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Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: Alex23 on January 07, 2008, 09:36:17 PM
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Not that I believe the official 911 story, but let's pretend Muslim terrorists did attack the WTC and lose their lives in the process. Are they heroes? No doubt they had been told that what they were doing was for the greater good. No doubt in their heart of hearts they felt they were doing something right. They lost their lives standing up for a cause which they believed was true and genuine. One which they sincerely thought would make the world a better place. Does that make them heroes? Or is it better to look beyond that and look at the facts, which would say they were cold blooded killers?
Hahahahaha, what a disrecpectful paranoid piece of shit. :-X
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Hahahahaha, what a disrecpectful paranoid piece of shit. :-X
He'll never recover. People like him shouldn't be allowed to breed. At least I can take solice in the fact that he's not American.
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.........so do most Libs :-\
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Matt C's a whiny little pussy
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And yet still no logic or formal debate in sight...
Hahahahaha, what a disrecpectful paranoid piece of shit. :-X
Didn't "Politically Incorrect" with Bill Maher get canceled for this exact same thing?
Spoken like someone who has no comprehension of philosophy at all. Go ahead and gather accolades from your fear mongering support base. It reminds me of Rudy Giuliani's comments in this debate:
Ron Paul: "Well I think the party has lost it's way, cause the conservative wing of the republican party always advocated a non-interventionist foreign policy. Senator Robert Taft didn't even want to be in NATO. George Bush won the election in year 2000 campaigning on a humble foreign policy. No nation building, no policing of the world. Republicans were elected to end the Korean war. The republicans were elected to end the Vietnam war. There's a strong tradition of being anti-war in the republican party, it is the constitutional position, it is the advice of the founders to follow a non-interventionist foreign policy. Stay out of entangling alliances. Be friends with countries, negotiate and talk with them and trade with them. Just think of the tremendous improvement of relationship with Vietnam. We lost 60,000 men, we came home in defeat, now we go over there and we invest in Vietnam. So there's a lot of merit to the advice of the founders and follow the constitution. My argument is that we shouldn't go to war so carelessly. When we do, the wars don't end."
Moderator: "Congressman, you don't think that changed with the 9/11 attack?"
Paul: "What changed?"
Moderator: "The non-interventionist policies"
Paul: "Non-intervention [ meant to say "intervention"? ] was a major contributing factor. Have you ever read about the reasons they attacked us. They attack us because we've been over there, we've been bombing Iraq for ten years. We've been in the middle east. I think Reagan was right. We don't understand the irrationality of Middle Eastern politics. Right now We're building an embassy in Iraq that's bigger than the Vatican, we're building 14 permanent bases. What would we say here if China was doing this in our country or in the Gulf of Mexico? We would be objecting. We need to look at what we do from the perspective of what would happen if somebody else did it to us."
Moderator: "Are you suggesting we invited the 9/11 attacks sir?"
Paul: "I'm suggesting that we listen to the people who attacked us and the reason they did it. And they are delighted that we are over there cause Osama Bin Laden has said 'I'm glad you're over on our sand because we can target you so much easier' They've already now since that time killed 3,400 of our men and I don't think it was necessary"
Guiliani: Can I make a comment on that? That's really an extraordinary statement. As someone who lived through the attack of September 11th, that we invited the attack because we were attacking Iraq. I don't think I've heard that before and I've heard some pretty absurd explanations for September 11th. [ applause ] I would ask the Congressman to withdraw that comment and tell us he didn't really mean that. [applause]
Look at Guiliani's fear of being politically incorrect! How difficult for us to accept that yes, the attacks were in part our own fault! Guiliani is just giving a fear mongering population what they want to hear rather than dealing with the cold hard facts.
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And you are afraid of dealing with the cold hard facts of why we are there, like it or not....go back and read 240's posts again and again, until you "get it".
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And you are afraid of dealing with the cold hard facts of why we are there, like it or not....go back and read 240's posts again and again, until you "get it".
WE, WE, WE. It's always about OUR way of life, isn't it? The thousands dead in Iraq thank you for your compassion!
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I wonder what the people of the U.S. would do if the Iraqi Army was rollin through our streets fuckin shit up ???
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I wonder what the people of the U.S. would do if the Iraqi Army was rollin through our streets fuckin shit up ???
We don't nor ever will have to worry about that..........unless we elect a pacifist lib.
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WE, WE, WE. It's always about OUR way of life, isn't it? The thousands dead in Iraq thank you for your compassion!
See, right there is were you are getting confused....
FUCK IRAQ
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It's clear the Western World isn't for you MattC.
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We don't nor ever will have to worry about that..........unless we elect a pacifist lib.
I've studied the neo-con stereotype in depth. I could probably tell YOU your own views on various political issues better than you could. ;D Here are some:
Christian
American
Heterosexual
Pro-life
Pro-gun
Pro-Iraq war
Conservative
Anyway, I AM a conservative. Conservative in the economic sense and a libertarian. The closest you could get to saying that I am a liberal is be calling me a moderate or non-partisan.
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is he Canadian? I am so embarrassed if he is
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I can respect any political opinion if they are researched and well formed, i.e., the product of critical thinking and not of brainwashing. I'm not saying that joelocal AKA The Coach AKA Mr. Intenseone is wrong in all of his beliefs, but I do think he formed them all due to brainwashing from a conservative upbringing, and that I can't respect. I do agree with him in many areas though, but unlike him, I have actually studied these issues and used critical thinking to reach the same conclusions he reached with brainwashing.
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WE, WE, WE. It's always about OUR way of life, isn't it? The thousands dead in Iraq thank you for your compassion!
thousands in iraq = collateral damage
STFU mattc
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matt c has a point. but do any of you know that 8 of the 11 highjackers are still alive. look it up. do your own research and find out for yourselves. do any of you know that the bush family has been doing business with the bin laden family for the past 20 or so years. bin laden himself was funded purely by the cia. the united states has more than 200 bases around the world and over the last 40 years has been has bombed more than 200 countries since ww2. sounds like empire expansion to me. most of us will deny all these things. its impossible for us to conceive that our country could be involved in such horrible things. you say fuck iraq i say fuck the western world. most of you that are for war , have never steped foot on a battle filed or know what its trully like. if you knew you wouldnt be for it. stop labelling yourselves. liberal , conservative democrate, cause its all the same shit. non of you stand for the true menaing of the words anymore. do you actually know what it means to be a democrate or a republican. since 1995 to 2001 1million iraqis died due to sanctions imposed by the u.s and england , more than half of them were children. i call that terorism. if you guys are so much for the war , please go and join right now. cause those soldires over in iraq are dying to get out of it. matt c mentioned the highjackers, you can label me a conspiracy therorist for sayigng this but 8 or 9 of the highjackers are still alive, how is this possible??
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Not that I believe the official 911 story, but let's pretend Muslim terrorists did attack the WTC and lose their lives in the process. Are they heroes? No doubt they had been told that what they were doing was for the greater good. No doubt in their heart of hearts they felt they were doing something right. They lost their lives standing up for a cause which they believed was true and genuine. One which they sincerely thought would make the world a better place. Does that make them heroes? Or is it better to look beyond that and look at the facts, which would say they were cold blooded killers?
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I can respect any political opinion if they are researched and well formed, i.e., the product of critical thinking and not of brainwashing. I'm not saying that joelocal AKA The Coach AKA Mr. Intenseone is wrong in all of his beliefs, but I do think he formed them all due to brainwashing from a conservative upbringing, and that I can't respect. I do agree with him in many areas though, but unlike him, I have actually studied these issues and used critical thinking to reach the same conclusions he reached with brainwashing.
With the first part I don't see how you disagree with it, if you were to look at it from the "terrorists" POV it makes sense.
Second part I also agree with. find it odd Matt C is getting attacked for something that is true. It's disturbing actually.
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Hahaha now that this thread is in the bucket of shit...
Watch the great thinkers/problem solvers/policy makers going at it for hours... ::)
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With the first part I don't see how you disagree with it, if you were to look at it from the "terrorists" POV it makes sense.
Second part I also agree with. find it odd Matt C is getting attacked for something that is true. It's disturbing actually.
The people bashing me are the same ones justifying relative ethics. It makes no sense at all to me.
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I wonder what the people of the U.S. would do if the Iraqi Army was rollin through our streets fuckin shit up ???
We'd send them home in pine boxes.
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Those 9/11 attackers weren't fucking SOLDIERS... Soldiers are heroes.
Those guys are fucking ass clowns.See, right there is were you are getting confused....
FUCK IRAQ
Exactly... I don't give two shits about that fucking country... I'd turn the fucking place into a big sheet of glass if I had my way.
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Funny how we get blamed for all these deaths when it is other Muslims strapping bombs on themselves and walking into a market with no US soldiers around and blowing up nothing but other Muslims. They do the same thing in Spain and other places where the US isn't. Should we take the blame for that too?
Should we go help out in Darfur or will the crybabies start whining about how great it was there before the US occupied it?
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Funny how we get blamed for all these deaths when it is other Muslims strapping bombs on themselves and walking into a market with no US soldiers around and blowing up nothing but other Muslims. They do the same thing in Spain and other places where the US isn't. Should we take the blame for that too?
Should we go help out in Darfur or will the crybabies start whining about how great it was there before the US occupied it?
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the u.s has 200 bases around the world in different countries. you really think they have other countries interests at heart or they are their for their own reasons only? what ever happened to sovereignty ?
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what ever happened to sovereignty ?
It died a long long time ago buddy. Nobody gives a flying fuck.
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Ridiculous debate..who cares about the Iraqi's..who cares about the hijackers..they attacked Americans. waa waa waa..911 conspiracy..that nobody can prove with cold hard facts..its all emotional bullshit that eventualy turns into some anti-Bush rant. U idiots still can't get over that the guy won an election. As far as this Matt C turd being a Conservative. Ur the only con who's called the 911 hijackers war heroes or cared about the Iraq's/terrorist scumbags..so I'd say ur full of shit.
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Hey mattc, are you the one who posted some diplomas made with COMIC SANS FONT?
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Everyone here has to realize that MattC is very, very ordinary in all aspects... looks, physique, career, social life etc
Nothing stands out about him... and the only way for him to do so, whether in life or on this board...
