Societies worse off when they have God on their side

[Deicide]

I agree.  It is the central to our fabric.  Babies are christened and dedicated in church.  Boys have their Bar Mitzvah in the temple.  Many young kids spend time in choirs, Sunday schools, etc.  Teenagers are baptized in church.  People get married in church.  Funerals are held in church.  Kids are educated in parochial schools and adults are educated in parochial colleges and universities.  There are literally hundreds of religious-based hospitals and clinics.  There are tons of religious publishing houses that produce millions of books and magazines.  It is likely that every military base has a chapel.  People flock to church in times of crisis.  Remember what happened to church attendance after 911?  It is really impossible to separate the role of religion and faith and belief in God from American society.     

None of the above mentioned is an argument for the existence of the Christian deity, nor whether religion as a whole is beneficial to society. All you have established is that religion is firmly rooted in the USA and we all know that. Great. Scandinavians have none of this and get along just fine.

[Dos Equis]

None of the above mentioned is an argument for the existence of the Christian deity, nor whether religion as a whole is beneficial to society. All you have established is that religion is firmly rooted in the USA and we all know that. Great. Scandinavians have none of this and get along just fine.

I wasn't making an argument for the existence of God. 

You are correct that religion is firmly rooted in the USA.  The USA gets along just fine.  We are the greatest country in the history of the world.  People are falling all over themselves to move here.  Wouldn't surprise me if we lead the world in immigration.  Are people flocking to Scandinavia?   

I don't know anything about religion and belief in God in Scandinavia. 

[Straw Man]

I didn't claim anything.  I referenced a poll. 

The "study" is a croc.  I wonder how many criminals they interviewed to gain empirical information about why the person committed their crime?  This is really absurd.  Might as well establish a link between those who kill and those who eat Jell-O. 

You say the study is a "croc" but you don't have any criticism of the methodology and from the questions you asked about how many criminals they interviewed it's obvious that you didn't even look at the study (link in the first post on this thread) and just responded with  an emotional gut reaction.

Go back and look at the study and see the data sources for the rates of religious belief and practice and then tell me what your problem is with the data.  Before you do that though also look at the sources for the data on aspects of societal health and dysfunction.   

Maybe then we can have an intelligent discussion.

BTW - if you read the study you might have seen this paragraph:

This study is a first, brief look at an important subject that has been almost entirely neglected by social scientists. The primary intent is to present basic correlations of the elemental data. Some conclusions that can be gleaned from the plots are outlined. This is not an attempt to present a definitive study that establishes cause versus effect between religiosity, secularism and societal health. It is hoped that these original correlations and results will spark future research and debate on the issue.

As you've pointed out now at least 3 times (and guess what - the same # is mentioned in the study) ~ 90% of Americans profess a belief in God, Divine Creator,etc.. and yet in spite of the fact that the vast majority of our population believes in God we have a substantially higher rate of Homicide, STDs, etc... i.e this belief does not seem to translate into a benefit for society as defined by this study and in fact there seems there might actually be a negative correlation.

[Deicide]

I wasn't making an argument for the existence of God. 

You are correct that religion is firmly rooted in the USA.  The USA gets along just fine.  We are the greatest country in the history of the world.  People are falling all over themselves to move here.  Wouldn't surprise me if we lead the world in immigration.  Are people flocking to Scandinavia?   

I don't know anything about religion and belief in God in Scandinavia. 

Hold on there Wayne Gro, there is no such thing as the greatest country in the world. I grew up in the USA and have left, choosing to live elsewhere because of its deficiencies. The USA has the highest rate of overall crime of any industrialised nation and you call that just getting along fine?

[Hedgehog]

I think belief in god (higher power) and some sort of punishment in the afterlife is what holds much of society together.

We as a society are still barbaric in many ways and have not matured to the point of knowing right from wrong with out guidance or being motivated to do right and not wrong without the threat of punishment.

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws"  -Plato.

What ever these studies are, I think you'd have to take them with a grain of salt as we don't know how a society  would act and behave if GOD was ever proved to not exist and that we are just animals who actions will never be held accountable after we die.

I disagree.

