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Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: Dos Equis on March 25, 2008, 08:52:04 AM
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So now he says he didn't hear the "most offensive" comments by his pastor. ::)
Obama: Not a Crackpot Church
Monday, March 24, 2008 8:59 PM
Presidential candidate Sen. Barack Obama defended his association with the Rev. Jeremiah Wright, telling a Philadelphia radio audience Monday that "this is not a crackpot church."
Obama was interviewed by popular Philadelphia WPHT radio host Michael Smerconish last Friday. The taped interview aired on Smerconish's morning show.
Speaking via telephone, Obama said his Trinity United Church of Christ in Chicago was a mainstream religious group and reiterated claims that Wright's controversial comments were taken out of context.
"This is a pillar of the community, and if you go there on Easter, this Easter Sunday, and you sat down there in the pew, you would think this is just like any other church."
Wright has stepped down as an active pastor of the church, but Obama said he never heard any controversial comments when he was present at services.
"The ones that are most offensive are ones that I never knew about until they were reported on. . . . I don't want to suggest that somehow, the loops you have been seeing typified services all the time. But that is the danger of the YouTube era. It doesn't excuse what he said. But it does give it some perspective," he said.
Obama said Wright is a respected minister.
"Bill Clinton invited him to the White House when he was having his personal crises," he said.
Obama also commented on the Bush administration's war on terror. Obama claimed the Bush administration had helped strengthen al-Qaida by focusing resources away from terror bases in Pakistan in favor of the Iraq occupation.
He said: "That's part of the reason I've been a critic from the start of the war in Iraq. It's not that I was opposed to war, it's that I felt that we had a war that we had not finished. Al-Qaida is stronger now than at any point since 2001, and we've got to do something about it because those guys have a safe haven there and they are still planning to do Americans harm, and my job as commander in chief is to going to be to protect Americans."
http://www.newsmax.com/insidecover/obama_wright_crackpot/2008/03/24/82751.html
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I don't buy his justification and don't buy him not knowing comments like this were being said at the church. Thats just not believable...he has no choice but to deny it because it would not be popular to admit it during a presidential election. This guy was a close personal friend, spiritual advisor and political backer...you think they never talked race & politics? No way, use common sense. A guy like Wright likely can't help himself with his rants & yelling spilling over into politics criticizing the government and bringing out the angry activist within him. The question is how much should this affect your opinion of Obama and do you think this reflects some of his belief system...which would be a much more serious issue.
However, I do agree with Obama on Iraq. We should have never invaded Iraq, its been a disaster and has taken the focus off Bin Laden and al-Qaida
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So now he says he didn't hear the "most offensive" comments by his pastor. ::)
"Now"?
Do you have the original quote from Obama, where he does admit hearing the most offensive comments?
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It doesn't really matter. After 20 yrs of being friends with Wright and attending services, he would be aware of at very least a protion of it...perhaps a lot more during personal discussions. Thats not the issue anymore. The issue is do you think that has effected Obama's belief system and the way he interprets the nation and our issues of race.
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Poor judgment on his part and he claims sound judgment is important to be President.
When I first started listening to this guy he struck me as someone who was fresh and authentic - even if I disagreed with his politics.
Now he's proven he's no better than the rest of the crapbags in Washington.
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He still could have a positive effect on racial relations in America. Particularly if he can move some in the black community who are still heavily influenced by Jackson, Sharpton and people preaching like Rev Wright. For this to happen, he has to distance himself from people like this and show everyone that there is a much better way to move forward while acknowledging the wrongs of the past.
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Poor judgment on his part and he claims sound judgment is important to be President.
When I first started listening to this guy he struck me as someone who was fresh and authentic - even if I disagreed with his politics.
Now he's proven he's no better than the rest of the crapbags in Washington.
Hi w8tlftr! Welcome back!
I have to disagree with you. I think he is fresh and authentic, and does have good judgement.
I don't think he should dismiss people "like Rev Wright" or any other angry bitter American whether it be the Rev Wrights or the Dennis Duke's or anything in between. These people ARE Americans, and while their voices may not be popular, they are there. Understand them, and why they have become the way they have, because they have grievances or at least perceived grievances, and if they are not addressed, will only grow louder.
To say that he has poor judgement for listening to him is innaccurate imo. I think it shows very sound judgement. Listening to someone doesn't mean you buy into their premise, it does however enable you to understand it.
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Good points. listen and understand why but its important to separate from those patterns & ideas and show a better way, then lead by example.
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From a Political standpoint in a presidential race....... it's a fumble for sure.
You can argue what ever side or angel:
He used poor judgment or he was trying to understand person or didn't hear it or listen to it etc....
The bottom line is, this very likely could be the thing that cost him his opportunity to be president of the USA becuase the people he needs votes from to make it are the same people who will associate him with the likes of Shrapton or Jesse Jackson all becuase of this crackpot preacher he should have distanced himself from 4 years ago or as soon as he heard him make comment like that.
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Hi w8tlftr! Welcome back!
I have to disagree with you. I think he is fresh and authentic, and does have good judgement.
I don't think he should dismiss people "like Rev Wright" or any other angry bitter American whether it be the Rev Wrights or the Dennis Duke's or anything in between. These people ARE Americans, and while their voices may not be popular, they are there. Understand them, and why they have become the way they have, because they have grievances or at least perceived grievances, and if they are not addressed, will only grow louder.
To say that he has poor judgement for listening to him is innaccurate imo. I think it shows very sound judgement. Listening to someone doesn't mean you buy into their premise, it does however enable you to understand it.
Hi, Judi :)
I agree with almost everything you said.
I just think he could have handled it a lot better and should have been up front and honest about his association with Rev. Wright from the beginning.
His politics aside I really do want to like the man.
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I don't buy his justification and don't buy him not knowing comments like this were being said at the church. Thats just not believable...he has no choice but to deny it because it would not be popular to admit it during a presidential election. This guy was a close personal friend, spiritual advisor and political backer...you think they never talked race & politics? No way, use common sense. A guy like Wright likely can't help himself with his rants & yelling spilling over into politics criticizing the government and bringing out the angry activist within him. The question is how much should this affect your opinion of Obama and do you think this reflects some of his belief system...which would be a much more serious issue.
However, I do agree with Obama on Iraq. We should have never invaded Iraq, its been a disaster and has taken the focus off Bin Laden and al-Qaida
True. There is no way Wright didn't make these kinds of comments over the course of their twenty year relationship.
It really does come down to judgment.
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I see it differently, ...especially since I understand how perverse comments taken out of context can appear.
However, I believe that as a community organizer, it was incumbent upon him to be in the very community he was organizing. If you are going to take a people from point A to point B, you have to know where point A is. You cannot dismiss someone simply because their statements are distasteful to you, or sound egregious to you. There are those on here whose statements, taken out of context (and without the understanding of their reference point) have painted them as very racist. I won't name names because that will simply open their previous comments up for scrutiny & speculative debate, and that's not the point of this post. My point is, by listening to them, not always commenting, but simply listening to many of their statements, I began to piece together a picture of why they think the way they think, and come to understand their grievances are real. Their opinions may be wrong, but that in no way makes their resentments any less real. And while they sound racist, and their comments are racist, and extremely offensive due to their inability to articulate their positions more palatabley, their mounting frustrations coupled with their limited perspective, didn't allow them to see a bigger picture, one that would have shifted that issue that had become a point of bitter resentment & frustration to a more empowering place of a conundrum to be resolved. Only by listening to all voices are you able to see the bigger picture, which is by far a much more empowering place to be.
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I see it differently, ...especially since I understand how perverse comments taken out of context can appear.
However, I believe that as a community organizer, it was incumbent upon him to be in the very community he was organizing. If you are going to take a people from point A to point B, you have to know where point A is. You cannot dismiss someone simply because their statements are distasteful to you, or sound egregious to you. There are those on here whose statements, taken out of context (and without the understanding of their reference point) have painted them as very racist. I won't name names because that will simply open their previous comments up for scrutiny & speculative debate, and that's not the point of this post. My point is, by listening to them, not always commenting, but simply listening to many of their statements, I began to piece together a picture of why they think the way they think, and come to understand their grievances are real. Their opinions may be wrong, but that in no way makes their resentments any less real. And while they sound racist, and their comments are racist, and extremely offensive due to their inability to articulate their positions more palatabley, their mounting frustrations coupled with their limited perspective, didn't allow them to see a bigger picture, one that would have shifted that issue that had become a point of bitter resentment & frustration to a more empowering place of a conundrum to be resolved. Only by listening to all voices are you able to see the bigger picture, which is by far a much more empowering place to be.
Well said and I don't disagree with any of it... but... we aren't running for President of the United States he is.
Everything about that man is going to be put under a microscope. It's in his best interest to be totally up front and honest especially when people know very little about him. If he truly does want to unite America he's going about it the wrong way. Just my opinion.
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i can't wait to bump these threads in november.
Reverend Who?
