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Getbig Bodybuilding Boards => Steroids Info & Hardcore => Topic started by: jtsunami on July 20, 2008, 11:35:06 PM
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I was planning to do another cycle before christmas this year, this is what I was thinking,
weeks 1 - 10 1,500 mg test e / week 750 mon 750 thurs
that is it, simple, I am not sure what to do with pct, last time I just used gh pct and had my test levels checked a month or two after cycle and everything was normal except the doc said he could still see some traces of aas in raised something levels, test levels where back in normal range. Any opinions on this?
jt
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No AI? No finasteride?
I'd rather use 1ml ed than 3ml at once. Does Mon/Thurs suit your split?
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Sounds great...nolva and clomid for PCT.
Why so short?
Good luck!
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to make sure you dont do soemthing stupid, do NOT follow oveloads advice... EITHER nolva or clomid. not both.
you might want to run hcg , and an ai through pct as well.
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Not gonna use a Ai I had my gyno cut out. I'd rather inject less frequently, and the 3ml shots don't affect me that much if I use the thigh or tricep I have noticed.
I'm just get tired of the shots after 10 weeks and the strick diet I will be on.
jt
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Not gonna use a Ai I had my gyno cut out. I'd rather inject less frequently, and the 3ml shots don't affect me that much if I use the thigh or tricep I have noticed.
I'm just get tired of the shots after 10 weeks and the strick diet I will be on.
jt
ai in pct isnt for gyno its to help keep test high as possible and to avoid estro rebound when you cut out the serm
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to clarify for overload, he means EITHER nolva or clomid. not both. you might want to run hcg , and an ai through pct as well.
I disagree 100%
An AI for PCT is a very bad idea.
Have you ever run PCT before?
Nolva and/or Clomid is all he will need...HCG is ok, but not needed for a 10 week cycle.
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to clarify for overload
Please refrain from speaking for me.
Thank you,
8)
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Please refrain from speaking for me.
Thank you,
8)
changed it fo ya :D
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Candi, JT knows what he is doing and what works for him, as he has been around for a while. Ive known him for years on other boards. People have been using both clomid and nolva for PCT for a very long time, with very good results. I know guys who swear by clomid and nolva PCT's and recover very well. What doesn't work for one may very well work for another. I always use an AI during PCT and recover flawlessly. The AI is not only to keep natural test high as possible, but to also ward off estrogen rebound. I will not recommend just any ai though, as some will screw with liver values, and igf-1. The only ai I feel that should be used during PCT is aromasin. Liver values, and igf-1 is not affected by aromasin, but it can raise test levels significantly.
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I was planning to do another cycle before christmas this year, this is what I was thinking,
weeks 1 - 10 1,500 mg test e / week 750 mon 750 thurs
that is it, simple, I am not sure what to do with pct, last time I just used gh pct and had my test levels checked a month or two after cycle and everything was normal except the doc said he could still see some traces of aas in raised something levels, test levels where back in normal range. Any opinions on this?
jt
Hey JT, Nice simple cycle. I'm with Overload though, why so so short, just as you start getting the gains from this your quitting. Nobody likes a quitter bro...JK. I personally would run this a minimum of 12, but probably more like 16-20. Good luck mang!
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On paper there is no reason to inject your test-e more then 2x/wk, on paper 1xwk will work.
However, eod/injections work a lot better IMO. You will feel much better, you will feel much more stable. Yes, you would be pinning more, but even when it's a long estered test like test-e, injecting it and spreading it through the wk as much as you can always makes a big difference.
AI's Overload is right...AI's are not best if not used during PCT...but like 4th said, what doesn't work for some may work well for others.
Last thing, nolva and clomid, is my personal preference with any PCT...yes, that's right, both nolva and clomid along with HCG at the beginning.
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On paper there is no reason to inject your test-e more then 2x/wk, on paper 1xwk will work.
