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Getbig Misc Discussion Boards => Religious Debates & Threads => Topic started by: Dos Equis on October 09, 2008, 11:02:01 AM
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I've been to three funerals/memorial services in the past week and just lost a friend yesterday. I'm not sure who came up with the funeral ritual, but I really don't like funerals. There may be laughs when you talk about the person, but overall funerals are just gloomy, sad, and depressing. I wish the tradition had never started.
It breaks my heart to see the widows and widowers at these services. I don't like death. I don't like having to deal with dying. I'm not afraid to die, but having to deal with the emotions involved when someone is dying, or has already died, is something I'd rather do without. It's one of the worst parts about living. It pains me to see healthy people become sick and die.
I don't really have a point, other than to say death, dying, and funerals suck.
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I don't really have a point, other than to say death, dying, and funerals suck.
I just finished a book that might be of interest. It’s called “What Happens When We Die” by Sam Parnia MD, PhD. He’s made an indepth study of Near Death Experiences (NDE’s) and actually attempted to test them (with interesting results, but of limited utility to the question at hand) and is very much grounded in science. It’s a fascinating read on a topic close to us all. Although I found the topic of NDE's interesting, I actually found his look at the nature of human consciousness even more interesting. A short review:
WHAT HAPPENS WHEN WE DIE is the title of a book by Dr Sam Parnia, MD, PhD, one of the world's leading scientific and medical researchers into NDEs (Near-Death Experiences).
Dr Parnia is a British-born medical specialist in pulmonary (lung) and critical care medicine. He has also been a world
Dr. Sam Parnialeader into afterlife research, with his outstanding studies that started when he worked at Southampton University and Southampton Hospital in the UK. This has since been followed by further research in the USA where Dr Parnia is today Fellow in Pulmonary and Critical Care Medicine at the very prestigious Cornell University, as well as working with some of the leading hospitals. Dr Parnia is also the Chairman of the Horizon Research Foundation.
Because he works daily with emergency care patients, many often being in critical as well as near-death situations, Dr Parnia is in a position to be able to deal with death and dying. It is because of being exposed to patients who have had NDEs and/or OBEs that his interest in this area started and has now developed into what it is: world-leading research and also this book. It is something anyone wanting to know more about the medical and scientific aspects of such things should read. It is also well written and very interesting, as well as illuminating and enjoyable.
The foreword is written by eminent medical person, Dr Peter Fenwick, BA, MB, BChir, DPM, FRC Psych, a consultant neuropsychiatrist and neurophysiologist to the Institute of Psychiatry in London, who poses a question that so many are now asking and on which Dr Parnia offers information, if not entire explanations, in his book: "Does the near-death experience occur and consciousness indeed continue when all brain functions are absent - something our current neuroscience regards as impossible - or does the near-death experience occur either before or after the cardiac arrest, although it is interpreted by the experiencer as occurring during unconsciousness?" This, of course, is something touched on in some of the many stories told in either of our own books, Death - The Ultimate Orgasm? and The Dying Experience and Learning How to Live, even if they are only anecdotal and thus not valid scientifically.
Dr Fenwick also expresses the hope that "after reading this story, wonderfully told by Dr Parnia, not only will more people develop an understanding of what happens when we die, but that more scientists, philanthropists and forward-looking scientific bodies will agree to conduct and support the next stage of this research and so help to push forward one of the final frontiers of neuroscience."
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I've been to three funerals/memorial services in the past week and just lost a friend yesterday. I'm not sure who came up with the funeral ritual, but I really don't like funerals. There may be laughs when you talk about the person, but overall funerals are just gloomy, sad, and depressing. I wish the tradition had never started.
It breaks my heart to see the widows and widowers at these services. I don't like death. I don't like having to deal with dying. I'm not afraid to die, but having to deal with the emotions involved when someone is dying, or has already died, is something I'd rather do without. It's one of the worst parts about living. It pains me to see healthy people become sick and die.
I don't really have a point, other than to say death, dying, and funerals suck.
Yes you are.
Either that or you're not fully aware of the fact that one day you will be gone.
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Dr Fenwick also expresses the hope that "after reading this story, wonderfully told by Dr Parnia, not only will more people develop an understanding of what happens when we die, but that more scientists, philanthropists and forward-looking scientific bodies will agree to conduct and support the next stage of this research and so help to push forward one of the final frontiers of neuroscience."
