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Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: Benny B on December 10, 2008, 07:49:12 AM
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$73 an Hour: Adding It Up
By DAVID LEONHARDT
Seventy-three dollars an hour.
That figure — repeated on television and in newspapers as the average pay of a Big Three autoworker — has become a big symbol in the fight over what should happen to Detroit. To critics, it is a neat encapsulation of everything that’s wrong with bloated car companies and their entitled workers.
To the Big Three’s defenders, meanwhile, the number has become proof positive that autoworkers are being unfairly blamed for Detroit’s decline. “We’ve heard this garbage about 73 bucks an hour,” Senator Bob Casey, a Pennsylvania Democrat, said last week. “It’s a total lie. I think some people have perpetrated that deliberately, in a calculated way, to mislead the American people about what we’re doing here.”
So what is the reality behind the number? Detroit’s defenders are right that the number is basically wrong. Big Three workers aren’t making anything close to $73 an hour (which would translate to about $150,000 a year).
But the defenders are not right to suggest, as many have, that Detroit has solved its wage problem. General Motors, Ford and Chrysler workers make significantly more than their counterparts at Toyota, Honda and Nissan plants in this country. Last year’s concessions by the United Automobile Workers, which mostly apply to new workers, will not change that anytime soon.
And yet the main problem facing Detroit, overwhelmingly, is not the pay gap. That’s unfortunate because fixing the pay gap would be fairly straightforward.
The real problem is that many people don’t want to buy the cars that Detroit makes. Fixing this problem won’t be nearly so easy.
The success of any bailout is probably going to come down to Washington’s willingness to acknowledge as much.
Let’s start with the numbers. The $73-an-hour figure comes from the car companies themselves. As part of their public relations strategy during labor negotiations, the companies put out various charts and reports explaining what they paid their workers. Wall Street analysts have done similar calculations.
The calculations show, accurately enough, that for every hour a unionized worker puts in, one of the Big Three really does spend about $73 on compensation. So the number isn’t made up. But it is the combination of three very different categories.
The first category is simply cash payments, which is what many people imagine when they hear the word “compensation.” It includes wages, overtime and vacation pay, and comes to about $40 an hour. (The numbers vary a bit by company and year. That’s why $73 is sometimes $70 or $77.)
The second category is fringe benefits, like health insurance and pensions. These benefits have real value, even if they don’t show up on a weekly paycheck. At the Big Three, the benefits amount to $15 an hour or so.
Add the two together, and you get the true hourly compensation of Detroit’s unionized work force: roughly $55 an hour. It’s a little more than twice as much as the typical American worker makes, benefits included. The more relevant comparison, though, is probably to Honda’s or Toyota’s (nonunionized) workers. They make in the neighborhood of $45 an hour, and most of the gap stems from their less generous benefits.
The third category is the cost of benefits for retirees. These are essentially fixed costs that have no relation to how many vehicles the companies make. But they are a real cost, so the companies add them into the mix — dividing those costs by the total hours of the current work force, to get a figure of $15 or so — and end up at roughly $70 an hour.
The crucial point, though, is this $15 isn’t mainly a reflection of how generous the retiree benefits are. It’s a reflection of how many retirees there are. The Big Three built up a huge pool of retirees long before Honda and Toyota opened plants in this country. You’d never know this by looking at the graphic behind Wolf Blitzer on CNN last week, contrasting the “$73/hour” pay of Detroit’s workers with the “up to $48/hour” pay of workers at the Japanese companies.
These retirees make up arguably Detroit’s best case for a bailout. The Big Three and the U.A.W. had the bad luck of helping to create the middle class in a country where individual companies — as opposed to all of society — must shoulder much of the burden of paying for retirement.
So here’s a little experiment. Imagine that a Congressional bailout effectively pays for $10 an hour of the retiree benefits. That’s roughly the gap between the Big Three’s retiree costs and those of the Japanese-owned plants in this country. Imagine, also, that the U.A.W. agrees to reduce pay and benefits for current workers to $45 an hour — the same as at Honda and Toyota.
Do you know how much that would reduce the cost of producing a Big Three vehicle? Only about $800.
That’s because labor costs, for all the attention they have been receiving, make up only about 10 percent of the cost of making a vehicle. An extra $800 per vehicle would certainly help Detroit, but the Big Three already often sell their cars for about $2,500 less than equivalent cars from Japanese companies, analysts at the International Motor Vehicle Program say. Even so, many Americans no longer want to own the cars being made by General Motors, Ford and Chrysler.
My own family’s story isn’t especially unusual. For decades, my grandparents bought American and only American. In their apartment, they still have a framed photo of the 1933 Oldsmobile that my grandfather’s family drove when he was a teenager. In the photo, his father stands proudly on the car’s running board.
By the 1970s, though, my grandfather became so sick of the problems with his American cars that he vowed never to buy another one. He hasn’t.
Detroit’s defenders, from top executives on down, insist that they have finally learned their lesson. They say a comeback is just around the corner. But they said the same thing at the start of this decade — and the start of the last one and the one before that. All the while, their market share has kept on falling.
There is good reason to keep G.M. and Chrysler from collapsing in 2009. (Ford is in slightly better shape.) The economy is in the worst recession in a generation. You can think of the Detroit bailout as a relatively cost-effective form of stimulus. It’s often cheaper to keep workers in their jobs than to create new jobs.
But Congress and the Obama administration shouldn’t fool themselves into thinking that they can preserve the Big Three in anything like their current form. Very soon, they need to shrink to a size that reflects the American public’s collective judgment about the quality of their products.
It’s a sad story, in many ways. But it can’t really be undone at this point. If we had wanted to preserve the Big Three, we would have bought more of their cars.
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That's a good find.
Maybe it will put to bed this crapola about unions killing the industry.
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That's a good find.
Maybe it will put to bed this crapola about unions killing the industry.
This is a very dishonest article. It completely avoids and ignores the legacy costs, pension, costs, health care costs, and other related costs that bring the total cost to $73.oo per hour.
Just because a guy does not see 73.00 per hour in his pay does not mean it does not cost the employer that much to have them there.
Additionally, the companies are paying hundreds of thousands of people who are not working.
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This is a very dishonest article. It completely avoids and ignores the legacy costs, pension, costs, health care costs, and other related costs that bring the total cost to $73.oo per hour.
Just because a guy does not see 73.00 per hour in his pay does not mean it does not cost the employer that much to have them there.
Additionally, the companies are paying hundreds of thousands of people who are not working.
CLEARLY you did not read the article, moron. ::) ::) ::)
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CLEARLY you did not read the article, moron. ::) ::) ::)
I did read it. However it does not make the point that 73.00 is what it costs the company.
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I did read it. However it does not make the point that 73.00 is what it costs the company.
Yes it does.
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Yes it does.
The bottom line is that is what it costs the company, regardless of whether the worker sees it or not.
The problem is not the workers themselves, it is the enormous legacy costs that have to be paid.
Actually, the workers themselves on the line currently are suffering as a result of theor work having to produc e enough profit to carry the costs of not only themselves, the hundreds of thousands of retirees not working or producing, but costing the company billions a year.
