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Getbig Misc Discussion Boards => Religious Debates & Threads => Topic started by: Barracuda on March 28, 2008, 01:25:18 AM
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WESTON, Wis. - Police are investigating an 11-year-old girl's death from an undiagnosed, treatable form of diabetes after her parents chose to pray for her rather than take her to a doctor.
An autopsy showed Madeline Neumann died Sunday of diabetic ketoacidosis, a condition that left too little insulin in her body, Everest Metro Police Chief Dan Vergin said.
She had probably been ill for about a month, suffering symptoms such as nausea, vomiting, excessive thirst, loss of appetite and weakness, the chief said Wednesday, noting that he expects to complete the investigation by Friday and forward the results to the district attorney.
The girl's mother, Leilani Neumann, said that she and her family believe in the Bible and that healing comes from God, but that they do not belong to an organized religion or faith, are not fanatics and have nothing against doctors.
She insisted her youngest child, a wiry girl known to wear her straight brown hair in a ponytail, was in good health until recently.
"We just noticed a tiredness within the past two weeks," she said Wednesday. "And then just the day before and that day (she died), it suddenly just went to a more serious situation. We stayed fast in prayer then. We believed that she would recover. We saw signs that to us, it looked like she was recovering."
Her daughter — who hadn't seen a doctor since she got some shots as a 3-year-old, according to Vergin — had no fever and there was warmth in her body, she said.
The girl's father, Dale Neumann, a former police officer, said he started CPR "as soon as the breath of life left" his daughter's body.
Family members elsewhere called authorities to seek help for the girl.
"My sister-in-law, she's very religious, she believes in faith instead of doctors ...," the girl's aunt told a sheriff's dispatcher Sunday afternoon in a call from California. "And she called my mother-in-law today ... and she explained to us that she believes her daughter's in a coma now and she's relying on faith."
The dispatcher got more information from the caller and asked whether an ambulance should be sent.
"Please," the woman replied. "I mean, she's refusing. She's going to fight it. ... We've been trying to get her to take her to the hospital for a week, a few days now."
The aunt called back with more information on the family's location, emergency logs show. Family friends also made a 911 call from the home. Police and paramedics arrived within minutes and immediately called for an ambulance that took her to a hospital.
But less than an hour after authorities reached the home, Madeline — a bright student who left public school for home schooling this semester — was declared dead.
She is survived by her parents and three older siblings.
"We are remaining strong for our children," Leilani Neumann said. "Only our faith in God is giving us strength at this time."
The Neumanns said they moved from California to a modern, middle-class home in woodsy Weston, just outside Wassau in central Wisconsin, about two years ago to open a coffee shop and be closer to other relatives. A basketball hoop is set up in the driveway.
Leilani Neumann said she and her husband are not worried about the investigation because "our lives are in God's hands. We know we did not do anything criminal. We know we did the best for our daughter we knew how to do."
All religious freaks should put their health and lives in the hands of God. Lets see how much their God truly cares
Its tragic that the kid paid for her parents stupidity.
I'm sure its all part of gods divine plan ::)
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only in the USA
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All religious freaks should put their health and lives in the hands of God. Lets see how much their God truly cares
Its tragic that the kid paid for her parents stupidity.
I'm sure its all part of gods divine plan ::)
agreed, natural selection would take care of it all.
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That felt good.
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The girl's father, Dale Neumann, a former police officer, said he started CPR "as soon as the breath of life left" his daughter's body.
why ? wasn't that in direct conflict of his wife's beliefs ?
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wow.
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All religious freaks should put their health and lives in the hands of God. Lets see how much their God truly cares
Its tragic that the kid paid for her parents stupidity.
I'm sure its all part of gods divine plan ::)
I agree that the parents were stupid, backward, ignorant and bilnded, but that doesn't mean that having religious faith is the sole arbitor of stupidity in a person. There are plenty of stupid Atheists, too.
I, and the majority of Christians, believe that God does heal, but he gave us intelligence, science and medical advances as tools to use to preserve, prolong and improve life. That this girl's parents chose to remain in the Middle Ages should not be an indictment of the intelligence of Christians as a whole.
You can have your opinion about our beliefs, but to believe that this incident speaks for all of us is the height of ignorant hubris.
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the religious institutions are on the bottom of the dirt.
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I agree that the parents were stupid, backward, ignorant and bilnded, but that doesn't mean that having religious faith is the sole arbitor of stupidity in a person. There are plenty of stupid Atheists, too.
