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Getbig Misc Discussion Boards => Religious Debates & Threads => Topic started by: Straw Man on December 23, 2007, 11:25:34 AM
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Societies worse off 'when they have God on their side'
By Ruth Gledhill, Religion Correspondent
link to article: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1798944,00.html
link to study referenced in article: http://moses.creighton.edu/jrs/2005/2005-11.html
RELIGIOUS belief can cause damage to a society, contributing towards high murder rates, abortion, sexual promiscuity and suicide, according to research published today.
According to the study, belief in and worship of God are not only unnecessary for a healthy society but may actually contribute to social problems.
The study counters the view of believers that religion is necessary to provide the moral and ethical foundations of a healthy society.
It compares the social peformance of relatively secular countries, such as Britain, with the US, where the majority believes in a creator rather than the theory of evolution. Many conservative evangelicals in the US consider Darwinism to be a social evil, believing that it inspires atheism and amorality.
Many liberal Christians and believers of other faiths hold that religious belief is socially beneficial, believing that it helps to lower rates of violent crime, murder, suicide, sexual promiscuity and abortion. The benefits of religious belief to a society have been described as its “spiritual capital”. But the study claims that the devotion of many in the US may actually contribute to its ills.
The paper, published in the Journal of Religion and Society, a US academic journal, reports: “Many Americans agree that their churchgoing nation is an exceptional, God-blessed, shining city on the hill that stands as an impressive example for an increasingly sceptical world.
“In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy and abortion in the prosperous democracies.
“The United States is almost always the most dysfunctional of the developing democracies, sometimes spectacularly so.”
Gregory Paul, the author of the study and a social scientist, used data from the International Social Survey Programme, Gallup and other research bodies to reach his conclusions.
He compared social indicators such as murder rates, abortion, suicide and teenage pregnancy.
The study concluded that the US was the world’s only prosperous democracy where murder rates were still high, and that the least devout nations were the least dysfunctional. Mr Paul said that rates of gonorrhoea in adolescents in the US were up to 300 times higher than in less devout democratic countries. The US also suffered from “ uniquely high” adolescent and adult syphilis infection rates, and adolescent abortion rates, the study suggested.
Mr Paul said: “The study shows that England, despite the social ills it has, is actually performing a good deal better than the USA in most indicators, even though it is now a much less religious nation than America.”
He said that the disparity was even greater when the US was compared with other countries, including France, Japan and the Scandinavian countries. These nations had been the most successful in reducing murder rates, early mortality, sexually transmitted diseases and abortion, he added.
Mr Paul delayed releasing the study until now because of Hurricane Katrina. He said that the evidence accumulated by a number of different studies suggested that religion might actually contribute to social ills. “I suspect that Europeans are increasingly repelled by the poor societal performance of the Christian states,” he added.
He said that most Western nations would become more religious only if the theory of evolution could be overturned and the existence of God scientifically proven. Likewise, the theory of evolution would not enjoy majority support in the US unless there was a marked decline in religious belief, Mr Paul said.
“The non-religious, proevolution democracies contradict the dictum that a society cannot enjoy good conditions unless most citizens ardently believe in a moral creator.
“The widely held fear that a Godless citizenry must experience societal disaster is therefore refuted.”
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Now that's interesting.
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Now that's interesting.
I've been saying it for years.
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With the exception of the gender inequality, how does this apply to Mormon society? Look at how much wealth they've amassed in less than 200 years.
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This is arguably the most ridiculous study I've ever heard of. ::)
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This is arguably the most ridiculous study I've ever heard of. ::)
Why?
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Why?
I understand why you would jump all over something like this, but it's really something I would expect to find on The Onion. I'm not even sure where to begin. Here are a few reasons this "study" is absurd:
1. No, teaching people that murder is a sin does not increase instances of murder. How ridiculous is that?
2. Religion has been deeply ingrained in our society from its inception. It is one of the primary reasons we are successful. Pretty much every community in this country has multiple churches, multiple religions, religious schools, religious hospitals, religious colleges and universities, etc. To say in any way that these contribute to crime is ludicrous.
3. Every president in our history and probably every member of Congress has at least professed to "have God on their side."
4. Every Congressional session begins with prayer. There are chaplains on the federal government payroll. In other words, a professed belief in God has been intertwined with our government pretty much since its inception.
5. Federal court sessions begin with "God save this honorable court." In other words, a professed belief in God has been interwoven in our legal system pretty much since the beginning.
6. There are chaplains on the military payroll that minister to the greatest fighting force in the world. In other words, a professed belief in God has assisted with the creation of the greatest military on the planet.
7. There are numerous "religious" communities all around the country. I'll just talk about one here in Hawaii. The town of Laiae has a huge Mormon church, a BYU-Hawaii campus, and the Polynesian Cultural Center. It is one of the nicest and safest communities on the island. I think that is duplicated in many other cities around the country. I wonder how the crime rate in Utah compares to the rest of the country? Same with many of the Bible belt communities?
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I understand why you would jump all over something like this, but it's really something I would expect to find on The Onion. I'm not even sure where to begin. Here are a few reasons this "study" is absurd:
1. No, teaching people that murder is a sin does not increase instances of murder. How ridiculous is that?
2. Religion has been deeply ingrained in our society from its inception. It is one of the primary reasons we are successful. Pretty much every community in this country has multiple churches, multiple religions, religious schools, religious hospitals, religious colleges and universities, etc. To say in any way that these contribute to crime is ludicrous.
3. Every president in our history and probably every member of Congress has at least professed to "have God on their side."
4. Every Congressional session begins with prayer. There are chaplains on the federal government payroll. In other words, a professed belief in God has been intertwined with our government pretty much since its inception.
5. Federal court sessions begin with "God save this honorable court." In other words, a professed belief in God has been interwoven in our legal system pretty much since the beginning.
6. There are chaplains on the military payroll that minister to the greatest fighting force in the world. In other words, a professed belief in God has assisted with the creation of the greatest military on the planet.
7. There are numerous "religious" communities all around the country. I'll just talk about one here in Hawaii. The town of Laiae has a huge Mormon church, a BYU-Hawaii campus, and the Polynesian Cultural Center. It is one of the nicest and safest communities on the island. I think that is duplicated in many other cities around the country. I wonder how the crime rate in Utah compares to the rest of the country? Same with many of the Bible belt communities?
How do you explain that the 'Red' southern States, highly religious and Christian have much higher occurences of rape, murder, theft, incest, pregnancy, etc. compared to the North East?
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/141282/are_religious_children_committing_more.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States
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I understand why you would jump all over something like this, but it's really something I would expect to find on The Onion. I'm not even sure where to begin. Here are a few reasons this "study" is absurd:
1. No, teaching people that murder is a sin does not increase instances of murder. How ridiculous is that? no one said that teaching that murder is a sin increased the instances of murder - what the study concluded was that societies that poll as being most religious have the higher instances of homicide
2. Religion has been deeply ingrained in our society from its inception. It is one of the primary reasons we are successful. Pretty much every community in this country has multiple churches, multiple religions, religious schools, religious hospitals, religious colleges and universities, etc. To say in any way that these contribute to crime is ludicrous. no doubt that religion is deeply ingrained in "our society" (what's your definition of that again?) but your conclusion that it's the primary reason that we're successful is totally unprovable and basically meaningless
3. Every president in our history and probably every member of Congress has at least professed to "have God on their side." again - so what? this has nothing to do with the study, the data analyzed, the conclusions, etc...
4. Every Congressional session begins with prayer. There are chaplains on the federal government payroll. In other words, a professed belief in God has been intertwined with our government pretty much since its inception. see above
5. Federal court sessions begin with "God save this honorable court." In other words, a professed belief in God has been interwoven in our legal system pretty much since the beginning. yes, I get it - you see reference to you local tribal myths everywhere - again what does this specifically have to do with the data, the conclusion etc... ?
6. There are chaplains on the military payroll that minister to the greatest fighting force in the world. In other words, a professed belief in God has assisted with the creation of the greatest military on the planet. you make a statement and then draw a conclusion that you can't prove - also has nothing to do with ...well, you know - see above
7. There are numerous "religious" communities all around the country. I'll just talk about one here in Hawaii. The town of Laiae has a huge Mormon church, a BYU-Hawaii campus, and the Polynesian Cultural Center. It is one of the nicest and safest communities on the island. I think that is duplicated in many other cities around the country. I wonder how the crime rate in Utah compares to the rest of the country? Same with many of the Bible belt communities? so you're saying we should all become Mormon's? Again, if you want to talk about the actual study then let's define "societies" The guy who did the study was looking at publicly available data about countries not religous sects inside countries.
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How do you explain that the 'Red' southern States, highly religious and Christian have much higher occurences of rape, murder, theft, incest, pregnancy, etc. compared to the North East?
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/141282/are_religious_children_committing_more.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States
That’s really a misleading comment/question. The most dangerous places in the country are New York City, Los Angeles, D.C., Chicago, Philly, etc.
Regarding higher crime rates in southern states, there is a direct correlation between income, education, and crime. I'm sure that higher crime rates on those states are related to those factors and not religion.
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That’s really a misleading comment/question. The most dangerous places in the country are New York City, Los Angeles, D.C., Chicago, Philly, etc.
Regarding higher crime rates in southern states, there is a direct correlation between income, education, and crime. I'm sure that higher crime rates on those states are related to those factors and not religion.
Which leads us to the next point; generally speaking, sincerely religious people tend to be less intelligent than their counterparts so it all fits together. All of those cities have huge populations and if you were to scale them, NYC at least would do quite well.
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Which leads us to the next point; generally speaking, sincerely religious people tend to be less intelligent than their counterparts so it all fits together. All of those cities have huge populations and if you were to scale them, NYC at least would do quite well.