This is not a viable plan.
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How much of what they do is really worth even 15 bucks an hour?
Take that $ that is wasted on union pork contracts and make cars that are comporable in quality with Mercedes and BMW.
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The bottom line is that is what it costs the company, regardless of whether the worker sees it or not.
The problem is not the workers themselves, it is the enormous legacy costs that have to be paid.
Actually, the workers themselves on the line currently are suffering as a result of theor work having to produc e enough profit to carry the costs of not only themselves, the hundreds of thousands of retirees not working or producing, but costing the company billions a year.
This is not a viable plan.
Bullshit. The bottom line is that those workers, the producers, the manufacturers earned their benefits. I don't see you complaing about the 100 billion dollars of profit these legacy workers generated. I see you complaining about their bargained for earned benefits. Where did those profits go--besides into the pockets of executives or paid as dividends.
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How much of what they do is really worth even 15 bucks an hour?
Take that $ that is wasted on union pork contracts and make cars that are comporable in quality with Mercedes and BMW.
Mercedes are garbage cars. I wouldn't take one for free.
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I think this is a good quote:
The Republicans’ unbridled contempt for workers revealed an underlying agenda: the humiliation and degradation of labor. We weren’t criticized for incompetence. We were maligned for earning a good living. We were vilified for violating their fundamental belief that we aren’t equal as a class.
When it comes to wages there is no bottom to the bottom line. They won’t be satisfied until we are all on our knees and begging to work for food. In their eyes unequal status under the law doesn’t stop with immigrants, all workers should be at the whim and mercy of their employers, all workers should be underclass.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/12/9/221834/456/957/671298
The class war was waged and the elites won hands down.
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Yes, the unions/middle class are the problem.
Let's eliminate them immediately!
::)
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Mercedes are garbage cars. I wouldn't take one for free.
You'd take a Cobalt instead.... because it's "Union Made", right?
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Mercedes are garbage cars. I wouldn't take one for free.
? My experience is great so far
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Mercedes are garbage cars. I wouldn't take one for free.
Ouch
:o
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Mercedes are garbage cars. I wouldn't take one for free.
I have a BMW and it is the best car I have ever owned bar none.
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I'd take anything before the Chrysler merger and after.
I love the old Benz's. The new ones are shaping up to be great too!
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I'd take anything before the Chrysler merger and after.
I love the old Benz's. The new ones are shaping up to be great too!
Under the commie liberals in this country, we should all be happy to pay 50k for a garbage car produced by an ineffcient and corrupt and antiquated Union led by a failed executive leadership.
NO THANKS!!!!
Take your overpriced garbage car and shove it!
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I have a BMW and it is the best car I have ever owned bar none.
I have one too. Agreed, best car ever.
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I have a BMW and it is the best car I have ever owned bar none.
Conrgratulations on your purchase. You stand out from the crowd b/c of it.
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Conrgratulations on your purchase. You stand out from the crowd b/c of it.
I dont need congrats. Im pointing out that as a consumer I am not forced to purchase overpriced crap from the us auto'.s
if they want my business, let them produce an eqaully good product at similar cost.
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Under the commie liberals in this country, we should all be happy to pay 50k for a garbage car produced by an ineffcient and corrupt and antiquated Union led by a failed executive leadership.
NO THANKS!!!!
Take your overpriced garbage car and shove it!
Now that's an oxymoron if I ever saw one.
You can't be a communist and a liberal at the same time.
Those two ideologies do not mix, they are totally different.
Any political scientist will tell you that, no matter what party affiliation he/she happens to have.
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I have a ford escort that has 1.1 million miles on it regular serviced intervals at all ford dealerships.
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I have a ford escort that has 1.1 million miles on it regular serviced intervals at all ford dealerships.
You can keep anything on the road forever if you want to keep dumping money into it constantly....
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The work some of the regular autoworkers do isn't worth more than $20 an hour IMO. Most of the jobs are really unskilled labor and have little education.
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I dont need congrats. Im pointing out that as a consumer I am not forced to purchase overpriced crap from the us auto'.s
if they want my business, let them produce an eqaully good product at similar cost.
You do realize that this is the point of the article, don't you?
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Upon further review, this article is not that good.
It keeps repeating the bogus claim that $73.00 is the hourly wage of the rank and file when in fact the UAW workers make almost the same amount as their non-unionized foreign counterparts.
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Upon further review, this article is not that good.
It keeps repeating the bogus claim that $73.00 is the hourly wage of the rank and file when in fact the UAW workers make almost the same amount as their non-unionized foreign counterparts.
That was why I claimed it was dishonest.
The actual workers are not making that much, but that is what it costs the company.
If GM was not saddled with the baggage it has, it could pay the workers more on an hourly basis.
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The article is interesting. Good find. Blanco, the article argues both for and against the unions IMO. The unions have negotiated generous retirement packages for their workers. I know they have offered early retirement to many of their employees. One of my best friend's brothers is 53 and is retired with full benefits.
The new contracts may be different, but the companies cannot afford (or compete) when they have early and excessive retirement packages. I wish everyone could have a nice retirement, but its not fair for the UAW to but such a burden on the companies. Other workers aren't given nearly the same packages.
Line workers should make between $15-20/hr IMO. Repetitive, low skill job...so many people can do the work. I think all workers of large companies should have health benefits and some kind of retirement program but we have to eliminate early retirement and make employees contribute to their retirement packages.
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That was why I claimed it was dishonest.
The actual workers are not making that much, but that is what it costs the company.
If GM was not saddled with the baggage it has, it could pay the workers more on an hourly basis.
So you're stating that the wages aren't the problem, the benefits are.
Those bargained-for benefits were paid for competent productivity that netted the industry billions.
Now that those billions have been pissed away, you seem to think that the benefits should also be extinguished.
The workers delivered their end. They made cars. The executives told them what cars to make. The executives did a pretty bad job in retrospect.
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So you're stating that the wages aren't the problem, the benefits are.
Those bargained-for benefits were paid for competent productivity that netted the industry billions.
Now that those billions have been pissed away, you seem to think that the benefits should also be extinguished.
The workers delivered their end. They made cars. The executives told them what cars to make. The executives did a pretty bad job in retrospect.
What dont you get moron? You are stuck in the 1950's and dont realize that those models are no longer viable or sustainable.
The companies are going broke and none of these people will get damn thing unless drastic changes are made, whether you like it or not. Your complaints are moot if the companies go out of business.
When these "benefits" were bargained for, people did not collect for 30 and 40 years and did not run to the doctor every time they had a nose bleed.
Unles these companies restructure immediately, they will be gone and all the workers will get nothing.
The party is over, the bills have come do, and its time to pay the piper.
Any company losing billions a month cant be around for too long.
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Cost of benefits are also much higher than they were 20yrs ago. Its just not a sustainable model.
Decker, I agree with you on sticking up for the workers, in general, and I am all for giving them a protected reasonable wage, vacation and health coverage, but the benefits the UAW has negotiated are unusual compared to other industries...even other unionized industries. Particularly with retirement packages and paid lay-offs.
