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Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: Straw Man on February 29, 2008, 09:33:51 AM
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http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080228/BLOG2501/80228087/1071/OPINION03
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article3419840.ece
Barb Arrigo
Can you spare $10,000 for the war?
If a new book is right, and if my math is right, each of us 300 million Americans faces a bill for about $10,000 to cover the immediate costs and some of the longer term costs of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.
The book comes out Friday. It is “The Three Trillion Dollar War” by Joseph Stiglitz, who is a Nobel Prize-winning economist. Here’s a McClatchy News Bureau’s story about the book:
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/iraq/story/28891.html
Stiglitz and his co-author arrive at their figure by adding operational costs plus other factors. He also assigns a value to the lives cut short (3,973 troop deaths in Iraq as of today, according to the AP count). So the bill may not be entirely due in the form of taxes. But the estimate also skips some things that probably should be included. Here’s one part of the McClatchy report:
“When other factors are added — such as interest on debt, future borrowing for war expenses, the cost of a continued military presence in Iraq and lifetime health-care and counseling for veterans — they think that the wars' costs range from $5 trillion to $7 trillion
When does the cost of war become an issue for you?
I certainly don’t think the cost of war should be the sole or even a major determinant in the decision (although it was not helpful that the administration so badly underestimated Iraq costs five years ago). But I do think it’s bad policy to go deeply into debt at the same time and assume somehow everything will work out in the future. Americans should be making some sacrifices at home, too.
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I'm not worried.
The Iraqi oil revenues should kick-in any day now and pay for the liberation.
That's what the president said.
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I know you're being sarcastic but I am starting to get really worried.
We MUST get out of Iraq or we're going to be (if not already) is such a financial bind that we may never fully recover for a generation or more, if ever.
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I know you're being sarcastic but I am starting to get really worried.
We MUST get out of Iraq or we're going to be (if not already) is such a financial bind that we may never fully recover for a generation or more, if ever.
Go to the polls, and volunteer to drive people to the polls. We can vote ourselves out of the unfolding decline and fall of the American Empire.
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I'm not worried.
The Iraqi oil revenues should kick-in any day now and pay for the liberation.
That's what the president said.
i actually believe him on this.
Those oil revenues are huge. Iraq has 50 to 75 tril in saleable oil. We have dibs on 80% of that.
In ten years, the war will have been a good investment. ROI will be great. That ignores the legality and loss of life, but in a strictly business sense, it will have been worth it to the businessmen in charge.
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i actually believe him on this.
Those oil revenues are huge. Iraq has 50 to 75 tril in saleable oil. We have dibs on 80% of that.
In ten years, the war will have been a good investment. ROI will be great. That ignores the legality and loss of life, but in a strictly business sense, it will have been worth it to the businessmen in charge.
We don't have "dibs" on shit.
That's Iraqi oil and they can do whatever they want
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I'm not worried.
The Iraqi oil revenues should kick-in any day now and pay for the liberation.
That's what the president said.
LOL and you can always believe the President, right? ;)
I know you're being sarcastic but I am starting to get really worried.
We MUST get out of Iraq or we're going to be (if not already) is such a financial bind that we may never fully recover for a generation or more, if ever.
I don't like using language that is fear mongering, I still believe people are oblivious to what is happening. Once it starts to affect them at a local level, then it will be too late.
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We don't have "dibs" on shit.
hahaha ;D
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i actually believe him on this.
Those oil revenues are huge. Iraq has 50 to 75 tril in saleable oil. We have dibs on 80% of that.
In ten years, the war will have been a good investment. ROI will be great. That ignores the legality and loss of life, but in a strictly business sense, it will have been worth it to the businessmen in charge.
The problem with this is that you are assuming the oil companies will willingly part with one thin dime of their profits for the general public's benefit.
I don't see that happening.
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We don't have "dibs" on shit.
That's Iraqi oil and they can do whatever they want
Sorry, but contractually, regardless of what their future admins or our future admins decide, that nation has signed over 80% of oil exploration rights to the US of A.
