Getbig.com: American Bodybuilding, Fitness and Figure
Getbig Main Boards => Gossip & Opinions => Topic started by: HowieW on March 17, 2008, 11:32:38 AM
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:-\ The most lame, stupid and retarded myth is the one that says , all you need is the right "secret/magic cycle" and you can be a top pro. :-\
Granted, I am against much of the extreme drug use we have in bodybuilding for legal and health reasons.
However, the thing that bugs me the most about drugs is how so many wannabe pros use "drugs" as the reason why they have yet to win a major show or go pro.
The basic truth is that drugs can turn a really good, gifted physique into a great one.
If you lack the genetics , training work ethic or diet discipline; you won't ever be much in this sport.
Even the supplement companies exploit the wannabe types with insane claims for their products , that offer "drug like" effects to build muscle and burn fat, etc.
Save you money and don't risk your freedom and health on an empty pipedream.
If you respond well to the iron, it will be obvious and you may be the top 0.1% that has what it takes.
If that is YOU, enter a show and see how you do. If you kick butt, at that point you may consider what other risks you wish to take to push the envelope.
If, like most of us, you struggle to make gains and have never won a show, you might need a reality break.
Forget about the magic cycle or secret regimes and stick with a sensible routine to make progress.
Getting a trophy in your state or local meet is quite a rush and won't cause you to sell the farm in the process.
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howie, you need a girl.
the fact you spent 10 minutes delivering this rubbish shows you're very bored with your life and focusing upon the choices and words of others that will never effect you. It's akin to me pouring out my heart about why Bloods and Crips cannot just get along, for pete's sake.
it's not your world anymore. Howie. Make babies and get on with your life. The years are flying by.
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howie, you need a girl.
the fact you spent 10 minutes delivering this rubbish shows you're very bored with your life and focusing upon the choices and words of others that will never effect you. It's akin to me pouring out my heart about why Bloods and Crips cannot just get along, for pete's sake.
it's not your world anymore. Howie. Make babies and get on with your life. The years are flying by.
I know, I don't think like the typical wannabe , hardcore lifter and that makes me "odd".
Perhaps, sensible posts about actual BB issues are a waste of time on this forum.
Ya know, ones about Tiger Woods on HGH is a lot more sensible and better use of time.
Or the typical fight between two board regulars about who "owned " who.
Better yet, why not find a million reasons to run down the top pros and make fun of them. ::)
Talking about some common myth related to drugs in bodybuilding is pretty out of bounds after that "important stuff" ya know ;) I am so bored, compared to all the guys on here with a life hehehehe
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We all have to accept that drugs are a part of the sport.If you want to look like a bodybuilder you are going to have to juice.If you do not accept that then have a look at the guys who compete in the natural federations.Man it must suck to train your arse off every day and end up looking like a swimmer.
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howie, you need a girl.
He's got a girl. His ex-wife. She's a looker. Prior to her, there was a hottie named Beth, I think. She was nice, but wouldn't take it up the pooper so Howie dumped her. Before Beth there was his (again) current at which time they were married. She's got a bigger rack than your IQ score.
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Even the supplement companies exploit the wannabe types with insane claims for their products , that offer "drug like" effects to build muscle and burn fat, etc
Here! Here! if you want to make a shit load of money and you have no scruples or morals get involved in the supplement business >:(
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didn't we all know this already?
Stop beating a dead horse
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Training doesn't mean jack shit, Howie.
Fact, pros would be at least 80% of their size and conditioning if they merely took all the same drugs and literally did push-ups and chin-ups (if that).
Last I checked, cows being pumped full of BGH weren't "training" and gained hundreds of pounds of muscle merely on a high calorie diet alone.
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Training doesn't mean jack shit, Howie.
Fact, pros would be at least 80% of their size and conditioning if they merely took all the same drugs and literally did push-ups and chin-ups (if that).
Last I checked, cows being pumped full of BGH weren't "training" and gained hundreds of pounds of muscle merely on a high calorie diet alone.
Are you serious? you really believe this??? I can't even think of an intelligent reply based on my experience and observations in bodybuilding , other than ; " If what you say is 100% true, than why don't we have legions of gym rats that look like exactly like the top guys at the Olympia?"
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HowieW, do one serious proper cycle and you'll understand how much of bb'ing is drugs, you can train like absolute shit, with the worst form and still grow like a weed... don't believe me? try it yourself.
Oh and for proof, just look at some of the pics of pro's off gear..ie. Levrone, Dorian, Flex, Titus, Tom Prince, etc. etc.
they're not exactly '300lbs. with abs'
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didn't we all know this already?
Stop beating a dead horse
I am trying to take this in a new direction.
I am NOT talking about the drugs as legal issues or reality on hardcore bodybuilding. I am looking at how so many hardcore types blame drugs for EVERYTHING in bodybuilding.
That is as wrong as saying drugs don't make ANY difference.
Why is moderation and logic such a hard sell in bodybuilding.
How is that so few in bodybuilding use any critical thought process or simple,basic, objective logic?
The more posts I read on the boards, the more I shake my head and think wtf?
Seriously, many of the retorts and counters are so off the wall and illogical, I just don't even understand them.
Hey Capt Eq. I did do a few basic cycles back in the mid 80's, and it enhanced my physique, but I was not delsuional enough to think I would be a top olympia pro ,no matter what I took.I am a good, NOT great bodybuilder.
Yes , the pros you mention have shrunk, but that is from health issues for the most part.
If they were healthy and trained and ate like they did before they would still look decent.
Once again, my basic premise is this:
Where are the 100's of guys that look like the top 5 pros , in top shape?
It is more genetics than drugs my friends. The "drugs are everything" myth keeps the gurus in business and keeps the delusions alive in many wannabes. Just give me the right drug cycle and guru and I can be the next Mr O...NOT!Reality bites for many people I guess.
Howard
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Are you serious? you really believe this??? I can't even think of an intelligent reply based on my experience and observations in bodybuilding , other than ; " If what you say is 100% true, than why don't we have legions of gym rats that look like exactly like the top guys at the Olympia?"
One good example to prove Matt C's point is the fact that at the Olympia, you can have hard working ball busting guys like Ronnie and Dorian up there...standing next to and losing to guys like Flex and Dillett, both of which are notorious for being "lazy" in the gym.
At a certain point...yeah it's all about drug response.
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One good example to prove Matt C's point is the fact that at the Olympia, you can have hard working ball busting guys like Ronnie and Dorian up there...standing next to and losing to guys like Flex and Dillett, both of which are notorious for being "lazy" in the gym.
At a certain point...yeah it's all about drug response.
Response along with muscle shape and ability to gain sheer size while getting lean is genetics!
Plus ya gotta diet strictly no matter who you are , ya know.
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Training doesn't mean jack shit, Howie.
Fact, pros would be at least 80% of their size and conditioning if they merely took all the same drugs and literally did push-ups and chin-ups (if that).
Last I checked, cows being pumped full of BGH weren't "training" and gained hundreds of pounds of muscle merely on a high calorie diet alone.
Hahaha this is my vote for "The most retarded of all the BB drug myths". Are you really that misinformed Matt?
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Hahaha this is my vote for "The most retarded of all the BB drug myths". Are you really that misinformed Matt?
I waondered the same thing myself. I will let Matt answer.
My point was and still is, that unless you have the genetics , drive and overall "talent" for bodybuilding, all the drugs and special supplements don't mean jack crap.
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I waondered the same thing myself. I will let Matt answer.
My point was and still is, that unless you have the genetics , drive and overall "talent" for bodybuilding, all the drugs and special supplements don't mean jack crap.
I'm sorry...but you guys give "pros" way too much credit
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Are you serious? you really believe this??? I can't even think of an intelligent reply based on my experience and observations in bodybuilding , other than ; " If what you say is 100% true, than why don't we have legions of gym rats that look like exactly like the top guys at the Olympia?"
Read this abstract and if you have access to the journal, download and read the entire study:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8637535
Four groups were studied:
1. Placebo with no exercise
2. Testosterone with no exercise
3. Placebo plus exercise
4. Testosterone plus exercise.
Both of the testosterone groups gained the most muscle and strength. That means the ones taking steroids and not working out gained more than the ones who were natural (placebo) and working out. Let's also keep in mind the placebo effect was at play here. They may have gained even less muscle not using the placebo and being truly natural (this I am not sure of though).
The gains for those taking steroids were significantly higher than those taking a placebo. The difference in gains between the steroid users who worked out and those who didn't were marginal. Proof that steroids made the biggest difference. The steroid users who also trained only made slightly better gains than the steroid users literally doing nothing.
Translated: if I were to stop working out and go on a cycle described above I would maintain or increase both my strength and muscularity without even working out. I would gain more muscle and strength than I currently can naturally. Fact.
This is exactly the same in pro bodybuilding only on a bigger scale of course.
I am NOT saying I could take the drugs Victor Martinez takes and look like him. I am saying that HE could take the same drugs he is currently take, cease all training, and retain over 80% of his size and conditioning eating the same diet, sleeping, and perhaps throwing in a few push-ups.
Cows gain hundreds of pounds of muscles on BGH simply by eating a high calorie diet due to the increased protein synthesis caused by said BGH. They do not "work hard in the gym" which so many pro bodybuilders are delusional enough to believe make a big difference in their results. The main catalyst for growth is steroids.
In comparison to drugs, training is fuck all.
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I have read many studies Matty. You will surely add some muscle with the use of AAS. You will not however get to pro size, or even look like a body builder just running AAS. It takes a lot of hard work and discipline with training and diet, to look like a body builder. Especially a pro. Real Body builders (natural and enhanced) Train their ass off. It does not come from a magic pill. Sorry bro but you are really misinformed.
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I have read many studies Matty. You will surely add some muscle with the use of AAS. You will not however get to pro size, or even look like a body builder just running AAS. It takes a lot of hard work and discipline with training and diet, to look like a body builder. Especially a pro. Real Body builders (natural and enhanced) Train their ass off. It does not come from a magic pill. Sorry bro but you are really misinformed.
And where did I claim that? I must have missed the part where I ever wrote anything about drugs being able to make a person pro sized.
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And where did I claim that? I must have missed the part where I ever wrote anything about drugs being able to make a person pro sized.
Maybe you should re-read the first sentence in the first post.
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Maybe you should re-read the first sentence in the first post.
Sure...just did.
And my point is that drugs are the biggest, most important factor in pro bodybuilding. Howie seems to be suggesting that lots of us think we would look like pro bodybuilders using the same drugs they do. The "ALL DRUGS" camp is saying that pros would look much worse without drugs. Not that we would look like them on drugs, more like they would look like us off drugs by and large. They would look like nothing. Guys 5'9 would MAYBE hit 200 shredded, and I doubt even that.
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We all have to accept that drugs are a part of the sport.If you want to look like a bodybuilder you are going to have to juice.If you do not accept that then have a look at the guys who compete in the natural federations.Man it must suck to train your arse off every day and end up looking like a swimmer.
haha, Epic loser mentality. You'll fit in fine with the stable of "hardcore" bodybuilders out there. Most people can't do jack naturally, but some however...can. And most who juice, look like shit, not a pro bb.
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Sure...just did.
And my point is that drugs are the biggest, most important factor in pro bodybuilding. Howie seems to be suggesting that lots of us think we would look like pro bodybuilders using the same drugs they do. The "ALL DRUGS" camp is saying that pros would look much worse without drugs. Not that we would look like them on drugs, more like they would look like us off drugs by and large. They would look like nothing. Guys 5'9 would MAYBE hit 200 shredded, and I doubt even that.
Nowhere in your post do I see, "genetics" or "response".....regardless of drugs usage, these two factors play a huge role in the development of the body, with or without steroids. I think that is what Howie is trying to say.
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Nowhere in your post do I see, "genetics" or "response".....regardless of drugs usage, these two factors play a huge role in the development of the body, with or without steroids. I think that is what Howie is trying to say.
Genetic response to drugs is very important. Also, genetic structure.
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Genetic response to drugs is very important. Also, genetic structure.
Totally agree.
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I have read many studies Matty. You will surely add some muscle with the use of AAS. You will not however get to pro size, or even look like a body builder just running AAS. It takes a lot of hard work and discipline with training and diet, to look like a body builder. Especially a pro. Real Body builders (natural and enhanced) Train their ass off. It does not come from a magic pill. Sorry bro but you are really misinformed.
::)
The argument of "well then why aren't there pro-like physiques everywhere" doesn't work. Not with bodybuilding. Honestly, you have to be seriously suicidal to become a pro, plain and simple. Even Kamali said the things they have to do to compete at that level are "scary"!
Where's the respect with playing russian roullette with hormones?!
Another good point Kamali made was that the reason he became a pro was because he was young and stupid and basically didn't care! :o
I know a pro that owns a supplement store out here in So Cal, used to be a normal name in flex in the 90's, he would tell you the only difference between the NPC competitor and the IFBB competitor...is the drugs.
I like in the "war for the worlds" when chick is making his food, he says it's basic egg omellette with oatmeal, "IFBB doesn't have some secret weider farms where they grow special chicken....."
