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Getbig Bodybuilding Boards => Steroids Info & Hardcore => Topic started by: Mega Man on May 07, 2008, 12:08:51 AM
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I know some use insulin for bulking and building mass...
But How is it used for cutting? Like to get into ketosis? Anyone have any links or info to share?
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I know some use insulin for bulking and building mass...
But How is it used for cutting? Like to get into ketosis? Anyone have any links or info to share?
2 i.u humalog every 2 hours the day before and you should be deep into ketosis by the time you wake up in the am the next day.
don't fuck around with this if you don't have to. take the 3 days and let your body slip in ketosis gradually.
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2 i.u humalog every 2 hours the day before and you should be deep into ketosis by the time you wake up in the am the next day.
don't fuck around with this if you don't have to. take the 3 days and let your body slip in ketosis gradually.
thanks for the reply....
Can you be a little more specific about the dosing. Like at what time would you start the first injection of the insulin?...and how many shots all together would you take?
I read in Muscular developement that the chance of you dieing in your sleep or all the horror stories people read on message boards is B.S. He said in the article that it would take an extreme mega dose of insulin to kill you.
I understand insulin is risky and not something to take lightly.....I just want the info, the real scoop...so I can make the decisions myself.
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thanks for the reply....
Can you be a little more specific about the dosing. Like at what time would you start the first injection of the insulin?...and how many shots all together would you take?
I read in Muscular developement that the chance of you dieing in your sleep or all the horror stories people read on message boards is B.S. He said in the article that it would take an extreme mega dose of insulin to kill you.
I understand insulin is risky and not something to take lightly.....I just want the info, the real scoop...so I can make the decisions myself.
listen, no offense- i don't like giving out exact information involving this compound in the manner in which you wish to run it.
it is clear insulin is new to you, and i would be hesitant to dispense advise using this compound even if you were considering using it off season, let alone using it to get into keto.
i answered to satisfy a curiosity i thought you had, not to outline how to use it. that's why i didn't go into specifics.
you want my advise? be smart and take the three days to drop into keto naturally.
(edit: jesus, you haven't even done a cycle yet and you want to use insulin to get into ketosis...?)
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listen, no offense- i don't like giving out exact information involving this compound in the manner in which you wish to run it.
it is clear insulin is new to you, and i would be hesitant to dispense advise using this compound even if you were considering using it off season, let alone using it to get into keto.
i answered to satisfy a curiosity i thought you had, not to outline how to use it. that's why i didn't go into specifics.
you want my advise? be smart and take the three days to drop into keto naturally.
(edit: jesus, you haven't even done a cycle yet and you want to use insulin to get into ketosis...?)
None taken...... ;D
I'm on my first cycle now...and when I'm done I'm gonna cut up.....
Taking insulin is not rocket science.......I'm sure I can do it without killing myself.
I'm a smart guy, I can handle it with the right research. I'm gonna buy the glucometer and everything. And research it some more.
Thanks for the info and advice you did give me though. You got me in the right direction. I totaly understand where you are comming from.
Just so you know I'm not the type of dumb ass that buys liquid chems from a research lab...then makes a post asking if I should inject the liquid adex intra-musular or sub-Q ;D
If I do it...Im gonna do it right. ;)
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Bro, "no one" is right, you don't need insulin to get into ketosis...not by any means. In fact, it is completely unnecessary and not really prudent IMO. He's also right, more then likely it will only take about 3days of dieting in which you only take in somewhere in the sub 50g of carbs per day. For some it may take a little longer, but more then likely only a day or two more.
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I understand you can enter ketosis naturaly in only a few days.
But the thing is....dieting is hard enough to do. After 3 days of getting into ketosis you're gonna feel like shit and then you still have to be disciplined to diet and cardio from that point on.
But if you can get into ketosis in only a few hours...and start doing cardio and burning fat the next day...that's so much quicker and makes your time more productive in my opinion.
But again....I didn't realy ask if people recomended using insulin for this purpose...I just wanted to know how it's done.
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Okay....I found two good articles
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=57432
http://www.timinvermont.com/fitness/hardcore.htm#part4
Extreme Ketogenic Dieting
by Grendel
Perhaps one of the most effective ways to lose body fat is through low carbohydrate dieting. Once considered a fad diet, this way of eating is gaining tremendous popularity in mainstream culture. Championed by Dr. Robert Atkins, this type of diet is being used by millions of Americans to lose weight. Atkins’ diet greatly restricted carbohydrates and appears to be successful for more sedentary lifestyles. However, athletes and bodybuilders will find that Atkins’ diet is not ideal; without carbohydrates performance deteriorates and ultimately muscle mass is lost. This does not mean that these diets are not useful to bodybuilders, it simply means that the standard low carbohydrate diet had to be revised to suit the needs of athletes.
Bodybuilders have long been aware of this somewhat radical concept of low carbohydrate dieting, more technically known as ketogenic dieting. Daniel Duchaine, in his seminal work BodyOpus, outlines the evolution of the diet. Essentially, research established that the body could switch metabolic pathways and use fats for energy. Athletes discovered, mostly through trial and error, that eating extremely low amounts of carbohydrates allowed them to drop a great deal of weight and water. They combined with this carbohydrate loading, a period of eating almost exclusively carbohydrates. The end result was astonishing, a diet that facilitates fat-loss without any appreciable loss of lean body mass.
Duchaine, DiPasquali (author of The Anabolic Diet), and Macdonald (author of The Ketogenic Diet) all present a similar dietary approach. Carbohydrates are restricted to the point where the body enters a state of ketosis where fat is burned as the prime energy source. To understand the biochemistry of ketogenic dieting we will start with a discussion of ketones. A ketone is simply a fractured fat and has a very unique advantage over normal fats. The brain will not use fats for fuel, but will readily accept ketones. In fact, once your body reaches a ketogenic state (when there are more ketones than glucose in the blood), ketones become the body’s primary source of energy. For the body to switch into a state of ketosis blood glucose levels must drop to around 50-60 mg/dl and insulin must drop almost to zero.
This drop to ketosis is accomplished by restricting intake of carbohydrates (and using drugs) that result in a drop of blood sugar and a depletion of liver stores of glycogen. After a period (usually five to seven days) of ketosis, the body is shocked with a carbohydrate loading phase. This influx of carbohydrates causes muscles starved and depleted of glycogen to respond by storing far more glycogen than they would normally. This process is known as glycogen super compensation. The average athlete will sustain about 85 millimoles of glycogen per kilogram of skeletal muscle. It's been proven that trained athletes can achieve levels of at least 175 millimoles through glycogen super compensation. This period of glycogen super compensation will result in muscle growth and is the reason why this diet is so well suited for bodybuilders. Almost any other kind of diet will result in some loss of lean body mass.
Within this particular camp, there are different philosophies as how to properly eat. Duchaine advocates a low fat carbohydrate loading phase, while DiPasquali makes an argument for a higher fat loading phase. Each method has its merits. Ketogenic diets are very adaptable, easily tailored to the individual. In the mainstream diet culture, the restraints on Ketogenic diets become relaxed as more and more weight is lost, until a maintenance level is reached. This is not the sort of dieting that suits bodybuilders who have more exactly requirements.
The purpose of this article is not to rehash the information already widely published. The introduction has the sole purpose of briefing someone on the basics of the diet. If you need to know more, read the books mentioned in the introduction. If you are already familiar with the diet (as most bodybuilders are) then go on to the next section.
Ketosis and Drugs
To enter ketosis blood sugar must decline. This can be accomplished through simple carbohydrate depravation. But keeping carbohydrate intake under 15 grams per day the body will enter (in about 3 days on average) the desired state. This is too long for our purposes. Heavy exercise, which depletes blood sugar and stored glycogen, will speed up this process. However, the addition of insulin or insulin like drugs will assist in driving down blood-sugar levels and will allow the athlete to enter a state of ketosis much more rapidly.
Using insulin is perhaps the most effective way to quickly enter ketosis, but involves using insulin in the most dangerous of ways, in the complete absence of carbohydrates. The risk is that your body will enter hypoglycemic shock, which leads to coma and death. Consequently, the information in this section should only be utilized by the most advanced athlete, someone who's intelligent and responsible enough not to end up killing themselves.
As mentioned previously levels below 50-60 mg/dl are indicative of ketosis. Knowing this, select the most rapid acting insulin (refer to Insulin: The Most Anabolic Hormone), which is Humalog insulin. This drug begins to act in 15 minutes and is out of your system in about 2-4 hours. After your last meal of carbohydrates, begin injections of 2 iu's of Humalog insulin every 2 hours. Before each injection monitor your blood sugar levels. This will require the purchase of a glucometer and the associated strips. It's imperative that you are constantly monitoring your blood sugar; this isn't a process that can be learned through trial and error. When you have reached the blood sugar range we are shooting for, stop your injections. Remember to stay awake for at least 3 hours after you last shot to monitor yourself for signs of hypoglycemia. Anyone attempting this method should read the Insulin article in the back issues of Anabolic Extreme so that they understand more about insulin. Do not attempt to use insulin without a blood sugar monitor.
