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Getbig Misc Discussion Boards => Religious Debates & Threads => Topic started by: Hustle Man on May 05, 2008, 01:48:37 PM
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...worry sooo much about what Christians believe?
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...worry sooo much about what Christians believe?
I don't think they worry about it. I think they are curious as to why a person can believe what they believe in the face of contradiction, modern science and what they perceive is common sense.
Besides, a forum is a great place to talk religion and debate it versus risking violating the mild social taboo of never debating politics, religion and economics.
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I think for at least some they are still searching and this is one way to avoid completely closing the door on their faith, whether that faith has been lost or not yet found.
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...worry sooo much about what Christians believe?
99.9% of our elected US representatives are christians. Every single US president has been a christian. Christians are advocating an all out attack on the US education system so that it may reflect a Christian perspective.
Most importantly though, Christians believe they know the Truth. When a person is steeped so far in belief that he/she cannot see the other side(s) of an argument, the results can be ugly:
The Clan, The Crusades, The Inquisition, Falwell & Robertson....the list goes on.
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elected officials have to be Christians or they wont get voted in.
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...worry sooo much about what Christians believe?
I really wouldn't mind creationist stupidity if they kept it in the churches, but when they try to force into the curriculum in order to sabotage the science education of children and make them stupid and scientifically illiterate, then that's when I start worrying :)
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99.9% of our elected US representatives are christians. Every single US president has been a christian. Christians are advocating an all out attack on the US education system so that it may reflect a Christian perspective.
Most importantly though, Christians believe they know the Truth. When a person is steeped so far in belief that he/she cannot see the other side(s) of an argument, the results can be ugly:
The Clan, The Crusades, The Inquisition, Falwell & Robertson....the list goes on.
Don't forget that kook who locked himself in a tower until he got 10 million. Was it Oral Roberts?
Also don't forget the millions or billions in business made from the commercialization of religion.
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Christians are advocating an all out attack on the US education system so that it may reflect a Christian perspective.
Lumping everybody together, aren't we?
Genesis is not a science book. Genesis is not a biology book.
Tell that to your friends at "Answers in Genesis"...
I don't think that you need to worry about "my friends" at Answers in Genesis.
Answers in Genesis has consistently stated that it would be counterproductive for public schools to force science instructors to teach creation or ID. Since most science teachers are evolutionists, they would teach creation or ID poorly—and the effort to introduce counters to evolution would generally backfire. ;D
Most importantly though, Christians believe they know the Truth. When a person is steeped so far in belief that he/she cannot see the other side(s) of an argument, the results can be ugly:
The Clan, The Crusades, The Inquisition, Falwell & Robertson....the list goes on.
"Scientists also often claim that religion rarely inculcates virtue. The history of religion is, after all, the history of bloodshed. (It is a law of nature that scientists must bring up the Crusades within five minutes of mention of religion.) In any case, the argument goes, atheists are as ethical as any believer, and religion needn’t be kept about for purely moral reasons. But Gould again argues that this claim misses the historical fact that the Church was a secular and not merely religious institution. When the Church was a powerful state, it, not surprisingly, acted like a powerful state. It is also worth noting (and Gould doesn’t) that when avowedly atheist governments called the shots their ethical track record was less than awe-inspiring. Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot are not, so far as I know, in line for sainthood. The point isn’t that godless commies are bad. The point is that it is dishonest to pretend that the Crusades count against theism but that Stalin doesn’t count against atheism."
- H. Allen Orr
Gould on God Can religion and science be happily reconciled? in the Boston Review
http://bostonreview.net/BR24.5/orr.html
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Lumping everybody together, aren't we?
Sort of.
Tell that to your friends at "Answers in Genesis"...
"Scientists also often claim that religion rarely inculcates virtue. The history of religion is, after all, the history of bloodshed. (It is a law of nature that scientists must bring up the Crusades within five minutes of mention of religion.) In any case, the argument goes, atheists are as ethical as any believer, and religion needn’t be kept about for purely moral reasons. But Gould again argues that this claim misses the historical fact that the Church was a secular and not merely religious institution. When the Church was a powerful state, it, not surprisingly, acted like a powerful state. It is also worth noting (and Gould doesn’t) that when avowedly atheist governments called the shots their ethical track record was less than awe-inspiring. Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot are not, so far as I know, in line for sainthood. The point isn’t that godless commies are bad. The point is that it is dishonest to pretend that the Crusades count against theism but that Stalin doesn’t count against atheism."