Nothing different, no special foods, no special lifts and weird techniques.............. .........just drugs. Of course structure, muscle length and shape and most importantly drug response make all the difference...but without the drugs, there is NOOOOOO IFBB ;)
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::)
The argument of "well then why aren't there pro-like physiques everywhere" doesn't work. Not with bodybuilding. Honestly, you have to be seriously suicidal to become a pro, plain and simple. Even Kamali said the things they have to do to compete at that level are "scary"!
Where's the respect with playing russian roullette with hormones?!
Another good point Kamali made was that the reason he became a pro was because he was young and stupid and basically didn't care! :o
I know a pro that owns a supplement store out here in So Cal, used to be a normal name in flex in the 90's, he would tell you the only difference between the NPC competitor and the IFBB competitor...is the drugs.
I like in the "war for the worlds" when chick is making his food, he says it's basic egg omellette with oatmeal, "IFBB doesn't have some secret weider farms where they grow special chicken....."
Nothing different, no special foods, no special lifts and weird techniques.............. .........just drugs. Of course structure, muscle length and shape and most importantly drug response make all the difference...but without the drugs, there is NOOOOOO IFBB ;)
I agree 100% with your point here and realize that the freakish level of cuts of size we see on an IFBB stage are impossible without drugs. Having agreed with that, I think you and many others missed my main pt.
In the end it is the genetics that determine who has the best physique along with training and then diet.
The drugs enhance what base is already there.
Take away the drug from the pros and they won't be as big or freaky, but the best pros with drugs will still be the top guys WITHOUT drugs ( if everyone was drug free).
I enjoy seeing the top drug enhanced physiques, no question about it.
I would prefer to see the best guys OFF drugs and compete like that however.
Just my feelings on this one, no axes to grind .
Howard
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::)
The argument of "well then why aren't there pro-like physiques everywhere" doesn't work. Not with bodybuilding. Honestly, you have to be seriously suicidal to become a pro, plain and simple. Even Kamali said the things they have to do to compete at that level are "scary"!
Where's the respect with playing russian roullette with hormones?!
Another good point Kamali made was that the reason he became a pro was because he was young and stupid and basically didn't care! :o
I know a pro that owns a supplement store out here in So Cal, used to be a normal name in flex in the 90's, he would tell you the only difference between the NPC competitor and the IFBB competitor...is the drugs.
I like in the "war for the worlds" when chick is making his food, he says it's basic egg omellette with oatmeal, "IFBB doesn't have some secret weider farms where they grow special chicken....."
Nothing different, no special foods, no special lifts and weird techniques.............. .........just drugs. Of course structure, muscle length and shape and most importantly drug response make all the difference...but without the drugs, there is NOOOOOO IFBB ;)
I also agree with what your saying. Mattyboy just tried to say that one could be a bodybuilder woth drugs alone. I had to call him on this bs.
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I also agree with what your saying. Mattyboy just tried to say that one could be a bodybuilder woth drugs alone. I had to call him on this bs.
I have been in plenty of gyms with various "gym rats" that tried every combo of drugs and supplements ever invented. The funny thing was, that a lot of these guys didn't put nearly as much effort into their training or basic diet. Most of these tyoes look either : way too bulky and train in layers of gym clothes or they have that skiiny fat look.I used small amounts of varoius roids for 3 yrs *83-86. I competed in NPC shows from *87 to 95 WITHOUT any drugs in NON-tested NPC shows. I did about 20 shows in that time period and even won a few local/state NPC shows against guys that were on the juice. I swear I got a heck of a lot more satisfaction being able to beat or at least match up with guys on the juice when I was natural.
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Take away the drug from the pros and they won't be as big or freaky, but the best pros with drugs will still be the top guys WITHOUT drugs ( if everyone was drug free).
I don't think so, not at all. Some physiques are much much more drug dependent. The placings would change drastically if drugs were taken out of the equation.
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Take away the drug from the pros and they won't be as big or freaky, but the best pros with drugs will still be the top guys WITHOUT drugs ( if everyone was drug free).
You're leaving out a whole other variable here which is genetic response to drugs. Kevin Levrone and Tom Prince look like nothing without hormones but are two of the biggest bodybuilders ever while on. I doubt either would even get a natural pro card.
Mike Morris talks about his dosages here:
http://www.getbig.com/iview/morris051229.htm
Were you pretty moderate with your dosages?
"There were times when I was doing a heavy cycle. That would be five shots a week. A shot every day of the week and then two days off. A daily shot would include 250 mg. of Sustanon, 200 mg. of Enthanate and 300 mg. of Deca. So that's 3,750 mgs. a week plus orals. I'd usually take one oral at a time, like D-Bol or Anadrol. I can't speak for other bodybuilders, just for myself and what I've done. Anything over that-man, that's a lot of shit to take a shot with that everyday!"
From top NPC competitor Dave Pulcinella:
http://www.bodybuildingpro.com/davepulcinellainterview05052007.html
What do you think about drugs in bodybuilding?
"I remember a guy at a show once telling me he was using three grams a week and that blew my mind. Now that is a low end number."
I encourage all professional bodybuilders to go off drugs and just "work hard" and "eat right" and see how far that takes them. :P
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You're leaving out a whole other variable here which is genetic response to drugs. Kevin Levrone and Tom Prince look like nothing without hormones but are two of the biggest bodybuilders ever while on. I doubt either would even get a natural pro card.
Mike Morris talks about his dosages here:
http://www.getbig.com/iview/morris051229.htm
Were you pretty moderate with your dosages?
"There were times when I was doing a heavy cycle. That would be five shots a week. A shot every day of the week and then two days off. A daily shot would include 250 mg. of Sustanon, 200 mg. of Enthanate and 300 mg. of Deca. So that's 3,750 mgs. a week plus orals. I'd usually take one oral at a time, like D-Bol or Anadrol. I can't speak for other bodybuilders, just for myself and what I've done. Anything over that-man, that's a lot of shit to take a shot with that everyday!"
From top NPC competitor Mike Pulcinella:
http://www.bodybuildingpro.com/davepulcinellainterview05052007.html
What do you think about drugs in bodybuilding?
"I remember a guy at a show once telling me he was using three grams a week and that blew my mind. Now that is a low end number."
I encourage all professional bodybuilders to go off drugs and just "work hard" and "eat right" and see how far that takes them. :P
Mike is Dave"s brother................. .........Mike is not a bodybuilder/nor does he compete
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You're leaving out a whole other variable here which is genetic response to drugs. Kevin Levrone and Tom Prince look like nothing without hormones but are two of the biggest bodybuilders ever while on. I doubt either would even get a natural pro card.
Mike Morris talks about his dosages here:
http://www.getbig.com/iview/morris051229.htm
Were you pretty moderate with your dosages?
"There were times when I was doing a heavy cycle. That would be five shots a week. A shot every day of the week and then two days off. A daily shot would include 250 mg. of Sustanon, 200 mg. of Enthanate and 300 mg. of Deca. So that's 3,750 mgs. a week plus orals. I'd usually take one oral at a time, like D-Bol or Anadrol. I can't speak for other bodybuilders, just for myself and what I've done. Anything over that-man, that's a lot of shit to take a shot with that everyday!"
From top NPC competitor Mike Pulcinella:
http://www.bodybuildingpro.com/davepulcinellainterview05052007.html
What do you think about drugs in bodybuilding?
"I remember a guy at a show once telling me he was using three grams a week and that blew my mind. Now that is a low end number."
I encourage all professional bodybuilders to go off drugs and just "work hard" and "eat right" and see how far that takes them. :P
The bottom line is that we have no real scientfic studies on steroid response with the kind of doseage you refer to here, thus it is more heresay and gym lore, etc.In that light, I admit that I honestly don't know what the "genetic response" effect really is in any objective measure. I do know I was able to do just fine without taking ANYTHING in regional shows against guys that claimed to be on various amounts of juice. I have seen plenty of other guys on either NO drugs or low/moderate levels do pretty well also in regional NPC shows.The most I ever took was like 1 -200 mg shot of decca a week and nothing else at the same time (1983-86 over 20 yrs ago)
I never came close to a pro card and really don't consider the elite , pro level regimes to be relevent to me or 99.9% of us that enjoy bodybuilding. I know for a fact that any guy with decent genetics can do just fine building a good physique on little to no drug use. This is the best of all worlds in my opinion. Build a great physique and strong healthy body that stays young and in shape for years. Then, compete in local/state shows , get a few trophies and have some great times in contests, etc. I also think that going to pro events is a lot of fun.They show what can be done with the best genetics and extreme regimes. I admire thew pros for their physiques, but have no desire to endure what they go thru. I have a good job and don't need bodybuilding for anything but a healthy lifestyle and sport I enjoy.
Look, if some Joe Blow-Mr Nobody, old fart, like me can build a 20" arm with just reg training and no extreme drug regimes, I bet a lot of guys can. Plus, I am 49 now and damn near 50. Yes, I use Androgel to keep my testosterone levels in the ideal -normal range, but that is it.I am NOTHING special and I have done just fine building muscle without having to resort to major, extreme drug use. I am nothing close to a pro physique, but did build some decent muscle size in 31 yrs of pumping iron. THAT is my point
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Dont need drugs to grow. need em to help you cut tho, maybe...
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Dont need drugs to grow. need em to help you cut tho, maybe...
ooooooohhhh, , now THAT cut like a knife....got me ;)
I am trying to cut now and it ain't easy, but being on a diet is a pain at any age ya know.
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Mike is Dave"s brother................. .........Mike is not a bodybuilder/nor does he compete
Yes I know. Thanks for pointing out my error. Fixed.
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ooooooohhhh, , now THAT cut like a knife....got me ;)
I am trying to cut now and it ain't easy, but being on a diet is a pain at any age ya know.
Actually it was meant for the thread. Im a bulky guy like you howie....dieting is a drag... :-\
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Actually it was meant for the thread. Im a bulky guy like you howie....dieting is a drag... :-\
Ya I didn't take it personal, but in my case..ouch , it hit home LOL.
In 1986 , I did take 2- 50 mg shots each week of winnie V and that made cutting up seem easier. I did still have DIET like a mo-fo however and I was a LOT younger hehe.
I got my most ripped ever in 93-95 by adding in cardio and being real stricct on diet however and NO drugs.
Ok, my main pt was and purpose for posting a recent pic is to show that anyone can build decent muscle mass and then diet to get ripped. I get sick of hearing how you "can't build anything over a 16" arm without drugs".
I really get sick of hearing that lame excuse, when I know I have built size without drugs and so have plenty of other guys that I have known .
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The most I ever took was like 1 -200 mg shot of decca a week and nothing else at the same time (1983-86 over 20 yrs ago)
I never came close to a pro card and really don't consider the elite , pro level regimes to be relevent to me or 99.9% of us that enjoy bodybuilding.
Oh, so you were another one of those "I was the sole exception among bodybuilders taking 3G test per week + GH + slin, and I actually just took enough to shut down my HPTA and yield no positive anabolic side effects" Lee Priest types who (adjusting for ester weight), would only end up in hormonal shutdown off the amounts you took. Sorry, not buying it. And even if you did actually take only 200mg of deca per week I would have to say that is a pretty sordid looking cycle and ask what possibly possessed you to do that. ;D
Your other points about requiring little if any drugs to build a good physique are well taken. However, stop saying that you were "just average" and all that false modesty. We've all seen your pictures and know you were above average for bodybuilding, genetics wise.
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The bottom line is that we have no real scientfic studies on steroid response with the kind of doseage you refer to here, thus it is more heresay and gym lore, etc..
i really believe that certain people respond much better to aas than others. look at arnold, and levrone for examples. i know a guy who competed as a natural at a very young age in TOP amatuer shows against guys who were juicing and he did VERY well. alot of guys thought he would be big in the pro's actually. but when he finally did decide to juice, he grew a little, but just looked like an average bodybuilder, instead of looking exceptional, like he had for a natural.
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Oh, so you were another one of those "I was the sole exception among bodybuilders taking 3G test per week + GH + slin, and I actually just took enough to shut down my HPTA and yield no positive anabolic side effects" Lee Priest types who (adjusting for ester weight), would only end up in hormonal shutdown off the amounts you took. Sorry, not buying it. And even if you did actually take only 200mg of deca per week I would have to say that is a pretty sordid looking cycle and ask what possibly possessed you to do that.
The one shot of decca was 2 cc's and one vial in size. It was in 1 ampule vials and contained 200 mg of active decca duroblin. Matt,synthetic HGH and some of the other stuff you mentioned was NOT even available back over 20 years ago, so unless I hoped in a time machine, I could not use it. I stopped useing any sterioids in 1987, that is 21 yrs ago. I do take one packet of Androgel a day now the amount my doc prescribed to me. I know what my arms actually measure and I know I am not on any HGH, slin or whatever else you mentioned. I have 2 friends that won the overall NPC Mr La and took next to nothing if anything.
Paul Ware in 1999 and Joe Ned in 2000 (age 49).
My point was and is, you can make decent gains, and do fine in a local or state NPC show without and extreme drugs.
I have done it plenty of times and know others that have as well.