...Is to stand out with unpopular comments. I see it all the time, not just on the boards, but in person
sad really
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We'd send them home in pine boxes.
*DING DING DING*
Hey mattc, are you the one who posted some diplomas made with COMIC SANS FONT?
Yes, and it is a genuine Canadian Forces award, among many others I have.
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Anybody that slams a jet into a building killing thousands of innocent people is no hero.
Now, if they slammed a jet into an invading army and killed thousands of soldiers, then, they might be called heroes regardless of what side they are on.
But in this case they are just murderers.
And anyone who thinks otherwise is a idiot.
Additionally, I am still amazed at the shear ignorance some people display regarding the "19 hijackers" and their unwillingness to accept that they did what they did. It amazes me how they will grab on to any and all suspect and frivolous information they can find on the web to convince them they or some are still alive. It amazes even more how they fail to apply even basic logic to that claim.
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I believe Matt C is trying to allude to perception and what is factually right or wrong. We need to be aware of what is right, and what is wrong. No one out there does horrific things just because they, well......can. They do it because the action they want to perform or have performed is justified in their logic, a logic that can be derived from their religion, political beliefs, personal beliefs, learning instutions, or simply "eye for an eye." Some of the largest and most violent atrocities were committed in the name of the "greater good." Hitler didn't set up concentration camps just because he felt like it. Stalin didn't kill 20+ million people just for the sake of "evil." Often, they thought they were on the side of the righteous, and the opposing forces were evil despite being factually right to prevent more murder and atrocities.
The 9/11 hijackers are not heroes. They are factual murderers. Flying planes into buildings to kill several thousand innocent people is mass murder. I don't give a shit if some whackjob religious fanatic in the desert thinks it right and justified. Perception is not fact. Could our long-time involvement in the middle east have contributed to the events of 9/11? Yes, I believe that is difficult to debate against. If we weren't in the middle east and had a general isolationist policy, would 9/11 have happened? I think the chances would have been diminished. Again, what happend on 9/11 was murder. Killing people in response to (Insert: Middle East military/political involvement, Complete backing of Israel and it's policies, importation of "offensive" Western culture...take your pick) is not a solution.
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the 9/11 hijackers were terrorists exactly like the Israeli "soldiers" who go into Palestinian settlements with US supplied tanks and level them and kill the people.
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I believe Matt C is trying to allude to perception and what is factually right or wrong. We need to be aware of what is right, and what is wrong. No one out there does horrific things just because they, well......can. They do it because the action they want to perform or have performed is justified in their logic, a logic that can be derived from their religion, political beliefs, personal beliefs, learning instutions, or simply "eye for an eye." Some of the largest and most violent atrocities were committed in the name of the "greater good." Hitler didn't set up concentration camps just because he felt like it. Stalin didn't kill 20+ million people just for the sake of "evil." Often, they thought they were on the side of the righteous, and the opposing forces were evil despite being factually right to prevent more murder and atrocities.
The 9/11 hijackers are not heroes. They are factual murderers. Flying planes into buildings to kill several thousand innocent people is mass murder. I don't give a shit if some whackjob religious fanatic in the desert thinks it right and justified. Perception is not fact. Could our long-time involvement in the middle east have contributed to the events of 9/11? Yes, I believe that is difficult to debate against. If we weren't in the middle east and had a general isolationist policy, would 9/11 have happened? I think the chances would have been diminished. Again, what happend on 9/11 was murder. Killing people in response to (Insert: Middle East military/political involvement, Complete backing of Israel and it's policies, importation of "offensive" Western culture...take your pick) is not a solution.
no doubt.
Murders none the less, with or with our religious or cultural justification.
And in my mind. COWARDS.
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the 9/11 hijackers were terrorists exactly like the Israeli "soldiers" who go into Palestinian settlements with US supplied tanks and level them and kill the people.
I agree mostly on principle but not in the details.
Typically, Israeli soldiers are attacking suspected military targets (Hamas or w/e) and in turn innocent people get killed. The 19 hijackers were not attacking a military target.
What the Israelis are doing and their way of dealing with it is brutal and oppressive.
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I agree mostly on principle but not in the details.
Typically, Israeli soldiers are attacking suspected military targets (Hamas or w/e) and in turn innocent people get killed. The 19 hijackers were not attacking a military target.
What the Israelis are doing and their way of dealing with it is brutal and oppressive.
hahahaha, you don't actually believe that bullshit do you? you've been watching too much Fox News. ::)
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hahahaha, you don't actually believe that bullshit do you? you've been watching to much Fox News. ::)
No actually not. I get my info from 2 Palestinian friends who used to live in there and have family still lliving there. They also get several Arab news stations on their TV.
Re-read my post. I used words like, "suspected, brutal and oppressive"
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No actually not. I get my info from 2 Palestinian friends who used to live in there and have family still lliving there. They also get several Arab news stations on their TV.
Re-read my post. I used words like, "suspected, brutal and oppressive"
ISRAEL ATTACKING WHOEVER IT WANTS WITH IMPUNITY FOR 60 YEARS IS THE REAL REASON WE WERE ATTACKED ON 9/11, NOTHING ELSE.
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ISRAEL ATTACKING WHOEVER IT WANTS WITH IMPUNITY FOR 60 YEARS IS THE REAL REASON WE WERE ATTACKED ON 9/11, NOTHING ELSE.
That's stupid.
Then why not attack Israel?
Does a terrorist attack on the USA help their cause or hurt it?
Is life easier for the Terrorists or harder because of what they did on 9/11?
Did 9/11 help the terrorists cause with the American people?
Did it help with world opinion?
Did it help with Americans feeling justified invading Iraq?
Did it help the terrorists when a country they had impunity in and a friendly government in, Afghanistan, was taken away from them?
So if you are right, and that is why they did it, They are stupid morons.
BTW in this case, the reason doesn't matter when you are dealing religious finatics or brutal psychopaths, because they will always find some reason to justify their actions. Just ask your typical murderer in prison.
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Anybody that slams a jet into a building killing thousands of innocent people is no hero.
Now, if they slammed a jet into an invading army and killed thousands of soldiers, then, they might be called heroes regardless of what side they are on.
But in this case they are just murderers.
And anyone who thinks otherwise is a idiot.
Additionally, I am still amazed at the shear ignorance some people display regarding the "19 hijackers" and their unwillingness to accept that they did what they did. It amazes me how they will grab on to any and all suspect and frivolous information they can find on the web to convince them they or some are still alive. It amazes even more how they fail to apply even basic logic to that claim.
I don't consider the FBI's website to be "suspect and frivolous" and as shown below, Bin Laden is not even wanted in conjunction with the 9.11 attacks:
http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/topten/fugitives/laden.htm
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the 9/11 hijackers were terrorists exactly like the Israeli "soldiers" who go into Palestinian settlements with US supplied tanks and level them and kill the people.
What u know about the military could fill a thimble, even less about the IDF. The Merkava 3 is an Israeli designed tank....I suppose going into a pizza joint or school bus and blowing urself up is the mark of a hero.
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*DING DING DING*
Yes, and it is a genuine Canadian Forces award, among many others I have.
Is that the best the canadian forces got? a joke diploma with COMIC SANS font bahahaha are you serious? Were they laughing at you when they gave you that? hahah
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What u know about the military could fill a thimble, even less about the IDF. The Merkava 3 is an Israeli designed tank....I suppose going into a pizza joint or school bus and blowing urself up is the mark of a hero.
hahahhaa, you're a typical brainwashed knuckledragging heathen, go back to watching Fox news in your tent and keep listening to Dubya tell you how great everything is.
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the 9/11 hijackers were terrorists exactly like the Israeli "soldiers" who go into Palestinian settlements with US supplied tanks and level them and kill the people.
I don't know if I think they are exactly the same, but I do believe you have a point in that I too think that the Israeli military rolling into areas with tanks and cannons is at least a police state.
Especially when they are in opposition to people carrying sticks and stones.
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Is that the best the canadian forces got? a joke diploma with COMIC SANS font bahahaha are you serious? Were they laughing at you when they gave you that? hahah
ROFL! ;D
Yes, the Canadian Forces is noted for purchasing off the lowest bidder. :-X
Here are some of my other more respectably produced military certificates:
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are you seriously proud to have those? they look ok to use them as toilet paper
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I'm glad to see privates in the Canadian army are experts on foreign policy. Having served with ur comrades, u must have missed the part when they handed out balls and brains.
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hahahhaa, you're a typical brainwashed knuckledragging heathen, go back to watching Fox news in your tent and keep listening to Dubya tell you how great everything is.
Have u ever left ur moms' basement..oh yeah u need to go for twinikies...keep shoving down fat guy......Things are great when u have a job and education..can see past ur gut.....shall i continue chubby...
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I don't consider the FBI's website to be "suspect and frivolous" and as shown below, Bin Laden is not even wanted in conjunction with the 9.11 attacks:
http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/topten/fugitives/laden.htm
This is what i'm talking about:
matt c has a point. but do any of you know that 8 of the 11 highjackers are still alive.
As for the FBI,
Are you concluding that because they don't list they are after him for 9/11 on their web site that the FBI doesn't think OBL had anything to do with it?
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Are you concluding that because they don't list they are after him for 9/11 on their web site that the FBI doesn't think OBL had anything to do with it?
they listed him on their website as 'wanted' for past attacks within weeks, with far less evidence. The USS Cole, for example.
Given the videotaped confession he supposedly made (if you assume the tape is real), why in the world wouldn't he be charged? It's not often you have a videotaped confession to the biggest crime of our lifetimes... when you do have it... um, ya charge the guy, right?
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they listed him on their website as 'wanted' for past attacks within weeks, with far less evidence. The USS Cole, for example.
Given the videotaped confession he supposedly made (if you assume the tape is real), why in the world wouldn't he be charged? It's not often you have a videotaped confession to the biggest crime of our lifetimes... when you do have it... um, ya charge the guy, right?
You'd think so, but I'm not an attorney and neither are you. Also, we don;t have all the information they have on OBL regarding 9/11, maybe all they have is a video tape and unprovable intelligence he was involved.