I don't see much religion where I live, and there is less than 300 murders every year in the whole of Sweden, that number has been consistent since the 70's.

What has been shown to have importance however, is to have a civic society, that we socialize in organisations.

Robert Putnam showed this with a study of the difference in democracy levels in northern and southern Italy, where in Northern Italy, for centuries people had been organised in choirs, football clubs, church clubs, and various forms of social activities.

Whereas in southern Italy, they had not, and the level of democracy (voting numbers et al) where much lower.

There is also a book, Bowling Alone, which deals with how the foundation for democracy in USA is eroding, where in the past Americans were spending time together, eg bowling in clubs, but nowadays spend more and more time on their own, in front of the TV.

Very interesting book.

I believe Putnam has a point, and that it is the lack of socializing that could lead to a downfall of a society.

Not whether or not a society is religious.

Eg, look at Iran, a very religious society. And far from a democracy.

Another example, related to Christianity: Look at Spain in the 60's and the 70's. Christian. And a home for fascism. And France, England, Germany and many other countries in the 19th century. None of them were democracies.

But they were all Christian nations, and very religious.

So there is no correlation between a high level of democracy and a high level of religiousity.

I would rather say that fanatism is one of the factors that effectively prevents democracy.

But organised socializing will definitely help democracy. Check out Putnam's work.

[Deicide]

I disagree.

I don't see much religion where I live, and there is less than 300 murders every year in the whole of Sweden, that number has been consistent since the 70's.

What has been shown to have importance however, is to have a civic society, that we socialize in organisations.

Robert Putnam showed this with a study of the difference in democracy levels in northern and southern Italy, where in Northern Italy, for centuries people had been organised in choirs, football clubs, church clubs, and various forms of social activities.

Whereas in southern Italy, they had not, and the level of democracy (voting numbers et al) where much lower.

There is also a book, Bowling Alone, which deals with how the foundation for democracy in USA is eroding, where in the past Americans were spending time together, eg bowling in clubs, but nowadays spend more and more time on their own, in front of the TV.

Very interesting book.

I believe Putnam has a point, and that it is the lack of socializing that could lead to a downfall of a society.

Not whether or not a society is religious.

Eg, look at Iran, a very religious society. And far from a democracy.

Another example, related to Christianity: Look at Spain in the 60's and the 70's. Christian. And a home for fascism. And France, England, Germany and many other countries in the 19th century. None of them were democracies.

But they were all Christian nations, and very religious.

So there is no correlation between a high level of democracy and a high level of religiousity.

I would rather say that fanatism is one of the factors that effectively prevents democracy.

But organised socializing will definitely help democracy. Check out Putnam's work.

Funny mixing up American and British orthography!

[Hedgehog]

Funny mixing up American and British orthography!

My only excuse is that I've been scholed in both.

[Deicide]

My only excuse is that I've been scholed in both.

Schooled.

You should write Swedish more often on the boards Hedge; I would appreciate it.

[Dos Equis]

Hold on there Wayne Gro, there is no such thing as the greatest country in the world. I grew up in the USA and have left, choosing to live elsewhere because of its deficiencies. The USA has the highest rate of overall crime of any industrialised nation and you call that just getting along fine?

Yes there is.  It's one you left and the one millions of others flock to every year, both legally and illegally.  Our society isn't perfect, but it offers tremendous opportunities.  Land of the free, home of the brave mang.  That's why the world is dying to move here. 

[Hedgehog]

Yes there is.  It's one you left and the one millions of others flock to every year, both legally and illegally.  Our society isn't perfect, but it offers tremendous opportunities.  Land of the free, home of the brave mang.  That's why the world is dying to move here. 

You could of course argue that one country is the greatest in the world.

And several different organizations make such ratings every year, there are IT ratings, democracy index, health index, overall welfare index, well being index, et al.



My guess is that back in the 50's and 60's, you would not have had any real argument that USA would top any kind of rating of how well a nation is doing.