Of course, by feeling this "impossible" LOL,it allows you and others that think like you to have a ready made excuse as to why they can't make gains.
I competed against these 2 guys that bragged about the massive cycles they were on for the AAU Mr Louisiana back in 1993.
I beat both of them with straight 1sts on he judges scores and didn't take jackshit for drugs.
By th way, I take it is a genuine compliment when others don't believe I did this well without any drugs, so thanks.
Howard
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i really believe that certain people respond much better to aas than others. look at arnold, and levrone for examples. i know a guy who competed as a natural at a very young age in TOP amatuer shows against guys who were juicing and he did VERY well. alot of guys thought he would be big in the pro's actually. but when he finally did decide to juice, he grew a little, but just looked like an average bodybuilder, instead of looking exceptional, like he had for a natural.
Good point, but again too many varibles to know for sure in any ojective way about the reality of drug response to the levels the pros use. No study exists or will be done with that insane amount hehehe.
I do know you can build a good physique WITHOUT drugs like the guy in your post did.
Howard
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I beat both of them with straight 1sts on he judges scores and didn't take jackshit for drugs.
You are talking alot but it would be nice to know how many cycles you did, how long each cycle,what you took strictly for size and how much you gained in each cycle.At the moment saying you can gain size without mass drug use means nothing, 1 gram a week is considered tiny by pro level.
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You are talking alot but it would be nice to know how many cycles you did, how long each cycle,what you took strictly for size and how much you gained in each cycle.At the moment saying you can gain size without mass drug use means nothing, 1 gram a week is considered tiny by pro level.
Ok here goes: In 1983 -84 I did 1 shot of test a week about 200 mg max and NOTHING else during that cycle for 2 months and then off for 6 weeks. I did some decca and nothing else, one 200 mg shot a week ( 20% of a gram) for 3 diff 2 month cycles. Before some shows in 85 and 86 I did a couple 50 ml shots of winnie V a week the last 6 weeks before a show.
From 87 ot 95, I did over 20 shows and did just fine on NO drugs. In 1993, I won 2 shows and had not touched a drug in 6 years. I did next to nothing compred to what guys do now. I think this is the reason I felt I made almost as good gains without any drugs. I am 100% honest here and am sincere in my belief and personal experience that drugs are OVER rated in terms of making basic gains for most of us in the gym.
I am nothing special and quite average in terms of genetics and have done just fine without drugs.
My big psych is to do local/regional NON tested NPC shows and see how many guys that juice that I can beat.
I get a kick out of that, while some don't believe me, I could care less.
I remember winning the 1994 NPC La Ironman natural and hearing a lot of former naysayers say damn, I guess Howard is natural. I am trying to suck down a good 35 more lbs lighter ( I have lost 6 so far on my current diet) and compete this fall in the open class on no roids ( just my androgel) at age 49 against guys half my age that juice.
I may not win the overall, but I should do ok at a ripped 210 or so at 5'9".
Howard
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Response to AAS is a huge factor in all this.
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Response to AAS is a huge factor in all this.
true, but juicing is not part of my BB world so it is a NON issue to me overall.
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true, but juicing is not part of my BB world so it is a NON issue to me overall.
Nor mine Howie. I was more referring to your original point. I think that the response to AAS is the most important factor. Then comes the genetic structure, muscle bellies, intensity.. etc.
I appreciate that most pros like to try to underplay the importance of the cocktails but the fact remains that if they were as unimportant as they try to make out, then they wouldn't spend thousands a month on them.
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Nor mine Howie. I was more referring to your original point. I think that the response to AAS is the most important factor. Then comes the genetic structure, muscle bellies, intensity.. etc.
I appreciate that most pros like to try to underplay the importance of the cocktails but the fact remains that if they were as unimportant as they try to make out, then they wouldn't spend thousands a month on them.
Great pt. I do think the various drug coacktails do make a some difference, no question. But you could put hundreds of gym rats on the same juice and they would still look like crap LOL That is my pt.
Howard
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Ok here goes: In 1983 -84 I did 1 shot of test a week about 200 mg max and NOTHING else during that cycle for 2 months and then off for 6 weeks. I did some decca and nothing else, one 200 mg shot a week ( 20% of a gram) for 3 diff 2 month cycles. Before some shows in 85 and 86 I did a couple 50 ml shots of winnie V a week the last 6 weeks before a show.
From 87 ot 95, I did over 20 shows and did just fine on NO drugs. In 1993, I won 2 shows and had not touched a drug in 6 years. I did next to nothing compred to what guys do now. I think this is the reason I felt I made almost as good gains without any drugs. I am 100% honest here and am sincere in my belief and personal experience that drugs are OVER rated in terms of making basic gains for most of us in the gym.
I am nothing special and quite average in terms of genetics and have done just fine without drugs.
My big psych is to do local/regional NON tested NPC shows and see how many guys that juice that I can beat.
I get a kick out of that, while some don't believe me, I could care less.
I remember winning the 1994 NPC La Ironman natural and hearing a lot of former naysayers say damn, I guess Howard is natural. I am trying to suck down a good 35 more lbs lighter ( I have lost 6 so far on my current diet) and compete this fall in the open class on no roids ( just my androgel) at age 49 against guys half my age that juice.
I may not win the overall, but I should do ok at a ripped 210 or so at 5'9".
Howard
4 6-8 weeks cycles of even 200mg test a week is enough to put you ahead of most naturals.
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4 6-8 weeks cycles of even 200mg test a week is enough to put you ahead of most naturals.
I never said it was not a bit of an advantage. BUT, I have not done any of it for over 20 years and am STRONGER now than I was then....go figure.
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I may not win the overall, but I should do ok at a ripped 210 or so at 5'9".
Howard
I agree with your point that you can have a great physique such as the one described above, on relatively modest steroid stacks. That said, my main point is that steroids (along with nutrition) are the biggest factor in bodybuilding.
If Ronnie Coleman trained hard and ate big and Victor Martinez took all the drugs he currently takes and did no working out aside from the bowflex, who do you think would be Mr. Olympia?
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I agree with your point that you can have a great physique such as the one described above, on relatively modest steroid stacks. That said, my main point is that steroids (along with nutrition) are the biggest factor in bodybuilding.
If Ronnie Coleman trained hard and ate big and Victor Martinez took all the drugs he currently takes and did no working out aside from the bowflex, who do you think would be Mr. Olympia?
Matt , unless you are hell bent on being an IFBB pro, one never need use ANY drugs for their bodybuilding.
For most of us, impressive steady gains can be made from just lifting and good food, cardio, etc.
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Matt , unless you are hell bent on being an IFBB pro, one never need use ANY drugs for their bodybuilding.
For most of us, impressive steady gains can be made from just lifting and good food, cardio, etc.
Perhaps...
But for me personally I find that getting to and maintaining a lean (not ripped, but not fat) 195 is difficult at my height of 5'9. My arms in that state are around 16.5" pumped and flexed. That is around as much as I can do.
Discuss.
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...
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Matt , unless you are hell bent on being an IFBB pro, one never need use ANY drugs for their bodybuilding.
For most of us, impressive steady gains can be made from just lifting and good food, cardio, etc.
correct...and don't forget about the purportedly heavy use of various narcotics now implemented along with the panoply of steroids, GH, Insulin, etc.
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...
lol ;D
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Perhaps...
But for me personally I find that getting to and maintaining a lean (not ripped, but not fat) 195 is difficult at my height of 5'9. My arms in that state are around 16.5" pumped and flexed. That is around as much as I can do.
Discuss.
you'd likely better serve yourself at 180-185
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SUMMARY:
If you lack the genetics , training work ethic or diet discipline; you won't ever be much in this sport.
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???
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???
(http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=206136.0;attach=240837;image)
A solid nattie.
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no way ruhl has ever even touched any kind of gear.
if he has he should ask for his money bak...dude got ripped off!!
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Read this abstract and if you have access to the journal, download and read the entire study:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8637535
Four groups were studied:
1. Placebo with no exercise
2. Testosterone with no exercise
3. Placebo plus exercise
4. Testosterone plus exercise.
Both of the testosterone groups gained the most muscle and strength. That means the ones taking steroids and not working out gained more than the ones who were natural (placebo) and working out. Let's also keep in mind the placebo effect was at play here. They may have gained even less muscle not using the placebo and being truly natural (this I am not sure of though).
The gains for those taking steroids were significantly higher than those taking a placebo. The difference in gains between the steroid users who worked out and those who didn't were marginal. Proof that steroids made the biggest difference. The steroid users who also trained only made slightly better gains than the steroid users literally doing nothing.
Translated: if I were to stop working out and go on a cycle described above I would maintain or increase both my strength and muscularity without even working out. I would gain more muscle and strength than I currently can naturally. Fact.
This is exactly the same in pro bodybuilding only on a bigger scale of course.
I am NOT saying I could take the drugs Victor Martinez takes and look like him. I am saying that HE could take the same drugs he is currently take, cease all training, and retain over 80% of his size and conditioning eating the same diet, sleeping, and perhaps throwing in a few push-ups.
Cows gain hundreds of pounds of muscles on BGH simply by eating a high calorie diet due to the increased protein synthesis caused by said BGH. They do not "work hard in the gym" which so many pro bodybuilders are delusional enough to believe make a big difference in their results. The main catalyst for growth is steroids.
In comparison to drugs, training is fuck all.
awesome analysis.
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A solid nattie.
Even if this pic and nattie comment had nothong to do with this thread, it was funny as hell !
That stuff hangin' out if his mouth really makes the pic.
Yes, it is true that if you want to have any chance of being a 300 lb freak like Marcus, you need to be juiced to the gills. But, if you want to have good physique, and enjoy a long healthy life, you can do that with ease without any drugs, that is my pt.
Howard
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Perhaps...
But for me personally I find that getting to and maintaining a lean (not ripped, but not fat) 195 is difficult at my height of 5'9. My arms in that state are around 16.5" pumped and flexed. That is around as much as I can do.
Discuss.
How old are you? I am also about 5'9" ( 5 ft , 9 and 1/2 inches to be exact).
A legit , solid, failry muscular 16 -17 " arm on a guy under 6 ft is pretty good.
Most that say they have 20" or bigger guns , lie their ass off.
I had to get over 240 to get legit 20" arms and I know I look worse as a result.Why?
I am too damn bulky now and lost some of the lines and overall shape I once had.
I did well in shows a lot lighter years ago.
I am dropping the extra wt, which is some fat as well LOL.
Matt, if you have the right shape and frame, a ripped 190 lb body at 5'9" can look incredible.
Lots of fantastic Lt Hvys ( 176 -198 lb class) are 5'8" - 5'9" and around 190's.
Zane won 3 Olympias with that kind of size. In my humble opinion, he was the best Mr O .
I am getting back to around 200 and want to looked ripped again. I may not have legit 20" arms at that lower wt, but I bet I ook a hell of a lot better on stage.
Howard
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Here Howie, this picture was when my arms were over 16", but under 17" (pumped/flexed, although I am not sure if they are pumped in the picture.
(http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=99475.0;attach=109448;image)
I am pretty well the same height you are. Keep in mind my arms have Kamali symptoms: they are neither peaked, nor long. Long and flat (Sergio Oliva, Frank McGrath, Chris Cook) is alright, and short and peaked (Arnold, Al Beckles) is alright. But short AND flat arms are a problem! So my 16-17" arms do not look as impressive as someone with superior genetics. If Chris Cook's arms were the same size in the same condition, they would look better since he has longer biceps than I do.
Also, check this out, it's from a thread from getbig back in the day that has since been deleted:
http://www.bodybuildingpro.com/halloweenmrolympia.html
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The bottom line is that we have no real scientfic studies on steroid response with the kind of doseage you refer to here, thus it is more heresay and gym lore, etc.In that light, I admit that I honestly don't know what the "genetic response" effect really is in any objective measure. I do know I was able to do just fine without taking ANYTHING in regional shows against guys that claimed to be on various amounts of juice. I have seen plenty of other guys on either NO drugs or low/moderate levels do pretty well also in regional NPC shows.The most I ever took was like 1 -200 mg shot of decca a week and nothing else at the same time (1983-86 over 20 yrs ago)
I never came close to a pro card and really don't consider the elite , pro level regimes to be relevent to me or 99.9% of us that enjoy bodybuilding. I know for a fact that any guy with decent genetics can do just fine building a good physique on little to no drug use. This is the best of all worlds in my opinion. Build a great physique and strong healthy body that stays young and in shape for years. Then, compete in local/state shows , get a few trophies and have some great times in contests, etc. I also think that going to pro events is a lot of fun.They show what can be done with the best genetics and extreme regimes. I admire thew pros for their physiques, but have no desire to endure what they go thru. I have a good job and don't need bodybuilding for anything but a healthy lifestyle and sport I enjoy.
