German Vol. Training’s effectiveness?

[davie]

Well remembered JPM....

Now granted i was only on it a couple of weeks, i wasnt expecting miracles, it took 14 mobnths of v hard work with DC to get 30lbs on my frame. So i wasnt expecting a 2 week fix, just struck me very odd after i thought it was going well.

I had been torn between 2 v diff methods (something new), and it was either GVT, or bill starrs 5x5 (maybe even rippetoes Starting strength)....So il have to think about it over wknd and hit soething hard come monday.

Davie

[jpm101]

Davie, I think you already know all this but this is for the other people who come here, who may not: Will take between 2 to 3 weeks to work into a newer, more serious program for most guy's. Setting up the CNS/body, as it were, to adjust to the increased work load(s). Always a hint of doubt when attempting something new and a minor miracle doesn't occur right away. Human nature again.

GVT should give anyone more stamina (strength & endurance) while 5X5's more direct power. Even when using the same lighter weights (on every set of every rep) with GVT your working more of the fiber and the important motor units of a  muscle group it's self. The ligaments/tendons/joints should, and are not, involved in any extreme tension of abuse.

5X5's call into play tendon and ligament strength, which can be a good thing, along with muscle fiber. You will gain muscle size with all this. Which ever method you follow  all depends on what fits your individual needs.  You will not get an extreme pump with 5X5's, but so what? A pump does not always mean muscle gains, just a short mind trick that you are gaining lasting muscle mass. Working for just a pump is misleading at best. Good Luck

Side Bar: Do remember you being Scottish. Just to note, if it's wasn't for the Scottish, Irish and Welsh army regiments the British would have been hard pressed to win  any major military campaign in their history. How history would have changed for England without their aid. The British isles  today might be speaking French, Spanish, German or even Scandinavian.

[Master Blaster]

I tried GVT during a cutting phase without cardio. Leg day was just squats and leg curls with tiny baby weights. It was one of the most intense workouts of my life. The ultra short rest period and the 3 seconds concentric and 4 seconds eccentric are insanely brutal IMHO.

Maybe it was crazy to do this kind of a routine during a cut, but I was quite young and the results were great.

[davie]

Thanks JPM, i agree with you, i dont know why i stopped. Always liked the idea of getting stronger as well, and for some reason after the first couple of weeks i was getting the impression that even though size gains might come, strength gains wouldnt really, or maybe even regress?!

Though that theory mioght have since been disproved as i know some one who dropepd his bench when starting this to 200lbs and in 10months brought it back up to 270lbs.

He was also doing the routine i posted.

Davie

[FREAKgeek]

I might give it a shot with Squats this weekend. You know, it's Oktoberfest and all.

[dantelis]

World War I and World War II didn't work for the Germans. But GVT works for everyone, including Germans. Works well for me being born about 117'42W & 14'14S. Dave's in Scotland, should work for him. Good Luck.

How so?  Those Nazi and German soldiers were mighty buff and could really take a bullet.  If the battle of the bulge had been waged in the summer, with the Germans wearing their banana hammock summer uniforms, there would have been no doubt of the effectiveness of their training methods.  (The battle of the bulge would have taken on a whole new meaning, that's for sure.)

[Montague]

Montague i tried this, and found that like you said the pump was immense, and arms etc would obviously seem to grow during workout due to blood increase in the area....the day after my arms seemed smaller than they were in the brginning, and i feel im shrinking like im over training.

Do all of your muscles appear to be shrinking, or is it just your arms?

As JPM mentioned, 10:10 for arms is very excessive.
I remember a Poliquin article from a few years ago in which he offered several examples of GVT routines and suggested only 3-4 sets of one exercise (10 reps ea.) for bi’s/tri’s.

Even assuming that your arms are in an over-trained state, I still don’t know that you’d experience such noticeable atrophy in that amount of time; but I‘m only speculating.
There is quite a number of other things that can cause a somewhat flatter/deflated appearance to your muscles.

Diet - especially carbs - is a huge factor.
Restricted carb intake can often cause depleted looking muscles, so look at your food intake.
If GVT is requiring greater nutritional demands compared with how you’ve been training, you may need to add some carbs to your daily diet.

I’ve also read in one or two places that, for many people, muscles can appear flat during the repair stage.
These articles fail to explain the mechanisms by which this apparently works, but I’ve noticed that my muscles sometimes take on a fuller/more typical look about 3-4 days after working them.
The first 1-2, however, can look disappointing.

