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Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: Deicide on March 21, 2008, 03:20:05 PM
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sam-harris/what-barack-obama-could-n_b_92771.html
Barack Obama delivered a truly brilliant and inspiring speech this week. There were a few things, however, that he did not and could not (and, indeed, should not) say:
He did not say that the mess he is in has as much to do with religion as with racism--and, indeed, religion is the reason why our political discourse in this country is so scandalously stupid. As Christopher Hitchens observed in Slate months ago, one glance at the website of the Trinity United Church of Christ should have convinced anyone that Obama's connection to Reverend Jeremiah A. Wright Jr. would be a problem at some point in this campaign. Why couldn't Obama just cut his ties to his church and move on?
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Well, among other inexpediencies, this might have put his faith in Jesus in question. After all, Reverend Wright was the man who brought him to the "foot of the cross." Might the Senator from Illinois be unsure whether the Creator of the universe brought forth his only Son from the womb of a Galilean virgin, taught him the carpenter's trade, and then had him crucified for our benefit? Few suspicions could be more damaging in American politics today.
The stultifying effect of religion is everywhere to be seen in the 2008 Presidential campaign. The faith of the candidates has been a constant concern in the Republican contest, of course--where John McCain, lacking the expected aura of born-again bamboozlement, has been struggling to entice some proper religious maniacs to his cause. He now finds himself in the compassionate embrace of Pastor John Hagee, a man who claims to know that a global war will soon precipitate the Rapture and the Second Coming of Jesus Christ (problem solved). Prior to McCain's ascendancy, we saw Governor Mitt Romney driven from the field by a Creationist yokel and his sectarian hordes. And this, despite the fact that the governor had been wearing consecrated Mormon underpants all the while, whose powers of protection are as yet unrecognized by Evangelicals.
Like every candidate, Obama must appeal to millions of voters who believe that without religion, most of us would spend our days raping and killing our neighbors and stealing their pornography. Examples of well-behaved and comparatively atheistic societies like Sweden, Finland, Norway, and Denmark--which surpass us in terrestrial virtues like education, health, public generosity, per capita aid to the developing world, and low rates of violent crime and infant mortality--are of no interest to our electorate whatsoever. It is, of course, good to know that people like Reverend Wright occasionally do help the poor, feed the hungry, and care for the sick. But wouldn't it be better to do these things for reasons that are not manifestly delusional? Can we care for one another without believing that Jesus Christ rose from the dead and is now listening to our thoughts?
Yes we can.
Happily, Obama did a fine job of distancing himself from Reverend Wright's divisive views on racism in America, along with his fatuous "chickens come home to roost" assessment of our war against Islamic terrorism. But he did not (and should not) acknowledge that the worst parts of Reverend Wright's sermons, as with most sermons, are his appeals to the empty hopes and baseless fears of his parishioners--people who could surely find better ways of advancing their interests in this world, if only they could banish the fiction of a world to come.
Obama did not say that religion's effect on our society, and on the black community especially, has been destructive--and where it has seemed constructive it has generally taken the place of better things. Religion unites, motivates, and consoles beleaguered people not with knowledge, but with superstition and false promises. Surely there is a better way to bring people together in the 21st century. The truth is, despite the toothsomeness of his campaign slogan, we are not yet the people we have been waiting for. And if we don't start talking sense to our children, they won't be the ones we are waiting for either.
Obama was surely wise not to mention that Christianity was, without question, the great enabler of slavery in this country. The Confederate soldiers who eagerly laid down their lives at three times the rate of Union men, for the pleasure of keeping blacks in bondage and using them as farm equipment, did so with the conscious understanding that they were doing the Lord's work. After Reconstruction, religion united Southern whites in their racist hatred and the black community in its squalor--inuring men and women on both sides to injustice far more efficiently than it inspired them to overcome it.
The problem of religious fatalism, ignorance, and false hope, while plain to see in most religious contexts, is now especially obvious in the black community. The popularity of "prosperity gospel" is perhaps the most galling example: where unctuous crooks like T.D. Jakes and Creflo Dollar persuade undereducated and underprivileged men and women to pray for wealth, while tithing what little wealth they have to their corrupt and swollen ministries. Men like Jakes and Dollar, whatever occasional good they may do, are unconscionable predators and curators of human ignorance. Is it too soon to say this in American politics? Yes it is.
Despite all that he does not and cannot say, Obama's candidacy is genuinely thrilling: his heart is clearly in the right place; he is an order of magnitude more intelligent than the current occupant of the Oval Office; and he still stands a decent chance of becoming the next President of the United States. His election in November really would be a triumph of hope.
But Obama's candidacy is also depressing, for it demonstrates that even a person of the greatest candor and eloquence must still claim to believe the unbelievable in order to have a political career in this country. We may be ready for the audacity of hope. Will we ever be ready for the audacity of reason?
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De. Did you know the book of revelation says that goverments would turn on religion and destroy her for all the chaos she caused.
