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Getbig Bodybuilding Boards => Steroids Info & Hardcore => Topic started by: Mr. Jingles on December 21, 2008, 08:37:43 AM
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I read the posting for HGC Therapy, I'm very concerned about my condition can someone shed some light????
I was on a long cycle and when I came down my PC therapy didn't cut it. I believe I didn't use enough HCG. After a few months of hoping to clean myself up, in preperation of my next cycle I found myself losing everything. MY sex drive was shot and I was lossing muscle like crazy, putting on bodyfat and feeling very tired. I went to the doctor's for blood work, my test levels were scary low. I was then sent to my urologist. Who did more blood work to discover my LH was virually non existent. He told me he'd put me on HCG again hoping to up start my system.
I was with him last Tuesday and asked if I could self administer ofcourse he told me no because it's an IM shot. He then said he would check the proper and most current protocol and get back to me with an appointment which was to be in 2 days and I haven't heard from him. Is he expecting me to take care of business and if so what would be the best protocol. Fellas I'm seriously freaking out, I want to get my body normal so I can get ready for spring?
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We need more information!
Cycle history
last cycle info
PCT that was run
age and personal stats
Where were your test levels before the cycle?
If it was me I would run another PCT. Personally I would run it like this:
week 1-3 clomid 25-100mg ed (clomid works well at these doses 25, 50, or 100mg ed is personal choice. I prefer 25mg ed)
week 1-6 aromasin 25mg ed (the aromasin will bring up your natural test levels and will not kill estrogen)
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I read the posting for HGC Therapy, I'm very concerned about my condition can someone shed some light????
I was on a long cycle and when I came down my PC therapy didn't cut it. I believe I didn't use enough HCG. After a few months of hoping to clean myself up, in preperation of my next cycle I found myself losing everything. MY sex drive was shot and I was lossing muscle like crazy, putting on bodyfat and feeling very tired. I went to the doctor's for blood work, my test levels were scary low. I was then sent to my urologist. Who did more blood work to discover my LH was virually non existent. He told me he'd put me on HCG again hoping to up start my system.
I was with him last Tuesday and asked if I could self administer ofcourse he told me no because it's an IM shot. He then said he would check the proper and most current protocol and get back to me with an appointment which was to be in 2 days and I haven't heard from him. Is he expecting me to take care of business and if so what would be the best protocol. Fellas I'm seriously freaking out, I want to get my body normal so I can get ready for spring?
If LH is low HCG is not going to bring it up. A SERM would be what I'd try (assuming the testes respond to HCG/LH). Usually LH recovers easier but the testes do not respond well.
What did you do for PCT?
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Jingles how many cycles have you done in the past?...If arnold jr could chime in about this it would be great...i believe he went through something very similar...this has to be one of my worst fears from juicing..losing my natural test levels
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If LH is low HCG is not going to bring it up. A SERM would be what I'd try (assuming the testes respond to HCG/LH). Usually LH recovers easier but the testes do not respond well.What did you do for PCT?
I would suspect this is because the first surges of LH from the hypo will be small and being sent to atrophied testes. This will greatly increase recovery time. Agree a SERM would be best bet, more fake LH (HCG) will just supress GnRH more. Beating back Estro is also the battle.
I cant think of any way to really beat a post cycle crash, you really have to just get off all the hormones to stop all the negative feedback loops.
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Trust me Fellas,
This is a very frustrating issue. Truly a very bad dream!!
I'm 44 yrs. old 5'11", 200 lbs.
I did 2 cycles back in the 80's and didn't touch the sauce for 18 yrs. I started using again 5 yrs. ago.
I pretty much did what I wanted and really didn't have a coach to direct me. So, this is what happens when one thinks he's ot it all figured out.
This past cycle was like 8 months long, before that I'd taken about 4 months off from another long cycle. My body has degenerated everything I've done and I look fuckin terrible and feel even worse.
Last cycle:
started in Feb 08, Trend 75 mg. eod 1+16 weeks
Test 250 mg. twice a week 1+16 wks
I took arimedic & HCG post cycle for 3 weeks
Second cycle:
Mestronon 750 mg. once a wk. 1+8 weeks
Wintrol 50 mg. eod 4+8 weeks
Arimedic and HCG for 3 weeks at the end
I have to tell you my life had a ton a shit going on and my shot cycling and consistence was a mess. Is this a permanent problem or is it fix able.