However, eod/injections work a lot better IMO. You will feel much better, you will feel much more stable. Yes, you would be pinning more, but even when it's a long estered test like test-e, injecting it and spreading it through the wk as much as you can always makes a big difference.
AI's Overload is right...AI's are not best if not used during PCT...but like 4th said, what doesn't work for some may work well for others.
Last thing, nolva and clomid, is my personal preference with any PCT...yes, that's right, both nolva and clomid along with HCG at the beginning.
The best & smoothest PCT I ever had was taking 50mg of Clomid & 20mg of Nolva everyday.
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yes nolva +clomid will work better, just as i am sure 200mg test enanthate + 200 mg test cypionate works much better than 200mg of either of them alone as wel... ::) ... lol
oh and in regards to ai in pct.... it doesnt matter what you htink works for you. your endocirine system functions the exact same as every other human beings.
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yes nolva +clomid will work better, just as i am sure 200mg test enanthate + 200 mg test cypionate works much better than 200mg of either of them alone as wel... ::) ... lol
Don't really know what to tell you...other then I've done it both ways. I've run PCT's with just nolva, with just clomid and with both...with both always works better...it's not a minimal difference either...it is a drastic improvement.
It's kind of like what I'm always talking about when it comes to long acting single estered test injections. On paper, all scientific data shows us that you only need 1 injection per wk...many studies would space it out to an even futher degree, such as every 10-14 days.
However, talk to every bodybuilder you've ever known and more then a few will swear by eod or even ed injection protocol with test-e or cyp...again, the difference is not a minimal difference.
oh and in regards to ai in pct.... it doesnt matter what you htink works for you. your endocirine system functions the exact same as every other human beings.
I'm not a fan of using AI's while on PCT, I never ever say "use an AI while on PCT." You're right, by the way the human body works it doesn't make sense IMO. But that doesn't mean it cannot be done and done well.
For example, take 20 guys and have them run either a cycle of just tren or just deca. Most all of them will experience a severe libido crash...erections will be a thing of the past. But I guarantee you there will be a few of them that do not experience this at all. There are a lot of guys out there that run either tren or deca without anything else...and on paper with everything we know about deca and tren, this should not be...they should be shut down and shut down hard. But they're not...so what some test or some case study says is not always applicable to every individual on the planet.
If the human body was identical, if everyone was the same on the inside and everyone functioned identically, then everyone of us who used AAS and trained hard would be as big as Ronnie Coleman.
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Don't really know what to tell you...other then I've done it both ways. I've run PCT's with just nolva, with just clomid and with both...with both always works better...it's not a minimal difference either...it is a drastic improvement.
It's kind of like what I'm always talking about when it comes to long acting single estered test injections. On paper, all scientific data shows us that you only need 1 injection per wk...many studies would space it out to an even futher degree, such as every 10-14 days.
However, talk to every bodybuilder you've ever known and more then a few will swear by eod or even ed injection protocol with test-e or cyp...again, the difference is not a minimal difference.
well i think on paper, once yu actually lok at ester half lifes and disperion raes....the science actually says regrdless of ester weight the minimum injeio frequency for stable blood levels is going to be no more then once every third day.
my point was that of course a bigger dose of serm will work bter. i dout its the combonaton of clomid +nolva, but the added mg of serm. because the are effectivel the same product.
I'm not a fan of using AI's while on PCT, I never ever say "use an AI while on PCT." You're right, by the way the human body works it doesn't make sense IMO. But that doesn't mean it cannot be done and done well.
For example, take 20 guys and have them run either a cycle of just tren or just deca. Most all of them will experience a severe libido crash...erections will be a thing of the past. But I guarantee you there will be a few of them that do not experience this at all. There are a lot of guys out there that run either tren or deca without anything else...and on paper with everything we know about deca and tren, this should not be...they should be shut down and shut down hard. But they're not...so what some test or some case study says is not always applicable to every individual on the planet.
