Getbig.com: American Bodybuilding, Fitness and Figure
Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: Tre on November 04, 2008, 09:21:44 PM
-
Give the man his props.
With the exception of saying that Hillary would be the #2, his predictions were money.
A year ago, I said that Obama would not win because of his name. I was wrong. Very wrong.
God bless the USA.
-
Getbig----
Every time you've debated a topic with a thick-headed neocon, there have been dozens of people reading it.
Every time you have proven Bush or mccain in a lie, there have been dozens of people reading it.
The internet led to the demise of Rovian tactics. message boards ended that kind of fearmongering.
Every time you pointed out a contradictory statement by mccain.
Every time you pointed out the hypocracy and lies of Iraq.
Every time you questioned events that were orchestrated.
You spoke to dozens who then spoke to dozens of their friends. You changed history. We all did it. You know who you are. You didn't just accept what FOX or CNN fed you - you looked at alternative sources of info and you found your own truth, and you debated it with your peers.
We changed history. Tell your fcking grandkids one day. You were a part of the web revolution. You inserted transparency into the political spectrum. Obama will be squeaky clean from minute 1 because he HAS to be.
-
Getbig----
Every time you've debated a topic with a thick-headed neocon, there have been dozens of people reading it.
Every time you have proven Bush or mccain in a lie, there have been dozens of people reading it.
The internet led to the demise of Rovian tactics. message boards ended that kind of fearmongering.
Every time you pointed out a contradictory statement by mccain.
Every time you pointed out the hypocracy and lies of Iraq.
Every time you questioned events that were orchestrated.
You spoke to dozens who then spoke to dozens of their friends. You changed history. We all did it. You know who you are. You didn't just accept what FOX or CNN fed you - you looked at alternative sources of info and you found your own truth, and you debated it with your peers.
We changed history. Tell your fcking grandkids one day. You were a part of the web revolution. You inserted transparency into the political spectrum. Obama will be squeaky clean from minute 1 because he HAS to be.
Indeed. The Internet is the citizens tool to hold us all accountable.
-
i called this shit the same time TIME magazine called it --- way back i 2004 when they put obama on the cover after the DNC speech.
-
Very naive voters....you voted for radical socialism, Obama made no bones about it. He was elected because of 1. The media (I said this long ago).
2. He baught the election by way of lieing about not taking public contributions.
And 3......because he's black. (1/2 black)
Not one person can convince me it was because of his policy ideas, especially since he's changed at least 3 times on every issue thats been brought up.
-
Very naive voters....you voted for radical socialism, Obama made no bones about it. He was elected because of 1. The media (I said this long ago).
2. He baught the election by way of lieing about not taking public contributions.
And 3......because he's black. (1/2 black)
Not one person can convince me it was because of his policy ideas, especially since he's changed at least 3 times on every issue thats been brought up.
Do you consider him to be half-white or half-black?
-
240 you arent supposed to be talking politics, you are supposed to be getting back in shape
-
Very naive voters....you voted for radical socialism, Obama made no bones about it. He was elected because of 1. The media (I said this long ago).
2. He baught the election by way of lieing about not taking public contributions.
And 3......because he's black. (1/2 black)
Not one person can convince me it was because of his policy ideas, especially since he's changed at least 3 times on every issue thats been brought up.
he said he supported public contributions, di he ever say he would use them as his sole source of campaign funds? i dont think he did. he did not ever lie.
changing your mind is much better than having a closed mind. issues are not so simple and straight forward and easy to figure out. most al issues are complex and have many valid points on both sides of the argument. flip flopping is just a negative term used by unintelligent people who dont understand someone who understands the complexities ad is objective enough to make them all known.
-
240 you arent supposed to be talking politics, you are supposed to be getting back in shape
Today was rest day again - i spent the day working polling stations as employee, then driving fmaily member to vote. i'm too tired to move. drank whey shakes and are bananas all night. dieting correctly doesn't take all that much more time.
-
Very naive voters....you voted for radical socialism, Obama made no bones about it. He was elected because of 1. The media (I said this long ago).
2. He baught the election by way of lieing about not taking public contributions.
And 3......because he's black. (1/2 black)
Not one person can convince me it was because of his policy ideas, especially since he's changed at least 3 times on every issue thats been brought up.
Joe, didn't you say it yourself that the only reason Obama won, was the shitty economy recently? I know most repub pundits agree - Mccain led until the $ collapse.
if so, then doesn't that mean people chose based upon their perceptions of his policy?
-
Well Rob, since all trails lead to the Dems for economy downfall...no I didn't, ask Barney Frank. It was the media that won this for Obama not Obama.
-
Well Rob, since all trails lead to the Dems for economy downfall...no I didn't, ask Barney Frank. It was the media that won this for Obama not Obama.
There was a huge budget surplus under Clinton (as much as I disliked the guy)
There was a huge deficit under Reagan, Bush 1 and Bush 2.
That pretty much sums it up, eh?