- H. Allen Orr
Gould on God Can religion and science be happily reconciled? in the Boston Review
http://bostonreview.net/BR24.5/orr.html
How about the Tens of thousands of deaths wrought by Christian president GW Bush?
Does that ring a more contemporary bell for you?
You know Bush, this guy:
Bush said he did not remember asking the question of his father, former president George H.W. Bush, who fought Iraq in the 1991 Persian Gulf War. But, he added that the two had discussed developments in Iraq.
"You know he is the wrong father to appeal to in terms of strength. There is a higher father that I appeal to," Bush said.
So I guess it was really the christian God (prince of peace) ordering Bush to mutilate the children, women and men of Iraq.
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Sort of.
That's what I thought. ;D
How about the Tens of thousands of deaths wrought by Christian president GW Bush?
Does that ring a more contemporary bell for you?
You know Bush, this guy:
Bush said he did not remember asking the question of his father, former president George H.W. Bush, who fought Iraq in the 1991 Persian Gulf War. But, he added that the two had discussed developments in Iraq.
"You know he is the wrong father to appeal to in terms of strength. There is a higher father that I appeal to," Bush said.
So I guess it was really the christian God (prince of peace) ordering Bush to mutilate the children, women and men of Iraq.
You are completely missing H. Allen Orr's and Stephen Jay Gould's point. We can talk numbers all day long, but that's not the point:
WWI(1914 - 1918): 19,772,701
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I_casualties#References
WWII(1930s – 1945): 62,000,000
- World War II: Combatants and Casualties (1937 — 1945). Retrieved on 2007-04-20.
- Source List and Detailed Death Tolls for the Twentieth Century Hemoclysm. Retrieved on 2007-04-20.
- World War II Fatalities. Retrieved on 2007-04-20.
Great Leap Forward(1958 - 1960): 43,000,000
- Peng Xizhe (彭希哲), "Demographic Consequences of the Great Leap Forward in China's Provinces," Population and Development Review 13, no. 4 (1987), 639-70.
Great Purge(1937 -1938): 1,200,000
- Soviet Repression Statistics: Some Comments by Historian Michael Ellman, 2002
Pol Pot's agrarian collectivization (1975 -1979): 1,700,000
- Sophal Ear (May 1995). The Khmer Rouge Canon 1975-1979: The Standard Total Academic View on Cambodia. Retrieved on 2007-11-02.In Chapter 1: Introduction
- The Cambodian Genocide Program. Retrieved on 2007-11-02.
That's what? 127,672,701 casualties for just these few, that's not counting the emotional, cultural, economic trauma, etc. Keep in mind that the above did not happen in ancient times. It was done by "modern civilized people", moved by secular ideologies.
Deedee,
You are missing the point for me bringing this up. OzmO pointed out that there is harm in believing that the OT is the word of God because that makes us "more" vulnerable to manipulations from politicians. He said that there is "more potential" for believers in the OT to be manipulated into killing.
But as you can see, anybody whether secular or religious has as much potential to be manipulated or is just as vulnerable to be manipulated into killing. People can be manipulated by ideals, whether they believe in the OT or not, whether those ideals are secular or religious. To say that if nobody today believed in the OT is going to make people less vulnerable to such manipulations is naive.
And I did not know that the Iraq war was a religious war fought in the name of God. I know you don't really believe that. Isn't the Iraq war about oil, wealth and power, fought in the name of "National Security"? Anyway, what do I know. I'm Venezuelan. :)
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I don't think they worry about it. I think they are curious as to why a person can believe what they believe in the face of contradiction, modern science and what they perceive is common sense.
Besides, a forum is a great place to talk religion and debate it versus risking violating the mild social taboo of never debating politics, religion and economics.
That sums it up well.
The ideas behind Christianity are farcical and ridiculous; I get why people 'believe': for emotional reasons, comfort, consolation etc., but not being wired that way I really don't get it on a certain level. If I did I would believe in the existence of the D&D universe.
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99.9% of our elected US representatives are christians. Every single US president has been a christian. Christians are advocating an all out attack on the US education system so that it may reflect a Christian perspective.
Most importantly though, Christians believe they know the Truth. When a person is steeped so far in belief that he/she cannot see the other side(s) of an argument, the results can be ugly:
The Clan, The Crusades, The Inquisition, Falwell & Robertson....the list goes on.
99.9% of our elected US representatives are christians.
- This is a Christian Nation right?
