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Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: bebop396 on December 20, 2007, 08:56:50 PM
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Who will be first in line to get one in May of 08, and who will say screw that, im taking a stand?
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screw that, I'm taking a stand and I don't give a shit what they do. I will not get one.
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Give me liberty of give me death! Fuck that shit!
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screw that, I'm taking a stand and I don't give a shit what they do. I will not get one.
(http://www.npr.org/programs/atc/features/2002/sept/militia/troutman.jpg)
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(http://www.npr.org/programs/atc/features/2002/sept/militia/troutman.jpg)
what's that?
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(http://www.npr.org/programs/atc/features/2002/sept/militia/troutman.jpg)
is that the guy with the shovel from home alone?
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Whats the BIG deal with getting a National ID card?
I have a passport and Driver's license, why shouldn't i want to get one?
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Whats the BIG deal with getting a National ID card?
I have a passport and Driver's license, why shouldn't i want to get one?
I agree. We all have social security cards/numbers too.
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Fine don't get a card...I say they take ur friggen license, cut off ur power and basically do whatever else to screw u. Nodoy else is these socialist utopia's u fawn over, have a problem with "paper"..stop whining.
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Whats the BIG deal with getting a National ID card?
I have a passport and Driver's license, why shouldn't i want to get one?
You give up one right and you lend yourself to being convinced to give up even more. Doesn't anyone believe their lives have value anymore? My god, we're losing touch with our with our true relationship with nature and personal power. I grieve for you.
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I make my stand as well. I will not get one. A driver's license is enough. A social security card is enough. A workplace ID is enough. A school ID is enough. I don't need another card, especially one that would contain my medical, political, driving, and other sensitive information. Take into consideration as well increased vulnerabilities to scams. Some good info on the National ID card:
http://www.ronpaul2008.com/articles/136/national-id-cards-wont-stop-terrorism-or-illegal-immigration/
http://www.news.com/FAQ-How-Real-ID-will-affect-you/2100-1028_3-5697111.html
The UK is apparently doing the same thing.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3127696.stm
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screw that, I'm taking a stand and I don't give a shit what they do. I will not get one.
Haha! You're stuck in the USA! ;D
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You give up one right and you lend yourself to being convinced to give up even more. Doesn't anyone believe their lives have value anymore? My god, we're losing touch with our with our true relationship with nature and personal power. I grieve for you.
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What right am i giving up?
Really, i'm just trying to understand this, becuase the issue seems moot becuase i and you have already many forms of ID's.
Try and be specific with out being condescending or overly dramatic in your pity.
Can you give me some real specific reasons? Or is all you have to answer with rhetorical?
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ill take one. and ill wear it around my neck on an american flag lanyard
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Have some of you conservative types who get blown out of shape over unnecessary government spending checked the price tag to TAX PAYERS for this BS? Beach Bum :D
Real ID will cost more than $11 billion to implement.
http://www.aamva.org/aamva/DocumentDisplay.aspx?id={055B37F6-E619-4ACE-AAEC-10CC9F79CB1A}
I also find it a little odd that I should have to carry around all sorts of personal data in a chip on a card that can be accessed from some kind of total information awareness database. It's bad enough what they want to put on the cards to start with, gun registrations? WHY? What's the next step past this? What will they want to have next? Where's the proof that this will help prevent terrorism? There is no actual proof this 11 billion dollar waste will do shit other than serve to have complete information on individuals accessed with great ease.
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Haha! You're stuck in the USA! ;D
No, I guess if we won't be able to do anything unless we have "our papers" to show, I'll be leaving. Not by choice, but by necessity. Not like it would be hard, the borders are wide open :D yet here we are requiring things like this to catch terrorists... Sure I buy it lol... not...
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Have some of you conservative types who get blown out of shape over unnecessary government spending checked the price tag to TAX PAYERS for this BS? Beach Bum :D
Real ID will cost more than $11 billion to implement.
http://www.aamva.org/aamva/DocumentDisplay.aspx?id={055B37F6-E619-4ACE-AAEC-10CC9F79CB1A}
I also find it a little odd that I should have to carry around all sorts of personal data in a chip on a card that can be accessed from some kind of total information awareness database. It's bad enough what they want to put on the cards to start with, gun registrations? WHY? What's the next step past this? What will they want to have next? Where's the proof that this will help prevent terrorism? There is no actual proof this 11 billion dollar waste will do shit other than serve to have complete information on individuals accessed with great ease.