I, and the majority of Christians, believe that God does heal, but he gave us intelligence, science and medical advances as tools to use to preserve, prolong and improve life. That this girl's parents chose to remain in the Middle Ages should not be an indictment of the intelligence of Christians as a whole.
You can have your opinion about our beliefs, but to believe that this incident speaks for all of us is the height of ignorant hubris.
I hear you but to believe that an invisible guy in the sky can help cure their girl while the same invisible all knowing guy did FUCK all when the Germans killed over 40 Million people is dumper than a second coat of paint.
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Please, people, give God a break! He just has a different sense of time then we do. He's just been on a lunch break for the past two milleniums.
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i always find it strange that an intelligent person with a clear view on things can be religious what do you think Stark?
someone posted a clip here with multiple great persons in our history who were atheists but thats kind of lame because there where as much great religious people probably.
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Please, people, give God a break! He just has a different sense of time then we do. He's just been on a lunch break for the past two milleniums.
you laugh at god all you want, you know science has not even explained 5% of the mysteries of the universe. fyi there are billions of planets out there and this is but one, the only logical explaination is a god.
death is but a passage all life must pass. dont feel sad for dead for they might be in greater peace than you know. all life ends in death, the purpose of life is death. why? i dunno. you cannot beat your maker aka god with anything your mind can conceive my friends. just like a dog does not understand what is outside his doggy world, we humans canot fathom outside our realms too
look at your us dollar bill "in god we trust" ;)
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you laugh at god all you want, you know science has not even explained 5% of the mysteries of the universe. fyi there are billions of planets out there and this is but one, the only logical explaination is a god.
death is but a passage all life must pass. dont feel sad for dead for they might be in greater peace than you know. all life ends in death, the purpose of life is death. why? i dunno. you cannot beat your maker aka god with anything your mind can conceive my friends. just like a dog does not understand what is outside his doggy world, we humans canot fathom outside our realms too
look at your us dollar bill "in god we trust" ;)
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH! Here I was thinking today was April 1st!
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I hear you but to believe that an invisible guy in the sky can help cure their girl while the same invisible all knowing guy did FUCK all when the Germans killed over 40 Million people is dumper than a second coat of paint.
he gives us all free will
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What does this topic have to do with bodybuilding gossip or opinions? ???
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=207732.0
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What does this topic have to do with bodybuilding gossip or opinions? ???
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=207732.0
easy there jockrider. we will continue posting oiled up men in thongs when we are finished mkay?
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you laugh at god all you want, you know science has not even explained 5% of the mysteries of the universe. fyi there are billions of planets out there and this is but one, the only logical explaination is a god.
death is but a passage all life must pass. dont feel sad for dead for they might be in greater peace than you know. all life ends in death, the purpose of life is death. why? i dunno. you cannot beat your maker aka god with anything your mind can conceive my friends. just like a dog does not understand what is outside his doggy world, we humans canot fathom outside our realms too
look at your us dollar bill "in god we trust" ;)
in the unknown we trust it seems.
"he only logical explaination is a god" gtfo. plz.
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easy there jockrider. we will continue posting oiled up men in thongs when we are finished mkay?
hahahhahahahaah ;D
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I agree that the parents were stupid, backward, ignorant and bilnded, but that doesn't mean that having religious faith is the sole arbitor of stupidity in a person. There are plenty of stupid Atheists, too.
I, and the majority of Christians, believe that God does heal, but he gave us intelligence, science and medical advances as tools to use to preserve, prolong and improve life. That this girl's parents chose to remain in the Middle Ages should not be an indictment of the intelligence of Christians as a whole.
You can have your opinion about our beliefs, but to believe that this incident speaks for all of us is the height of ignorant hubris.
well said... some religious people are just too plain stupid
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I agree that the parents were stupid, backward, ignorant and bilnded, but that doesn't mean that having religious faith is the sole arbitor of stupidity in a person. There are plenty of stupid Atheists, too.
I, and the majority of Christians, believe that God does heal, but he gave us intelligence, science and medical advances as tools to use to preserve, prolong and improve life. That this girl's parents chose to remain in the Middle Ages should not be an indictment of the intelligence of Christians as a whole.
You can have your opinion about our beliefs, but to believe that this incident speaks for all of us is the height of ignorant hubris.