The wild beast (world goverment) is ridden by the harlot (False religions) it uses her for a time to raise some money but then turns and devours her in the name of PEACE.....
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I actually tried to read it, but he lost me here:
Obama was surely wise not to mention that Christianity was, without question, the great enabler of slavery in this country.
Absolutely false. The great "enabler" of slavery was racism, not Christianity. ::)
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He got fvcking owned by Reza Aslan ;D
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A different perspective:
Commentary: Race, faith and politics
By Roland S. Martin
CNN Contributor
(CNN) -- The revelation of controversial comments made by the longtime pastor of Sen. Barack Obama, and the equally hot aftermath from the general public that led to the junior senator from Illinois delivering a strong speech/sermon on race in America, has opened anew the explosive connection between three of the most volatile issues today.
If a poll were taken, there is no doubt that race, faith and politics would be the most emotional, passionate and divisive topics. Why? Because all three are so deeply personal. What one person sees as a negative, another would determine as a strength.
Republicans strongly believe that they are superior and right on the direction of the nation compared to Democrats. African Americans are protective of their culture and ways of living, while whites routinely ask why we can't just be one nation with no labels. Catholics contend they are the one and only true church, while Baptists will say that being dipped in the water after making a personal decision to give your life to Christ is the true way of salvation for the believer.
As a Christian, I've seen church members go toe-to-toe when discussing either one of these issues, and can remember some late night debates in college that would have made the toes of Lincoln and Douglas curl.
So why did the comments of the Rev. Jeremiah Wright strike such a core, and how did it lead to Obama to give a speech on race? That was the question posed to me in a number of e-mails, and like Obama stated in his speech, it's really America's lack of understanding -- no, refusal to accept -- how the different races live and act.
The Kerner Commission stated in 1968 that we were living in two Americas -- one black and one white. When we examine the TV shows we all watch, those in the top 10 for whites are vastly different than those for blacks. Musical tastes vary, so do cultural norms. We all kid ourselves that during March Madness, the courts are loaded with mostly African American ballplayers, yet when the College World Series tips off in May, you will see mostly whites on the baseball diamond.
But we are also separate when it comes to worship. The Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. said the most segregated hour of the week is 10 a.m. on Sunday morning. And it still is. For Christians, we may celebrate the same Jesus, but how we do so and with whom is very different.
I fundamentally believe that whites, blacks -- and yes, Hispanics and Asians -- reacted differently when hearing the snippets of Wright's preaching. Not solely because of content, but also style. For African Americans and a lot of Southern whites who are accustomed to a certain style of preaching, the thundering voice that drops to a whisper, the weaving of social issues with the theological, is common.
Even former Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee -- while not embracing Wright -- agreed with that point.
Yet our view of America is also different. Justified? No. Just different.
While many white Americans will look at Memorial or Veterans Day as an opportunity to celebrate our armed forces, African Americans do the same, but also will think historically about black troops hung from trees, still in their uniforms. They will think of black soldiers returning home to America during World War II forced to sit in the back of the train, while German Nazis got to sit up front.
When Wright was castigated for being anti-American for saying "God damn America!" -- which was not delivered in his speech about September 11, 2001 -- I couldn't help but think about that famous speech Dr. King gave at Riverside Church on April 4, 1967, when he blasted America's involvement in the Vietnam War.
King was disowned by many of his supporters, was denounced as a traitor to the nation and his speaking fees dried up.
See, even the man who many conservatives quote today with fervor, was treated as an outcast in his own country.
Our shared experiences today may not be so raw and overt as America's racial past, but we can't forget how our past defines us today.
Are these excuses? Nope. Just a dose of reality.
I watched Joe Scarborough on MSNBC say, while qualifying that these weren't his views, that a blue-collar man in Youngstown, Ohio, didn't want to hear about race from a black man who went to Harvard and his black wife who went to Princeton.
He's probably right. But what Scarborough failed to mention is that same black man came from a single-parent home where the mom had to go on welfare just to feed her family. That same black woman lived in a two-bedroom home and saw her parents bust their butts to make ends meet, and scrape together every penny to send their children to the nation's finest schools.
Isn't that the dream of every white, blue-collar parent, and every black, blue-collar parent? So why should such success be seen as anger towards someone else?
When we sit down, break bread together and truly listen and learn from one another, our world view changes.
For the last few months I've seen that experience up close and personal at my church in Chicago, Illinois.
The Rev. James Meeks, founder and senior pastor of Salem Baptist Church, a predominantly black congregation, has been engaged in worship with another predominantly white mega-church, Willow Creek, led by its founder and senior pastor, Bill Hybels.
The pastors of Illinois' two largest churches have been engaged in the swapping of youth members and choirs, have preached at each other's church, and have made it their mission to break down the racial and economic walls that exist between Christians.
It has been rocky at times. Watching the faces of African Americans at a Willow Creek worship service, it is clear they find it a bit jarring -- from the style of preaching to the music. But the common denominator is the same: Jesus.