Your right, a more competitive car must be made. That is just as important as any other issue. If the cars aren't desired and competitive, the rest of these arguments are null and void.
My nurse's husband is a steelworker (unionized) and they all joke about how much better UAW workers have it.
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What dont you get moron? You are stuck in the 1950's and dont realize that those models are no longer viable or sustainable.
The companies are going broke and none of these people will get damn thing unless drastic changes are made, whether you like it or not. Your complaints are moot if the companies go out of business.
When these "benefits" were bargained for, people did not collect for 30 and 40 years and did not run to the doctor every time they had a nose bleed.
Unles these companies restructure immediately, they will be gone and all the workers will get nothing.
The party is over, the bills have come do, and its time to pay the piper.
Any company losing billions a month cant be around for too long.
Nope, you can bet the Dems will see to it that the taxpayer takes over the union costs. Watch the shareholders and management get screwed.
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Nope, you can bet the Dems will see to it that the taxpayer takes over the union costs. Watch the shareholders and management get screwed.
Screw that!
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What dont you get moron? You are stuck in the 1950's and dont realize that those models are no longer viable or sustainable.
The companies are going broke and none of these people will get damn thing unless drastic changes are made, whether you like it or not. Your complaints are moot if the companies go out of business.
When these "benefits" were bargained for, people did not collect for 30 and 40 years and did not run to the doctor every time they had a nose bleed.
Unles these companies restructure immediately, they will be gone and all the workers will get nothing.
The party is over, the bills have come do, and its time to pay the piper.
Any company losing billions a month cant be around for too long.
You're a tool of many sorts. A stool of Business elites--let's get rid of unions b/c....well, just b/c.
You talk about lean and mean yet you refer to health and retirement benefits as "The party is over"...
What fucking party? Is that party of seeing a doctor without losing your home? Or is it the fucking party that you can eat more than dog food in your retirement?
As stool, you are conditioned to believe Unions baaaaaaaadddddd...nyaahh hh.
Guys like you won't be happy until we have work for food programs and the soup kitchens back in business.
It's people like you who are ruining this country.
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Cost of benefits are also much higher than they were 20yrs ago. Its just not a sustainable model.
Decker, I agree with you on sticking up for the workers, in general, and I am all for giving them a protected reasonable wage, vacation and health coverage, but the benefits the UAW has negotiated are unusual compared to other industries...even other unionized industries. Particularly with retirement packages and paid lay-offs.
Your right, a more competitive car must be made. That is just as important as any other issue. If the cars aren't desired and competitive, the rest of these arguments are null and void.
My nurse's husband is a steelworker (unionized) and they all joke about how much better UAW workers have it.
It's unusual b/c the standards out there rely on the employee to fund his own healthcare and retirement...all on 45K a year. Unless one works for a large company, where the cost of insurance is low, there is no viable insurance plan. That's why there's 47 million uninsured people in this country. People may have insurance but the goddam deductible is so high that they forgo medication b/c it's too expensive.
Whether the cars are desired or 'competitive' is not a manufacturing problem. It's not the problem of the workers. That's a failure of management. You know, the guys who ride in private jets and make 30 million a year to fail.
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It's unusual b/c the standards out there rely on the employee to fund his own healthcare and retirement...all on 45K a year. Unless one works for a large company, where the cost of insurance is low, there is no viable insurance plan. That's why there's 47 million uninsured people in this country. People may have insurance but the goddam deductible is so high that they forgo medication b/c it's too expensive.
Whether the cars are desired or 'competitive' is not a manufacturing problem. It's not the problem of the workers. That's a failure of management. You know, the guys who ride in private jets and make 30 million a year to fail.
More class warfare garbage.
A company is in business to make money and profit for the shareholders. Corporations are not employment agencies whose purpose is to keep people employed, its to make a profit.
Without a profit, there is no business.
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Ha ha.
How many people do you employ?
I pay my taxes, have never collected welfare, have never collected unemployment, never been a burden on the state. And you say I'm ruining the country when millions are on welfare and bleeding us dry?
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It's unusual b/c the standards out there rely on the employee to fund his own healthcare and retirement...all on 45K a year. Unless one works for a large company, where the cost of insurance is low, there is no viable insurance plan. That's why there's 47 million uninsured people in this country. People may have insurance but the goddam deductible is so high that they forgo medication b/c it's too expensive.
Whether the cars are desired or 'competitive' is not a manufacturing problem. It's not the problem of the workers. That's a failure of management. You know, the guys who ride in private jets and make 30 million a year to fail.
"Whether the cars are desired or 'competitive' is not a manufacturing problem. It's not the problem of the worke"rs. That's a failure of management."
Of course its the workers' problem. If the company produces a garbage product that the consumer believes is not reliable or of good value, the company will go out of business, and for good reason.
You can't force people to purchase over priced vehicles that are not reliable compared to their counterparts. Those days are long over.
The Big Three do not have 70% share like they used to and are not going to ever get it back unless you want some type of nationlized auto industry and have pelosi and reid running the auto companies.
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Of course, poor products are an automotive design/engineer and management problem.
Still, we must recognize that there are multiple problems in our auto industry and address as many as possible. A bailout loan or bankrupcy has to address management compensation/bonuses, multiple aspects of the UAW, and ultimately, producing a better product.
I strongly believe the gov should give a tax incentive for buying a car from one of the big 3 for 2009. That makes perfect sense to me. I also like the idea of extending the warranties.
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I think you still aren't seeing the point Decker...the UAW is just one of many labor unions out there. I have no problem with unions. It's the fact that Detroit is not what it used to be. 333 has a point when he talks about the costs that were negotiated by the unions. The model just isn't feasible in this day and time, they haven't been for a while either. The UAW sure hasn't exactly helped the issue. What are they going to do if the Big 3 go under? Sue? You can talk about lifestyles all you want but if the business fails then everybody is out of a job period. I think some restructuring is in order across the board...including CEOs, UAW, management, engineering/design, etc. The UAW is NOT an innocent bystander that is being portrayed.
Does anybody know of anybody that works for a foreign auto maker? Do they not receive pay plus benefits? That is a number that I would like to read about.
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I think you still aren't seeing the point Decker...the UAW is just one of many labor unions out there. I have no problem with unions. It's the fact that Detroit is not what it used to be. 333 has a point when he talks about the costs that were negotiated by the unions. The model just isn't feasible in this day and time, they haven't been for a while either. The UAW sure hasn't exactly helped the issue. What are they going to do if the Big 3 go under? Sue? You can talk about lifestyles all you want but if the business fails then everybody is out of a job period. I think some restructuring is in order across the board...including CEOs, UAW, management, engineering/design, etc. The UAW is NOT an innocent bystander that is being portrayed.
Does anybody know of anybody that works for a foreign auto maker? Do they not receive pay plus benefits? That is a number that I would like to read about.
So let me get this straight. It's ok for the executive class to have private jets, ski villas in the Alps, 3,4 or 5 homes, all paid for by the productivity of past and current workers and when the market sours, the thing to be jettisoned is the employee's health and retirement plans.