Did someone mention further waste of my tax dollars? Now you have my attention. :) I perused the link. This sounds like national standards for state-issued driver's licenses, not a national ID card issued by the federal government. Part of the war on terror. Did I read that right?
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Did someone mention further waste of my tax dollars? Now you have my attention. :) I perused the link. This sounds like national standards for state-issued driver's licenses, not a national ID card issued by the federal government. Part of the war on terror. Did I read that right?
Am I missing something or are they not the same thing?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/REAL_ID_Act#Data_requirements
Regardless, this is going to cost a lot. It's not JUST nationa standards for driver's licenses from what I read.
Portions of the Real ID Act pertaining to states were scheduled to take effect on May 11, 2008, three years after the law passed, but the deadline has been extended to December 31, 2009[11].
On January 25, 2007, a Resolution passed overwhelmingly in the Maine Legislature that refuses implementation of the Real ID Act in that State, and demands Congress repeal the law. Many Maine lawmakers believe the law does more harm than good, that it would be a bureaucratic nightmare to enforce, is threatening to individual privacy, makes citizens increasingly vulnerable to ID theft, and would cost Maine taxpayers at least $185 million in five years because of the massive unfunded federal mandates on all the states. The Resolution vote in the Maine House was 137-4 and in the Maine Senate unanimously, 34-0. [12]
On February 16, 2007, Utah unanimously passed a resolution which opposes the REAL ID Act[13]. The resolution states that REAL ID is "in opposition to the Jeffersonian principles of individual liberty, free markets, and limited government." It further states that "the use of identification-based security cannot be justified as part of a 'layered' security system if the costs of the identification 'layer'--in dollars, lost privacy, and lost liberty--are greater than the security identification provides."
Arkansas, Colorado, Georgia, Hawaii, Idaho, Illinois, Michigan, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, New Hampshire, North Dakota, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Tennessee, and Washington have joined Maine in passing legislation opposing Real ID.[14][15][16][17][18]
Similar bills are pending in Alaska, Massachusetts, Oregon, Utah, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, Louisiana, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Ohio, Kentucky, West Virginia, Pennsylvania, Maryland, New York, Rhode Island, Washington, D.C., Wyoming and Vermont.[19]
Other states have moved aggressively to upgrade their IDs since 9/11, and still others have staked decidedly pro-Real ID positions, such as California [20],North Carolina[21] and New York. In announcing the new regulations, Secretary of Homeland Security Michael Chertoff cited California, Alabama and North Dakota[22] as examples of states that had made progress in complying with Real ID.
New York's new policy of issuing driver's licenses to undocumented residents upon presentation of a valid foreign passport goes against the requirements for documentation of legal status and a valid Social Security Number.
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"Honolulu is in a unique position, the only city that produces driver licenses for an entire state," said Honolulu Mayor Mufi Hannemann. "We appreciate Senator Akaka's invitation to offer our perspective on the impact of Real ID for the taxpayers of Hawaii." Hannemann testified that it would cost Honolulu an estimated "$25.55 (M) million over a 5-year period if this law were implemented."
http://akaka.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=PressReleases.Home&month=3&year=2007&release_id=1609
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REAL ID FACT SHEET
It’s a national identity system. The standardized national driver’s licenses created by Real ID would become a key part of a system of identity papers, databases, status and identity checks and access control points – an “internal passport” that will increasingly be used to track and control individuals’ movements and activities.
Will not be effective against terrorism. The fact is, identity-based security is not an effective way to stop terrorism. ID documents do not reveal anything about evil intent – and even if they did, determined terrorists will always be able to obtain fraudulent documents (either counterfeit or real documents bought from corrupt officials).
Will be a nightmare for state governments. Real ID requires state governments to remake their driver’s licenses, restructure many of their computer databases and other systems, create an extensive new document-storage system, and – perhaps most difficult of all – verify the “issuance, validity and completeness” of every document presented at DMVs. See Real Burdens.
Will mean higher fees, long lines, and bureaucratic nightmares for individuals. Because Congress ordered but did not pay for these mandates, which will cost states billions of dollars, fees on individuals applying for driver’s licenses will inevitably rise, perhaps steeply. Individuals are also likely to confront slower service, longer lines, and frequent bureaucratic snafus in obtaining these ID cards. Many unlucky individuals will find themselves caught in a bureaucratic nightmare as they run up against the complexities of this law.
Increased security and ID-theft risks. The creation of a single interlinked database as well as the requirement that each DMV store copies of every birth certificate and other documents presented to it will create a one-stop shop for identity thieves.
