Getbig Bodybuilding, Figure and Fitness Forums
Getbig Main Boards => Gossip & Opinions => Topic started by: wavelength on October 18, 2008, 01:26:39 PM
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If a natural bodybuilder would try to gain muscle mass while keeping his fat mass constant (no "bulking"), what would be a typical rate of muscle gain, A) as rookie and B) as advanced.
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You sahould be able to predict that as well as you can predict what one of the anonymous posters here on getbig looks like.
Jason
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depends on your genetics.
end of discussion.
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depends on your genetics.
end of discussion.
True, but what would be a realistic range? I think
A) 2-10lb / year
B) 0-2lb / year
Again, this is without changing (maybe even reducing) your fat mass.
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If a natural bodybuilder would try to gain muscle mass while keeping his fat mass constant (no "bulking"), what would be a typical rate of muscle gain, A) as rookie and B) as advanced.
Wait, is this natural bodybuilder allowed to use M1T?
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Wait, is this natural bodybuilder allowed to use M1T?
No pro-hormones, "pro-steroids", AS, GH, etc.
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True, but what would be a realistic range? I think
A) 2-10lb / year
B) 0-2lb / year
Again, this is without changing (maybe even reducing) your fat mass.
100% depends on your genetics. whats realistic for one person is not for another.
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100% depends on your genetics. whats realistic for one person is not for another.
Yes, but it will probably be a Gauss distribution, with most people within a certain range. Let's take genetic freaks (best 5%) and non-responders (worst 5%) out of the picture. Or better, let's just say the person has avarage genetics in this regard.
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Yes, but it will probably be a Gauss distribution, with most people within a certain range. Let's take genetic freaks (best 5%) and non-responders (worst 5%) out of the picture. Or better, let's just say the person has avarage genetics in this regard.
Wave, It will be slow. Very slow. Could be a lb or 2 a year. May not even make that. As your calories will be remaining low(ish) you will be hard pressed to see any gains. Over time they will come. Although a Test Dball cycle would help :-)
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No pro-hormones, "pro-steroids", AS, GH, etc.
I know a guy with gyno who used m1T by the bucketload, but he's still natural dude.
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Yes, but it will probably be a Gauss distribution, with most people within a certain range. Let's take genetic freaks (best 5%) and non-responders (worst 5%) out of the picture.
depends on your genetics, your diet,training etc.
if youve been bodybuilding a while you probably wont gain much if at all, if you want to put on a non-negligable amount muscle naturally you need to put on to least a little fat, you cant expect to gain at or below caloric maitinence which is what it takes to not put on any fat.
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Wave, It will be slow. Very slow. Could be a lb or 2 a year. May not even make that. As your calories will be remaining low(ish) you will be hard pressed to see any gains. Over time they will come. Although a Test Dball cycle would help :-)
That's exactly what I'm thinking, maybe more in the first two years (rookie gains).
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depends on your genetics, your diet,training etc.
if youve been bodybuilding a while you probably wont gain much if at all, if you want to put on a non-negligable amount muscle naturally you need to put on to least a little fat, you cant expect to gain at or below caloric maitinence which is what it takes to not put on any fat.
OK, let's assume avarage genetics and perfect diet and training. What do you think the rates are for rookies (first 2 years) and advanced lifters? I just want a wild guess.
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5-10lbs a year for 5 years then 0lbs a year.
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OK, let's assume avarage genetics and perfect diet and training. What do you think the rates are for rookies (first 2 years) and advanced lifters? I just want a wild guess.
1-2lbs a year for both, max. you can gain shit at or below caloric maitinence.
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5-10lbs a year for 5 years then 0lbs a year.
I highly doubt that. If we take the middle of 7.5lbs, it would mean that if I start out with let's say 10% bodyfat at a weight of 150lbs, I would end up weighing 188lbs with 8% bodyfat after 5 years. I think that's impossible for a natural with avarage genetics.
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1-2lbs a year for both, max. you can gain shit at or below caloric maitinence.
