it's hard to do much more than cut up for the most part.
-Try it on something else like bis or tris.
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GVT depends on it being followed the way it was originally designed. Trouble being, a few people do not understand or confused this with what GVT is not. You want 10 reps on every rep of every set. Not 8 &9 or 11 & 12. The goal is 100 rep's when done with the workout, nothing else. Use the same weight throughout this method. You do not add weight or lessen weight even if you think you should. Too much unneeded tweaking has ruined many productive BB'ing systems. Can start with 50%, 60% or what ever you body can handle based on a 1 rep max. The first couple of sets may seem too easy. No matter, press on with the same weight on the bar.
This form of training works best with the heavier compound exercises. For a lot of people, this style program is just too intense for direct arm work (curls & triceps) or other extension movements like lateral. But if that works for you, than great. But for most it will not be the best workout plan. GVT is not like 8X8, 5X5's and any of the other (which I like to call) square root workouts. Give any new training program a good 2 weeks to work into and than stay on it for another 4 to 6 week. You want to seem what the full potential can be for you so give it a fair chance.
Rest period can very but try keeping in the 90 second to 2 minute range for most exercises. For DL's , squats, cleans, C&J's, etc you may require at least 3 minutes between sets. That is being realistic. After awhile you should gain a certain level of stamina and require less time between the heavier compound exercises.
With GVT you do only one exercise per muscle group on that workout day. Though some will SS the chest (BP) with back (BB Rows) on a given training day (Arnold & Columbo come to mind). Also squats with leg curls as another example.You should not do any other form of lifting with GVT. Those one or two exercises (SS'ed) are the only ones done on that training day. Usually GVT is followed twice a week. But if once a week suits you, than so be it.
You joints are somewhat spared and you muscles should take the blunt of the training work load. Also the motor impulse units are greatly involved. One of the reasons that most will become so much stronger at the end of a GVT cycle (6-8 weeks). Olympic lifters had used this system in off season training. Some for the purpose of increasing the muscle bwt to a higher lifting weight class.
I cycle GVT during the year. Usually use dips, BB Hack squats, SldL's, Hi-pulls, etc as my compound movements. My best gains, by far, have been from using the bent arm pullover and press (DB's for me). Exceptional upper body training, at least for me. Cleans or Hi-pull are also right up there for me. Good Luck.
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I am following strating today with the only difference being some direct arm work. 10x10 for biceps and a few exercises for triceps but that might change. Everything else is one movement. We'll see how this goes.
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I usually use a lot of volume and frequency.. but even so, when i switched to GVT i continued to progress.
For legs i did 10 sets of squats (+ axillary work: 5 sets leg curls; 5 sets calf-raises)
For Back i did 10 sets of Barbell bent over rows ( + axillary work: 5 sets chins; 2-5 sets curls)
For Delts i did 10 sets of barbell upright rows (+ axillary work: 5 sets presses; 2-5 sets dumbbell french press...for triceps)
Ab + chest.. I trained w/ low volume.
Because in my 10 years training I found that my chest doesn't respond to higher volume.
And my abs get fried from compound movements...so additional work isn't necessary per se.
-CNS
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Fucking brutal on chest and biceps. I know it doesn't call for arm work but fuck if that didn't suck. The chest and tricep pump from incline bench shows why they might not recommend direct arm work. We'll see what happens.
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Serge Nubret used a variation of this in his training, with 5-10 sets of around 12-15 reps with 60 seconds rest between sets. I've been trying that for the last two weeks or so and I can tell you that the pumps are incredible. I worked arms on Monday, with just five sets each of seated dumbbell curls and hammer curls supersetted with bench dips and pushdowns and had a great arm pump by the end of the workout. My arms, especially my biceps, are still sore today, three days later. I can't imagine the pump and soreness after 10 sets of one exercise.
FYI, Serge claimed that he never had problems with injuries, due to his strict form and lighter weight, higher reps/sets. I suggest you give them a try for a few weeks and see what happens.
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Don't worry about rules, try different rep ranges, different exercises isolation included and try it on each muscle. Each might respond better to different variations of the theme. I think 10 x 10 is a little extreme, nothing wrong with going with anywhere from 6 x 6 to 8 x 8 instead.