Do I get what you are saying? Because they aren't officially charging him for 9/11 that supports the speculation that the FBI and the US government secretly thinks he wasn't involved?
A confession doesn't make you guilty or give authorities legal right to accuse you of something. If they did that, solely based on a video tape confession then they'd have to charge everyone who "confessed" the same crime and i'm sure there were dozens of nut jobs who called in and took credit for it.
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I heard the same fact - that 7 of 19 suspected terrorists were still alive. Discuss.
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What u know about the military could fill a thimble, even less about the IDF. The Merkava 3 is an Israeli designed tank....I suppose going into a pizza joint or school bus and blowing urself up is the mark of a hero.
Yeah, but isn't that the case with 99% of the people on this board? The majority of the comments people try to pass off as fact on here are speculation pulled from crappy internet sites that they assume to be true just because someone said so. Sorry, I mean everyone here knows the inner workings of our govt. from their homes. ::)
Taking applications for "Team MattC supports terrorism"!!!!!
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I heard the same fact - that 7 of 19 suspected terrorists were still alive. Discuss.
You heard the same fact? ::)
please elaborate.
If you can.
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You heard the same fact? ::)
please elaborate.
If you can.
He heard it on the internet. It's 100% true!!!!!!!!! ::)
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Yeah, but isn't that the case with 99% of the people on this board? The majority of the comments people try to pass off as fact on here are speculation pulled from crappy internet sites that they assume to be true just because someone said so. Sorry, I mean everyone here knows the inner workings of our govt. from their homes. ::)
Taking applications for "Team MattC supports terrorism"!!!!!
3 things.
1. Common Sense
2. Beware of conjecture
3. Avoid labeling speculation as fact or concrete conclusion
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3 things.
1. Common Sense
2. Beware of conjecture
3. Avoid labeling speculation as fact or concrete conclusion
If you're directing this at me, then that's pretty funny. Sorry if some of the "facts" and other shit people pull up on here from biased and falsified sites ends up being laughably pathetic. The whole "I read this on some random internet site written by Joe Schmoe in Utah" so it has to be true thing is funny. Just look at the idiots claiming "7 of the 11 hijackers are still alive," without any link to any proof whatsoever. ::)
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Regarding the title of this thread. Everyone is someones Hero... :-\
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You'd think so, but I'm not an attorney and neither are you. Also, we don;t have all the information they have on OBL regarding 9/11, maybe all they have is a video tape and unprovable intelligence he was involved.
Anyone have the quote of the FBI big whig on why he's not on the list?
He was asked. Answer was something about 'we have no evidence he was involved in 911'. Anyone find the exact quote?
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Regarding the title of this thread. Everyone is someones Hero... :-\
that is why I agreed with Matt C in the first place, it made sense. to my understanding that was his point to begin with. not as if he is saying they are his heros. definitely someones else's hero
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that is why I agreed with Matt C in the first place, it made sense. to my understanding that was his point to begin with. not as if he is saying they are his heros. definitely someones else's hero
i don't agree. If during WW2 someone crashed a plane into a building in Germany killing 3000 civilians who were not actively aiding the war in any way, i still would call that person a murderer.
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its all a matter of perspective. to some 'people', they ARE heros. of course they arent to us. one man's rebel is another man's freedom fighter. the only real winner in this is Chuck Norris.
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its all a matter of perspective. to some 'people', they ARE heros. of course they arent to us. one man's rebel is another man's freedom fighter. the only real winner in this is Chuck Norris.nasser
times have changed
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I'm glad to see privates in the Canadian army are experts on foreign policy. Having served with ur comrades, u must have missed the part when they handed out balls and brains.
LOL ;D
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that is why I agreed with Matt C in the first place, it made sense. to my understanding that was his point to begin with. not as if he is saying they are his heros. definitely someones else's hero
Yes, exactly. I think the 9.11 terrorists (if the official story is true) are disgusting murderers. I couldn't give a fuck if their beliefs and values would make them feel otherwise. If you kill innocent people, you are a piece of shit in my book, regardless of what you believe in. But I can't call them cowards - it takes a lot of balls to be willing to die for something you believe in. I would call them assholes or psychos, and cowardly in that they killed so many innocent people, but not cowardly in that they were willing to die for something they believed in.
Alex23 has nothing of substance to add to the debate, so just resorts to strawmen instead.
times have changed
ROFL! ;D
So is the general consensus in the US that the Canadian Forces is a farce?
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Brutal juxtaposition of morality
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So is the general consensus in the US that the Canadian Forces is a farce?
I dunno... You wanna fight over the title of "Greatest Military Force in North America"?
;)
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Brutal juxtaposition of morality
Excellent usage of the word juxtaposition... Props big man.
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Excellent usage of the word juxtaposition... Props big man.
;)
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i don't agree. If during WW2 someone crashed a plane into a building in Germany killing 3000 civilians who were not actively aiding the war in any way, i still would call that person a murderer.
We Brits were flying raids on German cities during the war & bombing the shit out of them as they were with London. I also believe the US left their mark on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
War targets civilians. Period.
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We Brits were flying raids on German cities during the war & bombing the shit out of them as they were with London. I also believe the US left their mark on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
War targets civilians. Period.
true. our firebombing of tokyo as well as the nuke drops AFTER they had no airforce to speak of and had zero offensive capability, which killed hundreds of thousands of civiliansm, were not exactly WWJD hahaha
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true. our firebombing of tokyo as well as the nuke drops AFTER they had no airforce to speak of and had zero offensive capability, which killed hundreds of thousands of civiliansm, were not exactly WWJD hahaha
We Brits were flying raids on German cities during the war & bombing the shit out of them as they were with London. I also believe the US left their mark on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
War targets civilians. Period.
There are some differences between that and 9/11
I forget what it's called exactly but, in Japan and in Germany many civilians were engaged in war production in residential neighborhoods. We weren't targeting civilians just to kill civilians. Aside from that all those countries including the USA was engaged in years of war. What they did on 9/11 was a terrorist act and murder.
Also, we were not at war on 9/11
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Also, we were not at war on 9/11
Didn't Osama declare war on us before 9/11? It was either a few months or a year or so...anyone recall? he wrote some crazy ass document. now, i dont know if you can be at war if someone declares it but you dont accept.
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He just said they were heros from the povs of their people, just as our troops are from our pov.
Our troops are doing immoral deeds to better our lives, just as the terrorists thought they were doing something to better the lives of their people.
MattC said nothing wrong, so get off his back. You can't stand any sort of criticism, and belittle people when you can't find decent counter arguements. You keep calling him names, yet can't counter any of his valid points.
The point he makes is a very simple one. The US invaded Iraq for oil, and in the process fucked that country up. Simple as that. Any one in touch with humanity ought to feel for what's happened there and what's going to happen there; regardless of their political alligence.
So stop with the 'lib' and 'canadian' bs.. Just openly admit that US soliders are raiders for a better lifestyle for their people. Hell, they've got my support. However, I'm not going to honor them as though they're highly moral people fighting for good and peace throughout the world.
Learn to read between the lines, folks. If you can't, then you're no better than the people you are denouncing and that's the honest truth.
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He just said they were heros from the povs of their people, just as our troops are from our pov.
Our troops are doing immoral deeds to better our lives, just as the terrorists thought they were doing something to better the lives of their people.
MattC said nothing wrong, so get off his back. You can't stand any sort of criticism, and belittle people when you can't find decent counter arguements. You keep calling him names, yet can't counter any of his valid points.
The point he makes is a very simple one. The US invaded Iraq for oil, and in the process fucked that country up. Simple as that. Any one in touch with humanity ought to feel for what's happened there and what's going to happen there; regardless of their political alligence.
So stop with the 'lib' and 'canadian' bs.. Just openly admit that US soliders are raiders for a better lifestyle for their people. Hell, they've got my support. However, I'm not going to honor them as though they're highly moral people fighting for good and peace throughout the world.
Learn to read between the lines, folks. If you can't, then you're no better than the people you are denouncing and that's the honest truth.
Why do you act like we're forcing the Iraqis to blow each other up and chop kids and innocent people's heads off? ::)
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Why do you act like we're forcing the Iraqis to blow each other up and chop kids and innocent people's heads off? ::)
Would there have been an insurgency if we hadn't invaded? We allowed some mad disease to breed and multiply.
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I dunno... You wanna fight over the title of "Greatest Military Force in North America"?
;)
i believe you and canada tried that little war 200 years ago.
and the americans got their asses handed to them.
typical american, always bragging about military power, not caring they are the most hated nation in the world.
bottom line in all this debate is that if the US gov't had not spent the better part of half a century going around the globe, bullying weaker nations for their own monetary/ political gain, you wouldn't be worried about having some aggitated muslim wanting to blow your asses back into the middle ages.
you are now reaping what you sow.
it's just a shame innocent lives are being lost over it.
but blame no one but your own establishment.
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i believe you and canada tried that little war 200 years ago.
and the americans got their asses handed to them.
typical american, always bragging about military power, not caring they are the most hated nation in the world.
bottom line in all this debate is that if the US gov't had not spent the better part of half a century going around the globe, bullying weaker nations for their own monetary/ political gain, you wouldn't be worried about having some aggitated muslim wanting to blow your asses back into the middle ages.
you are now reaping what you sow.
it's just a shame innocent lives are being lost over it.
but blame no one but your own establishment.
Haha... 200 years ago? Good one.
I'm not spouting the American military machine in a general sense, but MattC brought up the idea of the Canadian Military and it's power... Not I.
I personally would LOVE the US to go back to being an isolationist country and say fuck all to the rest of the world... Make things here... Buy them here... Let the rest of the world do without the economic wealth that the US provides.
I have NO desire to flex military might unless it's on my home soil.
Do not talk about what you do not know about.
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Didn't Osama declare war on us before 9/11? It was either a few months or a year or so...anyone recall? he wrote some crazy ass document. now, i dont know if you can be at war if someone declares it but you dont accept.
So by virtue of an "individual" declaring war on a country it makes murdering 3000 innocent people legitimate? So any individual can obtain this status by simply declaring war?