Obama can't change it, and AlMaliki's successor one day cannot change it.
bases are there to ensure it all runs smoothly. You can't ask a guy to leave when ten of his friends are in your living room cleaning their guns, now can you? ;)
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The problem with this is that you are assuming the oil companies will willingly part with one thin dime of their profits for the general public's benefit.
You're completely right here. The greedy SOBs will do nothing to help anyone.
But...
Those oil companies are paying record taxes as well, even with all the brekas they're getting. .80 times 50 tril in oil is a lot of oil. And it's all kept in dollars, ensuring dollar stays relevant. And it is piped out of US ports, ensuring china cannot grow as fast as she wants to. And eventually it will be hte oil companies using this $ to fund alternative energies - they're not against it, they just want to be running it when fossil fuels run out.
We didn't steal the oil. We stole drilling and selling control of the oil.
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Sorry, but contractually, regardless of what their future admins or our future admins decide, that nation has signed over 80% of oil exploration rights to the US of A.
Obama can't change it, and AlMaliki's successor one day cannot change it.
bases are there to ensure it all runs smoothly. You can't ask a guy to leave when ten of his friends are in your living room cleaning their guns, now can you? ;)
1. The Iraqi Hydrocarbon law has not been passed.
2. Laws don't mean shit, especially in the middle east
3. The US Govt is not in the Oil biz and not one fucking penny will ever come back to the US Treasury.
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i agree the war was based on a lie.
But...
we're there now. We've spent the $ - the initial investment - and leaving now would mean it's a total loss. At least now the oil stays in dollars, we won't have any fuel shortage here, and we can all look in the mirror and say the majority of people bought the lie hook, line, and sinker.
They told us they would do this. We elected them.
PNAC 2000 - months before the election - Cheney, rummy, wolfy, bolton, jeb, and crew put their plan in writing. it's been executed flawlessly. They said they'd do it, we gave them the keys, and they did it. In ten years, we will be stronger because of it. We're just mad we were lied to about that silly WMD story.
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1. The Iraqi Hydrocarbon law has not been passed.
2. Laws don't mean shit, especially in the middle east
3. The US Govt is not in the Oil biz and not one fucking penny will ever come back to the US Treasury.
1. I thought it had - my mistake if I'm wrong - link? Anyway, it will. We'll twist that arm.
2. Which is why we have two dozen bases in iraq and a green zone in their capital city.
3. In tax dollars, the $ will come back to our treasury. Exxon mobil paid $30 bil in taxes last year, I believe.
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1. I thought it had - my mistake if I'm wrong - link? Anyway, it will. We'll twist that arm.
2. Which is why we have two dozen bases in iraq and a green zone in their capital city.
3. In tax dollars, the $ will come back to our treasury. Exxon mobil paid $30 bil in taxes last year, I believe.
1. bits and pieces have been passed but not the part that Bush and his cronies care about (which enriches them and not the US Treasury)
2. We can't afford to maintain an occupation
3. Tax dollars from oil companies will NEVER come close to paying back our investment
4. Laws don't matter because the current Iraqi govt. have no true authority or control in their own country.
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Dude,
If haliburton is pumping the oil along US-built pipelines into US ships which takes it to US refineries, which ships it to US gas stations to be sold in US dollars...
and Iraq decides to fck with any step of this process...
what do you suppose people in our green zone - located a few miles from their presidential mansion - will do?
Yes, we will smack the shit out of them. We guard the pipeline. they can deal with the shit in the cities.
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Hilary admitted - we're staying in Iraq because that's where the oil is.
Bush says we aren't leaving because terrorists would seize control of oil assets.
Obama is playing ball too, promising to have a 'presence' there thru his term.
nothign will change. we're just pissing in the wind arguing about it.
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Dude,
If haliburton is pumping the oil along US-built pipelines into US ships which takes it to US refineries, which ships it to US gas stations to be sold in US dollars...
and Iraq decides to fck with any step of this process...
what do you suppose people in our green zone - located a few miles from their presidential mansion - will do?