Oh please. Proof? I suggest you take a look at a couple threads I started here several months back that talked about belief in God in this country, which I recall was about 91 percent. From there you can then try and establish that "sincerely religious people tend to be less intelligent." And while you're at it, check and see how many parochial schools there are in this country and how many divinity schools there are (hint they're even at Ivy League schools). I'm about to start my movie night with the kiddies, so you have all night. :)
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Which leads us to the next point; generally speaking, sincerely religious people tend to be less intelligent than their counterparts so it all fits together. All of those cities have huge populations and if you were to scale them, NYC at least would do quite well.
I'm not sure I would say less intelligent but definintely less educated
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Oh please. Proof? I suggest you take a look at a couple threads I started here several months back that talked about belief in God in this country, which I recall was about 91 percent. From there you can then try and establish that "sincerely religious people tend to be less intelligent." And while you're at it, check and see how many parochial schools there are in this country and how many divinity schools there are (hint they're even at Ivy League schools). I'm about to start my movie night with the kiddies, so you have all night. :)
I don't know the threads you are talking about so if you can summarize that would be great
again - try to actually show me some proof that specific religious belief resulted in a net gain as compared with no belief or a much lower level of belief at the level of a society
we're obviously limited by the constraints of the data but you can see what I'm talking about - hopefully
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Oh please. Proof? I suggest you take a look at a couple threads I started here several months back that talked about belief in God in this country, which I recall was about 91 percent.
Bum,
as you've claimed, 91% of our country supposedly believe in God - and I'm guessing you assume they all believe in your perception of God
yet we have higher rates of homicide, STD's et...
that is what the study is looking at
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I don't know if you can conclude just from looking at the United States versus Britain that "religion makes a society worse off". There are many other cultural factors (not including religion) involved. The article doesn't say enough for me to say the "proof" is conclusive one way or the other.
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I don't know if you can conclude just from looking at the United States versus Britain that "religion makes a society worse off". There are many other cultural factors (not including religion) involved. The article does say enough for me to say the "proof" is conclusive one way or the other.
that's a good point but the study did look at more than Britain and the US.
I do agree that there are many other factors that almost certainly contribute to a society/country being "better off" and like any other study it's definitely not perfect or definitive in and of itself
Every country is unique and, for example, the US has many social/historical issues that other countries simply don't have. It's impossible to make an apples to apples comparison
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When one looks at the United States, even though Religion is deeply intertwined in our culture so is hypocrisy. People came here to avoid religious persecution, yet applied their own set of rules to the native peoples. It was stated that this country is for the free, yet they had slaves. Certain men were considered 3/5th of a man, but yet his woman was "all woman" in the bed room. And lets not start on Manifest Destiny...And many of this was done all under the guise of Christianity. It is not religion, but men who try to control religion.
"The primary commitment of politicians is not religion, but the use of religion for political purposes. What really breeds violence is political differences...authentic religion is the search for the deeply real and is the greatest humanizing force we have"
----Hudson Smith
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I don't know the threads you are talking about so if you can summarize that would be great
again - try to actually show me some proof that specific religious belief resulted in a net gain as compared with no belief or a much lower level of belief at the level of a society
we're obviously limited by the constraints of the data but you can see what I'm talking about - hopefully
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=155031.0
And
"The 90% of adults who believe in God include 93% of women, 96% of African-Americans and 93% of Republicans but only 86% of men, 85% of those with postgraduate degrees, and 87% of political independents."
http://www.harrisinteractive.com/harris_poll/index.asp?PID=359
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Bum,
as you've claimed, 91% of our country supposedly believe in God - and I'm guessing you assume they all believe in your perception of God
yet we have higher rates of homicide, STD's et...
that is what the study is looking at
I didn't claim anything. I referenced a poll.
The "study" is a croc. I wonder how many criminals they interviewed to gain empirical information about why the person committed their crime? This is really absurd. Might as well establish a link between those who kill and those who eat Jell-O. ::)
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I think belief in god (higher power) and some sort of punishment in the afterlife is what holds much of society together.
We as a society are still barbaric in many ways and have not matured to the point of knowing right from wrong with out guidance or being motivated to do right and not wrong without the threat of punishment.
"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws" -Plato.
What ever these studies are, I think you'd have to take them with a grain of salt as we don't know how a society would act and behave if GOD was ever proved to not exist and that we are just animals who actions will never be held accountable after we die.
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I think belief in god (higher power) and some sort of punishment in the afterlife is what holds much of society together.
We as a society are still barbaric in many ways and have not matured to the point of knowing right from wrong with out guidance or being motivated to do right and not wrong without the threat of punishment.
"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws" -Plato.
What ever these studies are, I think you'd have to take them with a grain of salt as we don't know how a society would act and behave if GOD was ever proved to not exist and that we are just animals who actions will never be held accountable after we die.
Look at the Scandinvian countries who are as atheistic as they come and never even think about divine punishments or what have you. They have the lowest crime rates on earth. So this notion that we need a divine bully to keepus in check in utter nonsense.
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Look at the Scandinvian countries who are as atheistic as they come and never even think about divine punishments or what have you. They have the lowest crime rates on earth. So this notion that we need a divine bully to keepus in check in utter nonsense.
Not at all.
What happens in Iceland wouldn't happen in New Orleans, New York city, or in the middle east.
I think you are not getting my point.
Ice land may be with it's low population, more civilized society and isolation able to do that, but the rest of the world? No way.
As a whole we are not there yet.
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Not at all.
What happens in Iceland wouldn't happen in New Orleans, New York city, or in the middle east.
I think you are not getting my point.
Ice land may be with it's low population, more civilized society and isolation able to do that, but the rest of the world? No way.
As a whole we are not there yet.
Continental Scandinavia is not as isolated from the rest of the world but you are right; in the USA there is too much religious white trash to ever get there.
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I think belief in god (higher power) and some sort of punishment in the afterlife is what holds much of society together.
We as a society are still barbaric in many ways and have not matured to the point of knowing right from wrong with out guidance or being motivated to do right and not wrong without the threat of punishment.
"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws" -Plato.
What ever these studies are, I think you'd have to take them with a grain of salt as we don't know how a society would act and behave if GOD was ever proved to not exist and that we are just animals who actions will never be held accountable after we die.
I agree. It is the central to our fabric. Babies are christened and dedicated in church. Boys have their Bar Mitzvah in the temple. Many young kids spend time in choirs, Sunday schools, etc. Teenagers are baptized in church. People get married in church. Funerals are held in church. Kids are educated in parochial schools and adults are educated in parochial colleges and universities. There are literally hundreds of religious-based hospitals and clinics. There are tons of religious publishing houses that produce millions of books and magazines. It is likely that every military base has a chapel. People flock to church in times of crisis. Remember what happened to church attendance after 911? It is really impossible to separate the role of religion and faith and belief in God from American society.
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I agree. It is the central to our fabric. Babies are christened and dedicated in church. Boys have their Bar Mitzvah in the temple. Many young kids spend time in choirs, Sunday schools, etc. Teenagers are baptized in church. People get married in church. Funerals are held in church. Kids are educated in parochial schools and adults are educated in parochial colleges and universities. There are literally hundreds of religious-based hospitals and clinics. There are tons of religious publishing houses that produce millions of books and magazines. It is likely that every military base has a chapel. People flock to church in times of crisis. Remember what happened to church attendance after 911? It is really impossible to separate the role of religion and faith and belief in God from American society.
None of the above mentioned is an argument for the existence of the Christian deity, nor whether religion as a whole is beneficial to society. All you have established is that religion is firmly rooted in the USA and we all know that. Great. Scandinavians have none of this and get along just fine.
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None of the above mentioned is an argument for the existence of the Christian deity, nor whether religion as a whole is beneficial to society. All you have established is that religion is firmly rooted in the USA and we all know that. Great. Scandinavians have none of this and get along just fine.
I wasn't making an argument for the existence of God.
You are correct that religion is firmly rooted in the USA. The USA gets along just fine. We are the greatest country in the history of the world. People are falling all over themselves to move here. Wouldn't surprise me if we lead the world in immigration. Are people flocking to Scandinavia?
I don't know anything about religion and belief in God in Scandinavia.
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I didn't claim anything. I referenced a poll.
The "study" is a croc. I wonder how many criminals they interviewed to gain empirical information about why the person committed their crime? This is really absurd. Might as well establish a link between those who kill and those who eat Jell-O. ::)
You say the study is a "croc" but you don't have any criticism of the methodology and from the questions you asked about how many criminals they interviewed it's obvious that you didn't even look at the study (link in the first post on this thread) and just responded with an emotional gut reaction.
Go back and look at the study and see the data sources for the rates of religious belief and practice and then tell me what your problem is with the data. Before you do that though also look at the sources for the data on aspects of societal health and dysfunction.
Maybe then we can have an intelligent discussion.
BTW - if you read the study you might have seen this paragraph:
This study is a first, brief look at an important subject that has been almost entirely neglected by social scientists. The primary intent is to present basic correlations of the elemental data. Some conclusions that can be gleaned from the plots are outlined. This is not an attempt to present a definitive study that establishes cause versus effect between religiosity, secularism and societal health. It is hoped that these original correlations and results will spark future research and debate on the issue.
As you've pointed out now at least 3 times (and guess what - the same # is mentioned in the study) ~ 90% of Americans profess a belief in God, Divine Creator,etc.. and yet in spite of the fact that the vast majority of our population believes in God we have a substantially higher rate of Homicide, STDs, etc... i.e this belief does not seem to translate into a benefit for society as defined by this study and in fact there seems there might actually be a negative correlation.
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I wasn't making an argument for the existence of God.
You are correct that religion is firmly rooted in the USA. The USA gets along just fine. We are the greatest country in the history of the world. People are falling all over themselves to move here. Wouldn't surprise me if we lead the world in immigration. Are people flocking to Scandinavia?