Do you see why 3333's argument is just bullshit propaganda?
You say the business model is not feasible. What business model?
The business has already failed. The Big 3 will be reorganized. That's capitalism for you. That's why they need a bailout.
Since Toyota's profits were down 74% this past reporting period, I don't think we should be tapping them for info on how to run a business. That, and the fact that Toyota's been bailed out before by its government.
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The company is losing billions a month, not millions. The executives do not make billions a month.
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The company is losing billions a month, not millions. The executives do not make billions a month.
No shit. You talk of legacy costs, look at legacy profits as well. Or can't you see those?
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No shit. You talk of legacy costs, look at legacy profits as well. Or can't you see those?
The company is a step away from Chapter 7 or 11 and you talk about "legacy profits"????
What the heck are you smoking?
Even if you cut the pay by 75% of all executives, they would still be dying and going out of business.
The companies need current profits to pay for benefits for both those working and retired without that, the company dies, like it is now. In fact, toyoyta's profits may be down, but they are paying their bills, unlike GM.
Unless GM and Ford can produce a quality car at a reasonable price that people want and are willing to choose over comparable foreign makes, the companies are going away. Unless, of course, you want to mandate people buy only GM or Ford??????
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The company is a step away from Chapter 7 or 11 and you talk about "legacy profits"????
What the heck are you smoking?
buttery colombian
Even if you cut the pay by 75% of all executives, they would still be dying and going out of business.
How do you know this?
The companies need current profits to pay for benefits for both those working and retired without that, the company dies, like it is now. In fact, toyoyta's profits may be down, but they are paying their bills, unlike GM.
So it's the cost of union benefits that's the culprit here? Bullshit.
Unless GM and Ford can produce a quality car at a reasonable price that people want and are willing to choose over comparable foreign makes, the companies are going away. Unless, of course, you want to mandate people buy only GM or Ford??????
Why should they do that? They get more bang for their buck building giant trucks that stupid americans buy as if they are mana.
The only time SUVs became unpopular was when the price of oil spiked. NOw that it's down, these stupid fucking cocksuckers (I hate sounding so academic) will be buying more SUVs b/c it's a hell of a status symbol. The bigger the moron, the bigger the car.
I'm sure the executives will have a plan of action that will save the company. They'll likely be discussing it over Brie and Chardonnay on their private jets as they fly to their favorit vacation villa.
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You dont sound academic, you sound like the governor of Illinois.
BTW - obviously you have never a run a business. Blaming the customer and potential customer is not a recipe for success.
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I have a BMW and it is the best car I have ever owned bar none.
i want a bmw...does that count...
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I test drove a beemer a week ago. Quite impressive. Very responsive and good power.
But i cant haul plywood in it ,so i bought a new GMC truck for an insane low price from a desperate dealer.... ;D
Just doing my part to help the economy.
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thats not the american way......
The article is interesting. Good find. Blanco, the article argues both for and against the unions IMO. The unions have negotiated generous retirement packages for their workers. I know they have offered early retirement to many of their employees. One of my best friend's brothers is 53 and is retired with full benefits.
The new contracts may be different, but the companies cannot afford (or compete) when they have early and excessive retirement packages. I wish everyone could have a nice retirement, but its not fair for the UAW to but such a burden on the companies. Other workers aren't given nearly the same packages.
Line workers should make between $15-20/hr IMO. Repetitive, low skill job...so many people can do the work. I think all workers of large companies should have health benefits and some kind of retirement program but we have to eliminate early retirement and make employees contribute to their retirement packages.
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Legacy costs? haha that's funny you call it legacy costs. 50 years ago my grandfather and yours would have called it standard of living. Fuck me if the UAW demands a decent living, retirement at 55, and good benefits. That's what America used to be about. You can thank globalization for this shithole of a conundrum we are in now. America trying to keep up with third world labor? Makes no fucking sense. The only thing that's going to happen is the wealthier get wealthy and the standard of living for the average American goes down. Exactly what's happening now. This shit is all planned morons! NWO! Where's my fucking tin hat bitches?????????????? :)
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Legacy costs = a decent wage
Creative accounting = fucking someone over
How many more politically correct terms can we think of nowadays that mean jack shit?
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Why stop with the UAW...I mean fuck why dont' we just reduce wages to that of Chinese laborers? I mean then we'll REALLY be competitive right? Fucking brainwashed sheeple.
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Why stop with the UAW...I mean fuck why dont' we just reduce wages to that of Chinese laborers? I mean then we'll REALLY be competitive right? Fucking brainwashed sheeple.
you cant reduce pay from a pennie a day to anything less unless we make a new currency of half a pennie or something. ::).......
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you cant reduce pay from a pennie a day to anything less unless we make a new currency of half a pennie or something. ::).......
;D
The average Chinese laborer is making upwards of $.50 a week now. Where have you been?
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Legacy costs? haha that's funny you call it legacy costs. 50 years ago my grandfather and yours would have called it standard of living. Fuck me if the UAW demands a decent living, retirement at 55, and good benefits. That's what America used to be about. You can thank globalization for this shithole of a conundrum we are in now. America trying to keep up with third world labor? Makes no fucking sense. The only thing that's going to happen is the wealthier get wealthy and the standard of living for the average American goes down. Exactly what's happening now. This shit is all planned morons! NWO! Where's my fucking tin hat bitches?????????????? :)
Blah blah blah. When these pensions were put into place, the average life expectancy was much less than today and health care cost a ton less.
Its simply insane to allow a person at 55 to retire and have all these costs put on the company when their competition, who produc es better cars, does not have said costs.
You can think we are in the 1950's all over again, but we are not. These companies will adapt or die.
The UAW is part of the problem, not the solution.
The executives should be fired, I agree, but the static costs that the company has to bear are just too much for them to remain viable.
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You dont sound academic, you sound like the governor of Illinois.
BTW - obviously you have never a run a business. Blaming the customer and potential customer is not a recipe for success.
Here's a recipe for you. If labor costs represent less than 10% of the cost of each vehicle, how does destroying union contracts 'fix' the Big 3's problems?
It doesn't. Why? B/c elites like yourself have been trying to get rid of unions for years b/c any cost of labor is too high to the monied class.
Unions have caved on their wages, their healthcare, their overtime and still that's not enough for you b/c you live in a world where union is baaaad. Wake up and open your eyes.
You elites use a down economy as a pretext to rid yourself of unionized labor--I guess decent healthcare for a family gets under your skin for some reason.
BTW I have run a business. I have had employees. And you come off sounding like a whiner.
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Legacy costs? haha that's funny you call it legacy costs. 50 years ago my grandfather and yours would have called it standard of living. Fuck me if the UAW demands a decent living, retirement at 55, and good benefits. That's what America used to be about. You can thank globalization for this shithole of a conundrum we are in now. America trying to keep up with third world labor? Makes no fucking sense. The only thing that's going to happen is the wealthier get wealthy and the standard of living for the average American goes down. Exactly what's happening now. This shit is all planned morons! NWO! Where's my fucking tin hat bitches?????????????? :)
Great points. It's amazing how the working class thinks unions just suck. Fuck how propaganda works.
