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Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: Tre on March 19, 2008, 10:25:16 AM
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I am simply noting that this issue of the minister and the race speech are small potatoes for small people.
Not exactly.
At this point, for the Clintons, it's ALL about getting re-elected. Nothing else matters and their goal is to get opponents to play their game, because they're the best at it.
In large part, they've already won by forcing Obama to talk about race. Now Whites will be reminded, "Hey, he's Black!" and many will take pause.
Obama's campaign has made a few big mistakes and this was one of them. I think his errors are magnified because he's Black, but moreso because he's run such an incredibly smooth campaign up 'til now.
Obama should've simply said that he often disagrees with the opinions of people he respects or has received counsel from. He further should've stated UNEQUIVOCALLY and WITHOUT QUALIFICATION that he's a candidate for President of the United States and that he respects, appreciates, and loves the diversity of this great land.
He should ACKNOWLEDGE that his current position would not be possible today if not for those who worked and who gave their lives before him, but that's not where we're at now. One can appreciate the progress of our people (as a nation, not just as a race) without being dismissive of the struggle. And just as an FYI, we should all be mindful that not all the victims of the Civil Rights Movement were Black.
He should've kept it short and simple and talked more about the pertinent economic issues that mean the most to the majority of Americans right now. By going the 'race speech' route, he's now opened a box that may be impossible to close.
I really hope he can keep Killary (love that one!) off the November ballot, but even if he gets the nomination, he now has a huge hole to dig out of.
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Ummmm, Im white and think he showed great leader skills, and think he is ahead because of it.
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Not exactly.
At this point, for the Clintons, it's ALL about getting re-elected. Nothing else matters and their goal is to get opponents to play their game, because they're the best at it.
Maybe.
In large part, they've already won by forcing Obama to talk about race. Now Whites will be reminded, "Hey, he's Black!" and many will take pause.
That ship sailed when Obama made the national scene with black skin.
Obama's campaign has made a few big mistakes and this was one of them. I think his errors are magnified because he's Black, but moreso because he's run such an incredibly smooth campaign up 'til now.
Obama should've simply said that he often disagrees with the opinions of people he respects or has received counsel from. He further should've stated UNEQUIVOCALLY and WITHOUT QUALIFICATION that he's a candidate for President of the United States and that he respects, appreciates, and loves the diversity of this great land.
He should ACKNOWLEDGE that his current position would not be possible today if not for those who worked and who gave their lives before him, but that's not where we're at now. One can appreciate the progress of our people (as a nation, not just as a race) without being dismissive of the struggle. And just as an FYI, we should all be mindful that not all the victims of the Civil Rights Movement were Black.
You are correct. Civil rights belong to all people. It's just that up until 45 or so years ago, blacks were second class citizens deprived of their civil rights.
He should've kept it short and simple and talked more about the pertinent economic issues that mean the most to the majority of Americans right now. By going the 'race speech' route, he's now opened a box that may be impossible to close.
I agree.
I really hope he can keep Killary (love that one!) off the November ballot, but even if he gets the nomination, he now has a huge hole to dig out of.
I don't think so. I'm still of the opinion that, for ingrained sociological reasons, a black man or a woman cannot win a presidential election in this country in 2008.
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the war-horse looking stout ! :o
thanks, man. Years of powerlifting...
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Not exactly.
At this point, for the Clintons, it's ALL about getting re-elected. Nothing else matters and their goal is to get opponents to play their game, because they're the best at it.
In large part, they've already won by forcing Obama to talk about race. Now Whites will be reminded, "Hey, he's Black!" and many will take pause.
Obama's campaign has made a few big mistakes and this was one of them. I think his errors are magnified because he's Black, but moreso because he's run such an incredibly smooth campaign up 'til now.
Obama should've simply said that he often disagrees with the opinions of people he respects or has received counsel from. He further should've stated UNEQUIVOCALLY and WITHOUT QUALIFICATION that he's a candidate for President of the United States and that he respects, appreciates, and loves the diversity of this great land.
He should ACKNOWLEDGE that his current position would not be possible today if not for those who worked and who gave their lives before him, but that's not where we're at now. One can appreciate the progress of our people (as a nation, not just as a race) without being dismissive of the struggle. And just as an FYI, we should all be mindful that not all the victims of the Civil Rights Movement were Black.
He should've kept it short and simple and talked more about the pertinent economic issues that mean the most to the majority of Americans right now. By going the 'race speech' route, he's now opened a box that may be impossible to close.
I really hope he can keep Killary (love that one!) off the November ballot, but even if he gets the nomination, he now has a huge hole to dig out of.
Tre, I have to disagree with you.
To assume his speech will only serve to remind Americans that he is Black, pre-supposes that all americans are racist. Americans are well aware the man is Black. For those who are affected by these things, they don't need a speech to remind them, they're reminded of it every time they see him.
I believe what his speech accomplished was to lay to rest the fears or concerns of those who might have felt a little trepidation at the prospect of a President who they worried may not be in touch with their fears and or concerns regarding race. He displayed his awareness and understanding of the various perspectives that cut across the spectrum of America, while conveying the truth that one person's dream doesn't have to come at the expense of another's.
His speech IMO demonstrated something we've rarely seen, ...and that was "Leadership". True Leadership!
The way he addressed head on, the race issues confronting America, said to me 'This is a statesman', one who is ready, willing, and able to address & confront the issues that need to be addressed and will not run or shirk away from that responsibility. Politicians duck and avoid controversy at all cost. True leaders and statesmen, take the bull by the horns and address what needs to be addressed without shirking their responsibility to do so. If the American people don't recognize what they have in Barack Obama, and seize the opportunity to put him in the Whitehouse, NOW, ...well then heaven help them, ...because nothing else can.
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I truely believe most of voting America accepts a black man running for president. I know there are racist people out there, but they are far from a majority these days. I don't think voters will take any pause at this point and think "Hey, he's Black!" The issue with Rev Wright struck a deeper note with many independents/undecided voters and non-blacks (including non-whites) because they they are not used to hearing angry racially divisive speeches and these more obscure racially damning ideas that usually come from activists. What they originally saw as a poised intelligent presidential black candidate running on a campaign of change is now associated with someone who has very different, and scary ideas...something we may have heard publically 40-50 yrs ago. Many white people & other non-blacks don't care if someone is black if they have similar habits, actions, thinking....but many were surprised to hear the angry style and harsh criticizms of the gov and whites from Rev. Wright (and his church who all cheered at these comments) and then associate that, which they are not comfortable or used to hearing, with their presidential candidate. Thats why this struck such a note...not because he was black. Being black may actually be swinging more votes his way than against him IMO. What left a bad taste was exposing a close tie with a racist pastor who has harsh words and harsh accusations for our government. When you hear the words and watch these speaches, its not mainstream thinking...even for people of more liberal mindsets.
To know a person, you should know his friends, inner circle and doings prior to the public spotlight. There is a legitimate question of why Obama would belong to such a church and why he chose Rev Wright as a close friend, campaign supporter and personal spiritual advisor. Wright does not preach the messages we hear from Obama, it is a very different style focused on past angers. That is not good for America...or anyone really.
Tre, I think your suggestions about how he should have responded best are right on. The more attention this gets, the more it will be on people's minds. He needed to specifically disagree with Wrights racial conspiracy ideas and divert attention back to him and his original message. The Clintons are shrewed politicians.
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I truely believe most of voting America accepts a black man running for president. I know there are racist people out there, but they are far from a majority these days. I don't think voters will take any pause at this point and think "Hey, he's Black!" The issue with Rev Wright struck a deeper note with many independents/undecided voters and non-blacks (including non-whites) because they they are not used to hearing angry racially divisive speeches and these more obscure racially damning ideas that usually come from activists. What they originally saw as a poised intelligent presidential black candidate running on a campaign of change is now associated with someone who has very different, and scary ideas...something we may have heard publically 40-50 yrs ago. Many white people & other non-blacks don't care if someone is black if they have similar habits, actions, thinking....but many were surprised to hear the angry style and harsh criticizms of the gov and whites from Rev. Wright (and his church who all cheered at these comments) and then associate that, which they are not comfortable or used to hearing, with their presidential candidate. Thats why this struck such a note...not because he was black. Being black may actually be swinging more votes his way than against him IMO. What left a bad taste was exposing a close tie with a racist pastor who has harsh words and harsh accusations for our government. When you hear the words and watch these speaches, its not mainstream thinking...even for people of more liberal mindsets.
To know a person, you should know his friends, inner circle and doings prior to the public spotlight. There is a legitimate question of why Obama would belong to such a church and why he chose Rev Wright as a close friend, campaign supporter and personal spiritual advisor. Wright does not preach the messages we hear from Obama, it is a very different style focused on past angers. That is not good for America...or anyone really.
Tre, I think your suggestions about how he should have responded best are right on. The more attention this gets, the more it will be on people's minds. He needed to specifically disagree with Wrights racial conspiracy ideas and divert attention back to him and his original message. The Clintons are shrewed politicians.
Exactly. Most whites have no problem with a black potential President, but a lot of us have a big problem with one who associates with "black activists" like Rev. Wright. That's why I think the first black president will be a Republican who doesn't associate with those types to begin with. It's too bad General Powell decided not to run... I think he could have won.
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Not exactly.
At this point, for the Clintons, it's ALL about getting re-elected. Nothing else matters and their goal is to get opponents to play their game, because they're the best at it.
In large part, they've already won by forcing Obama to talk about race. Now Whites will be reminded, "Hey, he's Black!" and many will take pause.
Obama's campaign has made a few big mistakes and this was one of them. I think his errors are magnified because he's Black, but moreso because he's run such an incredibly smooth campaign up 'til now.
Obama should've simply said that he often disagrees with the opinions of people he respects or has received counsel from. He further should've stated UNEQUIVOCALLY and WITHOUT QUALIFICATION that he's a candidate for President of the United States and that he respects, appreciates, and loves the diversity of this great land.
He should ACKNOWLEDGE that his current position would not be possible today if not for those who worked and who gave their lives before him, but that's not where we're at now. One can appreciate the progress of our people (as a nation, not just as a race) without being dismissive of the struggle. And just as an FYI, we should all be mindful that not all the victims of the Civil Rights Movement were Black.
He should've kept it short and simple and talked more about the pertinent economic issues that mean the most to the majority of Americans right now. By going the 'race speech' route, he's now opened a box that may be impossible to close.
I really hope he can keep Killary (love that one!) off the November ballot, but even if he gets the nomination, he now has a huge hole to dig out of.
Disagree, Tre. Obama would have had to come forward and deal with the issue of race sooner or later anyway. Upon getting the nomination, you KNOW the Republicans will create all sorts of swift boat styled attacks using racial stereotypes and outright racist pandering to scare white Americans. Obama was smart to face this issue head-on and as brilliantly as he did in March instead of in October. This story may not ever go away completely, however, there will be so many other issues and storylines that come up in future months that Rev. Wright will be largely forgotten.
