$73 an Hour: Adding It Up

[MuscleMcMannus]

Legacy costs?  haha that's funny you call it legacy costs.  50 years ago my grandfather and yours would have called it standard of living.  Fuck me if the UAW demands a decent living, retirement at 55, and good benefits.  That's what America used to be about.  You can thank globalization for this shithole of a conundrum we are in now.  America trying to keep up with third world labor?  Makes no fucking sense.  The only thing that's going to happen is the wealthier get wealthy and the standard of living for the average American goes down.  Exactly what's happening now.  This shit is all planned morons!  NWO!  Where's my fucking tin hat bitches??

[MuscleMcMannus]

Legacy costs = a decent wage

Creative accounting = fucking someone over

How many more politically correct terms can we think of nowadays that mean jack shit?

[MuscleMcMannus]

Why stop with the UAW...I mean fuck why dont' we just reduce wages to that of Chinese laborers?  I mean then we'll REALLY be competitive right?  Fucking brainwashed sheeple. 

[JOCKTHEGLIDE]

Why stop with the UAW...I mean fuck why dont' we just reduce wages to that of Chinese laborers?  I mean then we'll REALLY be competitive right?  Fucking brainwashed sheeple. 

you cant reduce pay from a pennie a day to anything less unless we make a new currency of half a pennie or something.  .......

[MuscleMcMannus]

you cant reduce pay from a pennie a day to anything less unless we make a new currency of half a pennie or something.  .......

 

 The average Chinese laborer is making upwards of $.50 a week now.  Where have you been?

[Soul Crusher]

Legacy costs?  haha that's funny you call it legacy costs.  50 years ago my grandfather and yours would have called it standard of living.  Fuck me if the UAW demands a decent living, retirement at 55, and good benefits.  That's what America used to be about.  You can thank globalization for this shithole of a conundrum we are in now.  America trying to keep up with third world labor?  Makes no fucking sense.  The only thing that's going to happen is the wealthier get wealthy and the standard of living for the average American goes down.  Exactly what's happening now.  This shit is all planned morons!  NWO!  Where's my fucking tin hat bitches??

Blah blah blah.  When these pensions were put into place, the average life expectancy was much less than today and health care cost a ton less.

Its simply insane to allow a person at 55 to retire and have all these costs put on the company when their competition, who produc es better cars, does not have said costs.

You can think we are in the 1950's all over again, but we are not.  These companies will adapt or die.

The UAW is part of the problem, not the solution. 

The executives should be fired, I agree, but the static costs that the company has to bear are just too much for them to remain viable.

[Decker]

You dont sound academic, you sound like the governor of Illinois.

BTW - obviously you have never a run a business.  Blaming the customer and potential customer is not a recipe for  success.

Here's a recipe for you.  If labor costs represent less than 10% of the cost of each vehicle, how does destroying union contracts 'fix' the Big 3's problems?

It doesn't.  Why?  B/c elites like yourself have been trying to get rid of unions for years b/c any cost of labor is too high to the monied class.

Unions have caved on their wages, their healthcare, their overtime and still that's not enough for you b/c you live in a world where union is baaaad.  Wake up and open your eyes.

You elites use a down economy as a pretext to rid yourself of unionized labor--I guess decent healthcare for a family gets under your skin for some reason.

BTW I have run a business.  I have  had employees.  And you come off sounding like a whiner.

[Decker]

Legacy costs?  haha that's funny you call it legacy costs.  50 years ago my grandfather and yours would have called it standard of living.  Fuck me if the UAW demands a decent living, retirement at 55, and good benefits.  That's what America used to be about.  You can thank globalization for this shithole of a conundrum we are in now.  America trying to keep up with third world labor?  Makes no fucking sense.  The only thing that's going to happen is the wealthier get wealthy and the standard of living for the average American goes down.  Exactly what's happening now.  This shit is all planned morons!  NWO!  Where's my fucking tin hat bitches??

Great points.  It's amazing how the working class thinks unions just suck.  Fuck how propaganda works.

People like 3333333333 have no concept of the underlying accounting/economics of the situation yet they are damn sure it's the unions' fault.