I fully support all efforts of science on this issue.
However, IMO neuroscience does and will not be able to explain neither human life nor death.
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I just finished a book that might be of interest. It’s called “What Happens When We Die” by Sam Parnia MD, PhD. He’s made an indepth study of Near Death Experiences (NDE’s) and actually attempted to test them (with interesting results, but of limited utility to the question at hand) and is very much grounded in science. It’s a fascinating read on a topic close to us all. Although I found the topic of NDE's interesting, I actually found his look at the nature of human consciousness even more interesting. A short review:
WHAT HAPPENS WHEN WE DIE is the title of a book by Dr Sam Parnia, MD, PhD, one of the world's leading scientific and medical researchers into NDEs (Near-Death Experiences).
Dr Parnia is a British-born medical specialist in pulmonary (lung) and critical care medicine. He has also been a world
Dr. Sam Parnialeader into afterlife research, with his outstanding studies that started when he worked at Southampton University and Southampton Hospital in the UK. This has since been followed by further research in the USA where Dr Parnia is today Fellow in Pulmonary and Critical Care Medicine at the very prestigious Cornell University, as well as working with some of the leading hospitals. Dr Parnia is also the Chairman of the Horizon Research Foundation.
Because he works daily with emergency care patients, many often being in critical as well as near-death situations, Dr Parnia is in a position to be able to deal with death and dying. It is because of being exposed to patients who have had NDEs and/or OBEs that his interest in this area started and has now developed into what it is: world-leading research and also this book. It is something anyone wanting to know more about the medical and scientific aspects of such things should read. It is also well written and very interesting, as well as illuminating and enjoyable.
The foreword is written by eminent medical person, Dr Peter Fenwick, BA, MB, BChir, DPM, FRC Psych, a consultant neuropsychiatrist and neurophysiologist to the Institute of Psychiatry in London, who poses a question that so many are now asking and on which Dr Parnia offers information, if not entire explanations, in his book: "Does the near-death experience occur and consciousness indeed continue when all brain functions are absent - something our current neuroscience regards as impossible - or does the near-death experience occur either before or after the cardiac arrest, although it is interpreted by the experiencer as occurring during unconsciousness?" This, of course, is something touched on in some of the many stories told in either of our own books, Death - The Ultimate Orgasm? and The Dying Experience and Learning How to Live, even if they are only anecdotal and thus not valid scientifically.
Dr Fenwick also expresses the hope that "after reading this story, wonderfully told by Dr Parnia, not only will more people develop an understanding of what happens when we die, but that more scientists, philanthropists and forward-looking scientific bodies will agree to conduct and support the next stage of this research and so help to push forward one of the final frontiers of neuroscience."
You didnt actualy say jack shit here, no attack on you will but you do ramble ALLOT.
Just like the time when you wrote a 2000 word essay on why a calorie is a calorie.
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You didnt actualy say jack shit here, no attack on you will but you do ramble ALLOT.
He mentioned death and dying, I talked about a book I just read that looks at exactly that, and added a review of the book. Not real hard to follow there sport. Carry on. ::)
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I fully support all efforts of science on this issue.
However, IMO neuroscience does and will not be able to explain neither human life nor death.
So now you're an expert on neuro science too? You seem to have no problem commenting on areas of science you have exactly zero training and background in. Read Dr. Parnia's works on the topic? Didn't think so. As per my usual criticism of your comments, making sweeping statements about areas you have no background in gets on people's nerves. Perhaps it's a language barrier thing, but it's annoying.
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So now you're an expert on neuro science now? You seem to have no problem commenting on areas of science you have exactly zero training and background in. Read Dr. Parnia's works on the topic? Didn't think so. As per my usual criticism of your comments, making sweeping statements about areas you have no background in gets on people's nerves. Perhaps it's a language barrier thing, but it's annoying.
One does not have to be an expert in a certain area of science to understand its restrictions. Rather, those experts most of the time have the blinders on when they cross the lines of their restrictions unknowingly and become pseudo-philosphers. You seem to come from a point, where there is no doubt whatsoever that (natural) science is the only valid body of knowledge there is, correct?