If the human body was identical, if everyone was the same on the inside and everyone functioned identically, then everyone of us who used AAS and trained hard would be as big as Ronnie Coleman.
the reason i said an ai would be good is because once the serm starts up testosterone production, you want to get tha test levels as high as possible and which preventing aromatization does). and then, when you cut out the serm, if you hadn rn an ai, yo would have a huge ero rebound effect. so to prevent that run an ai through pct and for a short whle after you cut out the serm.
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Hey AJ why is it that you do not like AI's during PCT? I'm kind of curious to know why...
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Candy, going by scientific data is great...it should be the basis of what you do when it comes to this sort of thing...I cannot argue that. If you follow scientific and documented medical procedure then it will be hard to go wrong.
Even so, as long as what you're doing is not dangerous and is not a threat to your overall wellbeing, then I'd rather go by how I feel, what my results are etc.
Come on, even your beloved GH15 doesn't follow scientific protocol.
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i know and i dont consider him an expert anymore :D
lol
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Hey AJ why is it that you do not like AI's during PCT? I'm kind of curious to know why...
Honestly, and I know this will sound extremally stupid...so call me a dumb ass if you must, lol! But an AI during PCT does it's job to well...I'm talking about production of your natural hormones. Once you come off PCT, things seem to work better if you hadn't used an AI...that's all I'm getting at.
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Honestly, and I know this will sound extremally stupid...so call me a dumb ass if you must, lol! But an AI during PCT does it's job to well...I'm talking about production of your natural hormones. Once you come off PCT, things seem to work better if you hadn't used an AI...that's all I'm getting at.
This was my understanding and experience.
Blocking estrogen during PCT can lead to big problems.
Guys have been using Clomid/Nolva combos for years with no problems.
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Honestly, and I know this will sound extremally stupid...so call me a dumb ass if you must, lol! But an AI during PCT does it's job to well...I'm talking about production of your natural hormones. Once you come off PCT, things seem to work better if you hadn't used an AI...that's all I'm getting at.
Bro I would never call you a dumb ass! I was just curious, as I respect what you have too say and I always like to hear other peoples theories on PCT (keeps me thinking). I know Van does not like AI's in PCT either. You are correct though, Aromasin works very well, and is the only AI you will see me recommend in PCT. I have a very cool debate I will post here on the use of aromasin. I will post it tonight.
One more thing, the PCT I use and recommend is part of the on cycle HCG use also. I have not run a PCT with aromasin, without first using HCG on cycle. The combination of the two (on cycle HCG protocol, and Aromasin and clomid PCT) makes for a very smooth transition off cycle.
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This was my understanding and experience.
Blocking estrogen during PCT can lead to big problems.
Guys have been using Clomid/Nolva combos for years with no problems.
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Exactly...thinks for taking the words out of my mouth...I've been sitting at the PC way to long today...getting difficult typing my thoughts, lol!
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This was my understanding and experience.
Blocking estrogen during PCT can lead to big problems.
Guys have been using Clomid/Nolva combos for years with no problems.
8)
Thats why I recommend only aromasin as an ai during PCT it will not kill the estrogen. It will bring it down, but not kill it like some think. IGF-1 concentrations and liver values are not affected.
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you already are blocking estrogen from having any real physique effects by taking a serm. if the estrogen cant be used anyways, might as not not have any of it and have MORE test.
if your talking about cholestrol or libido or general health then yes i can see a problem with ai... but when talking straight physique issues...
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Exactly...thinks for taking the words out of my mouth...I've been sitting at the PC way to long today...getting difficult typing my thoughts, lol!
It's all GOOD!
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Thats why I recommend only aromasin as an ai during PCT it will not kill the estrogen. It will bring it down, but not kill it like some think. IGF-1 concentrations and liver values are not affected.
I've heard this as well and it sounds good, but i've never tried it.
I would stay away from Adex and Letro.
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This was my understanding and experience.
Blocking estrogen during PCT can lead to big problems.