I don't know anything about religion and belief in God in Scandinavia.
Hold on there Wayne Gro, there is no such thing as the greatest country in the world. I grew up in the USA and have left, choosing to live elsewhere because of its deficiencies. The USA has the highest rate of overall crime of any industrialised nation and you call that just getting along fine? ::)
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I think belief in god (higher power) and some sort of punishment in the afterlife is what holds much of society together.
We as a society are still barbaric in many ways and have not matured to the point of knowing right from wrong with out guidance or being motivated to do right and not wrong without the threat of punishment.
"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws" -Plato.
What ever these studies are, I think you'd have to take them with a grain of salt as we don't know how a society would act and behave if GOD was ever proved to not exist and that we are just animals who actions will never be held accountable after we die.
I disagree.
I don't see much religion where I live, and there is less than 300 murders every year in the whole of Sweden, that number has been consistent since the 70's.
What has been shown to have importance however, is to have a civic society, that we socialize in organisations.
Robert Putnam showed this with a study of the difference in democracy levels in northern and southern Italy, where in Northern Italy, for centuries people had been organised in choirs, football clubs, church clubs, and various forms of social activities.
Whereas in southern Italy, they had not, and the level of democracy (voting numbers et al) where much lower.
There is also a book, Bowling Alone, which deals with how the foundation for democracy in USA is eroding, where in the past Americans were spending time together, eg bowling in clubs, but nowadays spend more and more time on their own, in front of the TV.
Very interesting book.
I believe Putnam has a point, and that it is the lack of socializing that could lead to a downfall of a society.
Not whether or not a society is religious.
Eg, look at Iran, a very religious society. And far from a democracy.
Another example, related to Christianity: Look at Spain in the 60's and the 70's. Christian. And a home for fascism. And France, England, Germany and many other countries in the 19th century. None of them were democracies.
But they were all Christian nations, and very religious.
So there is no correlation between a high level of democracy and a high level of religiousity.
I would rather say that fanatism is one of the factors that effectively prevents democracy.
But organised socializing will definitely help democracy. Check out Putnam's work.
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I disagree.
I don't see much religion where I live, and there is less than 300 murders every year in the whole of Sweden, that number has been consistent since the 70's.
What has been shown to have importance however, is to have a civic society, that we socialize in organisations.
Robert Putnam showed this with a study of the difference in democracy levels in northern and southern Italy, where in Northern Italy, for centuries people had been organised in choirs, football clubs, church clubs, and various forms of social activities.
Whereas in southern Italy, they had not, and the level of democracy (voting numbers et al) where much lower.
There is also a book, Bowling Alone, which deals with how the foundation for democracy in USA is eroding, where in the past Americans were spending time together, eg bowling in clubs, but nowadays spend more and more time on their own, in front of the TV.
Very interesting book.
I believe Putnam has a point, and that it is the lack of socializing that could lead to a downfall of a society.
Not whether or not a society is religious.
Eg, look at Iran, a very religious society. And far from a democracy.
Another example, related to Christianity: Look at Spain in the 60's and the 70's. Christian. And a home for fascism. And France, England, Germany and many other countries in the 19th century. None of them were democracies.
But they were all Christian nations, and very religious.
So there is no correlation between a high level of democracy and a high level of religiousity.
I would rather say that fanatism is one of the factors that effectively prevents democracy.
But organised socializing will definitely help democracy. Check out Putnam's work.
Funny mixing up American and British orthography! ;D
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Funny mixing up American and British orthography! ;D
My only excuse is that I've been scholed in both. :-[ ;D
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My only excuse is that I've been scholed in both. :-[ ;D
Schooled.
You should write Swedish more often on the boards Hedge; I would appreciate it. ;)
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Hold on there Wayne Gro, there is no such thing as the greatest country in the world. I grew up in the USA and have left, choosing to live elsewhere because of its deficiencies. The USA has the highest rate of overall crime of any industrialised nation and you call that just getting along fine? ::)
Yes there is. It's one you left and the one millions of others flock to every year, both legally and illegally. Our society isn't perfect, but it offers tremendous opportunities. Land of the free, home of the brave mang. That's why the world is dying to move here.
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Yes there is. It's one you left and the one millions of others flock to every year, both legally and illegally. Our society isn't perfect, but it offers tremendous opportunities. Land of the free, home of the brave mang. That's why the world is dying to move here.
You could of course argue that one country is the greatest in the world.
And several different organizations make such ratings every year, there are IT ratings, democracy index, health index, overall welfare index, well being index, et al.
My guess is that back in the 50's and 60's, you would not have had any real argument that USA would top any kind of rating of how well a nation is doing.
Eg, the Economist Democracy Index ranking currently has Sweden in the first place.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index#January.2C_2007_ranking
Denmark is currently ranked as the number one nation for IT:
http://www.weforum.org/en/initiatives/gcp/Global%20Information%20Technology%20Report/index.htm
France has the best health care system:
http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html
Luxemburg and Norway are the two richest countries:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28nominal%29_per_capita
So it is quite difficult to say that USA is the greatest country in the world, at least if you want to base it purely on facts.
Of course, a US citizen should believe so, as should a Norwegian or a Russian believe that their country is the greatest in the world. Nothing wrong with that.
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You could of course argue that one country is the greatest in the world.
And several different organizations make such ratings every year, there are IT ratings, democracy index, health index, overall welfare index, well being index, et al.
My guess is that back in the 50's and 60's, you would not have had any real argument that USA would top any kind of rating of how well a nation is doing.
Eg, the Economist Democracy Index ranking currently has Sweden in the first place.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index#January.2C_2007_ranking
Denmark is currently ranked as the number one nation for IT:
http://www.weforum.org/en/initiatives/gcp/Global%20Information%20Technology%20Report/index.htm
France has the best health care system:
http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html
Luxemburg and Norway are the two richest countries:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28nominal%29_per_capita
So it is quite difficult to say that USA is the greatest country in the world, at least if you want to base it purely on facts.
Of course, a US citizen should believe so, as should a Norwegian or a Russian believe that their country is the greatest in the world. Nothing wrong with that.
Hedge it's pretty easy for me to reach this conclusion. There are countries who might excel in some parts better than the U.S., but no country has our combination of opportunity, freedom, beauty, political system, legal system, healthcare system, infrastructure, military, etc. It is the one country that offers, on a grand scale, the opportunity for anyone, including immigrants, to be enormously successful.
I don't think it's accurate to say we were better overall in the 50s and 60s than today. There has been a moral decline in our society, but women and minorities were actually worse off in the 50s and 60s than they are today.
I think immigration is the best indication of how great our country really is. If Denmark and Sweden provided better opportunities, then why aren't people flooding their borders like the USA? There is a reason we likely lead the world in immigration.
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Yes there is. It's one you left and the one millions of others flock to every year, both legally and illegally. Our society isn't perfect, but it offers tremendous opportunities. Land of the free, home of the brave mang. That's why the world is dying to move here.
I bet you don't even have a passport and have rarely if ever left the USA. There are millions upon millions of people who do not want to live in the USA. You are delusional and have bought into the propaganda you were indoctrinated into whilst growing up in that trailer park out in white trash land.
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I bet you don't even have a passport and have rarely if ever left the USA. There are millions upon millions of people who do not want to live in the USA. You are delusional and have bought into the propaganda you were indoctrinated into whilst growing up in that trailer park out in white trash land.
How original. You need some new material. ::)
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How original. You need some new material. ::)
Not original but true. How many people are there in the States from some backwater in Kentucky hailing the USA as the greatest country on earth, all the while never having left their own county.
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I think immigration is the best indication of how great our country really is. If Denmark and Sweden provided better opportunities, then why aren't people flooding their borders like the USA? There is a reason we likely lead the world in immigration.
Sweden has the biggest numbers of Iraqi refugees of all nations in the world.
Whereas USA has a couple of thousand Iraqi refugees, Sweden have 70 000+ refugees from Iraq.
Denmark has a lot of them too.
Percentagewise, I'd say both Sweden and Denmark hangs well with USA when it comes with attracting refugees and immigrants.
Unfortunately. :'(
But if that is your indication of how great a country is, then these two countries are right up there.
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Sweden has the biggest numbers of Iraqi refugees of all nations in the world.
Whereas USA has a couple of thousand Iraqi refugees, Sweden have 70 000+ refugees from Iraq.
Denmark has a lot of them too.
Percentagewise, I'd say both Sweden and Denmark hangs well with USA when it comes with attracting refugees and immigrants.
Unfortunately. :'(
But if that is your indication of how great a country is, then these two countries are right up there.
I prefer Iceland and Norway to be honest.
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I prefer Iceland and Norway to be honest.
I can understand it from an objective point of view, as both countries are very beautiful, and both have tremendous wealth, each in different ways.
Norway's being the richest country in the world, and also handling their oil riches very responsible, setting a major part of those earnings away into pension funds for the entire population.
They are all close to us, Norway, Denmark and Finland especially.
But my emotional attachment to my homeland is too big, this is where I was born, and what I love the most.
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I can understand it from an objective point of view, as both countries are very beautiful, and both have tremendous wealth, each in different ways.
Norway's being the richest country in the world, and also handling their oil riches very responsible, setting a major part of those earnings away into pension funds for the entire population.
They are all close to us, Norway, Denmark and Finland especially.
But my emotional attachment to my homeland is too big, this is where I was born, and what I love the most.
For me Iceland even though it is bleak and barren; I studied the language and the literature; I think it's a fantastic language and whilst Swedish, Danish and Norwegian have all changed, Icelandic is basically the same as it always was; Icelanders in 2007 can read sagas written in 1207 without any problems and that is pretty cool; you Swedes can only understand a word here and there. I also studied Danish because I had too but it is such an ugly language. For overall beauty and wealth though, nothing beats Norge.