I can't believe you feel like you feel you can better articulate how this manner should have been handled better than Obama, Tre. That speech will go down as one of the greatest ever delivered by a politician on the issue of race and politics in America.
Trust me, white folks didn't just suddenly realize Obama was black a couple of weeks ago. ;) He's a light-skinned brother, but his racial identity is pretty obvious. As I've said before, Obama's not going to win the majority of the uneducated white working class vote, or the vote of the white educated bigot. The educated and open-minded are more open to him than before due to that speech.
Personally, I am glad Obama was a member of Rev. Wright's church. It confirms what I already knew about the man...that he is a good man, but he ain't no sellout. :D He understands and relates to the anger and frustrations within the black community. His years of reading authors such as Ralph Ellison, Alex Haley, and Richard Wright in his youth paid off.
I do agree that the Clintons are ALL about getting elected at all costs. But if they destroy their long-standing connections to the black community to steal the nomination, they will have close to zero chance of beating McCain.
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Exactly. Most whites have no problem with a black potential President, but a lot of us have a big problem with one who associates with "black activists" like Rev. Wright. That's why I think the first black president will be a Republican who doesn't associate with those types to begin with. It's too bad General Powell decided not to run... I think he could have won.
Your racist ass wouldn't have voted for Powell either. ::)
And which Powell are we talking about...the 2000 Powell, or the Powell of today? The Powell of today has ZERO credibility thanks to his "Yes Man" status in going before the UN with all that phony intel on Iraq.
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Your racist ass wouldn't have voted for Powell either. ::)
And which Powell are we talking about...the 2000 Powell, or the Powell of today? The Powell of today has ZERO credibility thanks to his "Yes Man" status in going before the UN with all that phony intel on Iraq.
His problem is he was a moderate in a neocon administration. And yes, I would have voted for him, since I am a moderate republican with no love for the christian right or the neocons.
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Colin Powell would have been an incredible candidate. Too bad he didn't run. Great man. Great American.
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Colin Powell would have been an incredible candidate. Too bad he didn't run. Great man. Great American.
Yes, I suppose it takes a great something to sit in front of the world and know you're feeding them pure bullshit. Powell knew the things he was asked to say at the UN was untrue crap but he did it anyway. The right man, a truly great man, would have said, no, I resign...
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Yes, I suppose it takes a great something to sit in front of the world and know you're feeding them pure bullshit. Powell knew the things he was asked to say at the UN was untrue crap but he did it anyway. The right man, a truly great man, would have said, no, I resign...
How do you know he believed the information he provided was false at the time he provided it?
In any event, his lifetime body of work is outstanding. I think he's the best qualified man in the country to be president. Too bad he'll never run.
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His problem is he was a moderate in a neocon administration. And yes, I would have voted for him, since I am a moderate republican with no love for the christian right or the neocons.
By all too many of your posts, you also have "no love" for black people.
Yes, I suppose it takes a great something to sit in front of the world and know you're feeding them pure bullshit. Powell knew the things he was asked to say at the UN was untrue crap but he did it anyway. The right man, a truly great man, would have said, no, I resign...
;)
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Obama should have taken a page out of Cheney's book and just said "So?"
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By all too many of your posts, you also have "no love" for black people.
;)
Whatever. It doesn't change the fact that had Gen. Powell run in 2000, I would have voted for him.
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Whatever. It doesn't change the fact that had Gen. Powell run in 2000, I would have voted for him.
bullshit
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Obama should have taken a page out of Cheney's book and just said "So?"
LOL.
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Obama should have taken a page out of Cheney's book and just said "So?"
lol
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Disagree, Tre. Obama would have had to come forward and deal with the issue of race sooner or later anyway. Upon getting the nomination, you KNOW the Republicans will create all sorts of swift boat styled attacks using racial stereotypes and outright racist pandering to scare white Americans. Obama was smart to face this issue head-on and as brilliantly as he did in March instead of in October. This story may not ever go away completely, however, there will be so many other issues and storylines that come up in future months that Rev. Wright will be largely forgotten.
I can't believe you feel like you feel you can better articulate how this manner should have been handled better than Obama, Tre. That speech will go down as one of the greatest ever delivered by a politician on the issue of race and politics in America.
Trust me, white folks didn't just suddenly realize Obama was black a couple of weeks ago. ;) He's a light-skinned brother, but his racial identity is pretty obvious. As I've said before, Obama's not going to win the majority of the uneducated white working class vote, or the vote of the white educated bigot. The educated and open-minded are more open to him than before due to that speech.
Personally, I am glad Obama was a member of Rev. Wright's church. It confirms what I already knew about the man...that he is a good man, but he ain't no sellout. :D He understands and relates to the anger and frustrations within the black community. His years of reading authors such as Ralph Ellison, Alex Haley, and Richard Wright in his youth paid off.
I do agree that the Clintons are ALL about getting elected at all costs. But if they destroy their long-standing connections to the black community to steal the nomination, they will have close to zero chance of beating McCain.
Absolutely, and also too understand this man worked as a community organizer for years. How can you organize a community when you are apart from that community. What I find surprising is that many in America are so surprised by Rev. Wrights preaching style. It would be more amusing if not so alarmingly demonstrative of the fact that the most segregated hour of American life is indeed Sunday morning. Anybody whose ever spent time in many African American churches will tell you it's not all pious & grace. Most often, there's a whole lotta whoopin' & hollerin' goin' on!
I wonder though if people will start to bring the same degree of scrutiny to Hillary. She's been surrounded by some very controversial religious leaders herself. I think Stark posted a link the other day to a minister who claimed his congregation ate through his favour alone, and the power was in his word and in his mouth. Here's a man preaching about his own corruption & megalomania (imo) and nobody mentions that.
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How do you know he believed the information he provided was false at the time he provided it?
I think the fact that he screamed "This is bullshit. I'm not reading this" then threw the speech across the floor leading to some urgent re-writes just minutes before he was to appear in front of the UN might've been a big clue.
In any event, his lifetime body of work is outstanding. I think he's the best qualified man in the country to be president. Too bad he'll never run.
And what in your estimation makes him the best qualified man in the country to be president.
Because he was able to sit in the UN and willfully BS the entire country and the world in order to willfully support with lies, what he knew to be an illegal war of aggression? Is that what qualifies a man to be president?
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I think the fact that he screamed "This is bullshit. I'm not reading this" then threw the speech across the floor leading to some urgent re-writes just minutes before he was to appear in front of the UN might've been a big clue.
And what in your estimation makes him the best qualified man in the country to be president.
Because he was able to sit in the UN and willfully BS the entire country and the world in order to willfully support with lies, what he knew to be an illegal war of aggression? Is that what qualifies a man to be president?
Good point. powell was a major "YES" man to the false war claims.
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I think the fact that he screamed "This is bullshit. I'm not reading this" then threw the speech across the floor leading to some urgent re-writes just minutes before he was to appear in front of the UN might've been a big clue.
And what in your estimation makes him the best qualified man in the country to be president.
Because he was able to sit in the UN and willfully BS the entire country and the world in order to willfully support with lies, what he knew to be an illegal war of aggression? Is that what qualifies a man to be president?
I'm not going to list his military, government, and private sector experience. You can look that up yourself. Start with "My American Journey."
What you'll find in his auto, evaluating his record, and assessing him as a person is a very experienced, intelligent, diligent, articulate, bright man of integrity and faith. I don't think there is a man or woman in the country with his resume and intangibles.
Condi is close. :)
I'd love to see a Powell/Rice or Powell/Linda Lingle ticket. I'd be excited about either one.
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Personally, I am glad Obama was a member of Rev. Wright's church. It confirms what I already knew about the man...that he is a good man, but he ain't no sellout. :D He understands and relates to the anger and frustrations within the black community. His years of reading authors such as Ralph Ellison, Alex Haley, and Richard Wright in his youth paid off.
Not that Im looking forward to that day but I wonder if white men will be able to emulate the finer points of a white racist and make this kinda claim without being ostrisized by everyone else.
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There is a big difference between being a racist (which I dispise as much as anything) and not agreeing with a minority activist like Rev Wright.
Many of us acknowledge the wrongs of the past and can understand the anger surrounding this but don't excuse continued diversive and hateful preaching to correct or address those wrongs at this time. Particularly the far out accusations he preached against our government, which got support from his congregation. That is irresponsible and ignorant for a leader and should NOT get a pass! Its counterproductive, creates continued anger on both sides and IMO has held part of the black community back. If you look at England, people blend much better and there aren't issues like this between blacks and whites. The vast majority blend and don't hold these deep historical grudges. There is no constant struggle like this. Slavery certainly f'ed up this nation, but other nations have move on and overcome. People like Rev Wright contribute to the continued racial divide that should have mended.
I am glad Barack pulled away from Wrights comments, that was appropriate, but its hard to buy that he doesn't believe some of it with the relationship they had.
Brave people are people like Bill Cosby, who had a universal message. Its ashame he was criticized by many in the black community. He has been one of the biggest financial supporters of black education and because some didn't like the straight talk and wake up call he was giving, they threw him under the bridge. Bill had a good message that was applicable to all families.
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family is over... a relative was talking about obama... she's a completely non-political person that I rarely talk to... she said "obama hates white people, but i'm voting for him because he'll give my kids free insurance, and the other guy wants to bomb iran". lol...
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family is over... a relative was talking about obama... she's a completely non-political person that I rarely talk to... she said "obama hates white people, but i'm voting for him because he'll give my kids free insurance, and the other guy wants to bomb iran". lol...
Your relative thinks Obama hates his own mother?
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There is a big difference between being a racist (which I dispise as much as anything) and not agreeing with a minority activist like Rev Wright.
Many of us acknowledge the wrongs of the past and can understand the anger surrounding this but don't excuse continued diversive and hateful preaching to correct or address those wrongs at this time. Particularly the far out accusations he preached against our government, which got support from his congregation. That is irresponsible and ignorant for a leader and should NOT get a pass! Its counterproductive, creates continued anger on both sides and IMO has held part of the black community back. If you look at England, people blend much better and there aren't issues like this between blacks and whites. The vast majority blend and don't hold these deep historical grudges. There is no constant struggle like this. Slavery certainly f'ed up this nation, but other nations have move on and overcome. People like Rev Wright contribute to the continued racial divide that should have mended.
I am glad Barack pulled away from Wrights comments, that was appropriate, but its hard to buy that he doesn't believe some of it with the relationship they had.
Brave people are people like Bill Cosby, who had a universal message. Its ashame he was criticized by many in the black community. He has been one of the biggest financial supporters of black education and because some didn't like the straight talk and wake up call he was giving, they threw him under the bridge. Bill had a good message that was applicable to all families.
Good points.
I didn't care for Cosby's rant much. He pretty much spoke the truth, but he's a billionaire with a PhD. Very easy for him to throw stones at people who might be in a cycle of poverty.
On an unrelated note, I loved his line when being interviewed once about the relationship between happiness and money. He said (paraphrasing) I've been rich and I've been poor, and I'd rather be rich. :)
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Your relative thinks Obama hates his own mother?