Will be exploited by the private sector to invade privacy. Real ID would make it easy for anybody in private industry to snap up the data on these IDs. Already, bars often swipe licenses to collect personal data on customers – but that will prove to be just the tip of the iceberg as every convenience store learns to grab that data and sell it to data companies for a dime.
Will expand over time. The Real ID database will inevitably, over time, become the repository for more and more data on individuals, and will be drawn on for an ever-wider set of purposes. Its standardized machine-readable interface will drive its integration into an ever-growing network of identity checks and access control points – each of which will create new data trails that will in turn be linked to that central database or its private-sector shadow equivalent.
http://www.consumercal.org/issues/realidtestimony/
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What I'm reading is not only Nazi-ish sounding, but a clear waste of money with zero real shown benefit to the war on terror. It's a war on something for sure.
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No, I guess if we won't be able to do anything unless we have "our papers" to show, I'll be leaving. Not by choice, but by necessity. Not like it would be hard, the borders are wide open :D yet here we are requiring things like this to catch terrorists... Sure I buy it lol... not...
The expat's life can't be beaten, I tell you. Things would have to change massively for me to even consider living in the USA again.
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It's a war on something for sure.
Personal liberty.
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What right am i giving up?
Really, i'm just trying to understand this, becuase the issue seems moot becuase i and you have already many forms of ID's.
Try and be specific with out being condescending or overly dramatic in your pity.
Can you give me some real specific reasons? Or is all you have to answer with rhetorical?
I'm sorry. I often get emotionally worked up about seeing our country slip through our fingers. We need these sort of emotions if we're to prepare for this sort of thing. I just shouldn't be displacing it.
Berserker posted great info, answering my question.
And check this out. National ID card is one step further towards and RFID chip.
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Personal liberty.
I'm sorry. I often get emotionally worked up about seeing our country slip through our fingers. We need these sort of emotions if we're to prepare for this sort of thing. I just shouldn't be displacing it.
Berserker posted great info, answering my question.
And check this out. National ID card is one step further towards and RFID chip.
They'll flip out on that video. These guys come unglued at anything conspiracy related. However in regards to RFID, that's an option that is up to Homeland Security to decide and they have talked about it and clearly like the idea.
The Real ID Act says federally accepted ID cards must be "machine readable," and lets Homeland Security determine the details. That could end up being a magnetic strip, enhanced bar code, or radio frequency identification (RFID) chips.
In the past, Homeland Security has indicated it likes the concept of RFID chips. The State Department is already going to be embedding RFID devices in passports, and Homeland Security wants to issue RFID-outfitted IDs to foreign visitors who enter the country at the Mexican and Canadian borders. The agency plans to start a yearlong test of the technology in July at checkpoints in Arizona, New York and Washington state.
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Here's a real beef to have with this national id card: They left it open to whatever Homeland Security feels like requiring on the thing and on the chip. Yea, on anything in a freedom loving society, you never hand parts of government a blank check to write in whatever they want. The room for abuse is there and I'm just not one to say, oh, they just have our best interest at heart, it's our government and they wouldn't do anything to jeopardize us. BAH... Don't doubt that absolute power corrupts absolutely--it does every single time. No "whatever you want" fill-ins for government. That's crazy and has no place here.
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Ron Paul's Writings : Reject the National ID Card
(PressMediaWire) Dr. Ron Paul writes - Washington politicians are once again seriously considering imposing a national identification card - and it may well become law before the end of the 108th Congress. The much-hailed 9/11 Commission report released in July recommends a federal identification card and, worse, a "larger network of screening points" inside the United States. Does this mean we are to have "screening points" inside our country where American citizens will be required to "show their papers" to government officials? It certainly sounds that way!
As I have written recently, the 9/11 Commission is nothing more than ex-government officials and lobbyists advising current government officials that we need more government for America to be safe. Yet it was that same government that failed so miserably on September 11, 2001.
Congress has embraced the 9/11 Commission report uncritically since its release in July. Now Congress is rushing to write each 9/11 Commission recommendation into law before the November election. In the same way Congress rushed to pass the PATRIOT Act after the September 11 attacks to be seen "doing something," it looks like Congress is about to make the same mistake again of rushing to pass liberty-destroying legislation without stopping to consider the consequences. Because it is so controversial, we may see legislation mandating a national identification card with biometric identifiers hidden in bills implementing 9/11 Commission recommendations. We have seen this technique used in the past on controversial measures.