Eg, the Economist Democracy Index ranking currently has Sweden in the first place.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index#January.2C_2007_ranking

Denmark is currently ranked as the number one nation for IT:
http://www.weforum.org/en/initiatives/gcp/Global%20Information%20Technology%20Report/index.htm

France has the best health care system:
http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html

Luxemburg and Norway are the two richest countries:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28nominal%29_per_capita


So it is quite difficult to say that USA is the greatest country in the world, at least if you want to base it purely on facts.

Of course, a US citizen should believe so, as should a Norwegian or a Russian believe that their country is the greatest in the world. Nothing wrong with that.

[Dos Equis]

You could of course argue that one country is the greatest in the world.

And several different organizations make such ratings every year, there are IT ratings, democracy index, health index, overall welfare index, well being index, et al.



My guess is that back in the 50's and 60's, you would not have had any real argument that USA would top any kind of rating of how well a nation is doing.

Eg, the Economist Democracy Index ranking currently has Sweden in the first place.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index#January.2C_2007_ranking

Denmark is currently ranked as the number one nation for IT:
http://www.weforum.org/en/initiatives/gcp/Global%20Information%20Technology%20Report/index.htm

France has the best health care system:
http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html

Luxemburg and Norway are the two richest countries:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28nominal%29_per_capita


So it is quite difficult to say that USA is the greatest country in the world, at least if you want to base it purely on facts.

Of course, a US citizen should believe so, as should a Norwegian or a Russian believe that their country is the greatest in the world. Nothing wrong with that.

Hedge it's pretty easy for me to reach this conclusion.  There are countries who might excel in some parts better than the U.S., but no country has our combination of opportunity, freedom, beauty, political system, legal system, healthcare system, infrastructure, military, etc.  It is the one country that offers, on a grand scale, the opportunity for anyone, including immigrants, to be enormously successful.   

I don't think it's accurate to say we were better overall in the 50s and 60s than today.  There has been a moral decline in our society, but women and minorities were actually worse off in the 50s and 60s than they are today. 

I think immigration is the best indication of how great our country really is.  If Denmark and Sweden provided better opportunities, then why aren't people flooding their borders like the USA?   There is a reason we likely lead the world in immigration. 
     

[Deicide]

Yes there is.  It's one you left and the one millions of others flock to every year, both legally and illegally.  Our society isn't perfect, but it offers tremendous opportunities.  Land of the free, home of the brave mang.  That's why the world is dying to move here. 

I bet you don't even have a passport and have rarely if ever left the USA. There are millions upon millions of people who do not want to live in the USA. You are delusional and have bought into the propaganda you were indoctrinated into whilst growing up in that trailer park out in white trash land.

[Dos Equis]

I bet you don't even have a passport and have rarely if ever left the USA. There are millions upon millions of people who do not want to live in the USA. You are delusional and have bought into the propaganda you were indoctrinated into whilst growing up in that trailer park out in white trash land.

How original.  You need some new material.   

[Deicide]

How original.  You need some new material.   

Not original but true. How many people are there in the States from some backwater in Kentucky hailing the USA as the greatest country on earth, all the while never having left their own county.

[Hedgehog]

I think immigration is the best indication of how great our country really is.  If Denmark and Sweden provided better opportunities, then why aren't people flooding their borders like the USA?   There is a reason we likely lead the world in immigration. 
     

Sweden has the biggest numbers of Iraqi refugees of all nations in the world.

Whereas USA has a couple of thousand Iraqi refugees, Sweden have 70 000+ refugees from Iraq.

Denmark has a lot of them too.

Percentagewise, I'd say both Sweden and Denmark hangs well with USA when it comes with attracting refugees and immigrants.

Unfortunately.

But if that is your indication of how great a country is, then these two countries are right up there.

[Deicide]

Sweden has the biggest numbers of Iraqi refugees of all nations in the world.

Whereas USA has a couple of thousand Iraqi refugees, Sweden have 70 000+ refugees from Iraq.

Denmark has a lot of them too.

Percentagewise, I'd say both Sweden and Denmark hangs well with USA when it comes with attracting refugees and immigrants.

Unfortunately.

But if that is your indication of how great a country is, then these two countries are right up there.

I prefer Iceland and Norway to be honest.

[Hedgehog]

I prefer Iceland and Norway to be honest.