Didn't Obama call his mother a "typical white person" and then went on about how she made discriminatory remarks regarding blacks?
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Good points.
I didn't care for Cosby's rant much. He pretty much spoke the truth, but he's a billionaire with a PhD. Very easy for him to throw stones at people who might be in a cycle of poverty.
On an unrelated note, I loved his line when being interviewed once about the relationship between happiness and money. He said (paraphrasing) I've been rich and I've been poor, and I'd rather be rich. :)
No one handed him those accomplishments on a silver platter. He worked hard for everything he has and suffered through the same prejudices, I think he has every right to be critical.
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No one handed him those accomplishments on a silver platter. He worked hard for everything he has and suffered through the same prejudices, I think he has every right to be critical.
True. I have a problem with his delivery more than anything else.
I think many people who have seen things like "the projects" or other very poor communities understand what a vicious cycle poverty can be. Kids in that environment are at an extreme disadvantage. Their parents are often uneducated, they often don't have good role models, their schools suck. Have you ever visited an elementary school in a poor community? Some of the conditions are just appalling. Anyone who works hard can still get out of that environment, but it's much harder for them than someone whose parents have PhDs and who went to the best and most expensive school in the state (Obama).
This doesn't excuse anyone's bad behavior and at the end of the day we're all responsible for our own conduct and our own success or failure, but there is no question that environment plays a heavy role in the outcome. With that backdrop, I have a problem with someone like Cosby simply saying, in so many words, "what the heck is your problem, why aren't you successful like me"?
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Didn't Obama call his mother a "typical white person" and then went on about how she made discriminatory remarks regarding blacks?
He was referring to his grandmother, not his mother. And I don't think that means he doesn't love his grandparents. They raised him. You're implying that he "hates" half of his family...the side of his family Obama was closest to growing up. He never really knew his father and did not visit Kenya until he was an adult.
I have had disagreements with my parents, but I don't love them any less.
It cracks me up about how quick white folks (men in particular) are so quick to jump on any hint of "hate for white people" within black Americans, yet don't speak out about the hatred within your own community. It must be a reverse psychology thing to deal with white guilt. :) You'd think there were just as many black slaveholders that enslaved white people and destroyed families by ripping apart children from their mothers...just as many blacks controlling all the levers of power after slavery "technically" was abolished...instituted just as many Jim Crow laws that treated white people like shit and forced them to go to crappy schools and have to enter through the back door of stores and restaurants...humiliated white folks by making them sit on the back of the bus and drink from separate water fountains...firebombed just as many white churches killing innocent children...unleashed water hoses on white men, women, and children demonstrating peacefully for equal rights under the law...
Yeah man, hopefully one day white men will be able to speak out like Rev. Wright about all the injustices they have experienced in America too. ::)
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He was referring to his grandmother, not his mother. And I don't think that means he doesn't love his grandparents. They raised him. You're implying that he "hates" half of his family...the side of his family Obama was closest to growing up. He never really knew his father and did not visit Kenya until he was an adult.
I have had disagreements with my parents, but I don't love them any less.
It cracks me up about how quick white folks (men in particular) are so quick to jump on any hint of "hate for white people" within black Americans, yet don't speak out about the hatred within your own community. It must be a reverse psychology thing to deal with white guilt. :) You'd think there were just as many black slaveholders that enslaved white people and destroyed families by ripping apart children from their mothers...just as many blacks controlling all the levers of power after slavery "technically" was abolished...instituted just as many Jim Crow laws that treated white people like shit and forced them to go to crappy schools and have to enter through the back door of stores and restaurants...humiliated white folks by making them sit on the back of the bus and drink from separate water fountains...firebombed just as many white churches killing innocent children...unleashed water hoses on white men, women, and children demonstrating peacefully for equal rights under the law...
Yeah man, hopefully one day white men will be able to speak out like Rev. Wright about all the injustices they have experienced in America too. ::)
Your man can do no wrong, huh? Feel free to vote for a person that particpates at a racist church if it makes you feel better. ::)
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Your man can do no wrong, huh? Feel free to vote for a person that particpates at a racist church if it makes you feel better. ::)
Oh, I'm going to do it with great joy. ;D
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It must be a reverse psychology thing to deal with white guilt. :) You'd think there were just as many black slaveholders that enslaved white people and destroyed families by ripping apart children from their mothers...
No living black has ever been a slave. Slavery ended 140 years ago and it's been over 40 years since the civil rights movement. I'm sick and fucking tired of them using slavery as a crutch and an excuse to throw stones at me because of the color of my skin. >:(
And they can shove that "white guilt" shit right up their asses. My ancestors were back in Germany when slavery was going on in the US. I'm guilty of nothing. >:(
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could you imagine the HAG hillary or mccain talking about the stuff he did? saying what he did? knowing the potential risks to his candidacy? he is the best most genuine person left, the only option left for a real change of pace, the only one who isnt an aristocrat saying scripted lines who will cut throats for a lead in the polls, this is the best option for the american people...
if people cant see through hillary's fake facade and vote one of the others in, they deserve what they have coming to them,just like they fckin deserve the consequences for voting Bush in. twice.
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could you imagine the HAG hillary or mccain talking about the stuff he did? saying what he did? knowing the potential risks to his candidacy? he is the best most genuine person left, the only option left for a real change of pace, the only one who isnt an aristocrat saying scripted lines who will cut throats for a lead in the polls, this is the best option for the american people...
if people cant see through hillary's fake facade and vote one of the others in, they deserve what they have coming to them,just like they fckin deserve the consequences for voting Bush in. twice.
Pssst. All three suck ass.
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I'm not going to list his military, government, and private sector experience. You can look that up yourself. Start with "My American Journey."
What you'll find in his auto, evaluating his record, and assessing him as a person is a very experienced, intelligent, diligent, articulate, bright man of integrity and faith. I don't think there is a man or woman in the country with his resume and intangibles.
Condi is close. :)
I'd love to see a Powell/Rice or Powell/Linda Lingle ticket. I'd be excited about either one.
In my opinion, intelligent men do not endorse disastrous and suicidal economic or foreign policies.
In my opinion, diligent, articulate men do not make errors about enemies existing where they do not. 5 x's in a row.
In my opinion, bright men of integrity & faith do not flip flop on the issue of torture or joke about bombing countries.
In my opinion, I now believe I know what he got in exchange for supporting Bush on the torture issue.
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In my opinion, intelligent men do not endorse disastrous and suicidal economic or foreign policies.
In my opinion, diligent, articulate men do not make errors about enemies existing where they do not. 5 x's in a row.
In my opinion, bright men of integrity & faith do not flip flop on the issue of torture or joke about bombing countries.
I doubt many people here will debate you on these facts, which is sad. McCain has done all of these things, and people will overlook them because Obama's pastor is an idiot. They care more about owning a guy who said things they don't like, than the entire economy. Odd.
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Beachbum, I agree with you. Thats why I believe some of our tax dollars should go to improving opportunities, education and mentoring programs in inner city schools (but there needs to be ways to validade effectiveness, handouts do not work to change motivation, self pride, and work ethic). I totally agree that environment is so important when you are young. But the epidemic of broken homes in the poor and black communities must be improved for these things to help most. The cycle of poor parenting, broken families, drug abuse, apathy, and fatherless homes must be addressed. Thats what bill cosby was trying to address. Its not just a black thing, its a class based issue.
A lot of the change has to come from the inside first.
If any of you are grouping me with the few racist posts or undertones we see here, please don't. I am too intelligent and too caring for that garbage. My aim is to debate (and learn) how best to address some of these issues. As usual, neither the far right or far left is right.
I have a great mix of friends and am the only white dude in our band, which plays classic R&B, funk and classic rock...all those guys are like my brothers & we've played together for several years. They are also hard working guys who find a lot of fault with the culture of the younger generation, particularly the influence of rap, and the problem broken families has had on our youth.
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I doubt many people here will debate you on these facts, which is sad. McCain has done all of these things, and people will overlook them because Obama's pastor is an idiot. They care more about owning a guy who said things they don't like, than the entire economy. Odd.
The kicker is, ...Obama is getting blamed for something he didn't even say. ::)
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I can't believe you feel like you feel you can better articulate how this manner should have been handled better than Obama, Tre. That speech will go down as one of the greatest ever delivered by a politician on the issue of race and politics in America.
I have to disagree.
I didn't think it was right for him to throw his grandmother under the bus.
The reason why my approach to this would've been better than what he and his campaign chose is that my position is rooted in common sense. Race is not the reason that oil prices have quadrupled in the last 7 years nor is it the cause of the foreclosure epidemic. One could reasonably argue that there is a racist element to our military campaign in Iraq, but at the root of that conversation is oil lust and nepotism.
I'm not saying that I'm against having this conversation at all, I just feel that a Presidential candidate needs to be talking about the most pertinent issues facing the country today. If this was 1964, yes, absolutely, let's talk about race. But this is 2008 - our lives are bigger now and our day-to-day concerns are different.
We're a long way off from November, but if by chance he is elected President, he's going to be asked 'how it feels' to be the first Black (or African-American) President of the United States, and if he's smart, he'll simply say that it feels great to know that the nation feels confident enough in him to put the leadership in his hands and he will thank every American for working so hard to give him the opportunity to lead us into the next decade.
Keep the focus on America as the land where hard work can lead to great opportunities and he should be fine. Again, that's looking ahead a bit, but that should've been the general tone of any response from his campaign to the remarks by Geraldine Ferraro and others who've made similar statements about Obama.
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I don't think so. I'm still of the opinion that, for ingrained sociological reasons, a black man or a woman cannot win a presidential election in this country in 2008.
I agree, and this is the opinion I've expressed since Day One, but once I realized how serious the Dems were about getting Clinton back into the White House, I actually became quite fearful of this very real possibility - that they might win (or steal) another election.
The Clintons are headed to a double-digit win in Pennsylvania unless the urbanites - White, Black, Jewish, Asian, Latino, and other - turn out in full force to support Obama, because the western region of the state will go heavily for the White candidate. Now, that won't carry much weight in November (when that same region will support McCain), but could very well swing many of the superdelegates in June.
There are many regions of the country that would rather see an all-White ballot, even if there's a woman on half, than one that is all-male if one half happens to be non-White.
At this point, in the interest of protecting America as best we can, I need all good people to stand in opposition to the Clinton regime. They must not be allowed to regain the White House.
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lol at race.... such a distraction issue hahahahaha
next, let's spend 8 weeks talking about gay marriage.
i love how the little things take up so much of our thoughts.
in the meantime, 2 big wars entering 5th and 7th years.... borrowing $12 bil a week... dollar in the shitter...
and all we can talk about is some nutty pastor who said something we don't understand about HIV.
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In my opinion, intelligent men do not endorse disastrous and suicidal economic or foreign policies.
In my opinion, diligent, articulate men do not make errors about enemies existing where they do not. 5 x's in a row.
In my opinion, bright men of integrity & faith do not flip flop on the issue of torture or joke about bombing countries.