People like 3333333333 have no concept of the underlying accounting/economics of the situation yet they are damn sure it's the unions' fault.
Guys like 3333333333 will not be happy until we have indentured servitude...work for food....and soup kitchens.
After all ...WE GOTTA COMPETE. Yeah, with Indian kids making a nickel a day, no safety, health or environmental protections, no worker protection...nothing but dirtcheap labor.
There's the magic of your fucking market.
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Here's a recipe for you. If labor costs represent less than 10% of the cost of each vehicle, how does destroying union contracts 'fix' the Big 3's problems?
It doesn't. Why? B/c elites like yourself have been trying to get rid of unions for years b/c any cost of labor is too high to the monied class.
Unions have caved on their wages, their healthcare, their overtime and still that's not enough for you b/c you live in a world where union is baaaad. Wake up and open your eyes.
You elites use a down economy as a pretext to rid yourself of unionized labor--I guess decent healthcare for a family gets under your skin for some reason.
BTW I have run a business. I have had employees. And you come off sounding like a whiner.
Again, what is it that you dont get??????
These companies need to sell alot of cars at a profit in order to make enough money to operate their business and pay their pension and health care obligations.
Currently they do not sell enough cars to carry these burdens and pay their expenses.
Due to the fact that they are not gaining market share with better, more affordable, reliable products in relation to their competition, they need to shed costs and operating expenses in order to remain viable. This is economics 101 and does not require a high level of sophistication to understand.
GM and Ford need to either drastically cut their costs or figure out a way to sell many more cars at a profit.
If they dont . . . . . well . . . . they will go bankrupt.
Is it that hard for you to understand this????
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I guess you dont count the fact that somehow Toyota, Honda, BMW, all make cars here and are not near bankruptcy????
Are those workers slaves?????
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Again, what is it that you dont get??????
These companies need to sell alot of cars at a profit in order to make enough money to operate their business and pay their pension and health care obligations.
Currently they do not sell enough cars to carry these burdens and pay their expenses.
Due to the fact that they are not gaining market share with better, more affordable, reliable products in relation to their competition, they need to shed costs and operating expenses in order to remain viable. This is economics 101 and does not require a high level of sophistication to understand.
GM and Ford need to either drastically cut their costs or figure out a way to sell many more cars at a profit.
If they dont . . . . . well . . . . they will go bankrupt.
Is it that hard for you to understand this????
Oh, so it's just a matter of economics 101. Cuts have to be made and the luxury of health and retirement have to be cut as well b/c no one is buying the cars.
It is that simple.
First of all, your the typical rightwinger--you talk a good game about responsibility but when I point out the fact that the US consumer is contributing to the downfall of the car industry, you spread 'em wide with the 'customer is always right' bullshit.
If American fuckheads were not buying the inefficient trucks put out by the big 3, the trucks would not be produced for long. The american consumer is pretty much a dolt and the operation of the 'free market' has borne that out.
The demand was there for the gas guzzlers. Remember the jokes and braggarts about how big my truck is! Fuck the american consumer...he cuts his own throat, anyway--let's shop at Walmart this holiday season b/c my dollar goes further!...b/c Walmart is the Big 3's future--products made by slave labor and pushed by underpaid & underinsured sales and service staff....yes, it's all falling into place now.
We have to remain competitive.
But is that the reason? Why did this mess happen? Is it b/c the union workers have healthcare and a retirement plan?
NO.
Is it b/c executives/accountants have bungled their forecasts for sales over the years? They spend money on projected sales and when those sales don't materialize, we have a problem. Excess capacity. Maybe.
Your solution, a quaint throwback to another time, is no solution at all.
The Big 3 have failed. The reverberations throughout our country will be massive. We will suffer.
Globalized competition is in full force.
Now UAW has to fight to pick over the carcass.
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I guess you dont count the fact that somehow Toyota, Honda, BMW, all make cars here and are not near bankruptcy????
Are those workers slaves?????
Toyota‡‡ 130,307 197,189 –33.9%
BMW Group* 19,784 27,021 –26.8%
American Honda† 76,233 111,431 –31.6%
Isuzu 130 496 –73.8%
Suzuki 3,216 5,987 –46.3%
Chrysler LLC** 85,260 161,088 –47.1%
General Motors***** 153,404 261,273 –41.3%
Looks like losses are across the board. No?
http://www.autonews.com/article/20081202/ANA05/812029986/1078
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So let me get this straight. It's ok for the executive class to have private jets, ski villas in the Alps, 3,4 or 5 homes, all paid for by the productivity of past and current workers and when the market sours, the thing to be jettisoned is the employee's health and retirement plans.
Do you see why 3333's argument is just bullshit propaganda?
You say the business model is not feasible. What business model?
The business has already failed. The Big 3 will be reorganized. That's capitalism for you. That's why they need a bailout.
Since Toyota's profits were down 74% this past reporting period, I don't think we should be tapping them for info on how to run a business. That, and the fact that Toyota's been bailed out before by its government.
Thanks for putting words into my mouth. I never said it's ok for the CEOs to enjoy the finer things in life paid for by the work of others. The business model that has been in place for the last 30 years...please read I know you are better than that. The Big 3 have known they were operating under a flawed business model for decades now and have done nothing. You are the one that believes the bullshit if you think if these companies get a bailout that they will truly "reorganize". Sorry, it just isn't going to happen...they have been lying to the consumer for years now; I doubt they are telling the truth in this respect.
I don't want all of the pensions or benefits to go. I think it is fair to look at the amount(that we all agree is a pretty penny) and renegotiate the contracts. Sorry Decker, but getting paid to NOT work is NEVER a good idea period. That is a very real problem. That's the one area I truly have a problem with. Benefits, retirement, medical insurance, I'm cool with that. I haven't seen any numbers whether or not unions get THE BEST cover etc. for their members.
We can still look at Toyota as I'm sure their profits have dropped based on our economy; not the way they run their business. What I meant about the Toyota business is how are their employess doing finacially? You can still pay your employees and give them benefits as foreign automakers do. Also, their CEOs do not get nearly the amount of compensation that the Big 3 do.
I have a very big problem with the banks getting the massive amount of bailout that they have received. I am more open to a bailout for manufacturing jobs as they produce a real product. The thing is...the Big 3 aren't just on hard times like the rest of us. They ran their businesses into the ground, the American consumer knows this as our lack of buying American cars shows.
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Thanks to the American fucktard, hmmm. Buying big trucks...well, there you go not knowing about the product. American trucks are still very good, it's the rest of the line that is a problem. Sports cars, SUVs, etc.
Look who has lost the most though with those numbers.
Regarding Wal-Mart...I as I'm sure most of us do our best not to support that horrible business. The thing is, can you blame people for shopping there? We all know why it's cheap, but in hard times like this and with people making less money anyways...I'm slow to criticize people for shopping there. I feel fortunate enough to where I DON'T have to shop there. So what your saying is the poor people that you always defend are stupid for going to the cheapest place to spend the limited income that they have? While I can't stand Wal-Mart they do provide for people that are on a very real budget. A catch .22 if you will.