A national identification card, in whatever form it may take, will allow the federal government to inappropriately monitor the movements and transactions of every American. History shows that governments inevitably use the power to monitor the actions of people in harmful ways. Claims that the government will protect the privacy of Americans when implementing a national identification card ring hollow. We would do well to remember what happened with the Social Security number. It was introduced with solemn restrictions on how it could be used, but it has become a de facto national identifier.
Those who are willing to allow the government to establish a Soviet-style internal passport system because they think it will make us safer are terribly mistaken. Subjecting every citizen to surveillance and "screening points" will actually make us less safe, not in the least because it will divert resources away from tracking and apprehending terrorists and deploy them against innocent Americans!
The federal government has no constitutional authority to require law-abiding Americans to present any form of identification before they engage in private transactions. Instead of forcing all Americans to prove to law enforcement that they are not terrorists, we should be focusing our resources on measures that really will make us safer. For starters, we should take a look at our dangerously porous and unguarded borders. We have seen already this summer how easy it is for individuals possibly seeking to do us harm to sneak across the border into our country. In July, Pakistani citizen Farida Goolam Mahomed Ahmed, who is on the federal watch list, reportedly crossed illegally into Texas from Mexico. She was later arrested when she tried to board a plane in New York, but she should have never been able to cross our border in the first place!
We must take effective measures to protect ourselves from a terrorist attack. That does not mean rushing to embrace legislation that in the long run will do little to stop terrorism, but will do a great deal to undermine the very way of life we should be protecting. Just as we must not allow terrorists to threaten our lives, we must not allow government to threaten our liberties. We should reject the notion of a national identification card.
SOURCE: RON PAUL ARTICLES Sept 16, 2004
http://pressmediawire.com/article.cfm?articleID=4381 (http://pressmediawire.com/article.cfm?articleID=4381)
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Thank alot guys. What everyone has said makes good sense to me.
11 billion? More waste on something that we may not need. I was thinking that last night. Why do we need a national ID card? We have passports and we have state ID's and Licenses. It's overkill in many ways and a waste of money. 11 billion is alot, and can be used for much more important things.
So if get this right here are the reasons we should NOT have National ID cards:
- We already have a form of a national ID
- We already have ID's (state, Social security number)
- It will do little to curb terrorism
- Potential abuse
- It will cost billions which becuase of the above will be a waste of money
I GET IT!
anyone want to argue the other side?
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Ron Paul's Writings : Reject the National ID Card
(PressMediaWire) Dr. Ron Paul writes - Washington politicians are once again seriously considering imposing a national identification card - and it may well become law before the end of the 108th Congress. The much-hailed 9/11 Commission report released in July recommends a federal identification card and, worse, a "larger network of screening points" inside the United States. Does this mean we are to have "screening points" inside our country where American citizens will be required to "show their papers" to government officials? It certainly sounds that way!
As I have written recently, the 9/11 Commission is nothing more than ex-government officials and lobbyists advising current government officials that we need more government for America to be safe. Yet it was that same government that failed so miserably on September 11, 2001.
Congress has embraced the 9/11 Commission report uncritically since its release in July. Now Congress is rushing to write each 9/11 Commission recommendation into law before the November election. In the same way Congress rushed to pass the PATRIOT Act after the September 11 attacks to be seen "doing something," it looks like Congress is about to make the same mistake again of rushing to pass liberty-destroying legislation without stopping to consider the consequences. Because it is so controversial, we may see legislation mandating a national identification card with biometric identifiers hidden in bills implementing 9/11 Commission recommendations. We have seen this technique used in the past on controversial measures.
A national identification card, in whatever form it may take, will allow the federal government to inappropriately monitor the movements and transactions of every American. History shows that governments inevitably use the power to monitor the actions of people in harmful ways. Claims that the government will protect the privacy of Americans when implementing a national identification card ring hollow. We would do well to remember what happened with the Social Security number. It was introduced with solemn restrictions on how it could be used, but it has become a de facto national identifier.
Those who are willing to allow the government to establish a Soviet-style internal passport system because they think it will make us safer are terribly mistaken. Subjecting every citizen to surveillance and "screening points" will actually make us less safe, not in the least because it will divert resources away from tracking and apprehending terrorists and deploy them against innocent Americans!
The federal government has no constitutional authority to require law-abiding Americans to present any form of identification before they engage in private transactions. Instead of forcing all Americans to prove to law enforcement that they are not terrorists, we should be focusing our resources on measures that really will make us safer. For starters, we should take a look at our dangerously porous and unguarded borders. We have seen already this summer how easy it is for individuals possibly seeking to do us harm to sneak across the border into our country. In July, Pakistani citizen Farida Goolam Mahomed Ahmed, who is on the federal watch list, reportedly crossed illegally into Texas from Mexico. She was later arrested when she tried to board a plane in New York, but she should have never been able to cross our border in the first place!