The doctor (urologist) spoke about HCG therapy for 3 months. I never heard of SERM. please explain. I Love this site you goes know more than the Docs,,, unless your Docs.... Thank you all for your help. I want to get right ASAP!!!
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Trust me Fellas,
This is a very frustrating issue. Truly a very bad dream!!
I'm 44 yrs. old 5'11", 200 lbs.
I did 2 cycles back in the 80's and didn't touch the sauce for 18 yrs. I started using again 5 yrs. ago.
I pretty much did what I wanted and really didn't have a coach to direct me. So, this is what happens when one thinks he's ot it all figured out.
This past cycle was like 8 months long, before that I'd taken about 4 months off from another long cycle. My body has degenerated everything I've done and I look fuckin terrible and feel even worse.
Last cycle:
started in Feb 08, Trend 75 mg. eod 1+16 weeks
Test 250 mg. twice a week 1+16 wks
I took arimedic & HCG post cycle for 3 weeks
Second cycle:
Mestronon 750 mg. once a wk. 1+8 weeks
Wintrol 50 mg. eod 4+8 weeks
Arimedic and HCG for 3 weeks at the end
I have to tell you my life had a ton a shit going on and my shot cycling and consistence was a mess. Is this a permanent problem or is it fix able.
The doctor (urologist) spoke about HCG therapy for 3 months. I never heard of SERM. please explain. I Love this site you goes know more than the Docs,,, unless your Docs.... Thank you all for your help. I want to get right ASAP!!!
why the fuck did you stay on 8 months? Comp plans?
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I wanted to compete, then everything got fucked up, work, issues with home life etc.
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why the fuck did you stay on 8 months? Comp plans?
no doubt he was chasing the dream hahaha seriously, 8 months cycle ...is either this guy is crazy or he's a top 10 mr o!
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Your situation sucks...I've been right where you are.
The only thing that will truly help is time. This is assuming you're not going to use any more.
If you are going to use in the near future, my advice is simply run an HRT dose of test until you begin using more seriously again.
no doubt he was chasing the dream hahaha seriously, 8 months cycle ...is either this guy is crazy or he's a top 10 mr o!
8 months is not that big of a deal.
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Arnold,
Should I be doing HCG and clomid??????? How much time? and yes I was hoping to compete this summer if possible.....
Is this a permanent problem, I have an amazing 25 yr old fiancee.... I need my sex drive back..
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Arnold,
Should I be doing HCG and clomid??????? How much time? and yes I was hoping to compete this summer if possible.....
Is this a permanent problem, I have an amazing 25 yr old fiancee.... I need my sex drive back..
i have my doubts about the seriousness of your posts here BUT i will give you the benefit of doubt.
Do you have pictures of your supposed 25 year old fiancee? if so post them
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i have my doubts about the seriousness of your posts here BUT i will give you the benefit of doubt.
Do you have pictures of your supposed 25 year old fiancee? if so post them
LOL I guess you should start using alot more test. dude your 44 you may never get your sex drive back
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Mr. Benz,
I'm not here to impress you nor prove myself to you. I have a problem and some of the best and most knowlegable BB are here to help people like myself that made a mistake.
If I posted a pic your next comment would be I stole it. Trust me I know whats laying in my bed as I type this watching TV.
Merry Christmas,, Train Hard!!
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Dawg,
That's a very serious issue I'm facing at the moment and it sucks!!! If I have to I will, Trust me. I'm hoping to get the issue repaired for a more positive outlook!!
Peace
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Mr. Benz,
I'm not here to impress you nor prove myself to you. I have a problem and some of the best and most knowlegable BB are here to help people like myself that made a mistake.
If I posted a pic your next comment would be I stole it. Trust me I know whats laying in my bed as I type this watching TV.