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I guess since I’m the one who started this thread a little over two months ago, a little feedback from me would be apropos.
One of you even pm'ed me about my progress a couple of weeks back.
I’ve been training GVT style for about seven weeks now and am very happy with the results.
I’ve noticed consistent gains in strength literally each and every week.
Every workout I increase either reps and/or weight, though I haven’t decreased the rest periods to lower than one minute.
This style is more forgiving on my elbows, which are still inflamed a bit and bother me to a degree. I have good and bad days with that.
A typical week looks like this:
Sa – Chest & Tri’s: 10x8 Incline db presses, 4x10 db flyes, 5x10 tricep cable extensions (Larry Scott style)
Su – Off
Mo – Back & Bi’s: 10x6 bent over rows, 5x8 bb preacher curls, 4x8 hyperextensions
Tu – Shoulders & Traps: 10x10 military presses, 3x8 db lateral raises, 4x10 bb shrugs
We – Off
Th – Legs: For legs I break away from the 10 sets of 10 protocol in favor of walking lunges with a bb, as these are still my favorite leg/glute exercise. Don’t ask me how many reps I get per leg per set. All I can tell you is that it’s one trip the entire length of the cardio classroom. I typically follow lunges with glute/ham raises (reverse hamstring curls), curls, extensions, and high rep calf work.
Fr – Off
Workouts are much shorter than I’m accustomed to, and thus it is easier to maintain good intensity for the entire session.
When I begin dieting and cardio around the end of March I intend to incorporate interval training as part of my aerobic work – probably the Tabata principles as recommended to me by the always informative jpm101.
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Every workout I increase either reps and/or weight, though I haven’t decreased the rest periods to lower than one minute.
This style is more forgiving on my elbows, which are still inflamed a bit and bother me to a degree. I have good and bad days with that.
Just try to continue increasing sets or reps if that's working; it wouldn't even make sense to decrease rests times while doing that, you would want to change one of those variables, not all of them.
Ya, it's generally gonna decrease injuries or make existing ones more managable.
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The lighter weight on everything can mess with you a little bit but by the time you finish your muscles are dying. I especially like the fact that it takes it easy on your joints. You get repetition in that area which may cause overuse eventually but if you cycle this correctly I think that can be avoided.
So far I have done every BP once under this style and my muscles hurt like hell.
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Actually with the true GVT system you do not want to increase reps each workout. The reps stay the same (Ten reps for Ten sets=100 reps) which is the whole purpose of this training. Weight increases will and should go up every workout. The goal is to up the total tonage lifted with in those 100 reps max This also is not a pumping system where much lighter weight is used, so the 60 seconds between sets is not an ideal choice if the full potential of GVT is to be gained. 90 to 120 seconds usually. 3 minutes maybe for the Big Boy exercises like squats, DL', cleans, etc.With this you should become so much more stronger at the end of a 6 to 8 week GVT cycle. With a solid and lasting muscle gain, not inflated muscle tissue that a pure pumping system, with lighter weights, may offer for most men.
If any one else wants to adapt increases reps or add extra exercises to a workout than fine for them. And if they are making good progress, than fine again. But if a pure GVT system is followed than progress may be even that much better and quicker for a lot of trainee's. Good Luck.
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Actually with the true GVT system you do not want to increase reps each workout. The reps stay the same (Ten reps for Ten sets=100 reps) which is the whole purpose of this training.
Incorrect. In order to consistely progress by adding weight, it's obvious that there will always be points in which the toal 10 x 10 can't be done. This is quite fundamental actually, glaringly so.
Anyone who really understands the system and it's origins realizes that there are various ways to work it. ;D Pretty simple stuff.
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Actually the GVT system is pretty simple to understand and does not require a lot of intellect. Though some may fine the idea very hard to grasp. People with a lack of hardcore gym experience seem to fall into this group. A newbee mistake, which can be pardoned, yes. But much older trainee's should know better.
It is 10 reps a set which may require a bit of mental calculation. Again, people with real gym experience will understand that very quickly. That is why adding weight, of any amount, the next workout is a matter of judgment. But no matter what, the 10 reps a set is consent. If that 10 rep set is coming up short because too much weight had been applied on the bar than, by experience, the trainee will know how to adjust the next workout. As a general rule of thumb, you should feel that you could go over the 10 rep limit at the start of a workout, but do not. Best to have the ability to go over than to go under those ten reps at the start of the workout. Something that one may do (though try not to make a habit of it) is to reduce the weight if not able to make those 10 reps.