We must take effective measures to protect ourselves from a terrorist attack. That does not mean rushing to embrace legislation that in the long run will do little to stop terrorism, but will do a great deal to undermine the very way of life we should be protecting. Just as we must not allow terrorists to threaten our lives, we must not allow government to threaten our liberties. We should reject the notion of a national identification card.
SOURCE: RON PAUL ARTICLES Sept 16, 2004
I think I'm related to Ron Paul :D
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Thank alot guys. What everyone has said makes good sense to me.
11 billion? More waste on something that we may not need. I was thinking that last night. Why do we need a national ID card? We have passports and we have state ID's and Licenses. It's overkill in many ways and a waste of money. 11 billion is alot, and can be used for much more important things.
So if get this right here are the reasons we should NOT have National ID cards:
- We already have a form of a national ID
- We already have ID's (state, Social security number)
- It will do little to curb terrorism
- Potential abuse
- It will cost billions which becuase of the above will be a waste of money
I GET IT!
anyone want to argue the other side?
Not really an argument, but I don't take the alarmist viewpoint that this will result in some police state. The cost factor concerns me the most.
But . . . on what basis do we conclude that this will do little to curb terrorism?
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I don't understand why it never concerns Beach Bum (and some others) when our freedoms are encroached on?
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I don't understand why it never concerns Beach Bum (and some others) when our freedoms are encroached on?
And which freedoms might those be? Start with 911. What freedoms have you lost since 911?
The only "freedom" I can think of that has been encroached on--that affects me--is airport hassles. I fly a lot and I hate having to take off my shoes when going through security checkpoints. I hate the moody metal dectectors that only seem to dislike my belt when I'm late for my flight, causing me to run through the airport while holding onto my pants so they don't fall down. I don't like the fact I had to take my driver's license out of my wallet for one picky screener.
Then there was the time I was returning home with Krispy Kreme donuts the other day and the screener asked me if I had any creme filled donuts, serious face and all (cannot check liquids). He had me for a few seconds.
Other than that, I haven't seen the Gestapo at my door.
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Have some of you conservative types who get blown out of shape over unnecessary government spending checked the price tag to TAX PAYERS for this BS? Beach Bum :D
Real ID will cost more than $11 billion to implement.
http://www.aamva.org/aamva/DocumentDisplay.aspx?id={055B37F6-E619-4ACE-AAEC-10CC9F79CB1A}
I also find it a little odd that I should have to carry around all sorts of personal data in a chip on a card that can be accessed from some kind of total information awareness database. It's bad enough what they want to put on the cards to start with, gun registrations? WHY? What's the next step past this? What will they want to have next? Where's the proof that this will help prevent terrorism? There is no actual proof this 11 billion dollar waste will do shit other than serve to have complete information on individuals accessed with great ease.
Honestly, I think you're being a little Conspirational.
We've had national ID cards for years.
Thing is, if you have a Driver's licence, that will pass as an ID card, those cards are registered in the same data bank.
My guess is, that there needs to be some kind of merging of all these government registers, that would save enormous amounts of money.
I definitely think that the citizens right should be upheld: Severly restrict surveillence, don't allow the feds to hold anyone without charging them with a crime, ban any form of torture (such as fake drowning), freedom of speech, et al.
But not "cleaning" up an outdated system, is putting USA at an disadvantage in comparison to other nations.
With a proper tracking system, it would be much easier to do a lot of things: Let people vote (wouldn't have to register first), keep track of poverty rates/properly fund lagging social areas, et al.
There is a lot to gain.
And the fear is IMHO, a Hollywood creation, in other words, nothing real.
JMO.
Berserker, I'm not expecting you to change your mind, but at least look at what has been the consequences in other countries.
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Honestly, I think you're being a little Conspirational.
We've had national ID cards for years.
Thing is, if you have a Driver's licence, that will pass as an ID card, those cards are registered in the same data bank.
My guess is, that there needs to be some kind of merging of all these government registers, that would save enormous amounts of money.
I definitely think that the citizens right should be upheld: Severly restrict surveillence, don't allow the feds to hold anyone without charging them with a crime, ban any form of torture (such as fake drowning), freedom of speech, et al.
But not "cleaning" up an outdated system, is putting USA at an disadvantage in comparison to other nations.
