Societies worse off when they have God on their side

[Deicide]

Sweden has the biggest numbers of Iraqi refugees of all nations in the world.

Whereas USA has a couple of thousand Iraqi refugees, Sweden have 70 000+ refugees from Iraq.

Denmark has a lot of them too.

Percentagewise, I'd say both Sweden and Denmark hangs well with USA when it comes with attracting refugees and immigrants.

Unfortunately.

But if that is your indication of how great a country is, then these two countries are right up there.

It's sad. The USA invades Iraq, causing death and destruction and who are the people who take care of the victims? The Danish and the Swedish! Shame on you Uncle Sam!

[Deicide]

Where did I say I never left my country? 

Where did I say I lived in a trailer park? 

Feel free to quote me.   

By leaving the country I don't mean a 2 week tour of France or what have you; I mean extended living in different countries.

It's a safe assumption you have never left the USA to live elsewhere.

As for the trailer park it is a hypothesis based on the tone of your posts; you are religious, 'patriotic' and proud to have accidently been born in the USA much like so many other Americans who by dint of geographical accident are proud of that fact. You don't come from the North East (New England, New York) I dout you hail from a huge city and I would place you as being from the Mid-West, the South or some place like Wyoming. Trailer park living mentality can readily be attributed to these regions for their lack of exposure to the outside world, isolationism and insularity.

[Dos Equis]

By leaving the country I don't mean a 2 week tour of France or what have you; I mean extended living in different countries.

It's a safe assumption you have never left the USA to live elsewhere.

As for the trailer park it is a hypothesis based on the tone of your posts; you are religious, 'patriotic' and proud to have accidently been born in the USA much like so many other Americans who by dint of geographical accident are proud of that fact. You don't come from the North East (New England, New York) I dout you hail from a huge city and I would place you as being from the Mid-West, the South or some place like Wyoming. Trailer park living mentality can readily be attributed to these regions for their lack of exposure to the outside world, isolationism and insularity.

lol.  So you admit you just made stuff up?  You said the following:  "Your claim that you never have to have left your country . . . ."  Now you're saying that was an "assumption"?  Do you often make ASSumptions like this?    lol . . . .

As I said, ad hominem nonsense.  You couldn't use the facts to carry on a discussion, so you resort to "assumptions." 

[Deicide]

lol.  So you admit you just made stuff up?  You said the following:  "Your claim that you never have to have left your country . . . ."  Now you're saying that was an "assumption"?  Do you often make ASSumptions like this?    lol . . . .

As I said, ad hominem nonsense.  You couldn't use the facts to carry on a discussion, so you resort to "assumptions." 

What claim?

Have you lived extensively abroad or not. I am willing to bet money you have not. I have lived in many countries and still would feel absurd making the claim that any one of them is the best?!

What State do you live in?

[Dos Equis]

What claim?

Have you lived extensively abroad or not. I am willing to bet money you have not. I have lived in many countries and still would feel absurd making the claim that any one of them is the best?!

What State do you live in?

I live in Hawaii.

This is a quote from you:  "Your claim that you never have to have left your country to say it is the greatest country on the earth."  Where exactly did I make this claim? 

Here's what you don't get to do.  You don't get to invent facts about me and when I ask you to prove them, change them, and then ask me to help you prove your dumb hypothesis.  Who do you think you are, 240?   

I live in the most beautiful spot on earth.  Do I need to travel anywhere else to prove this?  No.  I believe what I see.  Is that an assumption?  Of course.  Much better than your assumptions.   

[Deicide]

I live in Hawaii.

This is a quote from you:  "Your claim that you never have to have left your country to say it is the greatest country on the earth."  Where exactly did I make this claim? 

Here's what you don't get to do.  You don't get to invent facts about me and when I ask you to prove them, change them, and then ask me to help you prove your dumb hypothesis.  Who do you think you are, 240?   

I live in the most beautiful spot on earth.  Do I need to travel anywhere else to prove this?  No.  I believe what I see.  Is that an assumption?  Of course.  Much better than your assumptions.   

Once again, the chocolate analogy is accurate. I could live in Alaska and claim the same thing and Alaska is arguably more beautiful than Hawaii albeit in a different way.

[Deicide]

I wasn't making an argument for the existence of God. 

You are correct that religion is firmly rooted in the USA.  The USA gets along just fine.  We are the greatest country in the history of the world. People are falling all over themselves to move here.  Wouldn't surprise me if we lead the world in immigration.  Are people flocking to Scandinavia?   

I don't know anything about religion and belief in God in Scandinavia. 

Your claim is here.

[Dos Equis]

Once again, the chocolate analogy is accurate. I could live in Alaska and claim the same thing and Alaska is arguably more beautiful than Hawaii albeit in a different way.

Okay, Trapezkerl, I will let you quietly slink away from the false statement and "assumptions" you made.  

In any event, this is all a matter of opinion.  Someone in Nevada could believe Las Vegas is more beautiful than Honolulu.  Someone can believe Phoenix is more scenic than Maui.  I really don't care.  I have read enough, seen enough, and listened enough to reach my own conclusions.    