-
We went over this a million times Rob, the final year to year and a half Clinton has this country heading into a recission. Bush inherited it and it lead to the biggest economic turn around in recent memory DURING wartime. The rhertoric is getting old Rob!
-
We went over this a million times Rob, the final year to year and a half Clinton has this country heading into a recission. Bush inherited it and it lead to the biggest economic turn around in recent memory DURING wartime. The rhertoric is getting old Rob!
Joe, you're right. War did stall the recession. That is why Bush started them.
However, war in and of itself is not sustainable. Bush borrowed 5 trillion bucks. Clinton sure as hell never did that, nor did anyone else. Bush borrowed more $ than every other president COMBINED
You can't blame the dems for that - bush said if they didn't pass his $ bills, they hated the troops. So, they gave him the $.
-
Good call 240. You were "on" all the way.
-
YOUR BOTH NOT VERY OBJECTIVE
one wants to blindly support dems one wants to blindy supprt repubs
fact is BOTH are responsible
did economic down turn start in late 90's ? yup. whose to blame ? BOTH clinton and the repub congress. the repub congress for their idealogy and clinton for being a pussy and a slave to the polls and allowing them to do whatever they wished
now my friends THAT is called being objective
-
now the US citizens need to rise up and take back what was once a great country.
which will mean trading off some "freedoms" to get some security- so kids dont get shot to pieces whilst trick or treating.
you guys MUST do evertything you can to get rid of the right to bear arms in the constitution. Sure those who want to will get hold of them, but the country is crap and dangerous with anyone able to just tote a weapon.
The rest of the world would be in awe of the US if things like that changed. Currently we just shake our heads and think- thank fuck we dont live in that place.
...i expect many flames...so bring it on rednecks!
-
As a citizen of another country on another continent I am happy about the choice you guys made. There are many problems in global economics and politics at the moment and how Obama will deal with them remains to be seen, but at least this is a very positive beginning and a different one too.
-
I must say I was impressed by 240 throughout this campaign----more so than any other getbigger arguing for either candidate, 240 had teh most concise, logical and intelligent arguments hands down.
While people like Coach wanted to argue vague and deceitful slandering points, 240 kept it about the issues and the state of our country and how Obama would be the best choice for the future.
-
What condition was the economy in when Clinton was elected?
-
Obama will be squeaky clean from minute 1 because he HAS to be.
::)
Politics 101: Good intentions will be abridged by the Rules of the Game. See: Jimmy Carter.
-
he said he supported public contributions, di he ever say he would use them as his sole source of campaign funds? i dont think he did. he did not ever lie.
changing your mind is much better than having a closed mind. issues are not so simple and straight forward and easy to figure out. most al issues are complex and have many valid points on both sides of the argument. flip flopping is just a negative term used by unintelligent people who dont understand someone who understands the complexities ad is objective enough to make them all known.
Well put.
-
Rob,
Where will Obama proposed 1 Trillion in new spending going to come from since we are running in the red (and have been) for years??
Welcome to the land of higher taxes!!
I cant wait for the fee health care, boy o boy I hope its better than the VA!
-
Give the man his props.
With the exception of saying that Hillary would be the #2, his predictions were money.
A year ago, I said that Obama would not win because of his name. I was wrong. Very wrong.
God bless the USA.
Or as NoBama's pastor would say........&$%#&@^ the USA!
-
What condition was the economy in when Clinton was elected?
DOW was 3000 the day Clinton toon office in Jan 1993.
DOW was 10,000 the day Bush took office in Jan 2001.
-
Where will Obama proposed 1 Trillion in new spending going to come from since we are running in the red (and have been) for years??
He's going to tax the shit out of those rich individiuals and corporations earning millions per year.
Just like Clinton did.
-
DOW was 3000 the day Clinton toon office in Jan 1993.
DOW was 10,000 the day Bush took office in Jan 2001.
And you can thank the Republicans, who took control of EVERYTHING but the Presidency, in 1994 for that.
Newt Gingrich was President of this country from 1994-2000 and he was one of the best Presidents we've ever had.
-
Well Rob, since all trails lead to the Dems for economy downfall...no I didn't, ask Barney Frank. It was the media that won this for Obama not Obama.
Joe, the Bush tax cuts remain in place for another year. Obama will likely sunset them.
Don't get all excited now.
I must say I was impressed by 240 throughout this campaign----more so than any other getbigger arguing for either candidate, 240 had teh most concise, logical and intelligent arguments hands down.
While people like Coach wanted to argue vague and deceitful slandering points, 240 kept it about the issues and the state of our country and how Obama would be the best choice for the future.
thank you. As someone who has debated with you for years, that means a lot :)
-
Newt is an extremely intelligent man...too bad his family issues have prevented him from running. Newt could run marathons around Bush. The combination of Newt and Bill Clinton was good for this country. The Pelosi-Reid-Obama connect worries me greatly...but I have some hope in Obama to moderate them.