Guys like 3333333333 will not be happy until we have indentured servitude...work for food....and soup kitchens.

After all ...WE GOTTA COMPETE.  Yeah, with Indian kids making a nickel a day, no safety, health or environmental protections, no worker protection...nothing but dirtcheap labor.

There's the magic of your fucking market.

[Soul Crusher]

Here's a recipe for you.  If labor costs represent less than 10% of the cost of each vehicle, how does destroying union contracts 'fix' the Big 3's problems?

It doesn't.  Why?  B/c elites like yourself have been trying to get rid of unions for years b/c any cost of labor is too high to the monied class.

Unions have caved on their wages, their healthcare, their overtime and still that's not enough for you b/c you live in a world where union is baaaad.  Wake up and open your eyes.

You elites use a down economy as a pretext to rid yourself of unionized labor--I guess decent healthcare for a family gets under your skin for some reason.

BTW I have run a business.  I have  had employees.  And you come off sounding like a whiner.

Again, what is it that you dont get???

These companies need to sell alot of cars at a profit in order to make enough money to operate their business and pay their pension and health care obligations.

Currently they do not sell enough cars to carry these burdens and pay their expenses.

Due to the fact that they are not gaining market share with better, more affordable, reliable products in relation to their competition, they need to shed costs and operating expenses in order to remain viable.  This is economics 101 and does not require a high level of sophistication to understand.

GM and Ford need to either drastically cut their costs or figure out a way to sell many more cars at a profit.

If they dont  . . . . . well . . . . they will go bankrupt.

Is it that hard for you to understand this?   

[Soul Crusher]

I guess you dont count the fact that somehow Toyota, Honda, BMW, all make cars here and are not near bankruptcy?

Are those workers slaves??

[Decker]

Again, what is it that you dont get???

These companies need to sell alot of cars at a profit in order to make enough money to operate their business and pay their pension and health care obligations.

Currently they do not sell enough cars to carry these burdens and pay their expenses.

Due to the fact that they are not gaining market share with better, more affordable, reliable products in relation to their competition, they need to shed costs and operating expenses in order to remain viable.  This is economics 101 and does not require a high level of sophistication to understand.

GM and Ford need to either drastically cut their costs or figure out a way to sell many more cars at a profit.

If they dont  . . . . . well . . . . they will go bankrupt.

Is it that hard for you to understand this?   

Oh, so it's just a matter of economics 101.  Cuts have to be made and the luxury of health and retirement have to be cut as well b/c no one is buying the cars. 

It is that simple.

First of all, your the typical rightwinger--you talk a good game about responsibility but when I point out the fact that the US consumer is contributing to the downfall of the car industry, you spread 'em wide with the 'customer is always right' bullshit.

If American fuckheads were not buying the inefficient trucks put out by the big 3, the trucks would not be produced for long.  The american consumer is pretty much a dolt and the operation of the 'free market' has borne that out. 

The demand was there for the gas guzzlers.  Remember the jokes and braggarts about how big my truck is!  Fuck the american consumer...he cuts his own throat, anyway--let's shop at Walmart this holiday season b/c my dollar goes further!...b/c Walmart is the Big 3's future--products made by slave labor and pushed by underpaid & underinsured sales and service staff....yes, it's all falling into place now.

We have to remain competitive.

But is that the reason?  Why did this mess happen?  Is it b/c the union workers have healthcare and a retirement plan?

NO.

Is it b/c executives/accountants have bungled their forecasts for sales over the years?  They spend money on projected sales and when those sales don't materialize, we have a problem.  Excess capacity.  Maybe.

Your  solution, a quaint throwback to another time, is no solution at all.

The Big 3 have failed.  The reverberations throughout our country will be massive.  We will suffer.

Globalized competition is in full force.

Now UAW has to fight to pick over the carcass.

[Decker]

I guess you dont count the fact that somehow Toyota, Honda, BMW, all make cars here and are not near bankruptcy?

Are those workers slaves??