Yes, we will smack the shit out of them. We guard the pipeline. they can deal with the shit in the cities.
None of that puts $$$ back in the US Treasury
Also, none of that seems to be happening any time soon.
The companies that will benefit are in no hurry to flood the market with oil (lowering the price and their profits).
None of this matters if the governmet of Iraq ever consolidates power and decides it wants the US out of their country.
BTW - in your best case scenario we get a few billion back in taxes on a few TRILLION in investment
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You're completely right here. The greedy SOBs will do nothing to help anyone.
But...
Those oil companies are paying record taxes as well, even with all the brekas they're getting. .80 times 50 tril in oil is a lot of oil. And it's all kept in dollars, ensuring dollar stays relevant. And it is piped out of US ports, ensuring china cannot grow as fast as she wants to. And eventually it will be hte oil companies using this $ to fund alternative energies - they're not against it, they just want to be running it when fossil fuels run out.
We didn't steal the oil. We stole drilling and selling control of the oil.
I'm not sure we can count on that tax dollar support: U.S. oil and gas companies have 882 subsidiaries in tax haven countries. http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/4/5332
The Greatest Rip-Off In Texas - Oil Companies Haven't Paid Their Taxes In Years http://ezinearticles.com/?The-Greatest-Rip-Off-In-Texas-Oil-Companies-Havent-Paid-Their-Taxes-In-Years&id=790685
The oil business is already one the most tax subsidized businesses in the US.
If the US pushes them to pay taxes on their operations, they can just incorporate in another country or use one of their shell companies to avoid taxation.
I have zero faith in big business to willingly do anything requiring sacrifice for the USA's general good. Our history really bears out that notion.
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Decker - excellent points
240 - I hope I'm wrong and you're right but I'm just not as optimistic as you are.
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Decker - excellent points
240 - I hope I'm wrong and you're right but I'm just not as optimistic as you are.
Thanks. It sort of sucks that we have to discuss the constant scamming of this administration.
You know, most of the real horror stories won't come out until after Bush is out of office...just like it was with Reagan.
The long-term damage will make almost any american cringe.
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I could very well be wrong. My only hope is that they're doing what's best for the longterm,, while it's going to suck in the short term. Historically, that has been the case. FDR was unpopular in his day, but we're probably glad he did the japanese oil embargo, let pearl harbor happen, then ran over hitler and put the wheels in motion to set up shop in many countries in the world - we live better today because of it.
With the info transparency we have now, FDR might have been exposed as bush has. Back then, you believed what your radio told you.
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Thanks. It sort of sucks that we have to discuss the constant scamming of this administration.
You know, most of the real horror stories won't come out until after Bush is out of office...just like it was with Reagan.
The long-term damage will make almost any american cringe.
yes and most will be oblivious or will want to re-write history to align it with their own personal beliefs.
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I could very well be wrong. My only hope is that they're doing what's best for the longterm,, while it's going to suck in the short term. Historically, that has been the case. FDR was unpopular in his day, but we're probably glad he did the japanese oil embargo, let pearl harbor happen, then ran over hitler and put the wheels in motion to set up shop in many countries in the world - we live better today because of it.
With the info transparency we have now, FDR might have been exposed as bush has. Back then, you believed what your radio told you.
240 - I think you're making the assumption that the Bush & Co actually care about the current or long term health of this country.
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240 - I think you're making the assumption that the Bush & Co actually care about the current or long term health of this country.
I believe they do.
Really, even though they serve big business, I think they have our LT interest in mind.
A $3T war to ensure china doesn't buy $50-75 til of oil... many businessmen would take that.
Bush and cheney were very rich before taking office, so I can't believe they did it for the money. Cheney served in govt his whole life, adn made $36M the year before he entered office, as CEo of halib. most men would have retired and drank fruity drinks and lived the good life. Instead, he enters the most stressful job in the world, to be hated by the world, and for what? He believes in it.
Now there are connections - business and govt - that are just going to remain there. They keep each other alive, and keep the country functioning. A recession hurts walmart as much as it hurts anyone. Big Biz doesn't want one.