Every single US president has been a Christian
- Of course see pt #1
Christians are advocating an all out attack on the US education system so that it may reflect a Christian perspective.
- Again the nation was founded on Christian values and Christian laws.
Most importantly though, Christians believe they know the Truth.
- Correction, our truth is based on the Canon of Scripture (the 66 books of the bible) we stand firm on the Canon of scripture
John 8:31-32
31 Jesus told the people who had faith in him, "If you hold to my teaching, you truly are my disciples.
32 You will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."
When a person is steeped so far in belief that he/she cannot see the other side(s) of an argument, the results can be ugly:
You are confusing true discipleship with false teaching, don't get it twisted!
The Clan = False teaching in the name of Christ and ignorantly serving Satan.
The Crusades = Incorrect motivation
The Crusades originally had the goal of recapturing Jerusalem and the Holy Land from Muslim rule and were originally launched in response to a call from the Eastern Orthodox Byzantine Empire for help against the expansion of the Muslim Seljuk Turks into Anatolia.
The Inquisition = Totally contrary to the teachings of Christ Jesus
Falwell/ Robertson = Misguided and self righteous leaders
HM
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That sums it up well.
The ideas behind Christianity are farcical and ridiculous; I get why people 'believe': for emotional reasons, comfort, consolation etc., but not being wired that way I really don't get it on a certain level. If I did I would believe in the existence of the D&D universe.
You don't get it because you do not have the HOLY SPIRIT, this is understandable!
1 Corinthians 1:18-19
18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."
HM
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You don't get it because you do not have the HOLY SPIRIT, this is understandable!
1 Corinthians 1:18-19
18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."
HM
Please provide measurable evidence for the Holy Spirit. Thank you.
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Some of our founding fathers i heard were athiests....The popular idea that our country was founded on christianity supposedly is a twentieth century construct....
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I find it highly unlikely personally, to think our founding fathers would leave one nation that persecuted their population backed by religion, to ship over to america, and start another nation based on religion...Just using common sense, no facts to back that up....
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...worry sooo much about what Christians believe?
The same could be said about Christians.
Christians went into Africa to "rescue" the "savages" who already had their spiritual religions.
Or to this day tries to preach the Gospel of Jesus to non-believers.
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Some of our founding fathers i heard were athiests....The popular idea that our country was founded on christianity supposedly is a twentieth century construct....
Not athiests, but deists, which was the atheism of the day. Many of the founders were quite scornful and condescending towards Christianity. Observe Jefferson:
I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent.
The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills.
In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.
Among the sayings and discourses imputed to him [Jesus] by his biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others again of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism, and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being.
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
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That sums it up well.
The ideas behind Christianity are farcical and ridiculous; I get why people 'believe': for emotional reasons, comfort, consolation etc., but not being wired that way I really don't get it on a certain level. If I did I would believe in the existence of the D&D universe.
I wonder how many hit points and strength Arnold had at his peak? ;D
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Falwell/ Robertson = Misguided and self righteous leaders
HM
Good call HM. :)
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That's what I thought. ;D
I'm also certain there are many many good muslims out there. Unfortunately it's the extremist nuts that drag down the group. Same goes for the Christians. I could reference that in my comments, but it's easier to refer to christians rather than christian extremist, fundamentalist, militant etc.
You are completely missing H. Allen Orr's and Stephen Jay Gould's point. We can talk numbers all day long, but that's not the point:
I wasn't aware that all non-christians are automatically Atheists. I'm not. And I am not a Christian.
Einstein discussed the NECESSITY of religion. He also discussed how religion must work with science. That, I agree with.
And I did not know that the Iraq war was a religious war fought in the name of God. I know you don't really believe that. Isn't the Iraq war about oil, wealth and power, fought in the name of "National Security"? Anyway, what do I know. I'm Venezuelan. :)
"I KNEW that my God was bigger than his," Lieutenant General William G. Boykin said of his Muslim opponent. "I knew that my God was a real God, and his was an idol."
"This is a new kind of -- a new kind of evil. And we understand. And the American people are beginning to understand. This crusade, this war on terrorism is going to take a while."
--Pres. GW Bush
It certainly looks like our leaders are painting the Iraq invasion in religious terminology, doesn't it?
The Iraq war was given literally a 100 justifications. It just so happens that our political leaders use one as a religious justification.
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I'm also certain there are many many good muslims out there. Unfortunately it's the extremist nuts that drag down the group. Same goes for the Christians. I could reference that in my comments, but it's easier to refer to christians rather than christian extremist, fundamentalist, militant etc.