Look, if some Joe Blow-Mr Nobody, old fart, like me can build a 20" arm with just reg training and no extreme drug regimes, I bet a lot of guys can. Plus, I am 49 now and damn near 50. Yes, I use Androgel to keep my testosterone levels in the ideal -normal range, but that is it.I am NOTHING special and I have done just fine building muscle without having to resort to major, extreme drug use. I am nothing close to a pro physique, but did build some decent muscle size in 31 yrs of pumping iron. THAT is my point
you have yoru 19 inch arms because you are hormonized,,you got water bloat as a result of high level of hormones very similar to dianabol bloat,,it can also come from hrt and from andro creames and "the clear" and "the creme",,,those are all drugs ,,real hormones considered drugs wether they are prescribed or not it dont change the picture that they are hormones ,,syntetic hormones,,
infact your arms maybe 19 inch but the main reason for that is because your waist is large and you carry lots of what i call hormone water and fat weight,,those arms would shrink to 16-17 inch if preping for stage maybe 18 inch if preping with hormones
generally speaking DRUGS IS 90% OF BODYBUILDING,,it always was like that ,,always will be like that,,genetics response to hormones and genetic frame that is able to carry this muscle mass and keep it balanced inaddition to drug tolarence since many of the gym rat dont have the high rug tolarence nor the muslce shape and symetry needed for a pro card
any one who ever seen 18 inch arms and was in low single digit bodyfat and under 5'10 has been on hormones one way or another,,the ones with better response take it to the 20 inch while maintaining low singles and the onews with the worse response keep it at 16-17 inch at low single digit while on hormones
truly naturals usually hae no thickness ,,no swole from withing the muscle,,they look weak while low single digit if they ever can get there with out looking like skeletons,,and in most cases true naturals cant get down to under 6% even when very small,,they will usually stop at 7% and go on stage at pretty small size
all of the above are facts writen in stone,,no matter what freak you are something will have to bring this freak out and that somthing is lots of drugs ,,mainly hormones but sadly some other drugs too
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Here Howie, this picture was when my arms were over 16", but under 17" (pumped/flexed, although I am not sure if they are pumped in the picture.
(http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=99475.0;attach=109448;image)
I am pretty well the same height you are. Keep in mind my arms have Kamali symptoms: they are neither peaked, nor long. Long and flat (Sergio Oliva, Frank McGrath, Chris Cook) is alright, and short and peaked (Arnold, Al Beckles) is alright. But short AND flat arms are a problem! So my 16-17" arms do not look as impressive as someone with superior genetics. If Chris Cook's arms were the same size in the same condition, they would look better since he has longer biceps than I do.
Also, check this out, it's from a thread from getbig back in the day that has since been deleted:
http://www.bodybuildingpro.com/halloweenmrolympia.html
you got very weird back,,its like your arms and delts are developed to almost a cycle of 2 type of level of hormonization and then the back itself is like of a 14 year old kid,,got to work on the lats and the back widness,,maybe its the pose or picture but it look like a lifter arms and delts atached to a 14 year old kid back,,very strange but this can be fixed if you stop working your arms and move to the back,,your delt dont need work either,,once every 3 weeks will sufice
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you got very weird back,,its like your arms and delts are developed to almost a cycle of 2 type of level of hormonization and then the back itself is like of a 14 year old kid,,got to work on the lats and the back widness,,maybe its the pose or picture but it look like a lifter arms and delts atached to a 14 year old kid back,,very strange but this can be fixed if you stop working your arms and move to the back,,your delt dont need work either,,once every 3 weeks will sufice
Yes, I agree with your assessment, my back is very weak, much like my chest. Interestingly, not physically though. I can deadlift 405 for reps for example.
What do you suggest I do for my back?
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Yes, I agree with your assessment, my back is very weak, much like my chest. Interestingly, not physically though. I can deadlift 405 for reps for example.
What do you suggest I do for my back?
Rows on an incline angle.
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Matt C, you goddamn juice monkey. When are you going to come clean about doing Thai Dbol? :D
You're never going to change your proportions either. That's what you're always going to look like, you can only get bigger or smaller.
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you have yoru 19 inch arms because you are hormonized,,you got water bloat as a result of high level of hormones very similar to dianabol bloat,,it can also come from hrt and from andro creames and "the clear" and "the creme",,,those are all drugs ,,real hormones considered drugs wether they are prescribed or not it dont change the picture that they are hormones ,,syntetic hormones,,
infact your arms maybe 19 inch but the main reason for that is because your waist is large and you carry lots of what i call hormone water and fat weight,,those arms would shrink to 16-17 inch if preping for stage maybe 18 inch if preping with hormones
generally speaking DRUGS IS 90% OF BODYBUILDING,,it always was like that ,,always will be like that,,genetics response to hormones and genetic frame that is able to carry this muscle mass and keep it balanced inaddition to drug tolarence since many of the gym rat dont have the high rug tolarence nor the muslce shape and symetry needed for a pro card
any one who ever seen 18 inch arms and was in low single digit bodyfat and under 5'10 has been on hormones one way or another,,the ones with better response take it to the 20 inch while maintaining low singles and the onews with the worse response keep it at 16-17 inch at low single digit while on hormones
truly naturals usually hae no thickness ,,no swole from withing the muscle,,they look weak while low single digit if they ever can get there with out looking like skeletons,,and in most cases true naturals cant get down to under 6% even when very small,,they will usually stop at 7% and go on stage at pretty small size
all of the above are facts writen in stone,,no matter what freak you are something will have to bring this freak out and that somthing is lots of drugs ,,mainly hormones but sadly some other drugs too
Good lord.... ::)
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Are you serious? you really believe this??? I can't even think of an intelligent reply based on my experience and observations in bodybuilding , other than ; " If what you say is 100% true, than why don't we have legions of gym rats that look like exactly like the top guys at the Olympia?"
Matt is 100% on the money. The Beef can lay off training for 4 months, put 500 mgs of Omna in his system and feel The Beef's body changing in two weeks. Add more protein and hit the gym 4 days a week and shit happens.
Like the great 619Rules once said . . . put 4 grams of gear per week in anyone and they can be a national level competetor.
The Beef
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Yes, I agree with your assessment, my back is very weak, much like my chest. Interestingly, not physically though. I can deadlift 405 for reps for example.
What do you suggest I do for my back?
Actually, I don't think he was referring to your lower back. The first thing I noticed on your back is your great lower back development, something you can tell quickly wether or not someone deadlifts. (coach! ;) ) But definitely need to spend more time in the trenches with barbell/dumbell rows!
;)
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you have yoru 19 inch arms because you are hormonized,,you got water bloat as a result of high level of hormones very similar to dianabol bloat,,it can also come from hrt and from andro creames and "the clear" and "the creme",,,those are all drugs ,,real hormones considered drugs wether they are prescribed or not it dont change the picture that they are hormones ,,syntetic hormones,,
infact your arms maybe 19 inch but the main reason for that is because your waist is large and you carry lots of what i call hormone water and fat weight,,those arms would shrink to 16-17 inch if preping for stage maybe 18 inch if preping with hormones
generally speaking DRUGS IS 90% OF BODYBUILDING,,it always was like that ,,always will be like that,,genetics response to hormones and genetic frame that is able to carry this muscle mass and keep it balanced inaddition to drug tolarence since many of the gym rat dont have the high rug tolarence nor the muslce shape and symetry needed for a pro card
any one who ever seen 18 inch arms and was in low single digit bodyfat and under 5'10 has been on hormones one way or another,,the ones with better response take it to the 20 inch while maintaining low singles and the onews with the worse response keep it at 16-17 inch at low single digit while on hormones
truly naturals usually hae no thickness ,,no swole from withing the muscle,,they look weak while low single digit if they ever can get there with out looking like skeletons,,and in most cases true naturals cant get down to under 6% even when very small,,they will usually stop at 7% and go on stage at pretty small size
all of the above are facts writen in stone,,no matter what freak you are something will have to bring this freak out and that somthing is lots of drugs ,,mainly hormones but sadly some other drugs too
Aaah, the wizzard of the drugs weighs in on my thread. Hmmm, yes, I am tad bloated but that is due more to fat than any drug use. My testosterone levels on the prescribed Androgel are in the middle of the normal level , in my case my last levels were 680 mg/dl on the range of 100 -1000 mg/dl. I am not going to waste my time trying to convince you or anyone else that you can make decent gains without drugs. I know what I can do with my regime and am happy and healthy at near 50 now. I have known a few othes that do just fine in building thier physiques without drugs as major factor.
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Here Howie, this picture was when my arms were over 16", but under 17" (pumped/flexed, although I am not sure if they are pumped in the picture.
(http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=99475.0;attach=109448;image)
I am pretty well the same height you are. Keep in mind my arms have Kamali symptoms: they are neither peaked, nor long. Long and flat (Sergio Oliva, Frank McGrath, Chris Cook) is alright, and short and peaked (Arnold, Al Beckles) is alright. But short AND flat arms are a problem! So my 16-17" arms do not look as impressive as someone with superior genetics. If Chris Cook's arms were the same size in the same condition, they would look better since he has longer biceps than I do.
Also, check this out, it's from a thread from getbig back in the day that has since been deleted:
http://www.bodybuildingpro.com/halloweenmrolympia.html
Matt, you have decent base and some impressive delts. Try some strict preacher curls doing heavy drop sets.
Warm up for a couple sets , then put on a wt you can do 6 strict reps with, then strip off a plate from each side ( about 10% of the wt) and do some more reps , repeate for 1 more drop.
Your back work is in need of a major overhaul. I would advise you to use wts that allow you feel the lats work, in and out like a big rubber band. Stick with whey pro 2-3 times per day with a lot of good basic food and keep training.
Thanks for posting the pic, Howard
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Howie, how do you claim natty status when you are on test patches?
I'm a little confused there
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Howie, how do you claim natty status when you are on test patches?
I'm a little confused there
Easy, I never claimed to be 100% lifetime natural and am 100% honest about what drugs I did use , even if was in small amounts and and for 3 years ( 1983-86). Now at age 49 I use Androgel to keep my testosterone levels in the ideal range. This is prescribed by my primary care doc and I get blood work on this and all my key blood hormone/enzyme levels every 2-3 years. It is for health reasons, NOT bodybuilding.
When I competed from 87-95 I did not use ANY drugs or HRT obviously. I won a few natural shows in the 90's
and did so by following the established rules for drugs and drug free time limits. I would NEVER compete in a show that required one to be "lifetime natural" as I am not.
It amazes me how doing ANYTHING related to bodybuilding in very moderate, sensible amounts causes such confusion LOL.
For me my main issue with drugs in bodybuilding is not the use of them by bodybuilders. What bugs me is all the lies, misinformation and crazy crap.
I just don't see why so many in bodybuilding have to be 100% lifetime natty where any drugs are a sin or:
(2) they advocate extrem drug use and freakish physiques as the ideal.
Why not sensible ,safe,open, honest, moderate policy when it comes to drug use??? seriously ???
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You're leaving out a whole other variable here which is genetic response to drugs. Kevin Levrone and Tom Prince look like nothing without hormones but are two of the biggest bodybuilders ever while on. I doubt either would even get a natural pro card.
Keep in mind that one of them has a jacked-up shoulder and can't train heavy anymore (Prince); while the other has trimmed down intentionally to have a leaner look for his fledgling movie career (Levrone).
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Keep in mind that one of them has a jacked-up shoulder and can't train heavy anymore (Prince); while the other has trimmed down intentionally to have a leaner look for his fledgling movie career (Levrone).
Yes, I do remember Tom's shoulder being a mass of crushed cartilage. Kevin has claimed to be trimming down.
The thing is though, even if they were this this thin primarily due to the cessation of gear, they would find an excuse to say that wasn't the case.
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Yes, I do remember Tom's shoulder being a mass of crushed cartilage. Kevin has claimed to be trimming down.
The thing is though, even if they were this this thin primarily due to the cessation of gear, they would find an excuse to say that wasn't the case.
The excuse, in Levrone's case, is his acting career. Frank Sepe did the same, when he pursued modeling full-time. He dropped about 50 lbs. of muscle, and it paid off (literally and figuratively). The irony of it all is that Sepe has claimed that, even with all the muscle he shaved off, some modeling agencies STILL think he's too big.
And, Sepe also made the point that the NPC and IFBB aren't going anywhere. He can always get his lost size back, if he wants to pursue bodybuilding again. The same holds true for Levrone. Prince, however, is another story.
It's not necessarily the case that these bodybuilders would be "thin" due to merely stopping anabolics. Look at Kai Greene. He got his IFBB pro card in 2004. However, he competed as a pro in the WNBF for a while, winning its Mr. Universe and World Championships. That organization has a 7-year-drug-free policy, polygraphs all contestants, and drug-tests everyone who wins prize money.
While it appears that he has foregone his au naturel status, I don't think he would resemble Jimmie "JJ Evans" Walker, if he went back.
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MCWAY I agree with you
I always liked you in a non-cl kind of way
lololoz
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MCWAY I agree with you
I always liked you in a non-cl kind of way
lololoz
Thanks!!!
;D
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you know that Sally McNeil article that you scanned for me back in the day? I bought the original Flex magazine, actually two of them, on ebay or something.
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pro in the WNBF for a while, winning its Mr. Universe and World Championships. That organization has a 7-year-drug-free policy, polygraphs all contestants, and drug-tests everyone who wins prize money.
which doesn`t mean anything. In particular polygraphs mean bullshit.