I think Bush and Co really do care about what is best for the USA longterm. We're about to have a recession, but will we recover? Yes. Will we be stronger with that giant base and oil tap in themiddle east? heck yes.
know that I spent 18 months complaining about it before I came to the realization I'm at now. I admit it was lies, and greed and exploitation. But I think in the long run, we will be stronger, if only because these men spent their lives in govt, and the goal of govt is always a stronger USA, and it's always worked out that way.
I could be wrong, who knows.
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I believe they do.
that's where we part ways.
I believe they are only here to loot the US Treasury for the benefit of themselves and their cronies and truly don't care about the consequences to our country.
cynical? yes, but I believe it's accurate
Remember this is the family (as you know) that has purchased land in Paraguay and you yourself have speculated that Bush will soon relocate there
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yes. i believe cheney will be in dubai with haliburton too.
however, i think it's a case of "once they find out all the 911 evidence"...
after all, a great deal of it was sealed for 2009.
they did it for a greater purpose, sure. I don't know where you stand on the 911 issue... i was a pure bush cronie for 5 years, and dole/bush1 before then. Took a lot to convince me of it.
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yes. i believe cheney will be in dubai with haliburton too.
however, i think it's a case of "once they find out all the 911 evidence"...
after all, a great deal of it was sealed for 2009.
they did it for a greater purpose, sure. I don't know where you stand on the 911 issue... i was a pure bush cronie for 5 years, and dole/bush1 before then. Took a lot to convince me of it.
Keep in mind that Bush/Cheney know ALL their crimes against this country.
The economic ones are (unfortunately) much more damaging that 911
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Mr. Intestone/The Coach still thinks it's about WMD's.. ::) ::)
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All I have to say is RON PAUL has talked about leaving Iraq and how to save the dollar longer then people can remember and everyone laughed at himeven though he has been proven right time after time.
People STILL don't listen, doomed to keep making the same fuck ups that are gonna keep hurting us, in some way shape or form.
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240. Youre faith in bush/cheney will do you in. You have seen in this thread that oil rights will not be a promise kept, most likely.
Iraqis could get support of other countries to throw us out knowing in the near future we are a sitting duck drained of our finances and low on morale, from all the isuues we will be dealing with when bush leaves.
How will we fight another war when russia convinces china not to borrow us any more money?? We cant even pay for this tax credit thing bush just thought up.
Lets say Iraq honors its agreement wioth 40% as Neurotoxin has brought out. They will setup corps in other countries and move to paraguay or somewhere.
Why would they leave us "Hanging" this time?? I sense because there is a bigger picture now of equalizing countries wealth by creating the NWO.....Robin Hood is here to save the day and they think world peace will be near at hand. No reason to save America this time. Let it crash and have the UN or other Give us food..........Its just different this time.
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i agree the war was based on a lie.
But...
we're there now. We've spent the $ - the initial investment - and leaving now would mean it's a total loss.[...]
We? You haven't lost a dime! It's the US government that is taking a hit... well, not really, because they get to print as much money as they want... the armament industry makes a "killing" when a republican MOFO makes it to the WH... Halliburton has made a killing.
It's your kids and mine that will be paying a lot more because of the decisions WE made. They, our kids, will be paying $ 8.00/gallon of gas, $ 5.00 for milk... et cetera.
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Why would they leave us "Hanging" this time?? I sense because there is a bigger picture now of equalizing countries wealth by creating the NWO.....Robin Hood is here to save the day and they think world peace will be near at hand. No reason to save America this time. Let it crash and have the UN or other Give us food..........Its just different this time.
Every other time in history before, when the US govt has done things like this, it's always left us stronger and been done for the good of 300 mil. people.
I truly think it's the same here. Cheney and rummy and others served the country their whole lives - i highly doubt they just decided in 2001 to crash the place. I think they were willing to take the hit initially for a decade or 2 in the PR dept, in order to fulfill longterm US goals. I really do. Everything they've done in their lives was about furthering US interests.
if there is a NWo apect, as pnac clearly defines, its the USA in teh driving seat, and its really more of a global parntership deal, with the US running the show. It's the reality of such a connected world.