I wasn't aware that all non-christians are automatically Atheists. I'm not. And I am not a Christian.
Einstein discussed the NECESSITY of religion. He also discussed how religion must work with science. That, I agree with.
"I KNEW that my God was bigger than his," Lieutenant General William G. Boykin said of his Muslim opponent. "I knew that my God was a real God, and his was an idol."
"This is a new kind of -- a new kind of evil. And we understand. And the American people are beginning to understand. This crusade, this war on terrorism is going to take a while."
--Pres. GW Bush
It certainly looks like our leaders are painting the Iraq invasion in religious terminology, doesn't it?
The Iraq war was given literally a 100 justifications. It just so happens that our political leaders use one as a religious justification.
Because we are unfortunately stuck with religion as poorly evolved and stupid primates?
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The same could be said about Christians.
Christians went into Africa to "rescue" the "savages" who already had their spiritual religions.
Or to this day tries to preach the Gospel of Jesus to non-believers.
Non-believers are not promoting grace, peace and love in this day and age or in the past!
Non-believers mock and attack our belief.
Non-believers do not promote the peace, love, grace and mercy found in Christ!
Actually non-believers are the antithesis of the Gospel of Christ.
The gospel (Good News) of Christ Jesus, is that we (believers) do not have to feel guilty anymore, we do not have to pay for our sins; Jesus has already paid the price and we have faith in the finished work on the cross. THAT IS THE GOOD NEWS (Gospel)
You can not deny/dispute the motivation of the Christian missionary charge or its impact to the world over the past century. It is true in times past that the religious missionary M.O. (mainly Catholicism) was not necessarily motivated by the truth of Rom 1
it was some what selfish and prideful but we (present day believers) are better equipped to relay or convey the truth in Christ.
Those so called savages were worshipping the creation not the creator.
The missionaries were trying to correct improper worship of the God they (the so called savages) already knew existed.
See: Romans 1:18-32
HM
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Because we are unfortunately stuck with religion as poorly evolved and stupid primates?
Unfortunately, it seems all we know in this country are the dogmatic aspects of religion. Einstein hated that.
"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."
"The religious geniuses of all ages have been distinguished by this kind of religious feeling, which knows no dogma and no God conceived in man's image; so that there can be no church whose central teachings are based on it. Hence it is precisely among the heretics of every age that we find men who were filled with this highest kind of religious feeling and were in many cases regarded by their contemporaries as atheists, sometimes also as saints. Looked at in this light, men like Democritus, Francis of Assisi, and Spinoza are closely akin to one another.
How can cosmic religious feeling be communicated from one person to another, if it can give rise to no definite notion of a God and no theology? In my view, it is the most important function of art and science to awaken this feeling and keep it alive in those who are receptive to it. "
--Einstein
I can't argue with Einstein on that b/c I agree. What I can argue with is all the nutbag know-it-all religious extremists that think that their nutty ideas are really being conspired against by the Pro-Satan Science establishment.
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...I wasn't aware that all non-christians are automatically Atheists. I'm not. And I am not a Christian.
If you do not believe in Christ you are not a Christian therefore you do not believe in the God of the OT/NT so you might as well be called an atheist.
No arguement there.
HM
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- This is a Christian Nation right? - Of course see pt #1 - Again the nation was founded on Christian values and Christian laws.
This country was also founded on slavery.
Correction, our truth is based on the Canon of Scripture (the 66 books of the bible) we stand firm on the Canon of scripture
John 8:31-32
31 Jesus told the people who had faith in him, "If you hold to my teaching, you truly are my disciples.
32 You will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."
You are confusing true discipleship with false teaching, don't get it twisted!
Oh, so the One True Faith can be twisted to meet the needs of the individual or group, right?
Would you agree with me that us earthbound folk interpret the writings in your Canon and that those writings are interpretations of feelings/ideas interpreted as divinely inspired?
Can we at least agree on that?
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...worry sooo much about what Christians believe?
I have found the opposite to be true. People who profess to be Christians spend an awful lot of time trying to police the behavior of others who do not share their beliefs.
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This country was also founded on slavery.
Oh, so the One True Faith can be twisted to meet the needs of the individual or group, right?
Would you agree with me that us earthbound folk interpret the writings in your Canon and that those writings are interpretations of feelings/ideas interpreted as divinely inspired?
Can we at least agree on that?
PT1
America was not FOUNDED on slavery!
