Why do non-Christians...

[Hustle Man]

...worry sooo much about what Christians believe?

[OzmO]

...worry sooo much about what Christians believe?

I don't think they worry about it.  I think they are curious as to why a person can believe what they believe in the face of contradiction, modern science and what they perceive is common sense.

Besides, a forum is a great place to talk religion and debate it versus risking violating the mild social taboo of never debating politics, religion and economics.

[Dos Equis]

I think for at least some they are still searching and this is one way to avoid completely closing the door on their faith, whether that faith has been lost or not yet found. 

[Decker]

...worry sooo much about what Christians believe?

99.9% of our elected US representatives are christians.  Every single US president has been a christian.  Christians are advocating an all out attack on the US education system so that it may reflect a Christian perspective. 

Most importantly though, Christians believe they know the Truth.  When a person is steeped so far in belief that he/she cannot see the other side(s) of an argument, the results can be ugly:

The Clan, The Crusades, The Inquisition, Falwell & Robertson....the list goes on.

[ATHEIST]

elected officials have to be Christians or they wont get voted in. 

[columbusdude82]

...worry sooo much about what Christians believe?

I really wouldn't mind creationist stupidity if they kept it in the churches, but when they try to force into the curriculum in order to sabotage the science education of children and make them stupid and scientifically illiterate, then that's when I start worrying

[OzmO]

99.9% of our elected US representatives are christians.  Every single US president has been a christian.  Christians are advocating an all out attack on the US education system so that it may reflect a Christian perspective. 

Most importantly though, Christians believe they know the Truth.  When a person is steeped so far in belief that he/she cannot see the other side(s) of an argument, the results can be ugly:

The Clan, The Crusades, The Inquisition, Falwell & Robertson....the list goes on.

Don't forget that kook who locked himself in a tower until he got 10 million.   Was it Oral Roberts?

Also don't forget the millions or billions in business made from the commercialization of religion.

[loco]

Christians are advocating an all out attack on the US education system so that it may reflect a Christian perspective. 

Lumping everybody together, aren't we?

Genesis is not a science book.  Genesis is not a biology book.

Tell that to your friends at "Answers in Genesis"...

I don't think that you need to worry about "my friends" at Answers in Genesis. 

Answers in Genesis has consistently stated that it would be counterproductive for public schools to force science instructors to teach creation or ID. Since most science teachers are evolutionists, they would teach creation or ID poorly—and the effort to introduce counters to evolution would generally backfire.   

Most importantly though, Christians believe they know the Truth.  When a person is steeped so far in belief that he/she cannot see the other side(s) of an argument, the results can be ugly:

The Clan, The Crusades, The Inquisition, Falwell & Robertson....the list goes on.

"Scientists also often claim that religion rarely inculcates virtue. The history of religion is, after all, the history of bloodshed. (It is a law of nature that scientists must bring up the Crusades within five minutes of mention of religion.) In any case, the argument goes, atheists are as ethical as any believer, and religion needn’t be kept about for purely moral reasons. But Gould again argues that this claim misses the historical fact that the Church was a secular and not merely religious institution. When the Church was a powerful state, it, not surprisingly, acted like a powerful state. It is also worth noting (and Gould doesn’t) that when avowedly atheist governments called the shots their ethical track record was less than awe-inspiring. Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot are not, so far as I know, in line for sainthood. The point isn’t that godless commies are bad. The point is that it is dishonest to pretend that the Crusades count against theism but that Stalin doesn’t count against atheism."   

-  H. Allen Orr

Gould on God Can religion and science be happily reconciled? in the Boston Review
http://bostonreview.net/BR24.5/orr.html

[Decker]

Lumping everybody together, aren't we?

Sort of.

Tell that to your friends at "Answers in Genesis"...



"Scientists also often claim that religion rarely inculcates virtue. The history of religion is, after all, the history of bloodshed. (It is a law of nature that scientists must bring up the Crusades within five minutes of mention of religion.) In any case, the argument goes, atheists are as ethical as any believer, and religion needn’t be kept about for purely moral reasons. But Gould again argues that this claim misses the historical fact that the Church was a secular and not merely religious institution. When the Church was a powerful state, it, not surprisingly, acted like a powerful state. It is also worth noting (and Gould doesn’t) that when avowedly atheist governments called the shots their ethical track record was less than awe-inspiring. Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot are not, so far as I know, in line for sainthood. The point isn’t that godless commies are bad. The point is that it is dishonest to pretend that the Crusades count against theism but that Stalin doesn’t count against atheism."   