I think as a rookie (first two years), gains could be higher, but other than that, I agree.
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my (natural) friend put on 25lb of pure muscle in his first year. i however would be lucky to put on even 5 quality pounds a year. pasta seems to be helping though.
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That's exactly what I'm thinking, maybe more in the first two years (rookie gains).
You have leaned out very well so any rookie gains you would have made from a bulk are not really going to happen now. You are going to have to up the calories to grow dude. Although nothin wrong with being lean year round and settling for small gains.
my (natural) friend put on 25lb of pure muscle in his first year. i however would be lucky to put on even 5 quality pounds a year. pasta seems to be helping though.
Unlikely to be pure muscle
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my (natural) friend put on 25lb of pure muscle in his first year. i however would be lucky to put on even 5 quality pounds a year. pasta seems to be helping though.
::) sure "John Matrix"
(http://www.syncgaming.com/UserFiles/Image/news/52006/earthjim2screen1.jpg)
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btw- A better question is, whats the maximum amount of muscle a natural can gain in their lifetime.
Imo its around 30lbs.
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::) sure "John Matrix"
is there a problem around, method?
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is there a problem around, method?
yes, you admit that you do 0 leg training and then make claims of 25lbs of muscle gain in a year
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You have leaned out very well so any rookie gains you would have made from a bulk are not really going to happen now. You are going to have to up the calories to grow dude. Although nothin wrong with being lean year round and settling for small gains.
The question has nothing to do with me, it has a different background. I read a study that suggests a 30lb/year increase. Although this was not the main focus of the study, I would think that something must be wrong with it.
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yes, you admit that you do 0 leg training and then make claims of 25lbs of muscle gain in a year
re-read my post.
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my (natural) friend put on 25lb of pure muscle in his first year. i however would be lucky to put on even 5 quality pounds a year. pasta seems to be helping though.
I highly doubt the 25lb of pure muscle.
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The question has nothing to do with me, it has a different background. I read a study that suggests a 30lb/year increase. Although this was not the main focus of the study, I would think that something must be wrong with it.
Study is flawed or has a sponsor behind it pushing a supplement. No natural gains 30lbs lean a year
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btw- A better question is, whats the maximum amount of muscle a natural can gain in their lifetime.
Imo its around 30lbs.
Good call. In my 10 years of training, I maybe gained 25lbs of lean mass (right now I'm below that due to injuries last year).
I also don't think the rate is significantly higher with bulking and cutting.
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I highly doubt the 25lb of pure muscle.
all i know is he went from 155 ish to 185 ish with no noticeable decrease in leanness, his bench went up almost a hundred pounds. obviously it wasnt 100% muscle but it seems like most of it was? he was just a guy with great genes for strength and thickness gains. poor structure though
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Heavily dependant on genetics.
i would say for me, i have to put on about 14 pounds to gain an extra inch on my arms.
I think that is achieveable within 6 months if you REALLY work hard. I am talking scheduled eating etc...
How much are you willing to sacrafice. You will shock yourself if you REALLY put the effort in. Not just for 1 week of "good eating"
6 months of solid eating with gradual lean weight gain will produce amazing results. Up the numbers on the bar, and the numbers on the scale
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all i know is he went from 155 ish to 185 ish with no noticeable decrease in leanness, his bench went up almost a hundred pounds. obviously it wasnt 100% muscle but it seems like most of it was? he was just a guy with great genes for strength and thickness gains. poor structure though
Well, bodyfat % is hard to measure and even harder to guess. A good way to check is to get down to very low BF values (< 8%) and see how much muscle is left. Some people e.g. look pretty lean at 15%, others look fat at 10%. However, almost everybody is surprised at how much weight must be lost to get below 8%.
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Heavily dependant on genetics.
i would say for me, i have to put on about 14 pounds to gain an extra inch on my arms.
I think that is achieveable within 6 months if you REALLY work hard. I am talking scheduled eating etc...