Well, I'd say to you the same thing I'd say to all the self-proclaimed "moderate muslims"... until you can get the more extreme among you to stop doing stupid shit on a regular basis, you will all be painted with the same brush.
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stupid is as stupid does
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Well, I'd say to you the same thing I'd say to all the self-proclaimed "moderate muslims"... until you can get the more extreme among you to stop doing stupid shit on a regular basis, you will all be painted with the same brush.
Dude, you can paint me with whatever brush you like. It doesn't mean you're right.
I know who I am and what's in my heart. I am content in my beliefs and secure in the condition of my soul.
If that makes me "ignorant and backward", so be it.
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It's not like millions of christians use this same philosophy instead of checking in at the hospital. This is first report ever like this.
On the other hand, you have millions of 'moderate muslims' doing extreme things all the time for many years.
Can't always paint with the same brush.
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Thats how we roll in wisconsin bitches!
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treatable form of diabetes?? ::) Where is the link.
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treatable form of diabetes?? ::) Where is the link.
Do you know a form of Diabetes mellitus that is resistant to treatment? I'd be interested in this discovery.
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prayer, oh brother
i learned that doesn't work when i was 5 or 6.
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you laugh at god all you want, you know science has not even explained 5% of the mysteries of the universe. fyi there are billions of planets out there and this is but one, the only logical explaination is a god.
look at your us dollar bill "in god we trust" ;)
Science hasnt explained...yeah right. Just because it hasnt been "discovered" doesnt automatically mean god exists. How stupid is that?. Back then tornados and natural disasters were considered unfathomable and acts of god. Everytime something cant be explained lets paint it with the god brush. Lets not try to find out anything or cure anything. After all god will handle it all, right primitive?
Explain this - why are millions of innocent kids and adults dying of starvation/wars/disease etc? What was their crime other than being born in the wrong region of the world? How about the holocaust? Where's gods compassion there? Oh wait- its all gods will right? How about those who profit from human misery?- why is god allowing these individuals to live a life of luxury. The ways of god are beyond mortal understanding ::)
Science doesnt explain each and everything because there is so much out there waiting to be discovered. Somethings are proven and then later disproven as new evidence comes up. Science admits when it makes mistakes or lacks the understanding on certain subjects and is always striving to learn by asking questions. Its a continual process and its not perfect by any means - unlike religious primitives who simply suspend all common sense because of some psychobabble written centuries ago with the aim of controlling the masses.
Science comes from tangible evidence not from "magic" books written for weak willed sheep.
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Maybe these stupid parents knew what the terms "nosocomial infection" or "iatrogenic" means....
morons ::)
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Explain this - why are millions of innocent kids and adults dying of starvation/wars/disease etc? What was their crime other than being born in the wrong region of the world? How about the holocaust? Where's gods compassion there? Oh wait- its all gods will right? How about those who profit from human misery?- why is god allowing these individuals to live a life of luxury. The ways of god are beyond mortal understanding ::)
It's called "free will". God gives free will to good men and evil alike. Don't blame God for the evil that is perpetrated by humanity with humanity as the victim.
So, now that I've done some painting with my "God brush", I'll wait to be called a 'weak-willed sheep'.
whatever it is that has you so angry at God isn't something that God did. Look at yourself and your fellow man.
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It's called "free will". God gives free will to good men and evil alike. Don't blame God for the evil that is perpetrated by humanity with humanity as the victim.
So, now that I've done some painting with my "God brush", I'll wait to be called a 'weak-willed sheep'.
whatever it is that has you so angry at God isn't something that God did. Look at yourself and your fellow man.
It's really pathetic when you have to make shit up to justify your beliefs. ::) First of all, even if god did exist, then how could you possibly know what he would and wouldn't do? You don't know, yet like other religious people you just make shit up. "Omg, I know god would do this, but wouldn't do that" ::)
Those parents should be thrown in prison.
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It's called "free will". God gives free will to good men and evil alike. Don't blame God for the evil that is perpetrated by humanity with humanity as the victim.
So, now that I've done some painting with my "God brush", I'll wait to be called a 'weak-willed sheep'.
whatever it is that has you so angry at God isn't something that God did. Look at yourself and your fellow man.
How can I be angry at something that doesnt exist??
You sidestepped the question - why did god allow innocents to be slaugtered/die of starvation etc? Surely with his "magic power" he could have saved them or is it that he doesnt care.