-  H. Allen Orr

Gould on God Can religion and science be happily reconciled? in the Boston Review
http://bostonreview.net/BR24.5/orr.html

How about the Tens of thousands of deaths wrought by Christian president GW Bush? 

Does that ring a more contemporary bell for you?

You know Bush, this guy:

Bush said he did not remember asking the question of his father, former president George H.W. Bush, who fought Iraq in the 1991 Persian Gulf War. But, he added that the two had discussed developments in Iraq.

"You know he is the wrong father to appeal to in terms of strength. There is a higher father that I appeal to," Bush said.

So I guess it was really the christian God (prince of peace) ordering Bush to mutilate the children, women and men of Iraq.

[loco]

Sort of.

That's what I thought.   

How about the Tens of thousands of deaths wrought by Christian president GW Bush? 

Does that ring a more contemporary bell for you?

You know Bush, this guy:

Bush said he did not remember asking the question of his father, former president George H.W. Bush, who fought Iraq in the 1991 Persian Gulf War. But, he added that the two had discussed developments in Iraq.

"You know he is the wrong father to appeal to in terms of strength. There is a higher father that I appeal to," Bush said.

So I guess it was really the christian God (prince of peace) ordering Bush to mutilate the children, women and men of Iraq.

You are completely missing H. Allen Orr's and Stephen Jay Gould's point.  We can talk numbers all day long, but that's not the point:

WWI(1914 - 1918):  19,772,701
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I_casualties#References

WWII(1930s – 1945): 62,000,000
- World War II: Combatants and Casualties (1937 — 1945). Retrieved on 2007-04-20.
- Source List and Detailed Death Tolls for the Twentieth Century Hemoclysm. Retrieved on 2007-04-20.
- World War II Fatalities. Retrieved on 2007-04-20.

Great Leap Forward(1958 - 1960):  43,000,000
- Peng Xizhe (彭希哲), "Demographic Consequences of the Great Leap Forward in China's Provinces," Population and Development Review 13, no. 4 (1987), 639-70.

Great Purge(1937 -1938): 1,200,000
- Soviet Repression Statistics: Some Comments by Historian Michael Ellman, 2002

Pol Pot's agrarian collectivization (1975 -1979): 1,700,000
- Sophal Ear (May 1995). The Khmer Rouge Canon 1975-1979: The Standard Total Academic View on Cambodia. Retrieved on 2007-11-02.In Chapter 1: Introduction
- The Cambodian Genocide Program. Retrieved on 2007-11-02.

That's what?  127,672,701 casualties for just these few, that's not counting the emotional, cultural, economic trauma, etc.  Keep in mind that the above did not happen in ancient times.  It was done by "modern civilized people", moved by secular ideologies.

Deedee,
You are missing the point for me bringing this up.  OzmO pointed out that there is harm in believing that the OT is the word of God because that makes us "more" vulnerable to manipulations from politicians.  He said that there is "more potential" for believers in the OT to be manipulated into killing. 

But as you can see, anybody whether secular or religious has as much potential to be manipulated or is just as vulnerable to be manipulated into killing.  People can be manipulated by ideals, whether they believe in the OT or not, whether those ideals are secular or religious.  To say that if nobody today believed in the OT is going to make people less vulnerable to such manipulations is naive. 

And I did not know that the Iraq war was a religious war fought in the name of God.  I know you don't really believe that.  Isn't the Iraq war about oil, wealth and power, fought in the name of "National Security"?  Anyway, what do I know.  I'm Venezuelan.   

[Deicide]

I don't think they worry about it.  I think they are curious as to why a person can believe what they believe in the face of contradiction, modern science and what they perceive is common sense.

Besides, a forum is a great place to talk religion and debate it versus risking violating the mild social taboo of never debating politics, religion and economics.

That sums it up well.

The ideas behind Christianity are farcical and ridiculous; I get why people 'believe': for emotional reasons, comfort, consolation etc., but not being wired that way I really don't get it on a certain level. If I did I would believe in the existence of the D&D universe.