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Those figures represent the fact that sales are down, yes, but they are not losing billions a month like GM. Ford is in better shape than GM and Chrysler.
I am not saying the Unions are the only problem, but they are part of the problem.
The execs should all be fired immediately! Their pay should be cut drastically as well and no golden parachutes, I agree with that.
However, following the same path that they have for the last 20 years is only leading them to bankrupcy unless they figure out a way to sell more cars at a profit.
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Thanks for putting words into my mouth. I never said it's ok for the CEOs to enjoy the finer things in life paid for by the work of others. The business model that has been in place for the last 30 years...please read I know you are better than that. The Big 3 have known they were operating under a flawed business model for decades now and have done nothing. You are the one that believes the bullshit if you think if these companies get a bailout that they will truly "reorganize". Sorry, it just isn't going to happen...they have been lying to the consumer for years now; I doubt they are telling the truth in this respect.
The Big 3 are history. It's just a matter of picking over the carcass. We will all drive foreign cars now. These companies are not coming back.
I don't want all of the pensions or benefits to go. I think it is fair to look at the amount(that we all agree is a pretty penny) and renegotiate the contracts. Sorry Decker, but getting paid to NOT work is NEVER a good idea period. That is a very real problem. That's the one area I truly have a problem with. Benefits, retirement, medical insurance, I'm cool with that. I haven't seen any numbers whether or not unions get THE BEST cover etc. for their members.
Getting paid not to work happens every day to every single salaried person in the country. Get over that non-factor.
We can still look at Toyota as I'm sure their profits have dropped based on our economy; not the way they run their business. What I meant about the Toyota business is how are their employess doing finacially? You can still pay your employees and give them benefits as foreign automakers do. Also, their CEOs do not get nearly the amount of compensation that the Big 3 do.
Every car producer is suffering the same 30-50% loss in sales revenue. But I see nothing to contend with in your idea here.
I have a very big problem with the banks getting the massive amount of bailout that they have received. I am more open to a bailout for manufacturing jobs as they produce a real product. The thing is...the Big 3 aren't just on hard times like the rest of us. They ran their businesses into the ground, the American consumer knows this as our lack of buying American cars shows.
I think the problem of the big 3 is this: market demands turned on them and globalization caught up with them. It's all over. They will be history. And Detroit will be famous for fielding an 0-16 team in the NFL.
The US economy will not overcome this failure any time soon.
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More doom and gloom.
These companies have a flawed business model that cannot sustain itself without taxpayer money.
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Thanks to the American fucktard, hmmm. Buying big trucks...well, there you go not knowing about the product. American trucks are still very good, it's the rest of the line that is a problem. Sports cars, SUVs, etc.
Truck sales are good according to you? Not according to GM: They are doing worse than car sales. You got it backwards.
GM truck sales of 97,119 were down 51 percent and car sales of 73,466 were off 34 percent.
http://www.paddocktalk.com/news/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=98206&newlang=&topic=33&catid=56
Look who has lost the most though with those numbers.
Regarding Wal-Mart...I as I'm sure most of us do our best not to support that horrible business. The thing is, can you blame people for shopping there? We all know why it's cheap, but in hard times like this and with people making less money anyways...I'm slow to criticize people for shopping there. I feel fortunate enough to where I DON'T have to shop there. So what your saying is the poor people that you always defend are stupid for going to the cheapest place to spend the limited income that they have? While I can't stand Wal-Mart they do provide for people that are on a very real budget. A catch .22 if you will.
That's sort of what I'm saying. The more these addict-like consumers spend at Walmart, the more it destroys the middle class fabric of this country. They cut their own throats shopping at unamerican stores like Walmart.
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Truck sales are good according to you? Not according to GM: They are doing worse than car sales. You got it backwards.
GM truck sales of 97,119 were down 51 percent and car sales of 73,466 were off 34 percent.
http://www.paddocktalk.com/news/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=98206&newlang=&topic=33&catid=56
That's sort of what I'm saying. The more these addict-like consumers spend at Walmart, the more it destroys the middle class fabric of this country. They cut their own throats shopping at unamerican stores like Walmart.
Let me clarify...I believe the quality of American trucks is still good, not their sales.
Then what can be a solution to this non-American company?
Has anyone seen the high cost of low prices? It's a documentary about Wal-Mart...it's eye opening disgusting stuff.
The thing is though salaried workers have a job...they aren't sitting in a "job-bank".
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Blah blah blah. When these pensions were put into place, the average life expectancy was much less than today and health care cost a ton less.
Its simply insane to allow a person at 55 to retire and have all these costs put on the company when their competition, who produc es better cars, does not have said costs.
You can think we are in the 1950's all over again, but we are not. These companies will adapt or die.
The UAW is part of the problem, not the solution.
The executives should be fired, I agree, but the static costs that the company has to bear are just too much for them to remain viable.
You're an idiot. You act like everyone in the 1950's fucking died at 50 years old. Like all of a sudden people in the last 50 years are living 20 years longer? Think about it!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Have you even fucking bought a Toyota lately? Have you sat in and driven a fucking Mercedez? They are far from superior to American cars. Toyotas have as much plastic shit and breakable parts and problems as American cars. I'm living in the 50's? You're living in the fucking 80's because Japanese cars and luxury cars i.e. Benzs and BMW's in the same price range are not that much better of a car. Mazda is complete shit now. Audis are fucking shit. Saab? LOL who the fuck buys a Saab? I don't know where you live but where I live i.e. Orange County I see A SHITLOAD Of American SUVS i.e. Escalades, Yukons, etc. Americans like BIG FUCKING CARS. I don't know where the hell people get this idea that Americans aren't driving American cars and trucks. That's bullshit.
And have you been to fucking Europe lately? Rich and poor NO MIDDLE CLASS! Is that what you want America to look like? Yeah BMW is great! SO go fucking live in Germany if you love the way they do business. GM makes more hybrid vehicles than any other manufacturer. Go see how many Motortrend awards American cars have won. You're a brainwashed moron. Godbless unions even if they are corrupt. It's time the middle class gets their fucking hands dirty.........all these rich fucks have no problem getting their hands dirty and being corrupt and taking advantage of the middle class. So what if we have a few corrupt unions working for the little guy! FUCK YEAH! :)
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You're an idiot. You act like everyone in the 1950's fucking died at 50 years old. Like all of a sudden people in the last 50 years are living 20 years longer? Think about it!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Have you even fucking bought a Toyota lately? Have you sat in and driven a fucking Mercedez? They are far from superior to American cars. Toyotas have as much plastic shit and breakable parts and problems as American cars. I'm living in the 50's? You're living in the fucking 80's because Japanese cars and luxury cars i.e. Benzs and BMW's in the same price range are not that much better of a car. Mazda is complete shit now. Audis are fucking shit. Saab? LOL who the fuck buys a Saab? I don't know where you live but where I live i.e. Orange County I see A SHITLOAD Of American SUVS i.e. Escalades, Yukons, etc. Americans like BIG FUCKING CARS. I don't know where the hell people get this idea that Americans aren't driving American cars and trucks. That's bullshit.