There is no doubt that a lot of Americans are angry and confused by Obama staying at Trinity United Church of Christ and not disowning his pastor.
Folks, that's just not what church folks do. I don't recall folks asking members of the Rev. Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson to leave their churches in droves. They knew their leaders are fallible and make mistakes. Should they be criticized for hateful and divisive comments? Absolutely. Disowned?
I would never say that.
This is an opportunity for us. Those of us in the media, as Obama said, can continue to run the same clips, but is that providing healing to America?
No.
What we can do is begin to show where communities are coming together, talking openly and honestly about their hurts, frustrations and pain. Will we get angry and upset because of the other person isn't fully getting what we are trying to say? Of course! But until we decide to look in that mirror, and confront our deep-seated fears of the other because of their race, religion and political affiliation, we'll remain a fractured nation.
The Bible says don't put new wine in old wine skins. So let's stop using the resentments and anger of the past against the people of today and the future.
So, what are YOU prepared to do?
Roland S. Martin is a nationally award-winning journalist and CNN contributor. Martin is studying to receive his master's degree in Christian communications at Louisiana Baptist University. You can read more of his columns at http://www.rolandsmartin.com/.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/03/21/roland.martin/index.html
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I actually tried to read it, but he lost me here:
Absolutely false. The great "enabler" of slavery was racism, not Christianity. ::)
yep, plenty of racists used the bible to justify their actions
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yep, plenty of racists used the bible to justify their actions
And plenty did not. Racism, not Christianity, fueled slavery. Some attempted to use the Bible to justify their racism, but the Bible isn't what enabled slavery. That's simply historically inaccurate.
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And plenty did not. Racism, not Christianity, fueled slavery. Some attempted to use the Bible to justify their racism, but the Bible isn't what enabled slavery. That's simply historically inaccurate.
the bible certainly enabled slavery
It didn't create it but it was used extensively as proof that God condoned it
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He got fvcking owned by Reza Aslan ;D
He did not. More like a draw.
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He did not. More like a draw.
Bullshit, Sam almost fvcking passed out from being embarassed.
Just an observation, it's all good ;D
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Bullshit, Sam almost fvcking passed out from being embarassed.
Just an observation, it's all good ;D
How did Reza show that the Koran is the infallible word of the Creator of the universe, if I may ask? If he did not do that, then I do not think he won.
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And plenty did not. Racism, not Christianity, fueled slavery. Some attempted to use the Bible to justify their racism, but the Bible isn't what enabled slavery. That's simply historically inaccurate.
Is there anybody here who really thinks that if beach bum had lived in the 1850s he would not have been a staunch supporter of slavery? ::)
Is there a bigger/more devious supporter of the status quo on here?
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Is there anybody here who really thinks that if beach bum had lived in the 1850s he would not have been a staunch supporter of slavery? ::)
Is there a bigger/more devious supporter of the status quo on here?
Wait til obama wins the white house.
beach bum will be the biggest liberal socialist on here. He'll defend anything obama does. He'll say he was rooting for this 'agent of change' all along.
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How did Reza show that the Koran is the infallible word of the Creator of the universe, if I may ask? If he did not do that, then I do not think he won.
That's not even what the debate was about. Sam's ignorance about the subject was completely exposed, which left him grasping for straws and trying to hold on to his conciousness ;D I actually felt bad for the guy.
I don't think Reza Aslan has ever went on a show to preach Islam, quite obviously because he is NOT a preacher. I guess you have always ahve trouble staying on topic ;)
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That's not even what the debate was about. Sam's ignorance about the subject was completely exposed, which left him grasping for straws and trying to hold on to his conciousness ;D I actually felt bad for the guy.
I don't think Reza Aslan has ever went on a show to preach Islam, quite obviously because he is NOT a preacher. I guess you have always ahve trouble staying on topic ;)
Who's Reza Aslan? An Iranian named after the main character in the Chronicles of Narniarr?
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Who's Reza Aslan? An Iranian named after the main character in the Chronicles of Narniarr?
Scholar of religion and middle eastern studies.
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Scholar of religion and middle eastern studies.
Link to university where he teaches or something.
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Link to university where he teaches or something.
I don't really know much abt him, just watched the debate between him and harris. ya know, google is quite handy these days when tryin to find info on some one, I suggest u try it yourself ;D
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He got fvcking owned by Reza Aslan ;D
Haha, haven't we been through this? Your delusions (faith in the koran) and this statement are idiotic.
And plenty did not. Racism, not Christianity, fueled slavery. Some attempted to use the Bible to justify their racism, but the Bible isn't what enabled slavery. That's simply historically inaccurate.
Maybe it was the koran? :P
The koran promotes slavery.
