$73 an Hour: Adding It Up

[Option D]

Check this out.

http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/list.php

This is where Union members' dues are going and being wasted. 

The Unions are a fraud on their members.

Yes...They are fucked up and will have their members jobless. The union heads are frauds...

[shootfighter1]

Every union listed is a strong supporter of democrats.  Not surprising but interesting.  So, if any moderate democrats went against the unions, they'd be cutting their own throat.
I hate politics in this country.  Everything is a game and everything is partisan.

[Soul Crusher]

Every union listed is a strong supporter of democrats.  Not surprising but interesting.  So, if any moderate democrats went against the unions, they'd be cutting their own throat.
I hate politics in this country.  Everything is a game and everything is partisan.

Isnt it amazing how much government employees unions give???

Why do govt employees need to be unionized??

[Hereford]

Cuz the government won't tell anyone 'no".

Why WOULDN'T they be? Every possible holiday off, prevailing wage on everything, basically unfireable...

[MuscleMcMannus]

Check this out.

http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/list.php

This is where Union members' dues are going and being wasted. 

The Unions are a fraud on their members.

Oh yeah?  WELL CHECK THIS OUT!
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Madoff-fraud-case-raises-apf-13823366.html

And you are going to call Unions corrupt?  Again give me a fucking break.  WallStreet and the SEC is the biggest bunch of corrupt assholes.  They are fleecing Americans out of more than the UAW could ever dream of.  Like I said it's time the workers and the middle class of this country starts fucking fleecing back. 

[Soul Crusher]

Oh yeah?  WELL CHECK THIS OUT!
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Madoff-fraud-case-raises-apf-13823366.html

And you are going to call Unions corrupt?  Again give me a fucking break.  WallStreet and the SEC is the biggest bunch of corrupt assholes.  They are fleecing Americans out of more than the UAW could ever dream of.  Like I said it's time the workers and the middle class of this country starts fucking fleecing back. 

This way everyone can be broke and the middle class as poor as the poor???

No thanks.

[Decker]

This way everyone can be broke and the middle class as poor as the poor???

No thanks.

Your numbers just don't add up.  You want Unions busted b/c you think they are a major cause of the downfall of the Big 3 automakers.

That's pure bullshit.

A unionized automobile worker makes $55 per hour ($40 real wages, $15 on health insurance, pension, and other fringes).

Let's compares apples with apples. How much US workers at Honda and Toyota make? Well they make $45 per hour. Do you really  think the entire automobile crisis can be solved with $10 per hour per worker? Absolutely not.
http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.jsp?articleId=281474977531347

What I find interesting about these rightwing hack politicians is that they promise Wall Street--out and out crooks and hucksters that really are the biggest source of the credit meltdown in this country--700 billion dollars with no oversight.  The fucking contract was 3 pages.

Now the Big 3 auto makers ask for a LOAN of 14 billion and assfucks like Shelby and that jerkoff from Tennessee think it's Socialism.

Fuck the republican union busters.

[Soul Crusher]

Your numbers just don't add up.  You want Unions busted b/c you think they are a major cause of the downfall of the Big 3 automakers.

That's pure bullshit.

A unionized automobile worker makes $55 per hour ($40 real wages, $15 on health insurance, pension, and other fringes).

Let's compares apples with apples. How much US workers at Honda and Toyota make? Well they make $45 per hour. Do you really  think the entire automobile crisis can be solved with $10 per hour per worker? Absolutely not.
http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.jsp?articleId=281474977531347

What I find interesting about these rightwing hack politicians is that they promise Wall Street--out and out crooks and hucksters that really are the biggest source of the credit meltdown in this country--700 billion dollars with no oversight.  The fucking contract was 3 pages.

Now the Big 3 auto makers ask for a LOAN of 14 billion and assfucks like Shelby and that jerkoff from Tennessee think it's Socialism.

Fuck the republican union busters.

Wall Street gives more to democrats than republicans.

http://www.businessandmedia.org/articles/2008/20081031114947.aspx



BTW - 15 billion only gets them to January.  They really need about 100 Billion. 

[JOCKTHEGLIDE]

I guess you dont count the fact that somehow Toyota, Honda, BMW, all make cars here and are not near bankruptcy?

Are those workers slaves??

they are asian right?  There you go.....

[muscleforlife]

I have read this thread and it is all so stupid.

It is obvious.
The unions couldn't get the concessions without coporate agreeing to the terms.
Ergo, if you think the unions are a failure, you must look to the corporate heads of the company .

It is the business of the union to look after the welfare of worker. 
It is the business of the corporaton to look after the welfare of the company.
The corporation agreed to the terms of the union. There was no gun held to anyone's head.
Concessions and terms were agreed upon without the longterm  speculation of the stock of the company on the global market.
You reap what you sow.   

