Societies worse off when they have God on their side

[Straw Man]

Societies worse off 'when they have God on their side'
By Ruth Gledhill, Religion Correspondent
 
link to article:  http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1798944,00.html

link to study referenced in article: http://moses.creighton.edu/jrs/2005/2005-11.html
 
RELIGIOUS belief can cause damage to a society, contributing towards high murder rates, abortion, sexual promiscuity and suicide, according to research published today.

 According to the study, belief in and worship of God are not only unnecessary for a healthy society but may actually contribute to social problems.

The study counters the view of believers that religion is necessary to provide the moral and ethical foundations of a healthy society.

It compares the social peformance of relatively secular countries, such as Britain, with the US, where the majority believes in a creator rather than the theory of evolution. Many conservative evangelicals in the US consider Darwinism to be a social evil, believing that it inspires atheism and amorality.

Many liberal Christians and believers of other faiths hold that religious belief is socially beneficial, believing that it helps to lower rates of violent crime, murder, suicide, sexual promiscuity and abortion. The benefits of religious belief to a society have been described as its “spiritual capital”. But the study claims that the devotion of many in the US may actually contribute to its ills.

The paper, published in the Journal of Religion and Society, a US academic journal, reports: “Many Americans agree that their churchgoing nation is an exceptional, God-blessed, shining city on the hill that stands as an impressive example for an increasingly sceptical world.

“In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy and abortion in the prosperous democracies.

“The United States is almost always the most dysfunctional of the developing democracies, sometimes spectacularly so.”

Gregory Paul, the author of the study and a social scientist, used data from the International Social Survey Programme, Gallup and other research bodies to reach his conclusions.

He compared social indicators such as murder rates, abortion, suicide and teenage pregnancy.

The study concluded that the US was the world’s only prosperous democracy where murder rates were still high, and that the least devout nations were the least dysfunctional. Mr Paul said that rates of gonorrhoea in adolescents in the US were up to 300 times higher than in less devout democratic countries. The US also suffered from “ uniquely high” adolescent and adult syphilis infection rates, and adolescent abortion rates, the study suggested.

Mr Paul said: “The study shows that England, despite the social ills it has, is actually performing a good deal better than the USA in most indicators, even though it is now a much less religious nation than America.”

He said that the disparity was even greater when the US was compared with other countries, including France, Japan and the Scandinavian countries. These nations had been the most successful in reducing murder rates, early mortality, sexually transmitted diseases and abortion, he added.

Mr Paul delayed releasing the study until now because of Hurricane Katrina. He said that the evidence accumulated by a number of different studies suggested that religion might actually contribute to social ills. “I suspect that Europeans are increasingly repelled by the poor societal performance of the Christian states,” he added.

He said that most Western nations would become more religious only if the theory of evolution could be overturned and the existence of God scientifically proven. Likewise, the theory of evolution would not enjoy majority support in the US unless there was a marked decline in religious belief, Mr Paul said.

“The non-religious, proevolution democracies contradict the dictum that a society cannot enjoy good conditions unless most citizens ardently believe in a moral creator.

“The widely held fear that a Godless citizenry must experience societal disaster is therefore refuted.”
 
 

[_Morrison_]

Now that's interesting.

[Deicide]

Now that's interesting.

I've been saying it for years.

[Tre]

With the exception of the gender inequality, how does this apply to Mormon society?  Look at how much wealth they've amassed in less than 200 years.

[Dos Equis]

This is arguably the most ridiculous study I've ever heard of.    

[Straw Man]

This is arguably the most ridiculous study I've ever heard of.    

Why?

[Dos Equis]

Why?

I understand why you would jump all over something like this, but it's really something I would expect to find on The Onion.  I'm not even sure where to begin.  Here are a few reasons this "study" is absurd:

1.  No, teaching people that murder is a sin does not increase instances of murder.  How ridiculous is that?   

2.  Religion has been deeply ingrained in our society from its inception.  It is one of the primary reasons we are successful.  Pretty much every community in this country has multiple churches, multiple religions, religious schools, religious hospitals, religious colleges and universities, etc.  To say in any way that these contribute to crime is ludicrous. 

3.  Every president in our history and probably every member of Congress has at least professed to "have God on their side." 

4.  Every Congressional session begins with prayer.  There are chaplains on the federal government payroll.  In other words, a professed belief in God has been intertwined with our government pretty much since its inception.   