[Hustle Man]

99.9% of our elected US representatives are christians.  Every single US president has been a christian.  Christians are advocating an all out attack on the US education system so that it may reflect a Christian perspective. 

Most importantly though, Christians believe they know the Truth.  When a person is steeped so far in belief that he/she cannot see the other side(s) of an argument, the results can be ugly:

The Clan, The Crusades, The Inquisition, Falwell & Robertson....the list goes on.

99.9% of our elected US representatives are christians.

   - This is a Christian Nation right?

Every single US president has been a Christian

   - Of course see pt #1

Christians are advocating an all out attack on the US education system so that it may reflect a Christian perspective.

   - Again the nation was founded on Christian values and Christian laws.

Most importantly though, Christians believe they know the Truth.

   - Correction, our truth is based on the Canon of Scripture (the 66 books of the bible) we stand firm on the Canon of scripture
John 8:31-32
31 Jesus told the people who had faith in him, "If you hold to my teaching, you truly are my disciples.
32 You will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." 

When a person is steeped so far in belief that he/she cannot see the other side(s) of an argument, the results can be ugly:

You are confusing true discipleship with false teaching, don't get it twisted!

The Clan = False teaching in the name of Christ and ignorantly serving Satan.
The Crusades = Incorrect motivation
The Crusades originally had the goal of recapturing Jerusalem and the Holy Land from Muslim rule and were originally launched in response to a call from the Eastern Orthodox Byzantine Empire for help against the expansion of the Muslim Seljuk Turks into Anatolia.
The Inquisition = Totally contrary to the teachings of Christ Jesus
Falwell/ Robertson = Misguided and self righteous leaders

HM

[Hustle Man]

That sums it up well.

The ideas behind Christianity are farcical and ridiculous; I get why people 'believe': for emotional reasons, comfort, consolation etc., but not being wired that way I really don't get it on a certain level. If I did I would believe in the existence of the D&D universe.

You don't get it because you do not have the HOLY SPIRIT, this is understandable!

1 Corinthians 1:18-19
18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."

HM

[Deicide]

You don't get it because you do not have the HOLY SPIRIT, this is understandable!

1 Corinthians 1:18-19
18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."

HM

Please provide measurable evidence for the Holy Spirit. Thank you.

[bebop396]

Some of our founding fathers i heard were athiests....The popular idea that our country was founded on christianity supposedly is a twentieth century construct....

[bebop396]

I find it highly unlikely personally, to think our founding fathers would leave one nation that persecuted their population backed by religion, to ship over to america, and start another  nation based on religion...Just using common sense, no facts to back that up....

[Hedgehog]

...worry sooo much about what Christians believe?

The same could be said about Christians.

Christians went into Africa to "rescue" the "savages" who already had their spiritual religions.

Or to this day tries to preach the Gospel of Jesus to non-believers.

[Deicide]

Some of our founding fathers i heard were athiests....The popular idea that our country was founded on christianity supposedly is a twentieth century construct....

Not athiests, but deists, which was the atheism of the day. Many of the founders were quite scornful and condescending towards Christianity. Observe Jefferson:

I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent.

The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills.

In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.

Among the sayings and discourses imputed to him [Jesus] by his biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others again of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism, and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being.

Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.

[OzmO]

That sums it up well.

The ideas behind Christianity are farcical and ridiculous; I get why people 'believe': for emotional reasons, comfort, consolation etc., but not being wired that way I really don't get it on a certain level. If I did I would believe in the existence of the D&D universe.

I wonder how many hit points and strength Arnold had at his peak?   

[OzmO]

   
Falwell/ Robertson = Misguided and self righteous leaders

HM

Good call HM.   

[Decker]

That's what I thought.   

I'm also certain there are many many good muslims out there.  Unfortunately it's the extremist nuts that drag down the group.  Same goes for the Christians.  I could reference that in my comments, but it's easier to refer to christians rather than christian extremist, fundamentalist, militant etc.

You are completely missing H. Allen Orr's and Stephen Jay Gould's point.  We can talk numbers all day long, but that's not the point:

I wasn't aware that all non-christians are automatically Atheists.  I'm not.  And I am not a Christian.

Einstein discussed the NECESSITY of religion.  He also discussed how religion must work with science.  That, I agree with.

