Atheistic Horseman of the Apocalypse Sam Harris slams Obama!

[youandme]

I'm not sure how this thread got directed towards racism (Could by Martin, has blown out agenda of support for all african americans, no matter the mistakes they make) but the main point of the article should have been religious dogma.

Not surpirised such a pity article was written by Roland Martin, who is a member of many backwards racist organizations, and who also threw the race card in the cases of Kobe, and Vick.

How he works for CNN I have no clue, but he is one of the reasons I quit watching CNN.

[haider]

Haha, haven't we been through this? Your delusions (faith in the koran) and this statement are idiotic.

Maybe it was the koran?

The koran promotes slavery.

I think any objective viewer would come to the same conclusions. I don't think there's a greater delusion than making a negative assumption and doing everything you can to hold on to it. Nordic, besides your incessant Islamic (delusional) hate you really aint that bad.

I really don't like talking about this anymore, hence the avoidance of the subject lately.

PS- if u wanted any serious "debate" you wouldn't use the harsh language you use. Some introspection is needed here, maybe a visit to a pscyhologist will do well 

[haider]

Okay, I just youtubed the debate. Never heard of either one until today.

I have to agree with Haider. Reza Aslan made an extremely compelling case for his argument, while Sam Harris appeared to be clinging to a conclusion that was very skillfullly dismantled by Reza.

ps: It's really refreshing to see a debate with childish attempts to demean, belittle, and humiliate your opponent.
It's like we've been trained to view debate as spectacles for entertainment rather than forums for enlightenment.

I agree 

[Nordic Superman]

I think any objective viewer would come to the same conclusions. I don't think there's a greater delusion than making a negative assumption and doing everything you can to hold on to it. Nordic, besides your incessant Islamic (delusional) hate you really aint that bad.

I really don't like talking about this anymore, hence the avoidance of the subject lately.

PS- if u wanted any serious "debate" you wouldn't use the harsh language you use. Some introspection is needed here, maybe a visit to a pscyhologist will do well 

Hmm, OK brother. Delusional hate? Interesting and false

I'm not criticising Reza's intelligence, he plays his role well, it's just that Sam Harris clearly didn't get owned.

Oh, and seriously, does the koran promote slavery?

[Dos Equis]

No actually it was Christianity bro, in a round about way

See we had something in the 15th century called 'protestant work ethic" and the composer of "Amazing Grace" our good old boy John Newton, was indeed a slave trader, slaves were not seen as people mind you, and they were assets that England was being allowed to take because the African kings of Medullow (sp) and Sierra Leone were being bribed.
Later on it was a spread of Calvinsism.


On a side note anyone that teaches Middle Eastern religion and is not a middle eastern kinda can't back it up, because some stuff the books don't and won teach

Religion was really an afterthought.  "Slaves were not seen as people" because of racism, not religion.  Religion was used by some to try and justify racism. 

[haider]

Hmm, OK brother. Delusional hate? Interesting and false

I'm not criticising Reza's intelligence, he plays his role well, it's just that Sam Harris clearly didn't get owned.

Oh, and seriously, does the koran promote slavery?

And I'm not praising his "intelligence" or anything, merely the fact that sam's ignorance about the subject was exposed when his presumptive conclusions were taken apart. The "owning" part occurs when he insists upon his false conclusions even after being clearly taken apart; if not delusional, i would call him biased and dishonest in this case.

If you're serious about understanding the Qur'an, read it and understand it as a whole. Otherwise understand that you're jsut spouting off bullshit that you learned second hand. Good luck 

[youandme]

Religion was really an afterthought.  "Slaves were not seen as people" because of racism, not religion.  Religion was used by some to try and justify racism. 

No it dealt with colonialism, not racism so much. They were seen as commodities, and the African kings that sold them saw people as commodities as well, who he himself was black. Selling off people was seen to the tribe kings as selling off a portion of the land.

[Nordic Superman]

If you're serious about understanding the Qur'an, read it and understand it as a whole. Otherwise understand that you're jsut spouting off bullshit that you learned second hand. Good luck 

I have but you will continue to deny that fact, just like you deny the fact that the koran condones and even promotes slavery.

[Straw Man]

Religion was really an afterthought.  "Slaves were not seen as people" because of racism, not religion.  Religion was used by some to try and justify racism. 