5.  Federal court sessions begin with "God save this honorable court."  In other words, a professed belief in God has been interwoven in our legal system pretty much since the beginning. 

6.  There are chaplains on the military payroll that minister to the greatest fighting force in the world.  In other words, a professed belief in God has assisted with the creation of the greatest military on the planet.   

7.  There are numerous "religious" communities all around the country.  I'll just talk about one here in Hawaii.  The town of Laiae has a huge Mormon church, a BYU-Hawaii campus, and the Polynesian Cultural Center.  It is one of the nicest and safest communities on the island.  I think that is duplicated in many other cities around the country.  I wonder how the crime rate in Utah compares to the rest of the country?  Same with many of the Bible belt communities? 

[Deicide]

I understand why you would jump all over something like this, but it's really something I would expect to find on The Onion.  I'm not even sure where to begin.  Here are a few reasons this "study" is absurd:

1.  No, teaching people that murder is a sin does not increase instances of murder.  How ridiculous is that?   

2.  Religion has been deeply ingrained in our society from its inception.  It is one of the primary reasons we are successful.  Pretty much every community in this country has multiple churches, multiple religions, religious schools, religious hospitals, religious colleges and universities, etc.  To say in any way that these contribute to crime is ludicrous. 

3.  Every president in our history and probably every member of Congress has at least professed to "have God on their side." 

4.  Every Congressional session begins with prayer.  There are chaplains on the federal government payroll.  In other words, a professed belief in God has been intertwined with our government pretty much since its inception.   

5.  Federal court sessions begin with "God save this honorable court."  In other words, a professed belief in God has been interwoven in our legal system pretty much since the beginning. 

6.  There are chaplains on the military payroll that minister to the greatest fighting force in the world.  In other words, a professed belief in God has assisted with the creation of the greatest military on the planet.   

7.  There are numerous "religious" communities all around the country.  I'll just talk about one here in Hawaii.  The town of Laiae has a huge Mormon church, a BYU-Hawaii campus, and the Polynesian Cultural Center.  It is one of the nicest and safest communities on the island.  I think that is duplicated in many other cities around the country.  I wonder how the crime rate in Utah compares to the rest of the country?  Same with many of the Bible belt communities? 

How do you explain that the 'Red' southern States, highly religious and Christian have much higher occurences of rape, murder, theft, incest, pregnancy, etc. compared to the North East?

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/141282/are_religious_children_committing_more.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States

[Straw Man]

I understand why you would jump all over something like this, but it's really something I would expect to find on The Onion.  I'm not even sure where to begin.  Here are a few reasons this "study" is absurd:

1.  No, teaching people that murder is a sin does not increase instances of murder.  How ridiculous is that?    no one said that teaching that murder is a sin increased the instances of murder - what the study concluded was that societies that poll as being most religious have the higher instances of homicide

2.  Religion has been deeply ingrained in our society from its inception.  It is one of the primary reasons we are successful.  Pretty much every community in this country has multiple churches, multiple religions, religious schools, religious hospitals, religious colleges and universities, etc.  To say in any way that these contribute to crime is ludicrous.  no doubt that religion is deeply ingrained in "our society" (what's your definition of that again?) but your conclusion that it's the primary reason that we're successful is totally unprovable and basically meaningless

3.  Every president in our history and probably every member of Congress has at least professed to "have God on their side."  again - so what? this has nothing to do with the study, the data analyzed, the conclusions, etc...

4.  Every Congressional session begins with prayer.  There are chaplains on the federal government payroll.  In other words, a professed belief in God has been intertwined with our government pretty much since its inception.    see above

5.  Federal court sessions begin with "God save this honorable court."  In other words, a professed belief in God has been interwoven in our legal system pretty much since the beginning.  yes, I get it - you see reference to you local tribal myths everywhere - again what does this specifically have to do with the data, the conclusion etc... ?
6.  There are chaplains on the military payroll that minister to the greatest fighting force in the world.  In other words, a professed belief in God has assisted with the creation of the greatest military on the planet.   you make a statement and then draw a conclusion that you can't prove - also has nothing to do with ...well, you know - see above
7.  There are numerous "religious" communities all around the country.  I'll just talk about one here in Hawaii.  The town of Laiae has a huge Mormon church, a BYU-Hawaii campus, and the Polynesian Cultural Center.  It is one of the nicest and safest communities on the island.  I think that is duplicated in many other cities around the country.  I wonder how the crime rate in Utah compares to the rest of the country?  Same with many of the Bible belt communities?  so you're saying we should all become Mormon's?  Again, if you want to talk about the actual study then let's define "societies"  The guy who did the study was looking at publicly available data about countries not religous sects inside countries. 

