Author Topic: Obama: Not a Crackpot Church  (Read 3709 times)

shootfighter1

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Re: Obama: Not a Crackpot Church
« Reply #25 on: March 27, 2008, 01:51:28 PM »
True, and thats where I acknowledge and have some understanding of the struggle.  All people should understand the history of racism in America.  It should also make sucessful black families even more proud.  To acheive against greater odds gives pride, belief and self-respect.  Pride, love and family are key elements in success.
I think a key point to bring people closer is that together, as Americans, we voted for civil rights for equality.  Thats why many are not in favor of Affirmative Action (or federally forced redistribution of wealth), that policy in itself is based on race and invokes bad feelings again on both sides.  I am for funding special programs and opportunities to low income students and youth, cause thats where change can really happen.

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Re: Obama: Not a Crackpot Church
« Reply #26 on: March 27, 2008, 01:53:59 PM »
True, and thats where I acknowledge and have some understanding of the struggle.  All people should understand the history of racism in America.  It should also make sucessful black families even more proud.  To acheive against greater odds gives pride, belief and self-respect.  Pride, love and family are key elements in success.
I think a key point to bring people closer is that together, as Americans, we voted for civil rights for equality.  Thats why many are not in favor of Affirmative Action (or federally forced redistribution of wealth), that policy in itself is based on race and invokes bad feelings again on both sides.  I am for funding special programs and opportunities to low income students and youth, cause thats where change can really happen.

I agree. 

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Re: Obama: Not a Crackpot Church
« Reply #27 on: March 27, 2008, 02:47:55 PM »
True, and thats where I acknowledge and have some understanding of the struggle.  All people should understand the history of racism in America.  It should also make sucessful black families even more proud.  To acheive against greater odds gives pride, belief and self-respect.  Pride, love and family are key elements in success.
I think a key point to bring people closer is that together, as Americans, we voted for civil rights for equality.  Thats why many are not in favor of Affirmative Action (or federally forced redistribution of wealth), that policy in itself is based on race and invokes bad feelings again on both sides.  I am for funding special programs and opportunities to low income students and youth, cause thats where change can really happen.
I would have said agreed with you on the last part, until I saw that it rarely helps. There is no incentive, most of the people just keep using the system with no repercussions as to "you must complete and pass x amt of hours in class or work x amt of hours at a job" they just collect checks, and take out more student loans, more personal loans.

All in all in the end it saves more money really, cause if you were to put quotas then they would not get filled, and all hell would break loose. 

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Re: Obama: Not a Crackpot Church
« Reply #28 on: March 28, 2008, 02:47:03 AM »
LOL  :-[ you made me blush...I dont think this is the best analogy but i think you were going for something here.

Ya ...your attention! I think my analogy got yours.  :D

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But there are unfortunately many people who still harp on this, not on a daily basis but slavery is what it generally always boils down to.

But as long as people choose to dismiss it, or look away from it because it makes them uncomfortable, the roots of the problems can never be excised. It's not that Obama, or anyone else wants to harp on slavery, ...just the opposite, ...however, without an understanding of your past, you will not know how you got to the present, and without an understanding of the present, you cannot get to the future. You will forever be running East looking for a sunset. First you must get your bearings. it's not about wanting to milk slavery, it's about creating understanding to move the country forward. Obama does that across the board, whether the topic be race relations, ...or the state of the economy. you have to know HOW you got into the mess in order to solve it, ...and you cannot get out of a situation with the thinking you used to first get you into the situation. Just have a listen to his recent economic speech as an example. He paints a chronological picture for us, giving us the timeline from the past to the present situation, along with a plan for the future.



Those who forget their past, or do not learn from it, are destined to repeat it, ...and right now, more of the same current economic trend is not something America can afford to continue to go through.  Citing the past, to understand the present, empowers you to accept responsibility to more effectively take charge of the future. It is nothing new. It's a very necessary step in moving forward beyond the challenges of the present to the brighter future of tomorrow.