For those of you unsure about using injectable insulin, oral insulin agonists are another excellent choice to get into ketosis quickly. Metformin Hydrochloride (trade name Glucophage) is the preferred drug. Oral Metformin hydrochloride belongs to a class of antidiabetic agents called biguanides. It is used to treat type-2 diabetes (previously known as non-insulin dependent diabetes mellitus). Metformin lowers blood glucose levels by decreasing glucose production by the liver and increasing tissue responsiveness to insulin. Phenformin can also be used and is technically a more potent drug. For our purposes Metformin is ideal. In addition to dropping your blood sugar into a level that will start ketosis, Metformin has other ancillary benefits. By controlling insulin levels, it limits hunger. Additionally, Metformin increases insulin sensitivity, which is good considering that most people are insulin insensitive. This insulin insensitivity causes their bodies to over-produce insulin, which causes weight gain and can eventually lead into a host of health problems. That makes the use of Metformin all the more potent a dieting resource; dosages of 2000 to 3000 mg per day taken in divided dosages with each meal are sufficient to rapidly induce ketosis. Oral insulin antagonists should be used until ketosis is reached, but may be continued to assist with controlling hunger and keeping insulin sensitivity high. For those people unwilling or unable to obtain Metformin, vanadyl sulfate may be used in its place. Vanadyl sulfate, along with chromium, serve as weaker forms of insulin antagonists. They will help in dropping blood sugar and may control hunger pangs, however, as should be expected, they are nowhere near as powerful of glucose disposal agents.
Active thyroid hormone (T3) is a useful addition to almost any diet. Ketogenic diets have a method of preserving thyroid function using reverse T3 so you will have less metabolic shutdown of the thyroid axis from a ketogenic diet. An advantage to using T3 with such a diet is that you are already going to be consuming more protein, which will help offset the potential catabolism of the T3. Clenbuterol, or ephedrine, is also useful on this diet for its thermogenic effects. The only diet drug that should not be used with a ketogenic diet, if it's used at all, is DNP. The method of action of DNP makes it extremely dangerous to a low-carbohydrate dieter that has already depleted stores of glycogen.
Glycogen Super Compensation and Drugs
Just as can benefit from using pharmaceuticals to speed up the descent into ketosis, we can also use them to more effectively glycogen load. We can do this through two methods, either through the direct use of exogenous insulin, or through the use of the insulin agonists we've previously discussed. Maximum glucose disposal is only achieved in the presence of large amounts of insulin, something we can obviously facilitate through controlled insulin injections.
The danger of using insulin during glycogen super compensation is far less than during the ketogenic phase, simply because of the enormous amounts of carbohydrates that are being consumed. However, if insulin is going to be used during this phase, it's imperative that the athletes follow Duchaine's recommendations for a low-fat carb loading phase. This will ensure that the fat lost during the previous week will not be regained during this period.
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Here is the second article
http://www.timinvermont.com/fitness/hardcore.htm#part4
4. A controversial secret for getting into fat burning ketosis faster with Humulin R-8 hours instead of 3 days-and how you can get it!
There is a hardcore trick the pro's use that forces your body into ketosis within only 8 to 12 hours allowing more time for the body to burn fatty acid stores before your carb-up stage. The trick, originally brought to my attention by Dan Duchaine, is the use of Humulin R injectible insulin. Humulin R insulin is important compared to other types of insulin because it reaches its peak effect in 2 hours, causing a quick metabolic shift into ketosis. Using small amounts of insulin will cause your blood glucose to drop, in a quick and controlled manner. Glucose levels hit about 50 mg/ml and force your body into ketosis at a much faster rate. Insulin is one of the most controversial drugs used in bodybuilding today. The reality is that if you slip up and use too much insulin, you could enter a hypoglycemic coma, which could cause irreversible damage to your body and in some cases prove fatal. Please note that that the following information is highly controversial and provided solely for informational purposes.
Despite the controversy surrounding its use insulin is one of the easiest substances in bodybuilding to obtain legally. It is available over the counter in most U.S. states and costs between $20-$30 in local pharmacies and is even cheaper through U.S. mail order pharmacies. In most U.S. states a prescription is required to purchase and possess the insulin syringes used to administer the drug. This problem can be avoided by ordering syringes from mail order sources. A person using insulin for bodybuilding purposes should face no real legal ramifications. The only problems that can arise is getting caught possessing syringes with out a script or actually selling insulin for any purpose other than the treatment of diabetes.
A glucometer, to display your blood glucose levels, is highly recommended while attempting to use insulin safely. A glucometer costs around $100. It is possible to use insulin without a glucometer if your are cautious but it is not recommended. You will also need to purchase insulin syringes that hold up to 100 units. Do not use regular syringes. You will need to measure out precise amounts of insulin, between 2-3 units, which cannot be measured accurately using a regular syringe.
Here's how it works:
After you eat your last carb meal on Sunday night, you will need to take a reading on the glucometer to check your blood glucose level. The body's normal blood glucose level is usually between 80mg/ml and 120 mg/ml. At this point, draw 2-3 units of insulin into a syringe and inject it subcutaneously into a fold of skin. After waiting between two or three hours, take another reading with the glucometer. You blood glucose level will have dropped since your last measurement. Again inject 2 units of insulin and measure your blood glucose level around 2 hours after your injection. Repeat this cycle until your blood glucose level is between 55 mg/ml and 65 mg/ml. When your blood glucose is at this level, you will descend into ketosis while you sleep. ALWAYS REMEMBER TO STAY AWAKE FOR AT LEAST 2 HOURS AFTER AN INSULIN INJECTION. The last thing you want is to fall asleep after an injection and have your blood glucose drop to a dangerously low level while you sleep. You could fall into a hypoglycemic coma and no one will recognize the symptoms until it is too late.
Upon waking in the morning, measure your urine with the Ketostix. Measuring ketones in the morning is necessary because the sticks show only the unused level of ketones in your body and should show trace to moderate ketone levels. If you measure them in the afternoon the numbers will not be as accurate, because most of the ketones that were produced will have been used by your body as fuel.
If you do not have access to a glucometer, you will need to be much more cautious when attempting to use insulin. Since you will not be able to accurately measure your blood glucose, only small amounts of insulin should be used. You can start out with 2 units of insulin after your carb meal on Sunday. After that you should not use anymore than 1-1 1/2 units of insulin every two hours. A total of two or three injections should be made and then you should measure with the ketostix upon waking in the morning. If you still have not entered ketosis, use insulin injections of 1-1 1/2 units every two hours until you enter ketosis. This way takes longer, but you should enter ketosis within 18-20 hours.
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even without ALA or slin i get into ketosis by end of day one...and i can eat abotu 60-70 grams of trace carbs and stay in keto too.
everybodys different
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I understand you can enter ketosis naturaly in only a few days.
But the thing is....dieting is hard enough to do. After 3 days of getting into ketosis you're gonna feel like shit and then you still have to be disciplined to diet and cardio from that point on.
But if you can get into ketosis in only a few hours...and start doing cardio and burning fat the next day...that's so much quicker and makes your time more productive in my opinion.
But again....I didn't realy ask if people recomended using insulin for this purpose...I just wanted to know how it's done.
Actually after a few days of being in ketosis you should begin to feel really good. Your energy levels should be even throughout the day. No, not through the roof, but not in the gutter either...just constant and steady.
As far as do people do what you're asking...yes they do. There are people out there that will do just about anything. There are people out there that smoke crack every day, and guess what....they typically lose weight. Ever seen a fat crack head?
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insulin for cutting ?
goddamn it people....
you are asking about ketosis and everything so maybe you read a lot of palumbo's stuff. He is the first one to say: don't use insulin while dieting down
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insulin for cutting ?
goddamn it people....
you are asking about ketosis and everything so maybe you read a lot of palumbo's stuff. He is the first one to say: don't use insulin while dieting down
I'm still hung up on insulin inducing ketosis.
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I'm still hung up on insulin inducing ketosis.
people are retarded ;D
is it so hard to wait 2 or 3 days anyway ?!
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I understand you can enter ketosis naturaly in only a few days.
But the thing is....dieting is hard enough to do. After 3 days of getting into ketosis you're gonna feel like shit and then you still have to be disciplined to diet and cardio from that point on.
But if you can get into ketosis in only a few hours...and start doing cardio and burning fat the next day...that's so much quicker and makes your time more productive in my opinion.
But again....I didn't realy ask if people recomended using insulin for this purpose...I just wanted to know how it's done.
only the first three days of getting into ketosis are difficult.
once you are in, the diet is very easy. i ran a ketosis diet for 12 weeks, and 5 weeks straight without having any carb source or an advocated re-reed.
once you are in i found there were zero cravings, until your bf gets low enough that your body makes demands for food energy.
take your time. this is a marathon, not a sprint.
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people are retarded ;D
is it so hard to wait 2 or 3 days anyway ?!
::) ??? ::) ??? ::) ???