How much are you willing to sacrafice. You will shock yourself if you REALLY put the effort in. Not just for 1 week of "good eating"
6 months of solid eating with gradual lean weight gain will produce amazing results. Up the numbers on the bar, and the numbers on the scale
You are telling me that as a natural advanced lifter you can put on 14lbs of lean muscle mass in 6 months? Or are you talking 14lbs of body weight?
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Well, bodyfat % is hard to measure and even harder to guess. A good way to check is to get down to very low BF values (< 8%) and see how much muscle is left. Some people e.g. look pretty lean at 15%, others look fat at 10%. However, almost everybody is surprised at how much weight must be lost to get below 8%.
is that you in your avatar?
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is that you in your avatar?
Yes, pic from two weeks ago.
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Fair question...
Age is something that also has to be added into this equation
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You are telling me that as a natural advanced lifter you can put on 14lbs of lean muscle mass in 6 months? Or are you talking 14lbs of body weight?
Not all lean muscle, However to see significant changes in your physique you must make a significant change in BODY WEIGHT
Alot of time Natural lifters think they have hit a wall, when in fact they simply are not adding body weight like they were during their "newbie gains" and this is because they simply are not putting the effort in with the diet.
Alot of guys think they are eating alot, but in reality they may eat alot one day, then just hit maintinence for the next few days.
If you are consistently eating slightly above maintinence then your body weight will shift upwards and you WILL SEE CHANGES IN YOUR PHYSIQUE.
Q for u : I assume you think you have a hit a wall? The past year you feel like you have nto made the changes that you made when u first started? I was exactly the same.....then i realised.....i had been (give or take 7-10lb) the same weight for about a year.
Once i started eating consistently the weight started coming on....and guess what....my physique started changing.....the bigger you get, the more food you have to consume.....and most people have a problem with that.
Bottom line : WANT A SIGNIFICANT CHANGE IN YOUR PHYSIQUE? ADD BODY WEIGHT SLOWLY BUT CONSISTENTLY.....its HARD WORK
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Not all lean muscle, However to see significant changes in your physique you must make a significant change in BODY WEIGHT
Alot of time Natural lifters think they have hit a wall, when in fact they simply are not adding body weight like they were during their "newbie gains" and this is because they simply are not putting the effort in with the diet.
Alot of guys think they are eating alot, but in reality they may eat alot one day, then just hit maintinence for the next few days.
If you are consistently eating slightly above maintinence then your body weight will shift upwards and you WILL SEE CHANGES IN YOUR PHYSIQUE.
Q for u : I assume you think you have a hit a wall? The past year you feel like you have nto made the changes that you made when u first started? I was exactly the same.....then i realised.....i had been (give or take 7-10lb) the same weight for about a year.
Once i started eating consistently the weight started coming on....and guess what....my physique started changing.....the bigger you get, the more food you have to consume.....and most people have a problem with that.
Bottom line : WANT A SIGNIFICANT CHANGE IN YOUR PHYSIQUE? ADD BODY WEIGHT SLOWLY BUT CONSISTENTLY.....its HARD WORK
Of course, I know that I have to add weight to add muscle. I can easily gain 14lbs or 1 inch on my arm, I have absolutely no problem with that. The question is what part of it is muscle and how much remains when you get lean again.
I have hit several walls in my years of training and used different methods of breaking through.
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Fair question...
Age is something that also has to be added into this equation
Translation: I'm old. ;D
I'm 35 BTW, not exactly the spring chicken either.