Really basic and simple stuff that only require a little thinking on the trainee's part. Good luck.
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-How long were you doing it? Need enough time to be sure of effectiveness; a few weeks really isn't much.
-Were you able to progress in terms of weight and/or reps? Like any program this is pretty fundamental to improvement.
-How many reps/set? Try 8 x 8, 7 x7 or 6x6; personally i think 10 x 10's not optimal.
-Adjust rest time between sets, max. 1 minute or use less and compare the effect.
-Try another exercise for the same muscle, a go-to fave. Be willing to slowly try a few over a period of time based on effectiveness.
-If you don't have a clear-cut nitrogen balance in the diet that will facilitate bodyweight gains it's hard to do much more than cut up for the most part.
-Try it on something else like bis or tris.
Sorry ive taken so long to reply - completely forgot i posted on this thread.
Ive been applying the methodology for around 4 mths now exclusively on dips using a 10 x 10 rep set combo, 1 minute rest, whilst keeping the rest of my workout the same as b4, ie 5 x5 on bench and standard hypertrophy albeit slightly higher reps (12-20) for pullovers.
The pump is mindblowing but ive yet to see any solid, rewarding growth or gain in reps/weight.Actually with the true GVT system you do not want to increase reps each workout. The reps stay the same (Ten reps for Ten sets=100 reps) which is the whole purpose of this training. Weight increases will and should go up every workout. The goal is to up the total tonage lifted with in those 100 reps max This also is not a pumping system where much lighter weight is used, so the 60 seconds between sets is not an ideal choice if the full potential of GVT is to be gained. 90 to 120 seconds usually. 3 minutes maybe for the Big Boy exercises like squats, DL', cleans, etc.With this you should become so much more stronger at the end of a 6 to 8 week GVT cycle. With a solid and lasting muscle gain, not inflated muscle tissue that a pure pumping system, with lighter weights, may offer for most men.
If any one else wants to adapt increases reps or add extra exercises to a workout than fine for them. And if they are making good progress, than fine again. But if a pure GVT system is followed than progress may be even that much better and quicker for a lot of trainee's. Good Luck.
The methodology you prescribe, ie, longer rest periods, would seem to suit a lower rep range than te. Correct?
My main beef with gvt is that it seems very time consuming.
What would be more effective - 3 sets bench, 3 sets dip and 3 sets pullover all in 10 rep range or just a straight 10x10 for a single compound exercise?
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Actually the opposite would be true with regards to GVT. Staying on the same exercise, in the same spot with usually the hands on or near the weight to be lifted (like lying on a bench/incline, standing over a bar for BB rows, standing under or by a squat rack, etc.), for the complete 10X10's should go quite fast. It is effective time management. With that style of workout a stopwatch (or large wall clock) would be needed. No time wasted. But you will have to be the judge of that with a fair workout try with GVT.
Thing is, this form of working out requires mental focus and a sense of will. GVT is just another good workout schemes. It is not the only way to train but does offer an opportunity to explore one or more different result producing programs. Not any one method is suited for everyone. Good Luck.
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Just grabbed a 18 year old freshman who had the bad luck of walking past the staff room window. He was going to do some benches anyway (he's had some lifting experience) so I had him do 10X10's for roughly 90 second rest between sets. He used the basic 135 on the bar. Took 20 minutes and 53 seconds for the full workout, by my stopwatch. If doing a regular chest workout, that would be the only exercise he would do for that day. If he was a little more advanced than he might do the BP SS'ed with BB rows or lat machine pulldowns. Time wise, this can be a very effective program. In my view anyway. Good Luck.
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The lighter weight on everything can mess with you a little bit but by the time you finish your muscles are dying.
For many folks, that’s probably the biggest mental barrier to overcome – using much less weight than you know you can with longer rests and fewer sets.
Even if your ego doesn’t get in the way, your brain really questions the effectiveness of those first 3 or so sets.
But rest assured that by sets 7&8 there will be no question that you’re working hard.
You’ll struggle with 9, and 10 should be damn near impossible to complete...