The CKD diet is perfect when used with insulin......
if you can get into ketosis instantly...then you will have 5 full days in ketosis before carb up the last two days.
But if you did it naturaly....it would take three days to get into ketosis...then in 2 more days you would already be ready to carb up for the weekend!
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not....worth....it...... .
that's just my opinion
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Okay....say I take the advice of Arnold Jr. and others that say just get into ketosis naturaly......
Would you do the same regimen as if you used insulin.....like load carbs from friday night to sunday night...then go back to zero to low carbs from sunday night to friday night???.....
Or since it takes longer to get into ketosis naturaly, would you stay low carb for longer......like say go zero or low carb for 8 days then carb load for 2 days and keep repeating that cycle. I got this idea from it takes 3 days to get into ketosis naturaly....then add 5 days that you normaly go low carb while in ketosis....when you use insulin to get into ketosis. This way you would be low carb in ketosis the same time as if you used insulin.
so my logic tells me if you
use insulin
carb load - 2 days
Zero carb - 5 days
naturaly
Carb load - 2 days
zero carb - 8 days
repeat cycle
Does this make sense? Cause your body is in ketosis the same amount of time and you carb load the same as well. It just takes an extra 3 days to get into ketosis naturaly?
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I'm still hung up on the exogenous administration of insulin inducing ketosis.
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Okay....say I take the advice of Arnold Jr. and others that say just get into ketosis naturaly......
Would you do the same regimen as if you used insulin.....like load carbs from friday night to sunday night...then go back to zero to low carbs from sunday night to friday night???.....
Or since it takes longer to get into ketosis naturaly, would you stay low carb for longer......like say go zero or low carb for 8 days then carb load for 2 days and keep repeating that cycle. I got this idea from it takes 3 days to get into ketosis naturaly....then add 5 days that you normaly go low carb while in ketosis....when you use insulin to get into ketosis. This way you would be low carb in ketosis the same time as if you used insulin.
so my logic tells me if you
use insulin
carb load - 2 days
Zero carb - 5 days
naturaly
Carb load - 2 days
zero carb - 8 days
repeat cycle
Does this make sense? Cause your body is in ketosis the same amount of time and you carb load the same as well. It just takes an extra 3 days to get into ketosis naturaly?
you don't have to re-carb. you can run keto for as many days as you feel comfortable. i found i lost more bf when i didn't reintroduce carbs into the diet. the only time during the diet cravingsbecome an issue, and energy levels become an issue, is when you have depleted most of your body's own fat stores. why throw yourself out of ketosis if you don't have to. if you feel your stalling your metabolism out, then re-introduce them. if your still running hot, then why bother?
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you don't have to re-carb. you can run keto for as many days as you feel comfortable. i found i lost more bf when i didn't reintroduce carbs into the diet. the only time during the diet cravingsbecome an issue, and energy levels become an issue, is when you have depleted most of your body's own fat stores. why throw yourself out of ketosis if you don't have to. if you feel your stalling your metabolism out, then re-introduce them. if your still running hot, then why bother?
So you don't lose hard earned muscle and your muscles stay fuller
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Mega Man!!!
It takes years of training and lots of experience using gear. You should cycle through at least a few years of AS use prior to ever going down that road. It seems like your hell bent on doing it so please be careful.
Peace
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So you don't lose hard earned muscle and your muscles stay fuller
and tell me why you'd lose muscle if you don't re-carb, please.
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and tell me why you'd lose muscle if you don't re-carb, please.
You really don't have a clue what you are talking about do you?
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You really don't have a clue what you are talking about do you?
unlike you, as we have all seen who thinks he's knows everything, what i speak of comes from experience, not what i think i know.
i am here to help offer real world experience and application of ketogenic dieting, unlike you who relies on spewing $2 words he read in his college school texts in an effort to look like he has an idea of what he is talking about, eventhough he has little experience. - tell us all again how icn galenkias are fake and any effects related to them are placebo, idiot.
i have forgotten more about ketogenic dieting, hormones, insulin usage and contest prep than you will ever know, sunshine. any time you wish to talk real world application step up- i won't be hard to find.
in the mean time, i suggest you run a ketogenic diet for yourself- and not just regurgitate what you read online and then come back and answer the question i posed to mega man.
until then, kindly fuck off.
thanks for coming out.
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i should have searched your post history earlier, i could have saved myself 2 minutes writing what i wrote above and arguing with an imbicile.
I almost never post in this forum (I don't juice)
all books, eh sport?
keep up the good work, sparky.
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unlike you, as we have all seen who thinks he's knows everything, what i speak of comes from experience, not what i think i know.
i am here to help offer real world experience and application of ketogenic dieting, unlike you who relies on spewing $2 words he read in his college school texts in an effort to look like he has an idea of what he is talking about, eventhough he has little experience. - tell us all again how icn galenkias are fake and any effects related to them are placebo, idiot.
i have forgotten more about ketogenic dieting, hormones, insulin usage and contest prep than you will ever know, sunshine. any time you wish to talk real world application step up- i won't be hard to find.
in the mean time, i suggest you run a ketogenic diet for yourself- and not just regurgitate what you read online and then come back and answer the question i posed to mega man.
until then, kindly fuck off.
thanks for coming out.
So you are speaking so far out of your ass you don't even know what you are posting?
oh, and fuck you too.
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So you are speaking so far out of your ass you don't even know what you are posting?
oh, and fuck you too.
go to the natural training board, sweetheart.
men are talking here.
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No one, do you really want me to rip the shit you've posted apart line by line? I can if you want me too. The thing is anyone who really knows shit about basic physiology recognized you have no clue by your second post. What is hysterical is you keep it going and now you are getting defensive.
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go to the natural training board, sweetheart.
men are talking here.
That was lame dude. Lets keep this professional and scientific. You are wrong with what you are posting. Its that simple.
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No one, do you really want me to rip the shit you've posted apart line by line? I can if you want me too. The thing is anyone who really knows shit about basic physiology recognized you have no clue by your second post. What is hysterical is you keep it going and now you are getting defensive.
the truth is anyone who knows anything will recognise from any post i have written in this forum that this isn't my first barbq, unlike yourself. i have spoken of things that would be way over many people's heads in an effort to help some who could use and apply at that level what i have given my experience on.
i think you tend to believe that if you use words big enough you'll be able to fool people into looking like you know what you are talking about. truth is, thats all they are, big words backed by zero experience.
sadly, the only people you will fool are the kids who are in the midst of their first cycles, and those who are thinking of trying hormones for the first time. congratulations on that.
like i said, let me know when you get some real world experience in the matters being discussed and then you can try to sound like you know what you are talking about.
until then, go open your book, princess, and tell us all how the body is supposed to function.
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mega man, just uz your not in ketosis, doesnt mean your ot burning fat, dude. even if it DOES take you a full three days each and every week to get into ketosis, as long as your sticking to the diet; youll be losing fat every weekday, not just the ones where you reach keto.
and after a few weeks of being on a keto diet, your body will move into ketosis much faster than it did origianally. its termed as being "fat adapted"
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well, lookie here boys and girls..
another fine example of the text book wizard dispensing advise from his vast realm of experience no doubt...
Man, I read this board primarily because I find the posts entertaining. Everyonce in a while there is one that is just asanine. This is one of those. Dude you need to stop and think a second about what the hell you are putting into your body...
DNP is essentially a cellular metabolic poison. It works by uncoupling oxidative phosphorylation within the mitochondria, leading to a rapid consumption of energy without generation of ATP. DNP is essentially a proton ionophore, an agent that moves protons (hydrogen ions) across biological membranes. By moving these protons, DNP removes the proton gradient across mitochondrial membranes, collapsing the proton motive force that the cells use to produce ATP. ATP is the energy source of the cell. Instead of producing ATP, the energy of the proton gradient is lost as heat. Cells attempt to counteract the lowered yields of ATP by oxidizing stored reserves. This is where the "fat burning" effects of DNP come from. The cells cannot utilize the proton gradient necessary to produce ATP, so they begin using fat as an energy source. Typically the cells will burn carbohydrates first--ie stored glycogen, then fat. Thats why you feel like crap when you take DNP, because you are seriously depleting your bodies stored energy reserves. If you reach a stage where you are fat depleted, your body will turn to the only other available source of energy---muscle tissue. DNP can literally melt muscle off your body along with fat. Typically that happens right before death as a result of hyperthermia. Remember, the major side effect uncoupling oxidative phosphorylation is the production of heat. In essence, part of the energy that is normally produced from cellular respiration is wasted as heat. This heat can lead to a fatal fever. DNP can and will kill you. Its that simple.
i highlighted your first quote in bold to point out the irony of all this...
tell me, 'vet' is this based on personal experience with the compound, or something you read?
i could probably search thru your post history if i were so inclined and take example after example of you talking about things with which you have zero experience with.
keep up the good work.