We do not know enough about Obama and how he will govern, but we will find out quickly. I will go into this with an open mind.
"changing your mind is much better than having a closed mind"
Absolutely and I think Obama is capable of this because of his intelligence. I'm all him changing you mind...as long as its him moving more to the center. ;D
-
This election is a real life Manchurian Candidate. It's quite funny....and sad.
-
This election is a real life Manchurian Candidate. It's quite funny....and sad.
Exactly. Our country's complete transition to syle over substance is complete.
-
I must say I was impressed by 240 throughout this campaign----more so than any other getbigger arguing for either candidate, 240 had teh most concise, logical and intelligent arguments hands down.
Well, maybe, if you ignored the 400+ threads of false accusations about Palin.
-
Well, maybe, if you ignored the 400+ threads of false accusations about Palin.
Many are still unproven, and weren't pursued because she would get pity vote. Letting her destroy herself with her own words was adequate.
there is a polygraph test PASSED which said she had an affair. She refuses to sue nat'l enquirer for it - even tho they are BEGGING her to do so.
The birth certificate doesn't exist, hospital records were deleted, and every image of her pregnancy (where she had no bump at 7 months) were removed from the state of alaska website.
The story? Her water broke at 5 AM. She hung out in TX all day, gave a speech, then flew 9 hours home. She then drove 45 minutes past two major medical centers in alaska to go to her own private doctor, where zero record of the childbirth took place. No birth cert. Nothing.
Yep... 24 hours after her water broke with a premature severely mentally handicapped child, 2 plane rides (including one where she posed for pics with no baby bump - 20 hours after WATER BREAKS!).
It's a lie. Yes, yes it is. Protecting her kid, which many of us would do. Everyone decided it was just easier to let her sink her own ship.
-
Getbig----
Every time you've debated a topic with a thick-headed neocon, there have been dozens of people reading it.
Every time you have proven Bush or mccain in a lie, there have been dozens of people reading it.
The internet led to the demise of Rovian tactics. message boards ended that kind of fearmongering.
Every time you pointed out a contradictory statement by mccain.
Every time you pointed out the hypocracy and lies of Iraq.
Every time you questioned events that were orchestrated.
You spoke to dozens who then spoke to dozens of their friends. You changed history. We all did it. You know who you are. You didn't just accept what FOX or CNN fed you - you looked at alternative sources of info and you found your own truth, and you debated it with your peers.
We changed history. Tell your fcking grandkids one day. You were a part of the web revolution. You inserted transparency into the political spectrum. Obama will be squeaky clean from minute 1 because he HAS to be.
-
Very naive voters....you voted for radical socialism, Obama made no bones about it. He was elected because of 1. The media (I said this long ago).
2. He baught the election by way of lieing about not taking public contributions.
And 3......because he's black. (1/2 black)
Not one person can convince me it was because of his policy ideas, especially since he's changed at least 3 times on every issue thats been brought up.
U proved to be a blockhead, nothing new. Nothing but more drivel here.
Predicting an Obama win was not that challenging actually.
-
Here's a letter i just got from a friend and i'm right there with him (no need to debate me, i'm just sharing :-*)-
I voted for McCain and Palin--I really prefer that team, but I sincerely hope that my vote was misplaced. I still support Senator McCain and Governor Palin (I hope that she will return in a later election), but unlike Democrats of the past eight years who have bitched-and-moaned and sat on their hands, refusing to be an active part of a government that they did not control, I will support the new President.
My current concern is for the American flag. Mr. Obama finds it "intimidating," to use his words, and discourages the wearing of it as a pin or emblem, discourages the singing of the national anthem (which he is about to hear more times than he may care to remember in years to come), and doesn't like the Pledge of Allegiance. So, I hope that these little items, being our only real tradition in our short history, do not fall by the wayside.
Something interesting to watch, which will clearly show the deep intricacies of the American political system is this:
Barack Obama (and McCain) has promised big change. He is *very* "Liberal," even in the eyes of Hillary Clinton. He does not support war overseas, and he has very open views about American society. This man is diametrically opposed to just about everything that sits today as the norm in American politics. So, here's the experiment, all you Obama enthusiasts... which is more influential, the President or the political system? If Barack Obama can make big changes, I will have some very hard feelings for the previous administrations who fell short and led us into the situations where we now find ourselves. However, if Barack Obama's politics conform to the system and we do not see any grand gestures of difference and change, I would posit that the system is greater than the man, that previous administrations should be counted in the light of that system and not be made out to be "evil" on some false supposition that they were autonomously at fault for this-thing-or-that, and that Mr. Obama is treated with equal venom by the people who poopoo'd our past presidents, drug them through the muck, and have now lovingly placed Barack upon this grand potium of new things to come.
As our sitting President shoulders the burden of all that is wrong with America, and voters are unwilling to see his administration in terms of what has been done with what had been set in motion in the previous administration--in short, isolating events to this one, current administration--I expect that the voters will not put any blame on a past President if faced with Mr. Obama's own shortcomings, but put all kudos or blame on Mr. Obama's head, and his head alone.