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I mean for Gods sake there were people not to long ago who were ordered by courts to pay reperations for slavery, Come the fvck on. The people alive today had no bearing on that situation what so ever.

This is very innacurate. There have never been any reparations paid, ...nor will there ever be. Most intellegent people in the African American community realize this and have dismissed the idea of reparations (as most people know it) It would be impossible to do. Damages have been paid to the Japanese because of the attrocities committed by the US gov to them in WWII, as well some form of reparation has been paid to Jews, again stemmimng from WWII, but there is no way reparations, comparable to the damages suffered can ever be paid to African Americans. Leaders in the black community have known this for years. That is why great men and community organizers like NAACP founder Carter Woodson have always advocated African Americans should "Ask not what your country can do for you, ...ask what you can do for your country" Simply put, make the country a better place for future generations. It was such a profound call to action that John F. Kennedy decided to ask that very same question to all Americans in a speech which went down as one of the great historic speeches of your nation. Had your nation been listening when Carter Woodson said it, a lot of her issues today perhaps would not have festered, compounded, and become as chronic as they did, ...but unfortunately, the chronic problem with the children of America's former slave owners, is that they have an aversion to listening to the children of their former slaves. Much progress has been made, but much more has still to be accomplished, ...and until this issue of RACE in America is resolved, America will not, ...infact cannot move forward to her destiny of a more perfect union. The best reparations for slavery is to revitalize the school systems and provide opportunity for ALL children. But this must be a partnership with the political will from all segments of society behind it, ...because what affects one, should interest us all, ...if not for altruism, ...then at least for our own preservation. Kids with futures aren't robbing you at gunpoint. Kids with futures aren't standing on street corners slinging crack.

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Like I said its not that we need to forget about it and education is what needs to be done. It is the blaming of society for individual short comings that needs to stop. The problem is that society cant say anything or the people who do will be labeled as rascist. I guess what my point was that the excuses need to stop and that individual accountablity as well as the accountability of the african american community should be called into action. You dont get good grades at school, study more - you keep getting arrested, stop breaking the law. I cant tell you how many times ive heard african american activist say that the system is set up for AA youths to fail.

But for so many years this has been the case. When you have separate schools with inferior education, how is someone supposed to get ahead in life. You may graduate with a high school diploma, but if you are still illiterate, that diploma does you no good.  The schools and how they are financed, as well as the quality of education they provide, has an impact all these years later. America is still feeling the legacy she handed down to subsequent generations, and some segments of society have continuously been feeling it more than others. Accountability is important, but there is much to account for on all sides, including those who may not have had a hand in constructing the trainwreck, ...but who sat idly by and watched it happen as it didn't directly affect them.

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This is horse crap, Guess what an african american high schooler with a 3.5 gpa has a much greater chance of getting into a specific college than an caucasian american high schooler with the same gpa.

The sad part is... depending on where that kid went to school his 3.5 might have equaled a 2.1 elsewhere. The system is not perfect, there are advantages and disadvantages (both real and perceived) that african americans and caucasian americans can point to. The reason for this, is that America is still a divided nation (relatively speaking). The immense advantages certain groups have held for years is so far off the scale, that something had to be implemented to at least level out the playing field somewhat. Had she not veered so far off the path, a need for Affirmative Action solutions designed to remedy the situation would not have been required. The problem is not in the program itself, but rather in the inefficient implementaion of it, and it's exploitation to further agendas on all sides. I doubt though that the caucasian son of a multi-billionaire with that same gpa would have difficulty gaining admittance, ...especially when his father & grandfather were alumni. This is also part of the priviledge enjoyed my many, but it's so hush/hush, that unless you are part of this crowd, you don't think about it, don't realize it's even happening. It's far more easy to just point the finger at Affirmative Action, or use it as a scapegoat for their own or someone else's shortcomings.