And I did not know that the Iraq war was a religious war fought in the name of God.  I know you don't really believe that.  Isn't the Iraq war about oil, wealth and power, fought in the name of "National Security"?  Anyway, what do I know.  I'm Venezuelan.   

"I KNEW that my God was bigger than his," Lieutenant General William G. Boykin said of his Muslim opponent. "I knew that my God was a real God, and his was an idol."

"This is a new kind of  -- a new kind of evil.  And we understand.  And the American people are beginning to understand.  This crusade, this war on terrorism is going to take a while."
--Pres. GW Bush

It certainly looks like our leaders are painting the Iraq invasion in religious terminology, doesn't it?

The Iraq war was given literally a 100 justifications.  It just so happens that our political leaders use one as a religious justification. 

[Deicide]

I'm also certain there are many many good muslims out there.  Unfortunately it's the extremist nuts that drag down the group.  Same goes for the Christians.  I could reference that in my comments, but it's easier to refer to christians rather than christian extremist, fundamentalist, militant etc.
I wasn't aware that all non-christians are automatically Atheists.  I'm not.  And I am not a Christian.

Einstein discussed the NECESSITY of religion.  He also discussed how religion must work with science.  That, I agree with.
"I KNEW that my God was bigger than his," Lieutenant General William G. Boykin said of his Muslim opponent. "I knew that my God was a real God, and his was an idol."

"This is a new kind of  -- a new kind of evil.  And we understand.  And the American people are beginning to understand.  This crusade, this war on terrorism is going to take a while."
--Pres. GW Bush

It certainly looks like our leaders are painting the Iraq invasion in religious terminology, doesn't it?

The Iraq war was given literally a 100 justifications.  It just so happens that our political leaders use one as a religious justification. 

Because we are unfortunately stuck with religion as poorly evolved and stupid primates?

[Hustle Man]

The same could be said about Christians.

Christians went into Africa to "rescue" the "savages" who already had their spiritual religions.

Or to this day tries to preach the Gospel of Jesus to non-believers.

Non-believers are not promoting grace, peace and love in this day and age or in the past!
Non-believers mock and attack our belief.
Non-believers do not promote the peace, love, grace and mercy found in Christ!
Actually non-believers are the antithesis of the Gospel of Christ.
The gospel (Good News) of Christ Jesus, is that we (believers) do not have to feel guilty anymore, we do not have to pay for our sins; Jesus has already paid the price and we have faith in the finished work on the cross. THAT IS THE GOOD NEWS (Gospel)

You can not deny/dispute the motivation of the Christian missionary charge or its impact to the world over the past century. It is true in times past that the religious missionary M.O. (mainly Catholicism) was not necessarily motivated by the truth of Rom 1
it was some what selfish and prideful but we (present day believers) are better equipped to relay or convey the truth in Christ.

Those so called savages were worshipping the creation not the creator.
The missionaries were trying to correct improper worship of the God they (the so called savages) already knew existed.
See: Romans 1:18-32

HM

[Decker]

Because we are unfortunately stuck with religion as poorly evolved and stupid primates?

Unfortunately, it seems all we know in this country are the dogmatic aspects of religion.  Einstein hated that. 

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

"The religious geniuses of all ages have been distinguished by this kind of religious feeling, which knows no dogma and no God conceived in man's image; so that there can be no church whose central teachings are based on it. Hence it is precisely among the heretics of every age that we find men who were filled with this highest kind of religious feeling and were in many cases regarded by their contemporaries as atheists, sometimes also as saints. Looked at in this light, men like Democritus, Francis of Assisi, and Spinoza are closely akin to one another.

How can cosmic religious feeling be communicated from one person to another, if it can give rise to no definite notion of a God and no theology? In my view, it is the most important function of art and science to awaken this feeling and keep it alive in those who are receptive to it. "

--Einstein

I can't argue with Einstein on that b/c I agree.  What I can argue with is all the nutbag know-it-all religious extremists that think that their nutty ideas are really being conspired against by the Pro-Satan Science establishment.

[Hustle Man]

...I wasn't aware that all non-christians are automatically Atheists.  I'm not.  And I am not a Christian.

If you do not believe in Christ you are not a Christian therefore you do not believe in the God of the OT/NT so you might as well be called an atheist.

No arguement there.

HM