Slavery helped to build this country, this is true.
Slavery was sin and carried out by sinful men whom twisted the word of God for their own selfish gain. But this does not mean that they were not Christians it simply means that their flesh got in the way which is true for all of us that go astray.
PT2
No I vehemently disagree.
Scripture interprets Scripture
God the Holy Spirits inspired the writings and they should not be left to human interpretation because God's ways are not our ways and God's thoughts are not our thoughts. We will misinterpret scripture everytime when we lean to our own sinful understanding/interpretation/s.
This is the problem, prideful man wants to put God in a box hence the reason we have so many different denominations, so many different beliefs and/or religeons.
There is only 1 God 1 creator 1 redeemer
As it is writting:
Ephesians 4:5-6
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all
This is what Christians believe and we do not dispute this.
Non-Christians dispute this as truth simply based on his/her on interpretation and observation.
The Bible (God's word) is clear you can not know Jesus as the Christ or as God if the Holy Spirit (God) does not teach you.
John 6:43-45
43 "Stop grumbling among yourselves," Jesus answered.
44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God. 'Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.
So it is clear to Christians why some have not believed yet!
It is clear why we do not agree on spiritual matters.
Simply put:
Non-Christians lean to their own understanding
Christians lean on the instruction of the Holy Spirit (God)
HM
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I have found the opposite to be true. People who profess to be Christians spend an awful lot of time trying to police the behavior of others who do not share their beliefs.
I would agree that this happens and I believe this is rooted in pride which is a result of the curse of sin.
My post was really directed at the audience on this board, forgive me I should have specified.
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Non-believers are not promoting grace, peace and love in this day and age or in the past!
Non-believers mock and attack our belief.
Non-believers do not promote the peace, love, grace and mercy found in Christ!
Actually non-believers are the antithesis of the Gospel of Christ.
The gospel (Good News) of Christ Jesus, is that we (believers) do not have to feel guilty anymore, we do not have to pay for our sins; Jesus has already paid the price and we have faith in the finished work on the cross. THAT IS THE GOOD NEWS (Gospel)
You can not deny/dispute the motivation of the Christian missionary charge or its impact to the world over the past century. It is true in times past that the religious missionary M.O. (mainly Catholicism) was not necessarily motivated by the truth of Rom 1
it was some what selfish and prideful but we (present day believers) are better equipped to relay or convey the truth in Christ.
Those so called savages were worshipping the creation not the creator.
The missionaries were trying to correct improper worship of the God they (the so called savages) already knew existed.
See: Romans 1:18-32
HM
Evidence, evidence, evidence?
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PT1
America was not FOUNDED on slavery!
Slavery helped to build this country, this is true.
Slavery was sin and carried out by sinful men whom twisted the word of God for their own selfish gain. But this does not mean that they were not Christians it simply means that their flesh got in the way which is true for all of us that go astray.
Oh, I disagree with you on this one. Free labor is quite an inducement. Slaves were categorized as a quasi-human in our US Constitution.
We are flesh and blood. This is where Christianity is decadent. It decays living in this life. The important place is the afterlife.
PT2
No I vehemently disagree.
Scripture interprets Scripture
God the Holy Spirits inspired the writings and they should not be left to human interpretation because God's ways are not our ways and God's thoughts are not our thoughts. We will misinterpret scripture everytime when we lean to our own sinful understanding/interpretation/s.
This is the problem, prideful man wants to put God in a box hence the reason we have so many different denominations, so many different beliefs and/or religeons.
There is only 1 God 1 creator 1 redeemer
Again, I respectfully disagree. Scripture was written by fallible men. Fallible men wrote the scripture. It did not write itself.
There is no ONE INTERPRETATION. That's a fantasy that is used as a club to force people to bend to one interpretation.
As it is writting:
Ephesians 4:5-6
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all
This is what Christians believe and we do not dispute this.
Non-Christians dispute this as truth simply based on his/her on interpretation and observation.
The Bible (God's word) is clear you can not know Jesus as the Christ or as God if the Holy Spirit (God) does not teach you.
John 6:43-45
43 "Stop grumbling among yourselves," Jesus answered.
44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God. 'Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.
So it is clear to Christians why some have not believed yet!
It is clear why we do not agree on spiritual matters.
Simply put:
Non-Christians lean to their own understanding
Christians lean on the instruction of the Holy Spirit (God)
HM
Your understanding of God the Father is born in the interpretive words of man, written in the Bible.
How do you know those inspirational words come from God and not some demon that's running the show?