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which doesn`t mean anything. In particular polygraphs mean bullshit.
The polygraphs are PART of the routine; again, everyone who placed in the money gets drug-tested. And, looking at their laundry list of banned substances, the WNBF runs a pretty tight shift.
There may be some folks who try to buck the system. But, my take is why bother. If you're going to go through all that trouble to take anabolics, why not just enter an open show in the NPC?
My point was, overall, that simply stopping the use of anabolics doesn't necessarily mean someone's going to revert to being a twig. Greene's WNBF physique, compared to the one he currently sports now, makes that point.
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you know that Sally McNeil article that you scanned for me back in the day? I bought the original Flex magazine, actually two of them, on ebay or something.
Congratulations!!! If I remember correctly, one of the pages didn't quite come out right.
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The excuse, in Levrone's case, is his acting career. Frank Sepe did the same, when he pursued modeling full-time. He dropped about 50 lbs. of muscle, and it paid off (literally and figuratively). The irony of it all is that Sepe has claimed that, even with all the muscle he shaved off, some modeling agencies STILL think he's too big.
And, Sepe also made the point that the NPC and IFBB aren't going anywhere. He can always get his lost size back, if he wants to pursue bodybuilding again. The same holds true for Levrone. Prince, however, is another story.
It's not necessarily the case that these bodybuilders would be "thin" due to merely stopping anabolics. Look at Kai Greene. He got his IFBB pro card in 2004. However, he competed as a pro in the WNBF for a while, winning its Mr. Universe and World Championships. That organization has a 7-year-drug-free policy, polygraphs all contestants, and drug-tests everyone who wins prize money.
While it appears that he has foregone his au naturel status, I don't think he would resemble Jimmie "JJ Evans" Walker, if he went back.
very few in the natural shows ae truly naturals,,they come from backround full of hormones,,when i say full of hormones i mean they encountered and used hormones and still do it while competing naturally at the right time ofcourse ,,,the stupid ones get cought via the easy to pass test but then again they are stupid since they never learned hormones from a half life time perspectvive which is the first and formost rule for any bodybuilder in a natural show,,
UNTIL THERE IS CONSISTENT BLOOD TESTING THERE IS NO NATURAL SHOWS BECAUSE INTENTION IS NOT ENOUGH ,,PEE PEE TEST IS A JOKE,,AND LIE DETECTOR IS WORSE THAN A JOKE SINCE EVERY ONE CAN PASS LIE DETECTOR ITS THE EASIEST THING TO DUE IF TAKING THE RIGHT MEDS BEFORE
stop preaching about natural shows,,they are not existing ,,the competitors all been to hormones were are and will be,,they dont use as many oils and they rely on orals a lot but its all the same,,
friends PLEASE understand ,,if you want gh15 to take this sport and give it some positive light in congress and get yoru hormones a lot less controled,,start with the simple fact of understanding the reality of what it takes to be a bodybuilder,,
most of you understand it and learned a lot in the last 2 years that gh15 has been here,,i expect you to wize up and help gh15 this coming fall and help in general by not talking too much about natural ,,its the lies that got this sport into a cult ,,the goverment do not like the lies,,lies start with simple things such as claiminign for truly natural shows like muscle mania and team universe while having homonized bodybuilders on stage
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The polygraphs are PART of the routine; again, everyone who placed in the money gets drug-tested. And, looking at their laundry list of banned substances, the WNBF runs a pretty tight shift.
There may be some folks who try to buck the system. But, my take is why bother. If you're going to go through all that trouble to take anabolics, why not just enter an open show in the NPC?
My point was, overall, that simply stopping the use of anabolics doesn't necessarily mean someone's going to revert to being a twig. Greene's WNBF physique, compared to the one he currently sports now, makes that point.
Kai was naural when he won his WNBF titles as you aldready pointed out they run a vergy tight ship and do both urine tests and a real, extensive polygraph as a back up.
You will never get the "it's all about the drugs" crowd to change their thinking however.
This bunch comes in a few basic forms:
1. Least common of the drugs are everything group are the actual roid dealers and drug gurus. Ened the importantce of drugs and they are out of business.
2. The pro wannbes are next. These are mostly guys that don't have the genetics or whatever to be a pro of even win a major show, etc. Take away the delusional idea that success is mostly drugs and you take away thier crazy hope for the big time. Reality bites for this group.
3. The hardcore fan is the most common. This bunch just plain likes freaks on stage. Most are not the typical schmoes, but rather hardcore gym rats that admire big freaks for whatever reasons.
Take away extreme drug use from pro bodybuilding and you get guys more like Zane , which they don't like.
They are all for massive, freaky muscle over classical lines and Zane physiques.
For the 3 sub groups a sport that was not big into drugs and freaks, is something they have no interst in.
Thus, a drug free sport is no sport at all for them.
Howard
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very few in the natural shows ae truly naturals,,they come from backround full of hormones,,when i say full of hormones i mean they encountered and used hormones and still do it while competing naturally at the right time ofcourse ,,,the stupid ones get cought via the easy to pass test but then again they are stupid since they never learned hormones from a half life time perspectvive which is the first and formost rule for any bodybuilder in a natural show,,
UNTIL THERE IS CONSISTENT BLOOD TESTING THERE IS NO NATURAL SHOWS BECAUSE INTENTION IS NOT ENOUGH ,,PEE PEE TEST IS A JOKE,,AND LIE DETECTOR IS WORSE THAN A JOKE SINCE EVERY ONE CAN PASS LIE DETECTOR ITS THE EASIEST THING TO DUE IF TAKING THE RIGHT MEDS BEFORE
stop preaching about natural shows,,they are not existing ,,the competitors all been to hormones were are and will be,,they dont use as many oils and they rely on orals a lot but its all the same,,
friends PLEASE understand ,,if you want gh15 to take this sport and give it some positive light in congress and get yoru hormones a lot less controled,,start with the simple fact of understanding the reality of what it takes to be a bodybuilder,,
most of you understand it and learned a lot in the last 2 years that gh15 has been here,,i expect you to wize up and help gh15 this coming fall and help in general by not talking too much about natural ,,its the lies that got this sport into a cult ,,the goverment do not like the lies,,lies start with simple things such as claiminign for truly natural shows like muscle mania and team universe while having homonized bodybuilders on stage
GH15 , you seem to be an intelligent fellow but also appear to have real vested interest and passion for drug use in bodybuilding. In my opinion, it is just as wrong to see one can't build a decent physique without drugs as it is to say that drugs don't mae any difference. Granted some guys in natural shows may have dabbled in small amounts of drugs over the years, but few use them when they do natural shows. You may consider a more moderate and realistic view on this topic. I have seen too many decent physiqes built with no drugs over my years in bodybuilding. granted you won't see 250 lb plus freaks but you can see plenty if impressive guys doing quite well without drugs.I have seen a lot of great drug free physiques at body wts from 165 to 215. All the best, Howard
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165lb on stage? 5'10 5'9 maybe 5'8 natural 6-7% MAYBE,,200lb? in yoru dreams unless the guy stands 6'4 even then shredded guys at 6'4 that weight 197lb...they all on orals from winstrol to anavar to other goodies all in chase after growth all the time,,,friend all the sources in europe are loaded with 10s of thousands of orders for years,,who order it?? the 50 year old mother of 4? sometimes,,but mostly the local "natural",,the gym rat and the professional,,
everything you say would be good if you told it to someone else nto to gh15,,gh15 simply knows who buy what and where the money come from and goes to
all drugs friends,,all drugs that should not even be considered drugs since they are hormones natural to the body ,,remember i know what is a true natural lifter,, i know the muscle diameter that natural poses ,,,no one on stage now days is truly natural that include many peope who made their ntural career and money out of scam ,,,there is a minimal % stil natural but trust me THEY LOSE EVERY SINGLE SHOW THEY ENTER AND IN MOST CASES DO NOT PLACE OR PLACE LOW
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Kai was naural when he won his WNBF titles
must be the best natural I have ever seen and I have been to many WNBF shows in my country.
as you aldready pointed out they run a vergy tight ship and do both urine tests and a real, extensive polygraph as a back up. You will never get the "it's all about the drugs" crowd to change their thinking however.This bunch comes in a few basic forms
again urine testing at only one point of time means bullshit. Also in some countries even the IFBB tests competitors qualifying for international amateur events respectively winners of these events. Polygraphs even mean horseshit. In most intelligent European they are not even allowed for court.
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1 hour training/day + no posing practice + some cardio = Arnold Classic champion.
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Howie
stop
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Howie
stop
Fvck, Mike. Are you falling for this gh15 shit????? Be your best without outside hormonal help and concentrate on something thats for real in life....education or" paying" sports.
Take your genetics as far as you can and move on..... Some guys are gonna have incredible genetics with minimal efforts. Shit i had a freind in 9th grade that was ripped and muscular enough to win a state title but wasnt interested in competiting. Everyone has talents that others may not have.
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very few in the natural shows ae truly naturals,,they come from backround full of hormones,,when i say full of hormones i mean they encountered and used hormones and still do it while competing naturally at the right time ofcourse ,,,the stupid ones get cought via the easy to pass test but then again they are stupid since they never learned hormones from a half life time perspectvive which is the first and formost rule for any bodybuilder in a natural show,,
UNTIL THERE IS CONSISTENT BLOOD TESTING THERE IS NO NATURAL SHOWS BECAUSE INTENTION IS NOT ENOUGH ,,PEE PEE TEST IS A JOKE,,AND LIE DETECTOR IS WORSE THAN A JOKE SINCE EVERY ONE CAN PASS LIE DETECTOR ITS THE EASIEST THING TO DUE IF TAKING THE RIGHT MEDS BEFORE
stop preaching about natural shows,,they are not existing ,,the competitors all been to hormones were are and will be,,they dont use as many oils and they rely on orals a lot but its all the same,
friends PLEASE understand ,,if you want gh15 to take this sport and give it some positive light in congress and get yoru hormones a lot less controled,,start with the simple fact of understanding the reality of what it takes to be a bodybuilder,,
most of you understand it and learned a lot in the last 2 years that gh15 has been here,,i expect you to wize up and help gh15 this coming fall and help in general by not talking too much about natural ,,its the lies that got this sport into a cult ,,the goverment do not like the lies,,lies start with simple things such as claiminign for truly natural shows like muscle mania and team universe while having homonized bodybuilders on stage
What you've done over the last two years is provide plenty of slapstick comedy, especially from your screwball claims of being an IFBB pro (a top-10 Olympia placer to boot). In fact, you were the one that hinted that you may actually be a FEMALE bodybuilder, pretty much deep-sixing your previous, but utterly silly claims.
On top of that, you've even advocated lying to make a living in bodybuilding, except when someone with a fairly-decent physique claims to be natural or drug-free. Then, it's time for your pitiful attempt at outrage.
Fvck, Mike. Are you falling for this gh15 shit????? Be your best without outside hormonal help and concentrate on something thats for real in life....education or" paying" sports.
Take your genetics as far as you can and move on..... Some guys are gonna have incredible genetics with minimal efforts. Shit i had a freind in 9th grade that was ripped and muscular enough to win a state title but wasnt interested in competiting. Everyone has talents that others may not have.
AMEN to that!!
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Kai was naural when he won his WNBF titles as you aldready pointed out they run a vergy tight ship and do both urine tests and a real, extensive polygraph as a back up.
You will never get the "it's all about the drugs" crowd to change their thinking however.
This bunch comes in a few basic forms:
1. Least common of the drugs are everything group are the actual roid dealers and drug gurus. Ened the importantce of drugs and they are out of business.
2. The pro wannbes are next. These are mostly guys that don't have the genetics or whatever to be a pro of even win a major show, etc. Take away the delusional idea that success is mostly drugs and you take away thier crazy hope for the big time. Reality bites for this group.
3. The hardcore fan is the most common. This bunch just plain likes freaks on stage. Most are not the typical schmoes, but rather hardcore gym rats that admire big freaks for whatever reasons.
Take away extreme drug use from pro bodybuilding and you get guys more like Zane , which they don't like.
They are all for massive, freaky muscle over classical lines and Zane physiques.
For the 3 sub groups a sport that was not big into drugs and freaks, is something they have no interst in.
Thus, a drug free sport is no sport at all for them.
Howard
After looking at their "banned substance" list, running a tight ship may have been an understatement. Heck, the WNBF is almost Draconian in their policy. You can't even use DHEA, the one prohormone that the government didn't ban a few years back.
Even supplements like Gaspari's Halodrol and Novedex XT are on the verboten list. If that 7-year drug-free policy applies to these OTC supplements, that would mean if you've used them this year, you'd have to stop and not take them (or anything similar) yet not be able to compete in a WNBF show until 2015.
And, if you pop positive, you're gone for at least 7 years, not merely disqualified for a particular contest.
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WNBF is almost Draconian in their policy
policy ≠ reality
Hope this helps.
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policy ≠ reality
Hope this helps.
Reality is: some cheating competitors ≠ all cheating competitors.