[Dos Equis]

Your claim is here.

lol.  And here I was going to just drop it.  Don't be a fool.  Here is what you said: 

"Your claim that you never have to have left your country . . . ."

Where did I make this claim?  You can either admit you made it up or just drop it.   

[Straw Man]

This study is flawed.

Western Europe abandoned religion and opted for secularism largely because of the blood spilled in religious wars, just as it abandoned nationalism because of all the blood it spilled in the name of nationalism during World War I.  However, those who argue for a secular society ignore the even heavier price in blood Europe has paid for secular fervor. Secular fervor, i.e., communism and Nazism, slaughtered, tortured and enslaved more people in 50 years than all Europe's religious wars did in the course of centuries.

On one hand you have the Catholic Spanish Inquisition, (2,000 death sentences passed on to the Spanish Crown over 349 years).  On the other hand you have the pagan Holocaust (12 million murders in five years), and the atheist slaughters of the Great Terror, the Great Leap Forward and the Killing Fields. (4 million murders in 20 years, 30 million murders in 3 years and 2 million murders in four years, respectively.)

According to the Human Development Index, the United States has a more developed society than England.  The Human Development Index (HDI) is the measure of life expectancy, literacy, education, and standard of living for countries worldwide. It is a standard means of measuring well-being, especially child welfare. It is used to determine and indicate whether a country is a developed, developing, or underdeveloped country and also to measure the impact of economic policies on quality of life.

2007/2008 Human Development Index rankings

1. Iceland
2. Norway
3. Australia
4. Canada
5. Ireland
6. Sweden
7. Switzerland
8. Japan
9. Netherlands
10. France
11. Finland
12. United States
13. Spain
14. Denmark
15. Austria
16. United Kingdom

http://hdr.undp.org/en/statistics/

If the claim of this thread or of this study had any truth to it, the United States would be at the very bottom of the above list, while France, the most secular of the Western European nations would be at the very top.

I made no claim when I posted the story and the link to the study and even the author of the study said he was not making any cause and effect claims.  Also most if not all of the other things the you mention, i.e the Holocaust, the mass murders by Stalin, etc... were mostly about eliminating perceived enemies of the state, dissidents, and etc... 

[Deicide]

I made no claim when I posted the story and the link to the study and even the author of the study said he was not making any cause and effect claims.  Also most if not all of the other things the you mention, i.e the Holocaust, the mass murders by Stalin, etc... were mostly about eliminating perceived enemies of the state, dissidents, and etc... 

This is the old trick; atheism killed all these people, they like to claim. 

A) Dogma killed all those people, not the absence of belief in something or being too skeptical of unfounded claims.
B) If people in the 16th and 17th centuries had had access to 20th century technology, I guarantee those numbers would be up there.

[OzmO]

I disagree.

I don't see much religion where I live, and there is less than 300 murders every year in the whole of Sweden, that number has been consistent since the 70's.

What has been shown to have importance however, is to have a civic society, that we socialize in organisations.

Robert Putnam showed this with a study of the difference in democracy levels in northern and southern Italy, where in Northern Italy, for centuries people had been organised in choirs, football clubs, church clubs, and various forms of social activities.

Whereas in southern Italy, they had not, and the level of democracy (voting numbers et al) where much lower.

There is also a book, Bowling Alone, which deals with how the foundation for democracy in USA is eroding, where in the past Americans were spending time together, eg bowling in clubs, but nowadays spend more and more time on their own, in front of the TV.

Very interesting book.

I believe Putnam has a point, and that it is the lack of socializing that could lead to a downfall of a society.

Not whether or not a society is religious.

Eg, look at Iran, a very religious society. And far from a democracy.

Another example, related to Christianity: Look at Spain in the 60's and the 70's. Christian. And a home for fascism. And France, England, Germany and many other countries in the 19th century. None of them were democracies.

But they were all Christian nations, and very religious.

So there is no correlation between a high level of democracy and a high level of religiousity.

I would rather say that fanatism is one of the factors that effectively prevents democracy.

But organised socializing will definitely help democracy. Check out Putnam's work.

my whole point here is we as a society, not as Iceland or where ever, are not advanced on the whole to live in a civilized way without the threat of hell.

[Deicide]

my whole point here is we as a society, not as Iceland or where ever, are not advanced on the whole to live in a civilized way without the threat of hell.

Sucks for you guys. Guess most Americans are like children in that respect.

[Straw Man]

my whole point here is we as a society, not as Iceland or where ever, are not advanced on the whole to live in a civilized way without the threat of hell.

are you serious?

[OzmO]

Sucks for you guys. Guess most Americans are like children in that respect.

That includes. Europe, Asia,  S. America and Africa. 

Societies would crumble with out religion.

I don't need it, you don't need it i guess, actually you might  , but 99% of the world's population does.

[OzmO]

are you serious?

I'm dead serious, if it was ever proved that god did not exists there would be mass hyteria, riots, social infrastructure would colapse over night.