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The system is the same for everyone, quit complaining about your misfortunes and do something to change it...sorry i know i got on a soap box here

A system that is the same for everyone is what Obama is trying to accomplish. A system for the people, of the people, by the people, ...not one created of by and for special interest lobby groups. When EQUAL opportunity for a good education is afforded to ALL children, you break that cycle of disenfranchisement. Many of the problems Obama has been addressing have traditionally been experienced in poorer areas, but with the past 8 years of Bush economic policy, middle class mainstream America is getting a taste of it as well. That needs to be turned around before America takes on the feel of a 3rd world country ie: Upper classes & lower classes with no middle class whatsoever. But you have to be willing to roll up your sleeves and recognize we're all in it together.

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Re: Obama: Not a Crackpot Church
« Reply #29 on: March 28, 2008, 03:51:16 AM »
A MOUSE TRAP STORY


A mouse looked through the crack in the wall to see the farmer and his wife open a package.

What food might this contain?'

The mouse wondered - he was devastated to discover it was a mousetrap.  :o

Retreating to the farmyard, the mouse proclaimed the warning:

There is a mousetrap in the house!
There is a mousetrap in the house!!


The chicken clucked & scratched, raised her head and said,

'Mr.Mouse, I can tell this is a grave concern TO YOU, but it's of no consequence to me. I can't be bothered by it.'

The mouse turned to the pig and told him,

'There is a mousetrap in the house!
There is a mousetrap in the house!!'


The pig sympathized, but said, I'm so very sorry, Mr.Mouse, but there's nothing I can do about it but pray.
Be assured you are in my prayers.

The mouse turned to the cow and said,

'There is a mousetrap in the house!
There is a mousetrap in the house!!'


The cow said, 'Wow, Mr. Mouse. I'm sorry for you, but it's no skin off my nose.'

So, the mouse returned to the house, head down and dejected, to face the farmer's mousetrap alone.

That very night a sound was heard throughout the house –like the sound of a mousetrap catching its prey.

The farmer's wife rushed to see what was caught. In the darkness, she did not see it was a venomous snake whose tail the trap had caught.

The snake bit the farmer's wife. The farmer rushed her to the hospital, and she returned home with a fever.

Everyone knows you treat a fever with fresh chicken soup, so the farmer took his hatchet to the farmyard for the soup's main ingredient.

But his wife's sickness continued, so friends and neighbors came to sit with her around the clock.

To feed them, the farmer butchered the pig.

The farmer's wife did not get well; she died.

So many people came for her funeral, the farmer slaughtered the cow to provide enough meat for them all.

The mouse looked upon it all from his crack in the wall with great sadness.

So, the next time you hear someone is facing a problem and think it doesn't concern you, remember:

When one of us is threatened, we are all at risk.
We are all involved in this journey called life.
We must keep an eye out for one another and make an extra effort to encourage one another.



REMEMBER!!!
EACH OF US IS A VITAL THREAD IN ANOTHER PERSON'S TAPESTRY;

OUR LIVES ARE WOVEN TOGETHER FOR A REASON.

w

shootfighter1

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Re: Obama: Not a Crackpot Church
« Reply #30 on: March 28, 2008, 06:56:43 AM »
Jag, we had a ton of education on slavery and black history in schools all taught in a critical manner.  It is not ignored or forgotten and though many of our families were not here, most white kids feel shame in school when learning about this segment of our history. 

Most people understand the past, they just want to move on.  Other cultures and other peoples have overcome and moved on without forgetting the struggles of their ancestors.  Focusing too much on the past is detrimental.

This is where some in the black community have problems IMO...they are too focused on the past instead of moving forward, as we both agree is the path for continued success.  When these leaders focus on the past & entitlements, it not only sets cultural beliefs but causes backlash from non-whites that continues to keep some divides.  We get plenty of education on slavery and post-slavery racism in mainstream schools.

I have seen affirmative action in graduate schools and it is an uncomfotable subject.  My cousin sat on the board of admissions where black & hispanic students were accepted before asian, indian and white students with better grades and qualifications because of AA.  This is fact, not speculation.  He was quite uncomfortable with this.  Same thing happens with funding for higher education and it causes bad feelings, particularly with lower or middle income non-black & non-latino Americans.  I understand the concept, just don't agree with how it has been instituted.