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I actually tried to read it, but he lost me here:
Absolutely false. The great "enabler" of slavery was racism, not Christianity. ::)
No actually it was Christianity bro, in a round about way
See we had something in the 15th century called 'protestant work ethic" and the composer of "Amazing Grace" our good old boy John Newton, was indeed a slave trader, slaves were not seen as people mind you, and they were assets that England was being allowed to take because the African kings of Medullow (sp) and Sierra Leone were being bribed.
Later on it was a spread of Calvinsism.
On a side note anyone that teaches Middle Eastern religion and is not a middle eastern kinda can't back it up, because some stuff the books don't and won teach
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Throwing the accusation of being a true racist is a heavy thing calmus. From the short time I have been here, I don't see BeachBum as being racist. He has different views from you. In reality, you are very liberal man...thats cool, it gives us a mix and different ideas to debate. Save the racist label for people that really deserve it. I think this a big mistake by some liberal minded people, just because others may not agree with ultra liberal policies or reparations or may criticize minority activists doesn't mean they don't understand or are racist. Maybe BeachBum has other posts that I haven't seen in the last couple weeks but be cautious when using the term racist. That has strong meaning and should be substantiated.
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That's not even what the debate was about. Sam's ignorance about the subject was completely exposed, which left him grasping for straws and trying to hold on to his conciousness ;D I actually felt bad for the guy.
I don't think Reza Aslan has ever went on a show to preach Islam, quite obviously because he is NOT a preacher.
Okay, I just youtubed the debate. Never heard of either one until today.
I have to agree with Haider. Reza Aslan made an extremely compelling case for his argument, while Sam Harris appeared to be clinging to a conclusion that was very skillfullly dismantled by Reza.
ps: It's really refreshing to see a debate without childish attempts to demean, belittle, and humiliate your opponent.
It's like we've been trained to view debate as spectacles for entertainment rather than forums for enlightenment.
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I don't agree with most of Obama's policies but among the positives with him being president is verifying exactly how far this country has come and showing minority youth, by example, a way to act and carry oneself to be successful. Just as death metal culture wasn't very productive at giving the kids the tools and work ethic they needed to succeed, rap has done the same thing with this generation. It has glorified traits that are antagonistic to success while promoting material goods and defiant attitudes (and lowered the quality of musicianship in music...as most real musicians agree).
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A different perspective:
Commentary: Race, faith and politics
By Roland S. Martin
CNN Contributor
(CNN) -- The revelation of controversial comments made by the longtime pastor of Sen. Barack Obama, and the equally hot aftermath from the general public that led to the junior senator from Illinois delivering a strong speech/sermon on race in America, has opened anew the explosive connection between three of the most volatile issues today.
If a poll were taken, there is no doubt that race, faith and politics would be the most emotional, passionate and divisive topics. Why? Because all three are so deeply personal. What one person sees as a negative, another would determine as a strength.
Republicans strongly believe that they are superior and right on the direction of the nation compared to Democrats. African Americans are protective of their culture and ways of living, while whites routinely ask why we can't just be one nation with no labels. Catholics contend they are the one and only true church, while Baptists will say that being dipped in the water after making a personal decision to give your life to Christ is the true way of salvation for the believer.
As a Christian, I've seen church members go toe-to-toe when discussing either one of these issues, and can remember some late night debates in college that would have made the toes of Lincoln and Douglas curl.
So why did the comments of the Rev. Jeremiah Wright strike such a core, and how did it lead to Obama to give a speech on race? That was the question posed to me in a number of e-mails, and like Obama stated in his speech, it's really America's lack of understanding -- no, refusal to accept -- how the different races live and act.
The Kerner Commission stated in 1968 that we were living in two Americas -- one black and one white. When we examine the TV shows we all watch, those in the top 10 for whites are vastly different than those for blacks. Musical tastes vary, so do cultural norms. We all kid ourselves that during March Madness, the courts are loaded with mostly African American ballplayers, yet when the College World Series tips off in May, you will see mostly whites on the baseball diamond.
But we are also separate when it comes to worship. The Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. said the most segregated hour of the week is 10 a.m. on Sunday morning. And it still is. For Christians, we may celebrate the same Jesus, but how we do so and with whom is very different.
I fundamentally believe that whites, blacks -- and yes, Hispanics and Asians -- reacted differently when hearing the snippets of Wright's preaching. Not solely because of content, but also style. For African Americans and a lot of Southern whites who are accustomed to a certain style of preaching, the thundering voice that drops to a whisper, the weaving of social issues with the theological, is common.
Even former Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee -- while not embracing Wright -- agreed with that point.
Yet our view of America is also different. Justified? No. Just different.
While many white Americans will look at Memorial or Veterans Day as an opportunity to celebrate our armed forces, African Americans do the same, but also will think historically about black troops hung from trees, still in their uniforms. They will think of black soldiers returning home to America during World War II forced to sit in the back of the train, while German Nazis got to sit up front.
When Wright was castigated for being anti-American for saying "God damn America!" -- which was not delivered in his speech about September 11, 2001 -- I couldn't help but think about that famous speech Dr. King gave at Riverside Church on April 4, 1967, when he blasted America's involvement in the Vietnam War.