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the truth is anyone who knows anything will recognise from any post i have written in this forum that this isn't my first barbq, unlike yourself. i have spoken of things that would be way over many people's heads in an effort to help some who could use and apply at that level what i have given my experience on.
i think you tend to believe that if you use words big enough you'll be able to fool people into looking like you know what you are talking about. truth is, thats all they are, big words backed by zero experience.
sadly, the only people you will fool are the kids who are in the midst of their first cycles, and those who are thinking of trying hormones for the first time. congratulations on that.
like i said, let me know when you get some real world experience in the matters being discussed and then you can try to sound like you know what you are talking about.
until then, go open your book, princess, and tell us all how the body is supposed to function.
I post almost exactly the way I talk so I apologize if you can't understand me. All you have to do is ask and I'll try to restate things in a way that makes sense for you.
The way you are presenting the "real world" experience is bullshit as far as I'm concerned because its the one excuse that a person can present on a message board that you can hide behind without too much difficulty because of the simple fact we all post under a false name. You know absolutely nothing about me other than what I've chosen to tell you, the same as I know nothing about you. Thats fine by me. My statement is you have posted information that doesn't make sense physiologically. And you've failed to correct people when they followed up with what you were posting. Its that simple. Now, like I said, I've got time today. If you want me to go post by post through this thread, I will. And if you can prove me wrong, then by all means do so.
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well, lookie here boys and girls..
another fine example of the text book wizard dispensing advise from his vast realm of experience no doubt...
i highlighted your first quote in bold to pint out the irony of all this...
tell me, 'vet' is this based on personal experience with the compound, or something you read?
i could probably search thru your post history if i were so inclined and take example after example of you talking about things with which you have zero experience with.
keep up the good work.
Haha. You're struggling buddy.
How long did it take you to find something I've said again and again? I read this board because I find the posts entertaining. I can probably help you find the posts if you want to look for them.
Now lets refocus and go back to Ketosis, you can devote a whole other thread at a different time to other posts I've made.
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Haha. You're struggling buddy.
How long did it take you to find something I've said again and again? I read this board because I find the posts entertaining. I can probably help you find the posts if you want to look for them.
Now lets refocus and go back to Ketosis, you can devote a whole other thread at a different time to other posts I've made.
struggling?
seriously, answer the questions, then we'll go from there, ok?
i'll repeat them just for you as your attention span, for a guy who appears so intelligent, is a little lacking.
have you ever used a ketogenic diet?
have you ever used DNP?
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No one, since you started this thread with Insulin, and suggesting the use of insulin, please list 5 to 8 physiologic effects of insulin administration at the cellular level. Also please describe in detail insulins effects on fat metabolism.
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mega man, just uz your not in ketosis, doesnt mean your ot burning fat, dude. even if it DOES take you a full three days each and every week to get into ketosis, as long as your sticking to the diet; youll be losing fat every weekday, not just the ones where you reach keto.
and after a few weeks of being on a keto diet, your body will move into ketosis much faster than it did origianally. its termed as being "fat adapted"
This is true normal healthy individual can shed ketones in their morning urination because of fat metabolism overnight. They are not "in ketosis" per strict definition, but they are still burning fat.
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yup, ketones are just a by product of accelerated fat metabolism
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struggling?
seriously, answer the questions, then we'll go from there, ok?
i'll repeat them, just for you as your attention span, for a guy who appears so intelligent, is a little lacking.
have you ever used a ketogenic diet?
have you ever used DNP?
LOL. You are still struggling and its getting worse. How about you answer this question. Whats your background in physiology and exercise kinesiology? or better yet, how much do you bench press? ;D
Just to play along. Yes and no.
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yup, ketones are just a by product of accelerated fat metabolism
Its not really 'accelerated' as much as its just fat metabolism. The thing is ketones are generally produced in such low numbers that they are not measurable in the urine. If you are dieting hard and training hard, then you will have a larger volume of ketones per ml of urine produced. Once you break the threshold of the test strips, you will have a measurable amount. To truely be in a ketotic state, you need to have a measurable amount virutally every time you urinate.
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struggling?
seriously, answer the questions, then we'll go from there, ok?
i'll repeat them, just for you as your attention span, for a guy who appears so intelligent, is a little lacking.
have you ever used a ketogenic diet?
have you ever used DNP?
didn't think so.
see, i have. on both counts.
that's the difference between you and i-
i do. you read.
i wonder who's advise holds more weight- the person who talks, or the person who does.
so, sweetie, 'll leave it at this-
the next time someone wants to know the 8 physiologic effects of insulin administration at the cellular level, look in your purse for that text book and it's accompanying chapter and feel free to chime in.
the next time someone wants to know how to use compounds, and their effects in an applicable situation and real time/ real life applications, chime in anyway so i can have a good laugh.
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and tell me why you'd lose muscle if you don't re-carb, please.
::) ??? ::) ??? ::) ??? ::)
Let's see why that is so important!
In normal conditions the skeletal muscle glycogen concentration ranges from 1.5 grams to 2 grams per 100 grams of skeletal muscle tissue. A Swedish researcher BERGSTROM (1969) has shown that after a low carbohydrate diet that lasts for a period of 3 days accompanied with prolonged physical exercises/efforts one's skeletal muscle glycogen depots fall to a concentration of about 0.6 grams! After this limited 3 day period of carbohydrate depletion, a carbohydrate-rich diet was followed causing a new higher level of muscle glycogen content.
If the "depleting glycogen phase" has been done correctly, inducing a dramatic lowering of glycogen depots, it creates a "hunger state" for your muscles so that during the next "super compensation" phase they will store more glycogen than in normal conditions. In other words, they could store from 3.5 grams of glycogen to even 4 grams per 100 grams of skeletal muscle tissue. Don't forget that 1 gram of glycogen is linked with 2.7 grams of water. This means that if a bodybuilder has 45 kg (99 pounds) of Lean Muscular Tissue, (don't confuse Lean Muscular Tissue with Fat Free Mass; Lean muscular tissue is in other words "MUSCLE", instead Fat Free Mass consists of Lean Muscular Tissue + Bones + Water) he can increase his bodyweight about 4.86 kg (10.69 pounds) with glycogen and water during the carbohydrate loading phase.
The calculation goes like this:
1) Kg 45 x 10 = 450 hg
(Kg of skeletal muscle converted into hg; 1 kg equal 1000grams, 1 hg equal 100grams)
2) hg 450 x 4 = 1800 grams (total muscular glycogen content)
(the number 4 stands for the maximum glycogen content per 100 grams of muscle tissue)
3) 1800 grams x 2.7 = 4860 grams (final bodyweight achieved)
(2.7 is the grams of water linked to 1 gram of glycogen)
All this weight gained comes from glycogen and water. It's not water retention! Water retention means that water is being kept between the cells (in this case between the muscle cells) giving the muscles that smooth look that won't give you that ripped look that is so hard to reach after all the sacrifices that you made while preparing for competition. The water gained is all carried into the muscle cells because glycogen depots are located only inside and not outside the muscle and liver cells. That's why this loading phase makes the muscles appear bigger and fuller!
To cause this "supercompensation" it is very important to reload the right amount of carbs. The consumption of fewer carbohydrates than those needed won't lead to the desired effect and you may even notice that your muscles feel empty and become smaller. This is what usually happens to competitive bodybuilders! If this does happen, it would have been better NOT to have done the "depleting carb phase" at all.
If the consumption of carbs exceeds the amount needed to refill all your glycogen depots completely, that surplus will be converted into subcutaneous bodyfat. NOT GOOD.
Now you probably want to know how many carbs you should be eating in order to refill all your glycogen depots while avoiding the risk of reducing your muscle size or gaining bodyfat.
The recommended carbs consumption has been estimated at 400 to 600 grams per day for a period of 3 days after the depleting phase. There are also other very reliable experts on bodybuilding that instead of suggesting the 3 day depleting formula, they opt for 2 days for depleting and 2 days for reloading. My opinion on this is that the difference between the number of days for depleting and reloading is strictly personal and not applicable to everybody; and this is for many different reasons. Even the good results obtained with different schedules on different individuals cannot be simply applied directly to everyone else.
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/casi3.htm
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/casi3.htm
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didn't think so.
see, i have. on both counts.
that's the difference between you and i-
i do. you read.
i wonder who's advise holds more weight- the person who talks, or the person who does.
so, sweetie, 'll leave it at this-
the next time someone wants to know the 8 physiologic effects of insulin administration at the cellular level, look in your purse for that text book and it's accompanying chapter and feel free to chime in.
the next time someone wants to know how to use compounds, and their effects in an applicable situation and real time/ real life applications, chime in anyway so i can have a good laugh.
LOL. You are something you know that? You've pretty much just proven in my mind that you have absolutely no clue what so ever about what you are posting on and you've pretty much lost any semblance of credibility I was hoping you'd man up and prove you had. You have failed miserably and wasted about 30 minutes of my time. Thanks.
I've offered to go line by line on where I think you are wrong, you have refused to do that because deep down inside, you know you don't know what you are talking about and you know I can take apart what you are trying to post piece by piece. The insulin question was a simple one. All it would have taken was about 10 minutes and your good friend google and I bet you could have found an answer that was acceptable. Shit, even Candidizzler chimed into this thread and posted information thats more on base physiologically than what you were posting.