Of the three countries I would like to settle down in, Iceland and Norway are one of them.
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It compares the social peformance of relatively secular countries, such as Britain, with the US, where the majority believes in a creator rather than the theory of evolution...
...Mr Paul said: “The study shows that England, despite the social ills it has, is actually performing a good deal better than the USA in most indicators, even though it is now a much less religious nation than America.”
This study is flawed.
Western Europe abandoned religion and opted for secularism largely because of the blood spilled in religious wars, just as it abandoned nationalism because of all the blood it spilled in the name of nationalism during World War I. However, those who argue for a secular society ignore the even heavier price in blood Europe has paid for secular fervor. Secular fervor, i.e., communism and Nazism, slaughtered, tortured and enslaved more people in 50 years than all Europe's religious wars did in the course of centuries.
On one hand you have the Catholic Spanish Inquisition, (2,000 death sentences passed on to the Spanish Crown over 349 years). On the other hand you have the pagan Holocaust (12 million murders in five years), and the atheist slaughters of the Great Terror, the Great Leap Forward and the Killing Fields. (4 million murders in 20 years, 30 million murders in 3 years and 2 million murders in four years, respectively.)
According to the Human Development Index, the United States has a more developed society than England. The Human Development Index (HDI) is the measure of life expectancy, literacy, education, and standard of living for countries worldwide. It is a standard means of measuring well-being, especially child welfare. It is used to determine and indicate whether a country is a developed, developing, or underdeveloped country and also to measure the impact of economic policies on quality of life.
2007/2008 Human Development Index rankings
1. Iceland
2. Norway
3. Australia
4. Canada
5. Ireland
6. Sweden
7. Switzerland
8. Japan
9. Netherlands
10. France
11. Finland
12. United States
13. Spain
14. Denmark
15. Austria
16. United Kingdom
http://hdr.undp.org/en/statistics/
If the claim of this thread or of this study had any truth to it, the United States would be at the very bottom of the above list, while France, the most secular of the Western European nations would be at the very top.
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Not original but true. How many people are there in the States from some backwater in Kentucky hailing the USA as the greatest country on earth, all the while never having left their own county.
It is stereotypical nonsense. When you can't discuss the facts, resort to ad hominem. ::) People don't have to leave their own country to know how wonderful their home is.
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Sweden has the biggest numbers of Iraqi refugees of all nations in the world.
Whereas USA has a couple of thousand Iraqi refugees, Sweden have 70 000+ refugees from Iraq.
Denmark has a lot of them too.
Percentagewise, I'd say both Sweden and Denmark hangs well with USA when it comes with attracting refugees and immigrants.
Unfortunately. :'(
But if that is your indication of how great a country is, then these two countries are right up there.
I don't know the reason for Iraqi immigration to Sweden and Denmark, but those numbers are a drop in the bucket when compared to overall immigration to the U.S.:
Legal immigration to the U.S. increased from 2.5 million in the 1950s, 4.5 million in the 1970s, and 7.3 million in the 1980s to about 10 million in the 1990s. Since 2000, legal immigrants to the United States number approximately 1,000,000 per year, of whom about 600,000 are Change of Status immigrants who already are in the U.S. Legal immigrants to the United States now are at their highest level ever at over 35,000,000 legal immigrants.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_the_United_States
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I don't know the reason for Iraqi immigration to Sweden and Denmark, but those numbers are a drop in the bucket when compared to overall immigration to the U.S.:
Legal immigration to the U.S. increased from 2.5 million in the 1950s, 4.5 million in the 1970s, and 7.3 million in the 1980s to about 10 million in the 1990s. Since 2000, legal immigrants to the United States number approximately 1,000,000 per year, of whom about 600,000 are Change of Status immigrants who already are in the U.S. Legal immigrants to the United States now are at their highest level ever at over 35,000,000 legal immigrants.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_the_United_States
Sweden has cerca 1.5 million immigrants, on a population of 9 millions.
USA has 35,000,000 on a population of some 300 million. And then there's approx 10 million illegal (mainly Mexican) immigrants.
As you may or may not realize, the percentages are pretty similar.
You call it a drop in the bucket. Then we are of different opinions obviously, and that is fine.
Something interesting is the low levels of Iraqi refugees accepted into USA.
One would think that USA would be one of the major receivers since it actually headed the operation into Iraq.
BTW, I was wrong. Sweden is only the biggest receiver in Europe. Jordania and Syria are currently housing more than a million Iraqis. And those countries don't have that many inhabitants to begin with.
Or a boatload of money either.
During the Korea and Vietnam war, USA would accept lots of Koreans and Vietnamese.
Why not Iraqis?
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Sweden has cerca 1.5 million immigrants, on a population of 9 millions.
USA has 35,000,000 on a population of some 300 million. And then there's approx 10 million illegal (mainly Mexican) immigrants.
As you may or may not realize, the percentages are pretty similar.
You call it a drop in the bucket. Then we are of different opinions obviously, and that is fine.
Something interesting is the low levels of Iraqi refugees accepted into USA.
One would think that USA would be one of the major receivers since it actually headed the operation into Iraq.
BTW, I was wrong. Sweden is only the biggest receiver in Europe. Jordania and Syria are currently housing more than a million Iraqis. And those countries don't have that many inhabitants to begin with.
Or a boatload of money either.
During the Korea and Vietnam war, USA would accept lots of Koreans and Vietnamese.
Why not Iraqis?
The percentages are comparable, but it's impossible to ignore the sheer number of immigrants. That's part of the reason our country is so great. We offer so many more opportunities than any other country in the world.
Regarding refugees, we apparently limit the number of refugees we will accept in a given year:
Sauerbrey emphasized that there is no cap on the number of Iraqi refugees the United States is willing to resettle. The only limit is set by the presidential determination that identifies the total number of refugees the United States will accept from around the world in any given year. In 2007, that number stands at 70,000.
http://usinfo.state.gov/xarchives/display.html?p=washfile-english&y=2007&m=March&x=20070330165533ndyblehs0.7518885
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It is stereotypical nonsense. When you can't discuss the facts, resort to ad hominem. ::) People don't have to leave their own country to know how wonderful their home is.
I don't need ad hominems. Your claim that you never have to have left your country to say it is the greatest country on the earth.
Let's make an analogy. Milk Chocolate, Semi-Dark Chocolate, Dark Chocolate and 99% Cacao and you have only tried semi-dark and say it's much better than all the other chocolates. Without living exposure to other countries your claims are baseless.
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I don't need ad hominems. Your claim that you never have to have left your country to say it is the greatest country on the earth.
Let's make an analogy. Milk Chocolate, Semi-Dark Chocolate, Dark Chocolate and 99% Cacao and you have only tried semi-dark and say it's much better than all the other chocolates. Without living exposure to other countries your claims are baseless.
Where did I say I never left my country?
Where did I say I lived in a trailer park?
Feel free to quote me.
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Sweden has the biggest numbers of Iraqi refugees of all nations in the world.
Whereas USA has a couple of thousand Iraqi refugees, Sweden have 70 000+ refugees from Iraq.
Denmark has a lot of them too.
Percentagewise, I'd say both Sweden and Denmark hangs well with USA when it comes with attracting refugees and immigrants.
Unfortunately. :'(
But if that is your indication of how great a country is, then these two countries are right up there.
It's sad. The USA invades Iraq, causing death and destruction and who are the people who take care of the victims? The Danish and the Swedish! Shame on you Uncle Sam!
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Where did I say I never left my country?
Where did I say I lived in a trailer park?
Feel free to quote me.
By leaving the country I don't mean a 2 week tour of France or what have you; I mean extended living in different countries.
It's a safe assumption you have never left the USA to live elsewhere.
As for the trailer park it is a hypothesis based on the tone of your posts; you are religious, 'patriotic' and proud to have accidently been born in the USA much like so many other Americans who by dint of geographical accident are proud of that fact. You don't come from the North East (New England, New York) I dout you hail from a huge city and I would place you as being from the Mid-West, the South or some place like Wyoming. Trailer park living mentality can readily be attributed to these regions for their lack of exposure to the outside world, isolationism and insularity.
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By leaving the country I don't mean a 2 week tour of France or what have you; I mean extended living in different countries.
It's a safe assumption you have never left the USA to live elsewhere.
As for the trailer park it is a hypothesis based on the tone of your posts; you are religious, 'patriotic' and proud to have accidently been born in the USA much like so many other Americans who by dint of geographical accident are proud of that fact. You don't come from the North East (New England, New York) I dout you hail from a huge city and I would place you as being from the Mid-West, the South or some place like Wyoming. Trailer park living mentality can readily be attributed to these regions for their lack of exposure to the outside world, isolationism and insularity.
lol. So you admit you just made stuff up? You said the following: "Your claim that you never have to have left your country . . . ." Now you're saying that was an "assumption"? Do you often make ASSumptions like this? :) lol . . . .
As I said, ad hominem nonsense. You couldn't use the facts to carry on a discussion, so you resort to "assumptions."
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lol. So you admit you just made stuff up? You said the following: "Your claim that you never have to have left your country . . . ." Now you're saying that was an "assumption"? Do you often make ASSumptions like this? :) lol . . . .
As I said, ad hominem nonsense. You couldn't use the facts to carry on a discussion, so you resort to "assumptions."
What claim?
Have you lived extensively abroad or not. I am willing to bet money you have not. I have lived in many countries and still would feel absurd making the claim that any one of them is the best?!
What State do you live in?
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What claim?
Have you lived extensively abroad or not. I am willing to bet money you have not. I have lived in many countries and still would feel absurd making the claim that any one of them is the best?!
What State do you live in?
I live in Hawaii.
This is a quote from you: "Your claim that you never have to have left your country to say it is the greatest country on the earth." Where exactly did I make this claim?