If I get on your nerves, just ignore my posts. If you want to have a civil discussion on the topic, I'm up for it. 8)
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One does not have to be an expert in a certain area of science to understand its restrictions. Rather, those experts most of the time have the blinders on when they cross the lines of their restrictions unknowingly and become pseudo-philosphers. You seem to come from a point, where there is no doubt whatsoever that (natural) science is the only valid body of knowledge there is, correct?
If I get on your nerves, just ignore my posts. If you want to have a civil discussion on the topic, I'm up for it. 8)
Silly argument IMO, in the end there is no concrete conclusion.
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Silly argument IMO, in the end there is no concrete conclusion.
Elaborate.
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One does not have to be an expert in a certain area of science to understand its restrictions.
False, and your generic sweeping statement to avoid reality. One does have to know enough about a topic to know it's strength and limitations ("restrictions" being the wrong word there) which is why people with computer science degrees should not make comments about the limitations of neuro science (especially minus actually reading the works of the author mentioned) as neuro scientists should not make comments about computer science.
Rather, those experts most of the time have the blinders on when they cross the lines of their restrictions unknowingly and become pseudo-philosphers.
Good scientists know the difference between science and philosophy, and doing the pseudo-wanna be-scientist in areas you don't have any background for has been your forte in all the threads of yours I get involved in.
You seem to come from a point, where there is no doubt whatsoever that (natural) science is the only valid body of knowledge there is, correct?
False.
If I get on your nerves, just ignore my posts.
Better yet, don't respond to mine with sweeping ignorant statements on topics you have zero background for.
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False, and your generic sweeping statement to avoid reality. One does have to know enough about a topic to know it's strength and limitations ("restrictions" being the wrong word there) which is why people with computer science degrees should not make comments about the limitations of neuro science (especially minus actually reading the works of the author mentioned) as neuro scientists should not make comments about computer science.
There are general restrictions to all natural sciences. They all operate on models of reality, they use certain methods and certain languages. What I was talking about has nothing to do with computer scientist against neuro scientist.
Good scientists know the difference between science and philosophy, and doing the pseudo-wanna be-scientist in areas you don't have any background for has been your forte in all the threads of yours I get involved in.
So what is the difference then? My experience is that they don't know. But I agree that good scientists would.
False.
So we agree.
Better yet, don't respond to mine with sweeping ignorant statements on topics you have zero background for.
The topic is death. To claim that natural science can say anything substantial (at least what I would call substantial) about it, is the sweeping ignorant statement IMO.
I don't know why you act so aggressive. I will repeat what I said in a different thread: if I have offended you in any way, I apologize. If you post in a forum, you will generally not be able to limit the group of people who are allowed to respond.
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I just finished a book that might be of interest. It’s called “What Happens When We Die” by Sam Parnia MD, PhD. He’s made an indepth study of Near Death Experiences (NDE’s) and actually attempted to test them (with interesting results, but of limited utility to the question at hand) and is very much grounded in science. It’s a fascinating read on a topic close to us all. Although I found the topic of NDE's interesting, I actually found his look at the nature of human consciousness even more interesting. A short review:
WHAT HAPPENS WHEN WE DIE is the title of a book by Dr Sam Parnia, MD, PhD, one of the world's leading scientific and medical researchers into NDEs (Near-Death Experiences).
Dr Parnia is a British-born medical specialist in pulmonary (lung) and critical care medicine. He has also been a world
Dr. Sam Parnialeader into afterlife research, with his outstanding studies that started when he worked at Southampton University and Southampton Hospital in the UK. This has since been followed by further research in the USA where Dr Parnia is today Fellow in Pulmonary and Critical Care Medicine at the very prestigious Cornell University, as well as working with some of the leading hospitals. Dr Parnia is also the Chairman of the Horizon Research Foundation.
Because he works daily with emergency care patients, many often being in critical as well as near-death situations, Dr Parnia is in a position to be able to deal with death and dying. It is because of being exposed to patients who have had NDEs and/or OBEs that his interest in this area started and has now developed into what it is: world-leading research and also this book. It is something anyone wanting to know more about the medical and scientific aspects of such things should read. It is also well written and very interesting, as well as illuminating and enjoyable.