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wave if you are talking about that study i posted it does not suggest 30lbs of muscle gain in a year - however with correct training - nurition including timing - yes it is more than possible to gain that amount.
remember correct timing increases protein synthesis 400% - that 4x as much potential muscle, add correct training, with emphasis on low rep/heavy weight and this potentially increases again. if you cannot gain 30lbs in a year you are doing something very very wrong.
i have personally went from around 148lbs to around 290's. now i'm not saying that was all muscle, but i would guess fat was no more than 60 lbs.
that study also showed the addition of creatine increases anabolic effects further -through its own mechanisms,so it is more than achievable to gain 0.5lbs a wek for 10 weeks :-\
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wave if you are talking about that study i posted it does not suggest 30lbs of muscle gain in a year - however with correct training - nurition including timing - yes it is more than possible to gain that amount.
remember correct timing increases protein synthesis 400% - that 4x as much potential muscle, add correct training, with emphasis on low rep/heavy weight and this potentially increases again. if you cannot gain 30lbs in a year you are doing something very very wrong.
i have personally went from around 148lbs to around 290's. now i'm not saying that was all muscle, but i would guess fat was no more than 60 lbs.
that study also showed the addition of creatine increases anabolic effects further -through its own mechanisms,so it is more than achievable to gain 0.5lbs a wek for 10 weeks :-\
Yes I am talking about that study and I'm calling BS on the 2.7kg LBM in 10 weeks (= 30lb/year) for an avarage natural lifter (while losing fat!!!). I would even call the 1.5kg BS for the other group. Or was it a study on juicers?
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Yes I am talking about that study and I'm calling BS on the 2.7kg LBM in 10 weeks (= 30lb/year) for an avarage natural lifter (while losing fat!!!). I would even call the 1.5kg BS for the other group. Or was it a study on juicers?
hahahahaha the study lasts for 10 weeks - they gained 2.7kg in that time, that does not mean they will keep gaining at that rate for a year ::)
again 0.5 lbs a week muscle gain is more than possible - although maybe not while sticking to the adonis/wavelength principles.
instead of calling bs - why don't you look at your protein intake/overall calories/workout routine/add in pre/post supplementation like that study does and try it yourself.
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hahahahaha the study lasts for 10 weeks - they gained 2.7kg in that time, that does not mean they will keep gaining at that rate for a year ::)
again 0.5 lbs a week muscle gain is more than possible - although maybe not while sticking to the adonis/wavelength principles.
instead of calling bs - why don't you look at your protein intake/overall calories/workout routine/add in pre/post supplementation like that study does and try it yourself.
I'm aware of how long the study lasts. I could not find information of how long the participants have been training before. Maybe such gains are possible for a few individuals under certain circumstances (e.g. if they never lifted in their lifes before, if they were carb depleted, etc.).
And as I said, I have tried. I have tried many different methods.
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I'm aware of how long the study lasts. I could not find information of how long the participants have been training before. Maybe such gains are possible for a few individuals under certain circumstances (e.g. if they never lifted in their lifes before, if they were carb depleted, etc.).
And as I said, I have tried. I have tried many different methods.
they were all trained athletes - not newbie gains. however they all did max-ot type workouts, so if they were doing lighter volume workouts before, it would have been a massive change, and produced added results.
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they were all trained athletes - not newbie gains. however they all did max-ot type workouts, so if they were doing lighter volume workouts before, it would have been a massive change, and produced added results.
What type of athletes?? If they trained runners than we are not interested. We are bbers for god’s sake and we can pack more than that. But if we put on 5lbs in 10 weeks than we must have done something wrong. And yes I mean lean muscle mass
I train hi intensity with 5-6 meals a day and I am able to put more that that with whey protein and creatine alone
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depends on your genetics.
end of discussion.
Yup
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What type of athletes?? If they trained runners than we are not interested. We are bbers for god’s sake and we can pack more than that. But if we put on 5lbs in 10 weeks than we must have done something wrong. And yes I mean lean muscle mass
I train hi intensity with 5-6 meals a day and I am able to put more that that with whey protein and creatine alone
I think his point was a different one. Anyway:
What do you think is your rate of lean body mass gain? Are you telling me that as a natural, it is higher than 30lb/year?
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I think his point was a different one. Anyway:
What do you think is your rate of lean body mass gain? Are you telling me that as a natural, it is higher than 30lb/year?