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Evidence, evidence, evidence?
Which part do you want evidence for?
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...worry sooo much about what Christians believe?
Mostly they don't. This is a religious debate board, so it's all wide open for discussion, when people get bored of talking politics or weight training, or doing what they're supposed to be doing, i.e. working. ;)
If only Christian believers posted here it would just be one long devotionals thread. Before you got here, STella used to have a learning thread where all kinds of religions were discussed. Technically, we could can discuss astrology or wicca or any number of beliefs if we were so inclined.
btw... it makes me sad that you feel only Christian believers promote peace, love and grace. I think you're missing out on what many individuals who may not be like you, have to offer.
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Oh, I disagree with you on this one. Free labor is quite an inducement. Slaves were categorized as a quasi-human in our US Constitution.
We are flesh and blood. This is where Christianity is decadent. It decays living in this life. The important place is the afterlife.Again, I respectfully disagree. Scripture was written by fallible men. Fallible men wrote the scripture. It did not write itself.
There is no ONE INTERPRETATION. That's a fantasy that is used as a club to force people to bend to one interpretation.
As it is writting:Your understanding of God the Father is born in the interpretive words of man, written in the Bible.
How do you know those inspirational words come from God and not some demon that's running the show?
Oh, I disagree with you on this one. Free labor is quite an inducement. Slaves were categorized as a quasi-human in our US Constitution.
Are you referring to Article IV sec II? America was not founded on slavery!
We are flesh and blood.
I agree
This is where Christianity is decadent.It decays living in this life.
Please clarify how Christianity is decadent and decays living in this life?
BTW I disagree
True Christianity promotes living life and living it more abundantly
Giving of one's self
Honoring parents
Obeying authorities
Respect for another’s property
Marital fidelity
Abstinence (until marriage).
True Christianity promotes all that is good for mankind to prosper and live in peace with one another.
The Non Christian view point is rooted in
Selfish gain
Disrespect for authority
Disrespect for parents
Unfair treatment of women and children
Disrespect for another's property
The perpetuation of promiscuous behavior
Non-Christians teach take what you want and in many cases by any means necessary.
Again, I respectfully disagree. Scripture was written by fallible men. Fallible men wrote the scripture. It did not write itself.
No, God used fallible men to pen his inspired words, read
2 Timothy 3:16
The important place is the afterlife
This is the reward; the Christian’s life is lived to glorify God by serving Christ.
Tell me in what way is Christianity responsible for the following?
Killing and Raping women
War abroad
Discrimination
Racism
Money Laundering
Every conceivable vice in America (Porn, gambling, drugs and alcohol abuse)
This is humanism (Every dog for himself)
How can that be blamed on Christianity?
The way I see it Christianity is the way to break those chains, do you disagree?
See Non-Christians will never hold themselves accountable for the corruptions I have listed above.
Non-Christians love to deal in darkness and so do some Christians but there is a difference. Neither is right don't get me wrong but there is a difference in the motivation and after thought.
HM
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Mostly they don't. This is a religious debate board, so it's all wide open for discussion, when people get bored of talking politics or weight training, or doing what they're supposed to be doing, i.e. working. ;)
If only Christian believers posted here it would just be one long devotionals thread. Before you got here, STella used to have a learning thread where all kinds of religions were discussed. Technically, we could can discuss astrology or wicca or any number of beliefs if we were so inclined.
btw... it makes me sad that you feel only Christian believers promote peace, love and grace. I think you're missing out on what many individuals who may not be like you, have to offer.
Yes I understand what you meant about this being a discussion board and that is ok but I was responding to the name calling mocking etc that takes place on here.
it makes me sad that you feel only Christian believers promote peace, love and grace.
Again I was referring to the mockery present on this board by some who are non-believers I should have clarified but I was trying to keep my post short sorry.
I know that many folk promote peace, love and grace! I also know that the inverse of those 3 attributes have been perped by many so called Christians as well as non-believers. So I get what you are saying Deedee, please forgive me for mis-stating.
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Non-believers are not promoting grace, peace and love in this day and age or in the past!
How can you write something like that? I am an atheist, and I like to believe that I promote peace and love. How do you know I am not? And if you take a known Atheist like Bob Geldof, who promoted Live Aid and Band Aid that saved thousands of lives, compare him with a known Christian like George W Bush. How can you say that Bob Geldof is less of a promotor of peace and love than what George W Bush is?
Non-believers mock and attack our belief.