The Bible was used by MANY to justify slavery.

And Why Not? 

Then, as now, you've got people who somehow think that a book made up of a hodgepodge of writings by a bunch of anonymous men is somehow the inerrant word of god.




  However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you.  You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land.  You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance.  You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years.  Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom.  If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year.  But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him.  If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master.  But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children.  I would rather not go free.'  If he does this, his master must present him before God.  Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl.  After that, the slave will belong to his master forever.  (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are.  If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again.  But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her.  And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter.  If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife.  If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment.  (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

  When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished.  If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear.  Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

 
    Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed.  If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful.  You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts.  Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them.  (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)
 
The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it.  "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly.  Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given."  (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)

[haider]

I have but you will continue to deny that fact, just like you deny the fact that the koran condones and even promotes slavery.

stop bullshittin me. seriousl, u're telling me u've read the quran in its entierty w/ explanation and a sincere desire to understand it? 

[Dos Equis]

No it dealt with colonialism, not racism so much. They were seen as commodities, and the African kings that sold them saw people as commodities as well, who he himself was black. Selling off people was seen to the tribe kings as selling off a portion of the land.

I disagree.  The reason they viewed slaves as less than human and as "commodities" was they viewed Africans as inferior.  That view was grounded on racism, not religion.  You should check this book out:  "Lies My Teacher Told Me."  Really puts the slavery/racism issue in its proper context.  

http://www.amazon.com/Lies-My-Teacher-Told-Everything/dp/1595583262/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1206294542&sr=1-1

[Straw Man]

I disagree.  The reason they viewed slaves as less than human and as "commodities" was they viewed Africans as inferior.  That view was grounded on racism, not religion.  You should check this book out:  "Lies My Teacher Told Me."  Really puts the slavery/racism issue in its proper context.  

http://www.amazon.com/Lies-My-Teacher-Told-Everything/dp/1595583262/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1206294542&sr=1-1

It's not hard to be racist when your God tells you it's OK and even in some perverse way your God given right

[Nordic Superman]

stop bullshittin me. seriousl, u're telling me u've read the quran in its entierty w/ explanation and a sincere desire to understand it? 

Know thy enemy comrade.

Does the koran condone and even promote slavery?

I'm not the one in denial here.

[24KT]

I agree 

{blush}  Oooops, despite my OCD, and anal retentiveness I'm still making stupid typos

I meant to say: "It's really refreshing to see a debate withOUT childish attempts to demean, belittle, and humiliate your opponent. It's like we've been trained to view debate as spectacles for entertainment rather than forums for enlightenment."

I urge everyone to watch that debate, ...even Nordic. It might even do him some good.  

Part One

Part Two

Part Three

Part Four

Part Five

[Straw Man]

Bum,

Here's instructions from that loving and compassionate god giving his guidelines for selling your daughter into slavery.  

Where's the RACISM here?

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are.  If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again.  But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her.  And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter.  If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife.  If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment.  (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

[haider]

Know thy enemy comrade.

Does the koran condone and even promote slavery?

I'm not the one in denial here.

hahaahaha, #1 you assume who, or what the enemy is.

#2 You try to learn about your "enermy" from a biased perspective, and collect material that will reinforce this view.
#3 You come to conclusions based on assumption #1

I'm not denying/accepting anything. I'm just saying that you're not in any position to comment on something you clearly have no understading of. There is no point in arguing about it cuz it won't lead anywhere.

[haider]

{blush}  Oooops, despite my OCD, and anal retentiveness I'm still making stupid typos

I meant to say: "It's really refreshing to see a debate withOUT childish attempts to demean, belittle, and humiliate your opponent. It's like we've been trained to view debate as spectacles for entertainment rather than forums for enlightenment."

yeah, i understood.

[haider]

hahaahaha, #1 you assume who, or what the enemy is.

#2 You try to learn about your "enermy" from a biased perspective, and collect material that will reinforce this view.
#3 You come to conclusions based on assumption #1

I'm not denying/accepting anything. I'm just saying that you're not in any position to comment on something you clearly have no understading of. There is no point in arguing about it cuz it won't lead anywhere.

PS- if i remember right, these are the sme points that Reza makes.

triple post meltdown.