Toyota‡‡ 130,307 197,189 –33.9%

BMW Group* 19,784 27,021 –26.8%

American Honda† 76,233 111,431 –31.6%

Isuzu 130 496 –73.8%

Suzuki 3,216 5,987 –46.3%

Chrysler LLC** 85,260 161,088 –47.1%

General Motors***** 153,404 261,273 –41.3%

Looks like losses are across the board.  No?

http://www.autonews.com/article/20081202/ANA05/812029986/1078

[MRDUMPLING]

So let me get this straight.  It's ok for the executive class to have private jets, ski villas in the Alps, 3,4 or 5 homes, all paid for by the productivity of past and current workers and when the market sours, the thing to be jettisoned is the employee's health and retirement plans.

Do you see why 3333's argument is just bullshit propaganda? 

You say the business model is not feasible.  What business model? 

The business has already failed.  The Big 3 will be reorganized.  That's capitalism for you.  That's why they need a bailout. 

Since Toyota's profits were down 74% this past reporting period, I don't think we should be tapping them for info on how to run a business.  That, and the fact that Toyota's been bailed out before by its government.

Thanks for putting words into my mouth.  I never said it's ok for the CEOs to enjoy the finer things in life paid for by the work of others.  The business model that has been in place for the last 30 years...please read I know you are better than that.  The Big 3 have known they were operating under a flawed business model for decades now and have done nothing.  You are the one that believes the bullshit if you think if these companies get a bailout that they will truly "reorganize".  Sorry, it just isn't going to happen...they have been lying to the consumer for years now; I doubt they are telling the truth in this respect.

I don't want all of the pensions or benefits to go.  I think it is fair to look at the amount(that we all agree is a pretty penny) and renegotiate the contracts.  Sorry Decker, but getting paid to NOT work is NEVER a good idea period.  That is a very real problem.  That's the one area I truly have a problem with.  Benefits, retirement, medical insurance, I'm cool with that.  I haven't seen any numbers whether or not unions get THE BEST cover etc. for their members.

We can still look at Toyota as I'm sure their profits have dropped based on our economy; not the way they run their business.  What I meant about the Toyota business is how are their employess doing finacially?  You can still pay your employees and give them benefits as foreign automakers do.  Also, their CEOs do not get nearly the amount of compensation that the Big 3 do.  

I have a very big problem with the banks getting the massive amount of bailout that they have received.  I am more open to a bailout for manufacturing jobs as they produce a real product.  The thing is...the Big 3 aren't just on hard times like the rest of us.  They ran their businesses into the ground, the American consumer knows this as our lack of buying American cars shows.  

[MRDUMPLING]

Thanks to the American fucktard, hmmm.  Buying big trucks...well, there you go not knowing about the product.  American trucks are still very good, it's the rest of the line that is a problem.  Sports cars, SUVs, etc. 

Look who has lost the most though with those numbers.

Regarding Wal-Mart...I as I'm sure most of us do our best not to support that horrible business.  The thing is, can you blame people for shopping there?  We all know why it's cheap, but in hard times like this and with people making less money anyways...I'm slow to criticize people for shopping there.  I feel fortunate enough to where I DON'T have to shop there.  So what your saying is the poor people that you always defend are stupid for going to the cheapest place to spend the limited income that they have?  While I can't stand Wal-Mart they do provide for people that are on a very real budget.  A catch .22 if you will.

[Soul Crusher]

Those figures represent the fact that sales are down, yes, but they are not losing billions a month like GM.  Ford is in better shape than GM and Chrysler.

I am not saying the Unions are the only problem, but they are part of the problem.  

The execs should all be fired immediately!  Their pay should be cut drastically as well and no golden parachutes, I agree with that.

However, following the same path that they have for the last 20 years is only leading them to bankrupcy unless they figure out a way to sell more cars at a profit.

[Decker]

Thanks for putting words into my mouth.  I never said it's ok for the CEOs to enjoy the finer things in life paid for by the work of others.  The business model that has been in place for the last 30 years...please read I know you are better than that.  The Big 3 have known they were operating under a flawed business model for decades now and have done nothing.  You are the one that believes the bullshit if you think if these companies get a bailout that they will truly "reorganize".  Sorry, it just isn't going to happen...they have been lying to the consumer for years now; I doubt they are telling the truth in this respect.