Here's what you don't get to do. You don't get to invent facts about me and when I ask you to prove them, change them, and then ask me to help you prove your dumb hypothesis. Who do you think you are, 240? :D
I live in the most beautiful spot on earth. Do I need to travel anywhere else to prove this? No. I believe what I see. Is that an assumption? Of course. Much better than your assumptions.
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I live in Hawaii.
This is a quote from you: "Your claim that you never have to have left your country to say it is the greatest country on the earth." Where exactly did I make this claim?
Here's what you don't get to do. You don't get to invent facts about me and when I ask you to prove them, change them, and then ask me to help you prove your dumb hypothesis. Who do you think you are, 240? :D
I live in the most beautiful spot on earth. Do I need to travel anywhere else to prove this? No. I believe what I see. Is that an assumption? Of course. Much better than your assumptions.
Once again, the chocolate analogy is accurate. I could live in Alaska and claim the same thing and Alaska is arguably more beautiful than Hawaii albeit in a different way.
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I wasn't making an argument for the existence of God.
You are correct that religion is firmly rooted in the USA. The USA gets along just fine. We are the greatest country in the history of the world. People are falling all over themselves to move here. Wouldn't surprise me if we lead the world in immigration. Are people flocking to Scandinavia?
I don't know anything about religion and belief in God in Scandinavia.
Your claim is here.
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Once again, the chocolate analogy is accurate. I could live in Alaska and claim the same thing and Alaska is arguably more beautiful than Hawaii albeit in a different way.
Okay, Trapezkerl, I will let you quietly slink away from the false statement and "assumptions" you made. ::)
In any event, this is all a matter of opinion. Someone in Nevada could believe Las Vegas is more beautiful than Honolulu. Someone can believe Phoenix is more scenic than Maui. I really don't care. I have read enough, seen enough, and listened enough to reach my own conclusions.
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Your claim is here.
lol. And here I was going to just drop it. Don't be a fool. Here is what you said:
"Your claim that you never have to have left your country . . . ."
Where did I make this claim? You can either admit you made it up or just drop it. :)
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This study is flawed.
Western Europe abandoned religion and opted for secularism largely because of the blood spilled in religious wars, just as it abandoned nationalism because of all the blood it spilled in the name of nationalism during World War I. However, those who argue for a secular society ignore the even heavier price in blood Europe has paid for secular fervor. Secular fervor, i.e., communism and Nazism, slaughtered, tortured and enslaved more people in 50 years than all Europe's religious wars did in the course of centuries.
On one hand you have the Catholic Spanish Inquisition, (2,000 death sentences passed on to the Spanish Crown over 349 years). On the other hand you have the pagan Holocaust (12 million murders in five years), and the atheist slaughters of the Great Terror, the Great Leap Forward and the Killing Fields. (4 million murders in 20 years, 30 million murders in 3 years and 2 million murders in four years, respectively.)
According to the Human Development Index, the United States has a more developed society than England. The Human Development Index (HDI) is the measure of life expectancy, literacy, education, and standard of living for countries worldwide. It is a standard means of measuring well-being, especially child welfare. It is used to determine and indicate whether a country is a developed, developing, or underdeveloped country and also to measure the impact of economic policies on quality of life.
2007/2008 Human Development Index rankings
1. Iceland
2. Norway
3. Australia
4. Canada
5. Ireland
6. Sweden
7. Switzerland
8. Japan
9. Netherlands
10. France
11. Finland
12. United States
13. Spain
14. Denmark
15. Austria
16. United Kingdom
http://hdr.undp.org/en/statistics/
If the claim of this thread or of this study had any truth to it, the United States would be at the very bottom of the above list, while France, the most secular of the Western European nations would be at the very top.
I made no claim when I posted the story and the link to the study and even the author of the study said he was not making any cause and effect claims. Also most if not all of the other things the you mention, i.e the Holocaust, the mass murders by Stalin, etc... were mostly about eliminating perceived enemies of the state, dissidents, and etc...
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I made no claim when I posted the story and the link to the study and even the author of the study said he was not making any cause and effect claims. Also most if not all of the other things the you mention, i.e the Holocaust, the mass murders by Stalin, etc... were mostly about eliminating perceived enemies of the state, dissidents, and etc...
This is the old trick; atheism killed all these people, they like to claim. ::)
A) Dogma killed all those people, not the absence of belief in something or being too skeptical of unfounded claims.
B) If people in the 16th and 17th centuries had had access to 20th century technology, I guarantee those numbers would be up there.
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I disagree.
I don't see much religion where I live, and there is less than 300 murders every year in the whole of Sweden, that number has been consistent since the 70's.
What has been shown to have importance however, is to have a civic society, that we socialize in organisations.
Robert Putnam showed this with a study of the difference in democracy levels in northern and southern Italy, where in Northern Italy, for centuries people had been organised in choirs, football clubs, church clubs, and various forms of social activities.
Whereas in southern Italy, they had not, and the level of democracy (voting numbers et al) where much lower.
There is also a book, Bowling Alone, which deals with how the foundation for democracy in USA is eroding, where in the past Americans were spending time together, eg bowling in clubs, but nowadays spend more and more time on their own, in front of the TV.
Very interesting book.
I believe Putnam has a point, and that it is the lack of socializing that could lead to a downfall of a society.
Not whether or not a society is religious.
Eg, look at Iran, a very religious society. And far from a democracy.
Another example, related to Christianity: Look at Spain in the 60's and the 70's. Christian. And a home for fascism. And France, England, Germany and many other countries in the 19th century. None of them were democracies.
But they were all Christian nations, and very religious.
So there is no correlation between a high level of democracy and a high level of religiousity.
I would rather say that fanatism is one of the factors that effectively prevents democracy.
But organised socializing will definitely help democracy. Check out Putnam's work.
my whole point here is we as a society, not as Iceland or where ever, are not advanced on the whole to live in a civilized way without the threat of hell.
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my whole point here is we as a society, not as Iceland or where ever, are not advanced on the whole to live in a civilized way without the threat of hell.
Sucks for you guys. Guess most Americans are like children in that respect. ::)
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my whole point here is we as a society, not as Iceland or where ever, are not advanced on the whole to live in a civilized way without the threat of hell.
are you serious?
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Sucks for you guys. Guess most Americans are like children in that respect. ::)
That includes. Europe, Asia, S. America and Africa.
Societies would crumble with out religion.
I don't need it, you don't need it i guess, actually you might ::), but 99% of the world's population does.
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are you serious?
I'm dead serious, if it was ever proved that god did not exists there would be mass hyteria, riots, social infrastructure would colapse over night.
You smug athiests sometimes live in as much of a dream world as your garden variety fundies.
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That includes. Europe, Asia, S. America and Africa.
Societies would crumble with out religion.
I don't need it, you don't need it i guess, actually you might ::), but 99% of the world's population does.
so you're saying me and 99% of the current population of the world needs "religion"
but then you don't?
ok, I'll play along
what is your definition of "religion" again?
all I can guess at this point is that it's something that the 1% made up to control the other 99%
you're in the 1% who doesn't need it so I'm probably wrong
please help me understand
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so you're saying me and 99% of the current population of the world needs "religion"
but then you don't?
ok, I'll play along
what is your definition of "religion" again?
all I can guess at this point is that it's something that the 1% made up to control the other 99%
you're in the 1% who doesn't need it so I'm probably wrong
please help me understand
Scroll up and read a bit. Maybe not 1% maybe 10% who knows? But my point is that: belief in a higher power (belief in god) combined with doctrine i.e. the belief of punishment in the afterlife is what holds much of society together. If it was ever proved beyond a shadow of a doubt God does not exist and we are nothing more than animals who will never be held accountable for our actions in our life, we would see society collapse.
The idea that it's not wrong or you won't have to pay for it unless you get caught would be a reality. Just look at what happened in NO during Katrina? What prevented everyone from shooting each other indiscriminately?
We have a very animalistic barbaric side to us as a species and i think it's religion that holds most of it together. Now maybe not for you and i. I for one, have core morals that exists regardless of whether or not there is a god. But i have seen first hand a pastor, go completely immoral when he believed God had abandoned him.
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I'm dead serious, if it was ever proved that god did not exists there would be mass hyteria, riots, social infrastructure would colapse over night.
You smug athiests sometimes live in as much of a dream world as your garden variety fundies.
The utility of the god contruct and religion is not evidence of their veracity and you should well know that.
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I'm dead serious, if it was ever proved that god did not exists there would be mass hyteria, riots, social infrastructure would colapse over night.
You smug athiests sometimes live in as much of a dream world as your garden variety fundies.
Ozmo,
let's talk about dream world
I just got back from Christmas with my family in Texas and I just found out that a guy I used to know when I was a kid died from injuries he sustained in a helicopter crash. He was burned over 50% of his body and he lived for almost a year and died this month. He was 42 and had a wife and two young kids. I'd like to make up some story to make myself feel better about this....maybe that some benevolent god has some higher plan and if I could convince myself of that I might feel better.
the problem is I can't
What do you suggest?
seriously
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Scroll up and read a bit. Maybe not 1% maybe 10% who knows? But my point is that: belief in a higher power (belief in god) combined with doctrine i.e. the belief of punishment in the afterlife is what holds much of society together. If it was ever proved beyond a shadow of a doubt God does not exist and we are nothing more than animals who will never be held accountable for our actions in our life, we would see society collapse.
The idea that it's not wrong or you won't have to pay for it unless you get caught would be a reality. Just look at what happened in NO during Katrina? What prevented everyone from shooting each other indiscriminately?