And have you been to fucking Europe lately? Rich and poor NO MIDDLE CLASS! Is that what you want America to look like? Yeah BMW is great! SO go fucking live in Germany if you love the way they do business. GM makes more hybrid vehicles than any other manufacturer. Go see how many Motortrend awards American cars have won. You're a brainwashed moron. Godbless unions even if they are corrupt. It's time the middle class gets their fucking hands dirty.........all these rich fucks have no problem getting their hands dirty and being corrupt and taking advantage of the middle class. So what if we have a few corrupt unions working for the little guy! FUCK YEAH! :)
Damn...well said.
Besides the bailouts I will always trust American trucks over foreign still. Their 4x4, and torque/towing capacity is still so much better than foreign. Gas guzzler or not...it's actually what I need for what I do. So let's not get it twisted about all Americans that drive big trucks don't need them.
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You're an idiot. You act like everyone in the 1950's fucking died at 50 years old. Like all of a sudden people in the last 50 years are living 20 years longer? Think about it!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Have you even fucking bought a Toyota lately? Have you sat in and driven a fucking Mercedez? They are far from superior to American cars. Toyotas have as much plastic shit and breakable parts and problems as American cars. I'm living in the 50's? You're living in the fucking 80's because Japanese cars and luxury cars i.e. Benzs and BMW's in the same price range are not that much better of a car. Mazda is complete shit now. Audis are fucking shit. Saab? LOL who the fuck buys a Saab? I don't know where you live but where I live i.e. Orange County I see A SHITLOAD Of American SUVS i.e. Escalades, Yukons, etc. Americans like BIG FUCKING CARS. I don't know where the hell people get this idea that Americans aren't driving American cars and trucks. That's bullshit.
And have you been to fucking Europe lately? Rich and poor NO MIDDLE CLASS! Is that what you want America to look like? Yeah BMW is great! SO go fucking live in Germany if you love the way they do business. GM makes more hybrid vehicles than any other manufacturer. Go see how many Motortrend awards American cars have won. You're a brainwashed moron. Godbless unions even if they are corrupt. It's time the middle class gets their fucking hands dirty.........all these rich fucks have no problem getting their hands dirty and being corrupt and taking advantage of the middle class. So what if we have a few corrupt unions working for the little guy! FUCK YEAH! :)
You clowns defending the unions ignore the fact that of all the US auto's are near bankruptcy, while the others are not. Union = higher prices to the consumer with mediocre products and services. Its no different in the trades, teaching, govt, or anywhere else where there are Unions.
If you want to support a failed busuiness model with tax dollars, fine, I do not.
These companies are going away anyway unless they drastically restructure their entire business model.
Yes, they make good trucks, but that it because they can charge good money for them. They need to make a big profit on trucks to carry their pension and other costs.
They simply cant compete on the smaller cars because the profit margin is just not there. These money on every car they sell.
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Damn...well said.
Besides the bailouts I will always trust American trucks over foreign still. Their 4x4, and torque/towing capacity is still so much better than foreign. Gas guzzler or not...it's actually what I need for what I do. So let's not get it twisted about all Americans that drive big trucks don't need them.
That is what Pelosi wants a car czar for, to mandate that GM make small crap cars.
GM makes good trucks and that is about all I would ever buy from them.
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That is what Pelosi wants a car czar for, to mandate that GM make small crap cars.
GM makes good trucks and that is about all I would ever buy from them.
Well, you have a point...the car czar hasn't been declared or appointed though. So we will have to see.
You got that right...Dodge or Ford for trucks all the way!!!
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You're an idiot. You act like everyone in the 1950's fucking died at 50 years old. Like all of a sudden people in the last 50 years are living 20 years longer? Think about it!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Have you even fucking bought a Toyota lately? Have you sat in and driven a fucking Mercedez? They are far from superior to American cars. Toyotas have as much plastic shit and breakable parts and problems as American cars. I'm living in the 50's? You're living in the fucking 80's because Japanese cars and luxury cars i.e. Benzs and BMW's in the same price range are not that much better of a car. Mazda is complete shit now. Audis are fucking shit. Saab? LOL who the fuck buys a Saab? I don't know where you live but where I live i.e. Orange County I see A SHITLOAD Of American SUVS i.e. Escalades, Yukons, etc. Americans like BIG FUCKING CARS. I don't know where the hell people get this idea that Americans aren't driving American cars and trucks. That's bullshit.
And have you been to fucking Europe lately? Rich and poor NO MIDDLE CLASS! Is that what you want America to look like? Yeah BMW is great! SO go fucking live in Germany if you love the way they do business. GM makes more hybrid vehicles than any other manufacturer. Go see how many Motortrend awards American cars have won. You're a brainwashed moron. Godbless unions even if they are corrupt. It's time the middle class gets their fucking hands dirty.........all these rich fucks have no problem getting their hands dirty and being corrupt and taking advantage of the middle class. So what if we have a few corrupt unions working for the little guy! FUCK YEAH! :)
Check this out.
http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/list.php
This is where Union members' dues are going and being wasted.
The Unions are a fraud on their members.
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Check this out.
http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/list.php
This is where Union members' dues are going and being wasted.
The Unions are a fraud on their members.
Yes...They are fucked up and will have their members jobless. The union heads are frauds...
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Every union listed is a strong supporter of democrats. Not surprising but interesting. So, if any moderate democrats went against the unions, they'd be cutting their own throat.
I hate politics in this country. Everything is a game and everything is partisan.
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Every union listed is a strong supporter of democrats. Not surprising but interesting. So, if any moderate democrats went against the unions, they'd be cutting their own throat.
I hate politics in this country. Everything is a game and everything is partisan.
Isnt it amazing how much government employees unions give???
Why do govt employees need to be unionized?????
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Cuz the government won't tell anyone 'no".
Why WOULDN'T they be? Every possible holiday off, prevailing wage on everything, basically unfireable...
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Check this out.
http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/list.php
This is where Union members' dues are going and being wasted.
The Unions are a fraud on their members.
Oh yeah? WELL CHECK THIS OUT!
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Madoff-fraud-case-raises-apf-13823366.html
And you are going to call Unions corrupt? Again give me a fucking break. WallStreet and the SEC is the biggest bunch of corrupt assholes. They are fleecing Americans out of more than the UAW could ever dream of. Like I said it's time the workers and the middle class of this country starts fucking fleecing back.
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Oh yeah? WELL CHECK THIS OUT!
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Madoff-fraud-case-raises-apf-13823366.html
And you are going to call Unions corrupt? Again give me a fucking break. WallStreet and the SEC is the biggest bunch of corrupt assholes. They are fleecing Americans out of more than the UAW could ever dream of. Like I said it's time the workers and the middle class of this country starts fucking fleecing back.
This way everyone can be broke and the middle class as poor as the poor???
No thanks.
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This way everyone can be broke and the middle class as poor as the poor???
No thanks.
Your numbers just don't add up. You want Unions busted b/c you think they are a major cause of the downfall of the Big 3 automakers.