In my opinion, I now believe I know what he got in exchange for supporting Bush on the torture issue.
The issue was Colin Powell.
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The issue was Colin Powell.
Hold on - is Jaguar arguing that Colin Powell is NOT the greatest American leader of this generation??
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Beachbum, I agree with you. Thats why I believe some of our tax dollars should go to improving opportunities, education and mentoring programs in inner city schools (but there needs to be ways to validade effectiveness, handouts do not work to change motivation, self pride, and work ethic). I totally agree that environment is so important when you are young. But the epidemic of broken homes in the poor and black communities must be improved for these things to help most. The cycle of poor parenting, broken families, drug abuse, apathy, and fatherless homes must be addressed. Thats what bill cosby was trying to address. Its not just a black thing, its a class based issue.
A lot of the change has to come from the inside first.
If any of you are grouping me with the few racist posts or undertones we see here, please don't. I am too intelligent and too caring for that garbage. My aim is to debate (and learn) how best to address some of these issues. As usual, neither the far right or far left is right.
I have a great mix of friends and am the only white dude in our band, which plays classic R&B, funk and classic rock...all those guys are like my brothers & we've played together for several years. They are also hard working guys who find a lot of fault with the culture of the younger generation, particularly the influence of rap, and the problem broken families has had on our youth.
I agree (again). Just a couple points:
I think these problems are entirely class-based and not race-based. I've seen poor communities of different ethnic groups and they're pretty much the same and have the same kinds of problems. The kids from these environments have the same disadvantages.
You do not need to justify any comments you make on race issues. There will always be a dummy or two who will accuse you of being a racist when you engage in frank discussions about race.
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No living black has ever been a slave. Slavery ended 140 years ago and it's been over 40 years since the civil rights movement. I'm sick and fucking tired of them using slavery as a crutch and an excuse to throw stones at me because of the color of my skin. >:(
And they can shove that "white guilt" shit right up their asses. My ancestors were back in Germany when slavery was going on in the US. I'm guilty of nothing. >:(
I would expect nothing less than anger from you, as you are on record as believing blacks are genetically inferior to whites. With that type of superiority complex, your opinion means nothing to me. You can take your "superiority complex" and shove it up your asshole along with the gerbils, strapons and every item you have shoved up your stinkhole. >:(
No living black person in America has been a slave, but every living black person has been a victim of some form of racism and discrimination due to the legacy of slavery.
You have no reason to feel "guilty" as a white person unless you choose to. I never said you had to feel that way, I simply stated that the hypersensitive reaction some show when race is brought up may have to do with guilt. No one can force you to accept your privilege of being white in America. That is your choice to make.
Your ancestors were in Germany during "legal" slavery, so perhaps that is why your knowledge of American history is sorely lacking. Were some of your family members proud members of the Third Reich? American slavery continued in another form long after the Emancipation Proclamation, jackass. Sharecropping and the laws that went along with it during Reconstruction did little to change the situation for black Americans.
And with the end of the Civil Rights movement it isn't like everything became and just and fair the day after Dr. King was shot. There were/are still plenty of assholes like you in the walls of power...from Washington to Wall Street. That is the world from which people like Rev. Wright and came from and experienced.
I believe Rev. Wright is a Marine veteran. You think a man of his education and service does not have a right to express some righteous indignation at the way his people have been treated? That he could come back from military service and be treated like a third class citizen? Men of his generation feel they have a duty to let those younger know the evil America perpetrated for centuries, so that as the Jewish community says...NEVER AGAIN. And that younger blacks don't get hoodwinked and bamboozled by some the same old tricks of the past.
Oh yeah, and Goatboy...eat a dick. >:(
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Pssst. All three suck ass.
Leave the country or kill yourself, the Ron Paul candidacy is over. :D
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Hold on - is Jaguar arguing that Colin Powell is NOT the greatest American leader of this generation??
Apparently. Though when she asked why Powell was the most qualified man in America to president, and I responded, she then gave opinions about McCain. I'm not sure she knows what she is arguing. :)
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The issue was Colin Powell.
Colin Powell isn't running for President against Barack Obama. You say these are the qualities you believe make one qualified to be president. I'm pointing out just a few of the reasons why McCain should not be put in that position.
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I have to disagree.
I didn't think it was right for him to throw his grandmother under the bus.
The reason why my approach to this would've been better than what he and his campaign chose is that my position is rooted in common sense. Race is not the reason that oil prices have quadrupled in the last 7 years nor is it the cause of the foreclosure epidemic. One could reasonably argue that there is a racist element to our military campaign in Iraq, but at the root of that conversation is oil lust and nepotism.
I'm not saying that I'm against having this conversation at all, I just feel that a Presidential candidate needs to be talking about the most pertinent issues facing the country today. If this was 1964, yes, absolutely, let's talk about race. But this is 2008 - our lives are bigger now and our day-to-day concerns are different.
We're a long way off from November, but if by chance he is elected President, he's going to be asked 'how it feels' to be the first Black (or African-American) President of the United States, and if he's smart, he'll simply say that it feels great to know that the nation feels confident enough in him to put the leadership in his hands and he will thank every American for working so hard to give him the opportunity to lead us into the next decade.
Keep the focus on America as the land where hard work can lead to great opportunities and he should be fine. Again, that's looking ahead a bit, but that should've been the general tone of any response from his campaign to the remarks by Geraldine Ferraro and others who've made similar statements about Obama.
He didn't "throw his grandmother under the bus".n ::) How FIXED FOX News of you. It was a point to personalize the speech and express that he knows from personal experience how both sides, black and white, can sometimes talk about one another behind closed doors.
Nice of you to think that in 2008 race no longer needs to be an issue, but Obama is the only black Senator in the U.S. Senate and the first serious black candidate for president for a reason.
Glad to see you believe you have more "common sense" than Obama and his campaign staff, but with the delegate lead and victories in over 25 states I think he is doing ok without your assistance. ;D SUPERDELEGATE Gov. Bill Richardson stated that Obama's speech was one of the major tipping points that made him give his official endorsement. He said it was a uniting speech, not a divisive one.
Obama made the speech, and it was a landmark one that will go down in history. However, the next day he gave a major foreign policy speech and has moved on. It's not like he's going to give a "race speech" every week.
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SUPERDELEGATE Gov. Bill Richardson stated that Obama's speech was one of the major tipping points that made him give his official endorsement. He said it was a uniting speech, not a divisive one.
That's what did it for me as well. The fact that he tackled the race issue, but also how well he was able to articulate the positions in a divided America. His understanding of the Black perspective in my mind was a given. He's lived it his whole life, ...but it was his insightful and compassionate articulation of the resentments of white Americans (vis-a-vis affirmative action) ...especially those born post civil rights era that said to me "This is the man for the job!"
Obama made the speech, and it was a landmark one that will go down in history. However, the next day he gave a major foreign policy speech and has moved on.
;D
Ya I noticed that too in a big way. It looks like his focus has turned away from Hilary and onto McCain. It's almost as if he sees Hilary as a non issue at this point.
If this was 1964, yes, absolutely, let's talk about race. But this is 2008 - our lives are bigger now and our day-to-day concerns are different.
Tre, I have to disagree with you there. It is 2008, and Obama's life is bigger now, your life is bigger now, my life is bigger now, Oprah's life is bigger now, and the lives of thousands of Black families across the USA are bigger now, and our day-to-day concerns are quite different, ...HOWEVER, there are still countless thousands who lives are still lanquishing behind as a direct result of the neglect that was rooted in racism. It is no accident that there are countless thousands living in the "projects". There is a cycle that has perpetuated and that must stop, 30 yrs of AA doesn't wipe out a 600 yr old institution, ...and until real education and opportunity is provided to all children, given the state of current economic policies, those "projects" or pockets of urban blight are gonna soon take on a whole new suburban look to them.
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I agree (again). Just a couple points:
I think these problems are entirely class-based and not race-based. I've seen poor communities of different ethnic groups and they're pretty much the same and have the same kinds of problems. The kids from these environments have the same disadvantages.
You do not need to justify any comments you make on race issues. There will always be a dummy or two who will accuse you of being a racist when you engage in frank discussions about race.
Can't agree entirely with you there. That's a nice idealistic attitude, but it far from reality. If your argument were correct, we would see so called "White Trash" start jumping out of their trailers, joining gangs and begin to kill each other in record numbers. as in the Black community. If you look at the murder rate statistics, violent crime incarceration rates, you'll see a racial discrepancy. Even the one's that are sucessful in athletics and in the music industry still have a sizable portion committing violent crimes. Obviously not just an economic situation.
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Can't agree entirely with you there. That's a nice idealistic attitude, but it far from reality. If your argument were correct, we would see so called "White Trash" start jumping out of their trailers, joining gangs and begin to kill each other in record numbers. as in the Black community. If you look at the murder rate statistics, violent crime incarceration rates, you'll see a racial discrepancy. Even the one's that are sucessful in athletics and in the music industry still have a sizable portion committing violent crimes. Obviously not just an economic situation.
We have discussed race-based crime statistics many times on the board. Violent crime correlates to education and income more than anything else. Our jails are not filled with educated people with good incomes. If your contention that crime is race-based was correct, then we would find disproportionate representation of ethnic groups regardless of education and income. We don't.
In addition, race-based statistics are completely unreliable given the mixing of the races. Just look at the fact people consider Obama black when his mom is white. Race-based statistics don't account for this.
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A nation that once prided itself on a sense of rugged individualism has become uncomfortably obsessed with racial group identities.
The collectivist mindset is at the heart of racism.
Government as an institution is particularly ill-suited to combat bigotry. Bigotry at its essence is a problem of the heart, and we cannot change people's hearts by passing more laws and regulations.
It is the federal government that most divides us by race, class, religion, and gender. Through its taxes, restrictive regulations, corporate subsidies, racial set-asides, and welfare programs, government plays far too large a role in determining who succeeds and who fails. Government "benevolence" crowds out genuine goodwill by institutionalizing group thinking, thus making each group suspicious that others are receiving more of the government loot. This leads to resentment and hostility among us.
Racism is simply an ugly form of collectivism, the mindset that views humans strictly as members of groups rather than as individuals. Racists believe that all individuals who share superficial physical characteristics are alike: as collectivists, racists think only in terms of groups. By encouraging Americans to adopt a group mentality, the advocates of so-called "diversity" actually perpetuate racism.
The true antidote to racism is liberty. Liberty means having a limited, constitutional government devoted to the protection of individual rights rather than group claims. Liberty means free-market capitalism, which rewards individual achievement and competence - not skin color, gender, or ethnicity.
In a free society, every citizen gains a sense of himself as an individual, rather than developing a group or victim mentality. This leads to a sense of individual responsibility and personal pride, making skin color irrelevant. Racism will endure until we stop thinking in terms of groups and begin thinking in terms of individual liberty.
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We have discussed race-based crime statistics many times on the board. Violent crime correlates to education and income more than anything else. Our jails are not filled with educated people with good incomes. If your contention that crime is race-based was correct, then we would find disproportionate representation of ethnic groups regardless of education and income. We don't.