With a proper tracking system, it would be much easier to do a lot of things: Let people vote (wouldn't have to register first), keep track of poverty rates/properly fund lagging social areas, et al.
There is a lot to gain.
And the fear is IMHO, a Hollywood creation, in other words, nothing real.
JMO.
Berserker, I'm not expecting you to change your mind, but at least look at what has been the consequences in other countries.
English=conspiratorial
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Honestly, I think you're being a little Conspirational.
We've had national ID cards for years.
Thing is, if you have a Driver's licence, that will pass as an ID card, those cards are registered in the same data bank.
My guess is, that there needs to be some kind of merging of all these government registers, that would save enormous amounts of money.
I definitely think that the citizens right should be upheld: Severly restrict surveillence, don't allow the feds to hold anyone without charging them with a crime, ban any form of torture (such as fake drowning), freedom of speech, et al.
But not "cleaning" up an outdated system, is putting USA at an disadvantage in comparison to other nations.
With a proper tracking system, it would be much easier to do a lot of things: Let people vote (wouldn't have to register first), keep track of poverty rates/properly fund lagging social areas, et al.
There is a lot to gain.
And the fear is IMHO, a Hollywood creation, in other words, nothing real.
JMO.
Berserker, I'm not expecting you to change your mind, but at least look at what has been the consequences in other countries.
HAHAHAHAHA....
From start to finish, complete nonsense. What Hollywood creation? Where is the Hollywood movies scaring us about National ID cards? This is infact more based on warnings about government handed down generation to generation here in America. It comes from knowing what has happend so often in past governments. You've had National ID cards for years? Have you all had National ID long enough to actually speak on any kind of track record?
I definitely think that the citizens right should be upheld: Severly restrict surveillence, don't allow the feds to hold anyone without charging them with a crime, ban any form of torture (such as fake drowning), freedom of speech, et al.
Oh yea, we're doing so good in this department, clearly I'm just being a paranoid CTer ::)
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I have another idea Hedge, maybe the states are outdated systems all together. Get rid of all those bureaucracies and just let washington handle it all... Congress has already been severely weakened and is coming close to looking like it is powerless against the presidency... but that won't due because we won't be able to compete against the EU and other emerging unions, so let's just go with the North American Union for a few years then when we're all similarly harmonized in systems we can clearly see the waste involved in having these separate unions. We can just have one ring to rule them all :D
::)
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HAHAHAHAHA....
From start to finish, complete nonsense. What Hollywood creation? Where is the Hollywood movies scaring us about National ID cards? This is infact more based on warnings about government handed down generation to generation here in America. It comes from knowing what has happend so often in past governments. You've had National ID cards for years? Have you all had National ID long enough to actually speak on any kind of track record?
Oh yea, we're doing so good in this department, clearly I'm just being a paranoid CTer ::)
I think the ID system came about in the late 1940's in Sweden. So yes. I think it's safe to say that we have a "track record".
Regarding the Hollywood theory of mine: Why do you think the X-files had such a big following? Or Prison Break? Lone Gunmen? Millennium? Conspiracy Theory? I could go on forever.
Plenty of material with some "governmental" plot behind it.
So naturally, when someone who is watching a lot of conspiracy themed movies and tv shows, can definitely have problem separating fact and fiction when a National ID card is introduced.
And will somehow believe that conspiracies, just because they happen in the movies, also happens in real life.
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I think the ID system came about in the late 1940's in Sweden. So yes. I think it's safe to say that we have a "track record".
Regarding the Hollywood theory of mine: Why do you think the X-files had such a big following? Or Prison Break? Lone Gunmen? Millennium? Conspiracy Theory? I could go on forever.
Plenty of material with some "governmental" plot behind it.
So naturally, when someone who is watching a lot of conspiracy themed movies and tv shows, can definitely have problem separating fact and fiction when a National ID card is introduced.
And will somehow believe that conspiracies, just because they happen in the movies, also happens in real life.
Sweden? How can you relate a country that is only a little larger than Montana to what is being implemented here? You can't... And guess what, there are movies on everything in existence so your theory could be applied to everything. I'll tell you why you're wrong... I can track my distrust of government to a long tradition predating hollywood in America. We aren't sucked into conspiracy by watching X files and Conspiracy theory ::) We don't trust government because governments have a long tradition of morphing into tyrannical systems. There is no conspiracy theory behind that fact. There is nothing paranoid conspiracy related to being entirely against handing government a blank check to fill in however they like. As this is written, what is required to be written on the chips on these ID cards is open to whatever DHS wants to put on it. I'm quite sure that the first items will be not such a big deal, but then what's next and trust me, if history tells us anything, it's very valid to ask what's next on this blank check handed to DHS...
