Societies worse off when they have God on their side

[Straw Man]

If that's how some Christian that you know became a Christian, so be it.  That is not how I and many others became Christians.  Some Christians don't even know about hell after they've become Christians and start reading the Bible and going to church.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the claim was that Christians abstain from evil and do good out of fear of hell.  Then you and I agree this is not true.

loco - that is exactly how Christianity is sold to the masses - it's FEAR not LOVE

Christians preach that one should be concerned, AFRAID for their mortal soul and the ONLY way to avoid inevitable and eternal suffering is to get "saved".   

Even the word "saved" suggests that FEAR is the primary motivation. 

Catholics are the same way - you're tainted with original sin at the moment of birth

Even further - once the've got their ticket to heaven it seems like some feel free to do whatever kinds of awful shit that they want because they're "saved" and none of their transgressions will prevent them from partying with Jesus in the afterlife  - maybe this is why the more religious a society the more social ills it seems to have

[loco]

You are dancing around again.

That's why Christians choose to accept Jesus in the first place...to avoid hell.

If that's how some Christian that you know became a Christian, so be it.  That is not how I and many others became Christians.  Some Christians don't even know about hell until after they've become Christians and start reading the Bible and going to church.

You're cluless, OzmO.  Now you are telling me why and how I became a Christian.   

[Straw Man]

loco - should non Christians fear hell?

[loco]

loco - that is exactly how Christianity is sold to the masses - it's FEAR not LOVE

Christians preach that one should be concerned, AFRAID for their mortal soul and the ONLY way to avoid inevitable and eternal suffering is to get "saved".   

Even the word "saved" suggests that FEAR is the primary motivation. 

Catholics are the same way - you're tainted with original sin at the moment of birth

Even further - once the've got their ticket to heaven it seems like some feel free to do whatever kinds of awful shit that they want because they're "saved" and none of their transgressions will prevent them from partying with Jesus in the afterlife  - maybe this is why the more religious a society the more social ills it seems to have

Yes, Jesus himself spoke of hell, and many preachers today preach on hell, but in way of a warning and not to scare people into believing.  Yes, the Roman Catholic church and many protestant, mainly charismatic churches in my experience have abused hell to scare people into believing.  But that is not what Jesus taught.  Our mission as Christians is not to convert anybody.  Our mission is to share the gospel and leave the converting to the Holy Spirit.  As a great preacher put it, anything I can talk you into, somebody else can talk you out of.  But when the Holy Spirit gives you something, it is yours for ever.

And as I said before, I did not become a Christian out of fear of hell, and neither did many Christians I know.  As I said before, many people grow up being told that there is no hell, then they become Christians and learn about hell after reading the Bible and attending chrurch.

[loco]

loco - should non Christians fear hell?

Yes.

[Straw Man]

Yes.

if they don't then what would you suggest to help them?

[OzmO]

You're cluless, OzmO.  Now you are telling me why and how I became a Christian.   

What I'm saying is that it is the root of why  people become Christians and even stay Christians....    You can deny it all you want. You can ridicule me for thinking it.  You can talk about how people come to Christianity without knowing about hell.   They come because they are spiritually empty and stay because they fear hell. 

They buy into the idea that they are sinful imperfect creatures and are destine to hell if they do not accept Christ. what part of that is not true loco?
 
You can provide other reasons, but in the end that's what it is.   The Bible highlights it well, FEAR God.

[loco]

if they don't then what would you suggest to help them?

If they don't fear hell?  What would I suggest?  Nothing.  As I said, my job is to share the good news about Jesus, warn people about hell, but the converting is up to the Holy Spirit.  As I said, anything I can talk you into, somebody else can talk you out of.  But anything the Holy Spirit gives you, it's yours for ever.

I knew about hell from childhood and for some reason I was never afraid.  I just did not want to become a Christian because I wanted to live the way I wanted, without rules and without answering to anybody.  I was not a bad kid, but neither was I what you might call a good citizen.

My becoming a Christian was gradual, after seeing other good Christians, my parents included, live a life of service to others, selflessness, goodness, peace, joy even in the mist of life problems and suffering, etc.  I wanted that peace and that joy.  One day I just said a prayer to Jesus and told him that I was willing to stop being selfish and start living as he wanted me to live.  Right after that, my life, my personality, my character changed.  I wasn't expecting a change like that, but it happened.  Those who knew me before and after would tell you that I am a very different, much better person.  There is much more I could tell, but I don't have time right now.

[Straw Man]

let's try a different approach.

You agree that non-christians SHOULD fear hell

Why?

[Butterbean]

Ozmo,

let's talk about dream world

I just got back from Christmas with my family in Texas and I just found out that a guy I used to know when I was a kid died from injuries he sustained in a helicopter crash.  He was burned over 50% of his body and he lived for almost a year and died this month.  He was 42 and had a wife and two young kids.   I'd like to make up some story to make myself feel better about this....maybe that some benevolent god has some higher plan and if I could convince myself of that I might feel better.  

the problem is I can't

What do you suggest?

seriously

Straw Man, I'm very sorry about your friend.