Hope that helps. :)
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What you've done over the last two years is provide plenty of slapstick comedy, especially from your screwball claims of being an IFBB pro (a top-10 Olympia placer to boot). In fact, you were the one that hinted that you may actually be a FEMALE bodybuilder, pretty much deep-sixing your previous, but utterly silly claims.
On top of that, you've even advocated lying to make a living in bodybuilding, except when someone with a fairly-decent physique claims to be natural or drug-free. Then, it's time for your pitiful attempt at outrage.
AMEN to that!!
what ive done over the last 2 years is open the eyes of the misguided and got them out of illusion and into reality ,,the comedy aspect is all purposly done since everything is delivered beter via comedy,,the main points were delivered and understood though ,,i have questions over questions waiting for answers maybe you want to answer them it will help gh15 a lot ,,
the main question you should ask yourself is WHO BENEFIT FROM STANDING ON SUPOSDLY NATURAL STAGE ALL HORMONIZED,,YOU KNOW WHO? THOSE GUYS WITH LESS THAN PHENOMINAL RESPOND TO HORMONES THAT NEED THOSE SO CALLED NATURAL COMPETITION INORDER TO GET A CAREER GOIGN OR A MAGAZINE PAGE,,IN REALITY THEY ARE THE WORST LIARS AND PART BIG PART OF THE REASON WE AS A SPORT ARE CONSIDERED A CULT,,A CULT IS WHERE EVERY ATIVITY IS KEPT IN A VERY SMALL GROUP ALL HIDDEN FROM MAIN SOCIETY ,,A CULT WILL COUNT AS A BETRAY ANYONE WHO GO AGAINST IT AND GH15 DID,,I WASNT PUNISHED BECAUSE I WAS SMART! WHAT GH15 DID IS OPEN THE EYES OF 10S OD THOUSANDS FITNESS ENTHUSIASTIC TO WHAT IT REALLY TAKES TO COMPETE IN BODYBUILDING AND ACTUALLY DO SOME DAMAGE OR GET A MAGAZINE COVER PAGE,,FOR GOD SAKE EVEN THE HOMO MAGAZINES ARE ALL FULL OF HORMONIZED HOMOS ON THE COVERS,,I TOLD YOU BEFORE HERE THE TOPPEST SOURCES FROM EUROPE MAKE SO MUCH MONEY THEY OWN 3 HOUSES BEFORE YOU BUY A TV,,YOU SIMPLY DONT GET IT FRIEND AND MOST LIKLEY NEVER WILL,,
yes bodybuilding can be done naturally ,,NO it is not being done so now days,,no there is no test since no blood test is taken on regular basis and YES it can be accomplished but money for this test is too much and bodybuilding is not the most profitable sport and i do believe hormones should be used in bodybuilding and so does any one in the ifbb and npc but you need to be politically correct untill the due date when everythign becomes less controlled and more reasonable,,
i can assure you that bodybuilders on natural stage never touch 200lb at 4-5% at 5'10 or under,,not naturally,,the best naturals with the greatest genetics as you like to call it with huge potential are 5'6 175lb on stage and they also play with cocktails of trenbolone ace and winstrols ,,suspensions and winstrol,,those are the best of the best "naturals"
gh is common for naturals to take in low doses since no one will ever know,,insulin is natural no one will know since so many people diabetic no one can say nothing,,duretics is something naturals try to stay away from but many of them use those too as of 2008,,
you will notice something very common with all hormonized people in culding females,,its a secret gh15 tellin you here that no one pay attention to,,,every hormonized person at some point look like they got down syndrom type of face,competing "naturally" wont help you there see skip ,,its just a down syndrom face due to syntetic use of hormones,,most of the hormonizedd lifters also look 5-10 years older than their actual age but that involve heavier use of hormones and you will find it mainly on npc and ifbb stages not "natural" stages since the naturals use only what they have to inorder to place well or win a show they are what we call semi pros like semi pro football leage if you know what i mean,,they use only what they need inordee to keep the illusion alive
*gh15 is top 6 not only top 10,,but yes top 6 is part of top 10 so ok
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what ive done over the last 2 years is open the eyes of the misguided and got them out of illusion and into reality ,,the comedy aspect is all purposly done since everything is delivered beter via comedy,,the main points were delivered and understood though ,,i have questions over questions waiting for answers maybe you want to answer them it will help gh15 a lot ,,
the main question you should ask yourself is WHO BENEFIT FROM STANDING ON SUPOSDLY NATURAL STAGE ALL HORMONIZED,,YOU KNOW WHO? THOSE GUYS WITH LESS THAN PHENOMINAL RESPOND TO HORMONES THAT NEED THOSE SO CALLED NATURAL COMPETITION INORDER TO GET A CAREER GOIGN OR A MAGAZINE PAGE,,IN REALITY THEY ARE THE WORST LIARS AND PART BIG PART OF THE REASON WE AS A SPORT ARE CONSIDERED A CULT,,A CULT IS WHERE EVERY ATIVITY IS KEPT IN A VERY SMALL GROUP ALL HIDDEN FROM MAIN SOCIETY ,,A CULT WILL COUNT AS A BETRAY ANYONE WHO GO AGAINST IT AND GH15 DID,,I WASNT PUNISHED BECAUSE I WAS SMART! WHAT GH15 DID IS OPEN THE EYES OF 10S OD THOUSANDS FITNESS ENTHUSIASTIC TO WHAT IT REALLY TAKES TO COMPETE IN BODYBUILDING AND ACTUALLY DO SOME DAMAGE OR GET A MAGAZINE COVER PAGE,,FOR GOD SAKE EVEN THE HOMO MAGAZINES ARE ALL FULL OF HORMONIZED HOMOS ON THE COVERS,,I TOLD YOU BEFORE HERE THE TOPPEST SOURCES FROM EUROPE MAKE SO MUCH MONEY THEY OWN 3 HOUSES BEFORE YOU BUY A TV,,YOU SIMPLY DONT GET IT FRIEND AND MOST LIKLEY NEVER WILL,,
yes bodybuilding can be done naturally ,,NO it is not being done so now days,,no there is no test since no blood test is taken on regular basis and YES it can be accomplished but money for this test is too much and bodybuilding is not the most profitable sport and i do believe hormones should be used in bodybuilding and so does any one in the ifbb and npc but you need to be politically correct untill the due date when everythign becomes less controlled and more reasonable,,
i can assure you that bodybuilders on natural stage never touch 200lb at 4-5% at 5'10 or under,,not naturally,,the best naturals with the greatest genetics as you like to call it with huge potential are 5'6 175lb on stage and they also play with cocktails of trenbolone ace and winstrols ,,suspensions and winstrol,,those are the best of the best "naturals"
gh is common for naturals to take in low doses since no one will ever know,,insulin is natural no one will know since so many people diabetic no one can say nothing,,duretics is something naturals try to stay away from but many of them use those too as of 2008,,
you will notice something very common with all hormonized people in culding females,,its a secret gh15 tellin you here that no one pay attention to,,,every hormonized person at some point look like they got down syndrom type of face,competing "naturally" wont help you there see skip ,,its just a down syndrom face due to syntetic use of hormones,,most of the hormonizedd lifters also look 5-10 years older than their actual age but that involve heavier use of hormones and you will find it mainly on npc and ifbb stages not "natural" stages since the naturals use only what they have to inorder to place well or win a show they are what we call semi pros like semi pro football leage if you know what i mean,,they use only what they need inordee to keep the illusion alive
*gh15 is top 6 not only top 10,,but yes top 6 is part of top 10 so ok
Yes. gh15 is top 6 and admits hes never taken steroids......down syndrome......LOL.
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what ive done over the last 2 years is open the eyes of the misguided and got them out of illusion and into reality ,,the comedy aspect is all purposly done since everything is delivered beter via comedy,,the main points were delivered and understood though ,,i have questions over questions waiting for answers maybe you want to answer them it will help gh15 a lot ,,
the main question you should ask yourself is WHO BENEFIT FROM STANDING ON SUPOSDLY NATURAL STAGE ALL HORMONIZED,,YOU KNOW WHO? THOSE GUYS WITH LESS THAN PHENOMINAL RESPOND TO HORMONES THAT NEED THOSE SO CALLED NATURAL COMPETITION INORDER TO GET A CAREER GOIGN OR A MAGAZINE PAGE,,IN REALITY THEY ARE THE WORST LIARS AND PART BIG PART OF THE REASON WE AS A SPORT ARE CONSIDERED A CULT,,A CULT IS WHERE EVERY ATIVITY IS KEPT IN A VERY SMALL GROUP ALL HIDDEN FROM MAIN SOCIETY ,,A CULT WILL COUNT AS A BETRAY ANYONE WHO GO AGAINST IT AND GH15 DID,,I WASNT PUNISHED BECAUSE I WAS SMART! WHAT GH15 DID IS OPEN THE EYES OF 10S OD THOUSANDS FITNESS ENTHUSIASTIC TO WHAT IT REALLY TAKES TO COMPETE IN BODYBUILDING AND ACTUALLY DO SOME DAMAGE OR GET A MAGAZINE COVER PAGE,,FOR GOD SAKE EVEN THE HOMO MAGAZINES ARE ALL FULL OF HORMONIZED HOMOS ON THE COVERS,,I TOLD YOU BEFORE HERE THE TOPPEST SOURCES FROM EUROPE MAKE SO MUCH MONEY THEY OWN 3 HOUSES BEFORE YOU BUY A TV,,YOU SIMPLY DONT GET IT FRIEND AND MOST LIKLEY NEVER WILL,,
yes bodybuilding can be done naturally ,,NO it is not being done so now days,,no there is no test since no blood test is taken on regular basis and YES it can be accomplished but money for this test is too much and bodybuilding is not the most profitable sport and i do believe hormones should be used in bodybuilding and so does any one in the ifbb and npc but you need to be politically correct untill the due date when everythign becomes less controlled and more reasonable,,
i can assure you that bodybuilders on natural stage never touch 200lb at 4-5% at 5'10 or under,,not naturally,,the best naturals with the greatest genetics as you like to call it with huge potential are 5'6 175lb on stage and they also play with cocktails of trenbolone ace and winstrols ,,suspensions and winstrol,,those are the best of the best "naturals"
gh is common for naturals to take in low doses since no one will ever know,,insulin is natural no one will know since so many people diabetic no one can say nothing,,duretics is something naturals try to stay away from but many of them use those too as of 2008,,
you will notice something very common with all hormonized people in culding females,,its a secret gh15 tellin you here that no one pay attention to,,,every hormonized person at some point look like they got down syndrom type of face,competing "naturally" wont help you there see skip ,,its just a down syndrom face due to syntetic use of hormones,,most of the hormonizedd lifters also look 5-10 years older than their actual age but that involve heavier use of hormones and you will find it mainly on npc and ifbb stages not "natural" stages since the naturals use only what they have to inorder to place well or win a show they are what we call semi pros like semi pro football leage if you know what i mean,,they use only what they need inordee to keep the illusion alive
*gh15 is top 6 not only top 10,,but yes top 6 is part of top 10 so ok
The only way you make top 6 at the Olympia is if the other 5 competitors do indeed have Down's Syndrome (and are paraplegics).
Make up your mind. Are you a male or female bodybuilder? Is lying to get over in bodybuilder something you condone or you don't condone?
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in order to give the information gh15 does there must be some lies,,you dont see any other professional come out with the dirty loundry do you? in any case wether im a female or male shoudnt matter ,,what matters is that inorder for bodybuilding to be live and well 10 years from now and be more accepted the goverment need to put inplace amendments and new laws thus making hormones less controlled ,,doesnt mean complteely none controlled but less! and the so called NATURALS do not help in that they just make people laugh at all this big lie ,,there is diff between white lies and black lies,,,black lies are hard to recover from and can diminish the sport ,,who gh15 is shouldnt matter ask any professional in the business and any amatuer that ever had anything to do with bodybuilding and you will see that this specific sport takes a lot of chemicals and the goverment knows it ,,the goverment dont like being lied to and what we as cult do is lie to it on regular basis ,,when hormones are less controlled you can go and do your "natural shows" but guess what ,,what hormones are less controled there will be no more so called natural shows because every one will get hormones and be on level field and no more lies and excuses
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in order to give the information gh15 does there must be some lies,,you dont see any other professional come out with the dirty loundry do you? in any case wether im a female or male shoudnt matter ,,what matters is that inorder for bodybuilding to be live and well 10 years from now and be more accepted the goverment need to put inplace amendments and new laws thus making hormones less controlled ,,doesnt mean complteely none controlled but less! and the so called NATURALS do not help in that they just make people laugh at all this big lie ,,there is diff between white lies and black lies,,,black lies are hard to recover from and can diminish the sport ,,who gh15 is shouldnt matter ask any professional in the business and any amatuer that ever had anything to do with bodybuilding and you will see that this specific sport takes a lot of chemicals and the goverment knows it ,,the goverment dont like being lied to and what we as cult do is lie to it on regular basis ,,when hormones are less controlled you can go and do your "natural shows" but guess what ,,what hormones are less controled there will be no more so called natural shows because every one will get hormones and be on level field and no more lies and excuses
The government, by and large, could care less about bodybuilding. Otherwise, there'd be raids at Gold's Gym franchises across the country. Not to mention the minor fact that the second-biggest bodybuildng contest in the world is sponsored by the governor of one of the largest states in the country, which at one time was the "Mecca" of bodybuilding.