That's pure bullshit.
A unionized automobile worker makes $55 per hour ($40 real wages, $15 on health insurance, pension, and other fringes).
Let's compares apples with apples. How much US workers at Honda and Toyota make? Well they make $45 per hour. Do you really think the entire automobile crisis can be solved with $10 per hour per worker? Absolutely not.
http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.jsp?articleId=281474977531347
What I find interesting about these rightwing hack politicians is that they promise Wall Street--out and out crooks and hucksters that really are the biggest source of the credit meltdown in this country--700 billion dollars with no oversight. The fucking contract was 3 pages.
Now the Big 3 auto makers ask for a LOAN of 14 billion and assfucks like Shelby and that jerkoff from Tennessee think it's Socialism.
Fuck the republican union busters.
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Your numbers just don't add up. You want Unions busted b/c you think they are a major cause of the downfall of the Big 3 automakers.
That's pure bullshit.
A unionized automobile worker makes $55 per hour ($40 real wages, $15 on health insurance, pension, and other fringes).
Let's compares apples with apples. How much US workers at Honda and Toyota make? Well they make $45 per hour. Do you really think the entire automobile crisis can be solved with $10 per hour per worker? Absolutely not.
http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.jsp?articleId=281474977531347
What I find interesting about these rightwing hack politicians is that they promise Wall Street--out and out crooks and hucksters that really are the biggest source of the credit meltdown in this country--700 billion dollars with no oversight. The fucking contract was 3 pages.
Now the Big 3 auto makers ask for a LOAN of 14 billion and assfucks like Shelby and that jerkoff from Tennessee think it's Socialism.
Fuck the republican union busters.
Wall Street gives more to democrats than republicans.
http://www.businessandmedia.org/articles/2008/20081031114947.aspx
BTW - 15 billion only gets them to January. They really need about 100 Billion.
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I guess you dont count the fact that somehow Toyota, Honda, BMW, all make cars here and are not near bankruptcy????
Are those workers slaves?????
they are asian right? There you go.....
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I have read this thread and it is all so stupid.
It is obvious.
The unions couldn't get the concessions without coporate agreeing to the terms.
Ergo, if you think the unions are a failure, you must look to the corporate heads of the company .
It is the business of the union to look after the welfare of worker.
It is the business of the corporaton to look after the welfare of the company.
The corporation agreed to the terms of the union. There was no gun held to anyone's head.
Concessions and terms were agreed upon without the longterm speculation of the stock of the company on the global market.
You reap what you sow.
Sandra
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You clowns defending the unions ignore the fact that of all the US auto's are near bankruptcy, while the others are not. Union = higher prices to the consumer with mediocre products and services. Its no different in the trades, teaching, govt, or anywhere else where there are Unions.
If you want to support a failed busuiness model with tax dollars, fine, I do not.
These companies are going away anyway unless they drastically restructure their entire business model.
Yes, they make good trucks, but that it because they can charge good money for them. They need to make a big profit on trucks to carry their pension and other costs.
They simply cant compete on the smaller cars because the profit margin is just not there. These money on every car they sell.
Did it ever occur to you that foreign automakers have universal healthcare? That foreign automakers have gov. provided retirement benefits. That foreign automakers have been bailed out by their governments?
Does any of that enter into your thought processes? Does it really come down to product only?
How do you know that pension costs for union workers are dooming the big 3?
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Did it ever occur to you that foreign automakers have universal healthcare? That foreign automakers have gov. provided retirement benefits. That foreign automakers have been bailed out by their governments?
Does any of that enter into your thought processes? Does it really come down to product only?
How do you know that pension costs for union workers are dooming the big 3?
It doesnt matter what you think, they are going bankrupt either very soon, or in the near future.
Just by virtue of the fact that they are begging for tax dollars from you and me shows that they are not viable or sustainable without drastic changes.
If they refuse to do it, they deserve to go away. I feel bad for the workers, but of the greedy pigs running the Union and the corporation care at all about the workers, they will acceed to these changes.
Only a delusional leftist thinks otherwise.
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It doesnt matter what you think, they are going bankrupt either very soon, or in the near future.
Just by virtue of the fact that they are begging for tax dollars from you and me shows that they are not viable or sustainable without drastic changes.
If they refuse to do it, they deserve to go away. I feel bad for the workers, but of the greedy pigs running the Union and the corporation care at all about the workers, they will acceed to these changes.
Only a delusional leftist thinks otherwise.
My point is, is that if foreign auto makers need gov. provided healthcare, pensions and bail-outs, why should our system be any different?
Considering the millions of jobs that are at stake, I'd think you'd be a little more receptive to the analysis.
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My point is, is that if foreign auto makers need gov. provided healthcare, pensions and bail-outs, why should our system be any different?
Considering the millions of jobs that are at stake, I'd think you'd be a little more receptive to the analysis.
My only worry is the workers. The only reason i would support a loan at this point is because he cost of unemployment for all these people over an extended peior of time is likely to ecplise the cost of the loan. Thus, we are screwed either way and if we have to pay anything, it should be to keep people working.
Also, why cany the govt just order cars from these people for use or resale or order military vehicles from them for use overseas.
I also would support a huge tax credit to people to buy GM or Ford cars and the govt govt covering a long warranty to get people in the door.
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My only worry is the workers. The only reason i would support a loan at this point is because he cost of unemployment for all these people over an extended peior of time is likely to ecplise the cost of the loan. Thus, we are screwed either way and if we have to pay anything, it should be to keep people working.
Also, why cany the govt just order cars from these people for use or resale or order military vehicles from them for use overseas.
I also would support a huge tax credit to people to buy GM or Ford cars and the govt govt covering a long warranty to get people in the door.
I have no idea how this problem will be fixed or if it can be fixed. Paul Krugman thinks that the Big 3 will die. That took me by surprise. I've read his books and admire his work.
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He probably thinks they will die because the companies will not restructure themselves.
Also, even though foreign autos have received bailouts how long ago was that?
Did the companies adjust accordingly so it wouldn't happen again?
Were the loans paid back in full?
So should the government very possibly just delay the inevitable with these two companies or let them go?
This is a very sticky situation. I honestly don't think that GM or Chrysler will survive in the long term regardless what we do. I'm also very concerned about the workers, middle class, etc. This will truly have a trickle down effect if they go under. My thing is I don't want the Unions busted up, degraded, or done away with; I do think that EVERYBODY will have to sacrifice something to keep their jobs. If not, union worker or not, people will not have a job to go to period. That has been my point all along. It's sad to see that the workers are caught up in the middle of shitty managers and yes, Decker believe it or not, a corrupt Union.
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I have no idea how this problem will be fixed or if it can be fixed. Paul Krugman thinks that the Big 3 will die. That took me by surprise. I've read his books and admire his work.
Like I said, my problem is that allowing them to go away will cost more money if all these people go on unemployment and collect for 6 months.
Either way we are going to pay, and if we have to, its better to keep people working than on unemployment.
That said, these companies need to figure out how to sell more cars at more of a profit.