30-40 lbs is the max in a fucking lifetime for a natural, you can eat all the protein in the world or lift heavier and heavier weights, but theres a limit to how much muscle the body can maintain without drugs.
with drugs people who respond well like all IFBB pros can add 3x to that natural limit
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my (natural) friend put on 25lb of pure muscle in his first year. i however would be lucky to put on even 5 quality pounds a year. pasta seems to be helping though.
"pure muscle" ::)
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0-5 pounds a year, if its not your first year of training.
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0-5 pounds a year, if its not your first year of training.
I would say more like 0-2 lbs/year.
5lbs/year as an advanced natural lifter = genetic freak. Most pros don't gain that much, at least not in their later years.
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What type of athletes?? If they trained runners than we are not interested. We are bbers for god’s sake and we can pack more than that. But if we put on 5lbs in 10 weeks than we must have done something wrong. And yes I mean lean muscle mass
I train hi intensity with 5-6 meals a day and I am able to put more that that with whey protein and creatine alone
i don't like your tone bitch >:( ;D
yes they were resistance excercise trained - not runners.
and i agree with you it is more than possible to put on that amount of muscle -this study only studied the effects of a protein/carb/creatine supplement pre/post workout or at another time of the day. - the pre/post gained 2.7kg of muscle - the other 1kg or so. Normal daily dit was unchanged - so they could have in theory addd much more muscle mass if they had increased their protein intake over all.
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Here are some shots from years ago that show some natural muscle gain in two years while staying lean. First shot taken at 21 years old weighing 155 pounds at 5'9".
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2 years later at 178
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another one who believes and is living proof 8)
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2 years later at 178
If you've been natural (no pro-hormones, AS, etc.) at that time, that's pretty amazing.
However, still far away from 2.7kg/10 weeks.
According to the study, you could achieve that by not even caring about your food timing (1.5kg/10 weeks), if we assume that the study shows avarage progress which could be sustained over two years.
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If you've been natural (no pro-hormones, AS, etc.) at that time, that's pretty amazing.
However, still far away from 2.7kg/10 weeks.
According to the study, you could achieve that by not even caring about your food timing.
thats not what it says - in fact its the exact opposite.
you could gain 2.7kg if you used proper timing - and creatine/protein/carbs
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thats not what it says - in fact its the exact opposite.
you could gain 2.7kg if you used proper timing - and creatine/protein/carbs
Yes I know. The other group (incorrect timing) had a progess of 1.5kg/10 weeks. If we assume that this could be sustained over 2 years, it's exactly his progress.
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Yes I know. The other group (incorrect timing) had a progess of 1.5kg/10 weeks. If we assume that this could be sustained over 2 years, it's exactly his progress.
the benefits of correct nutrient timing is amazing isn't it 8) ;D
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the benefits of correct nutrient timing is amazing isn't it 8) ;D
I'm pretty sure, he used "correct" timing. This means, he should have weighed 217lbs after 2 years. Even if we assume that progress dimishes steadily to let's say half of it over the two years, it would still be 200lbs in the same condition. And you said yourself, the study didn't even max out the potential. So let's say, if he did everything correct, he should have been the first natural Mr. Olympia at 240 shredded. Just saying.
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I have added maybe on average 10lbs a year at a very similar b/f
This is weight not muscle...before ppl start shouting bullshit its water and glycogen etc
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I have added maybe on average 10lbs a year at a very similar b/f
This is weight not muscle...before ppl start shouting bullshit its water and glycogen etc
Are you natural?
For how many years have you sustained this progress?
How many of it do you think would be left if you diet down to under 8% BF?
How many lb/year do you think you could have gained if you kept your fat mass constant or even sligthly reduced it?
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Yes I am natural.
Been training over 4 years now.
I dont understand the third uestion mate.
Em i reckon i could have gained around the same as i am fairly lean anyway, abs etc. I am just too lazy to eat properly though recently i have started eating like a horse and am really adding size people now noticing it.
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You seem like a guy who approaches things very systematically Wave, but all the analyzing in the world won't change your genetics.
Lift right, eat right and whatever happens is what's gonna happen.