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No doubt your right on your insight, jag pertaining to certain situations...but there were comments that came from Wright that were inaccurate and extremely inflammatory against the government and not up to interpretation. Among others, Wright preaching the US government created and released the AIDS virus on black Americans.
Another quote: "The government gives them the drugs, builds bigger prisons, passes a three-strike law and then wants us to sing 'God Bless America.' No, no, no, God damn America". Totally innappropriate IMO.
These teachings cannot be justified and need to be met with extreme criticism, particularly for a leader/teacher in his position with his influence on the learnings of others. We cannot excuse teachings like this because of past wrongs. Its much different than typing a personal opinion on a board open for criticism.
Its obvious Wright crosses religious boundries and gets into anti-American politics during his sermons and niave to think it only happened a few times. Why did he mix Christian sermons with critical remarks about the US involvement with the Israeli/Palestine conflict? Inappropriate venue IMO.
As Clinton said, we can choose the church we belong to. People change churches all the time based on the pastor.
I was encouraged to hear a recent poll showed a majority of both black and non-black Americans disagreed with most of Wright's publicized statements.
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It might not matter...but Obama has to get the nomination and if the Super Delegates get it in their heads that he is un electable, regardless of truth, he won't get the nod in August.
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This issue is tedious.
Sound Judgment, character, integrity...
Wonderful characteristics...all of them.
In the context of presidential politics, they are blather.
Look at the platforms, the issues.
Those other criteria are fodder for the pre-teen gossiping pundits of our liberal media.
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He still could have a positive effect on racial relations in America. Particularly if he can move some in the black community who are still heavily influenced by Jackson, Sharpton and people preaching like Rev Wright. For this to happen, he has to distance himself from people like this and show everyone that there is a much better way to move forward while acknowledging the wrongs of the past.
This is an oxymoron b/c as long as people continue to dwell on the past and i mean the distant not recent past then we cannot move forward. Those who continue to dwell and harp on slavery get the african american race in general no where. I agree it was horrible, the attrocities were inhuman, but guess what nobody alive had anything to do with that. Its somewhat of a catch 22 b/c it really needs to be forgotten and put behind us, but you dont want to forget that it ever happend.
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This issue is tedious.
Sound Judgment, character, integrity...
Wonderful characteristics...all of them.
In the context of presidential politics, they are blather.
Look at the platforms, the issues.
Those other criteria are fodder for the pre-teen gossiping pundits of our liberal media.
? You don't think "Sound Judgment, character, integrity" are important qualities for the president?
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No doubt your right on your insight, jag pertaining to certain situations...but there were comments that came from Wright that were inaccurate and extremely inflammatory against the government and not up to interpretation. Among others, Wright preaching the US government created and released the AIDS virus on black Americans.
Another quote: "The government gives them the drugs, builds bigger prisons, passes a three-strike law and then wants us to sing 'God Bless America.' No, no, no, God damn America". Totally innappropriate IMO.
These teachings cannot be justified and need to be met with extreme criticism, particularly for a leader/teacher in his position with his influence on the learnings of others. We cannot excuse teachings like this because of past wrongs. Its much different than typing a personal opinion on a board open for criticism.
Its obvious Wright crosses religious boundries and gets into anti-American politics during his sermons and niave to think it only happened a few times. Why did he mix Christian sermons with critical remarks about the US involvement with the Israeli/Palestine conflict? Inappropriate venue IMO.
As Clinton said, we can choose the church we belong to. People change churches all the time based on the pastor.
I was encouraged to hear a recent poll showed a majority of both black and non-black Americans disagreed with most of Wright's publicized statements.
Actually, if my memory serves me correctly, he didn't the gov unleashed the aids virus to kill American Blacks, ...but rather Africans. I think it was Steven Seagal who said it was to kill American Blacks, ...but I could be wrong.
I also assume the lesson he was preaching on was hypocrisy, ...or at least had something to do with clarity. A people really have to see themselves clearly, ...especially if they are heading down the wrong path I suppose. I don't know. I wasn't in the pew, ...and neither were any of us. What we have heard, are comments taken out of context. When placed in context, comments and their intent can sometimes take on a whole different meaning. As for his using the pulpit to comment on Israel/Palestine, ...I suppose it's no different from any of the other "mainstream Christian" churches that do the same. (http://www.jaguarenterprises.net/images/em/shrug.gif)
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This is an oxymoron b/c as long as people continue to dwell on the past and i mean the distant not recent past then we cannot move forward. Those who continue to dwell and harp on slavery get the african american race in general no where. I agree it was horrible, the attrocities were inhuman, but guess what nobody alive had anything to do with that. Its somewhat of a catch 22 b/c it really needs to be forgotten and put behind us, but you dont want to forget that it ever happend.
Acknowledging something is quite different from harping on something. In the short clips I saw, there was no mention whatsoever of slavery (that I can remember anyway). What was mentioned were some of the by-products of it. Something that leaves a profound legacy with lasting effects that cannot simply be forgotten. That's like saying doctors discover cancer in your penis. It's been there and has been allowed to manifest sooo long (because being American, you didn't have proper health coverage that would have enabled you to catch it earlier) {wink} ...been there so long, that there are only 2 options; amputate it, ...or wait another week and let it fall off all by itself. ;D Anyway, one of those options has been exercised, and 20 yrs later, you're cancer free. Wonderful. Do you think you wouldn't still be feeling the effects or the legacy the cancer left behind? Telling you to just forget you ever had cancer because there's no longer a cancer cell in your body is pretty ridiculous, ...especially when you're not in a position to bang your wife like a barn door in a rain storm (I know you like it rough) ;) Tell me you wouldn't feel somewhat bitter, or resentful, ...and perhaps more than a little pissed off if people told you to shut up and forget about it, when you try to educate young kids about the symptoms of penile cancer, so that they perhaps could get to a doctor in time if need be?
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In the context of presidential politics, they are blather.
Look at the platforms, the issues.
Your right.
If Obama can't hear the words coming out of his preachers mouth for 22 years, how in the hell is he going to hear or even attempt to listen to the words coming out of the people's mouths.
Haha. I'm guessing as a result of his faulty hearing his platform, and issues will flip flop since he will only catch what he wants to hear.
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Acknowledging something is quite different from harping on something. In the short clips I saw, there was no mention whatsoever of slavery (that I can remember anyway). What was mentioned were some of the by-products of it. Something that leaves a profound legacy with lasting effects that cannot simply be forgotten. That's like saying doctors discover cancer in your penis. It's been there and has been allowed to manifest sooo long (because being American, you didn't have proper health coverage that would have enabled you to catch it earlier) {wink} ...been there so long, that there are only 2 options; amputate it, ...or wait another week and let it fall off all by itself. ;D Anyway, one of those options has been exercised, and 20 yrs later, you're cancer free. Wonderful. Do you think you wouldn't still be feeling the effects or the legacy the cancer left behind? Telling you to just forget you ever had cancer because there's no longer a cancer cell in your body is pretty ridiculous, ...especially when you're not in a position to bang your wife like a barn door in a rain storm (I know you like it rough) ;) Tell me you wouldn't feel somewhat bitter, or resentful, ...and perhaps more than a little pissed off if people told you to shut up and forget about it, when you try to educate young kids about the symptoms of penile cancer, so that they perhaps could get to a doctor in time if need be?
LOL :-[ you made me blush...I dont think this is the best analogy but i think you were going for something here. But there are unfortunately many people who still harp on this, not on a daily basis but slavery is what it generally always boils down to. I mean for Gods sake there were people not to long ago who were ordered by courts to pay reperations for slavery, Come the fvck on. The people alive today had no bearing on that situation what so ever. Like I said its not that we need to forget about it and education is what needs to be done. It is the blaming of society for individual short comings that needs to stop. The problem is that society cant say anything or the people who do will be labeled as rascist. I guess what my point was that the excuses need to stop and that individual accountablity as well as the accountability of the african american community should be called into action. You dont get good grades at school, study more - you keep getting arrested, stop breaking the law. I cant tell you how many times ive heard african american activist say that the system is set up for AA youths to fail. This is horse crap, Guess what an african american high schooler with a 3.5 gpa has a much greater chance of getting into a specific college than an caucasian american high schooler with the same gpa. The system is the same for everyone, quit complaining about your misfortunes and do something to change it...sorry i know i got on a soap box here
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Its not an easy subject and the vast majority people, regardless of race, feel regret and horror when speaking of slavery, there is zero justification....but we must keep in mind that slavery was practiced in nearly every nation at one time and occured to many different people at some point in history. As jag said, in America, there was post slavery racism which contributed to our continued racial divides. Many families didn't come to the US until post WW1 or WW2 so they are not to blame for America's slavery and it is unfair to do so. Until the past couple decades, there has been institutional racism in America and that plain sucks, but white and black people both came together to fight the injustices so the majority of Americans made our stand.
The point is that you must overcome. A portion of the black community is not doing this. We need to be able to discuss this without feeling guilt or being labeled as as racist discussion. More black leaders who do not preach like Rev Wright are also needed. The paths to success and pride are colorless.