You smug athiests sometimes live in as much of a dream world as your garden variety fundies.

[Straw Man]

That includes. Europe, Asia,  S. America and Africa. 

Societies would crumble with out religion.

I don't need it, you don't need it i guess, actually you might  , but 99% of the world's population does.

so you're saying me and 99% of the current population of the world needs "religion"

but then you don't?

ok, I'll play along

what is your definition of "religion" again?

all I can guess at this point is that it's something that the 1% made up to control the other 99%

you're in the 1% who doesn't need it so I'm probably wrong

please help me understand

[OzmO]

so you're saying me and 99% of the current population of the world needs "religion"

but then you don't?

ok, I'll play along

what is your definition of "religion" again?

all I can guess at this point is that it's something that the 1% made up to control the other 99%

you're in the 1% who doesn't need it so I'm probably wrong

please help me understand

Scroll up and read a bit.  Maybe not 1% maybe 10% who knows?  But my point is that:  belief in a higher power (belief in god) combined with doctrine i.e. the belief of punishment in the afterlife is what holds much of society together.  If it was ever proved beyond a shadow of a doubt God does not exist and we are nothing more than animals who will never be held accountable for our actions in our life, we would see society collapse.   

The idea that it's not wrong or you won't have to pay for it unless you get caught would be a reality.  Just look at what happened in NO during Katrina?  What prevented everyone from shooting each other indiscriminately? 

We have a very animalistic barbaric side to us as a species and i think it's religion that holds most of it together.  Now maybe not for you and i.  I for one, have core morals that exists regardless of whether or not there is a god.  But i have seen first hand a pastor, go completely immoral when he believed God had abandoned him.

[Deicide]

I'm dead serious, if it was ever proved that god did not exists there would be mass hyteria, riots, social infrastructure would colapse over night.


You smug athiests sometimes live in as much of a dream world as your garden variety fundies.

The utility of the god contruct and religion is not evidence of their veracity and you should well know that.

[Straw Man]

I'm dead serious, if it was ever proved that god did not exists there would be mass hyteria, riots, social infrastructure would colapse over night.


You smug athiests sometimes live in as much of a dream world as your garden variety fundies.

Ozmo,

let's talk about dream world

I just got back from Christmas with my family in Texas and I just found out that a guy I used to know when I was a kid died from injuries he sustained in a helicopter crash.  He was burned over 50% of his body and he lived for almost a year and died this month.  He was 42 and had a wife and two young kids.   I'd like to make up some story to make myself feel better about this....maybe that some benevolent god has some higher plan and if I could convince myself of that I might feel better.  

the problem is I can't

What do you suggest?

seriously

[Straw Man]

Scroll up and read a bit.  Maybe not 1% maybe 10% who knows?  But my point is that:  belief in a higher power (belief in god) combined with doctrine i.e. the belief of punishment in the afterlife is what holds much of society together.  If it was ever proved beyond a shadow of a doubt God does not exist and we are nothing more than animals who will never be held accountable for our actions in our life, we would see society collapse.   

The idea that it's not wrong or you won't have to pay for it unless you get caught would be a reality.  Just look at what happened in NO during Katrina?  What prevented everyone from shooting each other indiscriminately? 

We have a very animalistic barbaric side to us as a species and i think it's religion that holds most of it together.  Now maybe not for you and i.  I for one, have core morals that exists regardless of whether or not there is a god.  But i have seen first hand a pastor, go completely immoral when he believed God had abandoned him.

sorry, maybe I misunderstood what you  were trying to say

so you're saying we need to construct this idea in order to control ourselves?

[Deicide]

That includes. Europe, Asia,  S. America and Africa. 

Societies would crumble with out religion.

I don't need it, you don't need it i guess, actually you might  , but 99% of the world's population does.

Europe? Most of Europe is highly secular and doesn't believe in religious nonsense and yet has so much less crime than the vaunted states.

I don't need it; I am perfectly content as a primate living in a purposeless universe.

[OzmO]

Ozmo,

let's talk about dream world

I just got back from Christmas with my family in Texas and I just found out that a guy I used to know when I was a kid died from injuries he sustained in a helicopter crash.  He was burned over 50% of his body and he lived for almost a year and died this month.  He was 42 and had a wife and two young kids.   I'd like to make up some story to make myself feel better about this....maybe that some benevolent god has some higher plan and if I could convince myself of that I might feel better. 

the problem is I can't

What do you suggest?

seriously

Neither can i.

How can anyone feel better about that?

You should know, i don't believe in doctrine, i do not believe in organized religion.

I fully accept my belief in God is based on faith and nothing more.

[OzmO]

Europe? Most of Europe is highly secular and doesn't believe in religious nonsense and yet has so much less crime than the vaunted states.

I don't need it; I am perfectly content as a primate living in a purposeless universe.

Is most of Europe atheist?

What percentage is it?

[Deicide]

Is most of Europe atheist?

What percentage is it?

Who knows? But the fact remains that church attendance is almost non-existent in many countries.