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Yes I am natural.
Been training over 4 years now.
I dont understand the third uestion mate.
Em i reckon i could have gained around the same as i am fairly lean anyway, abs etc. I am just too lazy to eat properly though recently i have started eating like a horse and am really adding size people now noticing it.
Well, "fairly lean" and "abs showing" is not really a good measure of someone's BF. Unless you get pretty lean, you just don't know how much of the gained weight is muscle.
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ok since i started i have added maybe 1-2% of b/f max. Though my b/f is constant
It was so lean back then as i was still growing and very young. Plus i never ate much
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You seem like a guy who approaches things very systematically Wave, but all the analyzing in the world won't change your genetics.
Lift right, eat right and whatever happens is what's gonna happen.
I agree that genetics plays a big role. That's why I said, leave out the genetic freaks and non-responders. I'm just talking about the avarage joe.
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ok since i started i have added maybe 1-2% of b/f max. Though my b/f is constant
It was so lean back then as i was still growing and very young. Plus i never ate much
Any before and recent pics?
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I'm pretty sure, he used "correct" timing. This means, he should have weighed 217lbs after 2 years. Even if we assume that progress dimishes steadily to let's say half of it over the two years, it would still be 200lbs in the same condition. And you said yourself, the study didn't even max out the potential. So let's say, if he did everything correct, he should have been the first natural Mr. Olympia at 240 shredded. Just saying.
how do you know he used correct timing ? - he hasn't mentioned it. also did he use creatine as well as pro/carbs ???
ye of little faith ;D
goudy is a testement to what proper training alone can do for mass and strength - add in corrent nutrition and timing and ....... BOOOM 8)
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how do you know he used correct timing ? - he hasn't mentioned it. also did he use creatine as well as pro/carbs ???
ye of little faith ;D
goudy is a testement to what proper training alone can do for mass and strength - add in corrent nutrition and timing and ....... BOOOM 8)
That was exactly my point. He (ChemistV2) could have easily been 200lbs or heavier in the same condition, right?
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Any before and recent pics?
Only before ones i have are when i was at school in uniform though plenty of recent pics?
Is that ok?
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Only before ones i have are when i was at school in uniform though plenty of recent pics?
Is that ok?
Sure. Only if you want to post them, of course.
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Sure. Only if you want to post them, of course.
around 189 here before i started training september 04
second is from summer 05 around 199
here is me in october/nov o6 215lbs
summer 07 220ish...had arm injury
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around 189 here before i started training september 04
second is from summer 05 around 199
here is me in october/nov o6 215lbs
summer 07 220ish...had arm injury
That is some serious mass, mad props to you!
BF seems to be pretty low in the second pic, hard to say for the last two.
In any case, amazing size for a natural!
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In any case, amazing size for a natural!
he has amitted to using pro-hormones on many occasions.
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That was exactly my point. He (ChemistV2) could have easily been 200lbs or heavier in the same condition, right?
yes exactly 8)
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yes exactly 8)
You're a nutter. ;D
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You're a big muscular nutter who understands the true power of pre/post workout nutrition ;D
fixed ;D
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he has amitted to using pro-hormones on many occasions.
Is that true Goudy?
Because that's not what I would consider natural.
How about ChemistV2?
Tremendous gains in any case of both of you, congrats! 8)
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Is that true Goudy?
Because that's not what I would consider natural.
How about ChemistV2?
Tremendous gains in any case of both of you, congrats! 8)
Thanks. No, when these pics were taken, Pro-hormones hadn't come out yet.
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Is that true Goudy?
Because that's not what I would consider natural.
How about ChemistV2?
Tremendous gains in any case of both of you, congrats! 8)
Wrong guy. Never taken PH
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If a natural bodybuilder would try to gain muscle mass while keeping his fat mass constant (no "bulking"), what would be a typical rate of muscle gain, A) as rookie and B) as advanced.
No idea... as Im FAT! :D
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No idea... as Im FAT! :D
Brutal honesty. ;D