Provided you're doing it right.
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Just grabbed a 18 year old freshman who had the bad luck of walking past the staff room window
too funny.
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Montague gives great insight into GVT training. It can be an ego thing. Most guy's in a gym do not want to give the perception of being pussy and using what might seem to be baby weights. And after all, BB'ing is pure perception for most. In a lot of gym's the best benchers may not be the best developed in the chest, delts and triceps department. Strong yes, superior development..no, not always.
As Montague name suggest, success is usually a mix of this and that during any BB'ing year. Certainly GVT is not the only way, but can be a very helpful tool for BB'ing gains for short training periods (6-8 weeks). Some divide a training year into 3 month sections rather than a shorter period (6-8 weeks). If that works for you, than more power to you.
Cycling heavy rack training (partials, lockouts,etc.), GVT and moderate to heavy brief BB'ing workouts as the last phase of a training year has worked well for me. Any rep scheme from 3 to 20+ reps are used except when doing GVT (10X10). 3 reps will do for you what 20 will not and vice versa. Experiment for what works best for you and not the other guy. Good Luck.
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Montague i tried this, and found that like you said the pump was immense, and arms etc would obviously seem to grow during workout due to blood increase in the area....the day after my arms seemed smaller than they were in the brginning, and i feel im shrinking like im over training.
I was doing:
Monday
chest/back
bench 10x10 ss rows 10/10
flys3x10 ss pulldowns 3x10
Wednesday
Legs
squats 10x10
unilateral squats 3x10
Friday
SHoulders arms
Db press 10x10
laterals 3x10
overhead extensions 10x10
bi curls 10x10
Davie
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How long have you been doing the routine?
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The day after such a workout your arms, and the rest of the body, are adjusting to the increased work load. Allow your CNS to work into such a higher volume program at first. After a week or so, you should advance quite well. Some lifter's have worked themselves into higher weight classes, being more muscular and stronger than before, with GVT style training. Just like guy's in the 60's & 70's, when trying the 20+ per muscle group programs though they were going to die the first week or so. After a short period they adjusted to the extreme overload. Even Gironda 8X8 (64 reps...GVT 100 reps) took a little time to work into.
Dave's program would not need the flys SS'ed with pulldowns, unilaterals or lateral raises.. not needed. Doing the 10X10's for bicep/triceps is overkill.Adding more to recovery time for his concern of arm shrinkage. No wonder the arms got smaller. This training method is designed, and works best, for compound movements. If you must, than add a 2 or 3 sets of biceps, on Monday, at the end of the workout. Triceps on Friday. This should end the insecurities about those arms not getting enough attention.
Most guy's, with experience, will do GVT with something like BB rows on Monday. Squats on Wednsday and dips on Friday. Some will SS back with Chest on Monday. Leg & hams on Thursday. Lot's of serious compound exercises to select from. Remember K.I.S.S.. Good Luck.
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Montague i tried this, and found that like you said the pump was immense, and arms etc would obviously seem to grow during workout due to blood increase in the area....the day after my arms seemed smaller than they were in the brginning, and i feel im shrinking like im over training.
I was doing:
Monday
chest/back
bench 10x10 ss rows 10/10
flys3x10 ss pulldowns 3x10
Wednesday
Legs
squats 10x10
unilateral squats 3x10
Friday
SHoulders arms
Db press 10x10
laterals 3x10
overhead extensions 10x10
bi curls 10x10
Davie
What is your nationality? German Volume Training only works for Germans. ;D
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What is your nationality? German Volume Training only works for Germans. ;D
It won't make you more German. All genetics.
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World War I and World War II didn't work for the Germans. But GVT works for everyone, including Germans. Works well for me being born about 117'42W & 14'14S. Dave's in Scotland, should work for him. Good Luck.
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Well remembered JPM....
Now granted i was only on it a couple of weeks, i wasnt expecting miracles, it took 14 mobnths of v hard work with DC to get 30lbs on my frame. So i wasnt expecting a 2 week fix, just struck me very odd after i thought it was going well.
I had been torn between 2 v diff methods (something new), and it was either GVT, or bill starrs 5x5 (maybe even rippetoes Starting strength)....So il have to think about it over wknd and hit soething hard come monday.