England and Canada do not have issues like we do, partly because there isn't the same continued culture of resentment, entitlement and anger in some of the black community. I admire those who have moved on.
Thats why I said acknowledge this history but choose not to dwell or continue a pattern of cultural self-repression.
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Its not an easy subject and the vast majority people, regardless of race, feel regret and horror when speaking of slavery, there is zero justification....but we must keep in mind that slavery was practiced in nearly every nation at one time and occured to many different people at some point in history. As jag said, in America, there was post slavery racism which contributed to our continued racial divides. Many families didn't come to the US until post WW1 or WW2 so they are not to blame for America's slavery and it is unfair to do so. Until the past couple decades, there has been institutional racism in America and that plain sucks, but white and black people both came together to fight the injustices so the majority of Americans made our stand.
The point is that you must overcome. A portion of the black community is not doing this. We need to be able to discuss this without feeling guilt or being labeled as as racist discussion. More black leaders who do not preach like Rev Wright are also needed. The paths to success and pride are colorless.
England and Canada do not have issues like we do, partly because there isn't the same continued culture of resentment, entitlement and anger in some of the black community. I admire those who have moved on.
Thats why I said acknowledge this history but choose not to dwell or continue a pattern of cultural self-repression.
You also have to factor in Jim Crow, which didn't end until the 1960s (at least on paper). We had an entire race that was pretty much illiterate until the 1860s and then laws and practices that oppressed them from the 1860s until the 1960s. We are one generation removed from Jim Crow.
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True, and thats where I acknowledge and have some understanding of the struggle. All people should understand the history of racism in America. It should also make sucessful black families even more proud. To acheive against greater odds gives pride, belief and self-respect. Pride, love and family are key elements in success.
I think a key point to bring people closer is that together, as Americans, we voted for civil rights for equality. Thats why many are not in favor of Affirmative Action (or federally forced redistribution of wealth), that policy in itself is based on race and invokes bad feelings again on both sides. I am for funding special programs and opportunities to low income students and youth, cause thats where change can really happen.
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True, and thats where I acknowledge and have some understanding of the struggle. All people should understand the history of racism in America. It should also make sucessful black families even more proud. To acheive against greater odds gives pride, belief and self-respect. Pride, love and family are key elements in success.
I think a key point to bring people closer is that together, as Americans, we voted for civil rights for equality. Thats why many are not in favor of Affirmative Action (or federally forced redistribution of wealth), that policy in itself is based on race and invokes bad feelings again on both sides. I am for funding special programs and opportunities to low income students and youth, cause thats where change can really happen.
I agree.
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True, and thats where I acknowledge and have some understanding of the struggle. All people should understand the history of racism in America. It should also make sucessful black families even more proud. To acheive against greater odds gives pride, belief and self-respect. Pride, love and family are key elements in success.
I think a key point to bring people closer is that together, as Americans, we voted for civil rights for equality. Thats why many are not in favor of Affirmative Action (or federally forced redistribution of wealth), that policy in itself is based on race and invokes bad feelings again on both sides. I am for funding special programs and opportunities to low income students and youth, cause thats where change can really happen.
I would have said agreed with you on the last part, until I saw that it rarely helps. There is no incentive, most of the people just keep using the system with no repercussions as to "you must complete and pass x amt of hours in class or work x amt of hours at a job" they just collect checks, and take out more student loans, more personal loans.
All in all in the end it saves more money really, cause if you were to put quotas then they would not get filled, and all hell would break loose.
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LOL :-[ you made me blush...I dont think this is the best analogy but i think you were going for something here.
Ya ...your attention! I think my analogy got yours. :D
But there are unfortunately many people who still harp on this, not on a daily basis but slavery is what it generally always boils down to.
But as long as people choose to dismiss it, or look away from it because it makes them uncomfortable, the roots of the problems can never be excised. It's not that Obama, or anyone else wants to harp on slavery, ...just the opposite, ...however, without an understanding of your past, you will not know how you got to the present, and without an understanding of the present, you cannot get to the future. You will forever be running East looking for a sunset. First you must get your bearings. it's not about wanting to milk slavery, it's about creating understanding to move the country forward. Obama does that across the board, whether the topic be race relations, ...or the state of the economy. you have to know HOW you got into the mess in order to solve it, ...and you cannot get out of a situation with the thinking you used to first get you into the situation. Just have a listen to his recent economic speech as an example. He paints a chronological picture for us, giving us the timeline from the past to the present situation, along with a plan for the future.
Those who forget their past, or do not learn from it, are destined to repeat it, ...and right now, more of the same current economic trend is not something America can afford to continue to go through. Citing the past, to understand the present, empowers you to accept responsibility to more effectively take charge of the future. It is nothing new. It's a very necessary step in moving forward beyond the challenges of the present to the brighter future of tomorrow.
I mean for Gods sake there were people not to long ago who were ordered by courts to pay reperations for slavery, Come the fvck on. The people alive today had no bearing on that situation what so ever.
This is very innacurate. There have never been any reparations paid, ...nor will there ever be. Most intellegent people in the African American community realize this and have dismissed the idea of reparations (as most people know it) It would be impossible to do. Damages have been paid to the Japanese because of the attrocities committed by the US gov to them in WWII, as well some form of reparation has been paid to Jews, again stemmimng from WWII, but there is no way reparations, comparable to the damages suffered can ever be paid to African Americans. Leaders in the black community have known this for years. That is why great men and community organizers like NAACP founder Carter Woodson have always advocated African Americans should "Ask not what your country can do for you, ...ask what you can do for your country" Simply put, make the country a better place for future generations. It was such a profound call to action that John F. Kennedy decided to ask that very same question to all Americans in a speech which went down as one of the great historic speeches of your nation. Had your nation been listening when Carter Woodson said it, a lot of her issues today perhaps would not have festered, compounded, and become as chronic as they did, ...but unfortunately, the chronic problem with the children of America's former slave owners, is that they have an aversion to listening to the children of their former slaves. Much progress has been made, but much more has still to be accomplished, ...and until this issue of RACE in America is resolved, America will not, ...infact cannot move forward to her destiny of a more perfect union. The best reparations for slavery is to revitalize the school systems and provide opportunity for ALL children. But this must be a partnership with the political will from all segments of society behind it, ...because what affects one, should interest us all, ...if not for altruism, ...then at least for our own preservation. Kids with futures aren't robbing you at gunpoint. Kids with futures aren't standing on street corners slinging crack.
Like I said its not that we need to forget about it and education is what needs to be done. It is the blaming of society for individual short comings that needs to stop. The problem is that society cant say anything or the people who do will be labeled as rascist. I guess what my point was that the excuses need to stop and that individual accountablity as well as the accountability of the african american community should be called into action. You dont get good grades at school, study more - you keep getting arrested, stop breaking the law. I cant tell you how many times ive heard african american activist say that the system is set up for AA youths to fail.
But for so many years this has been the case. When you have separate schools with inferior education, how is someone supposed to get ahead in life. You may graduate with a high school diploma, but if you are still illiterate, that diploma does you no good. The schools and how they are financed, as well as the quality of education they provide, has an impact all these years later. America is still feeling the legacy she handed down to subsequent generations, and some segments of society have continuously been feeling it more than others. Accountability is important, but there is much to account for on all sides, including those who may not have had a hand in constructing the trainwreck, ...but who sat idly by and watched it happen as it didn't directly affect them.
This is horse crap, Guess what an african american high schooler with a 3.5 gpa has a much greater chance of getting into a specific college than an caucasian american high schooler with the same gpa.
The sad part is... depending on where that kid went to school his 3.5 might have equaled a 2.1 elsewhere. The system is not perfect, there are advantages and disadvantages (both real and perceived) that african americans and caucasian americans can point to. The reason for this, is that America is still a divided nation (relatively speaking). The immense advantages certain groups have held for years is so far off the scale, that something had to be implemented to at least level out the playing field somewhat. Had she not veered so far off the path, a need for Affirmative Action solutions designed to remedy the situation would not have been required. The problem is not in the program itself, but rather in the inefficient implementaion of it, and it's exploitation to further agendas on all sides. I doubt though that the caucasian son of a multi-billionaire with that same gpa would have difficulty gaining admittance, ...especially when his father & grandfather were alumni. This is also part of the priviledge enjoyed my many, but it's so hush/hush, that unless you are part of this crowd, you don't think about it, don't realize it's even happening. It's far more easy to just point the finger at Affirmative Action, or use it as a scapegoat for their own or someone else's shortcomings.
The system is the same for everyone, quit complaining about your misfortunes and do something to change it...sorry i know i got on a soap box here
A system that is the same for everyone is what Obama is trying to accomplish. A system for the people, of the people, by the people, ...not one created of by and for special interest lobby groups. When EQUAL opportunity for a good education is afforded to ALL children, you break that cycle of disenfranchisement. Many of the problems Obama has been addressing have traditionally been experienced in poorer areas, but with the past 8 years of Bush economic policy, middle class mainstream America is getting a taste of it as well. That needs to be turned around before America takes on the feel of a 3rd world country ie: Upper classes & lower classes with no middle class whatsoever. But you have to be willing to roll up your sleeves and recognize we're all in it together.