We have a very animalistic barbaric side to us as a species and i think it's religion that holds most of it together. Now maybe not for you and i. I for one, have core morals that exists regardless of whether or not there is a god. But i have seen first hand a pastor, go completely immoral when he believed God had abandoned him.
sorry, maybe I misunderstood what you were trying to say
so you're saying we need to construct this idea in order to control ourselves?
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That includes. Europe, Asia, S. America and Africa.
Societies would crumble with out religion.
I don't need it, you don't need it i guess, actually you might ::), but 99% of the world's population does.
Europe? Most of Europe is highly secular and doesn't believe in religious nonsense and yet has so much less crime than the vaunted states.
I don't need it; I am perfectly content as a primate living in a purposeless universe.
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Ozmo,
let's talk about dream world
I just got back from Christmas with my family in Texas and I just found out that a guy I used to know when I was a kid died from injuries he sustained in a helicopter crash. He was burned over 50% of his body and he lived for almost a year and died this month. He was 42 and had a wife and two young kids. I'd like to make up some story to make myself feel better about this....maybe that some benevolent god has some higher plan and if I could convince myself of that I might feel better.
the problem is I can't
What do you suggest?
seriously
Neither can i.
How can anyone feel better about that?
You should know, i don't believe in doctrine, i do not believe in organized religion.
I fully accept my belief in God is based on faith and nothing more.
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Europe? Most of Europe is highly secular and doesn't believe in religious nonsense and yet has so much less crime than the vaunted states.
I don't need it; I am perfectly content as a primate living in a purposeless universe.
Is most of Europe atheist?
What percentage is it?
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Is most of Europe atheist?
What percentage is it?
Who knows? But the fact remains that church attendance is almost non-existent in many countries.
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sorry, maybe I misunderstood what you were trying to say
so you're saying we need to construct this idea in order to control ourselves?
as a society we still do. That's what i'm saying. Maybe some day we won't but not now.
I mean, look, just look at this board and the politics board. There are some pretty stupid people with some pretty stupid ideas of right and wrong aren't there? Just think of what it would be like if God really didn't exists for them?
Greed.......greed would justify murder, theft, suffering......
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Who knows? But the fact remains that church attendance is almost non-existent in many countries.
This isn't about church attendance. It's about belief in god and the consequences for your actions in this life.
The vast majority of people who don't go to church who are not atheists believe in God, obviously, but also believe in consequences after death for their actions in life.
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as a society we still do. That's what i'm saying. Maybe some day we won't but not now.
I mean, look, just look at this board and the politics board. There are some pretty stupid people with some pretty stupid ideas of right and wrong aren't there? Just think of what it would be like if God really didn't exists for them?
Greed.......greed would justify murder, theft, suffering......
honestly I don't think we need religion anymore, at least not in the sense that we think about it in the West
I don't think we need to make up stories about a God that will punish us
we need to move beyond this
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honestly I don't think we need religion anymore, at least not in the sense that we think about it in the West
I don't think we need to make up stories about a God that will punish us
we need to move beyond this
No doubt. I agree. I would love religion to be totally private. I would love for people to do things becuase they are right and not becuase of the threat of hell.
however.....
Tell that to your average person who's presented with a moral dilemma....
I'll bet you that they are mostly guided by morals based on the religious doctrine of going to hell if you do bad things.
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No doubt. I agree. I would love religion to be totally private. I would love for people to do things becuase they are right and not becuase of the threat of hell.
however.....
Tell that to your average person who's presented with a moral dilemma....
I'll bet you that they are mostly guided by morals based on the religious doctrine of going to hell if you do bad things.
so we're back to the 1% of you who don't need it and the 99% of those who do
I think we need something better
I mean
as long as were making stuff up
right?
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When one looks at the United States, even though Religion is deeply intertwined in our culture so is hypocrisy. People came here to avoid religious persecution, yet applied their own set of rules to the native peoples. It was stated that this country is for the free, yet they had slaves. Certain men were considered 3/5th of a man, but yet his woman was "all woman" in the bed room. And lets not start on Manifest Destiny...And many of this was done all under the guise of Christianity. It is not religion, but men who try to control religion.
"The primary commitment of politicians is not religion, but the use of religion for political purposes. What really breeds violence is political differences...authentic religion is the search for the deeply real and is the greatest humanizing force we have"
----Hudson Smith
Well said! :)
The more dogmatic a society, the more twisted & perverse it's members become.
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With the exception of the gender inequality, how does this apply to Mormon society? Look at how much wealth they've amassed in less than 200 years.
Where are they located? Oh yeah, ...they're at the heart of Network Marketing Ground Zero. nuff said. 8)
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No doubt. I agree. I would love religion to be totally private. I would love for people to do things becuase they are right and not becuase of the threat of hell.
however.....
Tell that to your average person who's presented with a moral dilemma....
I'll bet you that they are mostly guided by morals based on the religious doctrine of going to hell if you do bad things.
I can't speak for anyone else, but that doesn't describe my beliefs at all. I don't have a solid moral compass because I'm afraid to go to hell. In fact, I'm not afraid of hell at all. I believe what I believe and do what I do out love. I get a great deal of satisfaction from the way I live my life and enjoy the many promises I've found in God's word. I sleep like a baby. I look forward to each day. It really isn't about fear at all for me.
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No doubt. I agree. I would love religion to be totally private. I would love for people to do things becuase they are right and not becuase of the threat of hell.
however.....
Tell that to your average person who's presented with a moral dilemma....
I'll bet you that they are mostly guided by morals based on the religious doctrine of going to hell if you do bad things.
My family and I, and the Christians I'm surrounded by have absolutely no fear of hell. How could we have any fear of hell when the Christian faith is precisely that Jesus has saved us from hell and that salvation in Jesus is perpetual? We serve God and we serve people out of love for God, out of obedience to God and out of love for people. We serve God and we serve others following the example that Jesus gave us. We look for opportunities to help others and finding those opportunities and being able to help is rewarding and satisfying. It pleases God and it pleases those we serve. That's all. As a consequence, our service to God and to people helps society in the end.
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That includes. Europe, Asia, S. America and Africa.
Societies would crumble with out religion.
I don't need it, you don't need it i guess, actually you might ::), but 99% of the world's population does.
Look at the recent murder of Benazir Bhutto.
By a religious zealot.
Did religion stop that person from killing her?
Did religion stop Gandhi from getting murdered by a fanatic?
No offence, but I think religion, as well as political dogmas, have been the excuse for not only murders, but oppression as well.
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I made no claim when I posted the story and the link to the study and even the author of the study said he was not making any cause and effect claims.
The very title of this thread, "Societies worse off when they have God on their side", is a bold claim, whether yours or not. That's the claim I am talking about, and the study is flawed as I showed.
Also most if not all of the other things the you mention, i.e the Holocaust, the mass murders by Stalin, etc... were mostly about eliminating perceived enemies of the state, dissidents, and etc...
It doesn't matter. The point is that secular people, by law it seems, always bring up the Crusades and the Catholic Spanish Inquisition to criticise Christians when these secular people know very well that those conflicts were political and more about power, wealth and property than they were about religion. Yet, they fail to acknowledge that a few secular, modern people shed far more blood in much less time than the many religious people of the past. Very convenient.
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This is the old trick; atheism killed all these people, they like to claim. ::)
No, the old trick is secular people always bringing up the Crusades and the Catholic Spanish inquisition to criticises all Christians, or all religious people for that matter, when only a few modern, secular people killed many more in much less time.
A) Dogma killed all those people, not the absence of belief in something or being too skeptical of unfounded claims.
Not religious dogma for sure. Those responsible did have an absence of belief in God.
B) If people in the 16th and 17th centuries had had access to 20th century technology, I guarantee those numbers would be up there.
Right. When was the last Crusade? When was the last Inquisition? So modern Christians are more civilized than modern, secular people? Gotcha! ;)
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Look at the recent murder of Benazir Bhutto.
By a religious zealot.
Did religion stop that person from killing her?
Did religion stop Gandhi from getting murdered by a fanatic?
No offence, but I think religion, as well as political dogmas, have been the excuse for not only murders, but oppression as well.
i agree and at the same time it is part of the moral fabric that holds society together
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My family and I, and the Christians I'm surrounded by have absolutely no fear of hell. How could we have any fear of hell when the Christian faith is precisely that Jesus has saved us from hell and that salvation in Jesus is perpetual? We serve God and we serve people out of love for God, out of obedience to God and out of love for people. We serve God and we serve others following the example that Jesus gave us. We look for opportunities to help others and finding those opportunities and being able to help is rewarding and satisfying. It pleases God and it pleases those we serve. That's all. As a consequence, our service to God and to people helps society in the end.
Why do you do these things? Why follow orders? Why accept Jesus?
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Why do you do these things? Why follow orders? Why accept Jesus?
Not for fear of hell for sure. I have no fear of hell. If you think that's what Christianity is truly about, then your are wrong, no offence.
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Not for fear of hell for sure. I have no fear of hell. If you think that's what Christianity is truly about, then your are wrong, no offence.
I didn't expect you to admit it. But i think that is a core reason for many Christians, whether they consciously admit or not, is that they do not want to burn in hell, therefore because they know if they can't as born sinners ever be perfect for God, they accept Jesus.
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The very title of this thread, "Societies worse off when they have God on their side", is a bold claim, whether yours or not. That's the claim I am talking about, and the study is flawed as I showed.
I said in the beginning of this thread (as did the author of the study) that it was by no means definitive or even proved cause and effect. It was, more than anything, a initial observation or jumping off point. You didn't "prove" any flaws, you just included the HDI which it's own creator called a "vulgar measure", because of its limitations, it nonetheless focuses attention on wider aspects of development than the per capita income measure it supplanted"
The HDI measures the average achievements in a country in three basic dimensions of human development:
1.A long and healthy life, as measured by life expectancy at birth.
2. Knowledge and education, as measured by the adult literacy rate (with two-thirds weighting) and the combined primary, secondary, and tertiary gross enrollment ratio (with one-third weighting).