I may still go through what you posted for shits and giggles if there are other members who are interested in what I'm thinking. What is funniest is how you are hiding behind "real world experience" as an excuse---something that has already been established as a bullshit answer because of the anonymous nature of this very board. If you can prove me wrong with legitimate, documented facts, do it. Don't hide behind excuses, thats lame.
-
::) ??? ::) ??? ::) ??? ::)
Let's see why that is so important!
In normal conditions the skeletal muscle glycogen concentration ranges from 1.5 grams to 2 grams per 100 grams of skeletal muscle tissue. A Swedish researcher BERGSTROM (1969) has shown that after a low carbohydrate diet that lasts for a period of 3 days accompanied with prolonged physical exercises/efforts one's skeletal muscle glycogen depots fall to a concentration of about 0.6 grams! After this limited 3 day period of carbohydrate depletion, a carbohydrate-rich diet was followed causing a new higher level of muscle glycogen content.
If the "depleting glycogen phase" has been done correctly, inducing a dramatic lowering of glycogen depots, it creates a "hunger state" for your muscles so that during the next "super compensation" phase they will store more glycogen than in normal conditions. In other words, they could store from 3.5 grams of glycogen to even 4 grams per 100 grams of skeletal muscle tissue. Don't forget that 1 gram of glycogen is linked with 2.7 grams of water. This means that if a bodybuilder has 45 kg (99 pounds) of Lean Muscular Tissue, (don't confuse Lean Muscular Tissue with Fat Free Mass; Lean muscular tissue is in other words "MUSCLE", instead Fat Free Mass consists of Lean Muscular Tissue + Bones + Water) he can increase his bodyweight about 4.86 kg (10.69 pounds) with glycogen and water during the carbohydrate loading phase.
The calculation goes like this:
1) Kg 45 x 10 = 450 hg
(Kg of skeletal muscle converted into hg; 1 kg equal 1000grams, 1 hg equal 100grams)
2) hg 450 x 4 = 1800 grams (total muscular glycogen content)
(the number 4 stands for the maximum glycogen content per 100 grams of muscle tissue)
3) 1800 grams x 2.7 = 4860 grams (final bodyweight achieved)
(2.7 is the grams of water linked to 1 gram of glycogen)
All this weight gained comes from glycogen and water. It's not water retention! Water retention means that water is being kept between the cells (in this case between the muscle cells) giving the muscles that smooth look that won't give you that ripped look that is so hard to reach after all the sacrifices that you made while preparing for competition. The water gained is all carried into the muscle cells because glycogen depots are located only inside and not outside the muscle and liver cells. That's why this loading phase makes the muscles appear bigger and fuller!
To cause this "supercompensation" it is very important to reload the right amount of carbs. The consumption of fewer carbohydrates than those needed won't lead to the desired effect and you may even notice that your muscles feel empty and become smaller. This is what usually happens to competitive bodybuilders! If this does happen, it would have been better NOT to have done the "depleting carb phase" at all.
If the consumption of carbs exceeds the amount needed to refill all your glycogen depots completely, that surplus will be converted into subcutaneous bodyfat. NOT GOOD.
Now you probably want to know how many carbs you should be eating in order to refill all your glycogen depots while avoiding the risk of reducing your muscle size or gaining bodyfat.
The recommended carbs consumption has been estimated at 400 to 600 grams per day for a period of 3 days after the depleting phase. There are also other very reliable experts on bodybuilding that instead of suggesting the 3 day depleting formula, they opt for 2 days for depleting and 2 days for reloading. My opinion on this is that the difference between the number of days for depleting and reloading is strictly personal and not applicable to everybody; and this is for many different reasons. Even the good results obtained with different schedules on different individuals cannot be simply applied directly to everyone else.
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/casi3.htm
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/casi3.htm
that's a great copy/ paste.
i can't find the part in there where it says why you lose muscle if you don't re-feed.
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LOL. You are something you know that? You've pretty much just proven in my mind that you have absolutely no clue what so ever about what you are posting on and you've pretty much lost any semblance of credibility I was hoping you'd man up and prove you had. You have failed miserably and wasted about 30 minutes of my time. Thanks.
I've offered to go line by line on where I think you are wrong, you have refused to do that because deep down inside, you know you don't know what you are talking about and you know I can take apart what you are trying to post piece by piece. The insulin question was a simple one. All it would have taken was about 10 minutes and your good friend google and I bet you could have found an answer that was acceptable. Shit, even Candidizzler chimed into this thread and posted information thats more on base physiologically than what you were posting.
I may still go through what you posted for shits and giggles if there are other members who are interested in what I'm thinking. What is funniest is how you are hiding behind "real world experience" as an excuse---something that has already been established as a bullshit answer because of the anonymous nature of this very board. If you can prove me wrong with legitimate, documented facts, do it. Don't hide behind excuses, thats lame.
you're welcome.
-
Let's see why that is so important!
In normal conditions the skeletal muscle glycogen concentration ranges from 1.5 grams to 2 grams per 100 grams of skeletal muscle tissue. A Swedish researcher BERGSTROM (1969) has shown that after a low carbohydrate diet that lasts for a period of 3 days accompanied with prolonged physical exercises/efforts one's skeletal muscle glycogen depots fall to a concentration of about 0.6 grams! After this limited 3 day period of carbohydrate depletion, a carbohydrate-rich diet was followed causing a new higher level of muscle glycogen content.
If the "depleting glycogen phase" has been done correctly, inducing a dramatic lowering of glycogen depots, it creates a "hunger state" for your muscles so that during the next "super compensation" phase they will store more glycogen than in normal conditions. In other words, they could store from 3.5 grams of glycogen to even 4 grams per 100 grams of skeletal muscle tissue. Don't forget that 1 gram of glycogen is linked with 2.7 grams of water. This means that if a bodybuilder has 45 kg (99 pounds) of Lean Muscular Tissue, (don't confuse Lean Muscular Tissue with Fat Free Mass; Lean muscular tissue is in other words "MUSCLE", instead Fat Free Mass consists of Lean Muscular Tissue + Bones + Water) he can increase his bodyweight about 4.86 kg (10.69 pounds) with glycogen and water during the carbohydrate loading phase.
The calculation goes like this:
1) Kg 45 x 10 = 450 hg
(Kg of skeletal muscle converted into hg; 1 kg equal 1000grams, 1 hg equal 100grams)
2) hg 450 x 4 = 1800 grams (total muscular glycogen content)
(the number 4 stands for the maximum glycogen content per 100 grams of muscle tissue)
3) 1800 grams x 2.7 = 4860 grams (final bodyweight achieved)
(2.7 is the grams of water linked to 1 gram of glycogen)
All this weight gained comes from glycogen and water. It's not water retention! Water retention means that water is being kept between the cells (in this case between the muscle cells) giving the muscles that smooth look that won't give you that ripped look that is so hard to reach after all the sacrifices that you made while preparing for competition. The water gained is all carried into the muscle cells because glycogen depots are located only inside and not outside the muscle and liver cells. That's why this loading phase makes the muscles appear bigger and fuller!
To cause this "supercompensation" it is very important to reload the right amount of carbs. The consumption of fewer carbohydrates than those needed won't lead to the desired effect and you may even notice that your muscles feel empty and become smaller. This is what usually happens to competitive bodybuilders! If this does happen, it would have been better NOT to have done the "depleting carb phase" at all.
If the consumption of carbs exceeds the amount needed to refill all your glycogen depots completely, that surplus will be converted into subcutaneous bodyfat. NOT GOOD.
Now you probably want to know how many carbs you should be eating in order to refill all your glycogen depots while avoiding the risk of reducing your muscle size or gaining bodyfat.
The recommended carbs consumption has been estimated at 400 to 600 grams per day for a period of 3 days after the depleting phase. There are also other very reliable experts on bodybuilding that instead of suggesting the 3 day depleting formula, they opt for 2 days for depleting and 2 days for reloading. My opinion on this is that the difference between the number of days for depleting and reloading is strictly personal and not applicable to everybody; and this is for many different reasons. Even the good results obtained with different schedules on different individuals cannot be simply applied directly to everyone else.
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/casi3.htm
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/casi3.htm
Yes, I need to check the math, but this looks right. The one thing that I dont' see mentioned, but I think is implied, is the brain. Your brain and nerves MUST have a certian amount of glucose per day for normal function. The ketogenic diet limits this dietarily available glucose by inducing the [percieved] starvation state that leads to ketone production. The body will begin breaking down muscle tissue along with fat tissue for glucose production if this persists. The 'recarb" period is to prevent the body from breaking down muscle by providing necessary fuel for the brain and nerves in addition to replenishing glycogen stores--which will also provide fuel as that is broken down.
The other thing you have to consider is that the metabolism of ketones leads to an acidic state within the body. When the blood pH drops below ~7.2 you enter a state of Ketoacidosis, which is a life threatening event. Recarbing will prevent this pH drop from becoming severe.