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A MOUSE TRAP STORY
A mouse looked through the crack in the wall to see the farmer and his wife open a package.
What food might this contain?'
The mouse wondered - he was devastated to discover it was a mousetrap. :o
Retreating to the farmyard, the mouse proclaimed the warning:
There is a mousetrap in the house!
There is a mousetrap in the house!!
The chicken clucked & scratched, raised her head and said,
'Mr.Mouse, I can tell this is a grave concern TO YOU, but it's of no consequence to me. I can't be bothered by it.'
The mouse turned to the pig and told him,
'There is a mousetrap in the house!
There is a mousetrap in the house!!'
The pig sympathized, but said, I'm so very sorry, Mr.Mouse, but there's nothing I can do about it but pray.
Be assured you are in my prayers.
The mouse turned to the cow and said,
'There is a mousetrap in the house!
There is a mousetrap in the house!!'
The cow said, 'Wow, Mr. Mouse. I'm sorry for you, but it's no skin off my nose.'
So, the mouse returned to the house, head down and dejected, to face the farmer's mousetrap alone.
That very night a sound was heard throughout the house –like the sound of a mousetrap catching its prey.
The farmer's wife rushed to see what was caught. In the darkness, she did not see it was a venomous snake whose tail the trap had caught.
The snake bit the farmer's wife. The farmer rushed her to the hospital, and she returned home with a fever.
Everyone knows you treat a fever with fresh chicken soup, so the farmer took his hatchet to the farmyard for the soup's main ingredient.
But his wife's sickness continued, so friends and neighbors came to sit with her around the clock.
To feed them, the farmer butchered the pig.
The farmer's wife did not get well; she died.
So many people came for her funeral, the farmer slaughtered the cow to provide enough meat for them all.
The mouse looked upon it all from his crack in the wall with great sadness.
So, the next time you hear someone is facing a problem and think it doesn't concern you, remember:
When one of us is threatened, we are all at risk.
We are all involved in this journey called life.
We must keep an eye out for one another and make an extra effort to encourage one another.
REMEMBER!!!
EACH OF US IS A VITAL THREAD IN ANOTHER PERSON'S TAPESTRY;
OUR LIVES ARE WOVEN TOGETHER FOR A REASON.
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Jag, we had a ton of education on slavery and black history in schools all taught in a critical manner. It is not ignored or forgotten and though many of our families were not here, most white kids feel shame in school when learning about this segment of our history.
Most people understand the past, they just want to move on. Other cultures and other peoples have overcome and moved on without forgetting the struggles of their ancestors. Focusing too much on the past is detrimental.
This is where some in the black community have problems IMO...they are too focused on the past instead of moving forward, as we both agree is the path for continued success. When these leaders focus on the past & entitlements, it not only sets cultural beliefs but causes backlash from non-whites that continues to keep some divides. We get plenty of education on slavery and post-slavery racism in mainstream schools.
I have seen affirmative action in graduate schools and it is an uncomfotable subject. My cousin sat on the board of admissions where black & hispanic students were accepted before asian, indian and white students with better grades and qualifications because of AA. This is fact, not speculation. He was quite uncomfortable with this. Same thing happens with funding for higher education and it causes bad feelings, particularly with lower or middle income non-black & non-latino Americans. I understand the concept, just don't agree with how it has been instituted.
I agree with you on unequal education but in speaking with some of the inner city teachers, the problem is much more complicated. They say, too many disruptive kids coming from broken families that don't want to learn and cause trouble for others. The school cannot be the parent and the educator. I believe you must offer good $ to inner city teachers (I think they have done that in some systems already) to increase quality of education but the problem will not go away unless you fix families and the kids see learning as important and useful for them...which many do not.
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Jag, we had a ton of education on slavery and black history in schools all taught in a critical manner. It is not ignored or forgotten and though many of our families were not here, most white kids feel shame in school when learning about this segment of our history.
True, but not sure why, when it was African Kings trading their own people to the British.
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Slavery was a worldwide institution. Very sad part of history but true. We must focus on the fact that we came together to end slavery 150yrs ago and passed comprehensive civil rights acts in the 60s. Sometimes it seems we get a little too much focus on this in schools. Its necessary but not to be overdone to cause continued divided feelings.
My wife's mother just retired from a nearly all black elementary school, in a poor area of town. She & her husband are one of the only white families in the neighborhood (I know they are the only white family on their street), but they have very good neighbors despite crime in other areas closeby. She comments on how uninvolved the parents are and how dysfunctional the majority of the kids are at the school. Their English is horrible, dress is poor and even at the elementary age, they don't respect the teachers. Its not the teachers fault, who try very hard, its the lack of parenting and skills that should be taught at home.
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GOODNESS gracious Jag I swear ive written papers on less than your post.
Plz next time paraphrase ;D
The simple fact of the matter is a person who does well in high school has the oppurtunity to go to college. LOL Darling ive worked since I was 13 yrs old and im still working to put myself through college to this day. The oppurtunities affored to me are extended to all student regardless of race. How many multi millionaires do you know, Im sure the same could be said about a multi millionaire black persons children as well.
I may be mistaken about the reperations but i believe that a case was ruled in favor of it and then overturned. My analogy was with all things equal so the AA kid and the CA kid were from the same high school with same qualifications meaning if the AA kid had a 2.1 so would the CA kid. Yes some schools do give better educations, but hey guess what if you live in a shitty school district MOVE!!!!!!!!. nobody forces them to live there, there are low income housing all over the place in and out of the city find one in a good school district. The system is the same for everybody its the individuals in the system, teachers, students, parents, etc....that cause the problem.
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Most people understand the past, they just want to move on. Other cultures and other peoples have overcome and moved on without forgetting the struggles of their ancestors. Focusing too much on the past is detrimental.
That's my point. Why have these other cultures been able to move forward beyond the point the US has?
It's because after the abolition of slavery, people were allowed to simply get on with things. The USA through Jim Crow, and other forms of legislative and systemic discrimination did not. It simply perpetuated the cycle, and the damage done is still being felt today.
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That's my point. Why have these other cultures been able to move forward beyond the point the US has?
It's because after the abolition of slavery, people were allowed to simply get on with things. The USA through Jim Crow, and other forms of legislative and systemic discrimination did not. It simply perpetuated the cycle, and the damage done is still being felt today.
You could say the same thing about afirmative action
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You could say the same thing about afirmative action
These other areas have affirmative action as well. I think it's all in the administration of these programs.
How can I put it gently, ...your country hasn't been the most efficient when it comes to getting things done.
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Obviously there are a multitude of factors at play. However, there are fair opportunities now for everyone. Newer immigrants have taken advantage of this and they typically do not start off in a position of wealth or influence. People with strong families, strong work ethic, hungry for success with no sense of entitlement, self-worth and pride will move forward and be successful, however thats defined for them. Others will not. Regardless of the past, this is the way it is. Be best to adapt and better oneself and those you care about.
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These other areas have affirmative action as well. I think it's all in the administration of these programs.
How can I put it gently, ...your country hasn't been the most efficient when it comes to getting things done.
Again you put it on the government, instead of on the people. Like shoot said other immigrant races have prospered under this same government, so why is it that AA community seems to be the one that stresses inequality and unequal opportunity? The opportunities are the same for everybody you either choose to take advantage of them or you dont.
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Again you put it on the government, instead of on the people. Like shoot said other immigrant races have prospered under this same government, so why is it that AA community seems to be the one that stresses inequality and unequal opportunity? The opportunities are the same for everybody you either choose to take advantage of them or you dont.
This is a delusion that people constantly spout. The opportunities are NOT the same for everybody.
Not withstanding, ...there does come a point in every person's life when they do have to simply pull themselves up by the bootstraps and do what they can. Life isn't fair or equal, but if there is a will, ...there is a way.
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This is a delusion that people constantly spout. The opportunities are NOT the same for everybody.
Not withstanding, ...there does come a point in every person's life when they do have to simply pull themselves up by the bootstraps and do what they can. Life isn't fair or equal, but if there is a will, ...there is a way.
plz give me an example of how the opportunities are not the same
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plz give me an example of how the opportunities are not the same
Texaco; where the black jelly beans stick to the bottom
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Again you put it on the government, instead of on the people. Like shoot said other immigrant races have prospered under this same government, so why is it that AA community seems to be the one that stresses inequality and unequal opportunity? The opportunities are the same for everybody you either choose to take advantage of them or you dont.
First of all, immigrants will always have the advantage over native born any day of the week because they have a different mindset. It's not about race, it's about status & mindset. Immigrants are those who are DO-ers.
That's why you will have a man like Obama with an immmigrant mentality (afforded to him by his years abroad) outperforming Cletus or Buford from the trailer park in Kentucky who opts for the path of least resistance.