King was disowned by many of his supporters, was denounced as a traitor to the nation and his speaking fees dried up.
See, even the man who many conservatives quote today with fervor, was treated as an outcast in his own country.
Our shared experiences today may not be so raw and overt as America's racial past, but we can't forget how our past defines us today.
Are these excuses? Nope. Just a dose of reality.
I watched Joe Scarborough on MSNBC say, while qualifying that these weren't his views, that a blue-collar man in Youngstown, Ohio, didn't want to hear about race from a black man who went to Harvard and his black wife who went to Princeton.
He's probably right. But what Scarborough failed to mention is that same black man came from a single-parent home where the mom had to go on welfare just to feed her family. That same black woman lived in a two-bedroom home and saw her parents bust their butts to make ends meet, and scrape together every penny to send their children to the nation's finest schools.
Isn't that the dream of every white, blue-collar parent, and every black, blue-collar parent? So why should such success be seen as anger towards someone else?
When we sit down, break bread together and truly listen and learn from one another, our world view changes.
For the last few months I've seen that experience up close and personal at my church in Chicago, Illinois.
The Rev. James Meeks, founder and senior pastor of Salem Baptist Church, a predominantly black congregation, has been engaged in worship with another predominantly white mega-church, Willow Creek, led by its founder and senior pastor, Bill Hybels.
The pastors of Illinois' two largest churches have been engaged in the swapping of youth members and choirs, have preached at each other's church, and have made it their mission to break down the racial and economic walls that exist between Christians.
It has been rocky at times. Watching the faces of African Americans at a Willow Creek worship service, it is clear they find it a bit jarring -- from the style of preaching to the music. But the common denominator is the same: Jesus.
There is no doubt that a lot of Americans are angry and confused by Obama staying at Trinity United Church of Christ and not disowning his pastor.
Folks, that's just not what church folks do. I don't recall folks asking members of the Rev. Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson to leave their churches in droves. They knew their leaders are fallible and make mistakes. Should they be criticized for hateful and divisive comments? Absolutely. Disowned?
I would never say that.
This is an opportunity for us. Those of us in the media, as Obama said, can continue to run the same clips, but is that providing healing to America?
No.
What we can do is begin to show where communities are coming together, talking openly and honestly about their hurts, frustrations and pain. Will we get angry and upset because of the other person isn't fully getting what we are trying to say? Of course! But until we decide to look in that mirror, and confront our deep-seated fears of the other because of their race, religion and political affiliation, we'll remain a fractured nation.
The Bible says don't put new wine in old wine skins. So let's stop using the resentments and anger of the past against the people of today and the future.
So, what are YOU prepared to do?
Roland S. Martin is a nationally award-winning journalist and CNN contributor. Martin is studying to receive his master's degree in Christian communications at Louisiana Baptist University. You can read more of his columns at http://www.rolandsmartin.com/.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/03/21/roland.martin/index.html
Very well reasoned plea for sanity. :)
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Throwing the accusation of being a true racist is a heavy thing calmus. From the short time I have been here, I don't see BeachBum as being racist. He has different views from you. In reality, you are very liberal man...thats cool, it gives us a mix and different ideas to debate. Save the racist label for people that really deserve it. I think this a big mistake by some liberal minded people, just because others may not agree with ultra liberal policies or reparations or may criticize minority activists doesn't mean they don't understand or are racist. Maybe BeachBum has other posts that I haven't seen in the last couple weeks but be cautious when using the term racist. That has strong meaning and should be substantiated.
Shootfighter,
Calmus is NOT accusing Beachbum of being a racist, IMO, but of being a "devious supporter of the status quo".
A bigot or a racist has convictions in his/her beliefs (no matter how misguided they may be)
I think what Calmus is saying is that BB goes whichever way the wind blows... a go along to get along kind of guy,
and during the 1850's, slavery, and owning slaves was the status quo. No one is accusing him of racism.
If I am incorrect in my interpretation your remarks, then Calmus, please feel free to correct me.
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I'm not sure how this thread got directed towards racism (Could by Martin, has blown out agenda of support for all african americans, no matter the mistakes they make) but the main point of the article should have been religious dogma.
Not surpirised such a pity article was written by Roland Martin, who is a member of many backwards racist organizations, and who also threw the race card in the cases of Kobe, and Vick.
How he works for CNN I have no clue, but he is one of the reasons I quit watching CNN.
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Haha, haven't we been through this? Your delusions (faith in the koran) and this statement are idiotic.
Maybe it was the koran? :P
The koran promotes slavery.
I think any objective viewer would come to the same conclusions. I don't think there's a greater delusion than making a negative assumption and doing everything you can to hold on to it. Nordic, besides your incessant Islamic (delusional) hate you really aint that bad.
I really don't like talking about this anymore, hence the avoidance of the subject lately.