Guys have been using Clomid/Nolva combos for years with no problems.
8)
I think the big problem is the misuse of AI's all together. A lot of guys overdo it and drive their estrogen into the ground. Proper use of an AI during a cycle and even in PCT can help manage aromatization issues that some people experience, it's not for everyone, but works extremely well for guys who use it properly.
I've seen a lot of people dismiss AI's all together but I think the problem is, just like with everything else in this game, there's a real lack of understanding on how to use AI's properly and that using a dose Joe Blow posted on some board for his cycle as your own dose isn't the best way to go about it. Plus there are different AI's all with different levels of response, i.e. Letro being very potent compared to say Aromasin all of which have varying levels of effectiveness at many different dose ranges.
I'm beginning to stop recommending use of AI's to newer people, with the exception of those that are very gyno prone, because I think it's really something they should run once they have a few cycles under their belt and know how they react without an AI first.
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I've heard this as well and it sounds good, but i've never tried it.
I would stay away from Adex and Letro.
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absolutely, the affect on igf-1 and the added negative effective on liver values would not help an already compromised liver. When I say compromised I am referring to just the stress from a bulking diet, and cycle alone. (hope that makes sense...)
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I think the big problem is the misuse of AI's all together. A lot of guys overdo it and drive their estrogen into the ground. Proper use of an AI during a cycle and even in PCT can help manage aromatization issues that some people experience, it's not for everyone, but works extremely well for guys who use it properly.
I've seen a lot of people dismiss AI's all together but I think the problem is, just like with everything else in this game, there's a real lack of understanding on how to use AI's properly and that using a dose Joe Blow posted on some board for his cycle as your own dose isn't the best way to go about it. Plus there are different AI's all with different levels of response, i.e. Letro being very potent compared to say Aromasin all of which have varying levels of effectiveness at many different dose ranges.
I beginning to stop recommending use of AI's to newer people, with the exception of those that are very gyno prone, because I think it's really something they should run once they have a few cycles under their belt and know how they react without an AI first.
I agree.
Proper use can benefit, but i have yet to see anyone benefit by using them.
Too many guys have no idea what they are doing by taking them.
I never recommend them.
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I was planning to do another cycle before christmas this year, this is what I was thinking,
weeks 1 - 10 1,500 mg test e / week 750 mon 750 thurs
that is it, simple, I am not sure what to do with pct, last time I just used gh pct and had my test levels checked a month or two after cycle and everything was normal except the doc said he could still see some traces of aas in raised something levels, test levels where back in normal range. Any opinions on this?
jt
Seems kind of basic.......you'd get more out of it if you stacked another anabolic and an oral at the very least.
Deca/Winstrol -or- Tren/Winstrol
DIV
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yes, definitely get more gains with more mg of androgens. i think he only wants to run 1500mg though.
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Seems kind of basic.......you'd get more out of it if you stacked another anabolic and an oral at the very least.
Deca/Winstrol -or- Tren/Winstrol
DIV
I would love to add some more stuff to it, but I am on a limited budget and the test is the cheapest thing I can get. I have never tried tren and would love to.
On the AI stuff, they make me feel terrible, with aromasin I can't sleep, with letro, my hair sheds like crazy. And with the anti-e nolva and clomid make me have arm pit sweats from just sitting around and ass sweats lol.
Call me crazy, but I was going to try and just do not pct with this and see how long it takes me to come back, a while back I did a primo only cycle for 6 weeks and did no pct and I never noticed anything different. I know the primo is much more less potent. I am in my 20's so maybe my balls will bounce back faster? Maybe keep the nolva or clomid on the side in case I can't come back. Has anyone tried this before?
jt
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Has anyone tried this before?
jt
I have...it was hard to get going again...I don't recommend it.
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OK cool thx Aj, I still might try it tbo, just to see, but will have nolva on hand. Would you recommend maybe something other than standard anti e's ai's as they make me feel horrible? Maybe just hcg or something like that? I have never tried HCG at all before.
jt
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I have...it was hard to get going again...I don't recommend it.