3. A decent standard of living, as measured by the log of gross domestic product (GDP) per capita at purchasing power parity (PPP) in USD.
None of these things were the subject of the study referenced in the article which looked primarily at: murder rates, abortion, sexual promiscuity and suicide - all things that one might surmise would be less is societies that claim to be more religious - again the author was NOT claiming proof of cause and effect
The HDI appears to be focused on economic development while the first study looks at what could be viewed as moral or ethical development - the very thing that religion is supposed to improve
It doesn't matter. The point is that secular people, by law it seems, always bring up the Crusades and the Catholic Spanish Inquisition to criticise Christians when these secular people know very well that those conflicts were political and more about power, wealth and property than they were about religion. Yet, they fail to acknowledge that a few secular, modern people shed far more blood in much less time than the many religious people of the past. Very convenient.
You're the one who mentioned the crusades and inquisition as two things that most would think were of a religious nature yet, according to you - were more about power, wealth and property ..... yet the more modern atrocities were somehow NOT about power, wealth and property but more about the failure of secularism???
How can you have it both ways??
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Not for fear of hell for sure. I have no fear of hell. If you think that's what Christianity is truly about, then your are wrong, no offence.
do you think that non christians (jews, muslims, hindu's and the garden variety athiest) should fear hell?
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No, the old trick is secular people always bringing up the Crusades and the Catholic Spanish inquisition to criticises all Christians, or all religious people for that matter, when only a few modern, secular people killed many more in much less time.
Not religious dogma for sure. Those responsible did have an absence of belief in God.
Right. When was the last Crusade? When was the last Inquisition? So modern Christians are more civilized than modern, secular people? Gotcha! ;)
Off topic, but I'll be watching History of the World Part I (for about the 10th time) this morning. "The Inquisition . . . what a show . . ." :D
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I didn't expect you to admit it. But i think that is a core reason for many Christians, whether they consciously admit or not, is that they do not want to burn in hell, therefore because they know if they can't as born sinners ever be perfect for God, they accept Jesus.
Admit it? LOL ;D
OzmO,
if you, or even if a Christian for that matter, thinks for one minute that Christianity truly is about fear of hell, then you are both wrong. I have absolutely no fear of hell. That is ridiculous. You've said it yourself, that faith in Jesus Christ is a "free out of jail ticket" or something like that. If to a Christian faith in Jesus Christ is truly a "free out of jail ticket", then why would a Christian fear "jail" at all if that Christian holds the "ticket"? My faith in Jesus Christ saves me from hell for ever. Therefore I can't possibly fear hell, even if I wanted to.
You have proved time after time that you, unfortunately, don't have a clue what Christianity is truly about, no offence. It's okay, I've met a few Christians who don't have a clue either. But the Christians on this board do know. As for non-Christians on this board, the only one that has proved to have a clue what Christianity is truly about is Hedgehog.
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If to a Christian faith in Jesus Christ is truly a "free out of jail ticket", then why would a Christian fear "jail" at all if that Christian hold the "ticket"? My faith in Jesus Christ saves me from hell for ever. Therefore I can't possibly fear hell, even if I wanted to.
cart before the horse??
first Christians have to be convinced/indoctrinated that they are destined for eternal hell AND that the ONLY way to avoid this is if they accept JC as their saviour
once "saved" they have no reason to fear hell ....they've got their ticket into heaven
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Admit it? LOL ;D
OzmO,
if you, or even if a Christian for that matter, thinks for one minute that Christianity truly is about fear of hell, then you are both wrong. I have absolutely no fear of hell. That is ridiculous. You've said it yourself, that faith in Jesus Christ is a "free out of jail ticket" or something like that. If to a Christian faith in Jesus Christ is truly a "free out of jail ticket", then why would a Christian fear "jail" at all if that Christian holds the "ticket"? My faith in Jesus Christ saves me from hell for ever. Therefore I can't possibly fear hell, even if I wanted to.
You have proved time after time that you, unfortunately, don't have a clue what Christianity is truly about, no offence. It's okay, I've met a few Christians who don't have a clue either. But the Christians on this board do know. As for non-Christians on this board, the only one that has proved to have a clue what Christianity is truly about is Hedgehog.
I think we are having a language issue again.
why would a Christian fear "jail" at all if that Christian holds the "ticket"?
That's why he chooses to hold the ticket in the first place. for fear of hell.
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cart before the horse??
first Christians have to be convinced/indoctrinated that they are destined for eternal hell AND thatthe ONLY way to avoid this is if they accept JC as their saviour
If that's how some Christian that you know became a Christian, so be it. That is not how I and many others became Christians. Some Christians don't even know about hell until after they've become Christians and start reading the Bible and going to church.
once "saved" they have no reason to fear hell ....they've got their ticket into heaven
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the claim was that Christians abstain from evil and do good out of fear of hell. Then you and I agree this is not true.
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I think we are having a language issue again.
why would a Christian fear "jail" at all if that Christian holds the "ticket"?
That's why he chooses to hold the ticket in the first place. for fear of hell.
Why would we have language issues?
See my last post above.
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Why would we have language issues?
See my last post above.
You are dancing around again.
Back to this:
That's why Christians choose to accept Jesus in the first place...to avoid hell.
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If that's how some Christian that you know became a Christian, so be it. That is not how I and many others became Christians. Some Christians don't even know about hell after they've become Christians and start reading the Bible and going to church.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the claim was that Christians abstain from evil and do good out of fear of hell. Then you and I agree this is not true.
loco - that is exactly how Christianity is sold to the masses - it's FEAR not LOVE
Christians preach that one should be concerned, AFRAID for their mortal soul and the ONLY way to avoid inevitable and eternal suffering is to get "saved".
Even the word "saved" suggests that FEAR is the primary motivation.
Catholics are the same way - you're tainted with original sin at the moment of birth
Even further - once the've got their ticket to heaven it seems like some feel free to do whatever kinds of awful shit that they want because they're "saved" and none of their transgressions will prevent them from partying with Jesus in the afterlife - maybe this is why the more religious a society the more social ills it seems to have
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You are dancing around again.
That's why Christians choose to accept Jesus in the first place...to avoid hell.
If that's how some Christian that you know became a Christian, so be it. That is not how I and many others became Christians. Some Christians don't even know about hell until after they've become Christians and start reading the Bible and going to church.
You're cluless, OzmO. Now you are telling me why and how I became a Christian. ::)
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loco - should non Christians fear hell?
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loco - that is exactly how Christianity is sold to the masses - it's FEAR not LOVE
Christians preach that one should be concerned, AFRAID for their mortal soul and the ONLY way to avoid inevitable and eternal suffering is to get "saved".
Even the word "saved" suggests that FEAR is the primary motivation.
Catholics are the same way - you're tainted with original sin at the moment of birth
Even further - once the've got their ticket to heaven it seems like some feel free to do whatever kinds of awful shit that they want because they're "saved" and none of their transgressions will prevent them from partying with Jesus in the afterlife - maybe this is why the more religious a society the more social ills it seems to have
Yes, Jesus himself spoke of hell, and many preachers today preach on hell, but in way of a warning and not to scare people into believing. Yes, the Roman Catholic church and many protestant, mainly charismatic churches in my experience have abused hell to scare people into believing. But that is not what Jesus taught. Our mission as Christians is not to convert anybody. Our mission is to share the gospel and leave the converting to the Holy Spirit. As a great preacher put it, anything I can talk you into, somebody else can talk you out of. But when the Holy Spirit gives you something, it is yours for ever.
And as I said before, I did not become a Christian out of fear of hell, and neither did many Christians I know. As I said before, many people grow up being told that there is no hell, then they become Christians and learn about hell after reading the Bible and attending chrurch.
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loco - should non Christians fear hell?
Yes.
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Yes.
if they don't then what would you suggest to help them?
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You're cluless, OzmO. Now you are telling me why and how I became a Christian. ::)
What I'm saying is that it is the root of why people become Christians and even stay Christians.... You can deny it all you want. You can ridicule me for thinking it. You can talk about how people come to Christianity without knowing about hell. They come because they are spiritually empty and stay because they fear hell.
They buy into the idea that they are sinful imperfect creatures and are destine to hell if they do not accept Christ. what part of that is not true loco?
You can provide other reasons, but in the end that's what it is. The Bible highlights it well, FEAR God.
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if they don't then what would you suggest to help them?
If they don't fear hell? What would I suggest? Nothing. As I said, my job is to share the good news about Jesus, warn people about hell, but the converting is up to the Holy Spirit. As I said, anything I can talk you into, somebody else can talk you out of. But anything the Holy Spirit gives you, it's yours for ever.
I knew about hell from childhood and for some reason I was never afraid. I just did not want to become a Christian because I wanted to live the way I wanted, without rules and without answering to anybody. I was not a bad kid, but neither was I what you might call a good citizen.
My becoming a Christian was gradual, after seeing other good Christians, my parents included, live a life of service to others, selflessness, goodness, peace, joy even in the mist of life problems and suffering, etc. I wanted that peace and that joy. One day I just said a prayer to Jesus and told him that I was willing to stop being selfish and start living as he wanted me to live. Right after that, my life, my personality, my character changed. I wasn't expecting a change like that, but it happened. Those who knew me before and after would tell you that I am a very different, much better person. There is much more I could tell, but I don't have time right now.
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let's try a different approach.
You agree that non-christians SHOULD fear hell
Why?