I agree with you on unequal education but in speaking with some of the inner city teachers, the problem is much more complicated.  They say, too many disruptive kids coming from broken families that don't want to learn and cause trouble for others.  The school cannot be the parent and the educator.  I believe you must offer good $ to inner city teachers (I think they have done that in some systems already) to increase quality of education but the problem will not go away unless you fix families and the kids see learning as important and useful for them...which many do not.

youandme

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Re: Obama: Not a Crackpot Church
« Reply #31 on: March 28, 2008, 07:26:25 AM »
Jag, we had a ton of education on slavery and black history in schools all taught in a critical manner.  It is not ignored or forgotten and though many of our families were not here, most white kids feel shame in school when learning about this segment of our history. 

True, but not sure why, when it was African Kings trading their own people to the British.

shootfighter1

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Re: Obama: Not a Crackpot Church
« Reply #32 on: March 28, 2008, 07:51:35 AM »
Slavery was a worldwide institution.  Very sad part of history but true.  We must focus on the fact that we came together to end slavery 150yrs ago and passed comprehensive civil rights acts in the 60s.  Sometimes it seems we get a little too much focus on this in schools.  Its necessary but not to be overdone to cause continued divided feelings.

My wife's mother just retired from a nearly all black elementary school, in a poor area of town.  She & her husband are one of the only white families in the neighborhood (I know they are the only white family on their street), but they have very good neighbors despite crime in other areas closeby.  She comments on how uninvolved the parents are and how dysfunctional the majority of the kids are at the school.  Their English is horrible, dress is poor and even at the elementary age, they don't respect the teachers.  Its not the teachers fault, who try very hard, its the lack of parenting and skills that should be taught at home.

tonymctones

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Re: Obama: Not a Crackpot Church
« Reply #33 on: March 28, 2008, 02:24:21 PM »
GOODNESS gracious Jag I swear ive written papers on less than your post.

Plz next time paraphrase ;D

The simple fact of the matter is a person who does well in high school has the oppurtunity to go to college. LOL Darling ive worked since I was 13 yrs old and im still working to put myself through college to this day. The oppurtunities affored to me are extended to all student regardless of race. How many multi millionaires do you know, Im sure the same could be said about a multi millionaire black persons children as well.
I may be mistaken about the reperations but i believe that a case was ruled in favor of it and then overturned. My analogy was with all things equal so the AA kid and the CA kid were from the same high school with same qualifications meaning if the AA kid had a 2.1 so would the CA kid. Yes some schools do give better educations, but hey guess what if you live in a shitty school district MOVE!!!!!!!!. nobody forces them to live there, there are low income housing all over the place in and out of the city find one in a good school district. The system is the same for everybody its the individuals in the system, teachers, students, parents, etc....that cause the problem.

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Re: Obama: Not a Crackpot Church
« Reply #34 on: March 28, 2008, 03:28:14 PM »
Most people understand the past, they just want to move on.  Other cultures and other peoples have overcome and moved on without forgetting the struggles of their ancestors.  Focusing too much on the past is detrimental.

That's my point. Why have these other cultures been able to move forward beyond the point the US has?
It's because after the abolition of slavery, people were allowed to simply get on with things. The USA through Jim Crow, and other forms of legislative and systemic discrimination did not. It simply perpetuated the cycle, and the damage done is still being felt today.
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tonymctones

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Re: Obama: Not a Crackpot Church
« Reply #35 on: March 28, 2008, 03:38:38 PM »
That's my point. Why have these other cultures been able to move forward beyond the point the US has?
It's because after the abolition of slavery, people were allowed to simply get on with things. The USA through Jim Crow, and other forms of legislative and systemic discrimination did not. It simply perpetuated the cycle, and the damage done is still being felt today.
You could say the same thing about afirmative action

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Re: Obama: Not a Crackpot Church
« Reply #36 on: March 28, 2008, 04:59:55 PM »
You could say the same thing about afirmative action

These other areas have affirmative action as well. I think it's all in the administration of these programs.
How can I put it gently, ...your country hasn't been the most efficient when it comes to getting things done.
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shootfighter1