Davie
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Davie, I think you already know all this but this is for the other people who come here, who may not: Will take between 2 to 3 weeks to work into a newer, more serious program for most guy's. Setting up the CNS/body, as it were, to adjust to the increased work load(s). Always a hint of doubt when attempting something new and a minor miracle doesn't occur right away. Human nature again.
GVT should give anyone more stamina (strength & endurance) while 5X5's more direct power. Even when using the same lighter weights (on every set of every rep) with GVT your working more of the fiber and the important motor units of a muscle group it's self. The ligaments/tendons/joints should, and are not, involved in any extreme tension of abuse.
5X5's call into play tendon and ligament strength, which can be a good thing, along with muscle fiber. You will gain muscle size with all this. Which ever method you follow all depends on what fits your individual needs. You will not get an extreme pump with 5X5's, but so what? A pump does not always mean muscle gains, just a short mind trick that you are gaining lasting muscle mass. Working for just a pump is misleading at best. Good Luck
Side Bar: Do remember you being Scottish. Just to note, if it's wasn't for the Scottish, Irish and Welsh army regiments the British would have been hard pressed to win any major military campaign in their history. How history would have changed for England without their aid. The British isles today might be speaking French, Spanish, German or even Scandinavian.
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I tried GVT during a cutting phase without cardio. Leg day was just squats and leg curls with tiny baby weights. It was one of the most intense workouts of my life. The ultra short rest period and the 3 seconds concentric and 4 seconds eccentric are insanely brutal IMHO.
Maybe it was crazy to do this kind of a routine during a cut, but I was quite young and the results were great.
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Thanks JPM, i agree with you, i dont know why i stopped. Always liked the idea of getting stronger as well, and for some reason after the first couple of weeks i was getting the impression that even though size gains might come, strength gains wouldnt really, or maybe even regress?!
Though that theory mioght have since been disproved as i know some one who dropepd his bench when starting this to 200lbs and in 10months brought it back up to 270lbs.
He was also doing the routine i posted.
Davie
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I might give it a shot with Squats this weekend. You know, it's Oktoberfest and all.
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World War I and World War II didn't work for the Germans. But GVT works for everyone, including Germans. Works well for me being born about 117'42W & 14'14S. Dave's in Scotland, should work for him. Good Luck.
How so? Those Nazi and German soldiers were mighty buff and could really take a bullet. If the battle of the bulge had been waged in the summer, with the Germans wearing their banana hammock summer uniforms, there would have been no doubt of the effectiveness of their training methods. (The battle of the bulge would have taken on a whole new meaning, that's for sure.)
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Montague i tried this, and found that like you said the pump was immense, and arms etc would obviously seem to grow during workout due to blood increase in the area....the day after my arms seemed smaller than they were in the brginning, and i feel im shrinking like im over training.
Do all of your muscles appear to be shrinking, or is it just your arms?
As JPM mentioned, 10:10 for arms is very excessive.
I remember a Poliquin article from a few years ago in which he offered several examples of GVT routines and suggested only 3-4 sets of one exercise (10 reps ea.) for bi’s/tri’s.
Even assuming that your arms are in an over-trained state, I still don’t know that you’d experience such noticeable atrophy in that amount of time; but I‘m only speculating.
There is quite a number of other things that can cause a somewhat flatter/deflated appearance to your muscles.
Diet - especially carbs - is a huge factor.
Restricted carb intake can often cause depleted looking muscles, so look at your food intake.
If GVT is requiring greater nutritional demands compared with how you’ve been training, you may need to add some carbs to your daily diet.
I’ve also read in one or two places that, for many people, muscles can appear flat during the repair stage.
These articles fail to explain the mechanisms by which this apparently works, but I’ve noticed that my muscles sometimes take on a fuller/more typical look about 3-4 days after working them.
The first 1-2, however, can look disappointing.
Another factor is relativity.
If this is the first time you’ve done a rep scheme that results in strong visible pumps, it’s easy to get overexcited.
Once the pumps fade, disappointment can set in fast.
Remember that pumps do not directly equate to growth. They may help shuttle a bit more O2 and nutrients to the muscles being worked, but a pump is basically a temporary “side-effect” of certain kinds training.
Never presume that a GVT-induced pump is instant miracle growth.