So yeah, I dont like being lied to, but I do believe they are doing it for our best interest. We're just living thru the initial suckiness of it all.
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Every other time in history before, when the US govt has done things like this, it's always left us stronger and been done for the good of 300 mil. people.
How can attacking a sovereign country be "for the good" of all Americans? For whose good? Yours? Mine? Furthermore, if you consider yourself a human being, please explain how the economic benefit of 300 million people (which is bullshit, because it's usually a handfull of people who benefit the most) supercedes the right to exist of an entire population (Iraq, Vietnam, Nicaragua, etc.)? I mean, we're getting to the point that our discourse now sounds pseudo-fascist. Can't hide it now!
I truly think it's the same here. Cheney and rummy and others served the country their whole lives - i highly doubt they just decided in 2001 to crash the place. I think they were willing to take the hit initially for a decade or 2 in the PR dept, in order to fulfill longterm US goals. I really do. Everything they've done in their lives was about furthering US interests.
Right, right. You're part of the crowd that believes that corporations, and those who run them, have a higher motive than to create profit for their shareholders, and that is to safeguard the economic interests of all Americans by ordering American troops to invade a sovereign country and murder close to 100,000 individuals. Right, right. Furthermore, you go on to say that they've spent their lives furthering US interests. HOW?!
You see, reality tells me otherwise. When time came to put together a ticket, on the repugnant side, the powers-that-be chose an individual devoid of the capability for intelectual thinking (Bush) and an ex-Big Oil CEO. This was not by chance. While the monkey was pranced around for all to see and awe at talking about values and how our country is the most democratic (even though we're a republic) state in the history of mankind (never mind slavery or the slaughter of Native Americans,) the other individual, Cheney was hard at work putting together an invasion in order to STEAL someone else's resources in the name of some Americans (I guess you include yourself in that group, I sure as hell don't).
The invasion was carried out and Americans are paying almost $ 4.00 per gallon (almost $4.00 for milk, $ 2.00 for a fucking loaf of bread!, etc.) and I'm still sitting here trying to put together the pieces of the puzzle, trying to see your point of view. And I can't. The sole motivator for the Cheney types is self preservation, benefit and power. Their "interest" in serving their country is such as long as it coincides with their self interest, meaning their company making record profits (which they are nowadays, as opposed to the US government). As soon as both interest take a different route, MAKE NO MISTAKE, they will drop your ass faster than you can say "I'm stupid".
if there is a NWo apect, as pnac clearly defines, its the USA in teh driving seat, and its really more of a global parntership deal, with the US running the show. It's the reality of such a connected world.
So yeah, I dont like being lied to, but I do believe they are doing it for our best interest. We're just living thru the initial suckiness of it all.
And you don't see anything wrong with your last statement? ??? :o
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240. Youre faith in bush/cheney will do you in. You have seen in this thread that oil rights will not be a promise kept, most likely.
Iraqis could get support of other countries to throw us out knowing in the near future we are a sitting duck drained of our finances and low on morale, from all the isuues we will be dealing with when bush leaves.
How will we fight another war when russia convinces china not to borrow us any more money?? We cant even pay for this tax credit thing bush just thought up.
Lets say Iraq honors its agreement wioth 40% as Neurotoxin has brought out. They will setup corps in other countries and move to paraguay or somewhere.
Why would they leave us "Hanging" this time?? I sense because there is a bigger picture now of equalizing countries wealth by creating the NWO.....Robin Hood is here to save the day and they think world peace will be near at hand. No reason to save America this time. Let it crash and have the UN or other Give us food..........Its just different this time.
Look in bold, what I wrote about other countries teaming up with Iraq and knocking us out of the oil loophole.....!!!!
Now its Iran befriending Iraq and the shiites!!! Russia has Irans back and Hates the USA......Its only gonna get better from here!! :o