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Re: Obama: Not a Crackpot Church
« Reply #37 on: March 28, 2008, 05:09:06 PM »
Obviously there are a multitude of factors at play.  However, there are fair opportunities now for everyone.  Newer immigrants have taken advantage of this and they typically do not start off in a position of wealth or influence.  People with strong families, strong work ethic, hungry for success with no sense of entitlement, self-worth and pride will move forward and be successful, however thats defined for them.  Others will not.  Regardless of the past, this is the way it is.  Be best to adapt and better oneself and those you care about.

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Re: Obama: Not a Crackpot Church
« Reply #38 on: March 28, 2008, 05:35:38 PM »
These other areas have affirmative action as well. I think it's all in the administration of these programs.
How can I put it gently, ...your country hasn't been the most efficient when it comes to getting things done.
Again you put it on the government, instead of on the people. Like shoot said other immigrant races have prospered under this same government, so why is it that AA community seems to be the one that stresses inequality and unequal opportunity? The opportunities are the same for everybody you either choose to take advantage of them or you dont.

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Re: Obama: Not a Crackpot Church
« Reply #39 on: March 28, 2008, 05:40:25 PM »
Again you put it on the government, instead of on the people. Like shoot said other immigrant races have prospered under this same government, so why is it that AA community seems to be the one that stresses inequality and unequal opportunity? The opportunities are the same for everybody you either choose to take advantage of them or you dont.

This is a delusion that people constantly spout. The opportunities are NOT the same for everybody.

Not withstanding, ...there does come a point in every person's life when they do have to simply pull themselves up by the bootstraps and do what they can. Life isn't fair or equal, but if there is a will, ...there is a way.
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tonymctones

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Re: Obama: Not a Crackpot Church
« Reply #40 on: March 28, 2008, 06:05:48 PM »
This is a delusion that people constantly spout. The opportunities are NOT the same for everybody.

Not withstanding, ...there does come a point in every person's life when they do have to simply pull themselves up by the bootstraps and do what they can. Life isn't fair or equal, but if there is a will, ...there is a way.
plz give me an example of how the opportunities are not the same

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Re: Obama: Not a Crackpot Church
« Reply #41 on: March 28, 2008, 06:08:30 PM »
plz give me an example of how the opportunities are not the same

Texaco; where the black jelly beans stick to the bottom
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Re: Obama: Not a Crackpot Church
« Reply #42 on: March 28, 2008, 10:12:21 PM »
Again you put it on the government, instead of on the people. Like shoot said other immigrant races have prospered under this same government, so why is it that AA community seems to be the one that stresses inequality and unequal opportunity? The opportunities are the same for everybody you either choose to take advantage of them or you dont.

First of all, immigrants will always have the advantage over native born any day of the week because they have a different mindset. It's not about race, it's about status & mindset. Immigrants are those who are DO-ers.

That's why you will have a man like Obama with an immmigrant mentality (afforded to him by his years abroad) outperforming Cletus or Buford from the trailer park in Kentucky who opts for the path of least resistance.

It takes alot of ovaries to pack up your life and move to a foreign country where you might not even speak the language, but they do it because they have goals & dreams that fuel them. We have a saying in network marketing... "It's not the 'How', ...it's the 'WHY'". But it all starts with the willingness to take action. Immigrants take action, and will always outperform native born in any country they go to. It's just the immigrant mentality.

They plan their work, then work their plan. And they're not afraid to climb an uphill battle, they welcome it.
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Re: Obama: Not a Crackpot Church
« Reply #43 on: March 29, 2008, 03:25:48 AM »
A minister & member of the congregation of Obama's church (Trinity United) Speaks About their church

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Re: Obama: Not a Crackpot Church
« Reply #44 on: March 29, 2008, 10:26:53 AM »
Jag, we had a ton of education on slavery and black history in schools all taught in a critical manner.  It is not ignored or forgotten and though many of our families were not here, most white kids feel shame in school when learning about this segment of our history. 