Another factor is relativity.
If this is the first time you’ve done a rep scheme that results in strong visible pumps, it’s easy to get overexcited.
Once the pumps fade, disappointment can set in fast.

Remember that pumps do not directly equate to growth. They may help shuttle a bit more O2 and nutrients to the muscles being worked, but a pump is basically a temporary “side-effect” of certain kinds training.
Never presume that a GVT-induced pump is instant miracle growth.

If it’s any reassurance, I’ve never spoken with anyone who’s complained of muscle loss - or even stagnation - while on GVT.
Feedback is always positive, and most of it includes comments such as, “I made my best gains on it!”

That being said, bb’ing is highly individualistic, and it IS possible that your body is not suited to favorable results from GVT.

[Straw Man]

I ve trialed this method with one exercise in my chest and back routine - dips!

Now i know its effectiveness may be affected by the what the rest of my workout consisted of, ie, 5 x 5 and moderate hypertrophy, but to be honest i havent seen a single gain.

You get a fantastic pump no doubt and it lingers too, but in terms of muscle gains i have yet to experience it.

Like i said its effects may be diminished as i'm not truly following gvt.

any thoughts?

I felt the same way

awesome pumpts but not much in the way of strength or size gains

[davie]

Do all of your muscles appear to be shrinking, or is it just your arms?

As JPM mentioned, 10:10 for arms is very excessive.
I remember a Poliquin article from a few years ago in which he offered several examples of GVT routines and suggested only 3-4 sets of one exercise (10 reps ea.) for bi’s/tri’s.

Even assuming that your arms are in an over-trained state, I still don’t know that you’d experience such noticeable atrophy in that amount of time; but I‘m only speculating.
There is quite a number of other things that can cause a somewhat flatter/deflated appearance to your muscles.

Diet - especially carbs - is a huge factor.
Restricted carb intake can often cause depleted looking muscles, so look at your food intake.
If GVT is requiring greater nutritional demands compared with how you’ve been training, you may need to add some carbs to your daily diet.

I’ve also read in one or two places that, for many people, muscles can appear flat during the repair stage.
These articles fail to explain the mechanisms by which this apparently works, but I’ve noticed that my muscles sometimes take on a fuller/more typical look about 3-4 days after working them.
The first 1-2, however, can look disappointing.

Another factor is relativity.
If this is the first time you’ve done a rep scheme that results in strong visible pumps, it’s easy to get overexcited.
Once the pumps fade, disappointment can set in fast.

Remember that pumps do not directly equate to growth. They may help shuttle a bit more O2 and nutrients to the muscles being worked, but a pump is basically a temporary “side-effect” of certain kinds training.
Never presume that a GVT-induced pump is instant miracle growth.

If it’s any reassurance, I’ve never spoken with anyone who’s complained of muscle loss - or even stagnation - while on GVT.
Feedback is always positive, and most of it includes comments such as, “I made my best gains on it!”

That being said, bb’ing is highly individualistic, and it IS possible that your body is not suited to favorable results from GVT.

Thanks Montague, great reply.

All valid points, and ones il look at and see if i can determine if my diet is lacking etc. I was either going to try this again or go back to tried and tested DC, but as you have explained, more time will be needed to properly assess its effectiveness. + iv seen the results in others first hand, and know it can be effective.

Even if a routine wasnt really suited to a body type as much as an alternative priogram, an individual should still be able to make progress, just maybe not as fast as he/she would on another routine.

I also like the idea and principle of it all as im trying to protect my jointa at the mo, injuries through rugby have left me sore and id rather progress in size, and slowly in strength and protect my joints.

Also noted about arms.

If i give it another shot il defo make sure that after the 10x10 for shoulders i only do 3-4 sets of one exercise for bis/tris.

How are you finding it/hitting your targets?

Davie

[Montague]

How are you finding it/hitting your targets?

Davie

I definitely ended up with some permanent growth from it.
I’m not currently doing GVT, but I’m still using what many trainers might consider a high volume approach.

My body has always seemed to respond best to higher volume, lesser frequency (i.e. plenty of rest), which is good because right now, that’s all my schedule will permit.

Lately, I’ve been paying closer attention to ROM and TUT.
I’ve tweaked my form a bit on certain movements to maximize stress on the muscle, and I’ve also adopted a faster rep tempo working primarily within the most effective part of the rep.
I am seeing noticeable results from this.

[davie]

Sounds good. I to can only really hit the gym about 3 times a week, family wont really allow anything else just now. That is kind of what caught my eye about GVT.

what made u stop gvt after ur success with it?