I have no idea if this will make you feel better at all because from what I can tell you don't believe in God (forgive me if that's an incorrect conclusion) but one possibility your friend suffered so long before dying is that he was given the opportunity to accept Christ as Savior during that time and maybe finally did so.  Of course I believe your friend would then now be in paradise w/Jesus!  His family also would have been able to express how much they loved him.

My dad was diagnosed w/cancer when I was 8 and died when I was 10.  Toward the end it was so horrible I couldn't even look at him.  He was 36 years old.  Why did this happen this way?   Maybe he needed that time to make a decision.  Maybe we needed him to have that time with us.  I don't know but I believe God is in control and knows everything.

A family friend recently died of cancer.  She was yellow at the end and wasting away to nothing.  She was strong in her Christian faith and glorified God during her illness.  She was a blessing to those who saw how she dealt w/it and reacted to her situation. 

I hope something will make you feel a bit better.   Time will make the pain less intense.  Sorry Straw Man.

[Butterbean]

Re: becoming a Christian because of fear of hell:

I believe some people become Christians because they fear hell or even the wrath portion of the tribulation if they are those that follow prophecy. 

But I also believe that some people are just sorry for all the crap they've done and do and have learned about forgiveness provided through the love and grace of Jesus Christ.  They see their need for a savior and accept Christ as such. 

Some read about Jesus and want to spend their lives here and in eternity w/Him. 


In addition, I do agree that some people would go hog wild and act the fool if God were to be proven to be unreal, but I feel that (hopefully) most people would subscribe to the "I won't do X to them if I wouldn't want X done to me."  But I feel that if God wasn't real, no one would feel that way.

[OzmO]

Re: becoming a Christian because of fear of hell:

I believe some people become Christians because they fear hell or even the wrath portion of the tribulation if they are those that follow prophecy. 

But I also believe that some people are just sorry for all the crap they've done and do and have learned about forgiveness provided through the love and grace of Jesus Christ.  They see their need for a savior and accept Christ as such. 

Some read about Jesus and want to spend their lives here and in eternity w/Him. 


In addition, I do agree that some people would go hog wild and act the fool if God were to be proven to be unreal, but I feel that (hopefully) most people would subscribe to the "I won't do X to them if I wouldn't want X done to me."  But I feel that if God wasn't real, no one would feel that way.

Once again Stella, always the voice of reason. 

I fear a day that something happens that "god" as most of us know him as, is falsely proven wrong.

[Straw Man]

Straw Man, I'm very sorry about your friend.

I have no idea if this will make you feel better at all because from what I can tell you don't believe in God (forgive me if that's an incorrect conclusion) but one possibility your friend suffered so long before dying is that he was given the opportunity to accept Christ as Savior during that time and maybe finally did so.  Of course I believe your friend would then now be in paradise w/Jesus!  His family also would have been able to express how much they loved him.

My dad was diagnosed w/cancer when I was 8 and died when I was 10.  Toward the end it was so horrible I couldn't even look at him.  He was 36 years old.  Why did this happen this way?   Maybe he needed that time to make a decision.  Maybe we needed him to have that time with us.  I don't know but I believe God is in control and knows everything.

A family friend recently died of cancer.  She was yellow at the end and wasting away to nothing.  She was strong in her Christian faith and glorified God during her illness.  She was a blessing to those who saw how she dealt w/it and reacted to her situation. 

I hope something will make you feel a bit better.   Time will make the pain less intense.  Sorry Straw Man.

Stella, thanks for the kind words and I don't mean to be harsh but telling myself that God kept him alive for a year (in incredible pain) just to give him time to accept Jesus is just the kind to story that does nothing for me.   What about the passenger who died at the crash? Why didn't he get any time.  What if my friend didn't accept Jesus? Should I assume he's now burning again in hell?  If there is a God and this happened for some reason then it's beyond our ability to understand.  Most likely it was just a horrible accident and that's just the way life is sometimes.  As I type this there are probably a few thousand children on the planet who will die today from malnutrition, dysentary, cancer, etc....but I don't feel bad for them because I don't know them and have no attachment but their deaths are no doubt just as harsh and meaningless.   I do actually believe that there is some greater reality into which our "reality" is wholly contained but I don't in any way buy into our man-made ideas such as that God needs us to accept it or we're condemned to eternal suffering.   Where ever my friend is now I know he's out of pain and the only people who are in pain are the ones who are left behind (not me - but his  family, close friends etc..)

[Butterbean]

If there is a God and this happened for some reason then it's beyond our ability to understand.   

The above is really the only answer I have for your questions in your last post.  One day we may know why things happen the way they do.

Once again, I'm sorry that this happened. 

[Straw Man]

The above is really the only answer I have for your questions in your last post.  One day we may know why things happen the way they do.