You are correct on the income/education correlation with crime of course, but have studies ever been done that factor socioeconomic status out as a variable? While it's a given that poorer people of all races are more likely to commit crimes, I suspect that the American "black culture" of today that glamorizes the "thug life" crap and teaches disdain for society and the "white man's law" would create a somewhat higher crime rate among poor blacks than poor whites. I wouldn't have said this fifty years ago, but "black culture" has changed dramatically in that time, and not for the better.
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A nation that once prided itself on a sense of rugged individualism has become uncomfortably obsessed with racial group identities.
Agreed. Unfortunately, the liberals are obsessed with celebrating "differences" and "diversity", which serves to do nothing but drive us apart. We should return to the days of the great american "melting pot", where people wanted to blend in to the greater culture and become one people rather than constantly trying to maintain a seperate identity and then demand group favors and group concessions based on it.
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You are correct on the income/education correlation with crime of course, but have studies ever been done that factor socioeconomic status out as a variable? While it's a given that poorer people of all races are more likely to commit crimes, I suspect that the American "black culture" of today that glamorizes the "thug life" crap and teaches disdain for society and the "white man's law" would create a somewhat higher crime rate among poor blacks than poor whites. I wouldn't have said this fifty years ago, but "black culture" has changed dramatically in that time, and not for the better.
Not exactly. The 'hip-hop culture' - which is as much a creation of Whites and Jews as it is of Blacks - seeks to deny our personhood and when you believe that you yourself are something less than human, then it becomes easy to commit violent acts against others that you view the same way.
In the last 20 years, we have failed our young people when it comes to teaching the virtues of Black Love.
What Jag says about so many of our people being left behind is true - I absolutely will not deny that reality. However, the solution BEGINS with educating our young people to love first themselves and secondly, to love their neighbors as they love themselves. If the churches want to get involved, that's fine - religion CAN be used for positive purposes - but we must stress self-love from the moment our charges are born.
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You are correct on the income/education correlation with crime of course, but have studies ever been done that factor socioeconomic status out as a variable? While it's a given that poorer people of all races are more likely to commit crimes, I suspect that the American "black culture" of today that glamorizes the "thug life" crap and teaches disdain for society and the "white man's law" would create a somewhat higher crime rate among poor blacks than poor whites. I wouldn't have said this fifty years ago, but "black culture" has changed dramatically in that time, and not for the better.
I don't know if there has been such a study, but one of the questions I've always had about these race-based studies is "what is the purpose"? Plus I don't believe any of these studies account for mixed race people and likely use the "one drop" rule.
I do not agree that "black culture" glamorizes thug life. Do you know what percentage of hip hop and "gangtsa rap" patrons are white? The only significant segments of the "black community" that glamorizes those fools are the poor and uneducated.
A good friend of mine (who is black) and I have discussed this many times. There is a documentary on the history of the Civil Rights Movement called "Eyes on the Prize." I have it. One of the things you notice is how articulate the young black kids are from the 50s and 60s. But if you believe what a disproportionate portion of the media presents today, you'd think those kids don't exist anymore. They're still here. What has happened is when a "race" issue hits the media, they run to people like Kanye West or some uneducated athlete and stick microphones in their faces.
In my experience, there is no difference whatsoever between poor and poorly educated and educated/well-off whites, blacks, Asians, or Hispanics. They're all cut from the same cloth and all face the same challenges.
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I do not agree that "black culture" glamorizes thug life. Do you know what percentage of hip hop and "gangtsa rap" patrons are white? The only significant segments of the "black community" that glamorizes those fools are the poor and uneducated.
Here's the difference: if a white kid applies himself in education, works hard, and follows the rules he's not going to get a bunch of shit for it from his peers and culture. If a black kid does the same thing, he's labeled a "sellout" or "uncle tom" by his peers and community. It's that sentiment I'm talking about moreso than the commercialized "gangsta rap".
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Here's the difference: if a white kid applies himself in education, works hard, and follows the rules he's not going to get a bunch of shit for it from his peers and culture. If a black kid does the same thing, he's labeled a "sellout" or "uncle tom" by his peers and community. It's that sentiment I'm talking about moreso than the commercialized "gangsta rap".
What are you basing that conclusion on Goatboy?
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What are you basing that conclusion on Goatboy?
First hand observation, as well as conversations with others who have observed it first hand. Are you trying to tell me it doesn't exist? If so, you're like the rest of the liberals closing your eyes, holding hands over your ears, and going "la-la-la-la" since the reality doesn't match up with your ideology.
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First hand observation, as well as conversations with others who have observed it first hand. Are you trying to tell me it doesn't exist? If so, you're like the rest of the liberals closing your eyes, holding hands over your ears, and going "la-la-la-la" since the reality doesn't match up with your ideology.
Actually I was just asking you for the basis of your broad-brush conclusion.
If you're trying to say "black culture" discourages success, I completely disagree. Any kid who works hard and is successful, regardless of race, is by and large admired by his or her peers and community.
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G o a t b o y,
BB believes that people won't be alarmed by 200 paramilitary men in black body armor firing full-auto blanks indiscriminantly into buildings as they kick down doors in the downtown district.
When they did these drills in Hawaii, he defended it and said no one would care or notice.
If you think about that before you read anything by him, it helps to absorb the delusions he tries to sell.
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G o a t b o y,
BB believes that people won't be alarmed by 200 paramilitary men in black body armor firing full-auto blanks indiscriminantly into buildings as they kick down doors in the downtown district.
When they did these drills in Hawaii, he defended it and said no one would care or notice.
If you think about that before you read anything by him, it helps to absorb the delusions he tries to sell.
LOL. I usually ignore most of what you post, because you are a screwball, but I have to say you continue to show that you are a pathological liar. lol . . . . Here is the thread: http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=205642.0
And here is the story: http://starbulletin.com/2008/03/13/news/story03.html
You'll note the story says nothing about "200 paramilitary men in black body armor firing full-auto blanks indiscriminantly into buildings as they kick down doors in the downtown district."
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you are a screwball
Beach Bum,
you're a moderator who called me a screwball.
I call you a neocon cockgobbler.
My post stays, bitch :)
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Beach Bum,
you're a moderator who called me a screwball.
I call you a neocon cockgobbler.
My post stays, bitch :)
So forget about the outright lie you just told. What is that, number 100 this month?
I used to think you were a harmless screwball. Now after reading about you threatening to murder your wife and child and then posting a picture showing a gun with ammunition, I think you are downright scary. Please do let me know if you ever plan to visit Hawaii. I may need to get a TRO . . . and metal detector for my office. :)
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Ok, Beach Bum and 240, even if both you guys think there is no point, attach some sort of contribution to the thread/issue in your insults. That's not a lot to ask. You still get to call eachother cumguzzlers or whatever... You're both guilty to some degree and if I do the same, I expect one of the other mods to set me straight. Let's keep the discussion going.
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I don't know if there has been such a study, but one of the questions I've always had about these race-based studies is "what is the purpose"? Plus I don't believe any of these studies account for mixed race people and likely use the "one drop" rule.
I do not agree that "black culture" glamorizes thug life. Do you know what percentage of hip hop and "gangtsa rap" patrons are white? The only significant segments of the "black community" that glamorizes those fools are the poor and uneducated.
A good friend of mine (who is black) and I have discussed this many times. There is a documentary on the history of the Civil Rights Movement called "Eyes on the Prize." I have it. One of the things you notice is how articulate the young black kids are from the 50s and 60s. But if you believe what a disproportionate portion of the media presents today, you'd think those kids don't exist anymore. They're still here. What has happened is when a "race" issue hits the media, they run to people like Kanye West or some uneducated athlete and stick microphones in their faces.
In my experience, there is no difference whatsoever between poor and poorly educated and educated/well-off whites, blacks, Asians, or Hispanics. They're all cut from the same cloth and all face the same challenges.
Holy Cow! We actually agree on something! :D
Eyes on The Prize is a fabuolous documentary. Very inspiring, and very empowering.
People speak about a thing called "white guilt". I'm not sure I know exactly what that is, ...but I can tell you as a Black person who didn't have to go through even 1/10th of what many American Blacks had to go through, and continue to go through, seeing some of the struggles others have had to endure is enough to inspire "Black guilt".
I remember back in 1990, Erika Alexander coming up to Toronto to shoot a movie based on a true story of integrating the schools in Boston. John Boy from the Walton's directed it, ...and I remember how struck I was by the differences in our experiences. The girl whose story was being portrayed was entering her first day of school in the 6th grade. Well her first day of school in the 6th grade, was also MY first day of school in the 6th grade. It was such a contrast.
Two separate schools in two different countries, on the exact same day of the year. I remember my first day of grade 6 very well, and I can assure you it was nothing like hers.
I am who I am, and I think the way I think as a result of my experiences, as well as my environment. I don't think I would be the same person had I been raised in the USA. My perspectives would have been different, as would my experiences. However, when you grow up keenly aware of the relative priviledge you enjoy, compared to others, even if those priviledges are nothing more than basic human rights, dignity, and a fighting chance, depending on the values instilled in you, there is a need to give back and make a difference in the lives of others. There is a need to model and mentor those coming behind. Because when you truly understand the issues that confront your neighbour, you know that 'There, but for the grace of God, go I'. One thing Obama knows and knows keenly, is that when he stands tall, it is because he is standing on the backs of so many others who came before him. Now, he's ready to blaze a trail for others to follow behind him. The beauty about Obama is, he's blazing that trail for ALL.
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First hand observation, as well as conversations with others who have observed it first hand. Are you trying to tell me it doesn't exist? If so, you're like the rest of the liberals closing your eyes, holding hands over your ears, and going "la-la-la-la" since the reality doesn't match up with your ideology.
Goatboy, what you speak of DOES exist. And it exists in any blue-collar family black or white.
It's a product of class, culture, ignorance and socio-economics, ...not a product of race.
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Goatboy, what you speak of DOES exist. And it exists in any blue-collar family black or white.
It's a product of class, culture, ignorance and socio-economics, ...not a product of race.
The distrust of the system, and the urge to opt out of the system because you believe it to be the "white man's system", is an african american phenomenon.
Are poor white kids likely to undervalue education? Of course, but they don't have the additional motivations I just described so prevalent in the black community.
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Well, according to the Wall Street Journal, he did pretty good!
A Thinking Man's Speech
By Peggy Noonan, The Wall Street Journal
March 21, 2008; Page W16
(http://online.wsj.com/img/colhed_Noonan_Peggy.jpg)
I thought Barack Obama's speech was strong, thoughtful and important. Rather beautifully, it was a speech to think to, not clap to. It was clear that's what he wanted, and this is rare.
It seemed to me as honest a speech as one in his position could give within the limits imposed by politics. As such it was a contribution. We'll see if it was a success. The blowhard guild, proud member since 2000, praised it, and, in the biggest compliment, cable news shows came out of the speech not with jokes or jaded insiderism, but with thought. They started talking, pundits left and right, black and white, about what they'd experienced of race in America. It was kind of wonderful. I thought, Go, America, go, go.