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http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e10_1198179351
What say you "patriots"?
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Sweden? How can you relate a country that is only a little larger than Montana to what is being implemented here? You can't... And guess what, there are movies on everything in existence so your theory could be applied to everything. I'll tell you why you're wrong... I can track my distrust of government to a long tradition predating hollywood in America. We aren't sucked into conspiracy by watching X files and Conspiracy theory ::) We don't trust government because governments have a long tradition of morphing into tyrannical systems. There is no conspiracy theory behind that fact. There is nothing paranoid conspiracy related to being entirely against handing government a blank check to fill in however they like. As this is written, what is required to be written on the chips on these ID cards is open to whatever DHS wants to put on it. I'm quite sure that the first items will be not such a big deal, but then what's next and trust me, if history tells us anything, it's very valid to ask what's next on this blank check handed to DHS...
First you ask if we have any track record of ID system.
And when I point out that we do, it all of a sudden isn't valid anymore, because our country is some Liliput nation, the size of Montana?
Why did you ask for a track record in the first place, if the experiences from my country wasn't comparable anyway? ???
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First you ask if we have any track record of ID system.
And when I point out that we do, it all of a sudden isn't valid anymore, because our country is some Liliput nation, the size of Montana?
Why did you ask for a track record in the first place, if the experiences from my country wasn't comparable anyway? ???
because I thought you were talking about some EU thing. That might be something you could have some comparison for. The better question is why would you think there would be any valid similarities between some place the size of a state in America and our proposed national ID? I mean we've had what you have for that long too! They're called State Driver's Licenses and counties can't issue a different License. Have you had the issues America has with States fighting for rights over a central government they're trying to keep from becoming more powerful?
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Ive heard there are states that will be fighting the national id card and will lose govt funding...
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Ive heard there are states that will be fighting the national id card and will lose govt funding...
yea, the usual bribery system only I think more states are taking a stand on this than past issues forced on the states. Like letting whole states fall to shit will be in any interest of the federal gov. The states should just stand together and call their bluff. See if they really want 1/3 of the states to fall apart. See how it goes for them in the news when more and more bridges start collapsing because they wanted to bribe the states...
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On February 16, 2007, Utah unanimously passed a resolution which opposes the REAL ID Act[13]. The resolution states that REAL ID is "in opposition to the Jeffersonian principles of individual liberty, free markets, and limited government." It further states that "the use of identification-based security cannot be justified as part of a 'layered' security system if the costs of the identification 'layer'--in dollars, lost privacy, and lost liberty--are greater than the security identification provides."
Arkansas, Colorado, Georgia, Hawaii, Idaho, Illinois, Michigan, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, New Hampshire, North Dakota, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Tennessee, and Washington have joined Maine in passing legislation opposing Real ID.[14][15][16][17][18]
Similar bills are pending in Alaska, Massachusetts, Oregon, Utah, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, Louisiana, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Ohio, Kentucky, West Virginia, Pennsylvania, Maryland, New York, Rhode Island, Washington, D.C., Wyoming and Vermont.[19]
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If that many states stand their ground on this, the government is fucked. They will have to change a few things.
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SUPERBLY LONG ARTICLE BUT SHEDS SOME LIGHT ON THE INSANITY THAT WILL UNFOLD IN MY STATE ALONE IN ALABAMA...
What's the fuss ? That's the fuss.
What’s Wrong With Real ID.
It’s a national identity system. The standardized national driver’s licenses created by Real ID would become a key part of a system of identity papers, databases, status and identity checks and access control points – an “internal passport” that will increasingly be used to track and control individuals’ movements and activities.
Will not be effective against terrorism. The fact is, identity-based security is not an effective way to stop terrorism. ID documents do not reveal anything about evil intent – and even if they did, determined terrorists will always be able to obtain fraudulent documents (either counterfeit or real documents bought from corrupt officials).
Will be a nightmare for state governments. Real ID requires state governments to remake their driver’s licenses, restructure many of their computer databases and other systems, create an extensive new document-storage system, and – perhaps most difficult of all – verify the “issuance, validity and completeness” of every document presented at DMVs.