Some would say that Christians do the same with Atheists and Muslims, and other religions.
Non-believers do not promote the peace, love, grace and mercy found in Christ!
Actually non-believers are the antithesis of the Gospel of Christ.
Seems like it is you having trouble accepting that there are other beliefs than yours.
The gospel (Good News) of Christ Jesus, is that we (believers) do not have to feel guilty anymore, we do not have to pay for our sins; Jesus has already paid the price and we have faith in the finished work on the cross. THAT IS THE GOOD NEWS (Gospel)
So if child molester, a pedophile, even if it was Adolf Hitler or whoever, they will not have to pay the price for their "sins". As long as they believe?
You can not deny/dispute the motivation of the Christian missionary charge or its impact to the world over the past century. It is true in times past that the religious missionary M.O. (mainly Catholicism) was not necessarily motivated by the truth of Rom 1
it was some what selfish and prideful but we (present day believers) are better equipped to relay or convey the truth in Christ.
Why are you better equipped than Christians in the past?
Those so called savages were worshipping the creation not the creator.
The missionaries were trying to correct improper worship of the God they (the so called savages) already knew existed.
See: Romans 1:18-32
What gave the "missionaries" the right to intervene in the worshipping practices of these grown adults?
Why weren't their religion respected?
HM
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Are you referring to Article IV sec II? America was not founded on slavery!
Slavery was a foundational aspect of a large part of the US. It almost destroyed the union. So I disagree with your protest.
I agree
Please clarify how Christianity is decadent and decays living in this life?
Heaven is number one. Getting there is the task. Some imagined place takes precedent over the real world.
BTW I disagree
True Christianity promotes living life and living it more abundantly
Giving of one's self
Honoring parents
Obeying authorities
Respect for another’s property
Marital fidelity
Abstinence (until marriage).
True Christianity promotes all that is good for mankind to prosper and live in peace with one another.
Some of those are decent qualities and some are not. I guess it really depends on the person, time and place involved in the analysis.
The Non Christian view point is rooted in
Selfish gain
Disrespect for authority
Disrespect for parents
Unfair treatment of women and children
Disrespect for another's property
The perpetuation of promiscuous behavior
Non-Christians teach take what you want and in many cases by any means necessary.
You've just described, almost to a T, the current moral climate of america. Acquisition is king, Personal gain, fame, money, comfortable wealth are all the values held highest in the USA.
No, God used fallible men to pen his inspired words, read
2 Timothy 3:16
This is the reward; the Christian’s life is lived to glorify God by serving Christ.
You're using the source itself to prove the truth of your assertion that the Bible is infallible? That's not helpful. I have tattooed on my chest that I'm a love god. I know I am. It's written on my chest. I joke but you do understand my point?
Tell me in what way is Christianity responsible for the following?
Killing and Raping women
War abroad
Discrimination
Racism
Money Laundering
Every conceivable vice in America (Porn, gambling, drugs and alcohol abuse)
This is humanism (Every dog for himself)
How can that be blamed on Christianity?
Someone convinced of the absolute authority and truth of their own perspective is capable of any monstrosity.
Humanism is not every dog for himself. Our society is one of laws predicated on a social contract. That's a product of humanism.
The way I see it Christianity is the way to break those chains, do you disagree?
See Non-Christians will never hold themselves accountable for the corruptions I have listed above.
Non-Christians love to deal in darkness and so do some Christians but there is a difference. Neither is right don't get me wrong but there is a difference in the motivation and after thought.
HM
I try not to mindread when it comes to analyzing people. I don't see christians any better suited to handle life than a secular humanist relying on his sense of treating others as they'd like to be treated. (an oversimplification of course).
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Not athiests, but deists, which was the atheism of the day. Many of the founders were quite scornful and condescending towards Christianity. Observe Jefferson:
Thanks for the info, interesting
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Non-believers are not promoting grace, peace and love in this day and age or in the past!
How can you write something like that? I am an atheist, and I like to believe that I promote peace and love. How do you know I am not? And if you take a known Atheist like Bob Geldof, who promoted Live Aid and Band Aid that saved thousands of lives, compare him with a known Christian like George W Bush. How can you say that Bob Geldof is less of a promotor of peace and love than what George W Bush is?
I thought I cleared this up with my post to DeeDee. BTW I never said anything about GW Bush or anything against Bob Geldof.
Non-believers mock and attack our belief.
Some would say that Christians do the same with Atheists and Muslims, and other religions.