A Government declaring war and person declaring war are not the same.
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He just said they were heros from the povs of their people, just as our troops are from our pov.
Anyone who would call killing 3000 innocent people by a cowardly sneak attack heroes are fucking religious nut jobs who need to be brought out of the stone ages. These are simple minded hateful infighting scum. Yes from their POV's they are heroes, but their POV's is the same one that wanted to kill a 2nd grade teacher for the teddy thing, the same POV that execute a preteen girl from walking home with another boy unaccompanied, of that's after the village elders all raped her, the backward barbaric culture that represses women, kills their daughters for not wearing a head dress etc... yeah some POV... ::)
Our troops are doing immoral deeds to better our lives, just as the terrorists thought they were doing something to better the lives of their people.
And exactly how has 9/11 bettered the lives of their people?
Do they still have a haven in Afghanistan like before?
Are the average middle easterners more fear or less fearful the USA since 9/11?
9/11 did not help their cause.
MattC said nothing wrong, so get off his back. You can't stand any sort of criticism, and belittle people when you can't find decent counter arguements. You keep calling him names, yet can't counter any of his valid points.
I don't know about everyone else, but address my points above.
The point he makes is a very simple one. The US invaded Iraq for oil, and in the process fucked that country up. Simple as that. Any one in touch with humanity ought to feel for what's happened there and what's going to happen there; regardless of their political alligence.
No, I think the idiot BUSh actually believed he was doing the right thing, and in turn everyone who could take advantage fo that opportunity, including oil companies, took it.
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Anyone who would call killing 3000 innocent people by a cowardly sneak attack heroes are fucking religious nut jobs who need to be brought out of the stone ages. These are simple minded hateful infighting scum. Yes from their POV's they are heroes, but their POV's is the same one that wanted to kill a 2nd grade teacher for the teddy thing, the same POV that execute a preteen girl from walking home with another boy unaccompanied, of that's after the village elders all raped her, the backward barbaric culture that represses women, kills their daughters for not wearing a head dress etc... yeah some POV... ::)
And exactly how has 9/11 bettered the lives of their people?
Do they still have a haven in Afghanistan like before?
Are the average middle easterners more fear or less fearful the USA since 9/11?
9/11 did not help their cause.
I don't know about everyone else, but address my points above.
They thought it would and that's what made them do it. It's the same thing that makes an ignorant kid watch CNN and go and enlist. It's all about what they think.
Of course they're savages to any sane person... ::) My point is that they're war heros to the people who support them and their mad cause. I don't care for them, nor am I defending them, just saying what they are to their beloved and twisted cause.
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Do they still have a haven in Afghanistan like before?
Are the average middle easterners more fear or less fearful the USA since 9/11?
9/11 did not help their cause.
They have havens all over now.. Including the US and Europe. I think we should ban mosques.
9/11 made their cause stronger. It showed how 18 people could cause so much hurt and panic to the world's strongest nation. As you know, Iraq followed, and it was like a strengthening solution to the terrorists due to the WMD stuff being proven to be a bunch of shit.
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Ozmo is the only voice of reason in this thread. Camel "I'm a future suicide bomber" Jockey seems to like talking out of his ass. Not surprising considering his mouth is firmly attached to Nasser's sphincter. Inhaling all that methane must be going to his head.
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They have havens all over now.. Including the US and Europe. I think we should ban mosques.
9/11 made their cause stronger. It showed how 18 people could cause so much hurt and panic to the world's strongest nation. As you know, Iraq followed, and it was like a strengthening solution to the terrorists due to the WMD stuff being proven to be a bunch of shit.
They didn't have havens before? They had all of Afghanistan, they had money that wasn't frozen, they didn't have other governments looking for them like they are now, they did have Western public opinion as much against them as they are now, their network was dealt a strong blow, they have American Special Ops running missions on them all over the place...........
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So by virtue of an "individual" declaring war on a country it makes murdering 3000 innocent people legitimate? So any individual can obtain this status by simply declaring war?
A Government declaring war and person declaring war are not the same.
innocent?
the people who died were innocent, but your government is not.
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innocent?
the people who died were innocent, but your government is not.
That's kind of a stupid thing to say.
What government is totally innocent? ::)
3000 innocent people died. They are no different than innocent Palestinians, Israelis, Somali's, Russians, etc...
It doesn't matter what caused it. The cause was unjustified.
So before you go whining about America being hated and our foreign policy being what it is, remember we are still talking about 3000 people who lost their lives becuase of cowardly religious nut job murderers. That's where the blame goes. Not the US government.
That's like your daughter dressing very sexy, and someone raping her and then telling her her it was a shame she was raped and then blaming the way she chose to dress as the reason she was raped. and then telling her she reaps what she sows and then telling you that you have no one to blame but yourself
Sound familiar dumbass?
you are now reaping what you sow.
it's just a shame innocent lives are being lost over it.
but blame no one but your own establishment.
That's morally pathetic to think that.
If those cowards were worth anything other than the low scum they are they would have attacked a military installation.
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That's kind of a stupid thing to say.
What government is totally innocent? ::)
3000 innocent people died. They are no different than innocent Palestinians, Israelis, Somali's, Russians, etc...
It doesn't matter what caused it. The cause was unjustified.
So before you go whining about America being hated and our foreign policy being what it is, remember we are still talking about 3000 people who lost their lives becuase of cowardly religious nut job murderers. That's where the blame goes. Not the US government.
That's like your daughter dressing very sexy, and someone raping her and then telling her her it was a shame she was raped and then blaming the way she chose to dress as the reason she was raped. and then telling her she reaps what she sows and then telling you that you have no one to blame but yourself
Sound familiar dumbass?
That's morally pathetic to think that.
If those cowards were worth anything other than the low scum they are they would have attacked a military installation.
no, it's only morally pathetic to think that because you cannot pull your head out of your jingoistic ass and see the facts for what they are.
only bombed military installations huh?
tell the thousands of japanese who lost their lives at hiroshima/nagaskai that, dumbass.
lol. simpleton. dont even bother starting your name calling bullshit with me just because your losing your grip on the reality of the situation your government has created for itself globally and you cannot use intelligence to defend your counter-point and have to resort to name-calling.
your country is the biggest bully in the playground, and they finally picked a fight with someone who doesnt fight by the rules, and now wants to cry about it. oh well. suck it up now, cowboy.
you as a person, should be embarrassed to even begin to defend your governments actions, no matter how stupidly and blindingly patriotic you think you are being.
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That's like your daughter dressing very sexy, and someone raping her and then telling her her it was a shame she was raped and then blaming the way she chose to dress as the reason she was raped. and then telling her she reaps what she sows and then telling you that you have no one to blame but yourself
I don't see how this example applies. In this case the girl in question is completely innocent. How is the USA's interventionist foreign policy not guilt on the USA's part for causing the 9.11 attacks?
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no, it's only morally pathetic to think that because you cannot pull your head out of your jingoistic ass and see the facts for what they are.
Seems like i touched a nerve :-*
Facts for what they are? I see 3000 dead people who died innocently by the hand of cowards.
What do you see? You see blaming the cause and not the executors of those deaths. That's what's pathetic about you.
only bombed military installations huh?
tell the thousands of japanese who lost their lives at hiroshima/nagaskai that, dumbass.
i agree. Those were seemingly senseless deaths and a very hard decision for those who made it.
But there are some differences between that and 9/11 if you weren't so mentally challenged you may be able to comprehend them.
- We were at war with Japan for almost 5 years.
- Invading the mainland would have caused far more death on both sides
- The Japanese were very loyal to their empoer and were prepare to fight to the death
- Kamakisi strikes were increasing at an alarming rate
- Russia was positioned continue the war
I agree, in the end. It was awful and easy to second guess it. But in some sense i really do believe it saved lives. Unfortunately at the cost of those in those cities. But i bet you don't even know more died in ONE Tokyo fire bombings prior to the a-bombs and still, Japan was unwilling to surrender.
And i'm not some fcuking idiot who runs around saying:
you are now reaping what you sow.
it's just a shame innocent lives are being lost over it.
but blame no one but your own establishment.
You are truly a low class piece of shit to say that.
lol. simpleton. dont even bother starting your name calling bullshit with me just because your losing your grip on the reality of the situation your government has created for itself globally and you cannot use intelligence to defend your counter-point and have to resort to name-calling.
Just so you know, i have no problem name calling you now as you have just proved yourself more of what of what i inferred you to be , becuase of your monumentally stupid assertion above i felt calling you "dumb-ass" was very understated.
your country is the biggest bully in the playground, and they finally picked a fight with someone who doesnt fight by the rules, and now wants to cry about it. oh well. suck it up now, cowboy.
Yeah, well, maybe so skippy, by I'm fine in my land and by the looks of it, everyone else is to. And the bottom line is, even thogh i am very much against the iraq war form the start, we have the oil and we have the power. So fcuking deal with it, free loader.
you as a person, should be embarrassed to even begin to defend your governments actions, no matter how stupidly and blindingly patriotic you think you are being.
If you knew how to read you'd realize i'm not. But then again you are the idiot who thinks your daughter is to blame to being raped and not the raper.
You are a moron.
I have no illusions about the transgressions of the USA in the world. If anything I'm left leaning moderate who is very critical of US foreign policy especially since 9/11. However, i am not so touch with reality that i would blame the US government for what 19 nut jobs did.
We all have the ability to chose our actions. Those 19 nutjobs chose to kill innocent in response to the USA. the USA did not force them to do it.
Get over it ass hole.
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I don't see how this example applies. In this case the girl in question is completely innocent. How is the USA's interventionist foreign policy not guilt on the USA's part for causing the 9.11 attacks?
Simple:
We all have the power to choose our actions
The USA is responsible for it's actions with-in the realm of how it contributed to the motivation for those 19 hijackers. but they are not responsible or to blame for the action itself.
That action was a choice made by 19 fanatics.
To say the USA is responsible is like saying:
If you don't do "x" then i'll kill innocnet people and it will be your fault.
that's classic criminal mentality.
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how did those 19 guys bring down World Trade building #7?