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well no, "ketosis" is actually refering to a state in which your body is using ketones for BRAIN FUEL, istad of glucose. pretty cool thing about ketones is, that they can pass through the brain barrier unlike other ffa's.
still, you are correct, there are indeed SOME glucose demands even when in ketosis, but not necessarily for the brain. i once read that after a full month of ketognic dieting that your body would be using 85% fats fo fuel. so, even when "fat adapted" IT SEEMS as if muscle wasting will occur with some carb intake. especially when glycogen depleting weight weight lifting.
i dont like a diet plan whose goal is to get into ketosis, rather, i like a diet plan where one of the frequent by products is elevated amount of ketones, and infrequent lapses ito actual "ketosis"...
as i ssaid before, it takes me a day or less to get into keto; and sometimes if i do two or more pro/fat combos without any carbs i will find myself slipping into it.
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Yes, I need to check the math, but this looks right. The one thing that I dont' see mentioned, but I think is implied, is the brain. Your brain and nerves MUST have a certian amount of glucose per day for normal function. The ketogenic diet limits this dietarily available glucose by inducing the [percieved] starvation state that leads to ketone production. The body will begin breaking down muscle tissue along with fat tissue for glucose production if this persists The 'recarb" period is to prevent the body from breaking down muscle by providing necessary fuel for the brain and nerves in addition to replenishing glycogen stores--which will also provide fuel as that is broken down.
The other thing you have to consider is that the metabolism of ketones leads to an acidic state within the body. When the blood pH drops below ~7.2 you enter a state of Ketoacidosis, which is a life threatening event. Recarbing will prevent this pH drop from becoming severe.
i'm glad you had the common sense to edit this post as opposed to the first mess you thru up in response.
in any case, the example you have outlined above is not what would happen should you decided to stay in ketosis without a re-feed.
this is a starvation scenario, and again shows your ignorance of the practical use of the ketogenic diet.
stop embarrassing yourself. your 'experience' is really shining thru.
nice work.
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well no, "ketosis" is actually refering to a state in which your body is using ketones for BRAIN FUEL, istad of glucose. pretty cool thing about ketones is, that they can pass through the brain barrier unlike other ffa's.
still, you are correct, there are indeed SOME glucose demands even when in ketosis, but not necessarily for the brain. i once read that after a full month of ketognic dieting that your body would be using 85% fats fo fuel. so, even when "fat adapted" IT SEEMS as if muscle wasting will occur with some carb intake. especially when glycogen depleting weight weight lifting.
i dont like a diet plan whose goal is to get into ketosis, rather, i like a diet plan where one of the frequent by products is elevated amount of ketones, and infrequent lapses ito actual "ketosis"...
as i ssaid before, it takes me a day or less to get into keto; and sometimes if i do two or more pro/fat combos without any carbs i will find myself slipping into it.
I think I see what you are saying and you aren't incorrect (I also think in rereading my post, I was a bit vague) but you have to consider the structure of nerves. There is a central body where energy organelles like mitochondria exist, but there are few mitochondria in the axons, and mitochondria are the point where ketone metabolism occurs so even if ketones are being used as an energy source nerves MUST have a source of glucose. The brain can technically use ketones for fuel production to a degree (although ketones are generally thought of as a metabolic product, not a substrate), but they cannot derive 100% of their necessary fuel from that atypical substrate. If I remmber right its something like 1/3 of a neurons energy must come from glucose. There is no subsitute for this. And the body will do what it has to to protect the brain. If there isn't glucose or insulin to asist in glucose entering the nerve for fuel, the nerve will decrease in function or may die. This is really the basis (along with cardiovascular effects) for the formation of diabetic neuropathy.
The other thing you have to consider is that a large portion of the brains structure is fatty tissue. If the body is so depleted its forced to metabolize a stored fat there is reason to think that there may be changes in nerous tissue also, although thats probably microscopic in nature and you'd be knocking on deaths door long before it became a factor.
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i'm glad you had the common sense to edit this post as opposed to the first mess you thru up in response.
in any case, the example you have outlined above is not what would happen should you decided to stay in ketosis without a re-feed.
Then explain what would happen.
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Okay....say I take the advice of Arnold Jr. and others that say just get into ketosis naturaly......
Would you do the same regimen as if you used insulin.....like load carbs from friday night to sunday night...then go back to zero to low carbs from sunday night to friday night???.....
Or since it takes longer to get into ketosis naturaly, would you stay low carb for longer......like say go zero or low carb for 8 days then carb load for 2 days and keep repeating that cycle. I got this idea from it takes 3 days to get into ketosis naturaly....then add 5 days that you normaly go low carb while in ketosis....when you use insulin to get into ketosis. This way you would be low carb in ketosis the same time as if you used insulin.
so my logic tells me if you
use insulin
carb load - 2 days
Zero carb - 5 days
naturaly
Carb load - 2 days
zero carb - 8 days
repeat cycle
Does this make sense? Cause your body is in ketosis the same amount of time and you carb load the same as well. It just takes an extra 3 days to get into ketosis naturaly?
Mega Man, since it takes approximately 3 days to get into ketosis, if you carbed up every wk end you would only be in ketosis 1 day per wk, therefore creating a huge rollercoaster that is unnecessary.
The easiest way and most efficient way to do this type of diet IMO: keep your carb intake around 50g every day, 1x per wk have a cheat meal of whatever you want...junk it up. This one meal is not enough to throw you out of ketosis...it will for a short time, a few hrs but that's it. You will though ramp your metabolism up even more with this "cheat" meal and everything will work perfectly.
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Mega Man, since it takes approximately 3 days to get into ketosis, if you carbed up every wk end you would only be in ketosis 1 day per wk, therefore creating a huge rollercoaster that is unnecessary.
The easiest way and most efficient way to do this type of diet IMO: keep your carb intake around 50g every day, 1x per wk have a cheat meal of whatever you want...junk it up. This one meal is not enough to throw you out of ketosis...it will for a short time, a few hrs but that's it. You will though ramp your metabolism up even more with this "cheat" meal and everything will work perfectly.
i think palumbo is light years ahead of everyone when it comes to this type of diet, and the above seems to be in accordance with what he would preach.
trace carbs and one junk meal that isn't enough to take you out of ketosis instead of yoy-yoing all over the place.
very sound advise.
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i think palumbo is light years ahead of everyone when it comes to this type of diet, and the above seems to be in accordance with what he would preach.
trace carbs and one junk meal that isn't enough to take you out of ketosis instead of yoy-yoing all over the place.
very sound advise.
Well, for those that have been around this board a while, it's no secret that I'm a pretty big fan of the Dave style diet.
...and you're right, he is light years ahead of most people on this type of diet. But give it time...before too long this style of dieting will be more common. Things that work well always find their way to the top.
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that's a great copy/ paste.
Thank You...and by the way....
That's why I made sure I posted the link to the full article.....so I wouldn't look like I was passing it off as my own post ;) ;) ;)
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Mega Man, since it takes approximately 3 days to get into ketosis, if you carbed up every wk end you would only be in ketosis 1 day per wk, therefore creating a huge rollercoaster that is unnecessary.
The easiest way and most efficient way to do this type of diet IMO: keep your carb intake around 50g every day, 1x per wk have a cheat meal of whatever you want...junk it up. This one meal is not enough to throw you out of ketosis...it will for a short time, a few hrs but that's it. You will though ramp your metabolism up even more with this "cheat" meal and everything will work perfectly.
So 50 carbs per day is enough to put you into ketosis???
I thought you had to consume less than that. I don't remember the exact amount but for some reason I imagined it to be much less than 50 grams?
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So 50 carbs per day is enough to put you into ketosis???
I thought you had to consume less than that. I don't remember the exact amount but for some reason I imagined it to be much less than 50 grams?
FIRST COUPLE DAYS YOU SHOULD GO ZERO CARBS..O..NONE..ZIPP...N ADA.. ONCE YOUR IN KETOSIS 50 GRAMS PER DAY WONT KNOCK YOU OUT, AS LONG AS THEY ARENT TAKEN ALL AT ONCE, AD ARENT HIGH GLYCEMIC.... THEY WILL BE TRACE CARBS IN NUTS, EGGS, AND GREEN VEGGIES....
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FIRST COUPLE DAYS YOU SHOULD GO ZERO CARBS..O..NONE..ZIPP...N ADA.. ONCE YOUR IN KETOSIS 50 GRAMS PER DAY WONT KNOCK YOU OUT, AS LONG AS THEY ARENT TAKEN ALL AT ONCE, AD ARENT HIGH GLYCEMIC.... THEY WILL BE TRACE CARBS IN NUTS, EGGS, AND GREEN VEGGIES....
Okay thanks...anyone got any links for this palumbo Jumbo diet????