Will mean higher fees, long lines, and bureaucratic nightmares for individuals. Because Congress ordered but did not pay for these mandates, which will cost states billions of dollars, fees on individuals applying for driver’s licenses will inevitably rise, perhaps steeply. Individuals are also likely to confront slower service, longer lines, and frequent bureaucratic snafus in obtaining these ID cards. Many unlucky individuals will find themselves caught in a bureaucratic nightmare as they run up against the complexities of this law.
Increased security and ID-theft risks. The creation of a single interlinked database as well as the requirement that each DMV store copies of every birth certificate and other documents presented to it will create a one-stop shop for identity thieves.
Will be exploited by the private sector to invade privacy. Real ID would make it easy for anybody in private industry to snap up the data on these IDs. Already, bars often swipe licenses to collect personal data on customers – but that will prove to be just the tip of the iceberg as every convenience store learns to grab that data and sell it to data companies for a dime.
Will expand over time. The Real ID database will inevitably, over time, become the repository for more and more data on individuals, and will be drawn on for an ever-wider set of purposes. Its standardized machine-readable interface will drive its integration into an ever-growing network of identity checks and access control points – each of which will create new data trails that will in turn be linked to that central database or its private-sector shadow equivalent.
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The Alabama Mess: One State Tries To Begin Tackling Real ID
State administrators, governors, and others have been warning about the disruption and chaos that actual implementation of Real ID will likely bring. This is not mere speculation, however - one attempt to begin initiating early compliance with the law already created such enormous confusion and disruption that it had to be halted.
One of the Real ID Act's requirements is that names on compliant driver's licenses must exactly match individuals' names as held by the Social Security Administration. Noting this, officials in Alabama decided to get a head start on complying with that aspect of the law. The state's motor vehicles department (the Department of Public Safety or DPS), began sending letters to individuals whose records were mismatched, demanding that they correct the "erroneous" information on their driver's licenses.
The result was a fiasco. Thousands of panicked Alabama residents jammed DPS offices worried that they would lose their right to drive. And, because the state began its records review with the oldest records, many of the reported 65,000-80,000 drivers who got letters were senior citizens.
Many recipients of the letter - some of whom had been driving for 50 years or longer - became panicked that they would lose their means of traveling around the largely rural state. Many elderly drivers were also reportedly worried that their Social Security checks or pensions would be interrupted if they did not "fix" the problem right away. "Here are people who have been law-abiding citizens all their lives, and then they get this letter," state legislator Neal Morrison told the Associated Press. "It scared them to death."
Anyone whose name as recorded by the motor vehicles department differed by the slightest amount from the way their name was recorded by the Social Security Administration received a letter. Recipients were instructed that they had to visit a DPS office to "correct" their data before they would be allowed to renew their license. That included, for example, women who had changed their last name on one card but not the other after a marriage or divorce, people with nicknames, and even those with slight variations in their names, such as a middle initial appearing on one but not the other. In quintessential bureaucratic fashion, the letter informed individuals that the name as listed on their driver's license - though it might well be a person's preferred form of address - was "erroneous."
Many citizens were also angered by the delays and fees that they encountered when they tried to comply with the letter. One 70-year-old woman had to go to the motor vehicles office for three days straight, the AP reported, finally obtaining a new license on the third day after a two-and-a-half-hour wait. Then, she was asked to pay an $18 fee - the state's standard payment for a new or duplicate license – and she "hit the ceiling."Another cost for many was the need to pay additional fees to obtain a new or replacement birth certificate.
Apologetic DPS officials halted the effort in the face of all these problems (including calls from state legislators who had heard from their constituents), and promised to try to lessen the problems by clarifying their explanations of the situation in future letters. Nevertheless, the fact remained that the cause of the disruption was not going to go away: the looming reality of the REAL ID Act. As the Alabama officials explained, "Public Safety regrets the inconvenience, aggregation and confusion this has caused licensed drivers, but we are mandated to do this by federal law."
Alabama's unfortunate experience trying to get a jump on implementing just one aspect of the sprawling Real ID legislation is merely a glimpse of what states and their residents can expect over the next few years if implementation of this legislation proceeds as scheduled. Bureaucratic hair-splitting, confusing instructions, long waits, overwhelmed offices, missed work, infuriating bureaucratic runarounds, and additional fees are what this legislation promises for Americans. All for - what?
SOURCES
M.J. Ellington, "Your life on your license: Alabama a step ahead in national ID debate," The Decatur Daily News, May 13, 2005;
http://www.decaturdaily.com/decaturdaily/news/050513/id.shtml
overhaul source :
http://www.realnightmare.org/
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good read bebop
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This thread is dead...
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This thread got awesome and intelligent and I need some time to read your responses!!