The foreword is written by eminent medical person, Dr Peter Fenwick, BA, MB, BChir, DPM, FRC Psych, a consultant neuropsychiatrist and neurophysiologist to the Institute of Psychiatry in London, who poses a question that so many are now asking and on which Dr Parnia offers information, if not entire explanations, in his book: "Does the near-death experience occur and consciousness indeed continue when all brain functions are absent - something our current neuroscience regards as impossible - or does the near-death experience occur either before or after the cardiac arrest, although it is interpreted by the experiencer as occurring during unconsciousness?" This, of course, is something touched on in some of the many stories told in either of our own books, Death - The Ultimate Orgasm? and The Dying Experience and Learning How to Live, even if they are only anecdotal and thus not valid scientifically.
Dr Fenwick also expresses the hope that "after reading this story, wonderfully told by Dr Parnia, not only will more people develop an understanding of what happens when we die, but that more scientists, philanthropists and forward-looking scientific bodies will agree to conduct and support the next stage of this research and so help to push forward one of the final frontiers of neuroscience."
Sounds like an interesting book. I'm always looking for good books. Thanks for the recommendation.
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Yes you are.
Either that or you're not fully aware of the fact that one day you will be gone.
No I'm not.
What does the fact that I know I will be gone one day have to do with me being afraid of dying?
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No I'm not.
What does the fact that I know I will be gone one day have to do with me being afraid of dying?
Sounds pretty scary to me. But you're right, maybe that's just me.
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Sounds pretty scary to me. But you're right, maybe that's just me.
What's scary about it?
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I've been to three funerals/memorial services in the past week and just lost a friend yesterday. I'm not sure who came up with the funeral ritual, but I really don't like funerals. There may be laughs when you talk about the person, but overall funerals are just gloomy, sad, and depressing. I wish the tradition had never started.
It breaks my heart to see the widows and widowers at these services. I don't like death. I don't like having to deal with dying. I'm not afraid to die, but having to deal with the emotions involved when someone is dying, or has already died, is something I'd rather do without. It's one of the worst parts about living. It pains me to see healthy people become sick and die.
I don't really have a point, other than to say death, dying, and funerals suck.
Yes, funerals suck........Memorials actually can be less stressful, and people can share stories about the person. I have been to funerals that are very elaborate, and then very simple services....I believe that the simple funerals are better, if you compare them...Loss sucks, even when you know the person has been sick a longtime, or is on hospice......I am sorry about your loss, and I know that most people feel that "death sucks"....I also agree that the bereavement after the person dies is almost as difficult as the funeral, but we get through it!!! Again, I am sorry about your loss!!
My father used to say, "don't fear the "dead", its the living that will kill ya"!!
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The scariest thing to me is the possibility of never seeing those I care about the most again. I hope that there is a heaven and there's a huge party with all of those I love and care for. Slim chance but I can always dream.
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What's scary about it?
I only know life, and life I like very much. Death, I don't know other than it ends life as I know it.
The abstract thought of death can be very interesting of course, not necessarily scary.
However, if I allow my consciousness (resp. if it allows me) to fully grasp the vastness of it, I can't do anything else than stand in awe. Such moments don't come often in our society, which is specialized in obscuring and suppressing death completely.
But as I said, that's maybe just my experience.
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Tough sometimes to embrace not knowing.
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Tough sometimes to embrace not knowing.
You are a wise man.
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Tough sometimes to embrace not knowing.
Very True!
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Yes, funerals suck........Memorials actually can be less stressful, and people can share stories about the person. I have been to funerals that are very elaborate, and then very simple services....I believe that the simple funerals are better, if you compare them...Loss sucks, even when you know the person has been sick a longtime, or is on hospice......I am sorry about your loss, and I know that most people feel that "death sucks"....I also agree that the bereavement after the person dies is almost as difficult as the funeral, but we get through it!!! Again, I am sorry about your loss!!
My father used to say, "don't fear the "dead", its the living that will kill ya"!!
Thanks spotter. Your father was right. :)
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I only know life, and life I like very much. Death, I don't know other than it ends life as I know it.
The abstract thought of death can be very interesting of course, not necessarily scary.
However, if I allow my consciousness (resp. if it allows me) to fully grasp the vastness of it, I can't do anything else than stand in awe. Such moments don't come often in our society, which is specialized in obscuring and suppressing death completely.