I don't entirely agree.  Our history books have traditionally been whitewashed.  We have treated the issue of slavery and Jim Crow like the Japanese treat their WWII atrocities.  I think there was about a page or two about it in my history book growing up.  We did the same cleansing when it came to most of the bad things our country has done.  Check out the book "Lies My Teacher Told Me."  Quite eye opening.   

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Re: Obama: Not a Crackpot Church
« Reply #45 on: March 29, 2008, 10:52:50 AM »
Texaco; where the black jelly beans stick to the bottom
lol i know i asked you to paraphrase but could you elaborate for me, it sounds like a glass ceiling but i would like to know the details plz ;D

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Re: Obama: Not a Crackpot Church
« Reply #46 on: March 29, 2008, 10:58:35 AM »
First of all, immigrants will always have the advantage over native born any day of the week because they have a different mindset. It's not about race, it's about status & mindset. Immigrants are those who are DO-ers.

That's why you will have a man like Obama with an immmigrant mentality (afforded to him by his years abroad) outperforming Cletus or Buford from the trailer park in Kentucky who opts for the path of least resistance.

It takes alot of ovaries to pack up your life and move to a foreign country where you might not even speak the language, but they do it because they have goals & dreams that fuel them. We have a saying in network marketing... "It's not the 'How', ...it's the 'WHY'". But it all starts with the willingness to take action. Immigrants take action, and will always outperform native born in any country they go to. It's just the immigrant mentality.

They plan their work, then work their plan. And they're not afraid to climb an uphill battle, they welcome it.
LOL nice touch
I completely agree, but that means that its the people not the system. we all navigate through the same system of course there are certain people who are going to do unethical things, but the system is not unethical and does not discriminate between people.

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Re: Obama: Not a Crackpot Church
« Reply #47 on: March 29, 2008, 12:31:02 PM »
"But it all starts with the willingness to take action. Immigrants take action, and will always outperform native born in any country they go to. It's just the immigrant mentality.
They plan their work, then work their plan. And they're not afraid to climb an uphill battle, they welcome it"
--------------------------

Your exactly right jag and this is difficult (and why its not done more) but this is the mindset of advancement.  Without this mindset, you do not, and in reality, should not prosper.  Its the same message our schools teach...work hard, study, sacrifice and you are rewarded.  Its not the gov's job or other people's job to give to those without that work ethic and mindset.  Many minorities have that mindset and take advantage of the newer opportunities...and they should feel proud.

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Re: Obama: Not a Crackpot Church
« Reply #48 on: March 29, 2008, 12:32:56 PM »
Beach, I can appreciate a different experience.  When I went to public school, we spent a lot of time on slavery and black history.  There has been a lot done to change teachings.  Even in February, we focused on black history month in school...well elementary and jr high at least.  Then there was quite a lot devoted to civil rights in government class (high school).  Its not undertaught.  I imagine there are differences based on the teachers and curriculums. Then in college, we had countless discussions on these and related topics.  I guess thats one reason I like debating it.  (please don't quiz me, I forgot much more than I remember).   :)

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Re: Obama: Not a Crackpot Church
« Reply #49 on: March 29, 2008, 12:55:00 PM »
Beach, I can appreciate a different experience.  When I went to public school, we spent a lot of time on slavery and black history.  There has been a lot done to change teachings.  Even in February, we focused on black history month in school...well elementary and jr high at least.  Then there was quite a lot devoted to civil rights in government class (high school).  Its not undertaught.  I imagine there are differences based on the teachers and curriculums. Then in college, we had countless discussions on these and related topics.  I guess thats one reason I like debating it.  (please don't quiz me, I forgot much more than I remember).   :)

It has been a few moons since I was in high school.  :)  Maybe books have changed.  You should check out the book I recommended.  Amazing what we weren't taught in school. 

I agree with you about the immigrant work ethic.  Both my parents were immigrants.  They had it.  We have an extremely large immigrant population here and I've seen it in many of our immigrants.  They bring that old Protestant Work Ethic with them.