I most sincerely pray that America rises from the ashes in which it currently wallows, and that would be my same prayer regardless of who is our next President. I have very high expectations of this country, and I pray that Mr. Obama can deliver on them.
And lastly... the "Race Issue." It was an emotionally-charged election, and I was sent into fits every time someone mentioned race. Barack Obama's *huge* win of the popular vote calls out one loud, inescapable truth: AMERICA IS **NOT** RACIST. Republicans and Democrats alike, from the entire nation, in the majority of States, voted for Mr. Obama. I *WILL NOT* entertain any further nonsense by Jesse Jackson and others like him, that tell me that my "whiteness" keeps down other races in America, and that Mr. Obama is somehow different because he is a different color. As far as I am concerned, Rev. Jackson is out of a job. ALL RACES in America have elevated a man, not a Black Man, but just a man, in open election, to the Executive Office. It is *not* the first time that a non-white has been elected to a public office, but apparently the election of non-whites in the past has not been strong enough evidence for the case that American is not, in fact, a nation of bigots. As such, with this Presidential election, America can offer no more--there's no greater public office...or honor...or evidence that any turmoil in the life of a person of any race is an individual, personal issue and NOT due to an over abundance of sectarians and partisans in a country of racists. Jesse Jackson, clean up your tears, your issue is very clearly not my issue...you're on your own.
-
Joe, didn't you say it yourself that the only reason Obama won, was the shitty economy recently? I know most repub pundits agree - Mccain led until the $ collapse.
if so, then doesn't that mean people chose based upon their perceptions of his policy?
I don't recall ever once saying that.
-
Getbig----
Every time you've debated a topic with a thick-headed neocon, there have been dozens of people reading it.
Every time you have proven Bush or mccain in a lie, there have been dozens of people reading it.
The internet led to the demise of Rovian tactics. message boards ended that kind of fearmongering.
Every time you pointed out a contradictory statement by mccain.
Every time you pointed out the hypocracy and lies of Iraq.
Every time you questioned events that were orchestrated.
You spoke to dozens who then spoke to dozens of their friends. You changed history. We all did it. You know who you are. You didn't just accept what FOX or CNN fed you - you looked at alternative sources of info and you found your own truth, and you debated it with your peers.
We changed history. Tell your fcking grandkids one day. You were a part of the web revolution. You inserted transparency into the political spectrum. Obama will be squeaky clean from minute 1 because he HAS to be.
I saved my voting reciept and sticker they gave me. My kids can sell it, after Obama bankrupts us.
-
Very naive voters....you voted for radical socialism, Obama made no bones about it. He was elected because of 1. The media (I said this long ago).
2. He baught the election by way of lieing about not taking public contributions.
And 3......because he's black. (1/2 black)
Not one person can convince me it was because of his policy ideas, especially since he's changed at least 3 times on every issue thats been brought up.
Or maybe it was because mainstream America is just sick of the GOP and it's lies and the way religious idiots keep trying to impose THEIR beliefs on how other's should live their lives when they can't even pick up the pieces of their own family themselves.
-
Or maybe it was because mainstream America is just sick of the GOP and it's lies and the way religious idiots keep trying to impose THEIR beliefs on how other's should live their lives when they can't even pick up the pieces of their own family themselves.
Just as half the nation is sick of the Democrat's lies and the ultra-liberal idiots trying to impose their beliefs on how others should live their lives when in fact they're totally dysfunctional ex-hippies themselves.
-
Jesse Jackson, clean up your tears, your issue is very clearly not my issue...you're on your own.
Agreed that Jesse was crying because he knows he's out of a job now.
-
Give the man his props.
With the exception of saying that Hillary would be the #2, his predictions were money.
A year ago, I said that Obama would not win because of his name. I was wrong. Very wrong.
God bless the USA.
Oh yes, I agree....240 was the only person in the world to call an Obama victory
why you dumb ass dweeb!
-
He's going to tax the shit out of those rich individiuals and corporations earning millions per year.
Just like Clinton did.
I guess you were to young to remember that WE ALL got the tax increase with slick Willy- same as Obama will do again, wait and see my brother!
"A country that tries to tax itself into prosparity is like a man standing in a bucket, trying to lift it by the handles!" Winston Churchhill.
-
I guess you were to young to remember that WE ALL got the tax increase with slick Willy- same as Obama will do again, wait and see my brother!
"A country that tries to tax itself into prosparity is like a man standing in a bucket, trying to lift it by the handles!" Winston Churchhill.
if the economy is in the shitter and people arent spending money than what does a tax break for wealthy people do ??? Many of those "wealthy" people wouldnt be so wealthy after 4 more years of the Mcbush republican economic plan
you fail to realize that the biggest consumers in the country are the middle and lower class
-
He's going to tax the shit out of those rich individiuals and corporations earning millions per year.
Just like Clinton did.