PS- if u wanted any serious "debate" you wouldn't use the harsh language you use. Some introspection is needed here, maybe a visit to a pscyhologist will do well ;)
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Okay, I just youtubed the debate. Never heard of either one until today.
I have to agree with Haider. Reza Aslan made an extremely compelling case for his argument, while Sam Harris appeared to be clinging to a conclusion that was very skillfullly dismantled by Reza.
ps: It's really refreshing to see a debate with childish attempts to demean, belittle, and humiliate your opponent.
It's like we've been trained to view debate as spectacles for entertainment rather than forums for enlightenment.
I agree :)
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I think any objective viewer would come to the same conclusions. I don't think there's a greater delusion than making a negative assumption and doing everything you can to hold on to it. Nordic, besides your incessant Islamic (delusional) hate you really aint that bad.
I really don't like talking about this anymore, hence the avoidance of the subject lately.
PS- if u wanted any serious "debate" you wouldn't use the harsh language you use. Some introspection is needed here, maybe a visit to a pscyhologist will do well ;)
Hmm, OK brother. Delusional hate? Interesting and false :-*
I'm not criticising Reza's intelligence, he plays his role well, it's just that Sam Harris clearly didn't get owned.
Oh, and seriously, does the koran promote slavery? ;)
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No actually it was Christianity bro, in a round about way
See we had something in the 15th century called 'protestant work ethic" and the composer of "Amazing Grace" our good old boy John Newton, was indeed a slave trader, slaves were not seen as people mind you, and they were assets that England was being allowed to take because the African kings of Medullow (sp) and Sierra Leone were being bribed.
Later on it was a spread of Calvinsism.
On a side note anyone that teaches Middle Eastern religion and is not a middle eastern kinda can't back it up, because some stuff the books don't and won teach
Religion was really an afterthought. "Slaves were not seen as people" because of racism, not religion. Religion was used by some to try and justify racism.
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Hmm, OK brother. Delusional hate? Interesting and false :-*
I'm not criticising Reza's intelligence, he plays his role well, it's just that Sam Harris clearly didn't get owned.
Oh, and seriously, does the koran promote slavery? ;)
And I'm not praising his "intelligence" or anything, merely the fact that sam's ignorance about the subject was exposed when his presumptive conclusions were taken apart. The "owning" part occurs when he insists upon his false conclusions even after being clearly taken apart; if not delusional, i would call him biased and dishonest in this case.
If you're serious about understanding the Qur'an, read it and understand it as a whole. Otherwise understand that you're jsut spouting off bullshit that you learned second hand. Good luck :)
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Religion was really an afterthought. "Slaves were not seen as people" because of racism, not religion. Religion was used by some to try and justify racism.
No it dealt with colonialism, not racism so much. They were seen as commodities, and the African kings that sold them saw people as commodities as well, who he himself was black. Selling off people was seen to the tribe kings as selling off a portion of the land.
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If you're serious about understanding the Qur'an, read it and understand it as a whole. Otherwise understand that you're jsut spouting off bullshit that you learned second hand. Good luck :)
I have but you will continue to deny that fact, just like you deny the fact that the koran condones and even promotes slavery.
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Religion was really an afterthought. "Slaves were not seen as people" because of racism, not religion. Religion was used by some to try and justify racism.
The Bible was used by MANY to justify slavery.
And Why Not?
Then, as now, you've got people who somehow think that a book made up of a hodgepodge of writings by a bunch of anonymous men is somehow the inerrant word of god.
However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)
If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)
When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)
Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)
The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given." (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)
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I have but you will continue to deny that fact, just like you deny the fact that the koran condones and even promotes slavery.
stop bullshittin me. seriousl, u're telling me u've read the quran in its entierty w/ explanation and a sincere desire to understand it? ::)
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No it dealt with colonialism, not racism so much. They were seen as commodities, and the African kings that sold them saw people as commodities as well, who he himself was black. Selling off people was seen to the tribe kings as selling off a portion of the land.
I disagree. The reason they viewed slaves as less than human and as "commodities" was they viewed Africans as inferior. That view was grounded on racism, not religion. You should check this book out: "Lies My Teacher Told Me." Really puts the slavery/racism issue in its proper context.
http://www.amazon.com/Lies-My-Teacher-Told-Everything/dp/1595583262/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1206294542&sr=1-1
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I disagree. The reason they viewed slaves as less than human and as "commodities" was they viewed Africans as inferior. That view was grounded on racism, not religion. You should check this book out: "Lies My Teacher Told Me." Really puts the slavery/racism issue in its proper context.
http://www.amazon.com/Lies-My-Teacher-Told-Everything/dp/1595583262/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1206294542&sr=1-1
It's not hard to be racist when your God tells you it's OK and even in some perverse way your God given right
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stop bullshittin me. seriousl, u're telling me u've read the quran in its entierty w/ explanation and a sincere desire to understand it? ::)
Know thy enemy comrade.
Does the koran condone and even promote slavery?