How did they (after being dead 8 hours) wire the burning building with explosives, tell everyone to get back, run a 20-second countdown to demolition, then collect 500 mil in insurance money on that building, saying that it fell from fire damage?
I'll accept everything you say about the official story - but - somebody wired WTC7, got all the people back, did a countdown, and collected $. And, at least one employee of that building died. THose 19 guys didn't bring down WTC7. Who did?
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how did those 19 guys bring down World Trade building #7?
How did they (after being dead 8 hours) wire the burning building with explosives, tell everyone to get back, run a 20-second countdown to demolition, then collect 500 mil in insurance money on that building, saying that it fell from fire damage?
I'll accept everything you say about the official story - but - somebody wired WTC7, got all the people back, did a countdown, and collected $. And, at least one employee of that building died. THose 19 guys didn't bring down WTC7. Who did?
::)
evidence please
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how did those 19 guys bring down World Trade building #7?
How did they (after being dead 8 hours) wire the burning building with explosives, tell everyone to get back, run a 20-second countdown to demolition, then collect 500 mil in insurance money on that building, saying that it fell from fire damage?
I'll accept everything you say about the official story - but - somebody wired WTC7, got all the people back, did a countdown, and collected $. And, at least one employee of that building died. THose 19 guys didn't bring down WTC7. Who did?
I'm not getting into the whole debate about any of the bombers or anything... Who did what... whatever.
The reality is that we ARE in Iraq, and we're not going anywhere... The soldiers over there are doing their jobs and being heroes and that's all that matters to me.
As long as they are stuck there... I've got their back.
Anyone who says anything about a soldier can go fuck themselves.
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Anyone who says anything about a soldier can go fuck themselves.
So essentially anyone who thinks about the issue critically rather than believing the official story is an idiot I guess?
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::)
evidence please
Go to youtube, type in WTC7.
You can watch dozens of video clips from 911. In the minutes before 911, you hear numerous firefighters ordering people back, saying they were bringing the building down. Numerous NYPD and FDNY personnel admit it. Hell, our very own neocon kh300, a former nypd cop, admits there was a 20 second countdown. Look at it fall - classic demolition. CNN and BBC reported it had collapsed 53 MINUTES before it did. Those clips are on there too.
WTC7 is the smoking gun that someone other than those 19 guys were involved. No one is arguing that 19 assholes did some fvcked up shit and should burn in hell for it. BUT - someone wired a building with explosives - either before 911, or ON 911 as it burned (which is impossible - carrying TNT into a fire? nah).
WTC7 is why so many people doubt the official story.
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I'm not getting into the whole debate about any of the bombers or anything... Who did what... whatever.
For the first time in history, a 47 story skyscraper convert itself from standing, into 20 feet of molten steel and many tons of 100 mc concrete powder, in under 7 seconds.
Yeah, that's kinda important. No plane hit this building. Two fires in it. And this building disintegrated in 7 seconds.
Best part is - the 911 commission never mentions WTC 7. Not once. Many govt offices in there, including SEC, Secret services, fbi, etc. Someone wired their building. Under their noses? It makes zero sense. And since there is no official story that even says fire caused it, what are we supposed to think? They promised the final findigns 3 years ago. Still nothing. It's been cancelled. Why?
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Seems like i touched a nerve :-*
Facts for what they are? I see 3000 dead people who died innocently by the hand of cowards.
What do you see? You see blaming the cause and not the executors of those deaths. That's what's pathetic about you.
i agree. Those were seemingly senseless deaths and a very hard decision for those who made it.
But there are some differences between that and 9/11 if you weren't so mentally challenged you may be able to comprehend them.
- We were at war with Japan for almost 5 years.
- Invading the mainland would have caused far more death on both sides
- The Japanese were very loyal to their empoer and were prepare to fight to the death
- Kamakisi strikes were increasing at an alarming rate
- Russia was positioned continue the war
I agree, in the end. It was awful and easy to second guess it. But in some sense i really do believe it saved lives. Unfortunately at the cost of those in those cities. But i bet you don't even know more died in ONE Tokyo fire bombings prior to the a-bombs and still, Japan was unwilling to surrender.
And i'm not some fcuking idiot who runs around saying:
You are truly a low class piece of shit to say that.
Just so you know, i have no problem name calling you now as you have just proved yourself more of what of what i inferred you to be , becuase of your monumentally stupid assertion above i felt calling you "dumb-ass" was very understated.
Yeah, well, maybe so skippy, by I'm fine in my land and by the looks of it, everyone else is to. And the bottom line is, even thogh i am very much against the iraq war form the start, we have the oil and we have the power. So fcuking deal with it, free loader.
If you knew how to read you'd realize i'm not. But then again you are the idiot who thinks your daughter is to blame to being raped and not the raper.
You are a moron.
I have no illusions about the transgressions of the USA in the world. If anything I'm left leaning moderate who is very critical of US foreign policy especially since 9/11. However, i am not so touch with reality that i would blame the US government for what 19 nut jobs did.
We all have the ability to chose our actions. Those 19 nutjobs chose to kill innocent in response to the USA. the USA did not force them to do it.
Get over it ass hole.
lol.
you couldn't touch a nerve on me to save your life. i know an imbicile when i hear one. your idiocy only comes second to the fact that you know nothing of global politics- and you're a moderator here? lol.
no matter how it shapes up cupcake, im right. you're wrong. live with it.
afterall, you'll be the one living in fear the rest of your pathetic life, wondering when the next attack will come, afraid to travel abroad or even get on a plane without apprehension inside of your own borders.
keep toeing the line. your country is using you as pawns and a disposable resource, and you are too stupid and blind to see it.
sleep tight, asshole.
lol.
(edit: just for you, stud:
you are now reaping what you sow.
it's just a shame innocent lives are being lost over it.
but blame no one but your own establishment.)
-
Go to youtube, type in WTC7.
You can watch dozens of video clips from 911. In the minutes before 911, you hear numerous firefighters ordering people back, saying they were bringing the building down. Numerous NYPD and FDNY personnel admit it. Hell, our very own neocon kh300, a former nypd cop, admits there was a 20 second countdown. Look at it fall - classic demolition. CNN and BBC reported it had collapsed 53 MINUTES before it did. Those clips are on there too.
WTC7 is the smoking gun that someone other than those 19 guys were involved. No one is arguing that 19 assholes did some fvcked up shit and should burn in hell for it. BUT - someone wired a building with explosives - either before 911, or ON 911 as it burned (which is impossible - carrying TNT into a fire? nah).
WTC7 is why so many people doubt the official story.
haha, please find the post were i said that.. by the way, shut the fuck up. your like a broken record, the same shit over and over
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haha, please find the post were i said that.. by the way, shut the fuck up. your like a broken record, the same shit over and over
ah, chill out kh300. I haven't been squaking the 911 stuff in months. it came up and I interjected FACT. There is no official govt story on what happened to building #7. Nobody knows what happened. That's odd.
you're a cop. Biggest crime in history and you don't even ask why a building disintegrates? Come on, nobody is that stupid.
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For the first time in history, a 47 story skyscraper convert itself from standing, into 20 feet of molten steel and many tons of 100 mc concrete powder, in under 7 seconds.
Yeah, that's kinda important. No plane hit this building. Two fires in it. And this building disintegrated in 7 seconds.
Best part is - the 911 commission never mentions WTC 7. Not once. Many govt offices in there, including SEC, Secret services, fbi, etc. Someone wired their building. Under their noses? It makes zero sense. And since there is no official story that even says fire caused it, what are we supposed to think? They promised the final findigns 3 years ago. Still nothing. It's been cancelled. Why?
you are right.
the sad part is many americans refuse to look at the evidence objectively, refusing to accept the very real possibility that not only that their own government may have had knowledge of the attack before it happened, but may have engineered the entire thing themselves in order to have every fundamental freedom you enjoy guaranteed by your constitution suspended under the Patriot act, among other reasons.
it's too much to accept for these back-woods hillbillies (see: ozmo) that their own beloved country may have sacrificed the lives of 3000 innocent people to further their own agendas globally.
it is people like you, who refuse to blindly believe the lies their government tells them and question that the rest of the world would respect, if your voice of reason was not drowned out so readily by those who would live and die by what they hear on the american news agencies.
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i am not ready to blame anyone.
the nuts are the ones who think they know who did it. they obviously do not.
i would like to see a complete investigation. a lot of scientists, law enforcement, engineers, and others have come fwd with input on this building falling. Doesn't america WANT to know what happened there?
Just investigate it. THe first investigation never touched WTC7. So there is nothing wrong with looking into it. everytime a CTer points at someone and blames them, it trivializes their position and makes them look silly. They sure don't know. But since there is no official report, why not simply investigate a skyscraper collapse?
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I'm not getting into the whole debate about any of the bombers or anything... Who did what... whatever.
The reality is that we ARE in Iraq, and we're not going anywhere... The soldiers over there are doing their jobs and being heroes and that's all that matters to me.
As long as they are stuck there... I've got their back.
Anyone who says anything about a soldier can go fuck themselves.
now, this post i can agree with you 100% with.
it gives me hope for you yet.
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ah, chill out kh300. I haven't been squaking the 911 stuff in months. it came up and I interjected FACT. There is no official govt story on what happened to building #7. Nobody knows what happened. That's odd.
you're a cop. Biggest crime in history and you don't even ask why a building disintegrates? Come on, nobody is that stupid.
oh really?
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So essentially anyone who thinks about the issue critically rather than believing the official story is an idiot I guess?
No, this is NOT about whether or not the war is right or wrong... It's about supporting the people who are fighting the fight because it's their job.
Is your head really that dense?
For the first time in history, a 47 story skyscraper convert itself from standing, into 20 feet of molten steel and many tons of 100 mc concrete powder, in under 7 seconds.
Yeah, that's kinda important. No plane hit this building. Two fires in it. And this building disintegrated in 7 seconds.
Best part is - the 911 commission never mentions WTC 7. Not once. Many govt offices in there, including SEC, Secret services, fbi, etc. Someone wired their building. Under their noses? It makes zero sense. And since there is no official story that even says fire caused it, what are we supposed to think? They promised the final findigns 3 years ago. Still nothing. It's been cancelled. Why?