Same here.
HCG, Nolva and Clomid is all he should need to get him going again.
Everyone has their own opinion on dosage and duration.
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OK cool thx Aj, I still might try it tbo, just to see, but will have nolva on hand. Would you recommend maybe something other than standard anti e's ai's as they make me feel horrible? Maybe just hcg or something like that? I have never tried HCG at all before.
jt
there are some studies iw ill try to dind for you... they demonstrate that post cycle LH is not what takes a long time to bounce back, but testicular function is. what that means is that hcg is vital, while serms are not.
however serms still speed the process, since they immideitly start lh back up... where as without them it make take a few weeks...
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I think the big problem is the misuse of AI's all together. A lot of guys overdo it and drive their estrogen into the ground. Proper use of an AI during a cycle and even in PCT can help manage aromatization issues that some people experience, it's not for everyone, but works extremely well for guys who use it properly.
I've seen a lot of people dismiss AI's all together but I think the problem is, just like with everything else in this game, there's a real lack of understanding on how to use AI's properly and that using a dose Joe Blow posted on some board for his cycle as your own dose isn't the best way to go about it. Plus there are different AI's all with different levels of response, i.e. Letro being very potent compared to say Aromasin all of which have varying levels of effectiveness at many different dose ranges.
I'm beginning to stop recommending use of AI's to newer people, with the exception of those that are very gyno prone, because I think it's really something they should run once they have a few cycles under their belt and know how they react without an AI first.
Hi, i would consider myself a 'newer person' ... now would you say someone who has 'puffy nipples' or traces of gyno around a higher bodyfat (16-18%) but less obvious around lower % be 'more prone' i thought i'd ask this because its just impossible to find any info via searches.. and you seem to be knowledgeable :) thanks.
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Hi, i would consider myself a 'newer person' ... now would you say someone who has 'puffy nipples' or traces of gyno around a higher bodyfat (16-18%) but less obvious around lower % be 'more prone' i thought i'd ask this because its just impossible to find any info via searches.. and you seem to be knowledgeable :) thanks.
I wouldn't say you are more prone since we're talking different body fat levels. Most people would be "more prone" at higher body fat, especially at the 18% range. I'd just keep your diet in check and stay in the 12-14% range if you can and have an AI on hand in case you need it. It would also depend on what type of cycle you were running, say just a straight test cycle as opposed to a test, dbol, deca cycle in which case I'd probably say run a small dose throughout. In the case of AI's, more is definitely not better and finding the minimal dose needed to control aromatization is key. Start out low and slowly work up until there's no need to go higher.
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there are some studies iw ill try to dind for you... they demonstrate that post cycle LH is not what takes a long time to bounce back, but testicular function is. what that means is that hcg is vital, while serms are not.
however serms still speed the process, since they immideitly start lh back up... where as without them it make take a few weeks...
Hmm interesting, so just the HCG would suffice in getting your nuts back to normal it says?
jt
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I wouldn't say you are more prone since we're talking different body fat levels. Most people would be "more prone" at higher body fat, especially at the 18% range. I'd just keep your diet in check and stay in the 12-14% range if you can and have an AI on hand in case you need it. It would also depend on what type of cycle you were running, say just a straight test cycle as opposed to a test, dbol, deca cycle in which case I'd probably say run a small dose throughout. In the case of AI's, more is definitely not better and finding the minimal dose needed to control aromatization is key. Start out low and slowly work up until there's no need to go higher.
thanks man, at the moment im clean so theres no emergency or anything but yeah.. that was very helpful.. i've always wondered what really caused my 'gyno' i mean its really fine when im low bf but yeah when ive been more bulky its been worse
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thats a shit load of TEST!!!
why 1.5 grams per week? Are you a pro?
do 1 gram and 300 deca or something like that.