I'm not the one in denial here.
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I agree :)
{blush} Oooops, despite my OCD, and anal retentiveness I'm still making stupid typos
I meant to say: "It's really refreshing to see a debate withOUT childish attempts to demean, belittle, and humiliate your opponent. It's like we've been trained to view debate as spectacles for entertainment rather than forums for enlightenment."
I urge everyone to watch that debate, ...even Nordic. It might even do him some good. ;)
Part One
Part Two
Part Three
Part Four
Part Five
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Bum,
Here's instructions from that loving and compassionate god giving his guidelines for selling your daughter into slavery.
Where's the RACISM here?
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)
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Know thy enemy comrade.
Does the koran condone and even promote slavery?
I'm not the one in denial here.
hahaahaha, #1 you assume who, or what the enemy is.
#2 You try to learn about your "enermy" from a biased perspective, and collect material that will reinforce this view.
#3 You come to conclusions based on assumption #1 ;D
I'm not denying/accepting anything. I'm just saying that you're not in any position to comment on something you clearly have no understading of. There is no point in arguing about it cuz it won't lead anywhere.
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{blush} Oooops, despite my OCD, and anal retentiveness I'm still making stupid typos
I meant to say: "It's really refreshing to see a debate withOUT childish attempts to demean, belittle, and humiliate your opponent. It's like we've been trained to view debate as spectacles for entertainment rather than forums for enlightenment."
yeah, i understood.
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hahaahaha, #1 you assume who, or what the enemy is.
#2 You try to learn about your "enermy" from a biased perspective, and collect material that will reinforce this view.
#3 You come to conclusions based on assumption #1 ;D
I'm not denying/accepting anything. I'm just saying that you're not in any position to comment on something you clearly have no understading of. There is no point in arguing about it cuz it won't lead anywhere.
PS- if i remember right, these are the sme points that Reza makes.
triple post meltdown.
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It's not hard to be racist when your God tells you it's OK and even in some perverse way your God given right
Racism is an unatural state, ...it was injected into society in order to perpetuate the institution of slavery,
and religion was interpreted to foster and support that end.
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Bum,
Here's instructions from that loving and compassionate god his guidelines for selling your daughter into slavery.
Where's the RACISM here?
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)
How are you able to quote the Bible so frequently and extensively when you're an atheist who hates religion, never debates religion, and thinks "fundamentalists" are mentally ill?
In any event, these are not the portions of the Bible some used to justify slavery, so your citations of these verses are completely irrelevant. There were some who argued the mark of Cain was black skin, that one of Noah's disgraced sons was black, and/or that the races were created during the Tower of Babel incident. Those were the primary passages used by some to try and justify their racism.
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hahaahaha, #1 you assume who, or what the enemy is.
#2 You try to learn about your "enermy" from a biased perspective, and collect material that will reinforce this view.
#3 You come to conclusions based on assumption #1 ;D
I'm not denying/accepting anything. I'm just saying that you're not in any position to comment on something you clearly have no understading of. There is no point in arguing about it cuz it won't lead anywhere.
I'm not the one assuming things. An enemy is one who segregates and has an air of superiority above others, dhimmitude and islamic supremacism fill these roles, how can an ideology that segregates not be an enemy of humanity?
The koran undoubtedly condones slavery. It's not a discussion, the infallible word of god condones and even promotes slavery - fact.
Keep on denying.
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How are you able to quote the Bible so frequently and extensively when you're an atheist who hates religion, never debates religion, and thinks "fundamentalists" are mentally ill?
In any event, these are not the portions of the Bible some used to justify slavery, so your citations of these verses are completely irrelevant. There were some who argued the mark of Cain was black skin, that one of Noah's disgraced sons was black, and/or that the races were created during the Tower of Babel incident. Those were the primary passages used by some to try and justify their racism.
So you're saying the sections of the bible that give clear and explicit instructions on how to treat your slaves were NOT the ones used to justify slavery but other sections which are oddly more ambiguous were used to justify racism and I guess by extension slavery.
Ok. If you say so.
Either way - the conclusion is still the same.
The bible was used to justify slavery
BTW - I've never said I was an athiest. That's something that you've attributed to me.
I rarely debate religion because I don't really care. People can believe whatever nonsense they want
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I'm not the one assuming things. An enemy is one who segregates and has an air of superiority above others, dhimmitude and islamic supremacism fill these roles, how can an ideology that segregates not be an enemy of humanity?
The koran undoubtedly condones slavery. It's not a discussion, the infallible word of god condones and even promotes slavery - fact.
Keep on denying.
You're assuming the enemy is Islam itself (it's deteriorated manifestations are another matter), meanwhile ignoring evidence to the contrary- the contemporary political climates for example.
Then you dig up this shit which reinforces your presumptions, anything else is ignored.
Until you realise this, there is no point in discussion.
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You're assuming the enemy is Islam itself (it's deteriorated manifestations are another matter), meanwhile ignoring evidence to the contrary- the contemporary political climates for example.