Davie

[Montague]

Sounds good. I to can only really hit the gym about 3 times a week, family wont really allow anything else just now. That is kind of what caught my eye about GVT.

what made u stop gvt after ur success with it?

Davie

As good as GVT was for me, I know that I can't use it forever and enjoy the same kind of progress.

I habitually switch up my routines every 6-10 weeks, or so.
It helps prevent acclimation and, thus, stagnation of progress. 
It also keeps things interesting.
 
GVT is definitely something I will revisit at some point in the future.
I’m also toying with the idea of trying a variation that Charles Poliquin wrote about several years back - although, any deviation from 10:10 is not truly GVT, but that’s how he described it, anyway.

Most of the routines I tinker with now consist of higher-end volume because, as I mentioned, that works really well for me.
Because you experienced such favorable results with DC, you may find it more beneficial to stick with those types of protocols.

It’s good that you’re trying different things, though, because that’s how you learn what’s best for you.

[Montague]

I forgot to mention that another reason I don’t use GVT all the time is that, when done properly, it’s pretty taxing on the nervous system.
I regularly supplement with extra vitamin B-6, which supports the CNS and recovery.

Coincidentally, I believe that B vitamins were a big part of the nutritional plan of many high-volume gurus of the 60’s & 70’s.

I don’t want to turn this into a nutrition thread, but thought it worth briefly mentioning in regards to this discussion.

[davie]

Thats fine, i enjoy the nutritional talk lol.

I was thinking of using DC again, and like the feeling of beating the logg book, but it is very demanding on the body as a whole. I was havig to eazt rediculous amounts of food to make those gains. Force feeding etc, wasnt fun. I revisited DC since my success ona  diet that was clean good, and adequate to bring about small weight gain. I beat the log book, and upped the weight everysingle session, for every exercise and every bodypart, felt v strong and was moving great weights with good form, stepped on scale after a great cycle and was exactly the same weight as before lol. DC just demands ALOT of extra calories to support it, given the going to faikure on pretty much every set nature of it.

DC had also appealed b/c of the 3 times a week layout, which is what caught my eye with gvt.

Can i ask, what did you think about what i posted above (routine wise), except cutting the arm weork down to 3-4 sets of 10 reps for one exercise??

Davie

[Montague]

It doesn’t look bad at all.
JMP will give anyone some of the best advice they can get on Getbig, and I strongly agree with him that the fly’s, lateral raises, and pull downs are unnecessary and likely even counterproductive.
 
If it were me, I think I’d choose some kind of hamstring movement to do after squats - again, something for 3 sets of 10 reps.
I would not ask JPM’s advice for legs, though.
He will almost certainly recommend 20-rep breathing squats, and those can kill you!

And yes, reduce the volume of sets for direct arm work and you should be fine.

[jpm101]

GVT is not meant for a year round adventure in training. Anywhere from a fair trial of 8 weeks to 3 months tops.Can go back to GVT, if you wish, after 3 or 4 months of doing other forms of training. Remembering that your are not using extra heavy weight with it or attempting anything even near failure. The CNS (Central Nervous System..the key to steady progress) should adapt very well. Main error of people who try GVT is that of adding or dropping the weight used on the bar during the full 100 reps (10X10's=100).  Think the main problem is the mental approach, some have a hard time staying on one exercise for the full 10 sets.

Actually my favorite leg exercise is BB Hack Squats. To me, kind of like a combo reverse DL and squat. Don't have to have a bar across the shoulders for every form of squats. Also, you squat down to do regular floor DL's. Even the old Jefferson lift.

There's that old theory about lifting with a weight above or below the body's center of gravity (around the waist/belly button/small of the back area) when it comes to more focus on the hips/legs themselves. I agree with that concept. If anyone has ever used a heavy duty hip belt they would understand right away. Don't know why more PL'ers don't use that training device. If a guy has a hard time getting 1 rep with 400 in the squat, he might find that the same 400 can be rep out to 8 to 10 reps when using a hip belt. And the low back will have less stress put on it. Only problem, sometimes the belt and setting up is one pain in the ass. But than again, "What price glory".

 If serious about Ham training, than try one stretching movement (Romanian DL or SLDL) and a leg bicep curling exercise. You want to perform the action of the Ham's (curling) along with a stretch in the same leg workout. That's a full leg workout, with any other form of leg focus included. Good Luck.

[Nathan]

I did this with curls one time of course the biggest knock out in the gym just in time to see me struggling to curl 10lbs lol
oh well worth the results