Your "black lies" vs. "white lies" is even more pitifully funny than the rest of the gibberish you just posted. Organizations like the WNBF are hardly hurting bodybuilding. As I've suggested before, I suspected that (assuming you actually are a bodybuilder) you are little more than a disgruntled competitor, who tired using roids, enter a drug-tested natural competiton, and STILL got your behind kicked.
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Fvck, Mike. Are you falling for this gh15 shit????? Be your best without outside hormonal help and concentrate on something thats for real in life....education or" paying" sports.
Take your genetics as far as you can and move on..... Some guys are gonna have incredible genetics with minimal efforts. Shit i had a freind in 9th grade that was ripped and muscular enough to win a state title but wasnt interested in competiting. Everyone has talents that others may not have.
For some reason(s) that are his business, Mike A. deson't like my posts, threads or what I have to say.
That is his choice and I still respect his positions and efforts in his own bodybuilding.
Yes, warhorse you really cut to the real nature of my post here. Bodybuilding , (in my oinion)was never meant to be an end all/be all kind of pro sport. I liked it better when the amatuer AAU Mr America was the big deal and guys took pride in going for a win or top place in their state meets, etc.
GH15, would like everyone intersted in bodybuilding to think it all about drugs and little else. That is a pretty extreme, narrow minded statement. As you pointed out with your HS athletes example, some guys looked ripped just walking around, due to awesome genetics.
I am 5'9" and was able to place in the top 3 mens open at age 20 at 185 lbs after only 2 yrs of serious lifting at age 20. I barely knew what a steroid was and like many of those I lifted with, wouldn't have known where or how to get them if we wanted to back then in ol' NH. GH15 can give all his ideas and theories about how limited and pathetic drug free bodybuilders are. I know for a fact what I did, without drugs ( from 78-81) and ( 87-95). I compted at a ripped 200 at my drug free peak in 1994 and know others that didn't use any juice that looked decent in local/state/regional shows. Gh15 can spout his pro drug rhetoric all he wants and some will buy it, others like us won't.
Once again, saying drugs are EVERYTHING and NOBODY can make gains without them, is like saying drugs don't make difference. Both kinds of statements are extreme, narrow minded and over generalized.
Reality is a lot more in the shade of grey , than balck or white.
Howard
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For some reason(s) that are his business, Mike A. deson't like my posts, threads or what I have to say.
That is his choice and I still respect his positions and efforts in his own bodybuilding.
Yes, warhorse you really cut to the real nature of my post here. Bodybuilding , (in my oinion)was never meant to be an end all/be all kind of pro sport. I liked it better when the amatuer AAU Mr America was the big deal and guys took pride in going for a win or top place in their state meets, etc.
GH15, would like everyone intersted in bodybuilding to think it all about drugs and little else. That is a pretty extreme, narrow minded statement. As you pointed out with your HS athletes example, some guys looked ripped just walking around, due to awesome genetics.
I am 5'9" and was able to place in the top 3 mens open at age 20 at 185 lbs after only 2 yrs of serious lifting at age 20. I barely knew what a steroid was and like many of those I lifted with, wouldn't have known where or how to get them if we wanted to back then in ol' NH. GH15 can give all his ideas and theories about how limited and pathetic drug free bodybuilders are. I know for a fact what I did, without drugs ( from 78-81) and ( 87-95). I compted at a ripped 200 at my drug free peak in 1994 and know others that didn't use any juice that looked decent in local/state/regional shows. Gh15 can spout his pro drug rhetoric all he wants and some will buy it, others like us won't.
Once again, saying drugs are EVERYTHING and NOBODY can make gains without them, is like saying drugs don't make difference. Both kinds of statements are extreme, narrow minded and over generalized.
Reality is a lot more in the shade of grey , than balck or white.
Howard
Damn right. We dont need to teach our kids to take drugs to compete in sports. I know its common, but lets teach some individual common sense too. Get a good education and a good job. Having a 20" arm isnt gonna make you money in the long run.
Be a balanced person that can talk bout a variety of subjects....That will suprise people because they expect you to talk about yourself if you have a bod.... :-\
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Damn right. We dont need to teach our kids to take drugs to compete in sports. I know its common, but lets teach some individual common sense too. Get a good education and a good job. Having a 20" arm isnt gonna make you money in the long run.
Be a balanced person that can talk bout a variety of subjects....That will suprise people because they expect you to talk about yourself if you have a bod.... :-\
I agree being honest and open with a position of reason and moderation is always best in my opinion. Look at the sports icon , ARNOLD, than man himself .
The reason he is the biggest name EVER in the history of BB is that he made it big in popular fields outside of bodybuilding ( movies, politics, etc) Sime may not realize it but Arnold made his first big bucks in real estate many yeras ago in S. Cal.
I honestly don't see anything all that horrible about moderate steroid use for personal reasons. I also know that plenty of athletes have gotten pretty damn big and strong by just busting ass in the gym over the years.
Howard
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For some reason(s) that are his business, Mike A. deson't like my posts, threads or what I have to say.
That is his choice and I still respect his positions and efforts in his own bodybuilding.
Yes, warhorse you really cut to the real nature of my post here. Bodybuilding , (in my oinion)was never meant to be an end all/be all kind of pro sport. I liked it better when the amatuer AAU Mr America was the big deal and guys took pride in going for a win or top place in their state meets, etc.
GH15, would like everyone intersted in bodybuilding to think it all about drugs and little else. That is a pretty extreme, narrow minded statement. As you pointed out with your HS athletes example, some guys looked ripped just walking around, due to awesome genetics.
I am 5'9" and was able to place in the top 3 mens open at age 20 at 185 lbs after only 2 yrs of serious lifting at age 20. I barely knew what a steroid was and like many of those I lifted with, wouldn't have known where or how to get them if we wanted to back then in ol' NH. GH15 can give all his ideas and theories about how limited and pathetic drug free bodybuilders are. I know for a fact what I did, without drugs ( from 78-81) and ( 87-95). I compted at a ripped 200 at my drug free peak in 1994 and know others that didn't use any juice that looked decent in local/state/regional shows. Gh15 can spout his pro drug rhetoric all he wants and some will buy it, others like us won't.
Once again, saying drugs are EVERYTHING and NOBODY can make gains without them, is like saying drugs don't make difference. Both kinds of statements are extreme, narrow minded and over generalized.
Reality is a lot more in the shade of grey , than balck or white.
Howard
pay attention to the numbers you say 180lb !! you competed at 180lb ! defenitely wasnt at 3-4% trust me on that,,in additionin the 80s you have done drugs ,,you were not natural you were clean and even that i very much doubt,,looking at you one time these days the arm scream dianabol and testo wether it is creme form liquid form it doesnt matter,,you simply got the hormone level high enough to producte side effects that are result of hormone use at older age and you do not use the ae and ai to prevent those sides so its very obvious,,notice when you flex your arm where the water is and yes it is water not fat ,,it is water that held between the muscle andd skin due to the use of hormons thus giving you the ability to claim 19 inch arms in addition to many years of training but those hormones with out them my friend yu owill sit at 16 inch arms even after those 20 years of training,,none in bodybuilding are truly natural on solid food and thats it,,no one!
remember you said 2 years fo SERIOUS LIFTING and all you could achieve is 180lb on stage and far from ripped as ripped for you those days and now days is most likley 6-8% like most locals,,
the reason i even answer those redicoulous posts on this thread is because i want the youngsters to read my posts when they go back years from now and understand what i was talking about,,it is for them i write this,,
when you competed at 200lb you may have been CLEAN but no where near 4-5% ,,you know it and gh15 knows it,,
i hear on this board sometimes redicoulous claims saying i did this and that i was 230lb naturally at single digit drug free at 5'8 ,,doesnt work this way friends,,most of thsoe claimers are liars and severely insecure and always up to prove something thats why taking bodybuilding to begin with ,,
get the word 200lb /6%/5'9out of your head if you are truly natural ,,you simply wont get there,,you wont have the thickness and the fulness ,,naturals are swimming in the 140-180lb swimming pool and even they use as much shit as they can from adro popers to sdi craps ,,what they dont know is that half of this shit m1t for example is aas
to mcowy i wont even bother answering,,the fella is out of his mind
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wrong. ^^^^
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gh15 having a roid rage meltdown of epic proportions.
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pay attention to the numbers you say 180lb !! you competed at 180lb ! defenitely wasnt at 3-4% trust me on that,,in additionin the 80s you have done drugs ,,you were not natural you were clean and even that i very much doubt,,looking at you one time these days the arm scream dianabol and testo wether it is creme form liquid form it doesnt matter,,you simply got the hormone level high enough to producte side effects that are result of hormone use at older age and you do not use the ae and ai to prevent those sides so its very obvious,,notice when you flex your arm where the water is and yes it is water not fat ,,it is water that held between the muscle andd skin due to the use of hormons thus giving you the ability to claim 19 inch arms in addition to many years of training but those hormones with out them my friend yu owill sit at 16 inch arms even after those 20 years of training,,none in bodybuilding are truly natural on solid food and thats it,,no one!
remember you said 2 years fo SERIOUS LIFTING and all you could achieve is 180lb on stage and far from ripped as ripped for you those days and now days is most likley 6-8% like most locals,,
the reason i even answer those redicoulous posts on this thread is because i want the youngsters to read my posts when they go back years from now and understand what i was talking about,,it is for them i write this,,
when you competed at 200lb you may have been CLEAN but no where near 4-5% ,,you know it and gh15 knows it,,
i hear on this board sometimes redicoulous claims saying i did this and that i was 230lb naturally at single digit drug free at 5'8 ,,doesnt work this way friends,,most of thsoe claimers are liars and severely insecure and always up to prove something thats why taking bodybuilding to begin with ,,
get the word 200lb /6%/5'9out of your head if you are truly natural ,,you simply wont get there,,you wont have the thickness and the fulness ,,naturals are swimming in the 140-180lb swimming pool and even they use as much shit as they can from adro popers to sdi craps ,,what they dont know is that half of this shit m1t for example is aas
to mcowy i wont even bother answering,,the fella is out of his mind
Why you refuse to even accept the idea that a guy can make dcent gains without drugs is beyond me, but to each his own. I know some folks that think we never landed on the moon and it is some secret cover up LOL.
The world is amde of all kinds and you can think and post what you want GH15. I know from my own personal experience and those I have trained with and competed with , that you for an absoulte fact... are 100% WRONG.
Good luck and try to be at least tad bit more open minded for other reasonable positions here ok.
I am not one who says drugs don't work nor do I say the pros and top NPC nationals guys are.
But saying EVERY guy over 180 lbs under 6' tall ripped is on the juice, is like saying nobody ever used drugs in a contest.
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Why you refuse to even accept the idea that a guy can make dcent gains without drugs is beyond me, but to each his own. I know some folks that think we never landed on the moon and it is some secret cover up LOL.
The world is amde of all kinds and you can think and post what you want GH15. I know from my own personal experience and those I have trained with and competed with , that you for an absoulte fact... are 100% WRONG.
Good luck and try to be at least tad bit more open minded for other reasonable positions here ok.
I am not one who says drugs don't work nor do I say the pros and top NPC nationals guys are.
But saying EVERY guy over 180 lbs under 6' tall ripped is on the juice, is like saying nobody ever used drugs in a contest.
nonono mister,,that is not what gh15 said,,pay attention to gh15 broken english and read through the bible
6 feet and 5'10 or 5'9 is a big difference thats for start,,to be exact is about 15-20lb difference since every inch ~ 7lb,,,now this is what gh15 says
ripped as many definitions ,,for most people you included ripped is 6-8% trsut me on that ,,you dont know the beggining of the beggining of what it is to actually be 4% or under very few know it and how to get there and it involves LOTS OF CHEMICALS IF YOU WANT ANY SIZE ON YOU TO REMAIN IN THE SPHERE OF BODYBUILDING
now this is what gh15 say:
you WILL NEVER EVER BE ABLE TO SHOW ME A NATURAL LIFTER OVER 190LB AT LOW SINGLE DIGIT STAGE READY 4-5% AT A HEIGHT OF 5'10 OR UNDER ,,NEVER EVER NEVER
that is what gh15 says,,now i welcoem any one on getbig and aroudn the world to show me the natural ,,true natural that only built his body on food and is 5'10 or less and is 190lb or over at 4-5% bodyfat stage ready,,gh15 would love to be proven wrong,,
they do not exisit ,,not in hawai ,,not in japan ,,not in america,,not in eastern europe,,no where,,natural freaks walk 8-10% and the true freaks are 6'1 230 at 8-10% if they are lucky since most of them walk at 12-13% ,,those are the natural freaks both blakcs and white with blacks at times having better muscle shape thus giving the illusuion of being bigger
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nonono mister,,that is not what gh15 said,,pay attention to gh15 broken english and read through the bible
6 feet and 5'10 or 5'9 is a big difference thats for start,,to be exact is about 15-20lb difference since every inch ~ 7lb,,,now this is what gh15 says
ripped as many definitions ,,for most people you included ripped is 6-8% trsut me on that ,,you dont know the beggining of the beggining of what it is to actually be 4% or under very few know it and how to get there and it involves LOTS OF CHEMICALS IF YOU WANT ANY SIZE ON YOU TO REMAIN IN THE SPHERE OF BODYBUILDING
now this is what gh15 say:
you WILL NEVER EVER BE ABLE TO SHOW ME A NATURAL LIFTER OVER 190LB AT LOW SINGLE DIGIT STAGE READY 4-5% AT A HEIGHT OF 5'10 OR UNDER ,,NEVER EVER NEVER
that is what gh15 says,,now i welcoem any one on getbig and aroudn the world to show me the natural ,,true natural that only built his body on food and is 5'10 or less and is 190lb or over at 4-5% bodyfat stage ready,,gh15 would love to be proven wrong,,
they do not exisit ,,not in hawai ,,not in japan ,,not in america,,not in eastern europe,,no where,,natural freaks walk 8-10% and the true freaks are 6'1 230 at 8-10% if they are lucky since most of them walk at 12-13% ,,those are the natural freaks both blakcs and white with blacks at times having better muscle shape thus giving the illusuion of being bigger
Hmmmm, I was 198-200 at around 4% when I won shows in 1993-95 and had not touched a roid since 1986.