Merry Christmas,, Train Hard!!
dear brother of the iron, caesar of steel plates, zar of squats, king of needles and eca, he-man of the gym, pumping iron brother: You need to post a picture of your hoe, thats the way we do it here, we share hoes pics, we love them. If you dont share, you aint no real bodybuilder brother
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LOL oh man
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Bro,
Your a Hard ride my friend.........Dude I'm trying to get my nutz back in order!!!! your killin me, if anything thanks for the laugh!!!
Never use the word Hoe...... very bad word!!!! my lady is amazing.. Figure Contestant no Hoe!!!
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Bro,
Your a Hard ride my friend.........Dude I'm trying to get my nutz back in order!!!! your killin me, if anything thanks for the laugh!!!
Never use the word Hoe...... very bad word!!!! my lady is amazing.. Figure Contestant no Hoe!!!
I am benz, former president of the new orleans amateur black bodybuilding association, king of blues, looter by nature and over all things: brother of the iron community, the same you seem to belong.
Share contest pictures, are there some at musculardevelopment.com? What are you hiding? You want help but you dont wanna show us your fine ass ho?
No serious bodybuilding attitude
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If i was you (and thank god i'm not;D) this is what i would do/take.
Nolvadex (Tamoxifen citrate).
40 mg per day for two weeks.
20 mg per day for another two weeks.
I would also take high dose of good quality tribulus terrestris 4000 mg per day
and on top of a good multivitamin and fish oil i would take higher dose of C and E-vitamins three times a day and also eat plenty of good quality red meat.
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Hi,
I would take tamoxifen and some tribulus and WAIT only the time can help.
How do u feel ? are u tired all the time ?
Good luck
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BTW did u check ur HDL and LDL ?
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Thank you guys,
Yes I had my liver and Kidney function checked was good,, and LDL HDL.
LDL was high
HDL was low
over all 207
Test level was 34
No clomid or HCG?
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Arnold,
Should I be doing HCG and clomid??????? How much time? and yes I was hoping to compete this summer if possible.....
Is this a permanent problem, I have an amazing 25 yr old fiancee.... I need my sex drive back..
I already told you what to run up top. Read up on aromasin (Ive posted studies on the board) and what it can do for you as far as restoring natural test. HCG will only be more suppressive at this point. Either clomid/nolvadex or both, and 25mg aromasin ed.
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Nolvadex is better than Clomid in every way, i wouln't take hcg at all in your case/situation, it might help, but i think that Nolvadex will get you back in business again. If you bother to follow what i suggested you will get good results.
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I already told you what to run up top. Read up on aromasin (Ive posted studies on the board) and what it can do for you as far as restoring natural test. HCG will only be more suppressive at this point. Either clomid/nolvadex or both, and 25mg aromasin ed.
I've never used Aromasin I will call my guy and get Nolv. and Aromasin I have clomid in the house. How much time am I looking at before I will be ok? and also be able to go back on? I was hoping to start in Feb. if thats possible.
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It all depends on your body brotha. Running a new PCT will def help get your body on track, but time off the sauce is what your body really needs. Have you ever thought of just getting on and staying on TRT? Myself and lots of other guys on the board are on TRT and its a good healthy thing.
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What is TRT?
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Testosterone Replacement Therapy
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get some test and be done with it. theres 2 solutions do it or dont do it but dont complain,just do it you be happy just remember those days ;D
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I'm betting he's shut himself down permenantly and is looking at a lifetime of HRT if he wants to be "normal".
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I'm betting he's shut himself down permenantly and is looking at a lifetime of HRT if he wants to be "normal".
Exactly why HCG should be run during the cycle, instead of just during PCT. Prevention is what its all about.
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you guys are brutal, give him some hope :-[
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Arnold,
Should I be doing HCG and clomid??????? How much time? and yes I was hoping to compete this summer if possible.....
Is this a permanent problem, I have an amazing 25 yr old fiancee.... I need my sex drive back..
It depends.
If you're off everything now and you're going to get back on in the near future, in your case you simply need to stay on a low dose of test...200-250mg/wk.
If you're off and going to stay off for a long time, then yes you might need to run a long strong PCT. But after that, in the end many times that's not enough. If this is the case time is what will heal it if anything. However, and I don't say this to put you down and out, at your age you may be looking at HRT for the rest of your life...depends on the damage.