240... I'm not disagreeing or agreeing with you on the point you're making.
MY point is that it's not about the buildings falling down or who or what caused them.
It's about the here and now... Right now, there are soldiers that are dying in a foreign land... right or wrong doesn't matter. They are US troops and US citizens and until they come home, I support them in their desire to stay alive.
This is not about the legality or reasoning behind the fight in Iraq... It's about what is happening now.
I understand your premise, but this is not the correct thread for it... That's all.
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That's like your daughter dressing very sexy, and someone raping her and then telling her her it was a shame she was raped and then blaming the way she chose to dress as the reason she was raped. and then telling her she reaps what she sows and then telling you that you have no one to blame but yourself
lol.
i missed this.
you, are an idiot.
who made you a moderator here? seriously.
this statement is so stupid i cannot and will not even begin to show you how much of an idiot it makes you look, no matter how much enjoyment i would take in doing so.
go back to watching larry the cable guy and leave the grown up talk to people who know what they are talking about.
fucking retard.
lol.
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cool tu_holmes, I can respect that.
I support the troops 100%. I even give em discounts on sites! lol...
I know they give their lives so we can live safe, and live well. There is no nobler calling.
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No, this is NOT about whether or not the war is right or wrong... It's about supporting the people who are fighting the fight because it's their job.
Is your head really that dense?
240... I'm not disagreeing or agreeing with you on the point you're making.
MY point is that it's not about the buildings falling down or who or what caused them.
It's about the here and now... Right now, there are soldiers that are dying in a foreign land... right or wrong doesn't matter. They are US troops and US citizens and until they come home, I support them in their desire to stay alive.
This is not about the legality or reasoning behind the fight in Iraq... It's about what is happening now.
I understand your premise, but this is not the correct thread for it... That's all.
Very well put...alot of guys don't want to go....may not agree going..but we go and we'd like people to support us because they are our fellow citizens.
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All that military might and it's taking over 5 years to get a handle on a bunch of "rag heads". All that bravado, tough talk and flag waving and people are scared of a bunch of anorexic, leaf eating Muslims in caves. What a joke.
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lol.
you couldn't touch a nerve on me to save your life. i know an imbicile when i hear one. your idiocy only comes second to the fact that you know nothing of global politics- and you're a moderator here? lol.
no matter how it shapes up cupcake, im right. you're wrong. live with it.
afterall, you'll be the one living in fear the rest of your pathetic life, wondering when the next attack will come, afraid to travel abroad or even get on a plane without apprehension inside of your own borders.
keep toeing the line. your country is using you as pawns and a disposable resource, and you are too stupid and blind to see it.
sleep tight, asshole.
lol.
(edit: just for you, stud:
you are now reaping what you sow.
it's just a shame innocent lives are being lost over it.
but blame no one but your own establishment.)
I figured all you'd have to say in return was 99% ad-hom and 1% argument (if you could even call it that)
When you get the brains or the balls to come up with an argument to what i said, please feel free to post.
Until then you are what i thought you were: a dumb ass.
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lol.
i missed this.
you, are an idiot.
who made you a moderator here? seriously.
this statement is so stupid i cannot and will not even begin to show you how much of an idiot it makes you look, no matter how much enjoyment i would take in doing so.
go back to watching larry the cable guy and leave the grown up talk to people who know what they are talking about.
fucking retard.
lol.
More evidence of your inability to formulate an argument but instead just throw out ad-hom.
I'll add, "weak" to dumb ass when describing you.
Meanwhile I'll be waiting for your argument........are you up to it? Are you afraid? Or can i just expect more ad-hom?
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All that military might and it's taking over 5 years to get a handle on a bunch of "rag heads". All that bravado, tough talk and flag waving and people are scared of a bunch of anorexic, leaf eating Muslims in caves. What a joke.
That's more of a testament to the United States NOT going in there and leveling innocent civilians.
Do you disagree?
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All that military might and it's taking over 5 years to get a handle on a bunch of "rag heads". All that bravado, tough talk and flag waving and people are scared of a bunch of anorexic, leaf eating Muslims in caves. What a joke.
Have u been there..nope guess not..ever served..no..well...then shut the hell up. U'd shit ur pants.
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That's more of a testament to the United States NOT going in there and leveling innocent civilians.
Do you disagree?
Pretty much...anytime we have a shot at these guys we smoke them. They were making IEDs in their Golden Mosque last year..we found out and smoked the whole place. We do what we have to...but we generally play by the rules. Holmes is on a roll.
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No, this is NOT about whether or not the war is right or wrong... It's about supporting the people who are fighting the fight because it's their job.
It's no ones obligation to respect immoral acts. Just because you think it offensive doesn't mean he can't express his opinion. And I don't give a shit if it their "job", as they had a choice.
No doubt the service men and women are brave.. But to overlook what they're scrafice has done is foolish. It's lead to the destruction of a country, theft of natural resources and many other things.
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It's no ones obligation to respect immoral acts. Just because you think it offensive doesn't mean he can't express his opinion. And I don't give a shit if it their "job", as they had a choice.
No doubt the service men and women are brave.. But to overlook what they're scrafice has done is foolish. It's lead to the destruction of a country, theft of natural resources and many other things.
And Iraq was doing so well before we got there ::)
If you think that the armed forces are fighting for oil, you are crazy.
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They didn't have havens before? They had all of Afghanistan, they had money that wasn't frozen, they didn't have other governments looking for them like they are now, they did have Western public opinion as much against them as they are now, their network was dealt a strong blow, they have American Special Ops running missions on them all over the place...........
Tell you what.. Ask yourself this question: Are there now more terrorists than before?
Their money frozen? Why has heroin production shot up after the invasion? Aren't they using proceeds from opium harvests to combat US forces and train more terrorists?
The US' actions have urked those stupid, worthless bearded morons.. Now they've got a cause stronger than ever and they're not affraid of dying for it. Of course that's not bad for this country as it's en excuse to fuck around in that area even more so.
I payed like 3.30 a gallon to fill up my brothers car.. If it would have been 4 bucks, then I guess a few thousands civilian deaths, civil war, an isurgency, people having their lives torn apart means jackshit. ::)
::)
And western opinion means jackshit. Many in the west despise their government(expecially the younger generation) because of this war for oil.
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World demand going up caused the US to invade. That much is obvious.
And Iraq isn't better off.
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Ozmo is the only voice of reason in this thread. Camel "I'm a future suicide bomber" Jockey seems to like talking out of his ass. Not surprising considering his mouth is firmly attached to Nasser's sphincter. Inhaling all that methane must be going to his head.
You accuse me of terrorism for stating an opinion on a bbing forum?
You can't even stomach the values of your own country.. Too bad.
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If you think that the armed forces are fighting for oil, you are crazy.
HH6 is a major, I believe. He admits it's about oil. Pegg admitted it was about oil and bases.
Ask ANY military man if its about oil - and 99% will say yes. It's also what has been said by every candidate, dem and republican. It's also what's been said by Greenspan and a ton of other people in DC. It's what the world says.
Actually, it might be easier to find a list of people who say it WASN"t about oil. Aside from some guy named CARTEL here on getbig, everyone else - Bush included, last dec 14 06 in the rose garden speech) admitted the war was about controlling oil.
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It's no ones obligation to respect immoral acts. Just because you think it offensive doesn't mean he can't express his opinion. And I don't give a shit if it their "job", as they had a choice.
No doubt the service men and women are brave.. But to overlook what they're scrafice has done is foolish. It's lead to the destruction of a country, theft of natural resources and many other things.
No one is "overlooking" what has been going on... I'm very adamant about how much I think the "War in Iraq" is wrong, but I'm not going to belittle those over there fighting, no matter how much I detest it.
Apparently the issue people are having is separating the two.
I have no such issue... I can separate the fact that a soldier is over in a foreign land and being shot at and deserves my support from the actual "reason" that they are there, no matter how wrong that reason may be.
To disrespect a person in the Military for doing their job is wrong, and if people can't see that, then those people aren't really worth my time explaining it to.
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HH6 is a major, I believe. He admits it's about oil. Pegg admitted it was about oil and bases.
Ask ANY military man if its about oil - and 99% will say yes. It's also what has been said by every candidate, dem and republican. It's also what's been said by Greenspan and a ton of other people in DC. It's what the world says.
Actually, it might be easier to find a list of people who say it WASN"t about oil. Aside from some guy named CARTEL here on getbig, everyone else - Bush included, last dec 14 06 in the rose garden speech) admitted the war was about controlling oil.
You are such a twit.
The government may be in a fight to control oil, but not the individuals on the ground. They don't own the oil companies, they are fighting for much more. They are the ones fighting for honor and hope and freedom.
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I might have missed something but where is it wrong to want to secure, what amounts to the most important resource we have. If all that oil was in Sweden and Denmark we would not need to invade..they're not islamic nutbags...the middle east is a friggen mess. These people are nuts and should not be allowed to control such an important resource...forget fair for get morals....neither enter into anybodies foreign policy. The governmnets of the world have a responsibilty to their own people first. Morals and fair are lip service for UN assemblies. We have and we will continue to do whats in our strategic best interest.
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Cartel i hear what ur saying..we all sorta fight for our own thing. i fought to make sure I got all my guys home in one piece..i fought to make sure none of our cities ever glow because of these bastrads and the prime reason I fought...to make sure the damm Pats go 19-0 and Fenway park last atleast 500 years. ;D
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Cartel i hear what ur saying..we all sorta fight for our own thing. i fought to make sure I got all my guys home in one piece..i fought to make sure none of our cities ever glow because of these bastrads and the prime reason I fought...to make sure the damm Pats go 19-0 and Fenway park last atleast 500 years. ;D
That's exactly what I meant. That's why the US armed forces are the best. Because of men and women like yourself.
You are wrong though, the Pats will be 18-1 with my Cowboys beating them in the SB ;)
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I would like to get there....that means beating the Dolts. I friggen hate manning. But we have the Jags so we'll see. I guess TO will play.
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No one is "overlooking" what has been going on... I'm very adamant about how much I think the "War in Iraq" is wrong, but I'm not going to belittle those over there fighting, no matter how much I detest it.