If it’s any reassurance, I’ve never spoken with anyone who’s complained of muscle loss - or even stagnation - while on GVT.
Feedback is always positive, and most of it includes comments such as, “I made my best gains on it!”
That being said, bb’ing is highly individualistic, and it IS possible that your body is not suited to favorable results from GVT.
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I ve trialed this method with one exercise in my chest and back routine - dips!
Now i know its effectiveness may be affected by the what the rest of my workout consisted of, ie, 5 x 5 and moderate hypertrophy, but to be honest i havent seen a single gain.
You get a fantastic pump no doubt and it lingers too, but in terms of muscle gains i have yet to experience it.
Like i said its effects may be diminished as i'm not truly following gvt.
any thoughts?
I felt the same way
awesome pumpts but not much in the way of strength or size gains
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Do all of your muscles appear to be shrinking, or is it just your arms?
As JPM mentioned, 10:10 for arms is very excessive.
I remember a Poliquin article from a few years ago in which he offered several examples of GVT routines and suggested only 3-4 sets of one exercise (10 reps ea.) for bi’s/tri’s.
Even assuming that your arms are in an over-trained state, I still don’t know that you’d experience such noticeable atrophy in that amount of time; but I‘m only speculating.
There is quite a number of other things that can cause a somewhat flatter/deflated appearance to your muscles.
Diet - especially carbs - is a huge factor.
Restricted carb intake can often cause depleted looking muscles, so look at your food intake.
If GVT is requiring greater nutritional demands compared with how you’ve been training, you may need to add some carbs to your daily diet.
I’ve also read in one or two places that, for many people, muscles can appear flat during the repair stage.
These articles fail to explain the mechanisms by which this apparently works, but I’ve noticed that my muscles sometimes take on a fuller/more typical look about 3-4 days after working them.
The first 1-2, however, can look disappointing.
Another factor is relativity.
If this is the first time you’ve done a rep scheme that results in strong visible pumps, it’s easy to get overexcited.
Once the pumps fade, disappointment can set in fast.
Remember that pumps do not directly equate to growth. They may help shuttle a bit more O2 and nutrients to the muscles being worked, but a pump is basically a temporary “side-effect” of certain kinds training.
Never presume that a GVT-induced pump is instant miracle growth.
If it’s any reassurance, I’ve never spoken with anyone who’s complained of muscle loss - or even stagnation - while on GVT.
Feedback is always positive, and most of it includes comments such as, “I made my best gains on it!”
That being said, bb’ing is highly individualistic, and it IS possible that your body is not suited to favorable results from GVT.
Thanks Montague, great reply.
All valid points, and ones il look at and see if i can determine if my diet is lacking etc. I was either going to try this again or go back to tried and tested DC, but as you have explained, more time will be needed to properly assess its effectiveness. + iv seen the results in others first hand, and know it can be effective.
Even if a routine wasnt really suited to a body type as much as an alternative priogram, an individual should still be able to make progress, just maybe not as fast as he/she would on another routine.
I also like the idea and principle of it all as im trying to protect my jointa at the mo, injuries through rugby have left me sore and id rather progress in size, and slowly in strength and protect my joints.
Also noted about arms.
If i give it another shot il defo make sure that after the 10x10 for shoulders i only do 3-4 sets of one exercise for bis/tris.
How are you finding it/hitting your targets?
Davie
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How are you finding it/hitting your targets?
Davie
I definitely ended up with some permanent growth from it.
I’m not currently doing GVT, but I’m still using what many trainers might consider a high volume approach.
My body has always seemed to respond best to higher volume, lesser frequency (i.e. plenty of rest), which is good because right now, that’s all my schedule will permit.
Lately, I’ve been paying closer attention to ROM and TUT.
I’ve tweaked my form a bit on certain movements to maximize stress on the muscle, and I’ve also adopted a faster rep tempo working primarily within the most effective part of the rep.
I am seeing noticeable results from this.
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Sounds good. I to can only really hit the gym about 3 times a week, family wont really allow anything else just now. That is kind of what caught my eye about GVT.
what made u stop gvt after ur success with it?
Davie
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Sounds good. I to can only really hit the gym about 3 times a week, family wont really allow anything else just now. That is kind of what caught my eye about GVT.
what made u stop gvt after ur success with it?