[Dos Equis]

How do you explain that the 'Red' southern States, highly religious and Christian have much higher occurences of rape, murder, theft, incest, pregnancy, etc. compared to the North East?

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/141282/are_religious_children_committing_more.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States

That’s really a misleading comment/question.  The most dangerous places in the country are New York City, Los Angeles, D.C., Chicago, Philly, etc.  

Regarding higher crime rates in southern states, there is a direct correlation between income, education, and crime.  I'm sure that higher crime rates on those states are related to those factors and not religion.  

[Deicide]

That’s really a misleading comment/question.  The most dangerous places in the country are New York City, Los Angeles, D.C., Chicago, Philly, etc.  

Regarding higher crime rates in southern states, there is a direct correlation between income, education, and crime.  I'm sure that higher crime rates on those states are related to those factors and not religion. 

Which leads us to the next point; generally speaking, sincerely religious people tend to be less intelligent than their counterparts so it all fits together. All of those cities have huge populations and if you were to scale them, NYC at least would do quite well.

[Dos Equis]

Which leads us to the next point; generally speaking, sincerely religious people tend to be less intelligent than their counterparts so it all fits together. All of those cities have huge populations and if you were to scale them, NYC at least would do quite well.

Oh please.  Proof?  I suggest you take a look at a couple threads I started here several months back that talked about belief in God in this country, which I recall was about 91 percent.  From there you can then try and establish that "sincerely religious people tend to be less intelligent."  And while you're at it, check and see how many parochial schools there are in this country and how many divinity schools there are (hint they're even at Ivy League schools).  I'm about to start my movie night with the kiddies, so you have all night.   

[Straw Man]

Which leads us to the next point; generally speaking, sincerely religious people tend to be less intelligent than their counterparts so it all fits together. All of those cities have huge populations and if you were to scale them, NYC at least would do quite well.

I'm not sure I would say less intelligent but definintely less educated

[Straw Man]

Oh please.  Proof?  I suggest you take a look at a couple threads I started here several months back that talked about belief in God in this country, which I recall was about 91 percent.  From there you can then try and establish that "sincerely religious people tend to be less intelligent."  And while you're at it, check and see how many parochial schools there are in this country and how many divinity schools there are (hint they're even at Ivy League schools).  I'm about to start my movie night with the kiddies, so you have all night.   

I don't know the threads you are talking about so if you can summarize that would be great

again - try to actually show me some proof that specific religious belief resulted in a net gain as compared with no belief or a much lower level of belief at the level of a society

we're obviously limited by the constraints of the data but you can see what I'm talking about  - hopefully

[Straw Man]

Oh please.  Proof?  I suggest you take a look at a couple threads I started here several months back that talked about belief in God in this country, which I recall was about 91 percent. 

Bum,

as you've claimed, 91% of our country supposedly believe in God - and I'm guessing you assume they all believe in your perception of God

yet we have higher rates of homicide, STD's et...

that is what the study is looking at

[gcb]

I don't know if you can conclude just from looking at the United States versus Britain that "religion makes a society worse off". There are many other cultural factors (not including religion) involved. The article doesn't say enough for me to say the "proof" is conclusive one way or the other.

[Straw Man]

I don't know if you can conclude just from looking at the United States versus Britain that "religion makes a society worse off". There are many other cultural factors (not including religion) involved. The article does say enough for me to say the "proof" is conclusive one way or the other.

that's a good point but the study did look at more than Britain and the US.

I do agree that there are many other factors that almost certainly contribute to a society/country being "better off" and like any other study it's definitely not perfect or definitive in and of itself

Every country is unique and, for example, the US has many social/historical issues that other countries simply don't have.   It's impossible to make an apples to apples comparison

[Parker]

When one looks at the United States, even though Religion is deeply intertwined in our culture so is hypocrisy. People came here to avoid religious persecution, yet applied their own set of rules to the native peoples. It was stated that this country is for the free, yet they had slaves.  Certain men were considered 3/5th of a man, but yet his woman was "all woman" in the bed room. And lets not start on Manifest Destiny...And many of this was done all under the guise of Christianity. It is not religion, but men who try to control religion.