It takes alot of ovaries to pack up your life and move to a foreign country where you might not even speak the language, but they do it because they have goals & dreams that fuel them. We have a saying in network marketing... "It's not the 'How', ...it's the 'WHY'". But it all starts with the willingness to take action. Immigrants take action, and will always outperform native born in any country they go to. It's just the immigrant mentality.
They plan their work, then work their plan. And they're not afraid to climb an uphill battle, they welcome it.
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A minister & member of the congregation of Obama's church (Trinity United) Speaks About their church
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Jag, we had a ton of education on slavery and black history in schools all taught in a critical manner. It is not ignored or forgotten and though many of our families were not here, most white kids feel shame in school when learning about this segment of our history.
I don't entirely agree. Our history books have traditionally been whitewashed. We have treated the issue of slavery and Jim Crow like the Japanese treat their WWII atrocities. I think there was about a page or two about it in my history book growing up. We did the same cleansing when it came to most of the bad things our country has done. Check out the book "Lies My Teacher Told Me." Quite eye opening.
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Texaco; where the black jelly beans stick to the bottom
lol i know i asked you to paraphrase but could you elaborate for me, it sounds like a glass ceiling but i would like to know the details plz ;D
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First of all, immigrants will always have the advantage over native born any day of the week because they have a different mindset. It's not about race, it's about status & mindset. Immigrants are those who are DO-ers.
That's why you will have a man like Obama with an immmigrant mentality (afforded to him by his years abroad) outperforming Cletus or Buford from the trailer park in Kentucky who opts for the path of least resistance.
It takes alot of ovaries to pack up your life and move to a foreign country where you might not even speak the language, but they do it because they have goals & dreams that fuel them. We have a saying in network marketing... "It's not the 'How', ...it's the 'WHY'". But it all starts with the willingness to take action. Immigrants take action, and will always outperform native born in any country they go to. It's just the immigrant mentality.
They plan their work, then work their plan. And they're not afraid to climb an uphill battle, they welcome it.
LOL nice touch
I completely agree, but that means that its the people not the system. we all navigate through the same system of course there are certain people who are going to do unethical things, but the system is not unethical and does not discriminate between people.
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"But it all starts with the willingness to take action. Immigrants take action, and will always outperform native born in any country they go to. It's just the immigrant mentality.
They plan their work, then work their plan. And they're not afraid to climb an uphill battle, they welcome it"
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Your exactly right jag and this is difficult (and why its not done more) but this is the mindset of advancement. Without this mindset, you do not, and in reality, should not prosper. Its the same message our schools teach...work hard, study, sacrifice and you are rewarded. Its not the gov's job or other people's job to give to those without that work ethic and mindset. Many minorities have that mindset and take advantage of the newer opportunities...and they should feel proud.
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Beach, I can appreciate a different experience. When I went to public school, we spent a lot of time on slavery and black history. There has been a lot done to change teachings. Even in February, we focused on black history month in school...well elementary and jr high at least. Then there was quite a lot devoted to civil rights in government class (high school). Its not undertaught. I imagine there are differences based on the teachers and curriculums. Then in college, we had countless discussions on these and related topics. I guess thats one reason I like debating it. (please don't quiz me, I forgot much more than I remember). :)
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Beach, I can appreciate a different experience. When I went to public school, we spent a lot of time on slavery and black history. There has been a lot done to change teachings. Even in February, we focused on black history month in school...well elementary and jr high at least. Then there was quite a lot devoted to civil rights in government class (high school). Its not undertaught. I imagine there are differences based on the teachers and curriculums. Then in college, we had countless discussions on these and related topics. I guess thats one reason I like debating it. (please don't quiz me, I forgot much more than I remember). :)
It has been a few moons since I was in high school. :) Maybe books have changed. You should check out the book I recommended. Amazing what we weren't taught in school.
I agree with you about the immigrant work ethic. Both my parents were immigrants. They had it. We have an extremely large immigrant population here and I've seen it in many of our immigrants. They bring that old Protestant Work Ethic with them.
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VOICE: Let me ask you pointedly. Do you think he,( Don Imus) should be fired?
SENATOR OBAMA: I don't think MSNBC should be carrying the kinds of hateful remarks that Imus uttered the other day and he has a track record of making those kinds of remarks. Look, I've got two daughters who are African-American, gorgeous, tall and I hope at some point are interested enough in sports that they get athletic scholarships.
VOICE: So he should be off the air, off of MSNBC and off of CBS, off the air completely in your judgment?
SENATOR OBAMA: Ultimately you guys are going to have to make that view. He would not be working for me.
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VOICE: Let me ask you pointedly. Do you think he,( Don Imus) should be fired?
SENATOR OBAMA: I don't think MSNBC should be carrying the kinds of hateful remarks that Imus uttered the other day and he has a track record of making those kinds of remarks. Look, I've got two daughters who are African-American, gorgeous, tall and I hope at some point are interested enough in sports that they get athletic scholarships.
VOICE: So he should be off the air, off of MSNBC and off of CBS, off the air completely in your judgment?
SENATOR OBAMA: Ultimately you guys are going to have to make that view. He would not be working for me.
"No, your name is Liar, 'cause you tell lies." -- Phil Weston (Will Ferrell), Kicking and Screaming
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lol i know i asked you to paraphrase but could you elaborate for me, it sounds like a glass ceiling but i would like to know the details plz ;D
Are you begging me ? I like it when men beg. :P
...but nuh-uh, no can do, ...long babbling posts are at risk of selective deletion on this board.
(http://www.jaguarenterprises.net/images/google_bart.gif)
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OK, I'm taking pity on you 'cause I realize this probably occurred while you were a guest at Club Fed.
Texaco chairman apologizes for executives
who allegedly referred to Black employees as 'N*****s' and 'Black jelly beans.' - Peter I. Bijur
The chairman of Texaco Inc. recently apologized publicly for top executives who allegedly referred to Black employees as "n*****s" and "black jelly beans" during company meetings and said he has suspended two of them who still work for the company.
At JET press time, the Rev. Jesse Jackson Sr. threatened to organize a boycott of Texaco. "Unless they have a definite plan, they're facing a major boycott," Jackson said. NAACP President Kweisi Mfume has asked the Justice Department and the FBI to investigate possible criminal or civil rights violations against Texaco.
Texaco Chairman and CEO Peter I. Bijur also confirmed that the oil company, headquartered in White Plains, NY, has received subpoenas from a federal grand jury investigating whether the executives destroyed documents on minority hiring.
"I want to offer an apology to our fellow employees who were rightly offended by these statements ... and to people throughout the world," Bijur said at a news conference in New York. He also outlined a series of steps to review company policies on discrimination and to educate workers better.
Bijur suspended the two executives who had attended the meetings and are still employed at the company - Peter Meade, assistant general manager of Texaco's fuel and marine marketing division, and J. David Keough, chief financial officer of a Texaco subsidiary, Heddington Insurance.
The two men were suspended with pay, pending the outcome of a company investigation.
Bijur also said that some retirement benefits for another executive, Richard Lundwall, and a fourth man, retired Texaco executive Robert Ulrich, had been suspended and likely would be withdrawn.
The alleged racist comments were recorded in 1994 by an executive, Richard Lundwall, who attended meetings of the company's finance department. After Lundwalls position was eliminated because of downsizing at Texaco, he turned the tapes over to a lawyer who is representing Black employees who have filed suit against Texaco for race discrimination.
Lundwall and the other White top executives at the meetings allegedly referred to Black employees as "blacks" and black jelly beans" mocked Kwanzaa and Hanukkah celebrations and discussed destroying company documents on minority hiring, according to court papers in the 1994 class-action discrimination brought on behalf of 1,500 Black Texaco workers. The $540 million lawsuit alleges that Black employees were denied promotions and advancement opportunities because of their race.
Lundwall said he taped the meetings without his colleagues' knowledge. He said he wanted to make sure the minutes he kept were accurate.
Lundwall said the subject of the meetings was "what can we do to enhance Texaco's position in minority representation at higher position grades, managers and supervisory levels."
At one meeting, Robert Ulrich, Texaco's treasurer, was allegedly heard on the tape saying: "This diversity thing, you know how Black jelly beans agree." And Lundwall allegedly responds: "That's funny. All the black jelly beans seem to be glued to the bottom of the bag."
Apparently referring to a Kwanzaa celebration of Black culture, ulrich allegedly says: "I'm still having trouble with Hanukkah. Now, we have Kwanzaa .... (Expletive) n******s, they (expletive) all over us with this."
Discussing a collection of documents on minority hiring, ulrich allegedly said on the tapes: "There is no point in even keeping the restricted version anymore. All it could do is get us in trouble."
To which Lundwall allegedly replies: "Let me shred this thing and any other restricted version like it."
Another Texaco employee, J. David Keough, looks at a chart of women and minorities, and allegedly says on the tape@ If we can't explain this thing, I mean, it shouldn't be in there ... If it was a favorable chart, you'd want to retain it."