But as I said, that's maybe just my experience.
I understand. Fear of the unknown is normal. I just tend not to worry about things outside of my control.
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I understand. Fear of the unknown is normal. I just tend not to worry about things outside of my control.
Ever been seriously sick? Just curious.
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Ever been seriously sick? Just curious.
Nope. I might catch one cold a year.
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Nope. I might catch one cold a year.
I was invincible once. How old are you?
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I was invincible once. How old are you?
:-X :) Not invincible. I just take good care of myself. Except for that very dangerous game of softball. . . .
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As I write this, I know I will be flamed and disbelieved. I have no reason to lie, I couldn't care less about changing anyone's opinion. I have never been a religious person, nor am I now. I was always skeptical that there was life after death, but was open to the possibility. Last year, the closest person in my life, someone I dated for 5 years when I was 18, and then remained extremely close for many years after, came down with stomach cancer last year. She died 3 months after being diagnosed and I spent virtually every day with her. We have promised we would try to communicate after she was gone. I read some books on EVP, electronic voice phenomenon and how people had supposedly picked up voices of the dead on recording devices. One day, I succeeded in picking up her voice, very clearly on my tape recorder, responding to me. Her sister confirmed to me that it was her voice and the EVP society analyzed my tape and saw that the soundwave pattern was indeed an EVP. Scientifically, I can't explain it except to say that an energy force may indeed survive death that contains consciousness. Of course religious people will say I was tricked by Satan, but I don't believe that.
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energy force may indeed survive death that contains consciousness.
If matter is merely a condensed form of energy, maybe the imaterial consciousness which is not entirely part of the material organism, simply consists of energy vibrating at a higher frequency which may indeed continue after "death" as we know it?
:D :P :-\ :D
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If matter is merely a condensed form of energy, maybe the imaterial consciousness which is not entirely part of the material organism, simply consists of energy vibrating at a higher frequency which may indeed continue after "death" as we know it?
:D :P :-\ :D
That's not a bad hypothesis. Consider this, 150 years ago, if you could go back in time and try to explain that in the future we would have a device that was able to receive invisible frequencies and that device could take those frequencies and transmit a picture with sound (Television), they would probably find it hard to believe. Many people are of the opinion that if science hasn't yet been able to explain a phenomenon, than it can't possibly exist. That assumption means we've progessed technologically as far as we can go. There could one day indeed be a device than can detect previously undiscovered sources of energy, including possibly one that emanates from our body when we expire.
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I fully support all efforts of science on this issue.
However, IMO neuroscience does and will not be able to explain neither human life nor death.
what aspects in particular?
they are doing a pretty good job of it so far.
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what aspects in particular?
they are doing a pretty good job of it so far.
Neuroscience describes the currently known scientific aspects of the brain resp. nervous system. It's actually not that far away from computer science. They meet in the field of neuronal networks and AI. The limitations of that specific model of reality have been elaborately discussed in the mentioned thread, e.g. starting at this post: http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=198162.msg2759258#msg2759258 (http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=198162.msg2759258#msg2759258)
Neuroscience is fine as long as the model it works on is understood. It does not explain consciousness.
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:-X
Are you female? ;D
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Neuroscience is fine as long as the model it works on is understood. It does not explain consciousness.
I am a neuroscience major so i know something about the brain and how it operates. However your last sentence is pure conjecture, your assuming it cannot explain consciousness and that consciousness is not a natural process, this is a fallacy again by you. We know that we can alter consciousness by altering brain function, its easy to make deductions from there and predictions. We dont have a complete theory yet, but will some day.
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I am a neuroscience major so i know something about the brain and how it operates. However your last sentence is pure conjecture, your assuming it cannot explain consciousness and that consciousness is not a natural process, this is a fallacy again by you. We know that we can alter consciousness by altering brain function, its easy to make deductions from there and predictions. We dont have a complete theory yet, but will some day.
Well I disagree. Most philosophers do. I brought my arguments in the aforementioned thread.
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Well I disagree. Most philosophers do. I brought my arguments in the aforementioned thread.
what philosophers? philosophers commenting on the physical? consciousness is a physical process, what can philosophy add that science cant here. Philosophers deluded by their own ME, there is no homonculus no spirit, just raw physical processes which can be changed via natural measures. I give you a hallucenogenic herb and your conciousness changes, what more of an argument can be put forth. I will give it to you that consciousnous seems like an emergent property, but i conclude this is due to lack of knowledge rather than reality.