How about those kids abused by HIS own priests in HIS own house? No God interceded to prevent that. Why bother right? After all its a human affair.
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It's really pathetic when you have to make shit up to justify your beliefs. ::) First of all, even if god did exist, then how could you possibly know what he would and wouldn't do? You don't know, yet like other religious people you just make shit up. "Omg, I know god would do this, but wouldn't do that" ::)
Those parents should be thrown in prison.
Very good point CJ. All the religious freaks claim to have an inside track on gods mind despite lack of tangible evidence other than that in a "magic" book written by primitives for primitives.
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It's really pathetic when you have to make shit up to justify your beliefs. ::) First of all, even if god did exist, then how could you possibly know what he would and wouldn't do? You don't know, yet like other religious people you just make shit up. "Omg, I know god would do this, but wouldn't do that" ::)
Those parents should be thrown in prison.
Because I beieve the Bible to be historical fact.
How do you know that Lincoln was assassinated? Because somebody wrote it down. How does tha passage of 2000 years vs. 150 make history any less relevant?
And I agree the parents are idiots. I said that in my first post.
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How can I be angry at something that doesnt exist??
You sidestepped the question - why did god allow innocents to be slaugtered/die of starvation etc? Surely with his "magic power" he could have saved them or is it that he doesnt care.
How about those kids abused by HIS own priests in HIS own house? No God interceded to prevent that. Why bother right? After all its a human affair.
I sidestepped nothing.
Free will.
Period.
God established the rules of the natural world. Just because a piece of crap decides to do something bad, doesn't mean God is obligated to keep you from harm.
I'm sorry if that answer isn't good enough for you.
Let's say, just for the sake of argument, that I'm right. What will you say to God? Seriously.
Because if I'm wrong, if God and Heaven are a fairy tale and when I die, that's all she wrote, then I've missed out on nothing. But if I'm right...
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Hey all god has to do to prove his existence is show up - no water stains or mumblings of delusional priests. No vague bullshit.
I'm not going to live my life based on "what if" or "just in case"
Free-Will?? So god decided that it was none of his business? How do you know that god established natures rules? Because the bible written by man says so?
If god is not obligated to keep you from harm- why pray? If its gods will he's going to do what he wants to anyway. Why bother praying and asking for this and that? .
What will I say to god? - I'll deal with that when I meet this invisible man who lives in the sky. One thing you can count on is that I'll be on my feet and not on my knees and will be looking at this magic man right in the eyes. After all God gave me freewill right?
What are you going to do if God happens to be Muslim and not christian?
What if you were backing the wrong god? What if the Christian god( for arguements sake) is Satan? What then Mr "Just in case"?
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Because I beieve the Bible to be historical fact.
How do you know that Lincoln was assassinated? Because somebody wrote it down. How does tha passage of 2000 years vs. 150 make history any less relevant?
What if new evidence was found that Lincoln was not assasinated and that was just a double? Would you stick to the old belief?
History has a number of new findings that have led to a number of revisions. Are you going to cling to the old facts because that was what you learnt as a child or accept the new findings?
Incidentally - Several people have actually seen Lincoln, talked to him and can describe him during his existence. How many people have actually seen god and can agree on what he looks like? It seems like god sees fit to talk to select individuals than to everyone he has created. He should send in his cellphone for repair. ;D
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The day we'll get rid of religion for good will be a good day.
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Do you know a form of Diabetes mellitus that is resistant to treatment? I'd be interested in this discovery.
No i meant all types of diabetes are treatable. My dad is type 2 BTW.
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The day we'll get rid of religion for good will be a good day.
AMEN to that...heh heh.
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The parents are stupid and should / could very well go to jail for that for neglecting a child medicine and care.
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AMEN to that...heh heh.
Extremely regious people should go and register at http://ogrishforum.com/ and face reality for once in their lives.
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Extremely regious people should go and register at http://ogrishforum.com/ and face reality for once in their lives.
They should register for Magic: the gathering and WOW since they enjoy fantasy so much.
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Dude, you can paint me with whatever brush you like. It doesn't mean you're right.
I know who I am and what's in my heart. I am content in my beliefs and secure in the condition of my soul.
If that makes me "ignorant and backward", so be it.
I am right about how you will be perceived by the bulk of the public. You're the one arguing that incidents like these are not representative of christian ignorance. If public perception of "christians" doesn't matter to you, that's fine, but then why publicly try to make the argument then?