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The distrust of the system, and the urge to opt out of the system because you believe it to be the "white man's system", is an african american phenomenon.
Are poor white kids likely to undervalue education? Of course, but they don't have the additional motivations I just described so prevalent in the black community.
Wow Goatboy, ...thanks for setting me straight.
I don't know where I as a Black woman would be if I didn't have you to tell me all about the sentiments that run so deeply within the Black community. If I need any advice about the Black experience, I now know where to turn.
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Bindare_Dundat, great post. Same with Tre. I agree with both of you guys.
We must teach all kids in this nation to have a strong work ethic, acheivement leading to self pride, love for oneself and ones family and an initial optimistic attitude onto others.
This is where some of the government programs miss the mark. If you don't change the core values, people won't change. Giving without making people feel like they earned something or contributed in some way does not change the mindset or habits that lead to severing the cycle of poverty or poor decision making. This is a fact irrespective of race, gender or creed.
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Wow Goatboy, ...thanks for setting me straight.
I don't know where I as a Black woman would be if I didn't have you to tell me all about the sentiments that run so deeply within the Black community. If I need any advice about the Black experience, I now know where to turn.
You may be black, but you're not african-american. You made a post recently about how different your experience was from black american's:
I remember back in 1990, Erika Alexander coming up to Toronto to shoot a movie based on a true story of integrating the schools in Boston. John Boy from the Walton's directed it, ...and I remember how struck I was by the differences in our experiences. The girl whose story was being portrayed was entering her first day of school in the 6th grade. Well her first day of school in the 6th grade, was also MY first day of school in the 6th grade. It was such a contrast.
Two separate schools in two different countries, on the exact same day of the year. I remember my first day of grade 6 very well, and I can assure you it was nothing like hers.
So, perhaps your Canadian self should refrain from commenting on the American experience? ;D ;)
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You may be black, but you're not african-american. You made a post recently about how different your experience was from black american's:
So, perhaps your Canadian self should refrain from commenting on the American experience? ;D ;)
You must think growing up in the Great White North is all peaches & cream. :-\ I assure you it isn't.
You did however miss the part where I also said the majority of my family is American, and I've lived in the US.
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I don't think the attitude and overall tones of the rap culture helped anyone (except the few artist and record producers who got filthy rich). In fact, it showed a generation of kids the exact wrong ideals, behaviors, the me first & I deserve attitudes, and persuit of material goods for happiness that we have increasingly seen. This crosses racial lines and is seen in a cross section of people. It may be boring to some kids to idolize people like Obama & other political figures, but we have to show them good values and ethics that will give them a greater chance to succeed. I don't think that is happening universally. Theres nothing wrong with enjoying some rap, besides it replaced real R&B which is far superior musically :), but the degree to which it was glorified in the US caused some harm IMO, particularly in poor areas where these kids often do not get appropriate role models from family.
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You must think growing up in the Great White North is all peaches & cream.
You seem to think it is... you bash America every chance you get on here.
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Wow Goatboy, ...thanks for setting me straight.
I don't know where I as a Black woman would be if I didn't have you to tell me all about the sentiments that run so deeply within the Black community. If I need any advice about the Black experience, I now know where to turn.
Goatboy IS actually arrogant and presumptuous enough to believe he can lecture you on your experiences as black person growing up in North America. Quite the character, he is.
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You seem to think it is... you bash America every chance you get on here.
It's not perfect, and all things are relative. Compared to growing up in America... it is. No bashing... just fact.
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Goatboy IS actually arrogant and presumptuous enough to believe he can lecture you on your experiences as black person growing up in North America. Quite the character, he is.
Where did I ever say "North America"? Everything I've been talking about has referred specifically to the USA and African American culture. Jag herself is always going on about how different Canada is in that regard.
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You seem to think it is... you bash America every chance you get on here.
"Bashing" is different than pointing out America's imperfections. By your standard MLK "bashed" America, yet he was a greater patriot than you'll ever hope to be.
Where did I ever say "North America"? Everything I've been talking about has referred specifically to the USA and African American culture. Jag herself is always going on about how different Canada is in that regard.
I specifically used North America, not you jackass. I believe there are some difference in terms of racial tolerance in Canada relative to the U.S. This may in part be due to slavery never being an institutionalized practice in that country. However, MY point in making it a continent issue is that while different, so many experiences of being a minority of African descent are the same.
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jaguar, what do you like better about Canada?
My only experience is visiting there a few times and besides the colder weather, it seemed very pleasant. People generally seemed welcoming and polite too. (plus there are a lot of good looking Canadian girls...hahaha)
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Hey, Judi... completely off topic, but what's the deal with ~flower~'s avatar?
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?action=profile;u=12499
Are you two fighting or something?
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what a snoozefest!
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"Bashing" is different than pointing out America's imperfections. By your standard MLK "bashed" America, yet he was a greater patriot than you'll ever hope to be.
I specifically used North America, not you jackass. I believe there are some difference in terms of racial tolerance in Canada relative to the U.S. This may in part be due to slavery never being an institutionalized practice in that country. However, MY point in making it a continent issue is that while different, so many experiences of being a minority of African descent are the same.
Bingo! The only innaccurate part of your statement was where you said slavery wasn't an institutionalized practice. Not true. Slavery was very much a pert of the Canadian experience. In fact, the very first slave ws brought into Canada before the MayFlower ever landed on Plymouth rock. The difference is, it was abolished throughout the British Empire, long before it was abolished stateside. Plus our country didn't fight a vicious, bitter war over it. In addition too, most of our border cities were founded by runaway slaves, ...and it kind of hard to rail against your neighbour irrationally when you're too busy freezing your boobies off.
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zzzzzzzzzzzzz
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I'm not going to list his military, government, and private sector experience. You can look that up yourself. Start with "My American Journey."
What you'll find in his auto, evaluating his record, and assessing him as a person is a very experienced, intelligent, diligent, articulate, bright man of integrity and faith. I don't think there is a man or woman in the country with his resume and intangibles.
Condi is close. :)
I'd love to see a Powell/Rice or Powell/Linda Lingle ticket. I'd be excited about either one.
More deviousness from BB.
Lets pick the negros who are not running for president and wax eloquent about them.
But the Negros with more or at least as impressive credentials who are running for president we'll ::) at.
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Bingo! The only innaccurate part of your statement was where you said slavery wasn't an institutionalized practice. Not true. Slavery was very much a pert of the Canadian experience. In fact, the very first slave ws brought into Canada before the MayFlower ever landed on Plymouth rock. The difference is, it was abolished throughout the British Empire, long before it was abolished stateside. Plus our country didn't fight a vicious, bitter war over it. In addition too, most of our border cities were founded by runaway slaves, ...and it kind of hard to rail against your neighbour irrationally when you're too busy freezing your boobies off.
Thanks for enlightening me. :) I had an inkling slavery was at one time practiced in Canada, but was not sure of the exact facts. I simply knew about how many blacks that escaped their slaveholders in the U.S. attempted to get across the border to Canada to seek safe haven. I believe slavery was abolished by Britain in around 1811, so there were a lot of years whereby it was still being practiced in the U.S. afterwards.
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jaguar, what do you like better about Canada?
My only experience is visiting there a few times and besides the colder weather, it seemed very pleasant. People generally seemed welcoming and polite too. (plus there are a lot of good looking Canadian girls...hahaha)
Well it sure ain't the weather. That's fer darn sure! ;D
Please don't take this the wrong way, ...but I find Canadians are a far more "civilized" lot. We're LIBERAL. Not in the pejorative way it is euphemistically used south of the border, ...but in the actual meaning of the word. We don't box ourselves in or attempt to box others into a prison of narrow conformity, only to demonize those who either cannot or will not fit into their neatly arranged little boxes. We find our strengths in diversity & inclusiveness. I find Canadians to be much more secular, cosmopolitan, intelligent, less ignorant, more informed, more socially responsible, thoughtful and caring about our neighbours (across the street, across the city, town, province, country... and around the world). Maybe it's because we ARE the world. Walk down the streets of downtown Toronto, and it looks like a mini United Nations. Most are 1st. & 2nd. generation Canadians. Our lives are not as segregated as in the US, and we talk to each other, understanding the different issues we all face. If we don't know, ...we seek to understand. We feel no sense of superiority to our neighbours based upon nationality (unless we're talking about those south of the border) ;) A huge percentage of us are all 1st & 2nd generation, so there isn't that "I'm Canadian and you're not" attitude. We know we're all immigrants in this shit together, building our country together, and we'll either sink or swim together, ...or worse... get gobbled up by US monoculture which, for many Canadians is a fate worse than death. Not trying to bash, ...but trying to be frank about Canadian sentiment. Canada is as sophisticated, worldly & cosmopolitan as any major world city, while still having retained small town values, morals, and ideals. Many Canadians fear Americans, ...and it's not your military might we fear, ...it's your culture, your attitudes, and incredible myopic ignorance that we find so horrifying we strive not to duplicate it here. For decades, it has been the running joke, ...our national sport next to hockey, ...but the last decade, the joke is no longer funny and has taken on frighteningly horrific proportions.
I don't attribute this to any natural intelligence on the part of Canadians. We too went through the things America is facing, but in Canada, the race for cultural supremacy, and the subjugation of the "other" didn't have the distinct lines of delination marked by skin colour. Canada's two warring tribes were both White Western European descendants. As a result the racism and misguided ideas of inherent racial superiority that facilitated the great divide in the US didn't take root to the same degree because the "other guys" looked just the first group. We Canadians had to look at the unfair & unequal treatment that might otherwise have been dismissed had it been visited upon many other ethnic groups with a differnt color skin etc., Having the benefit of sitting back and watching the conflicts that led to Watts, and a few other American cities burned to the ground gave us perspective. When we saw the bombs going off in Montreal we realized we had the same crap happening, only we couldn't point to those with Black skin. These terrorists were homegrown, born & bred, and they were white. We saw the mistakes of our neighbours and vowed not to repeat them. I think too, Canada had strong intelligent & wise leaders who got great advice. An extremely influential advisor to Prime Minister Trudeau the father of multiculturalism in Canada was xxxLinda's ex boss Jerry Goodis (http://www.empireclubfoundation.com/details.asp?FT=yes&SpeechID=146), an extremely successful ad man who got the rich & powerful to actually listen to the grievances of disenfranchised or marginalized Canadians.
Plus Canada has porn over the public airwaves without making you pay for premium cable to get it. :P
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Hey, Judi... completely off topic, but what's the deal with ~flower~'s avatar?
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?action=profile;u=12499
You'll have to ask ~flower~ about that. I'll simply say from my perspective... the woman has "issues". :-X
Are you two fighting or something?
If we are, it's completely one sided. I guess she doesn't have enough to do with her time I suppose. (http://www.jaguarenterprises.net/images/em/shrug.gif)
You really have to ask her about it. I don't know what her deal is, ...and quite frankly, ...I don't care.