Then you dig up this shit which reinforces your presumptions, anything else is ignored.
Until you realise this, there is no point in discussion.
No the enemy is the koran and anything that represents it, be it apologism or islam.
There is no evidence denying slavery in the koran or its ideological nature. Bounty and slavery is mentioned in the koran no doubt, not in the man made hadiths, no, in the copy of the mother of books: the koran.
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No the enemy is the koran and anything that represents it, be it apologism or islam.
There is no evidence denying slavery in the koran or its ideological nature. Bounty and slavery is mentioned in the koran no doubt, not in the man made hadiths, no, in the copy of the mother of books: the koran.
But how can you know this if you haven't truly tried to understand the Qur'an? :-\
Your approach is totally wrong, which prevents you from learning anything of real substance.
Fuck the antagonism, just learn. Don't bring your emotions and your prejudices into it.
But that takes the sensationalism out of it, which would make your quest very boring. Cuz you really don't give a shit about learning it ;D
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But how can you know this if you haven't truly tried to understand the Qur'an? :-\
Your approach is totally wrong, which prevents you from learning anything of real substance.
Fuck the antagonism, just learn. Don't bring your emotions and your prejudices into it.
But that takes the sensationalism out of it, which would make your quest very boring. Cuz you really don't give a shit about learning it ;D
Once again making assumptions on the premise that I haven't done something. The premise existing because of your own bias and the fact that you believe your interpretation to be true and anything I say to be false.
All this is because you're a muslim who believes no bad of the koran (you mustn't to be considered a muslim) resulting in any criticism from anyone to be false and on incorrect bias premises.
Mentioning emotions and prejudices is just ironic now isn't it?
Who's the one denying the fact that the koran condones and even promotes slavery?
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You're stirring up hate here too? Man! You're a 24/7 hata!
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You're stirring up hate here too? Man! You're a 24/7 hata!
Yes I protect my position.
How are you brother? Having a nice day?
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Once again making assumptions on the premise that I haven't done something. The premise existing because of your own bias and the fact that you believe your interpretation to be true and anything I say to be false.
All this is because you're a muslim who believes no bad of the koran (you mustn't to be considered a muslim) resulting in any criticism from anyone to be false and on incorrect bias premises.
Mentioning emotions and prejudices is just ironic now isn't it?
Who's the one denying the fact that the koran condones and even promotes slavery?
I'm saying you have a twisted interpretation of the Qur'an based on your prejudice and assumptions. haha, no its not even an interpretation, as you have never read it yourself, only second hand nonsense that you read.
Until you're ready to be honest with yourself, about your own motives and biases, why even fucking bother arguing with someone else? And why should I waste my time arguing with you? ;)
If I didnt think higher of you I'd jsut tell you to fuck off and remain in your misery forever. I will comment no further in this thread.
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I'm saying you have a twisted interpretation of the Qur'an based on your prejudice and assumptions. haha, no its not even an interpretation, as you have never read it yourself, only second hand nonsense that you read.
Until you're ready to be honest with yourself, about your own motives and biases, why even fucking bother arguing with someone else? And why should I waste my time arguing with you? ;)
If I didnt think higher of you I'd jsut tell you to fuck off and remain in your misery forever. I will comment no further in this thread.
Wow, what an idiot you are. Someone has an opposing view as you and whatever they say becomes a lie, none-true or bias (ignoring all evidence of your own bias). Here's a statement you'll like: you're just like your false prophet muhammad, except there's no Quraysh tribe for you to slaughter as your prophet did.
Hard to have an interpretation of a book which sells itself as the infallible word of god and contains statements of recursion stating it must be believed in its entirety for you to pass gods judgement.
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I disagree. The reason they viewed slaves as less than human and as "commodities" was they viewed Africans as inferior. That view was grounded on racism, not religion. You should check this book out: "Lies My Teacher Told Me." Really puts the slavery/racism issue in its proper context.
http://www.amazon.com/Lies-My-Teacher-Told-Everything/dp/1595583262/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1206294542&sr=1-1
Hmm not a good source, hardly a historian perspective or grasp of the subject
True they did view them as "African savages" everyone did mainly the enlightenment thinkers when Britain was setting up NGOs people such as David Livingston would embark to help them and missionaries would get chopped up and eaten.
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Hmm not a good source, hardly a historian perspective or grasp of the subject
True they did view them as "African savages" everyone did mainly the enlightenment thinkers when Britain was setting up NGOs people such as David Livingston would embark to help them and missionaries would get chopped up and eaten.
It's actually an excellent source. Well written and well researched. You should check it out. The Japanese aren't the only ones who whitewash their history books.
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It's actually an excellent source. Well written and well researched. You should check it out. The Japanese aren't the only ones who whitewash their history books. Beach Bum isn't the only one who has whitewashed his head by thumping it with the Bible too many times, but hey, that's what university professors do.