Later Ulrich allegedly says, "We're going to purge the (expletive) out of these books, though. We're not going to have any damn thing that ...we don't need to be in them."
The scandal has caused Texaco's stock to drop $6.1 million in value, according to news reports.
H. Carl McCall, New York State Comptroller and a Texaco shareholders, has asked the company for a full account of the matter.
The Leadership Conference of Civil Rights has requested that the federal government join the discrimination lawsuit against Texaco.
At Jet press time, the New York Times reported that investigators hired by Texaco said a study of a tape recording found that Ulrich did not use the word "n*****s." The investigators said Ulrich used the word "Nicholas." The word Nicholas" was used in a discussion in which ulrich complained that "they" had soiled St. Nicholas, after expressing discomfort with Hanukkah and Kwanzaa, the Times article said.
The Texaco investigation also found that the reference to black jelly beans, was part of an analogy taught in a diversity program - where jelly beans are used as a reference for different races, the Times article said.
COPYRIGHT 1996 Johnson Publishing Co.
COPYRIGHT 2004 Gale Group
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And just a little background information...
The above stemmed out of an ongoing class-action lawsuit launched on behalf of Texaco's Black employees alledging systemic discrimination on the job all across the board towards Texaco's Black employees. They alledge the situation had been going on for years, and that the company tho aware of the problem was doing nothing to change it.
They instead sought to destroy any records that would support the allegations made against them in the suit.
Their discussions revealed the environment and attitudes that permeated all throughout Texaco also existed at the top, which was why the employees could not make any progress within the company.
Issues of Race within Texaco's Corporate Culture
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Transcript:
There have been many complaints about the lack of minorities in management positions at Texaco. In addition, lawsuits have been brought against Texaco citing racial improprieties. Now a tape has just been released which recorded Texaco senior management complaining about its African-American workers, referring to them as "black jelly beans." Texaco is trying to downplay the tape. Charlayne Hunter-Gault has more.
CHARLAYNE HUNTER-GAULT: Two years ago, six African-American employees filed a federal anti-discrimination lawsuit against Texaco on behalf of 1400 others. The plaintiffs seek tens of millions of dollars in damages against the oil company, one of the nation's oldest and largest. In a separate action, the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission found earlier this year that Texaco failed to promote black employees because of their race.
BARI ELLEN ROBERTS, Plaintiff: I was called uppity. I was called a smart-mouthed little colored girl.
VERONICA SHINAULT, Former Texaco Employee: When you're walking down the hall and you see that there's nothing but white males that occupy these offices, and rarely do you see any women or minorities, you know that there's a problem somewhere along the line.
CHARLAYNE HUNTER-GAULT: Of its 873 executives who earn more than $106,000 a year, only 6 are black. The discrimination case exploded in a national controversy on November 4th, when court documents from a lawsuit revealed that a laid-off finance manager turned over a secret tape he recorded at corporate headquarters in August 1994. On the tape, executives seem to belittle minority employees. Three of the participants: then Treasurer Robert Ulrich, David Keough, a senior assistant treasurer, and Richard Lundwall, a senior personnel coordinator, who recorded the meeting. The taped conversations, as shown on ABC'S "Good Morning America," were released by plaintiffs' lawyers after being enhanced for sound quality. African-American employees were referred to as "black jellybeans."
ROBERT ULRICH: (tape comments as shown on screen) I've heard this diversity thing. You know, how black jellybeans agree.
RICHARD LUNDWALL: (tape comments as shown on screen) That's funny. All the black jellybeans seem to be glued to the bottom of the bag.
ROBERT ULRICH: (tape comments as shown on screen) You can't just have we and them. You can't just have black jellybeans and other jellybeans. It doesn't work.
RICHARD LUNDWALL: (tape comments as shown on screen) Yeah. But they're perpetuating the black jellybeans.
CHARLAYNE HUNTER-GAULT: There were also what appeared to be racist remarks about Texaco employees who celebrate Kwanza, an African-American holiday.
ROBERT ULRICH: (tape comments as shown on screen) I'm still having trouble with Hanukkah. Now we have Kwanza--F--ing blacks, they have s-----d all over us with this.
CHARLAYNE HUNTER-GAULT: There were more comments which have reportedly led to a criminal investigation by the FBI of obstruction of justice. The executives are heard making what seem to be plans to destroy evidence in the lawsuit.
ROBERT ULRICH: (tape comments as shown on screen) We're gonna purge the s--t out of these books, though.
CHARLAYNE HUNTER-GAULT: Texaco responded by cutting off two of the executives who are now retired. Two other executives, still with the company, have been suspended with pay. Texaco's CEO Peter Bijur.
PETER BIJUR, CEO, Texaco: (Nightline) It is incredible to me that any managers or executives within our company had the gall, the intolerance, the insensitivity, to say the things that they said.
CHARLAYNE HUNTER-GAULT: Yesterday, there was a new twist. Outside investigators, hired by Texaco and using an enhanced digital copy of the recording, concluded that Ulrich never used a racial slur. Their version of one key paragraph reads: "I'm still struggling with Hanukkah, and now we have Kwanza--I mean, I lost Christmas, poor St. Nicholas--they"--expletive deleted--"all over his beard." Texaco's CEO Bijur said the latest interpretation merely set the record straight, but he said that they do not change the categorically unacceptable context and tone of these conversations.
CHARLAYNE HUNTER-GAULT: Now, a discussion of the Texaco case and its wider implications. For that, we have Michael Armstrong, a Manhattan lawyer who was hired by Texaco to conduct an extensive investigation into the matter; Theodore Shaw is associate director counsel of the NAACP Legal Defense and Educational Fund; Michael Losey is president and CEO of the Society for Human Resource Management, an organization representing human resource executives worldwide; and Cyrus Mehri is a lawyer for the plaintiffs. And starting with you, Mr. Mehri, do the tapes set the record straight about the remarks, the racist remarks that were made?
CYRUS MEHRI, Texaco Plaintiffs' Attorney: We don't agree with Mr. Armstrong's version of the tapes. What we do agree with--
CHARLAYNE HUNTER-GAULT: I guess I should say the alleged racist remarks. I'm sorry.
MR. MEHRI: What we do agree with is Mr. Bijur's statement that this--that the tone and context and language of the tapes, even under Mr. Armstrong's digitized version, is completely unacceptable and intolerable. What these tapes have shown and they've confirmed what we've heard from people around the country, such as Jimmy Porter in California, who's was called orangutang, Cheryl Joseph, who received from her boss a cake on her birthday when she was pregnant which had the picture of a pregnant woman and then said, "It must have been the watermelon seeds." It confirms what Mike Masio, a Caucasian manager in Denver, who was told that he should fire a black woman for bringing an EEO claim. And when he resisted, his boss told him, well, we treat blacks differently down here in Texas. These tapes have confirmed the widespread feeling of class members and witnesses around the country that Texaco is a hostile place for African-Americans, Mr. Armstrong, the tapes confirm that?
MICHAEL ARMSTRONG, Texaco Attorney: (New York) Well, I made no judgment, and I was not retained to make any judgment with respect to the merits of the lawsuit. The plaintiffs claim one thing; the company claims another, and apparently they're moving to a settlement. I don't know anything about that. I was told to look into specific allegations with respect to specific tapes and specific transcripts of those tapes. When we got the tapes, we professionally enhanced them, using the modern techniques, and made them clearer. When we made them clearer, it became apparent that certain things that were apparently on the tapes weren't there, and we gave our opinion with respect to those issues.
CHARLAYNE HUNTER-GAULT: Can you just briefly--
MR. ARMSTRONG: We haven't completed our investigation of the question of document destruction or anything like that.
CHARLAYNE HUNTER-GAULT: All right. What did you find, though, that was purported to be there that wasn't?
MR. ARMSTRONG: Well, the "n" word--black--was, uh, supposedly stated by Mr. Ulrich, and that is simply not there. Uh, we, uh--our experts say that. We had--we made the tapes available to any reporters who wanted to come in and listen to them and none of them disputed the--our conclusion. I don't think there's any question of the fact that word wasn't there for whatever that use--that is--
CHARLAYNE HUNTER-GAULT: And what about the black jellybeans? What explanation is there for that?
MR. ARMSTRONG: The question of the black jellybeans is whether the statement was a--was meant as a racial slur or not. The lawyer for Mr. Ulrich says it was not and points to diversity training where jellybeans of different colors are used as an example and said that that's what he was referring to. When we look at the tape, the enhanced version seems to, uh, corroborate that by saying that when it was introduced, when the black jellybean reference was introduced, it was introduced by Mr. Ulrich as saying, uh, we don't have black jellybeans or green, differentiating in the colors, as opposed to saying all black jellybeans agree, as was on the original tape, and then the conversation that goes on--in context--fully two or three phrases--the whole black jellybean reference is only two or three phrases--indicates that Ulrich seems not to be meaning any racial slur by the reference. There is a remark in there by Lundwall, where he says--interrupts Ulrich to say, "Well, all black jellybeans stick to the bottom of the bag," and that could be Lundwall is the fellah who's taping the conversation.