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Okay thanks...anyone got any links for this palumbo Jumbo diet????
http://forums.musculardevelopment.com/showthread.php?t=2915
THE FIRST PAGE OF DAVE'S ALMOST 900 PAGE Q&A THREAD ON M D
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Okay thanks...anyone got any links for this palumbo Jumbo diet????
taken from his question/ answer thread at muscular development.
all information below is by dave palumbo and credit should be given to him as such.
everything you'll need to know to get you started:
Meal 1 6 whole Omega-3 eggs
Meal 2 8oz chicken with 1/2 cup raw almonds
Meal 3 50g whey with 2 tablespoons all natural peanut butter
Meal 4 8oz salmon with 1 cup asparagus with 1 tablespoon macadamia nut oil
Meal 5 50 g whey with 2 tablespoon PB
Meal 6 whole eggs
This is typically how I start off most clients diets.........then there's modifications along the way and I have to cater it according to how the client looks.
MEAL #1
5 whole eggs (make sure to buy OMEGA-3 EGGS from the supermarket. They contain virtually NO saturated fat and tons of good OMEGA-3 fats); add another 4 egg whites to this (they don’t need to be the Omega-3 ones; you can use liquid egg whites)
MEAL #2
SHAKE: 50g Whey Protein with 1 ½ tablespoon of All Natural Peanut butter (no sugar)
MEAL #3
"Lean Protein Meal": 8oz chicken with 1/2-cup cashew nuts (almonds, or walnuts)
MEAL #4
SHAKE: 50g Whey Protein with 1 ½ tablespoons of All Natural Peanut butter (no sugar added)
MEAL #5
"Fatty Protein Meal": 8oz Salmon, Swordfish, or RED MEAT with a green salad (no tomatoes, carrots, or red peppers) with 1 tablespoon of Olive Oil or Macadamia nut oil and vinegar
MEAL #6
SHAKE: 50g Whey with 1 ½ tablespoon all natural peanut butter or 4 whole (Omega-3) eggs and 4 extra whites
1. You said the sample diet is for @ a 220# BBer. I am @ 270 (reasonably lean) and was wondering how much (if any) I should increase protein/fat for the additional 50 lbs? Eat at least 300g protein, 150g fat
2. I am unclear on exactly how many veggies I can eat without affecting my ability to achieve ketosis. I've seen you reference 1 cup, is this per meal or per day? Keep extra veggies to a minimum. Take JUICE PLUS+ for your fruits and veggeis (without the carbs)
3. A recommendation on whey protein that I can pick up at Vitamin Shoppe/GNC. I travel quite a bit, so I prefer not to worry about having things shipped to me. Purchase a pure whey isolate. I'll have my own brand ISOLYZE out relatively soon!
________________________ ________________________ ________________________
1. Do you carb up the last weekyes
2. If so what amount of carbs do you usevaries by person. Usually 30-50grams per meal
3. What are your carb sources white rice and some potatoes, grits)
4. When do you stop water12 hours before show
5. Do you sodium depleteonly when taking diuretics, the last 24 hours
Q nr2: I have my own bodybuilding & fitness store over here in Europe, Sweden & can use all supplements I want..what would you use?As for supplements, I suggest sticking with a good Whey protein, creatine, and an essential fatty acid supplement (Omega-3 fish oil (3000mg per day) and Evening Primrose oil (2600mg per day)
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Sounds like you strained the ligaments in your knee. Take 6000mg glucosamine per day and 6000mg MSM per day............. also, purchase hydrolyzed beef collagen (pills or powder) and do 2 servings per day.
Hydrolyzed beef collagen is what you find in unflavored jello. It's pulverized, purified, connective tissue. It's the raw materials of what all our connective tissue (cartilage, ligaments, tendons) are made of. You need protein to repair muscle............theref ore, you need collagen to repair connective tissue. GREAT LAKES makes a few brands (powder and pills). HYPERLINK "http://www.amazon.com/Great-Lakes-Unflavored-Gelatin-16-Ounce/dp/B000KPWLBG" \t "_blank" http://www.amazon.com/Great-Lakes-Un.../dp/B000KPWLBG
I'm a believer in a good whole food supplement. I've mentioned it before: Juice Plus+ gives you 12 servings of fruits and veggies in 4 pills (no sugar, no fiber). HYPERLINK "http://www.juiceplus.com/nsa/pages/Home.soa?site=dp02724" \t "_blank" http://www.juiceplus.com/nsa/pages/H...a?site=dp02724
I also believe in taking a good calcium supplement (I use Coral Calcium: 1500mg per day). Remember, all calcium supplements should be balanced with magnesium as well.
I finish off my daily supplementation with 2 specific essential fatty acid supplements: Omega-3 Fish Oil pills (1000mg 2-3x per day) and Evening Primrose oil (1300mg 2x per day)
All supplements should be taken with meals.
You have to be careful of overdosed clenbuterol. Clen happens to be a very specific Beta-2 Agonist (which means it works predominantly on the blood vessels, bronchial tubes, and fat cells), however, when dosages get too high and blood pressure drops too severely, the heart will be forced to beat faster to maintain blood pressure. This results in palpitations and occasionally arrhythmias. Be careful. Try not to take more than 20mcg at a single dosing. That means if you're taking 80mcg per day......you should take 4 doses of 20mcg.
CARDIO should be performed at a low intensity (under 120bpm heartrate). This will ensure that you use FAT as a fuelsource since as your heartrate increase, carbohydrates begin to become the preferred fuel of choice for the body. When on a low carb diet, you're body will break down muscle and turn that into carbs. Remember, Fat CANNOT be changed into carbs. Therefore, for bodybuilding, the rule of cardio should be LONG DURATION, LOW INTENSITY
CARDIO:
I walk on the tredmill at 100bpm (the most) for 30 min (although I hardly ever do cardio). Forge the incline, forget going super fast. Just walk 30 min-90 min (I increase cardio as people get closer to competition) at a leasurely pace.
HIGH INTENSITY CARDIO
During high intensity cardio, the body requires ATP (energy) quickly and the oxidation of fatty acids take too long to generate sufficient ATP to keep up with the requirements, so the body automatically switches its metabolic machinery over to anaerobic respiration (which can only use glucose as a fuel source). This produces much less ATP, but it generates it at an extremely quick rate. In the absence of carbs in the diet, the body must synthesize its own glucose from amino acids. The best source of amino acids in the body is lean muscle tissue. So, when doing high intensity cardio in a diet absent in carbs, the body will break down muscle and turn it into glucose. Remember, fats cannot be turned into glucose (IMPOSSIBLE!)
LIPOLYZE with T3/Clen.................Skip the Ephedra-- You know I don't like stimulants; they stress out the body too much.
POST WORKOUT:
(1) Pre-contest: No carbs, No vitargo, No sugar period! Stick with your whey and all natural peanutbutter shake.
ALDACTONE
I hate aldactone. Why? Because aldactone works by inhibiting the hormone aldosterone. Aldosterone's job in the body is to reabsorb sodium and water. If you inhibit aldosterone's actions (with aldactone) and for some reason you happen to deplete out too much sodium to the point where you start cramping (a very common occurance), you have NO RECOURSE. Why? Because no matter how much sodium you take in, the body's ability to reabsorb it is "dead". With a balanced diuretic like DYAZIDE, which works by actively causing the kidney tubules to excrete sodium and water, if you happen to overdue it and you start cramping, the ingestion of a packet of salt with a shot glass full of water will easily re-balance your electrolytes and solve the problem (because aldosterone is still functioning normally).
Dave how would you dose and cycle of T3 and clen? Also would you take them all at once for a particular dose or split it up? Take 20mcg Clenbuterol 2x per day (increase by 20mcg per day every 2-3 weeks). Try not to exceed 120mcg per day). Cytomel: 25mcg per day (increase by 12.5mcg per day every 2-3 weeks) Try not to exceed 75mcg per day.
Always split up the dosage of clenbuterol (20mcg per dose).
How many grams of fat should i take in per meal?
I am currently sitting around 225-228@5%bf standing 5'11 and I have really good vascularity and I am seperating nicely now on this diet. I am lucky if i get 20min of cardio in 4xweek. But my goal is to win my pro card at this show, being in the hvywt class and this is only my 4th show that I have done in 3 yrs.
So if i am understanding this diet correctly, my body will us gluconeogenisis from the fats and proteins to sustain energy.
Will my muscles stay hard while on this diet?
Finally, where should my sodium and h2o intake be at now and what does the final week of prep look like as for caloric intake to fill out.
thanks for your help I do appreciate it.
First off, you seem to be a very dedicated bodybuilder who yearns for EXACT MEASURES and QUANTITIES. And I have to say that you are on the right track and that is the best way to succeed. The problem is that on a MESSAGE BOARD I'm speaking "IN GENERAL" to 1000's of people......therefore, it's impossibly to give exact quantities. The premise of the diet is high protein (about 1- 1 1/2 gram per pound), moderate fat (about 1/2 g per lb) and low low carbs (no direct sources of carbs). During this diet, the brain goes into ketosis (it uses ketone bodies for energy-- fats) and thus the energy requirements by the body can almost all be supplied by fats (which you'll be taking in plenty of). The only activity that uses carbs will be the weight workout which may use 40grams per workout. You will get these 40g indirectly through the foods you'll be eating. As a backup, the cheat meal you'll be having once per week will provide a storehouse of glycogen (glucose) in case of emergency. So, you see, very little gluconeogenesis in the liver will be occurring. If we keep cortisol low (by restricting STIMULANTS) we'll ensure that muscle is spared!