The Big 3 are history.  It's just a matter of picking over the carcass.  We will all drive foreign cars now.  These companies are not coming back.

I

don't want all of the pensions or benefits to go.  I think it is fair to look at the amount(that we all agree is a pretty penny) and renegotiate the contracts.  Sorry Decker, but getting paid to NOT work is NEVER a good idea period.  That is a very real problem.  That's the one area I truly have a problem with.  Benefits, retirement, medical insurance, I'm cool with that.  I haven't seen any numbers whether or not unions get THE BEST cover etc. for their members.

Getting paid not to work happens every day to every single salaried person in the country.  Get over that non-factor.

We can still look at Toyota as I'm sure their profits have dropped based on our economy; not the way they run their business.  What I meant about the Toyota business is how are their employess doing finacially?  You can still pay your employees and give them benefits as foreign automakers do.  Also, their CEOs do not get nearly the amount of compensation that the Big 3 do.

Every car producer is suffering the same 30-50% loss in sales revenue.  But I see nothing to contend with in your idea here. 

I have a very big problem with the banks getting the massive amount of bailout that they have received.  I am more open to a bailout for manufacturing jobs as they produce a real product.  The thing is...the Big 3 aren't just on hard times like the rest of us.  They ran their businesses into the ground, the American consumer knows this as our lack of buying American cars shows.  

I think the problem of the big 3 is this:  market demands turned on them and globalization caught up with them.  It's all over.  They will be history.  And Detroit will be famous for fielding an 0-16 team in the NFL.

The US economy will not overcome this failure any time soon.

[Soul Crusher]

More doom and gloom. 

These companies have a flawed business model that cannot sustain itself without taxpayer money. 

[Decker]

Thanks to the American fucktard, hmmm.  Buying big trucks...well, there you go not knowing about the product.  American trucks are still very good, it's the rest of the line that is a problem.  Sports cars, SUVs, etc. 

Truck sales are good according to you?  Not according to GM:  They are doing worse than car sales.  You got it backwards.

GM truck sales of 97,119 were down 51 percent and car sales of 73,466 were off 34 percent.
http://www.paddocktalk.com/news/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=98206&newlang=&topic=33&catid=56

Look who has lost the most though with those numbers.

Regarding Wal-Mart...I as I'm sure most of us do our best not to support that horrible business.  The thing is, can you blame people for shopping there?  We all know why it's cheap, but in hard times like this and with people making less money anyways...I'm slow to criticize people for shopping there.  I feel fortunate enough to where I DON'T have to shop there.  So what your saying is the poor people that you always defend are stupid for going to the cheapest place to spend the limited income that they have?  While I can't stand Wal-Mart they do provide for people that are on a very real budget.  A catch .22 if you will.

That's sort of what I'm saying.  The more these addict-like consumers spend at Walmart, the more it destroys the middle class fabric of this country.  They cut their own throats shopping at unamerican stores like Walmart.

[MRDUMPLING]

Truck sales are good according to you?  Not according to GM:  They are doing worse than car sales.  You got it backwards.

GM truck sales of 97,119 were down 51 percent and car sales of 73,466 were off 34 percent.
http://www.paddocktalk.com/news/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=98206&newlang=&topic=33&catid=56
That's sort of what I'm saying.  The more these addict-like consumers spend at Walmart, the more it destroys the middle class fabric of this country.  They cut their own throats shopping at unamerican stores like Walmart.

Let me clarify...I believe the quality of American trucks is still good, not their sales.

Then what can be a solution to this non-American company?

Has anyone seen the high cost of low prices?  It's a documentary about Wal-Mart...it's eye opening disgusting stuff.

The thing is though salaried workers have a job...they aren't sitting in a "job-bank".

[MuscleMcMannus]

Blah blah blah.  When these pensions were put into place, the average life expectancy was much less than today and health care cost a ton less.