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what philosophers? philosophers commenting on the physical? consciousness is a physical process, what can philosophy add that science cant here. Philosophers deluded by their own ME, there is no homonculus no spirit, just raw physical processes which can be changed via natural measures. I give you a hallucenogenic herb and your conciousness changes, what more of an argument can be put forth. I will give it to you that consciousnous seems like an emergent property, but i conclude this is due to lack of knowledge rather than reality.
Let's just agree to disagree. All the arguments have already been discussed in the thread I mentioned. No problem to have different opinions. I just don't want to repeat everything again, I'm much too lazy for that. ;D
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Let's just agree to disagree. All the arguments have already been discussed in the thread I mentioned. No problem to have different opinions. I just don't want to repeat everything again, I'm much too lazy for that. ;D
post the thread again please if you wouldnt mind. ;D
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post the thread again please if you wouldnt mind. ;D
just look a few posts above.
Edit: here ya go: http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=198162.0 (http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=198162.0)
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just look a few posts above.
Edit: here ya go: http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=198162.0 (http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=198162.0)
cool, ill look at the thread but im in the middle of studying for microbiology so i will have to get back to you in a bit. thanks.
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cool, ill look at the thread but im in the middle of studying for microbiology so i will have to get back to you in a bit. thanks.
No problem, good luck with your studies!
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Sounds like an interesting book. I'm always looking for good books. Thanks for the recommendation.
It's an interesting reading. Of course he does not answer the question if there's some life after death, but his work and book are well worth reading and do leave you feeling hopeful in that area.
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Are you female? ;D
lol. Nah. :D There are just a few little weirdos who follow me around the board trying to find out who I really am. :)
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It's an interesting reading. Of course he does not answer the question if there's some life after death, but his work and book are well worth reading and do leave you feeling hopeful in that area.
I will add it to my reading list. Thanks.
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I'll be going to another funeral. A friend of mine committed suicide. He was a husband, father, and grandfather. Two boys in college. I'm still sort of in a state of shock. I'd really like to know why, but only he can answer that question. I know suicide is a very selfish act, and he just turned his entire family into victims, but I just feel terrible for him because he must have been depressed, and lonely, and didn't think he could reach out to anyone for help. I just saw him last week and didn't have a clue. He looked and sounded the same (always happy). Man. You never know . . . .
I've never had a person I've known this well commit suicide. Not sure what to think.
My daughter asked me if someone who commits suicide can go to heaven. I don't know the answer. I say "yes," particularly if the person was clinically depressed. But who knows?
I do know that I hate death and dying. I'll be back to complain some more whenever I attend his funeral.
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I'll be going to another funeral. A friend of mine committed suicide. He was a husband, father, and grandfather. Two boys in college. I'm still sort of in a state of shock. I'd really like to know why, but only he can answer that question. I know suicide is a very selfish act, and he just turned his entire family into victims, but I just feel terrible for him because he must have been depressed, and lonely, and didn't think he could reach out to anyone for help. I just saw him last week and didn't have a clue. He looked and sounded the same (always happy). Man. You never know . . . .
I've never had a person I've known this well commit suicide. Not sure what to think.
My daughter asked me if someone who commits suicide can go to heaven. I don't know the answer. I say "yes," particularly if the person was clinically depressed. But who knows?
I do know that I hate death and dying. I'll be back to complain some more whenever I attend his funeral.
Very sorry about your friend, Beach. :( I will pray for his family and friends.
As for if a believer who commits suicide can go to heaven, I believe yes. Some people say that these people may lose any rewards they had coming to them, but I believe a believer's salvation is eternally secure.
John 3:16
“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.
Romans 8:38–39
For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
1 John 2:1-2
My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for[a] the sins of the whole world.
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Very sorry about your friend, Beach. :( I will pray for his family and friends.
As for if a believer who commits suicide can go to heaven, I believe yes. Some people say that these people may lose any rewards they had coming to them, but I believe a believer's salvation is eternally secure.
John 3:16
“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.
Romans 8:38–39
For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
1 John 2:1-2
My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for[a] the sins of the whole world.