I can understand it from an objective point of view, as both countries are very beautiful, and both have tremendous wealth, each in different ways.

Norway's being the richest country in the world, and also handling their oil riches very responsible, setting a major part of those earnings away into pension funds for the entire population.

They are all close to us, Norway, Denmark and Finland especially.

But my emotional attachment to my homeland is too big, this is where I was born, and what I love the most.

[Deicide]

I can understand it from an objective point of view, as both countries are very beautiful, and both have tremendous wealth, each in different ways.

Norway's being the richest country in the world, and also handling their oil riches very responsible, setting a major part of those earnings away into pension funds for the entire population.

They are all close to us, Norway, Denmark and Finland especially.

But my emotional attachment to my homeland is too big, this is where I was born, and what I love the most.

For me Iceland even though it is bleak and barren; I studied the language and the literature; I think it's a fantastic language and whilst Swedish, Danish and Norwegian have all changed, Icelandic is basically the same as it always was; Icelanders in 2007 can read sagas written in 1207 without any problems and that is pretty cool; you Swedes can only understand a word here and there. I also studied Danish because I had too but it is such an ugly language. For overall beauty and wealth though, nothing beats Norge.

Of the three countries I would like to settle down in, Iceland and Norway are one of them.

[loco]

It compares the social peformance of relatively secular countries, such as Britain, with the US, where the majority believes in a creator rather than the theory of evolution...

...Mr Paul said: “The study shows that England, despite the social ills it has, is actually performing a good deal better than the USA in most indicators, even though it is now a much less religious nation than America.”

This study is flawed.

Western Europe abandoned religion and opted for secularism largely because of the blood spilled in religious wars, just as it abandoned nationalism because of all the blood it spilled in the name of nationalism during World War I.  However, those who argue for a secular society ignore the even heavier price in blood Europe has paid for secular fervor. Secular fervor, i.e., communism and Nazism, slaughtered, tortured and enslaved more people in 50 years than all Europe's religious wars did in the course of centuries.

On one hand you have the Catholic Spanish Inquisition, (2,000 death sentences passed on to the Spanish Crown over 349 years).  On the other hand you have the pagan Holocaust (12 million murders in five years), and the atheist slaughters of the Great Terror, the Great Leap Forward and the Killing Fields. (4 million murders in 20 years, 30 million murders in 3 years and 2 million murders in four years, respectively.)

According to the Human Development Index, the United States has a more developed society than England.  The Human Development Index (HDI) is the measure of life expectancy, literacy, education, and standard of living for countries worldwide. It is a standard means of measuring well-being, especially child welfare. It is used to determine and indicate whether a country is a developed, developing, or underdeveloped country and also to measure the impact of economic policies on quality of life.

2007/2008 Human Development Index rankings

1. Iceland
2. Norway
3. Australia
4. Canada
5. Ireland
6. Sweden
7. Switzerland
8. Japan
9. Netherlands
10. France
11. Finland
12. United States
13. Spain
14. Denmark
15. Austria
16. United Kingdom

http://hdr.undp.org/en/statistics/

If the claim of this thread or of this study had any truth to it, the United States would be at the very bottom of the above list, while France, the most secular of the Western European nations would be at the very top.

[Dos Equis]

Not original but true. How many people are there in the States from some backwater in Kentucky hailing the USA as the greatest country on earth, all the while never having left their own county.

It is stereotypical nonsense.  When you can't discuss the facts, resort to ad hominem.    People don't have to leave their own country to know how wonderful their home is. 

[Dos Equis]

Sweden has the biggest numbers of Iraqi refugees of all nations in the world.

Whereas USA has a couple of thousand Iraqi refugees, Sweden have 70 000+ refugees from Iraq.

Denmark has a lot of them too.

Percentagewise, I'd say both Sweden and Denmark hangs well with USA when it comes with attracting refugees and immigrants.

Unfortunately.

But if that is your indication of how great a country is, then these two countries are right up there.