Its simply insane to allow a person at 55 to retire and have all these costs put on the company when their competition, who produc es better cars, does not have said costs.

You can think we are in the 1950's all over again, but we are not.  These companies will adapt or die.

The UAW is part of the problem, not the solution. 

The executives should be fired, I agree, but the static costs that the company has to bear are just too much for them to remain viable.

You're an idiot.  You act like everyone in the 1950's fucking died at 50 years old.  Like all of a sudden people in the last 50 years are living 20 years longer?  Think about it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Have you even fucking bought a Toyota lately?  Have you sat in and driven a fucking Mercedez?  They are far from superior to American cars.  Toyotas have as much plastic shit and breakable parts and problems as American cars.  I'm living in the 50's?  You're living in the fucking 80's because Japanese cars and luxury cars i.e. Benzs and BMW's in the same price range are not that much better of a car.  Mazda is complete shit now.  Audis are fucking shit.  Saab?  LOL who the fuck buys a Saab?  I don't know where you live but where I live i.e. Orange County I see A SHITLOAD Of American SUVS i.e. Escalades, Yukons, etc.  Americans like BIG FUCKING CARS.  I don't know where the hell people get this idea that Americans aren't driving American cars and trucks.  That's bullshit. 

And have you been to fucking Europe lately?  Rich and poor NO MIDDLE CLASS!  Is that what you want America to look like?  Yeah BMW is great!  SO go fucking live in Germany if you love the way they do business.  GM makes more hybrid vehicles than any other manufacturer.  Go see how many Motortrend awards American cars have won.  You're a brainwashed moron.  Godbless unions even if they are corrupt.  It's time the middle class gets their fucking hands dirty.........all these rich fucks have no problem getting their hands dirty and being corrupt and taking advantage of the middle class.  So what if we have a few corrupt unions working for the little guy!  FUCK YEAH!   

[MRDUMPLING]

You're an idiot.  You act like everyone in the 1950's fucking died at 50 years old.  Like all of a sudden people in the last 50 years are living 20 years longer?  Think about it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Have you even fucking bought a Toyota lately?  Have you sat in and driven a fucking Mercedez?  They are far from superior to American cars.  Toyotas have as much plastic shit and breakable parts and problems as American cars.  I'm living in the 50's?  You're living in the fucking 80's because Japanese cars and luxury cars i.e. Benzs and BMW's in the same price range are not that much better of a car.  Mazda is complete shit now.  Audis are fucking shit.  Saab?  LOL who the fuck buys a Saab?  I don't know where you live but where I live i.e. Orange County I see A SHITLOAD Of American SUVS i.e. Escalades, Yukons, etc.  Americans like BIG FUCKING CARS.  I don't know where the hell people get this idea that Americans aren't driving American cars and trucks.  That's bullshit. 

And have you been to fucking Europe lately?  Rich and poor NO MIDDLE CLASS!  Is that what you want America to look like?  Yeah BMW is great!  SO go fucking live in Germany if you love the way they do business.  GM makes more hybrid vehicles than any other manufacturer.  Go see how many Motortrend awards American cars have won.  You're a brainwashed moron.  Godbless unions even if they are corrupt.  It's time the middle class gets their fucking hands dirty.........all these rich fucks have no problem getting their hands dirty and being corrupt and taking advantage of the middle class.  So what if we have a few corrupt unions working for the little guy!  FUCK YEAH!   

Damn...well said. 

Besides the bailouts I will always trust American trucks over foreign still.  Their 4x4, and torque/towing capacity is still so much better than foreign.  Gas guzzler or not...it's actually what I need for what I do.  So let's not get it twisted about all Americans that drive big trucks don't need them.