INCLUDEPICTURE "http://forums.musculardevelopment.com/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif" \* MERGEFORMATINET
Dave,
Would a female, 120lbs, 5'4 just cut this diet in half in terms of quantities? Therefore:
meal 1 3 whole omega-3 eggs
meal 2 4oz of chicken with 1/4 cup raw almonds
meal 3 25g whey with 1 tblsp all natural peanut butter
meal 4 4oz of salmon with 1 cup asparagus with 1 tblsp macadamia nut oil.
meal 5 25g whey with 1 tblsp of peanut butter
meal 6 3 whole omega-3 eggs.
Thanks!
meal 1 3 whole omega-3 eggs 2 whole with 6 whites
meal 2 4oz of chicken with 1/4 cup raw almonds 5oz
meal 3 25g whey with 1 tblsp all natural peanut butter 35g whey
meal 4 4oz of salmon with 1 cup asparagus with 1 tblsp macadamia nut oil.
meal 5 25g whey with 1 tblsp of peanut butter 35g whey
meal 6 3 whole omega-3 eggs. 2 whole and 6 whites
When you are aiming to suck out the last bit of fat from your body, and you stated to try 2 x days Protein/Veg then 2 x days Protein/Fat.
Would you you drop even your Fish oils/Promrose oils on the no fat days? NO
Would you go even longer without fats if you needed to lose more body fat? YES
And would you drop the re-feed meal 1 x per week?
Or reduce this meal to alot less carbs? Depends on how far behind the person falls.
You metioned to take in 25-50g of carbs when carbing up,
is this the dry wieght of rice, cooked wieght, or carbs content of the food? 25g carbs is the carb count......whether or not you're asleep or awake......cooked or uncooked!
I know you have trained lots of indviduals have you always used the carb load techniques? pretty much!
Have they always been succesful? Yep, conservative works well when determing carb content
Alot of bodybuilders I know just eat up the last week, to have continuity, and to ensure no spill over by carbing up?
I know everyone is different, in general does it work with most? YES
1.) Can I consume red meat on your diet? YES
2.) How about Sausages and hams? No
3.) Can I cook my meats in olive or canola oil? yes but mac nut oil taste great as well and contains omega fatty acids!!!
4.) Does consuming saturated fats have any benefits on your diet?no answer...leave for dave
5.) What spices, seasonings or condiments are allowed in your diet?sugar free low sodium I use mustard and splenda mixed together...thanks to colette
6.) Is it okay to use non-caloric sugar substitutes like splenda and equal while on your diet? yes aslo diet soda is ok too
And REMEMBER......... All KETOSIS means is that your BRAIN is no longer burning glucose (carbs) for energy; it's using FAT ......and because we never run out of fat, the brain has a virtually unlimited source of energy..... therefore, no low blood sugar, no hunger cravings, no mood swings, and no irritability!
1.) Do you think the SupeerSlow Protocol (5/5/ or 10/10) is an effective fway to stimulate muscle growth? not thrilled with it. It's too gimicky!
2.) What"s your opinion on abbreviated routines such as Heavy Duty, HIT and DC Training? I like these methodogies better. I don't believe they are abbreviated......they are complete routines given their general philosophy.
3.) What are the oils that you allow in your diet?
a.) Extra Virgin Olive Oil yes
b.) Olive Oil no
c.) Safflower Oil no
d.) Sunflower Oil no
e.) Corn Oil no
f.) Coconut or Palm Oil no
g.) Extra Virgin Coconut Oil decent
h.) Sesame Oil ok
i.) Peanut Oil ok
j.) Butter no
4.) Do you allow frying or stir-frying meat, fish or poultry in your diet? better to grill, poach, or bake
5.) Is Mayo allowed in your diet?? small amount
6.) Can I lose bodyfat faster if I progressively lower the fat content of a Palumbo Diet? you'll defeat the purpose.........
7.) Do I have to restrict my sodium intake while on your diet? no
8.) What are the condiments and spices you allow in your diet? anything that doesnt have sugar
9.) Do you believe that a Calorie is a Calorie regardless of the source when it comes to weight (bodyfat) control? no way!
10.) Is it normal for my muscles to feel flat and soft while while in your diet? probably in the beginning
s it ok to add splenda packets to my shakes to make them taste sweater???LIMIT SPLENDA TO 4 packets per day.
im follwong your diet , but im going to have in two of the meals some carbs brown rice ,veggies,or grits.
i know you dont tell people to do that but , if i add that to my diet what will happen?? just curious. You'll probably have a tough time losing weight.
will i stay lean and hard ? im not competing for a show, just to look more defined and get leaner. but i need my varbs as long as they are good carbs.Depending on your metabolism, it will work to some extent; however, since you won't be in KETOSIS, you'll probably feel like crap.
Dave does T3 affect your sleep patterns? I have used ephedrine before and found that even taking it at 3pm it was keeping me awake for a while at night. I dont like stimulants, thats why im turing to T3 instead, but i want to make sure before i get it that it wont affect my sleep!
Just FYI i was going to start at 25mcg/day i wont need more than that will i? Stimulants are not great if you like to sleep at night. I only suggest T3 if you're on an active contest diet. If you want to try to non-stimulant fat burners, give LIPOLYZE (daytime fat burner) and SOMALYZE (night time fat burner) from my SPECIES line of products. I think you'll be pleased. HYPERLINK "http://www.speciesnutrition.com" \t "_blank" www.speciesnutrition.com
If you DO use T3, start out with 25mcg and increase by 12.5mcg per day every 2-3 weeks leading up to the show.
Is it true that you can take up to 12.5mcg of T3 and not have it suppress your own system? If you take 25mcg for a few months, how long does it take your own system to kick back in. I read horror stories on other boards and was just wondering what your educated opinion was. Thanks Dave.
Horror stories about people and cytomel usually come from people who STOPPED WORKING OUT and ATE ALL KINDS OF JUNK FOOD for 2 months after their show. And they wonder why they turned into fat slobs?
hey Dave, thanks for answering my last question, i have a question bout clen, how is the best way to take it, and for how long would be most effective? I asked Derek just wondering what your opinion would be, thanksI usually start guys off at 20mcg 2x per day and add an additional 20mcg every 2-3 weeks (never exceeding 120mcg per day).
Why do you say limit splenda to only 4 per day(I sometimes have more like 10), I thought it was calorie free and therefore could not stimulate insulin or increase blood sugar? It's sugar free. It contains 1g carbs per packet. 20 packets= 20g carbs..........got the message? Stick to STEVIA BALANCE (it tastes pretty good when you’re starved).
I am looking for a detailed explanation of why the body does NOT NEED carbs for normal functioning like the brain and cns. I have a few people questioning the diet and there is just nothing I can say to prove the point. I know that after 3-4 days the body will convert fats for energy but any other explanations would be great!! Thanks in advance.
Explain to me WHY the body needs carbs? It's purely a fuel source........... if the brain can use an alternative fuel (fats), then it no longer needs the carbs. The only thing that requires carbs is the weight training session which probably only uses about 40-50g (which you get indirectly from the diet or from the stored glycogen from the cheat meal).
How long would it be ok to stay on the clen for after you have pyramid up would it be ok to stay on from now until the end of september, THat's a long time. Usually 20 weeks is tops......24 if you stretch it.
i guess what im confused about are the fact if you eat too many veggies with that sabbotage the diet? i feel hungry as crap when i just eat protien and veggies
I'm sure you ARE hungry........it's a tough diet. You must limit yourself to 1 cup of green fibrous veggies like asparagus, broccoli, cauliflower, or green beans.
T3... start with 25mcg and work your way up...
And do you suggest T3 or T4 with GH and at what dose if so? T3 and ONLY when dieting for a competition.
I liked GH but felt very tired all the time on it, R-Ala seemed to help a little but it was still an issue. Any ideas on how to combat this? Your availability to the BB community here on the net is much appreciated. The tiredness may stem from the rapid weight gain that occurs with GH usage.... (usually from fluid in the muscles)
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WoW!!!!! Thanks Candizzle, no one, and Arnold Jr, and everyone else for your help in this thread....
I think I'll give dieting and ketosis a try without insulin....since I'm not even a competitor anyways...
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WoW!!!!! Thanks Candizzle, no one, and Arnold Jr, and everyone else for your help in this thread....
I think I'll give dieting and ketosis a try without insulin....since I'm not even a competitor anyways...
good idea.
good luck.
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WoW!!!!! Thanks Candizzle, no one, and Arnold Jr, and everyone else for your help in this thread....
I think I'll give dieting and ketosis a try without insulin....since I'm not even a competitor anyways...
IF YOU DO THIS DIET RIGHT, DO YOUR CARIO, AND ARE RUNNTING YOU TEST AND TREN, YOUR GONNA GET IN PHENOMENAL SHAPE BRO !
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Very Good Choice Mega Man...........