I don't know the reason for Iraqi immigration to Sweden and Denmark, but those numbers are a drop in the bucket when compared to overall immigration to the U.S.:

Legal immigration to the U.S. increased from 2.5 million in the 1950s, 4.5 million in the 1970s, and 7.3 million in the 1980s to about 10 million in the 1990s. Since 2000, legal immigrants to the United States number approximately 1,000,000 per year, of whom about 600,000 are Change of Status immigrants who already are in the U.S. Legal immigrants to the United States now are at their highest level ever at over 35,000,000 legal immigrants.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_the_United_States

[Hedgehog]

I don't know the reason for Iraqi immigration to Sweden and Denmark, but those numbers are a drop in the bucket when compared to overall immigration to the U.S.:

Legal immigration to the U.S. increased from 2.5 million in the 1950s, 4.5 million in the 1970s, and 7.3 million in the 1980s to about 10 million in the 1990s. Since 2000, legal immigrants to the United States number approximately 1,000,000 per year, of whom about 600,000 are Change of Status immigrants who already are in the U.S. Legal immigrants to the United States now are at their highest level ever at over 35,000,000 legal immigrants.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_the_United_States

Sweden has cerca 1.5 million immigrants, on a population of 9 millions.

USA has 35,000,000 on a population of some 300 million. And then there's approx 10 million illegal (mainly Mexican) immigrants.

As you may or may not realize, the percentages are pretty similar.

You call it a drop in the bucket. Then we are of different opinions obviously, and that is fine.

Something interesting is the low levels of Iraqi refugees accepted into USA.

One would think that USA would be one of the major receivers since it actually headed the operation into Iraq.

BTW, I was wrong. Sweden is only the biggest receiver in Europe. Jordania and Syria are currently housing more than a million Iraqis. And those countries don't have that many inhabitants to begin with.

Or a boatload of money either.

During the Korea and Vietnam war, USA would accept lots of Koreans and Vietnamese.

Why not Iraqis?

[Dos Equis]

Sweden has cerca 1.5 million immigrants, on a population of 9 millions.

USA has 35,000,000 on a population of some 300 million. And then there's approx 10 million illegal (mainly Mexican) immigrants.

As you may or may not realize, the percentages are pretty similar.

You call it a drop in the bucket. Then we are of different opinions obviously, and that is fine.

Something interesting is the low levels of Iraqi refugees accepted into USA.

One would think that USA would be one of the major receivers since it actually headed the operation into Iraq.

BTW, I was wrong. Sweden is only the biggest receiver in Europe. Jordania and Syria are currently housing more than a million Iraqis. And those countries don't have that many inhabitants to begin with.

Or a boatload of money either.

During the Korea and Vietnam war, USA would accept lots of Koreans and Vietnamese.

Why not Iraqis?

The percentages are comparable, but it's impossible to ignore the sheer number of immigrants.  That's part of the reason our country is so great.  We offer so many more opportunities than any other country in the world.   

Regarding refugees, we apparently limit the number of refugees we will accept in a given year: 

Sauerbrey emphasized that there is no cap on the number of Iraqi refugees the United States is willing to resettle.  The only limit is set by the presidential determination that identifies the total number of refugees the United States will accept from around the world in any given year.  In 2007, that number stands at 70,000.

http://usinfo.state.gov/xarchives/display.html?p=washfile-english&y=2007&m=March&x=20070330165533ndyblehs0.7518885

[Deicide]

It is stereotypical nonsense.  When you can't discuss the facts, resort to ad hominem.    People don't have to leave their own country to know how wonderful their home is. 

I don't need ad hominems. Your claim that you never have to have left your country to say it is the greatest country on the earth.

Let's make an analogy. Milk Chocolate, Semi-Dark Chocolate, Dark Chocolate and 99% Cacao and you have only tried semi-dark and say it's much better than all the other chocolates. Without living exposure to other countries your claims are baseless.

[Dos Equis]

I don't need ad hominems. Your claim that you never have to have left your country to say it is the greatest country on the earth.

Let's make an analogy. Milk Chocolate, Semi-Dark Chocolate, Dark Chocolate and 99% Cacao and you have only tried semi-dark and say it's much better than all the other chocolates. Without living exposure to other countries your claims are baseless.

Where did I say I never left my country? 

Where did I say I lived in a trailer park? 

Feel free to quote me.