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Extremely regious people should go and register at http://ogrishforum.com/ and face reality for once in their lives.
Or www.infidels.org
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The day we'll get rid of religion for good will be a good day.
Amen!
I really couldn't give a shit what people believe or how they spend their Sunday mornings, but unfortunately as is often the case with these fucktards, their delusional beliefs lead to delusional actions which cause society a great deal of harm on balance.
Religion is a disease that needs to go the way of the dodo bird. What christians fail to realize is that they are atheists too... at least in regard to 9,999 of the 10,000 or so gods that men have worshiped since the dawn of time. The thinking among us simply choose to go one god further.
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I sidestepped nothing.
Free will.
Period.
God established the rules of the natural world. Just because a piece of crap decides to do something bad, doesn't mean God is obligated to keep you from harm.
I'm sorry if that answer isn't good enough for you.
Let's say, just for the sake of argument, that I'm right. What will you say to God? Seriously.
Because if I'm wrong, if God and Heaven are a fairy tale and when I die, that's all she wrote, then I've missed out on nothing. But if I'm right...
So you're saying God doesn't care about anyone.
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So you're saying God doesn't care about anyone.
If he cared, there wouldn't be millions of people dying every year from war, aids etc.
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Because I beieve the Bible to be historical fact.
How do you know that Lincoln was assassinated? Because somebody wrote it down. How does tha passage of 2000 years vs. 150 make history any less relevant?
And I agree the parents are idiots. I said that in my first post.
The Bible was written hundreds of years after Jebus' death. It's a collection of recycled fairytales of the near east.
Just compare the Old Testament tale of the great flood with the Babylonian epic of Gilgamesh.. Only difference is that Giglamesh predates the old testament tale by a few hundred years. ::) Scared and unadvanced people blaming natural disasters on some supernatural entity makes perfect sense.
If believing in god makes you happy, then you have that right. However, please don't say that this poor girl's parents did the right thing. They should be thrown in prison for negligence.
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I agree that the parents were stupid, backward, ignorant and bilnded, but that doesn't mean that having religious faith is the sole arbitor of stupidity in a person. There are plenty of stupid Atheists, too.
I, and the majority of Christians, believe that God does heal, but he gave us intelligence, science and medical advances as tools to use to preserve, prolong and improve life. That this girl's parents chose to remain in the Middle Ages should not be an indictment of the intelligence of Christians as a whole.
You can have your opinion about our beliefs, but to believe that this incident speaks for all of us is the height of ignorant hubris.
I AGREE 100% I BELIEVE THAT GOD WANTS US TO HELP OURSELVES. IN OTHER WORDS GO TO THE DOCTOR.. I ALSO BELIEVES HE HEALS
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If believing in god makes you happy, then you have that right. However, please don't say that this poor girl's parents did the right thing. They should be thrown in prison for negligence.
Are you blind or just the possessor of incredible selective vision?
For the umpteenth time in this thread:
THE GIRL'S PARENTS ARE BACKWARD IDIOTS AND DID THE WRONG THING!!!
Goatboy & Barracuda:
I can't change your mind and you can't change mine. I have my faith, my belief in things unseen. I know that I feel God in my life every day and if that makes me an object of ridicule, so be it. I can deal with it.
I respect your right to believe what you want, but it is incredibly shallow and conceited to act as though I am one of the great ignorant unwashed because I believe in a God that loves me and do not believe that life is a cosmic accident.
Let's just agree to disagree and leave it at that. I just feel really sorry for you guys is all.
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Are you blind or just the possessor of incredible selective vision?
For the umpteenth time in this thread:
THE GIRL'S PARENTS ARE BACKWARD IDIOTS AND DID THE WRONG THING!!!
Goatboy & Barracuda:
I can't change your mind and you can't change mine. I have my faith, my belief in things unseen. I know that I feel God in my life every day and if that makes me an object of ridicule, so be it. I can deal with it.
I respect your right to believe what you want, but it is incredibly shallow and conceited to act as though I am one of the great ignorant unwashed because I believe in a God that loves me and do not believe that life is a cosmic accident.
Let's just agree to disagree and leave it at that. I just feel really sorry for you guys is all.
Why should we go to a doctor if prayers work?
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Why should we go to a doctor if prayers work?
God knows all. I know this because of my exponential lack of knowledge.
If I'm this stupid, there must be a man in the sky that is incredibly smart. It is the only logical answer.