Davie
As good as GVT was for me, I know that I can't use it forever and enjoy the same kind of progress.
I habitually switch up my routines every 6-10 weeks, or so.
It helps prevent acclimation and, thus, stagnation of progress.
It also keeps things interesting.
GVT is definitely something I will revisit at some point in the future.
I’m also toying with the idea of trying a variation that Charles Poliquin wrote about several years back - although, any deviation from 10:10 is not truly GVT, but that’s how he described it, anyway.
Most of the routines I tinker with now consist of higher-end volume because, as I mentioned, that works really well for me.
Because you experienced such favorable results with DC, you may find it more beneficial to stick with those types of protocols.
It’s good that you’re trying different things, though, because that’s how you learn what’s best for you.
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I forgot to mention that another reason I don’t use GVT all the time is that, when done properly, it’s pretty taxing on the nervous system.
I regularly supplement with extra vitamin B-6, which supports the CNS and recovery.
Coincidentally, I believe that B vitamins were a big part of the nutritional plan of many high-volume gurus of the 60’s & 70’s.
I don’t want to turn this into a nutrition thread, but thought it worth briefly mentioning in regards to this discussion.
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Thats fine, i enjoy the nutritional talk lol.
I was thinking of using DC again, and like the feeling of beating the logg book, but it is very demanding on the body as a whole. I was havig to eazt rediculous amounts of food to make those gains. Force feeding etc, wasnt fun. I revisited DC since my success ona diet that was clean good, and adequate to bring about small weight gain. I beat the log book, and upped the weight everysingle session, for every exercise and every bodypart, felt v strong and was moving great weights with good form, stepped on scale after a great cycle and was exactly the same weight as before lol. DC just demands ALOT of extra calories to support it, given the going to faikure on pretty much every set nature of it.
DC had also appealed b/c of the 3 times a week layout, which is what caught my eye with gvt.
Can i ask, what did you think about what i posted above (routine wise), except cutting the arm weork down to 3-4 sets of 10 reps for one exercise??
Davie
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It doesn’t look bad at all.
JMP will give anyone some of the best advice they can get on Getbig, and I strongly agree with him that the fly’s, lateral raises, and pull downs are unnecessary and likely even counterproductive.
If it were me, I think I’d choose some kind of hamstring movement to do after squats - again, something for 3 sets of 10 reps.
I would not ask JPM’s advice for legs, though.
He will almost certainly recommend 20-rep breathing squats, and those can kill you! :)
And yes, reduce the volume of sets for direct arm work and you should be fine.
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GVT is not meant for a year round adventure in training. Anywhere from a fair trial of 8 weeks to 3 months tops.Can go back to GVT, if you wish, after 3 or 4 months of doing other forms of training. Remembering that your are not using extra heavy weight with it or attempting anything even near failure. The CNS (Central Nervous System..the key to steady progress) should adapt very well. Main error of people who try GVT is that of adding or dropping the weight used on the bar during the full 100 reps (10X10's=100). Think the main problem is the mental approach, some have a hard time staying on one exercise for the full 10 sets.
Actually my favorite leg exercise is BB Hack Squats. To me, kind of like a combo reverse DL and squat. Don't have to have a bar across the shoulders for every form of squats. Also, you squat down to do regular floor DL's. Even the old Jefferson lift.
There's that old theory about lifting with a weight above or below the body's center of gravity (around the waist/belly button/small of the back area) when it comes to more focus on the hips/legs themselves. I agree with that concept. If anyone has ever used a heavy duty hip belt they would understand right away. Don't know why more PL'ers don't use that training device. If a guy has a hard time getting 1 rep with 400 in the squat, he might find that the same 400 can be rep out to 8 to 10 reps when using a hip belt. And the low back will have less stress put on it. Only problem, sometimes the belt and setting up is one pain in the ass. But than again, "What price glory".
If serious about Ham training, than try one stretching movement (Romanian DL or SLDL) and a leg bicep curling exercise. You want to perform the action of the Ham's (curling) along with a stretch in the same leg workout. That's a full leg workout, with any other form of leg focus included. Good Luck.
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I did this with curls one time of course the biggest knock out in the gym just in time to see me struggling to curl 10lbs lol
oh well worth the results :P