No, you mean like Reagan did. Reagan had top marginal tax rates of 50%, Clinton only 39.6%.
http://www.truthandpolitics.org/top-rates.php
Obama wants to cease the Bush tax cuts on the rich (excellent decision, btw), which reduced their taxes from 39.6% down to 35%. No big deal for the rich if it goes back up a measely 4.6% (marginally, over $250,000), and would significantly help offset NEEDED tax cuts to the middle class, which would spur consumer demand/spending and get the economy back on track, without running our deficit much higher causing us to print money and issue bonds to cover it, causing more inflation. Demand pull/Keynseian economics is what works (Clinton), NOT the trickle-down Reaganomics (supply-side economics) that has run massive deficits by every Prez that has tried it (Reagan, Bush 1, Bush 2).
See this:
http://www.cedarcomm.com/~stevelm1/usdebt.htm
Here's a great excerpt from that:
Trickle Down Theory Myth
History has shown that the “trickle down theory” does not work. Republican President Hoover tried the “trickle down” theory (his words) to solve economic problems during the last few years of his only term, when the greatest economic depression this country has ever faced began. It is often called the Republican Depression because it was their financial philosophy that led to the collapse of the economy. Tax cuts for the rich did not work and things got worse. (We are seeing the same problem repeat itself encouraged by the deregulation of the financial industry.)
President Roosevelt got into office, raised taxes on the rich, created jobs for the poor and turned things around. Mr. Reagan employed Hoover’s failed trickle down theory again in the ‘80s and again it did not work. The rich got richer, but the poor got poorer and the economy declined. Mr. Bush Sr., who always had a problem with the “vision thing”, continued the failed policy of his immediate predecessor.
Mr. Clinton took a more progressive approach and, as Roosevelt had done, turned the Hoover model upside down. Instead of making the rich richer in the hope that they would spend that money and thus create demand and therefore jobs, he created a tax environment that encouraged the creation of jobs directly. It was an economic environment where everyone could get rich, not just a few, and it worked. Lots of jobs and lots of new millionaires were created while Clinton was in office. More new millionaires were created during the Clinton administration than at any other time in our history.
President Bush II slipped into office and once again applied the Neo-Con manta of the old trickle down tax model and immediately created a need to raise the debt level to pay for an unjustified tax cut in 2001. Predictably (and before 9/11) the nation lost jobs and there were fewer new millionaires. Not learning from his past mistakes, Bush pushed through yet more tax cuts in 2003, 2005 and 2006 -- all while expanding the military, the largest single component of the budget. He and his lap dog Republican Congress never learned from their mistakes. As a result, the national debt has increased an average of $1.5 billion per day since the beginning of 2002.
While it is a great jabbing sound bite, the facts show that the “tax and spend” rhetoric Republicans often spew about Democrats is not as bad as it sounds. Taxing before spending actually reflects good government. The facts also show that it most often takes a Democratic President to control and reduce spending. The truth is that the Republicans are the party of “borrow and spend”. They hate taxes, but love to spend; their solution is to put off paying till later for our security today. They prefer to see our children pay for their debt. Neo-Conservative thinking has run up over an 9.5 trillion dollar debt that will not be paid off for a generation or more, and is still increasing at an astounding rate with no end to deficit spending in sight.
-
Agreed that Jesse was crying because he knows he's out of a job now.
This might make it all worth it.
-
typical selfish, self centered americans.
you cry and whine about the crap that happnes, then cry and whine about the solutions. whats more, when given the opportunity to fix that monkey cage of a place you call the USA, you all cant think beyond your own patch. thats why the US is the arsehole of the earth.
thats why the US fucks the rest of the world up.
thats why the rest of the world thinks the US is a joke.
time for US cits to pull their heads out of their arses and smell the roses. Fix that shit up before trying to "fix" other things.
put yourselves in a position where you are the victim of bad luck and visualise living in the US then. youll realise that its one of the crap places to be.
if it goes well for you, then thats great. But life isnt all about you.
-
now the US citizens need to rise up and take back what was once a great country.
which will mean trading off some "freedoms" to get some security- so kids dont get shot to pieces whilst trick or treating.
you guys MUST do evertything you can to get rid of the right to bear arms in the constitution. Sure those who want to will get hold of them, but the country is crap and dangerous with anyone able to just tote a weapon.
The rest of the world would be in awe of the US if things like that changed. Currently we just shake our heads and think- thank fuck we dont live in that place.
...i expect many flames...so bring it on rednecks!
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
--Benjamin Franklin, 1775
"Outlaw guns, and only outlaws will have guns"
--Bumper sticker
"You're a namby-pamby idiot"
--Me
-
Dan-o
your replies are the usual responses from the redneck gun toters and dont reflect what several other countries have experienced.
sure, people will get their hands on guns...but its darn hard to, and the effect strict control has is extremely marked. In the countries that have banned them or made them very difficult to get and maintain their is almost zero incidence of gun related murder and zero incidence of mass shootings.