Once again, I'm sorry that this happened. 

Thanks Stella

[24KT]

I sleep like a baby.

Proof positive that "Ignorance is bliss" ain't it? 

[Deicide]

Once again Stella, always the voice of reason. 

I fear a day that something happens that "god" as most of us know him as, is falsely proven wrong.

Stella is the voice of reason?

She is a fundamentalist nutcase who believes that everything in the Bible in literally true, from Adam and Eve to the alleged Jesus of Nazareth's 'resurrection', and you call her a voice of reason?
 
What on earth are you sniffing Ozmo?

 

[Straw Man]

Stella is the voice of reason?

She is a fundamentalist nutcase who believes that everything in the Bible in literally true, from Adam and Eve to the alleged Jesus of Nazareth's 'resurrection', and you call her a voice of reason?
 
What on earth are you sniffing Ozmo?

 

I thought Ozmo's choice of words was odd too

but I do appreciate her (Stella's) obvious sincerity

[Deicide]

Stella, thanks for the kind words and I don't mean to be harsh but telling myself that God kept him alive for a year (in incredible pain) just to give him time to accept Jesus is just the kind to story that does nothing for me.   What about the passenger who died at the crash? Why didn't he get any time.  What if my friend didn't accept Jesus? Should I assume he's now burning again in hell?  If there is a God and this happened for some reason then it's beyond our ability to understand.  Most likely it was just a horrible accident and that's just the way life is sometimes.  As I type this there are probably a few thousand children on the planet who will die today from malnutrition, dysentary, cancer, etc....but I don't feel bad for them because I don't know them and have no attachment but their deaths are no doubt just as harsh and meaningless.   I do actually believe that there is some greater reality into which our "reality" is wholly contained but I don't in any way buy into our man-made ideas such as that God needs us to accept it or we're condemned to eternal suffering.   Where ever my friend is now I know he's out of pain and the only people who are in pain are the ones who are left behind (not me - but his  family, close friends etc..)

A friend of mine died of liver disease some years ago. We live in a universe, which is pitiless and indifferent. Things happen for no particular reason. Your friend has ceased to exist as had mine and we will all in a few short years. All the more reason to make the best of our time on this earth, rather than pretending to know things we don't. Occam's Razor is the best explanation for such things. Which makes more sense, a universe and world such as ours, where suffering, singular and massive is a daily occurence, affecting good and bad people alike with a loving creator who cares about each and every one of us or the same universe without such a deity; the latter explanation makes much more sense. People adhere to their religion in such times for psychological reasons, not evidence and rationality. And remember, that something is useful, does not make it true.

[Dos Equis]

Proof positive that "Ignorance is bliss" ain't it? 

If anyone knows ignorance, it's the twisted sister. 

[Hedgehog]

but one possibility your friend suffered so long before dying is that he was given the opportunity to accept Christ as Savior during that time and maybe finally did so. 

What about people who die instantly, eg Benazir Bhutto, who was shot?

We are all equal before God, so why would someone be given a long time for accepting Christ as his Savior, while others don't?

Or baby infants, who die at birth, why aren't they given the chance to accept Christ as their Savior?

[Butterbean]

What about people who die instantly, eg Benazir Bhutto, who was shot?

We are all equal before God, so why would someone be given a long time for accepting Christ as his Savior, while others don't?

I thought she didn't die instantly?

Some would say that people have their whole lives to accept Christ as Savior.  Do some people get extra time while in a situation that they know they will die soon?  I believe it's possible.  I also believe that someone on their way to smashing into a tree has enough time to accept Christ as Savior.

Or baby infants, who die at birth, why aren't they given the chance to accept Christ as their Savior?

I believe babies and young children go to heaven when they die, even though they may not have made a conscious choice to accept Christ. 

The following scripture is addressing when King David's infant son died:
 
2 Samuel 22,23
He answered, "While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept. I thought, 'Who knows? The LORD may be gracious to me and let the child live.' 23 But now that he is dead, why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me."

[Dos Equis]

Regarding babies and young children, I think the following applies: 

"Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin."  James 4:17

[Straw Man]

  I also believe that someone on their way to smashing into a tree has enough time to accept Christ as Savior.

stella, do you really think that a non-christian (hindu, muslim, jew, athiest) who is facing a split second life or death situation is going to be thinking about accepting JC as their saviour - seriously??

I believe babies and young children go to heaven when they die, even though they may not have made a conscious choice to accept Christ. 

If this were true then the best thing that could happen would be to die as a baby or young child.  Even the longest life is just an instant when compared to an eternity of bliss or agony.   If we all died as babies then we wouldn't have time to learn to reason and maybe reject superstition.    In fact I think Catholic priests/missionaries used to follow this very logic when they first came to America.   They would baptize Native American babies and then smash them against trees guaranteeing that they would go straight to heaven.   

[loco]

Straw Man, I'm very sorry about your childhood friend!  That's very sad!