CHARLAYNE HUNTER-GAULT: But you don't know what that means? You haven't determined--
MR. ARMSTRONG: You can interpret it yourself. I mean, it could mean--it could mean that-- that unfortunately blacks are stuck to the bottom of the bag by the way our society forces them to be there. It could mean other things--I don't know--but in any event, Lundwall was the fellow who was surreptitiously taping these conversations. This wasn't done as part of--to make minutes at a meeting. This was a surreptitious tape in what may have been a conversation just between these two people. We don't know. Now, we make no judgment as to--as to what remains. We just felt that this time it was necessary to lower the rhetoric by removing the terribly, terribly offensive references that seemed to have been made, and then what was really said can be judged on the merits.
CHARLAYNE HUNTER-GAULT: Mr. Mehri, how does the--you mentioned the remark by--or the, more or less, apology by the CEO, Mr. Bijur. How significant is that in terms of the whole issue that you now feel is the most important in this matter, the issue of hiring and promotion or promotion?
MR. MEHRI: If and when this case goes to trial, we're going to be bringing forward statistical data that is going to show that there is a wide disparity between Caucasians and African- Americans, where African-Americans have been underpaid by tens of millions of dollars over the last several years. We're going to be bringing forward anecdotal evidence, such as the type I mentioned earlier from around the country, and the fundamental problems at Texaco are that there's a company-wide systemic problem of discrimination against African-Americans. For example, their performance evaluation system, which is the cornerstone of all promotions and pay decisions, has been held not only by allegations by us, but by the EEOC, as being invalid, and, therefore, every evaluation that has been made over the last several years has been considered invalid. And finally, what we have is a secret promotion system and a secret bonus system at Texaco that is used widespread as a way of keeping the African-Americans behind the Caucasians.
CHARLAYNE HUNTER-GAULT: Mr. Armstrong, that was not in your specific mandate, but do you have a general reaction to what you just heard.
MR. ARMSTRONG: I really don't think it's appropriate for me to react to the allegations in a lawsuit made by the plaintiffs. Texaco has its side. I have nothing to do with that lawsuit, so I'm sorry I can't be much help.
CHARLAYNE HUNTER-GAULT: Right. Ted Shaw in New York, the NAACP's Kweisi Mfume said today that the language allegedly used was symptomatic of a larger mood of intolerance that is too often given comfort in corporate America. Is he right?
THEODORE M. SHAW, NACCP Legal Defense Fund: (New York) Well, I think that it would be a total mistake if we were to fall into the trap of evaluating the merits of this case by determining whether or not the term "black" was actually used. He's right that the underlying actions, the practices, and the policies of Texaco are really what--that's what should be at issue here. These statements that were alleged to be made are consistent with the allegations in the complaint about the actual discrimination. So, uh--I think that's what we need to focus on.
CHARLAYNE HUNTER-GAULT: But my question is: Is this situation unique, or is this--
MR. SHAW: No, it's not unique.
CHARLAYNE HUNTER-GAULT: --as Kweisi Mfume was suggesting--rampant throughout corporate America?
MR. SHAW: Well, I can answer the question this way. The Legal Defense Fund receives thousands upon thousands of phone calls and requests for assistance in writing on an annual basis, uh, alleging that discrimination has been taking place within the corporate environment. We can only do a small portion of the number of cases that we're asked to take on, so that leads me to conclude that this is a problem that is more systemic than what people care to admit.
CHARLAYNE HUNTER-GAULT: Mm-hmm.
MR. SHAW: And this is a problem that should receive nationwide attention because it's a nationwide problem.
CHARLAYNE HUNTER-GAULT: Nationwide problem, Mr. Losey?
MICHAEL LOSEY, Society for Human Resource Management: I would have to disagree. It's not a nationwide problem. If so, why the outrage? Why do so many people recognize this as inconsistent with what they see in their community, what they see as their company policy where they work, what they see as a practice? It jumps off the table if these accusations are anywhere close to correct that they're inappropriate.
MR. SHAW: Yeah. It's terribly naive to think that, uh, the one case in which somebody spills the beans--if I can use that term--uh--and talks about what happened within this all white-male conversation is the only example of this happening. Now, when I say this is a nationwide problem, that doesn't mean that every corporation, every company is engaging in racial discrimination. What it does mean is that there is a much broader problem than what we tend to admit these days at a time in which the general public discourse on issues of race suggests that the only people who are being victimized by racial discrimination are the white males. Our complaints and our cases, the cases we litigate simply belie that contention, and it would be a terrible mistake to isolate this and say that this is--uh--one instance which is unrelated to anything that happens elsewhere. That's terribly naive.
CHARLAYNE HUNTER-GAULT: Mr. Mehri, what's your--
MR. SHAW: But people are going to jump to do that.
CHARLAYNE HUNTER-GAULT: What's your take on that?
MR. MEHRI: Texaco is a laggard among laggards. Texaco is a place that has a good old boy network that's even been recognized by their EEO officer who came on a couple of years ago. Early on in this case, we developed a chart that just showed how Texaco compared with other peer companies in terms of diversity commitments. Texaco didn't--
CHARLAYNE HUNTER-GAULT: I'm not sure that can be seen, or we--
MR. MEHRI: But Texaco doesn't even have the basic building-block programs, such as mentoring, diversity training, evaluating managers based on their diversity, compliance, and commitment. Texaco is far behind its peers.
CHARLAYNE HUNTER-GAULT: But you heard what Mr. Losey said, that Texaco was an aberration.
MR. MEHRI: Texaco is indicative of what's happening across the country, but just like what's happened in different other periods of time before, uh, this is going to be a landmark case, and a new paradigm is going to have to be set, where Texaco is going to have to set the standard. They're not going to be the worst. They're going to have to be not only the best in the oil industry, they're going to have to be the best in corporate America and set a new standard if they want this case resolved.
CHARLAYNE HUNTER-GAULT: Mr. Armstrong, I know, again, that you have a specific mandate here, but what is your sense about--having heard and being familiar with the complaints against Texaco- -do you think that this is aberrational, this is unique to Texaco?
MR. ARMSTRONG: (clearing throat) Well, I hate to duck again. I--I can only say that my experience with the company is that, for one thing, they hired me. And they asked me to look at these--at these allegations, and they didn't tell me to come out any particular way. I have a background that indicates that, I think, that I would--I would come out the right way. I'm counsel to the New York Urban League. I was a member of the NAACP in 1950.
CHARLAYNE HUNTER-GAULT: So what are you saying, that Texaco is trying to do the right thing?
MR. ARMSTRONG: All I know is that people I've seen who have dealt with me have--have told me that they want to--they want to know it as it is. They want to know what really is true, because they say to me--and appear to be very sincere--that they want to do something about it, and if there is a problem, they want to know about it. And--and there hasn't been any interference with what I have been trying to do, I can't judge the statistics that--that are involved in the lawsuit or the merits of the complaint. I--you asked me, and I will tell you that I observe that the people who have set me to my task seem to me to be very sincere, and they want me to do my job. And I'm going to do it.
CHARLAYNE HUNTER-GAULT: Mr. Mehri, is this case going to be settled, do you think?
MR. MEHRI: Mr. Bijur has made a lot of statements in the press. We have a policy--we don't talk about settlement--but if Mr. Bijur is serious, he should be calling us up and telling us directly what he's telling--talking about with the press. We are right now preparing for a hearing in ten days or so about the destruction of documents that have taken place to obstruct justice here. After that, we're going to be moving to get the class certified, shortly thereafter, and then we will be preparing for trial.
CHARLAYNE HUNTER-GAULT: Mr. Shaw, what do you think the solution is, not only to Texaco but to these other things that you've described? Is it more lawsuits?
MR. SHAW: Well, I think that lawsuits are always a last resort, but they are a necessary weapon in the arsenal against racial discrimination. Obviously, there are companies that have implemented affirmative action policies, have sought diversity, have been fair in the treatment of employees, and I think that those companies ought to be sought out and emulated. This company has been caught with its pants down. I hope it doesn't engage in a now--an effort to try to tell us that we didn't hear what we heard and disaggregate the evidence. I think that this company needs to get its act together and set an example.
CHARLAYNE HUNTER-GAULT: Briefly, Mr. Losey, what do you think the answer is, not just to Texaco but generally?
MR. LOSEY: Generally, this is a wake-up call. The question is the equality of our nation, the diversity, are these soft issues? When CEO's are worried about global competition and national competition, and shareholder equity, sometimes these things don't get the priority. I agree with other spokesmen. This, I can guarantee you--the Texaco chairman is doing little more this week than concentrating on this. It can bring the focus of the corporation to an abrupt halt and interrupt important activity. Clearly, this is a wake-up call.
CHARLAYNE HUNTER-GAULT: All right, gentlemen. Thank you.