This is true
Non-believers do not promote the peace, love, grace and mercy found in Christ!
Actually non-believers are the antithesis of the Gospel of Christ.
Seems like it is you having trouble accepting that there are other beliefs than yours.
No, I understand and fully accept that there are other beliefs than mine.
The gospel (Good News) of Christ Jesus, is that we (believers) do not have to feel guilty anymore, we do not have to pay for our sins; Jesus has already paid the price and we have faith in the finished work on the cross. THAT IS THE GOOD NEWS (Gospel)
So if child molester, a pedophile, even if it was Adolf Hitler or whoever, they will not have to pay the price for their "sins". As long as they believe?
I know from a humanistic stand point this seems to be unfair especially to the victim but I must say this is Jesus and what he has done for all whom believe. He paid the price for past present and future sins of sinners. If a sinner turns from his ways (Repents he will be saved, remember the whore who was about to be stoned? Jesus told her "go and sin no more" it's that easy. You pointed out haneous crimes and a horrible person which we all agree on but the power of the finished work on the cross can save anyone from any sin accept for one-blasphemy of the Holy Spirit
You can not deny/dispute the motivation of the Christian missionary charge or its impact to the world over the past century. It is true in times past that the religious missionary M.O. (mainly Catholicism) was not necessarily motivated by the truth of Rom 1
it was some what selfish and prideful but we (present day believers) are better equipped to relay or convey the truth in Christ.
Why are you better equipped than Christians in the past?
Because Christians in the Common Era 29AD did not have the canon of scripture or the completed word of God and Jesus even said that those that came after him would do greater works than he did. see John 14:12-13
Those so called savages were worshipping the creation not the creator.
The missionaries were trying to correct improper worship of the God they (the so called savages) already knew existed.
See: Romans 1:18-32
What gave the "missionaries" the right to intervene in the worshipping practices of these grown adults?
Why weren't their religion respected?
The missionaries were following the charge of Christ and obeying what is called the "Great Commision" see Matthew 28:16-20
HM
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Slavery was a foundational aspect of a large part of the US. It almost destroyed the union. So I disagree with your protest.
Slavery was one of many economic catalysts which help build the US. Again I don't see slavery as as foundation for anything BUT to bring the gospel to a people (the African) no matter how painful it may seem to be but God allowed it to happen. I know that may be a tough pill to swallow for many but God works in mysterious ways far beyond our comprehension.
Heaven is number one. Getting there is the task. Some imagined place takes precedent over the real world.
Heaven is the final destination of those that belong to Christ Jesus. The requirement for getting there was accomplished by Christ on the cross
Some of those are decent qualities and some are not. I guess it really depends on the person, time and place involved in the analysis.
Which are not decent qualities?
You've just described, almost to a T, the current moral climate of america. Acquisition is king, Personal gain, fame, money, comfortable wealth are all the values held highest in the USA.
The humanist pays homage to those temporal material things and this type of idolatry is the decay in America not Christianity.
Remember the story about the rich young ruler? Luke 18:18-25
You're using the source itself to prove the truth of your assertion that the Bible is infallible? That's not helpful. I have tattooed on my chest that I'm a love god. I know I am. It's written on my chest. I joke but you do understand my point?
But we all know that is not truth ;D
Seriously, I can't prove God physically but the desire in me to serve and worship the God of the OT/NT is on going and I cannot turn away from him; I am in his grip! God says that he drew me to him and that I can never resist the drawing power of the Holy Spirit. No I can not explain it, it's supernatural for sure it has to be. see John 6 37, 44 & 65 & Rom 9:19b
Someone convinced of the absolute authority and truth of their own perspective is capable of any monstrosity.
True if that person is trying to walk in the flesh and in the spirit at the same time. Terrible place to be, straddling the fence like that.
Humanism is not every dog for himself. Our society is one of laws predicated on a social contract. That's a product of humanism.
No answer for that.
I try not to mindread when it comes to analyzing people. I don't see christians any better suited to handle life than a secular humanist relying on his sense of treating others as they'd like to be treated. (an oversimplification of course).
Yes over-simplified but who said Christians are better suited to handle life? I think the difference is how Christians and non-Christian view their fellow man. We look at everyone as God's handy work even if they are inhumane to us and that is because we are trying to be obedience to Jesus's commands. I think the Humanist would not handle it the same way and definetly not from the same perspective.
It's in the bible about how we should treat those made in God's image but I can't find it right now. But this is close enough.
Hebrews 12:14 & Hebrews 13:1