[24KT]

It's not hard to be racist when your God tells you it's OK and even in some perverse way your God given right

Racism is an unatural state, ...it was injected into society in order to perpetuate the institution of slavery,
and religion was interpreted to foster and support that end.

[Dos Equis]

Bum,

Here's instructions from that loving and compassionate god his guidelines for selling your daughter into slavery.  

Where's the RACISM here?

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are.  If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again.  But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her.  And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter.  If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife.  If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment.  (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

How are you able to quote the Bible so frequently and extensively when you're an atheist who hates religion, never debates religion, and thinks "fundamentalists" are mentally ill?

In any event, these are not the portions of the Bible some used to justify slavery, so your citations of these verses are completely irrelevant.  There were some who argued the mark of Cain was black skin, that one of Noah's disgraced sons was black, and/or that the races were created during the Tower of Babel incident.  Those were the primary passages used by some to try and justify their racism.  

[Nordic Superman]

hahaahaha, #1 you assume who, or what the enemy is.

#2 You try to learn about your "enermy" from a biased perspective, and collect material that will reinforce this view.
#3 You come to conclusions based on assumption #1

I'm not denying/accepting anything. I'm just saying that you're not in any position to comment on something you clearly have no understading of. There is no point in arguing about it cuz it won't lead anywhere.

I'm not the one assuming things. An enemy is one who segregates and has an air of superiority above others, dhimmitude and islamic supremacism fill these roles, how can an ideology that segregates not be an enemy of humanity?

The koran undoubtedly condones slavery. It's not a discussion, the infallible word of god condones and even promotes slavery - fact.

Keep on denying.

[Straw Man]

How are you able to quote the Bible so frequently and extensively when you're an atheist who hates religion, never debates religion, and thinks "fundamentalists" are mentally ill?

In any event, these are not the portions of the Bible some used to justify slavery, so your citations of these verses are completely irrelevant.  There were some who argued the mark of Cain was black skin, that one of Noah's disgraced sons was black, and/or that the races were created during the Tower of Babel incident.  Those were the primary passages used by some to try and justify their racism.  

So you're saying the sections of the bible that give clear and explicit instructions on how to treat your slaves were NOT the ones used to justify slavery but other sections which are oddly more ambiguous were used to justify racism and I guess by extension slavery.

Ok.   If you say so.  

Either way - the conclusion is still the same.

The bible was used to justify slavery

BTW - I've never said I was an athiest.  That's something that you've attributed to me.

I rarely debate religion because I don't really care.   People can believe whatever nonsense they want

[haider]

I'm not the one assuming things. An enemy is one who segregates and has an air of superiority above others, dhimmitude and islamic supremacism fill these roles, how can an ideology that segregates not be an enemy of humanity?

The koran undoubtedly condones slavery. It's not a discussion, the infallible word of god condones and even promotes slavery - fact.

Keep on denying.

You're assuming the enemy is Islam itself (it's deteriorated manifestations are another matter), meanwhile ignoring evidence to the contrary- the contemporary political climates for example.

Then you dig up this shit which reinforces your presumptions, anything else is ignored.

Until you realise this, there is no point in discussion.

[Nordic Superman]

You're assuming the enemy is Islam itself (it's deteriorated manifestations are another matter), meanwhile ignoring evidence to the contrary- the contemporary political climates for example.

Then you dig up this shit which reinforces your presumptions, anything else is ignored.

Until you realise this, there is no point in discussion.

No the enemy is the koran and anything that represents it, be it apologism or islam.

There is no evidence denying slavery in the koran or its ideological nature. Bounty and slavery is mentioned in the koran no doubt, not in the man made hadiths, no, in the copy of the mother of books: the koran.

[haider]

No the enemy is the koran and anything that represents it, be it apologism or islam.

There is no evidence denying slavery in the koran or its ideological nature. Bounty and slavery is mentioned in the koran no doubt, not in the man made hadiths, no, in the copy of the mother of books: the koran.

But how can you know this if you haven't truly tried to understand the Qur'an? 

Your approach is totally wrong, which prevents you from learning anything of real substance.

Fuck the antagonism, just learn. Don't bring your emotions and your prejudices into it.

But that takes the sensationalism out of it, which would make your quest very boring. Cuz you really don't give a shit about learning it