Since it was me and I had kept track of my measurements and knew what I put in my body, I guess YOU would know better.Plus, I know I was NOT the best or biggest guy ever to try bodybuilding without drugs over the years. Of course I only post my real name and ID as well, but then again according to you what I did was impossible and I must not exist LOL.
Your "drugs are everything belief" is skewed and lacks objectivity my friend. In all modesty you sound more like an agenda driven fanatic than an objective person of science, sorry.
I just can't abide by your opinions, thanks, but they lack any scientific nature.
Sincerely, Dr Howard T White Ed D , cert physcs and chem teacher , Ga.
I have held memberships in: American Assoc of physics teahers, American chem society div of chem ed., and Kappa Delta Pi. I graduated Magna cum laude as an undergrad.
teaching positions include;19 yrs HS and adjunct chemisitry faculty at Xavier University and University of New Orleans.
I am also winner of the drug tested NPC 1994 Iroman Natural and drug tested AAU Mr Lousiana 1993 and and was over 190 lbs under 5% fat at a ht of 5'9". When I won those shows I had not used any drugs or steorids since 1986 or 7 yrs drug free.Those are my objective FACTS. I posted a brief listing of my credentials just to show my background and experience in matters of science . I have actually done serious bodybuilding MYSELF with drugs and without them.
I don't speak from just the drug sude or natural side, I have done BOTH.
Please refrain from your anecdotal tales and give me some science and facts please.
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nonono mister,,that is not what gh15 said,,pay attention to gh15 broken english and read through the bible
6 feet and 5'10 or 5'9 is a big difference thats for start,,to be exact is about 15-20lb difference since every inch ~ 7lb,,,now this is what gh15 says
ripped as many definitions ,,for most people you included ripped is 6-8% trsut me on that ,,you dont know the beggining of the beggining of what it is to actually be 4% or under very few know it and how to get there and it involves LOTS OF CHEMICALS IF YOU WANT ANY SIZE ON YOU TO REMAIN IN THE SPHERE OF BODYBUILDING
now this is what gh15 say:
you WILL NEVER EVER BE ABLE TO SHOW ME A NATURAL LIFTER OVER 190LB AT LOW SINGLE DIGIT STAGE READY 4-5% AT A HEIGHT OF 5'10 OR UNDER ,,NEVER EVER NEVER
that is what gh15 says,,now i welcoem any one on getbig and aroudn the world to show me the natural ,,true natural that only built his body on food and is 5'10 or less and is 190lb or over at 4-5% bodyfat stage ready,,gh15 would love to be proven wrong,,
they do not exisit ,,not in hawai ,,not in japan ,,not in america,,not in eastern europe,,no where,,natural freaks walk 8-10% and the true freaks are 6'1 230 at 8-10% if they are lucky since most of them walk at 12-13% ,,those are the natural freaks both blakcs and white with blacks at times having better muscle shape thus giving the illusuion of being bigger
True..4 or 5 % bf would have you looking like a concentration camp victim without the aid of chemicals.
Your body would not be able to hold onto the muscle and would eat away at itself..
God bless chemicals and gh15 8)
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True..4 or 5 % bf would have you looking like a concentration camp victim without the aid of chemicals.
Your body would not be able to hold onto the muscle and would eat away at itself..
God bless chemicals and gh15 8)
LOL, I guess all those old timers from back before 1950 got in a time machine to get the roids huh
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Hmmmm, I was 198-200 at around 4% when I won shows in 1993-95 and had not touched a roid since 1986.
Since it was me and I had kept track of my measurements and knew what I put in my body, I guess YOU would know better.Plus, I know I was NOT the best or biggest guy ever to try bodybuilding without drugs over the years. Of course I only post my real name and ID as well, but then again according to you what I did was impossible and I must not exist LOL.
Your "drugs are everything belief" is skewed and lacks objectivity my friend. In all modesty you sound more like an agenda driven fanatic than an objective person of science, sorry.
I just can't abide by your opinions, thanks, but they lack any scientific nature.
Sincerely, Dr Howard T White Ed D , cert physcs and chem teacher , Ga.
I have held memberships in: American Assoc of physics teahers, American chem society div of chem ed., and Kappa Delta Pi. I graduated Magna cum laude as an undergrad.
teaching positions include;19 yrs HS and adjunct chemisitry faculty at Xavier University and University of New Orleans.
I am also winner of the drug tested NPC 1994 Iroman Natural and drug tested AAU Mr Lousiana 1993 and and was over 190 lbs under 5% fat at a ht of 5'9". When I won those shows I had not used any drugs or steorids since 1986 or 7 yrs drug free.Those are my objective FACTS. I posted a brief listing of my credentials just to show my background and experience in matters of science . I have actually done serious bodybuilding MYSELF with drugs and without them.
I don't seak from just the drug sude or natural side, I have done BOTH.
Please refrain from your anecdotal tales and give me some science and facts please.
let me write in capitals so its clear mr howie
YOU WERE HORMONIZED ,,ONCE HORMONIZED ALWAYS HORMONIZED,,,YOU BEEN TO THE DRUGS ALREADY YOU HAVE CHANGED YOUR BODY IN THE 80S BEFORE THE DRUGS YOU BEEN NOTHING! YOU KNOW IT AND GH15 KNOWS IT
you already done the drugs when you competed at 200lb and 6% later on ,,you say 4 ok 4...,,in any case you already been to the hormones,,its like when you being getting baptist ,,you are changed,,your body has a new point of minimum ,,your body has taken its self to its max,, the 80s was when you did majority of the drugs ,,you did it after too hell you do them today too in some form ,,
howard ,,there is no agenda here it is straight out truth,,i said NATUAL FROM START TO END,,you stopped being natural in the 80s or god knows when maybe before i dont know,,in any case,,you had constantr numebr of years using hormones,,,now you still use hormones ,,and i bet my life that in the 90s when the market was at its glory you did use some too,,
you are taking from the bodybuilder its major tool and its the hormones,,,its like taking the wood from the carpenter,,this arguments of yuors are all good but its 101 bodybuilding youre not 20 and i should be even explaining this to you but you seem blind
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let me write in capitals so its clear mr howie
YOU WERE HORMONIZED ,,ONCE HORMONIZED ALWAYS HORMONIZED,,,YOU BEEN TO THE DRUGS ALREADY YOU HAVE CHANGED YOUR BODY IN THE 80S BEFORE THE DRUGS YOU BEEN NOTHING! YOU KNOW IT AND GH15 KNOWS IT
you already done the drugs when you competed at 200lb and 6% later on ,,you say 4 ok 4...,,in any case you already been to the hormones,,its like when you being getting baptist ,,you are changed,,your body has a new point of minimum ,,your body has taken its self to its max,, the 80s was when you did majority of the drugs ,,you did it after too hell you do them today too in some form ,,
howard ,,there is no agenda here it is straight out truth,,i said NATUAL FROM START TO END,,you stopped being natural in the 80s or god knows when maybe before i dont know,,in any case,,you had constantr numebr of years using hormones,,,now you still use hormones ,,and i bet my life that in the 90s when the market was at its glory you did use some too,,
you are taking from the bodybuilder its major tool and its the hormones,,,its like taking the wood from the carpenter,,this arguments of yuors are all good but its 101 bodybuilding youre not 20 and i should be even explaining this to you but you seem blind
Science is based on actual lab data and facts not opinions you put in caps to make a personal opinion stronger.
If what you said were true, the pros would juice for a couple years and then stay off and keep the same muscle for years after????????????????????????????/
No biggy, either way GH15, you seem like a decent , thoughtful person.
I know for a fact your drugs are all views are too narrow and extreme however.
Good luck and I actually enjoyed the debate, thanks again, even if I don't agree.
Good night, and all the best, Howard
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Are you saying they were 4-5 % ? bullshit closer to 10% and these were the guys with the best genetics..
Drugs were used back then also , its a fact..hate to burst your bubble :-*
that is correct tablets were used in 50s 60s ,,oils too to some degree,,and many can get down to 4% but they will be 120lb naturally if they ever get it beforre dieing
bodybuilders all know it including howerd but bodybuilders have pride and they like to keep the magic going ,,i say same exact things many bodybuilders say in the outside world that are lies since you gotta swim with the fish and not against it ,,atleast not in todays world when there is no more provacy and if i said what i say here in real life id be dead ,,privacy is none existant now days and the easiest thing is to finish someone in real life if you dont like what they say
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I know for a fact your drugs are all views are too narrow and extreme however.
Good luck and I actually enjoyed the debate, thanks again, even if I don't agree.
Good night, and all the best, Howard
Do you have pics from when you were 200lbs at around 4%? That's close to Munzer-like conditioning and at 200lbs with such a low BF% is absolutely HUGE!!!
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Howie should write Serge Nubret's biography.........."Nothing but hard work and 3 pounds of beef a day"
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Do you have pics from when you were 200lbs at around 4%? That's close to Munzer-like conditioning and at 200lbs with such a low BF% is absolutely HUGE!!!
I would also like to see pics!
Personally I made the biggest mistake in my contest prep when trying to get below 7% naturally. I started to lose almost everything. Since then (and a certain PBW show) I believe most what gh15 says.
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The most retarded of all the BB drug myths
That combining several anabolics gives better results than just taking tons of one or maybe two high androgens. It doesen't. Taking 2,500 mg of testosterone and 2,500 mg of oxymetholone a week will give better results than taking 5,000 mg of all other steroids combined a week.
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Reality is: some cheating competitors ≠ all cheating competitors.
Hope that helps
Well, I have to admit you are right. But unfortunately "some cheating competitors" are also the ones who win the shows.
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That combining several anabolics gives better results than just taking tons of one or maybe two high androgens. It doesen't. Taking 2,500 mg of testosterone and 2,500 mg of oxymetholone a week will give better results than taking 5,000 mg of all other steroids combined a week.
Maybe right, maybe wrong, but how do you know? Are you telling us you've been on 5g/wk?
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Maybe right, maybe wrong, but how do you know? Are you telling us you've been on 5g/wk?
No, it's called science. You don't need to experience something to know whether it will work or not. Think what would happen if the only way for a physician to know if a drug works is by taking it...he would need to take thousands of drugs before qualifiying as a physician.
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No, it's called bro science. You don't need to experience something to know whether it will work or not. Think what would happen if the only way for a physician to know if a drug works is by taking it...he would need to take thousands of drugs before qualifiying as a physician.
It's called speculation, and you need to tug out your speculum there doc. Science is generally based on data, not the assumption that if a little works well then a lot will work great.
There's the point of decreasing benefits to ponder, as well as the pudding which used to be your liver before the 2500mg of orals.
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It's called speculation, and you need to tug out your speculum there doc. Science is generally based on data, not the assumption that if a little works well then a lot will work great.
There's the point of decreasing benefits to ponder, as well as the pudding which used to be your liver before the 2500mg of orals.
My point is that many believe that taking 5,000 mg a week of 10 different weak steroids - adding up - will produce greater or equal anabolic gains then taking 5,000 of just testosterone or oxymetholone. That is not true. There is no synergistic effect between mild anabolics that make them become more potent when taken together than a strong anabolic like testosterone or oxymetholone, on the same dosage. Claiming otherwise is junk science.
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Ok, we got into some drug sciene and I found some of the posts and views interesting.
I do know that some will hold on to their cherished belief that bodybuilding is all drugs ad little else.
That view does not harm anyone but themselves and here is why.
So long as one is realistic it is far better to feel good about your training and stay positive.
If you don't want to use drugs, don't let that be an excuse for not making gains.
If you want to use roids but don't have access to them, don't let that stop you from training and doing your best on your own terms. In the end , it is YOUR physique and your health that matters most after the dust clears.
Howard