Your Ben Franklin quote is no longer valid- its an old, outdated concept that no longer applies in the context it was delivered.
let me pose this to you- if your mom, or your kid got shot by some other kid, or accidently by some stranger, or even whilst being robbed- is it the perp to blame?...i can guess your response.
if you like l;iving in a country that totes guns, thats great. you stay there. Having an opinion on guns and wanting a society where you can walk the streets without fear of being shot does not make me a namby pamby. or an idiot.
maybe one day your family will become a victim of gun crime.
-
if you like l;iving in a country that totes guns, thats great. you stay there. Having an opinion on guns and wanting a society where you can walk the streets without fear of being shot does not make me a namby pamby. or an idiot.
I agree. Guns all well and good but [not referring to Dan-o, just general] amuses me when people say/act like it's uncivilised not to have them.
I am never sure why having less violence, being safer and a far lower murder rate is inferior to most folks having guns and having a sky high murder rate.
-
I agree. Guns all well and good but [not referring to Dan-o, just general] amuses me when people say/act like it's uncivilised not to have them.
I am never sure why having less violence, being safer and a far lower murder rate is inferior to most folks having guns and having a sky high murder rate.
I'm not sure if this has been posted here before or not. But when it comes to gun control one of the best most recent examples of what happens when you implement this is to look at the UK.
In the UK they made it illegal to own or posses any type of firearm. What happened? The crime rate went up more than 100%, the murder rate went up but I can't recall how much.
I'm too lazy right now to look up actual statistics, lol! Kind of tired. I'll look it up later.
Point being, absolute gun control, i.e. making them 100% illegal is just plain and simple bad medicine. Sure, there have to be regualtions and rules in place for a proper functioning society...no man has the need for a tank or a rocket launcher, but very resposible man has the right to defend himself and his family. Oldest arguement in the book against gun control, "when you take guns away from law abiding citizens, the only ones left with guns are the crooks." Does anyone actually think if the U.S. implements gun control that the criminals will turn in their guns?
-
Dan-o
your replies are the usual responses from the redneck gun toters and dont reflect what several other countries have experienced.
sure, people will get their hands on guns...but its darn hard to, and the effect strict control has is extremely marked. In the countries that have banned them or made them very difficult to get and maintain their is almost zero incidence of gun related murder and zero incidence of mass shootings.
Your Ben Franklin quote is no longer valid- its an old, outdated concept that no longer applies in the context it was delivered.
let me pose this to you- if your mom, or your kid got shot by some other kid, or accidently by some stranger, or even whilst being robbed- is it the perp to blame?...i can guess your response.
if you like l;iving in a country that totes guns, thats great. you stay there. Having an opinion on guns and wanting a society where you can walk the streets without fear of being shot does not make me a namby pamby. or an idiot.
maybe one day your family will become a victim of gun crime.
I'm not a redneck and don't even own a gun. So if I'm one of those people whom CQ says think it's "uncivilised" not to have a gun then I'd have to include myself in the uncivilised category. But just taking away guns from honest law-abiding citizens won't accomplish anything except giving criminals that much more of an advantage.
Someday someone in my family may indeed be affected by a gun crime. It hasn't happened yet (knock wood) but ya know, there's always the possibility. And yes, if someone shoots someone else with a gun, I do blame the shooter for the shooting that has transpired. Call me crazy but that's how I see it.
And again, it may just be a trite saying printed on a bumper sticker but it's true--"outlaw guns, and only outlaws will have guns." Crooks and bad buys are not going to turn in or dispose of their guns if they're illegalized.
As far as wanting a society where you can walk the streets without fear of getting shot--who doesn't want that? But the reality is--there is always going to be that criminal element, I don't care where you live in the world--so you might as well deal with it and be prepared to protect yourself instead of just wishing for a utopian world where crime doesn't exist.
-
I'm not sure if this has been posted here before or not. But when it comes to gun control one of the best most recent examples of what happens when you implement this is to look at the UK.
In the UK they made it illegal to own or posses any type of firearm. What happened? The crime rate went up more than 100%, the murder rate went up but I can't recall how much.
I'm too lazy right now to look up actual statistics, lol! Kind of tired. I'll look it up later.
Point being, absolute gun control, i.e. making them 100% illegal is just plain and simple bad medicine. Sure, there have to be regualtions and rules in place for a proper functioning society...no man has the need for a tank or a rocket launcher, but very resposible man has the right to defend himself and his family. Oldest arguement in the book against gun control, "when you take guns away from law abiding citizens, the only ones left with guns are the crooks." Does anyone actually think if the U.S. implements gun control that the criminals will turn in their guns?
I agree with yours and Dan-o's post.
I am really more referring to people who tell me my island is uncivilised not to have guns. I respect the US viewpoint and situations but they don't apply here. Guns are illegal, we have exactly 2 ways in - 1 airport and 1 dock therefore it's easy to control entry something that impossible in large nations. They've been illegal since like horse and carriage days so none left around. As there are literally no guns [not even police] murdering someone takes some real effort and blood spewage as you have to like knife someone to death. This does translate into a very, very low murder rate a mere fraction of other places. We are in a unique position to be able to do that, most could not. Neighbouring islands with guns have some of the highest rates in the world. Vast disparity.