Thanks Stella. I'll miss him. He was a really good guy.
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I'll be going to another funeral. A friend of mine committed suicide. He was a husband, father, and grandfather. Two boys in college. I'm still sort of in a state of shock. I'd really like to know why, but only he can answer that question. I know suicide is a very selfish act, and he just turned his entire family into victims, but I just feel terrible for him because he must have been depressed, and lonely, and didn't think he could reach out to anyone for help. I just saw him last week and didn't have a clue. He looked and sounded the same (always happy). Man. You never know . . . .
I've never had a person I've known this well commit suicide. Not sure what to think.
My daughter asked me if someone who commits suicide can go to heaven. I don't know the answer. I say "yes," particularly if the person was clinically depressed. But who knows?
I do know that I hate death and dying. I'll be back to complain some more whenever I attend his funeral.
Sorry for your lose, Beach.
His family is in my prayers.
Was he saved??
I've seen suicides/murders and how families react differently to those types of death.
We can be there for them but only God can provide the comfort someone needs in a time like that.
I agree with STella, nothing can seperate us from God once we accept His Son.
God may have some sort of punishment, IMO, but I don't want to find out what it is.
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Sorry for your lose, Beach.
His family is in my prayers.
Was he saved??
I've seen suicides/murders and how families react differently to those types of death.
We can be there for them but only God can provide the comfort someone needs in a time like that.
I agree with STella, nothing can seperate us from God once we accept His Son.
God may have some sort of punishment, IMO, but I don't want to find out what it is.
Thanks. I'm not sure. We talked business about 90 percent of the time, family about the other 10 percent, but never religion. I don't really know what his relationship with God was. I do know he was a good man. My suspicion is he did this for life insurance money for his family.
I rarely talk religion with people unless they ask.
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The topic is death. To claim that natural science can say anything substantial (at least what I would call substantial) about it, is the sweeping ignorant statement IMO.
Neuroscience can't say anything about only under the confines your closed mind has put upon it.
If a neuroscientist is of the belief that when we die then that is it; there is no spirit; the conscious mind is simply an elaborate representation of our environment (to give us survival advantages) via a complex organ known as the brain then I say neuroscience will one day explain it.
Your arguing technique by putting everything in the constraints of your spiritualistic mind is growing old. I'm sorry but this box you put around science which complies with your spirituality is a joke.
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Attended the service for my friend. It was at a Unitarian church. Very different. Looks like a living room. Service lasted 30 minutes. As much as I hate funerals, I have to say that is something I could at least tolerate.
The first speaker pretty much tackled the suicide issue head on, without specifically mentioning it, which I think was the right thing to do. No secrets on this island anyway. The coconut wireless is too good.
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The first speaker pretty much tackled the suicide issue head on, without specifically mentioning it, which I think was the right thing to do. No secrets on this island anyway. The coconut wireless is too good.
what did he say? I was about to post a topic asking about suicide etc. Then I saw this post.
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what did he say? I was about to post a topic asking about suicide etc. Then I saw this post.
Acknowledged that he was having financial problems, but said that he is the only one who can answer the "why" question. He was speaking directly to his kids. Said if anyone tries to tell them they know exactly why, they are probably lying or just clueless. They should never question whether their father was a good man or whether he loved them.
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ah ok.
thanks and sorry for your loss.
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ah ok.
thanks and sorry for your loss.
Thanks.
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The son of one of my friends was murdered. I'll be going to another funeral. I really hate this part of life. :-\
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Acknowledged that he was having financial problems, but said that he is the only one who can answer the "why" question. He was speaking directly to his kids. Said if anyone tries to tell them they know exactly why, they are probably lying or just clueless. They should never question whether their father was a good man or whether he loved them.
Beach, I'm so sorry about your friend as well as your other friend's son. :(
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i do not have the ability to die...
bench
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i do not have the ability to die...
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Maybe you have teh 9 lives
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Maybe you have teh 9 lives
i think i have already used up more than that...
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i think i have already used up more than that...
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Just the motorcycle video counts as 2!
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Just the motorcycle video counts as 2!
that was nothing........i am way worse on bikes that actually belong to me ;D
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that was nothing........i am way worse on bikes that actually belong to me ;D
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:o