Anyway guys, ...it's been fun, but I have a 10pm eastern conference call.
l8ter :)
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Canada has it's share of reactionary hicks too, Judi. You haven't been outside of the Toronto area much, have you? ::) And all the things you say about Toronto applies to many large American cities as well. You try to paint America as if every one is some uneducated bumpkin from small-town Alabama or something. ::)
Yes, you're more liberal, but that's not necessarily a positive. Socialism, even when practiced as Social Democracy (and that is what you have for all practical purposes), has far more negatives than positives, and just because we've chosen a different path doesn't mean you're right or we're wrong. America is less secular, and I'll agree that's a negative, but most of the rest of what you say is total crap and colored by your Canuck perspective.
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Well it sure ain't the weather. That's fer darn sure! ;D
Please don't take this the wrong way, ...but I find Canadians are a far more "civilized" lot. We're LIBERAL. Not in the pejorative way it is euphemistically used south of the border, ...but in the actual meaning of the word. We don't box ourselves in or attempt to box others into a prison of narrow conformity, only to demonize those who either cannot or will not fit into their neatly arranged little boxes. We find our strengths in diversity & inclusiveness. I find Canadians to be much more secular, cosmopolitan, intelligent, less ignorant, more informed, more socially responsible, thoughtful and caring about our neighbours (across the street, across the city, town, province, country... and around the world). Maybe it's because we ARE the world. Walk down the streets of downtown Toronto, and it looks like a mini United Nations. Most are 1st. & 2nd. generation Canadians. Our lives are not as segregated as in the US, and we talk to each other, understanding the different issues we all face. If we don't know, ...we seek to understand. We feel no sense of superiority to our neighbours based upon nationality (unless we're talking about those south of the border) ;) A huge percentage of us are all 1st & 2nd generation, so there isn't that "I'm Canadian and you're not" attitude. We know we're all immigrants in this shit together, building our country together, and we'll either sink or swim together, ...or worse... get gobbled up by US monoculture which, for many Canadians is a fate worse than death. Not trying to bash, ...but trying to be frank about Canadian sentiment. Canada is as sophisticated, worldly & cosmopolitan as any major world city, while still having retained small town values, morals, and ideals. Many Canadians fear Americans, ...and it's not your military might we fear, ...it's your culture, your attitudes, and incredible myopic ignorance that we find so horrifying we strive not to duplicate it here. For decades, it has been the running joke, ...our national sport next to hockey, ...but the last decade, the joke is no longer funny and has taken on frighteningly horrific proportions.
I don't attribute this to any natural intelligence on the part of Canadians. We too went through the things America is facing, but in Canada, the race for cultural supremacy, and the subjugation of the "other" didn't have the distinct lines of delination marked by skin colour. Canada's two warring tribes were both White Western European descendants. As a result the racism and misguided ideas of inherent racial superiority that facilitated the great divide in the US didn't take root to the same degree because the "other guys" looked just the first group. We Canadians had to look at the unfair & unequal treatment that might otherwise have been dismissed had it been visited upon many other ethnic groups with a differnt color skin etc., Having the benefit of sitting back and watching the conflicts that led to Watts, and a few other American cities burned to the ground gave us perspective. When we saw the bombs going off in Montreal we realized we had the same crap happening, only we couldn't point to those with Black skin. These terrorists were homegrown, born & bred, and they were white. We saw the mistakes of our neighbours and vowed not to repeat them. I think too, Canada had strong intelligent & wise leaders who got great advice. An extremely influential advisor to Prime Minister Trudeau the father of multiculturalism in Canada was xxxLinda's ex boss Jerry Goodis (http://www.empireclubfoundation.com/details.asp?FT=yes&SpeechID=146), an extremely successful ad man who got the rich & powerful to actually listen to the grievances of disenfranchised or marginalized Canadians.
Plus Canada has porn over the public airwaves without making you pay for premium cable to get it. :P
Boy it sounds tempting to move there. If satan mccain gets :o cheated into office i just may.
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Canada has it's share of reactionary hicks too, Judi. You haven't been outside of the Toronto area much, have you? ::) And all the things you say about Toronto applies to many large American cities as well. You try to paint America as if every one is some uneducated bumpkin from small-town Alabama or something. ::)
But you don't help to dispell such notions, Goatboy.
Yes, you're more liberal, but that's not necessarily a positive. Socialism, even when practiced as Social Democracy (and that is what you have for all practical purposes), has far more negatives than positives, and just because we've chosen a different path doesn't mean you're right or we're wrong. America is less secular, and I'll agree that's a negative, but most of the rest of what you say is total crap and colored by your Canuck perspective.
Nah, she may have painted a slightly rosy picture but I think she's pretty much spot on. :)
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But you don't help to dispell such notions, Goatboy.
This is what pisses me off most about liberals... their arrogance. They automatically assume that if someone disagrees with their preferred political positions, that person must therefore be uneducated, unintelligent, or ignorant. I'm willing to accept that a person can be very intelligent and well educated, yet come to a very different conclusion or opinion on something than I have. For some reason, most liberals seem to lack that insight.
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This is what pisses me off most about liberals... their arrogance. They automatically assume that if someone disagrees with their preferred political positions, that person must therefore be uneducated, unintelligent, or ignorant. I'm willing to accept that a person can be very intelligent and well educated, yet come to a very different conclusion or opinion on something than I have. For some reason, most liberals seem to lack that insight.
At the same time, most neoconservatives
1) Believe if you're liberal you're going to hell
2) Believe they're guaranteed a ticket to heaven
3) Believe wars aren't about bases, drugs, or oil - just about 'spreading freedom'.
4) Use the word "lib" to denounce then discard any belief counter to white hosue policy
5) Blame Clinton for every problem in america from 2001 to 2008.
So they're just as bad. Telling people they're going to hell because they don't support a pre-emptive war for lifestyle maintenance is quite ironic.
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At the same time, most neoconservatives
1) Believe if you're liberal you're going to hell
2) Believe they're guaranteed a ticket to heaven
3) Believe wars aren't about bases, drugs, or oil - just about 'spreading freedom'.
4) Use the word "lib" to denounce then discard any belief counter to white hosue policy
5) Blame Clinton for every problem in america from 2001 to 2008.
So they're just as bad. Telling people they're going to hell because they don't support a pre-emptive war for lifestyle maintenance is quite ironic.
I agree with most of your points. But about #3, I don't think they actually believe that, they just understand that most americans are not sophisticated enough to understand the current world situation re: oil or what happens if oil supplies get inturrupted, so they needed a cover story.
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I agree with most of your points. But about #3, I don't think they actually believe that, they just understand that most americans are not sophisticated enough to understand the current world situation re: oil or what happens if oil supplies get inturrupted, so they needed a cover story.
BB and joelocal argued it for two years. "war isn't about oil". They said it a thousand times.
Then, when Bush stood in Rose Garden and said the war IS about oil, their tune became "It's a *little* about oil, but mostly about freedom, and there were no plans for oil going on - that came later".
When shown WIKI details on Cheney assigning iraqi oil field rights to US firms before 9/11, they just get quiet.
Annoying bunch, I tells ya.
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BB and joelocal argued it for two years. "war isn't about oil". They said it a thousand times.
Then, when Bush stood in Rose Garden and said the war IS about oil, their tune became "It's a *little* about oil, but mostly about freedom, and there were no plans for oil going on - that came later".
When shown WIKI details on Cheney assigning iraqi oil field rights to US firms before 9/11, they just get quiet.
Annoying bunch, I tells ya.
Oh... I misunderstood. You weren't talking about those who made policy or had an understanding of what was really up, you meant the great unwashed who just parrot their respective party line. Hell, that describes 80% of the electorate on both sides.
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Canada has it's share of reactionary hicks too, Judi. You haven't been outside of the Toronto area much, have you? ::) And all the things you say about Toronto applies to many large American cities as well. You try to paint America as if every one is some uneducated bumpkin from small-town Alabama or something. ::)
Actually, ...you just painted small-town Alabamans as reactionary hicks. I don't know about you, ...but I have friends and colleagues from Alabama, and I sure wouldn't classify them as hicks.
Yes, you're more liberal, but that's not necessarily a positive. Socialism, even when practiced as Social Democracy (and that is what you have for all practical purposes), has far more negatives than positives, and just because we've chosen a different path doesn't mean you're right or we're wrong. America is less secular, and I'll agree that's a negative, but most of the rest of what you say is total crap and colored by your Canuck perspective.
He asked me what I liked about Canada, and you're telling me my view is coloured by my Canadian perspective?!?!
Well dah! That's exactly what he asked for. Yes, Canada chose a different path from the US. While your country was pilfering your national treasury to pay for an unnecessary war of aggression thousands of miles across the globe, Canada was instead reaching out to those who were different, and addressing long standing grievances within her population, instituting universal healthcare and building & strengthening the country both socially & economically, ...while American cities burned, and people marched in the streets demanding the civil rights the constitution promised. When vietnam was over, you had no money to care for your wounded & disabled vets, let alone provide universal healthcare, and one of your biggest crooks got in bed with the insurance providers culminating in the current system of uncloaked pernicious greed that dares to call itself healthcare.
Now here we are 30 yrs later, and you're all set to travel down that same road... again. Yes, my country has chosen a different path from yours, ...and that's just one of the things I like. The question was not however who's right and who's wrong. The question posed to me was "what do you like about Canada?" Please do try to keep up.
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Sometimes its embarrasing to be american....Ever since bush was exposed as a huge liar of EPIC proportions and dumber than a box of rocks....theres been no pride.
70% of our country thinks hes a retarded mess...at least thats a good point i guess... :)
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I agree with most of your points. But about #3, I don't think they actually believe that, they just understand that most americans are not sophisticated enough to understand the current world situation re: oil or what happens if oil supplies get inturrupted, so they needed a cover story.
So which is it Goatboy, on the one hand you dismiss my assessment as the rants of a Canuck LIB, yet you admit:
"most americans are not sophisticated enough to understand the current world situation".
Which makes a vote for McCain or Hillary, all the more dangerous for your country and the world.
An invasion of Iran will shut this continent down without Achmenijad or any Ayatollah or Revolutionary Guard member having to fire a shot. Shutting down the straits of Hormuz will cripple any society run on oil. That's why you need a leader who'll invest in alternative, sustainable, renewable energy, not someone focussed on squeezing every last drop out of the ground, while profitting big oil, and the very people seeking to destroy you, and causing every man, woman, and child in your country to submit to a life of indentured servitude to the Fed, and to a rising superpower without your best interests in mind. If you think China is going to care about American citizens, and respect the US Constitution, you have only to look at how China treats her own citizens, and cares for her own environment to give you a good accurate read on that.
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So which is it Goatboy, on the one hand you dismiss my assessment as the rants of a Canuck LIB, yet you admit:
"most americans are not sophisticated enough to understand the current world situation".
Most Canadians don't understand the real deal with oil either. Then again, since you've got a ton of it relative to your population size, it's really not much of an issue for you.