Sandra

[Decker]

You clowns defending the unions ignore the fact that of all the US auto's are near bankruptcy, while the others are not.  Union = higher prices to the consumer with mediocre products and services.  Its no different in the trades, teaching, govt, or anywhere else where there are Unions.

If you want to support a failed busuiness model with tax dollars, fine, I do not.

These companies are going away anyway unless they drastically restructure their entire business model.

Yes, they make good trucks, but that it because they can charge good money for them.  They need to make a big profit on trucks to carry their pension and other costs.

They simply cant compete on the smaller cars because the profit margin is just not there.  These money on every car they sell.
 
 

Did it ever occur to you that foreign automakers have universal healthcare?  That foreign automakers have gov. provided retirement benefits.  That foreign automakers have been bailed out by their governments?

Does any of that enter into your thought processes?  Does it really come down to product only? 

How do you know that pension costs for union workers are dooming the big 3?

[Soul Crusher]

Did it ever occur to you that foreign automakers have universal healthcare?  That foreign automakers have gov. provided retirement benefits.  That foreign automakers have been bailed out by their governments?

Does any of that enter into your thought processes?  Does it really come down to product only? 

How do you know that pension costs for union workers are dooming the big 3?

It doesnt matter what you think, they are going bankrupt either very soon, or in the near future.

Just by virtue of the fact that they are begging for tax dollars from you and me shows that they are not viable or sustainable without drastic changes.

If they refuse to do it, they deserve to go away.  I feel bad for the workers, but of the greedy pigs running the Union and the corporation care at all about the workers, they will acceed to these changes.

Only a delusional leftist thinks otherwise.     

[Decker]

It doesnt matter what you think, they are going bankrupt either very soon, or in the near future.

Just by virtue of the fact that they are begging for tax dollars from you and me shows that they are not viable or sustainable without drastic changes.

If they refuse to do it, they deserve to go away.  I feel bad for the workers, but of the greedy pigs running the Union and the corporation care at all about the workers, they will acceed to these changes.

Only a delusional leftist thinks otherwise.     

My point is, is that if foreign auto makers need gov. provided healthcare, pensions and bail-outs, why should our system be any different?

Considering the millions of jobs that are at stake, I'd think you'd be a little more receptive to the analysis.

[Soul Crusher]

My point is, is that if foreign auto makers need gov. provided healthcare, pensions and bail-outs, why should our system be any different?

Considering the millions of jobs that are at stake, I'd think you'd be a little more receptive to the analysis.

My only worry is the workers.  The only reason i would support a loan at this point is because he cost of unemployment for all these people over an extended peior of time is likely to ecplise the cost of the loan.  Thus, we are screwed either way and if we have to pay anything, it should be to keep people working.

Also, why cany the govt just order cars from these people for use or resale or order military vehicles from them for use overseas.

I also would support a huge tax credit to people to buy GM or Ford cars and the govt govt covering a long warranty to get people in the door.   

[Decker]

My only worry is the workers.  The only reason i would support a loan at this point is because he cost of unemployment for all these people over an extended peior of time is likely to ecplise the cost of the loan.  Thus, we are screwed either way and if we have to pay anything, it should be to keep people working.

Also, why cany the govt just order cars from these people for use or resale or order military vehicles from them for use overseas.

I also would support a huge tax credit to people to buy GM or Ford cars and the govt govt covering a long warranty to get people in the door.   

I have no idea how this problem will be fixed or if it can be fixed.  Paul Krugman thinks that the Big 3 will die.  That took me by surprise.  I've read his books and admire his work.

[MRDUMPLING]

He probably thinks they will die because the companies will not restructure themselves. 

Also, even though foreign autos have received bailouts how long ago was that? 

Did the companies adjust accordingly so it wouldn't happen again? 

Were the loans paid back in full? 

So should the government very possibly just delay the inevitable with these two companies or let them go?

This is a very sticky situation.  I honestly don't think that GM or Chrysler will survive in the long term regardless what we do.    I'm also very concerned about the workers, middle class, etc.  This will truly have a trickle down effect if they go under.  My thing is I don't want the Unions busted up, degraded, or done away with; I do think that EVERYBODY will have to sacrifice something to keep their jobs.  If not, union worker or not, people will not have a job to go to period.  That has been my point all along.  It's sad to see that the workers are caught up in the middle of shitty managers and yes, Decker believe it or not, a corrupt Union. 

[Soul Crusher]

I have no idea how this problem will be fixed or if it can be fixed.  Paul Krugman thinks that the Big 3 will die.  That took me by surprise.  I've read his books and admire his work.

Like I said, my problem is that allowing them to go away will cost more money if all these people go on unemployment and collect for 6 months.

Either way we are going to pay, and if we have to, its better to keep people working than on unemployment.

That said, these companies need to figure out how to sell more cars at more of a profit.