Apparently the issue people are having is separating the two.
I have no such issue... I can separate the fact that a soldier is over in a foreign land and being shot at and deserves my support from the actual "reason" that they are there, no matter how wrong that reason may be.
To disrespect a person in the Military for doing their job is wrong, and if people can't see that, then those people aren't really worth my time explaining it to.
Then shut your trap, fool.
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That's exactly what I meant. That's why the US armed forces are the best. Because of men and women like yourself.
You are wrong though, the Pats will be 18-1 with my Cowboys beating them in the SB ;)
They'll lose to the Giants so how's that going to take place?
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I can somewhat sympthasize and understand those who have the POV that it is in the US's best interest to be in the Middle East building bases on the basis of obtaining oil whether it be by legal or illegal means. Everything in our society and economy runs on petroleum: gasoline, diesel fuel, lubricants for motors and machinery, petroleum (or paraffin) wax for products such as candy, candles, matches, and petroleum jelly, paraffin mixed in with medical products, petroleum coke(used for carbon and graphite products), asphalt for road paving, chemical manufactory, and a lot more. It certainly would be in our greater interest to ensure we have an affordable and abundant supply in order to maintain our way of life, and ultimately, ensuring we remain the strongest nation on earth.
But what happened to faith in good ole' American ingenuity? Do some of you that heavily advocate the above doubt that the US is able to cleanly and efficiently produce an alternative method of energy? Can something other than petroleum power our vehicles? military? shipping? products? We've seen the water-powered car. We've seen efficient nuclear energy. We've seen the potential for magnetism and travel. Check this baby out! The Toshiba 4S Nuclear Battery(basically, a small nuclear power plant). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toshiba_4S
I'm not advocating this particular product, but in view of the ever-rising costs of energy, the Free Market is doing what it is designed to do and making more affordable, reliable, and cleaner alternatives to petroleum.
How far would some of you go to ensure petroleum continues to pump our way? How about the ailments suffered by many of the people in Ecuador due to Chevron's alleged contamination? What about a full-scaled military assault on Iran(the fact that this is also greatly influenced by the powerful Israel lobby in Washington does not help the matter)?
Give me a viable solution here.
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You are such a twit.
The government may be in a fight to control oil, but not the individuals on the ground. They don't own the oil companies, they are fighting for much more. They are the ones fighting for honor and hope and freedom.
They all fight for their own reasons.
Some do it for college $. Some do it to have a place to live. Some do it because they hate arabs. Some do it for a stronger america.
And yes, some do it for "honor and hope and freedom".
IMO, only a 'twit' would believe that he knows the sole reason why they fight.
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They all fight for their own reasons.
Some do it for college $. Some do it to have a place to live. Some do it because they hate arabs. Some do it for a stronger america.
And yes, some do it for "honor and hope and freedom".
IMO, only a 'twit' would believe that he knows the sole reason why they fight.
Gosh, I guess I was being too general.
I guess we are both twits.
They'll lose to the Giants so how's that going to take place?
That may be the case. I'm not looking forward to that game at all.
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Honestly, if I were president...i would see what are alternates are and supposing that we have a viable one..it would be mandated as soon as possible. then i'd announce it to the world. The arabs can go back to fighting over dirt. i'm not sure how they will feed themselves but have at it.
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The future is Nuclear and Hydrogen.
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Tell you what.. Ask yourself this question: Are there now more terrorists than before?
Are there?
Do you have stats?
Are you privy all the cells and numbers?
Is OBL on your myspace friends list and does he tell you? ;)
Is AQ stronger or weaker?
Their money frozen? Why has heroin production shot up after the invasion? Aren't they using proceeds from opium harvests to combat US forces and train more terrorists?
Are they? I think we are responsible for increased heroin production, not them. i think that's how we got the Warlords of the region's support. AQ had free roam in Afghanistan, but not now.
The US' actions have urked those stupid, worthless bearded morons.. Now they've got a cause stronger than ever and they're not affraid of dying for it. Of course that's not bad for this country as it's en excuse to fuck around in that area even more so.
Nothing is different in that sense, they hated us before and hate us now.
I payed like 3.30 a gallon to fill up my brothers car.. If it would have been 4 bucks, then I guess a few thousands civilian deaths, civil war, an isurgency, people having their lives torn apart means jackshit. ::)
::)
My point is about them, not us. Aside from that mis cue on your part, Gas was destined to go up anyway at some point and i believe it's only been the excuse oil companies have it go up as much as it has.
And western opinion means jackshit. Many in the west despise their government(expecially the younger generation) because of this war for oil.
All opinion means jack shit, until the representatives cannot ignore the voice of the people or are removed. (nam) except in dictatorships
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oz, the terrorist numbers have risen almost 500% by our estimates.
there were 15k insurgents in 2003, and there are something like 70k today.
There was a thread on here about a month ago - berserker posted the stats from the us govt.
anyone have the link?
yes, insurgents have gone up signifiantly, as they are drawn from all over the region to fight. Is this so we can fight them there and not here? (when 99.999% of them will never own a passport)? I dunno.
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Then shut your trap, fool.
The only person who looks like a fool in this conversation is you...
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oz, the terrorist numbers have risen almost 500% by our estimates.
there were 15k insurgents in 2003, and there are something like 70k today.
There was a thread on here about a month ago - berserker posted the stats from the us govt.
anyone have the link?
yes, insurgents have gone up signifiantly, as they are drawn from all over the region to fight. Is this so we can fight them there and not here? (when 99.999% of them will never own a passport)? I dunno.
Is that as a result of 9/11 or the iraq war?
Mt point is that the Iraq war increased terrorism. Not 9/11. Had we kept out eye on the target we might have just severly damged AQ in those mountians, and maybe even got OBL. But we pulled out to invade Iraq.
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Hahahahaha, what a disrecpectful paranoid piece of shit. :-X
Dear judge Alex 23
He never called them heroes from a personal standpoint. He just confirmed the fact that the defenition of a "hero" opens for calling the 911 terrorists "heroes" if one believes the ideal they fought for were worth it. His post is of a technical nature, and the point it contains is real. The 2 sub parts of a "hero" = acting from a ideal worth fighting for, and certain personal characteristics like willingness to die for this ideal via uberman courage.
Thus, from a terrorist point of view (meaning: unintelligent monkeys), these people were heroes, because the terrorists themselves embrace the ideal.
For us from the west (us with rational brainpower), these people = the scum of the earth.
Thank you judge. Lawyer debussey now steps down.
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The only person who looks like a fool in this conversation is you...
No, you.
MattC was pointing out the obvious, and if that's offensive to you then tough luck. It's sickening to me that some people can't stomach their own values, yet are critical of others. ::) MattC is exercising his right to free speech. He has been called so many things by people who can't debate the issue. You tried atleast and didn't resort to petty insults(unlike Captian American himself Alex23, and many of his cronies).
People should be allowed to speak their minds. And no, I don't give a fuck if you were emotionally touched after seeing some guy with his leg torn off in Walter Ried hospital.
Plus you've had two US servicemen openly admit that the war = about oil.. hahaha Nail in the coffin.
I respect Headhunter ALOT. However, I wouldn't go out of my way to defend him if someone called him out on his career. Harsh, but I don't think he gives a shit.
The people who're like "OMG YOU QUESTION THE US' ACTIONS YOU'RE A TERRORIST!" piss me off. They're so emotionally driven that they fail to see the issue for what it is.
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Is that as a result of 9/11 or the iraq war?
Mt point is that the Iraq war increased terrorism. Not 9/11. Had we kept out eye on the target we might have just severly damged AQ in those mountians, and maybe even got OBL. But we pulled out to invade Iraq.
That was my point too.. ::)
OBL means jackshit.. Kill him and there will be like 1000 other nutters to take his place. The seed has been set and the US' best bet would to get the fuck out of Iraq after setting up a puppet regime that'd still be able to milk that vital black gold.
This terrorism thing has grown so much that there might not be a solution.. :-\ Couple some straightforward faith with lack of education and you have a chaos.
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No, you.
MattC was pointing out the obvious, and if that's offensive to you then tough luck. It's sickening to me that some people can't stomach their own values, yet are critical of others. ::) MattC is exercising his right to free speech. He has been called so many things by people who can't debate the issue. You tried atleast and didn't resort to petty insults(unlike Captian American himself Alex23, and many of his cronies).
People should be allowed to speak their minds. And no, I don't give a fuck if you were emotionally touched after seeing some guy with his leg torn off in Walter Ried hospital.
Plus you've had two US servicemen openly admit that the war = about oil.. hahaha Nail in the coffin.
I respect Headhunter ALOT. However, I wouldn't go out of my way to defend him if someone called him out on his career. Harsh, but I don't think he gives a shit.
The people who're like "OMG YOU QUESTION THE US' ACTIONS YOU'RE A TERRORIST!" piss me off. They're so emotionally driven that they fail to see the issue for what it is.
See here's where you look foolish... How many times do I have to explain to you that this conversation is not about whether or not the War is right or wrong.
I know it's wrong... I hate it.
The conversation is about disrespecting a Soldier... Any Soldier.
Giving a soldier respect and caring about their welfare and lives has NOTHING to do with whether or not the war is right or wrong.
Serious question.
Are you simply unable to understand that fact?
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Giving a soldier respect and caring about their welfare and lives has NOTHING to do with whether or not the war is right or wrong.
Serious question.
Are you simply unable to understand that fact?
Of course I care about them, and I bet MattC does as well.
But man, it's not as though bringing up the war slaps them in the face.. It's quite harmless. If they feel disrespected, then they have my apology, but I still support MattC's views.
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I don't care...but my defense of what I do would come off as ridiculously arrogant..best left unsaid. Holmes hasa good point. My worry is that after we leave Iraq, our militray will need a major overhaul...the cash has to be there....America has no choice. There will be more 911's. As far as figting em there as opposed to here. There is a finite amount of folks that can do a 911...use nukes/bio/gas..plan/equip/move and carry out complex operations. Many are involved in Iraq and we are killing them. Yes there are more insurgents..but the average asshole with an AK cannot shave his beard..learn english and blow up a shopping mall. AQ is fully invested in Iraq and loosing...They are otherwise occupied and cannot plan ops here and there. Its not a question of money its a question of men and they don't have the folks.