"The primary commitment of politicians is not religion, but the use of religion for political purposes. What really breeds violence is political differences...authentic religion is the search for the deeply real and is the greatest humanizing force we have"
----Hudson Smith

[Dos Equis]

I don't know the threads you are talking about so if you can summarize that would be great

again - try to actually show me some proof that specific religious belief resulted in a net gain as compared with no belief or a much lower level of belief at the level of a society

we're obviously limited by the constraints of the data but you can see what I'm talking about  - hopefully

http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=155031.0

And

"The 90% of adults who believe in God include 93% of women, 96% of African-Americans and 93% of Republicans but only 86% of men, 85% of those with postgraduate degrees, and 87% of political independents." 

http://www.harrisinteractive.com/harris_poll/index.asp?PID=359

[Dos Equis]

Bum,

as you've claimed, 91% of our country supposedly believe in God - and I'm guessing you assume they all believe in your perception of God

yet we have higher rates of homicide, STD's et...

that is what the study is looking at

I didn't claim anything.  I referenced a poll. 

The "study" is a croc.  I wonder how many criminals they interviewed to gain empirical information about why the person committed their crime?  This is really absurd.  Might as well establish a link between those who kill and those who eat Jell-O. 

[OzmO]

I think belief in god (higher power) and some sort of punishment in the afterlife is what holds much of society together.

We as a society are still barbaric in many ways and have not matured to the point of knowing right from wrong with out guidance or being motivated to do right and not wrong without the threat of punishment.

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws"  -Plato.

What ever these studies are, I think you'd have to take them with a grain of salt as we don't know how a society  would act and behave if GOD was ever proved to not exist and that we are just animals who actions will never be held accountable after we die.

[Deicide]

I think belief in god (higher power) and some sort of punishment in the afterlife is what holds much of society together.

We as a society are still barbaric in many ways and have not matured to the point of knowing right from wrong with out guidance or being motivated to do right and not wrong without the threat of punishment.

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws"  -Plato.

What ever these studies are, I think you'd have to take them with a grain of salt as we don't know how a society  would act and behave if GOD was ever proved to not exist and that we are just animals who actions will never be held accountable after we die.

Look at the Scandinvian countries who are as atheistic as they come and never even think about divine punishments or what have you. They have the lowest crime rates on earth. So this notion that we need a divine bully to keepus in check in utter nonsense.

[OzmO]

Look at the Scandinvian countries who are as atheistic as they come and never even think about divine punishments or what have you. They have the lowest crime rates on earth. So this notion that we need a divine bully to keepus in check in utter nonsense.

Not at all.

What happens in Iceland wouldn't happen in New Orleans, New York city, or in the middle east.

I think you are not getting my point.

Ice land may be with it's low population, more civilized society and isolation able to do that, but the rest of the world?  No way.

As a whole we are not there yet. 

[Deicide]

Not at all.

What happens in Iceland wouldn't happen in New Orleans, New York city, or in the middle east.

I think you are not getting my point.

Ice land may be with it's low population, more civilized society and isolation able to do that, but the rest of the world?  No way.

As a whole we are not there yet. 

Continental Scandinavia is not as isolated from the rest of the world but you are right; in the USA there is too much religious white trash to ever get there.

[Dos Equis]

I think belief in god (higher power) and some sort of punishment in the afterlife is what holds much of society together.

We as a society are still barbaric in many ways and have not matured to the point of knowing right from wrong with out guidance or being motivated to do right and not wrong without the threat of punishment.

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws"  -Plato.

What ever these studies are, I think you'd have to take them with a grain of salt as we don't know how a society  would act and behave if GOD was ever proved to not exist and that we are just animals who actions will never be held accountable after we die.

I agree.  It is the central to our fabric.  Babies are christened and dedicated in church.  Boys have their Bar Mitzvah in the temple.  Many young kids spend time in choirs, Sunday schools, etc.  Teenagers are baptized in church.  People get married in church.  Funerals are held in church.  Kids are educated in parochial schools and adults are educated in parochial colleges and universities.  There are literally hundreds of religious-based hospitals and clinics.  There are tons of religious publishing houses that produce millions of books and magazines.  It is likely that every military base has a chapel.  People flock to church in times of crisis.  Remember what happened to church attendance after 911?  It is really impossible to separate the role of religion and faith and belief in God from American society.