[/End of Transcript]
This case is also noteable for another reason as well. Lundwall and Texaco treasurer Robert Ulrich were later convicted of obstruction of justice for destroying evidence in the earlier case. However that 1998 criminal case, US v. Lundwall, was cited in Bill Clinton's 1999 impeachment as a recent example of how destruction of evidence is still a criminal act, even when the evidence is for a civil case. Now for some reason a certain batch of Republicans deem it necessary to disregard this principal and destroy evidence again, even in the face of a judges order, ...a whole lot of evidence from eMails to videotapes etc., etc., but many in the United States of Amnesia have forgotten. {sigh}
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Oh good Lord give me a day and Ill get back to you...I beg b/c Im glutton for punishment, you sadist :P
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Oh good Lord give me a day and Ill get back to you...I beg b/c Im glutton for punishment, you sadist :P
(http://www.jaguarenterprises.net/images/whip.jpg)
Mistress Jaguar will be here... with her whip! The whip isn't so bad... doesn't hurt as much as the strap-on. ;)
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If you look anything like that pic..... :o We gotta do these debates in person!
Man, thats so damn long...can't read it all.
If company executives were taped using racial slurs, they got what they deserved.
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If you look anything like that pic..... :o We gotta do these debates in person!
Sha right! Like little 'ole me, ...110lbs soaking wet is gonna debate a bunch of 200lb+ bodybuilders in person?
Man, thats so damn long...can't read it all.
If company executives were taped using racial slurs, they got what they deserved.
And you'd be wrong.
That's part of the problem, ...the refusal to look at the evidence in it's entirety, in context.
People rely on cliff notes, get all riled up and make hasty judgements without the understanding required.
Whether the execs used racial slurs, or were caught on tape doing it, ...is irrelevant to the bigger issue,
which is the systemic discrimination throughout the oldest & largest oil company in the country.
It's almost like people think that because they said it, was the problem, ...and had they kept their mouths shut they wouldn't have deserved what they got, ...but it's deeper than that. They got what they got because of their practices. They can think what they want to... and as far as I'm concerned, behind closed doors among themselves, they can say what they want to, but when they actively pursue a course of discrimination and the subsequent obstruction of justice, rather than pursuing a remedy ...there's a price to be paid. Most people and/or companies are rarely "caught on tape", ...just as most men don't have a blue skeleton hanging in someone's closet (literally), ...but just because the immediate as well as long term effects are not as easily recognized by ALL concerned, only by those being discrimated against, or used as human humidors, ...doesn't mean it's not pervasive and widespread.
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Thats alright, you can be 110lbs and still be stacked like that pic :) If you were 110lbs and lookin like that it would be you that had the potential advantage.
I agree 100%. Its the underlying agenda, not just whats said. If a company is proven to have racist agendas, I have zero sympathies for them, they should be hit. I didn't read it all, as I confessed. If the prior lawsuits were BS discrimination and someone crying foul unjustly, then they are to blame as well (actually these people are worse cause they negatively affect the perception of discrimination claims and affect real cases of racism). Best person for the job IMO...period.
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Thats alright, you can be 110lbs and still be stacked like that pic :) If you were 110lbs and lookin like that it would be you that had the potential advantage.
I agree 100%. Its the underlying agenda, not just whats said. If a company is proven to have racist agendas, I have zero sympathies for them, they should be hit. I didn't read it all, as I confessed. If the prior lawsuits were BS discrimination and someone crying foul unjustly, then they are to blame as well (actually these people are worse cause they negatively affect the perception of discrimination claims and affect real cases of racism). Best person for the job IMO...period.
Judi likes pizza and biting. ;D
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(http://www.jaguarenterprises.net/images/whip.jpg)
Mistress Jaguar will be here... with her whip! The whip isn't so bad... doesn't hurt as much as the strap-on. ;)
LOL MWUWHHAHAH...OUCH :-[ ahhhh so thats what you like, Im sorry sweet heart Im a giver not a taker :-*
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Ok so I still havent read it all as Im studying for a round of tests but I scanned it and I assume that the execs were fired or forced into early retirment or otherwise reprimanded and that the company took a big hit money wise ordered by the court. This is shitty but unfortunately the way some people feel, but this does not illustrate a problem with the system. This illustrates a problem with a company operating within the system. The court orders are the systems way of correcting the problem so its not the system again it is the people in the system that create the problems.
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Thats alright, you can be 110lbs and still be stacked like that pic :) If you were 110lbs and lookin like that it would be you that had the potential advantage.
Not when you can pick me up and have your way with me... tossing me about or simply putting me over your knee if you can't win an argument. I actually had someone do that once. It was soo funny. We were arguing a point in person, and he was getting trashed so badly... that out of frustration... he picked me up, put me across his knee, and proceeded to spank me... all the while saying "I may have no hope in winning this battle, ...but dammit, I'ma win this war". it was actually kind of funny, ...and he didn't spank hard at all.
I agree 100%. Its the underlying agenda, not just whats said. If a company is proven to have racist agendas, I have zero sympathies for them, they should be hit. I didn't read it all, as I confessed. If the prior lawsuits were BS discrimination and someone crying foul unjustly, then they are to blame as well (actually these people are worse cause they negatively affect the perception of discrimination claims and affect real cases of racism). Best person for the job IMO...period.
The lawsuits were very real, and had been launched for very valid reasons, and the companies own records bore that out, as did their own EEO committee. These execs were trying to destroy all records that could be used against them in the civil case, and were caught on tape discussing just that. Their stock plummetted and they had to answer to shareholders... they also I believe reached a settlement with the aggrieved employees.
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Judi likes pizza and biting. ;D
(http://www.jaguarenterprises.net/images/FrightenedMouse.gif)
EEEEK! No biting!
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Ok so I still havent read it all as Im studying for a round of tests but I scanned it and I assume that the execs were fired or forced into early retirment or otherwise reprimanded and that the company took a big hit money wise ordered by the court. This is shitty but unfortunately the way some people feel, but this does not illustrate a problem with the system. This illustrates a problem with a company operating within the system. The court orders are the systems way of correcting the problem so its not the system again it is the people in the system that creates the problems.
This makes no sense to me. If it doesn't illustrate a problem with the system, instead a company operating within the system, then it stands to reason, there's something wrong with the system... no? Maybe you should read it. ;)
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This makes no sense to me. If it doesn't illustrate a problem with the system, instead a company operating within the system, then it stands to reason, there's something wrong with the system... no? Maybe you should read it. ;)
I definitly can see your point, but its the chicken and the egg scenario. No matter what the system will have problems and there are certain people certainly not the majority that will do unethical things and try and take advantage of people. The problem with the system is that it can only react and cannot be proactive as then it might be seen as being biased without justification. The systems job is to create a level playing field which it has and to enforce the level playing field which it did. Maybe we should have addressed this earlier in the discussion but what would you say the systems role is? as we may have different ideas.
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I definitly can see your point, but its the chicken and the egg scenario. No matter what the system will have problems and there are certain people certainly not the majority that will do unethical things and try and take advantage of people. The problem with the system is that it can only react and cannot be proactive as then it might be seen as being biased without justification. The systems job is to create a level playing field which it has and to enforce the level playing field which it did. Maybe we should have addressed this earlier in the discussion but what would you say the systems role is? as we may have different ideas.
Tony,
You asked me to be brief, ...I was.
You asked me for one example, ...I gave you one, and did so using the brevity you previously requested.
You asked me to elaborate with details, ... I did that too, providing you with the details to understand, as well as the transcript of a round table discussion on this very incident, which while egregious is no where near isolated.
What the fvck have YOU done lately, ...other than make demands? {tapping my foot} Well mister man? what? >:(
Your trying to carry this conversation forward without you having the understanding of the basis of this conversation is equivalent to those who say forget about slavery, it happened years ago let's move on. Well you can't move forward without an understanding of what occurred in the past and why. Furthermore, if you move forward, while facing the wrong direction, you're certainly not going to get to your intended destination now are you?
Case validated and closed 8)
Please read the posts.
Thank You
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Well, I may or may not win the argument but this hand can pack some real steam... and enjoys doing so. ;)
Yeah, from what you say, that company has got it commin to em.
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Well, I may or may not win the argument but this hand can pack some real steam... and enjoys doing so. ;)
Yeah, from what you say, that company has got it commin to em.
And that's why I'd never debate someone bigger than me in person. My bottom is very delicate.
It's not just Texaco though. They took the hit, in much the same way Charlie Sheen did over Heidi Fleiss.
"Institutionalized racism" is quite prevalent, ...moreso than people realize. OK, so it's not as bad as it once was,
...but it's still there, and it's presence to whatever degree it has manifested over the years has resulted in some very distinct repercussions for the black community in particular, and all of American society as a whole.
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hahaha, that was good.
Agreed to a point. In my field, we don't encounter this issue. In hospitals the hiring policies are preferrential to minorities. Perhaps being in the north, I see less as well. Some fields of work and areas of the country may still have more issues but I would argue the bulk of them don't
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? You don't think "Sound Judgment, character, integrity" are important qualities for the president?
;)