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Of course I care about them, and I bet MattC does as well.
But man, it's not as though bringing up the war slaps them in the face.. It's quite harmless. If they feel disrespected, then they have my apology, but I still support MattC's views.
No one has an issue with them bring up the war... Did you see what MattC wrote?
They lost their lives standing up for a cause which they believed was true and genuine. One which they sincerely thought would make the world a better place. Does that make them heroes? Or is it better to look beyond that and look at the facts...
My point is that the above quote shows that he's not separating the troops from the war... There is a difference between the two... Disagree if you want, but I do believe this is a slap in the face to the troops themselves...
I know the war is wrong... you know it's wrong, but that doesn't mean that I'm going to say anything negative about the troops when discussing the subject of "the war".
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damn guys i've had my usual nightcap of absolut and diet coke..
Maybe we can resume insulting each other tommorow? No sunday though as I'll be geared for the giants and cowboys. Speaking of which, is it actually on sunday? What time? Too lazy to check.
I hope Jessica Simpson flashes her panties for the troops and Romo, who'll be distracted and throw a few ints..
Cheers!
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Can someone name a war that is right?
People keep saying this war is wrong. But what is a right war?
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It might not be right but war is the natural state of man...its what we're really good at and I don't see it stopping any time soon.
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Hahahahaha, what a disrecpectful paranoid piece of shit. :-X
Hmmm. I think Matt is a bit more thoughtful than that smear. But what is up with you and the knee-jerk jingoism, lately. You're no idiot. Why are you playing the the O'Reilly neo-conservative super patriot, lately? Scared to be smeared yourself, so you are attacking first? Rings hollow coming from you. ???
Here's a suitable quote for you:
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Yeah but they had great uniforms....
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Yes, exactly. I think the 9.11 terrorists (if the official story is true) are disgusting murderers. I couldn't give a fuck if their beliefs and values would make them feel otherwise. If you kill innocent people, you are a piece of shit in my book, regardless of what you believe in. But I can't call them cowards - it takes a lot of balls to be willing to die for something you believe in. I would call them assholes or psychos, and cowardly in that they killed so many innocent people, but not cowardly in that they were willing to die for something they believed in.
I seem to recall a late night talk show host getting canned for daring to voice just such an opinion.
;D
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They are cowards because they don't believe in death as a total finality. Radical Islamists actually claim to know that there is a much better life that awaits them. Not comparable to Christians believing in heaven. Much different.
Ending your life when you thing you're stepping through a door to a higher state is not cowardly. It's like children anxious to fall asleep the night before Christmas so they can open their toys.
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Simple:
We all have the power to choose our actions
The USA is responsible for it's actions with-in the realm of how it contributed to the motivation for those 19 hijackers. but they are not responsible or to blame for the action itself.
That action was a choice made by 19 fanatics.
To say the USA is responsible is like saying:
If you don't do "x" then i'll kill innocnet people and it will be your fault.
that's classic criminal mentality.
Do you mean like when they offered the Taliban roads paved with gold for that pipeline, or when they demanded the gov of Afghanistan turn him over immediately or they were going to blast it into the middle ages. Wasn't it spun in the context that it was the Afghans own fault 'cause all they had to do was turn him over? Wasn't it spun that the invasion of Iraq was Saddam's own fault, ...'cause all he had to do was turn over the WMD's that Rummy knew were there? You know, ...the ones whose precise locations were known (hidden in Tikrit, and north, south, east & west of there) or boms would rain down upon them? Baghdad would be "shocked & awed" ::) Or like when they demanded Vietnam do what it wanted, ...or even like when they demanded Hussein comply? Is that what you mean?
I guess Iraq doesn't count because Hussein actually did comply, ...but they went in anyway.
Are these examples of the classic criminal mentality you're talking about?
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It might not be right but war is the natural state of man...its what we're really good at and I don't see it stopping any time soon.
That is exactly what I mean. I guess a "right" war for some of these idiots would mean we should only retaliate if we get attacked on our soil.
If that ever happened, it would be too late. We would lose massive amounts of civilians.
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This terrorism thing has grown so much that there might not be a solution.. :-\ Couple some straightforward faith with lack of education and you have a chaos.
Terrorism has grown becuase of the worse decision in US history(Iraq war), not becuase of 9/11. Had we completed our mission in the tora bora mountains it would have took them even longer to recover.
I'm not saying getting OBL would have ended anything.
Now look at their situation becuase of 9/11, they have 150,000 US troops in the middle east fighting them where they didn't have that before. So tell me how their situation is better because of 9/11. They have 150,000 US troops in "their ::)" land!
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Do you mean like when they offered the Taliban roads paved with gold for that pipeline, or when they demanded the gov of Afghanistan turn him over immediately or they were going to blast it into the middle ages. Wasn't it spun in the context that it was the Afghans own fault 'cause all they had to do was turn him over? Wasn't it spun that the invasion of Iraq was Saddam's own fault, ...'cause all he had to do was turn over the WMD's that Rummy knew were there? You know, ...the ones whose precise locations were known (hidden in Tikrit, and north, south, east & west of there) or boms would rain down upon them? Baghdad would be "shocked & awed" ::) Or like when they demanded Vietnam do what it wanted, ...or even like when they demanded Hussein comply? Is that what you mean?
I guess Iraq doesn't count because Hussein actually did comply, ...but they went in anyway.
Are these examples of the classic criminal mentality you're talking about?
Re-read the other posts of mine Jag and keep in mind the point I'm making on the issue i am talking about.
If you want to play your bash America game you can bring up your issues here or on another thread but your response is not related to what I'm talking about in that America did not cause 19 hijackers to ram planes full of passengers into buildings. They made that choice all by themselves.
Think about it, would you accept the blame after being raped becuase you dressed a certain way?
America needs to be accountable for the part it played in motivating hatred. But those who committed the crime are fully accountable for choosing to act on those crimes by killing innocent people.
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Terrorism has grown becuase of the worse decision in US history(Iraq war), not becuase of 9/11. Had we completed our mission in the tora bora mountains it would have took them even longer to recover.
Why do you believe we left the north road out of Tora unbombed?
Then we pulled all afghan troops from it, and didn't move any US forces there.
Then a 1000 vehicle envoy 'escaped' one night and allowed taliban leadership to get away.
It's easy to chalk it up to a mistake... but all the top generals and media heads were on TV yelling "Bomb the north road! It's osama's only escape!"
How would the best military in history "accidentally" forget to guard an obvious escape route, then "not notice" 1000 cars escaping and driving to jalalabad and the pashtun region, where many were flown to Egypt?
I think this goes beyond silly CTs and beyond incompetence. Mistakes of this degree don't happen. Was it intentional to allow osama to escape to justify setting up longterm in afghanistan, pakistan, and later, iraq? Hmmmm
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Why do you believe we left the north road out of Tora unbombed?
Then we pulled all afghan troops from it, and didn't move any US forces there.
Then a 1000 vehicle envoy 'escaped' one night and allowed taliban leadership to get away.
It's easy to chalk it up to a mistake... but all the top generals and media heads were on TV yelling "Bomb the north road! It's osama's only escape!"
How would the best military in history "accidentally" forget to guard an obvious escape route, then "not notice" 1000 cars escaping and driving to jalalabad and the pashtun region, where many were flown to Egypt?
I think this goes beyond silly CTs and beyond incompetence. Mistakes of this degree don't happen. Was it intentional to allow osama to escape to justify setting up longterm in afghanistan, pakistan, and later, iraq? Hmmmm
Just to be clear, the biggest mistake in US history was invading Iraq.
As far as Tora Bora, who knows? I know what it looks like. I do believe it was halted on purpose. But you and i don't have all the information.
Also, mistakes to this degree do happen.
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Just to be clear, the biggest mistake in US history was invading Iraq.
As far as Tora Bora, who knows? I know what it looks like. I do believe it was halted on purpose. But you and i don't have all the information.
Also, mistakes to this degree do happen.
Also, mistakes to this degree do happen.
The number one wanted man in the world.
Pinpointed and picked up giving orders on the radio.
We give an escape route.
We don't notice 1000 cars leaving one night.
I am not gullible enough to believe 1000 cars escaped via an unguarded/unbombed route without us noticing. And, since everyone they interviewed on MSNBC, FOX, CNN, and others were all going apeshit about the unguarded northern route BEFORE he escaped, it's safe to say they knew it was vulnerable.
Hey, if the bigger goal was Iraq, then yeah, they had to let him escape, right? Nobody would have supported invading iraq if we got osama in 2 months.
and IMO, invading iraq was a good move in the bigger scheme of things. contorl all the oil, keep it in dollars. all those new bases.
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The number one wanted man in the world.
Pinpointed and picked up giving orders on the radio.
We give an escape route.
We don't notice 1000 cars leaving one night.
I am not gullible enough to believe 1000 cars escaped via an unguarded/unbombed route without us noticing. And, since everyone they interviewed on MSNBC, FOX, CNN, and others were all going apeshit about the unguarded northern route BEFORE he escaped, it's safe to say they knew it was vulnerable.
Hey, if the bigger goal was Iraq, then yeah, they had to let him escape, right? Nobody would have supported invading iraq if we got osama in 2 months.
and IMO, invading iraq was a good move in the bigger scheme of things. contorl all the oil, keep it in dollars. all those new bases.
Like i said earlier, we don't have all the info.
Here's a possibility off the top of my head:
- We didn't have the ground assets to block off the escape route and we didn't to use air to slaughter the 1000 vehicles escaping (like from Kuwait in 1st gulf war) that would have surely contained many women and children in it, thus causing world public opinion to sway agaisnt us and put us in an even poorer position to invade Iraq making the USA look like butchers.
-
I will say it now and say it again..u can debate all u want..especially iraq..afghanistan is a waaaaaaaaay different animal. I don't know how many chopper rides i though would end smacked into the side of mountains. I have walked some of Tora Bora..is friggen hell. Everything is harder there. Radios cut out, helo's can't catch the air. Dust...plus because of all the political bullshit.