[Soul Crusher]

You're an idiot.  You act like everyone in the 1950's fucking died at 50 years old.  Like all of a sudden people in the last 50 years are living 20 years longer?  Think about it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Have you even fucking bought a Toyota lately?  Have you sat in and driven a fucking Mercedez?  They are far from superior to American cars.  Toyotas have as much plastic shit and breakable parts and problems as American cars.  I'm living in the 50's?  You're living in the fucking 80's because Japanese cars and luxury cars i.e. Benzs and BMW's in the same price range are not that much better of a car.  Mazda is complete shit now.  Audis are fucking shit.  Saab?  LOL who the fuck buys a Saab?  I don't know where you live but where I live i.e. Orange County I see A SHITLOAD Of American SUVS i.e. Escalades, Yukons, etc.  Americans like BIG FUCKING CARS.  I don't know where the hell people get this idea that Americans aren't driving American cars and trucks.  That's bullshit. 

And have you been to fucking Europe lately?  Rich and poor NO MIDDLE CLASS!  Is that what you want America to look like?  Yeah BMW is great!  SO go fucking live in Germany if you love the way they do business.  GM makes more hybrid vehicles than any other manufacturer.  Go see how many Motortrend awards American cars have won.  You're a brainwashed moron.  Godbless unions even if they are corrupt.  It's time the middle class gets their fucking hands dirty.........all these rich fucks have no problem getting their hands dirty and being corrupt and taking advantage of the middle class.  So what if we have a few corrupt unions working for the little guy!  FUCK YEAH!   

You clowns defending the unions ignore the fact that of all the US auto's are near bankruptcy, while the others are not.  Union = higher prices to the consumer with mediocre products and services.  Its no different in the trades, teaching, govt, or anywhere else where there are Unions.

If you want to support a failed busuiness model with tax dollars, fine, I do not.

These companies are going away anyway unless they drastically restructure their entire business model.

Yes, they make good trucks, but that it because they can charge good money for them.  They need to make a big profit on trucks to carry their pension and other costs.

They simply cant compete on the smaller cars because the profit margin is just not there.  These money on every car they sell.
 
 

[Soul Crusher]

Damn...well said. 

Besides the bailouts I will always trust American trucks over foreign still.  Their 4x4, and torque/towing capacity is still so much better than foreign.  Gas guzzler or not...it's actually what I need for what I do.  So let's not get it twisted about all Americans that drive big trucks don't need them.

That is what Pelosi wants a car czar for, to mandate that GM make small crap cars.

GM makes good trucks and that is about all I would ever buy from them.

[MRDUMPLING]

That is what Pelosi wants a car czar for, to mandate that GM make small crap cars.

GM makes good trucks and that is about all I would ever buy from them.

Well, you have a point...the car czar hasn't been declared or appointed though.  So we will have to see. 

You got that right...Dodge or Ford for trucks all the way!!!

[Soul Crusher]

You're an idiot.  You act like everyone in the 1950's fucking died at 50 years old.  Like all of a sudden people in the last 50 years are living 20 years longer?  Think about it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Have you even fucking bought a Toyota lately?  Have you sat in and driven a fucking Mercedez?  They are far from superior to American cars.  Toyotas have as much plastic shit and breakable parts and problems as American cars.  I'm living in the 50's?  You're living in the fucking 80's because Japanese cars and luxury cars i.e. Benzs and BMW's in the same price range are not that much better of a car.  Mazda is complete shit now.  Audis are fucking shit.  Saab?  LOL who the fuck buys a Saab?  I don't know where you live but where I live i.e. Orange County I see A SHITLOAD Of American SUVS i.e. Escalades, Yukons, etc.  Americans like BIG FUCKING CARS.  I don't know where the hell people get this idea that Americans aren't driving American cars and trucks.  That's bullshit. 

And have you been to fucking Europe lately?  Rich and poor NO MIDDLE CLASS!  Is that what you want America to look like?  Yeah BMW is great!  SO go fucking live in Germany if you love the way they do business.  GM makes more hybrid vehicles than any other manufacturer.  Go see how many Motortrend awards American cars have won.  You're a brainwashed moron.  Godbless unions even if they are corrupt.  It's time the middle class gets their fucking hands dirty.........all these rich fucks have no problem getting their hands dirty and being corrupt and taking advantage of the middle class.  So what if we have a few corrupt unions working for the little guy!  FUCK YEAH!   

Check this out.

http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/list.php

This is where Union members' dues are going and being wasted. 

The Unions are a fraud on their members.