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Well it sure ain't the weather. That's fer darn sure! ;D
Please don't take this the wrong way, ...but I find Canadians are a far more "civilized" lot. We're LIBERAL. Not in the pejorative way it is euphemistically used south of the border, ...but in the actual meaning of the word. We don't box ourselves in or attempt to box others into a prison of narrow conformity, only to demonize those who either cannot or will not fit into their neatly arranged little boxes. We find our strengths in diversity & inclusiveness. I find Canadians to be much more secular, cosmopolitan, intelligent, less ignorant, more informed, more socially responsible, thoughtful and caring about our neighbours (across the street, across the city, town, province, country... and around the world). Maybe it's because we ARE the world. Walk down the streets of downtown Toronto, and it looks like a mini United Nations. Most are 1st. & 2nd. generation Canadians. Our lives are not as segregated as in the US, and we talk to each other, understanding the different issues we all face. If we don't know, ...we seek to understand. We feel no sense of superiority to our neighbours based upon nationality (unless we're talking about those south of the border) ;) A huge percentage of us are all 1st & 2nd generation, so there isn't that "I'm Canadian and you're not" attitude. We know we're all immigrants in this shit together, building our country together, and we'll either sink or swim together, ...or worse... get gobbled up by US monoculture which, for many Canadians is a fate worse than death. Not trying to bash, ...but trying to be frank about Canadian sentiment. Canada is as sophisticated, worldly & cosmopolitan as any major world city, while still having retained small town values, morals, and ideals. Many Canadians fear Americans, ...and it's not your military might we fear, ...it's your culture, your attitudes, and incredible myopic ignorance that we find so horrifying we strive not to duplicate it here. For decades, it has been the running joke, ...our national sport next to hockey, ...but the last decade, the joke is no longer funny and has taken on frighteningly horrific proportions.
I don't attribute this to any natural intelligence on the part of Canadians. We too went through the things America is facing, but in Canada, the race for cultural supremacy, and the subjugation of the "other" didn't have the distinct lines of delination marked by skin colour. Canada's two warring tribes were both White Western European descendants. As a result the racism and misguided ideas of inherent racial superiority that facilitated the great divide in the US didn't take root to the same degree because the "other guys" looked just the first group. We Canadians had to look at the unfair & unequal treatment that might otherwise have been dismissed had it been visited upon many other ethnic groups with a differnt color skin etc., Having the benefit of sitting back and watching the conflicts that led to Watts, and a few other American cities burned to the ground gave us perspective. When we saw the bombs going off in Montreal we realized we had the same crap happening, only we couldn't point to those with Black skin. These terrorists were homegrown, born & bred, and they were white. We saw the mistakes of our neighbours and vowed not to repeat them. I think too, Canada had strong intelligent & wise leaders who got great advice. An extremely influential advisor to Prime Minister Trudeau the father of multiculturalism in Canada was xxxLinda's ex boss Jerry Goodis (http://www.empireclubfoundation.com/details.asp?FT=yes&SpeechID=146), an extremely successful ad man who got the rich & powerful to actually listen to the grievances of disenfranchised or marginalized Canadians.
Plus Canada has porn over the public airwaves without making you pay for premium cable to get it. :P
Toronto smells like a sewer in the summer, (but I do miss it ;)).
You missed the fact that Canada IS in Afghanistan and IS helping with the war in Iraq in "supply" type functions. Canada may not be going down the same path as America in some ways but Canada's hands aren't completly clean, in regards to it's war stance. (I guess this is where you think Harper is a bastard. :-\)
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Thanks for the answer, obviously took some time to type.
One of America's problems is that many leaders believe its our responsibility as a world leader to police other nations. This costs an immense amount of $ not to mention the debt of American lives. It is a noble cause to help other nations that need help, but IMO we must pull back some to both protect our nation and protect our national reputation. One difficulty is that the US gives a lot of aid...if we withdraw that, we may be viewed as bad and uncaring again.
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As far as Canada being liberal, I can't speak about how Canadia liberalism is different than American liberalism (I suspect it is different) but if it is like some European cities I've been to, people seem to mix better and are not be placed into categories and sub-cultures based on race. The liberals in this country are at least as much to blame as the right wingers, as they have strongly promoted programs that separate people by race since the civil rights act, this has also contributed to separatist feelings and furthering sub-cultures. People may underestimate the effect of sub-culture in continued racial divides. When I went to England, I noticed black and white people acted, dressed and spoke very similarly. Here, that is not always the case, particularly when there are class differences. Federally funded entitlement programs then caused some backlash and feelings of resentment among some non-blacks which contributed to the continued struggle. The fact that slavery ended 50 yrs later in the US may be the root of the issue. Compounding our difficulties is the fact that there continued to be angry activists forming a cultural feeling of being wronged, being helpless and deserving entitlements and federal policies based on race which lead to separatism and mounted tensions on both sides post the civil rights laws. These issues in our country have lead to some anger and feelings of entitlement that perhaps Canadian blacks have not felt or at least not as strongly. Either way, the best way to move forward is to acknowledge the past but recognize the best ways of continuing to move past it as other countries have already done.
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Toronto smells like a sewer in the summer, (but I do miss it ;)).
You must have lived in the beaches. ;)
You missed the fact that Canada IS in Afghanistan and IS helping with the war in Iraq in "supply" type functions. Canada may not be going down the same path as America in some ways but Canada's hands aren't completly clean, in regards to it's war stance. (I guess this is where you think Harper is a bastard. :-\)
Didn't miss that at all. I didn't sat Canada's hand were completely clean. Just that we didn't take the same path over Vietnam, and we didn't take the same path over Iraq. I pointed out where I think Harper is a bastard. That and also the fact that he started a BS campaign against Obama. Clinton called his office to say she was just BS'ing Ohio on her stance about NAFTA and for Canadians not to worry. Then Harper's people throw it all over the airwaves that it was Obama doing the BS'ing? And they do this on the eve of the Ohio primary? That's just one of the reasons he's a bastard in my books.
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As far as Canada being liberal, I can't speak about how Canadia liberalism is different than American liberalism (I suspect it is different) but if it is like some European cities I've been to, people seem to mix better and are not be placed into categories and sub-cultures based on race. The liberals in this country are at least as much to blame as the right wingers, as they have strongly promoted programs that separate people by race since the civil rights act, this has also contributed to separatist feelings and furthering sub-cultures. People may underestimate the effect of sub-culture in continued racial divides. When I went to England, I noticed black and white people acted, dressed and spoke very similarly. Here, that is not always the case, particularly when there are class differences. Federally funded entitlement programs then caused some backlash and feelings of resentment among some non-blacks which contributed to the continued struggle. The fact that slavery ended 50 yrs later in the US may be the root of the issue. Compounding our difficulties is the fact that there continued to be angry activists forming a cultural feeling of being wronged, being helpless and deserving entitlements and federal policies based on race which lead to separatism and mounted tensions on both sides post the civil rights laws. These issues in our country have lead to some anger and feelings of entitlement that perhaps Canadian blacks have not felt or at least not as strongly. Either way, the best way to move forward is to acknowledge the past but recognize the best ways of continuing to move past it as other countries have already done.
It is the same here in Canada as well. Blacks & Whites both act and dress very similarly as well. It has only been in recent years with the ushering in of so called "Common Sense Revolution" (right wing majority government) that came into power in 1996 (and subsequently fvcked up this province soooo badly) along with what many classify as "cultural pollution" from the USA that we have begun to see a distinctive change in our young people. More & more poorer disenfranchised Black kids are adopting the styles and attitudes of American gangsta thugs, ...and of course this is also spreading to upper class white suburban kids as well who think it's cool to emulate these styles. They're quite laughable at time. I see all the little private school kids around my house. They will congregate in McD's change into their hip hop gangsta clothes and be all bad ass, ...then change back into their uniforms before going home to Mommy & Daddy. ::)
The great divide in the US has to do not so much with the fact that slavery ended later in the US. It has to do with the fact that "segregation" was the law of the land. We had no such legislated discrimination here. When you forcibly separate a people, you shouldn't be surprised to see that they veer down two different paths and adopt different habits, develope different cultures, and different speech patterns. heck, look at the US. Try to find an American who speaks with a British accent. that wasn't too difficult to do in 1776, but as the years wore on, you now speak differently than those over in the UK, you spell things differently too. it's the same with the French Canadians. When Canada confederated in 1867, the Quebecois had been removed from France for over 200 yrs. They knew they weren't British, ...but they sure knew they weren't French anymore either. Even their language changed. Ask a Parisian from France to converse with a Quebecois and his brain bleeds just trying to understand them. my girlfriend is Belgian. Whenever we're in Montreal and people ask her if she speaks French, ...she just lies and says NO. {lol}
There are angry activists who have a right to be angry, and there were entitlement programs that were administered ineffectively and exploited by all sides to further their own agendas, and of course this leads to resentments, but there comes a time when one has to sit down and examine what went wrong, where, and why, and proceed. throwing the baby out with the bath water and harbouring additional hostilities isn't going to get you where you want to be or where you ought to be. I think requiring as so many in the USA do, that people fit into neat little boxes, and being afraid of what is different is what holds you back. the rush to conformity is mindboggling. I see it only because I am removed from it.
Our society also developed differently as well. I could be wrong, but I think close to 50% of our population is made up of 1st. & 2nd generation immigrants. We didn't have an entire class of people legislated to languish in poverty. Strike that. We do. Our native population hasn't fared so well over the years, and we do have entitlement programs as far as they are concerned. There are alot of grievances in the native aboriginal communities, and rightfully so. Our governments over the years have sought to address many of them, but again, no country is perfect. There is a large amount of aboriginals who like many of Wright's generation feel anger, and bitter resentment for what they've had to endure, and the attrocities committed against their people. There are also alot who have overcome, ...and with native self-determination, the situation in alot of the native communities and on the reserves is changing and improving for the better.
Since Prime Minister Pierre Elliot Trudeau ushered in a policy of multiculturalism, Toronto, which was whiter than wonderbread when I moved here, has turned into a vibrant cosmopolitan metropolis with every shade, hue, religion, and ethnicity under the sun. Our immigration patterns mirror world populations, and we have in a sense recreated the entire world right here in Canada in the space of a generation. As a result, we grew together, rather than apart.
Canadian leaders also are not afraid to tackle situations using a different approach, or quick to demonize something just because it came from someone who may not be popular. I'm thinking about Jean Crétien here. I remember when we had that Quebec referendum on sovereignty, and he borrowed a page out of Louis Farrakhan's playbook, and bussed Canadians in from all over the country to Quebec. It was a good idea, and it worked. We narrowly avoided separation. I could never see ANY US politico trying something suggested by a Farrakhan. It'd be denounced simply because of the messenger. I think people need to get over that. Get past the messenger & listen to the message
If you really want to know more about Canada, and how we developed, do a search on here, for a 3 part post I made a few yrs ago called "Canada - The Great Northern Experiment". I think it was posted in the General section.