It works for us, same way the gun culture works for Americans. I just don't see why people can't see others sides and respect that is all.
-
I'm not a redneck and don't even own a gun. So if I'm one of those people whom CQ says think it's "uncivilised" not to have a gun then I'd have to include myself in the uncivilised category. But just taking away guns from honest law-abiding citizens won't accomplish anything except giving criminals that much more of an advantage.
Someday someone in my family may indeed be affected by a gun crime. It hasn't happened yet (knock wood) but ya know, there's always the possibility. And yes, if someone shoots someone else with a gun, I do blame the shooter for the shooting that has transpired. Call me crazy but that's how I see it.
And again, it may just be a trite saying printed on a bumper sticker but it's true--"outlaw guns, and only outlaws will have guns." Crooks and bad buys are not going to turn in or dispose of their guns if they're illegalized.
As far as wanting a society where you can walk the streets without fear of getting shot--who doesn't want that? But the reality is--there is always going to be that criminal element, I don't care where you live in the world--so you might as well deal with it and be prepared to protect yourself instead of just wishing for a utopian world where crime doesn't exist.
good post
our founding fathers knew that outlawing firearms would only harm innocent civilians, the "right to bear arms" must be protected!!!!!!!!!!!!
I am a responsible gun owner with a permit to carry a concealed weapon and a pistol----I made sure I got my permit before god knows what direction this country goes in trying to protect us from everything under the sun, what does it matter if you are safe but caged in a padded white room with no freedom??
America was built upon idea of freedom and to preserve that freedom civilians must be allowed to possess firearms.
-
arnold and dan-o you are wrong.
its a comforting feeling to own a gun, but that has to be balanced with the chance that you'll be subject to gun crime.
the many countries it is illegal to poses a firearm- even bb guns in fact- and even replicas.
those countries have many times less murder and violent/accidental death toll than those that allow it.
criminals will be criminals- with or without guns. if they have guns, the chances of someone really getting hurt rises 10 fold. If the victim has a gun, the chances rise further.
its a false security that results in a higher death toll.
none of you guys mentioned the massacres that have occurred. when its that easy to get hold of weapons, these things happen.
its just that the US is so used to this that its scary to think of it being any different. if its so important then why not just allow tasers and outlaw guns?
with tight gun control it makes it much easier for the law to identify the law breakers and control imports- it also makes their job easier as for the most part its only law enforcement that has the weapons.
all of the other responses to my comments have been speculation without fact.
heres the facts, guns kill.
a criminal will be a criminal- with a gun theres a chance he'll murder.
a victim with a gun will attempt to defend themselves- the result could be murder rather than robbery.
remove guns, and violent crime still occurs- knives and so on. not much you can do about that.
of all the massacres recently, none were committed by hardened criminals- just people with some screws loose who could easily obtain guns.
easy gun access has resulted in the assassination of many great leaders.
innocent people get killed by drive by shootings every day.
and so on.
guns have become a security blanket for americans. places that have made weapons illegal have shown massive reduction in murder, massacre and accidental death.
having a gun does not make you safe. it makes the perp think twice, sure, but criminals will be criminals, and adding a gun, or guns to the mix increased the chance of death. remove all guns and the outcome is likely just crime.
what do you want?- to be robbed and survive- or be killed or kill.?
ok its complex, but IMO guns make arguments explosive, and weirdos dangerous.
-
Unfortunately, ...the genie is out of the bottle.
IMO, the true purpose for having a gun is NOT to protect yourself from common criminals,
...but in order to preserve your liberty, and in defense of your country. Unfortunately, criminals will always have access to guns. I don't see the point in cutting off your nose to spite your face. You might be able to shut down the common criminal and get rid of violent & accidental gun deaths by getting rid of guns, but you leave yourself open to the loss of your liberty, and the inability to defend your nation and your freedoms.... if you get my drift.
After what I've seen transpire in the last 8 yrs, ...I say thank goodness for the 2nd amendment.
Now let's get some education in there to counter the glorification of the gun.
-
Give the man his props.
With the exception of saying that Hillary would be the #2, his predictions were money.
A year ago, I said that Obama would not win because of his name. I was wrong. Very wrong.
God bless the USA.
I gotta say I also predicted Obama losing the election because he was black. I was wrong. This is why I love this country. I think we're headed in a VERY, VERY nice direction.
-
Getbig----
Every time you've debated a topic with a thick-headed neocon, there have been dozens of people reading it.
Every time you have proven Bush or mccain in a lie, there have been dozens of people reading it.
The internet led to the demise of Rovian tactics. message boards ended that kind of fearmongering.
Every time you pointed out a contradictory statement by mccain.
Every time you pointed out the hypocracy and lies of Iraq.