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Ozmo,
let's talk about dream world
I just got back from Christmas with my family in Texas and I just found out that a guy I used to know when I was a kid died from injuries he sustained in a helicopter crash. He was burned over 50% of his body and he lived for almost a year and died this month. He was 42 and had a wife and two young kids. I'd like to make up some story to make myself feel better about this....maybe that some benevolent god has some higher plan and if I could convince myself of that I might feel better.
the problem is I can't
What do you suggest?
seriously
Straw Man, I'm very sorry about your friend. :(
I have no idea if this will make you feel better at all because from what I can tell you don't believe in God (forgive me if that's an incorrect conclusion) but one possibility your friend suffered so long before dying is that he was given the opportunity to accept Christ as Savior during that time and maybe finally did so. Of course I believe your friend would then now be in paradise w/Jesus! His family also would have been able to express how much they loved him.
My dad was diagnosed w/cancer when I was 8 and died when I was 10. Toward the end it was so horrible I couldn't even look at him. He was 36 years old. Why did this happen this way? Maybe he needed that time to make a decision. Maybe we needed him to have that time with us. I don't know but I believe God is in control and knows everything.
A family friend recently died of cancer. She was yellow at the end and wasting away to nothing. She was strong in her Christian faith and glorified God during her illness. She was a blessing to those who saw how she dealt w/it and reacted to her situation.
I hope something will make you feel a bit better. Time will make the pain less intense. Sorry Straw Man.
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Re: becoming a Christian because of fear of hell:
I believe some people become Christians because they fear hell or even the wrath portion of the tribulation if they are those that follow prophecy.
But I also believe that some people are just sorry for all the crap they've done and do and have learned about forgiveness provided through the love and grace of Jesus Christ. They see their need for a savior and accept Christ as such.
Some read about Jesus and want to spend their lives here and in eternity w/Him.
In addition, I do agree that some people would go hog wild and act the fool if God were to be proven to be unreal, but I feel that (hopefully) most people would subscribe to the "I won't do X to them if I wouldn't want X done to me." But I feel that if God wasn't real, no one would feel that way. :-\
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Re: becoming a Christian because of fear of hell:
I believe some people become Christians because they fear hell or even the wrath portion of the tribulation if they are those that follow prophecy.
But I also believe that some people are just sorry for all the crap they've done and do and have learned about forgiveness provided through the love and grace of Jesus Christ. They see their need for a savior and accept Christ as such.
Some read about Jesus and want to spend their lives here and in eternity w/Him.
In addition, I do agree that some people would go hog wild and act the fool if God were to be proven to be unreal, but I feel that (hopefully) most people would subscribe to the "I won't do X to them if I wouldn't want X done to me." But I feel that if God wasn't real, no one would feel that way. :-\
Once again Stella, always the voice of reason. :)
I fear a day that something happens that "god" as most of us know him as, is falsely proven wrong.
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Straw Man, I'm very sorry about your friend. :(
I have no idea if this will make you feel better at all because from what I can tell you don't believe in God (forgive me if that's an incorrect conclusion) but one possibility your friend suffered so long before dying is that he was given the opportunity to accept Christ as Savior during that time and maybe finally did so. Of course I believe your friend would then now be in paradise w/Jesus! His family also would have been able to express how much they loved him.
My dad was diagnosed w/cancer when I was 8 and died when I was 10. Toward the end it was so horrible I couldn't even look at him. He was 36 years old. Why did this happen this way? Maybe he needed that time to make a decision. Maybe we needed him to have that time with us. I don't know but I believe God is in control and knows everything.
A family friend recently died of cancer. She was yellow at the end and wasting away to nothing. She was strong in her Christian faith and glorified God during her illness. She was a blessing to those who saw how she dealt w/it and reacted to her situation.
I hope something will make you feel a bit better. Time will make the pain less intense. Sorry Straw Man.
Stella, thanks for the kind words and I don't mean to be harsh but telling myself that God kept him alive for a year (in incredible pain) just to give him time to accept Jesus is just the kind to story that does nothing for me. What about the passenger who died at the crash? Why didn't he get any time. What if my friend didn't accept Jesus? Should I assume he's now burning again in hell? If there is a God and this happened for some reason then it's beyond our ability to understand. Most likely it was just a horrible accident and that's just the way life is sometimes. As I type this there are probably a few thousand children on the planet who will die today from malnutrition, dysentary, cancer, etc....but I don't feel bad for them because I don't know them and have no attachment but their deaths are no doubt just as harsh and meaningless. I do actually believe that there is some greater reality into which our "reality" is wholly contained but I don't in any way buy into our man-made ideas such as that God needs us to accept it or we're condemned to eternal suffering. Where ever my friend is now I know he's out of pain and the only people who are in pain are the ones who are left behind (not me - but his family, close friends etc..)
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If there is a God and this happened for some reason then it's beyond our ability to understand.
The above is really the only answer I have for your questions in your last post. One day we may know why things happen the way they do.
Once again, I'm sorry that this happened.
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The above is really the only answer I have for your questions in your last post. One day we may know why things happen the way they do.
Once again, I'm sorry that this happened.
Thanks Stella
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I sleep like a baby.
Proof positive that "Ignorance is bliss" ain't it? ;)
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Once again Stella, always the voice of reason. :)
I fear a day that something happens that "god" as most of us know him as, is falsely proven wrong.
Stella is the voice of reason?
She is a fundamentalist nutcase who believes that everything in the Bible in literally true, from Adam and Eve to the alleged Jesus of Nazareth's 'resurrection', and you call her a voice of reason?
What on earth are you sniffing Ozmo?
:o
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Stella is the voice of reason?
She is a fundamentalist nutcase who believes that everything in the Bible in literally true, from Adam and Eve to the alleged Jesus of Nazareth's 'resurrection', and you call her a voice of reason?
What on earth are you sniffing Ozmo?
:o
I thought Ozmo's choice of words was odd too
but I do appreciate her (Stella's) obvious sincerity
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Stella, thanks for the kind words and I don't mean to be harsh but telling myself that God kept him alive for a year (in incredible pain) just to give him time to accept Jesus is just the kind to story that does nothing for me. What about the passenger who died at the crash? Why didn't he get any time. What if my friend didn't accept Jesus? Should I assume he's now burning again in hell? If there is a God and this happened for some reason then it's beyond our ability to understand. Most likely it was just a horrible accident and that's just the way life is sometimes. As I type this there are probably a few thousand children on the planet who will die today from malnutrition, dysentary, cancer, etc....but I don't feel bad for them because I don't know them and have no attachment but their deaths are no doubt just as harsh and meaningless. I do actually believe that there is some greater reality into which our "reality" is wholly contained but I don't in any way buy into our man-made ideas such as that God needs us to accept it or we're condemned to eternal suffering. Where ever my friend is now I know he's out of pain and the only people who are in pain are the ones who are left behind (not me - but his family, close friends etc..)
A friend of mine died of liver disease some years ago. We live in a universe, which is pitiless and indifferent. Things happen for no particular reason. Your friend has ceased to exist as had mine and we will all in a few short years. All the more reason to make the best of our time on this earth, rather than pretending to know things we don't. Occam's Razor is the best explanation for such things. Which makes more sense, a universe and world such as ours, where suffering, singular and massive is a daily occurence, affecting good and bad people alike with a loving creator who cares about each and every one of us or the same universe without such a deity; the latter explanation makes much more sense. People adhere to their religion in such times for psychological reasons, not evidence and rationality. And remember, that something is useful, does not make it true.
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Proof positive that "Ignorance is bliss" ain't it? ;)
If anyone knows ignorance, it's the twisted sister.
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but one possibility your friend suffered so long before dying is that he was given the opportunity to accept Christ as Savior during that time and maybe finally did so.
What about people who die instantly, eg Benazir Bhutto, who was shot?
We are all equal before God, so why would someone be given a long time for accepting Christ as his Savior, while others don't?
Or baby infants, who die at birth, why aren't they given the chance to accept Christ as their Savior?
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What about people who die instantly, eg Benazir Bhutto, who was shot?
We are all equal before God, so why would someone be given a long time for accepting Christ as his Savior, while others don't?
I thought she didn't die instantly?
Some would say that people have their whole lives to accept Christ as Savior. Do some people get extra time while in a situation that they know they will die soon? I believe it's possible. I also believe that someone on their way to smashing into a tree has enough time to accept Christ as Savior.
Or baby infants, who die at birth, why aren't they given the chance to accept Christ as their Savior?
I believe babies and young children go to heaven when they die, even though they may not have made a conscious choice to accept Christ.
The following scripture is addressing when King David's infant son died:
2 Samuel 22,23
He answered, "While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept. I thought, 'Who knows? The LORD may be gracious to me and let the child live.' 23 But now that he is dead, why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me."
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Regarding babies and young children, I think the following applies:
"Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin." James 4:17
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I also believe that someone on their way to smashing into a tree has enough time to accept Christ as Savior.
stella, do you really think that a non-christian (hindu, muslim, jew, athiest) who is facing a split second life or death situation is going to be thinking about accepting JC as their saviour - seriously??
I believe babies and young children go to heaven when they die, even though they may not have made a conscious choice to accept Christ.
If this were true then the best thing that could happen would be to die as a baby or young child. Even the longest life is just an instant when compared to an eternity of bliss or agony. If we all died as babies then we wouldn't have time to learn to reason and maybe reject superstition. In fact I think Catholic priests/missionaries used to follow this very logic when they first came to America. They would baptize Native American babies and then smash them against trees guaranteeing that they would go straight to heaven.
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Straw Man, I'm very sorry about your childhood friend! That's very sad!
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Thanks Loco - this was guy that I knew as a kid and not a close friend but it's very sad for his wife, kids and those that knew him well. I just found out about it when I was back at my mothers house for Christmas.
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Stella is the voice of reason?
She is a fundamentalist nutcase who believes that everything in the Bible in literally true, from Adam and Eve to the alleged Jesus of Nazareth's 'resurrection', and you call her a voice of reason?
What on earth are you sniffing Ozmo?
:o
Let go of your bias for a second a look at how she answered the question.