Every time you questioned events that were orchestrated.
You spoke to dozens who then spoke to dozens of their friends. You changed history. We all did it. You know who you are. You didn't just accept what FOX or CNN fed you - you looked at alternative sources of info and you found your own truth, and you debated it with your peers.
We changed history. Tell your fcking grandkids one day. You were a part of the web revolution. You inserted transparency into the political spectrum. Obama will be squeaky clean from minute 1 because he HAS to be.
What is this "we" business? ? ? ? ? I thought you didnt vote for him.
-
3 year old thread bump = EPIC meltdown in progress.
-
I gotta say I also predicted Obama losing the election because he was black. I was wrong. This is why I love this country. I think we're headed in a VERY, VERY nice direction.
The majority of the country disagrees with you now.
-
Getbig----
Every time you've debated a topic with a thick-headed neocon, there have been dozens of people reading it.
Every time you have proven Bush or mccain in a lie, there have been dozens of people reading it.
The internet led to the demise of Rovian tactics. message boards ended that kind of fearmongering.
Every time you pointed out a contradictory statement by mccain.
Every time you pointed out the hypocracy and lies of Iraq.
Every time you questioned events that were orchestrated.
You spoke to dozens who then spoke to dozens of their friends. You changed history. We all did it. You know who you are. You didn't just accept what FOX or CNN fed you - you looked at alternative sources of info and you found your own truth, and you debated it with your peers.
We changed history. Tell your fcking grandkids one day. You were a part of the web revolution. You inserted transparency into the political spectrum. Obama will be squeaky clean from minute 1 because he HAS to be.
Wow 240... epic fucking fail on your part.
-
Very naive voters....you voted for radical socialism, Obama made no bones about it. He was elected because of 1. The media (I said this long ago).
2. He baught the election by way of lieing about not taking public contributions.
And 3......because he's black. (1/2 black)
Not one person can convince me it was because of his policy ideas, especially since he's changed at least 3 times on every issue thats been brought up.
Hindsight is 20/20, and it looks like Coach is the one who needs to be given his props for calling it, lol.
-
This is why 240 gets called names. He simply can't tell the damn truth. If he just admitted he loves obama - fine!
-
This is why 240 gets called names. He simply can't tell the damn truth. If he just admitted he loves obama - fine!
you're not exactly the most popular person around here either buddy.
-
you're not exactly the most popular person around here either buddy.
For the exact same reason. He can't tell the truth about anything either.
-
you're not exactly the most popular person around here either buddy.
I don't care, look at those who hate me most - communists, socialists, stalkers, leftist freaks, guilt ridden white dorks, racist blacks, economically deranged morons, etc.
-
For the exact same reason. He can't tell the truth about anything either.
What have i not told the truth about?
-
What have i not told the truth about?
Half of what comes out of your delusional mouth isn't the truth.
Like straw always says, you just say something and pretend it already happened and everyone just blindly accepts it.
Delusional little shut in.
-
Half of what comes out of your delusional mouth isn't the truth.
Like straw always says, you just say something and pretend it already happened and everyone just blindly accepts it.
Delusional little shut in.
Specifics please or STFU.
-
I don't care, look at those who hate me most - communists, socialists, stalkers, leftist freaks, guilt ridden white dorks, racist blacks, economically deranged morons, etc.
i still like you ;D
-
i still like you ;D
I hate your guts and still want to see you tossed into pre-chummed shark infested waters. ;D
-
:-[
-
Specifics please or STFU.
Page 1-1294839 of this forum.
And you KNOW you are full of shit. Just like you won't stand by your stupid ass comments that you make over and over and parade them around as the gospel fact. Called upon to stand besides them with a wager you run away and hide. Chicken shit.
-
::) whatever. Give me some specifics.
-
I just did you chicken shit.
-
Getbig----
Every time you've debated a topic with a thick-headed neocon, there have been dozens of people reading it.
Every time you have proven Bush or mccain in a lie, there have been dozens of people reading it.
The internet led to the demise of Rovian tactics. message boards ended that kind of fearmongering.
Every time you pointed out a contradictory statement by mccain.
Every time you pointed out the hypocracy and lies of Iraq.
Every time you questioned events that were orchestrated.
You spoke to dozens who then spoke to dozens of their friends. You changed history. We all did it. You know who you are. You didn't just accept what FOX or CNN fed you - you looked at alternative sources of info and you found your own truth, and you debated it with your peers.
We changed history. Tell your fcking grandkids one day. You were a part of the web revolution. You inserted transparency into the political spectrum. Obama will be squeaky clean from minute 1 because he HAS to be.
What is this "WE" business?
-
What is this "WE" business?
Yeah, that post was so pretentious it made my head hurt. To say "we" internet posters got Obama elected is incredibly arrogant.
Obama got elected because the whole country was sick of Bush. It had little to nothing to do with the internet. Lol. To think otherwise only shows how self absorbed 240 was back then. Lol.