My advice, I'd go with the HRT now, then run your cycle for your contest, after that fun a very strong PCT. Once that's said and done, stay off everything for at least 6-8 months...it could even take a full year to get back to normal.
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It depends.
If you're off everything now and you're going to get back on in the near future, in your case you simply need to stay on a low dose of test...200-250mg/wk.
If you're off and going to stay off for a long time, then yes you might need to run a long strong PCT. But after that, in the end many times that's not enough. If this is the case time is what will heal it if anything. However, and I don't say this to put you down and out, at your age you may be looking at HRT for the rest of your life...depends on the damage.
My advice, I'd go with the HRT now, then run your cycle for your contest, after that fun a very strong PCT. Once that's said and done, stay off everything for at least 6-8 months...it could even take a full year to get back to normal.
I agree with this. Keep in mind that running TRT is not a bad thing. Its legal gear, and keeps you feeling healthy and young.
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I already told you what to run up top. Read up on aromasin (Ive posted studies on the board) and what it can do for you as far as restoring natural test. HCG will only be more suppressive at this point. Either clomid/nolvadex or both, and 25mg aromasin ed.
HRT or what you suggested first 4thAD? I liked this alot but if the HRT is a better way, I'm down...... I'd really like to get my shit straight before hitting the sauce again........
I may have fucked myself permanmently, if you want to play in the big leagues better be able to hang tough. That's why I've been a member here for awhile. Most guys here play hard ball. My hats off to all of you.....
Peace and Thank you all very much
Mr. Bo Jangles.......:)
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you guys are brutal, give him some hope :-[
I'm not trying to be mean. This is the reality of it.
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I'm not trying to be mean. This is the reality of it.
Vet, how common do you think this is? If it's a lack of LH then HCG during cycle won't address the issue, correct?
Would there be any benefit to running some Clomid during cycle to stimulate LH and keep things working?
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Vet, how common do you think this is? If it's a lack of LH then HCG during cycle won't address the issue, correct?
Would there be any benefit to running some Clomid during cycle to stimulate LH and keep things working?
your better off running aromasin during cycle
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Trust me Fellas,
This is a very frustrating issue. Truly a very bad dream!!
Last cycle:
started in Feb 08, Trend 75 mg. eod 1+16 weeks
Test 250 mg. twice a week 1+16 wks
I took arimedic & HCG post cycle for 3 weeks
Second cycle:
Mestronon 750 mg. once a wk. 1+8 weeks
Wintrol 50 mg. eod 4+8 weeks
Arimedic and HCG for 3 weeks at the end
my knowledge is obviously limited here, but tell me guys, is the second cycle a normal stack? i dunno, but this second cycle combo looks really weird to me...
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my knowledge is obviously limited here, but tell me guys, is the second cycle a normal stack? i dunno, but this second cycle combo looks really weird to me...
simple answer "NO"
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Vet, how common do you think this is? If it's a lack of LH then HCG during cycle won't address the issue, correct?
Would there be any benefit to running some Clomid during cycle to stimulate LH and keep things working?
I think you have to look at things two fold. First off, hypogonadism is becoming more and more common in men over the age of 30. There are so many problems--like Type II diabetes as an example that are directly linked to hypogonadism. Personally, I think every guy needs to get their testosterone levels checked if they are 35 or older. Age is a huge factor.
Second, from conversations I've had with my endocrinologist the HPTA in humans actually seems pretty fragile. Permenant shutdown is recognized in the veterinary world---for example in implanted cattle, but those animals almost always end up as food, so its not a problem.
Some guys can recover from shutdown from a cycle without a problem, but others, 8 weeks is enough to permenantly shut down. Its not understood why this happens, it just does. Its also hard to get a true statistical analyiss of cases though because many people who do one cycle with legitimate drugs are likely not have their hormone levels evaluated pre or post cycle and they are considered likely to do another cycle. What really happens in thier body probably does unrecognized and unreported.
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scary shit
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I think you have to look at things two fold. First off, hypogonadism is becoming more and more common in men over the age of 30. There are so many problems--like Type II diabetes as an example that are directly linked to hypogonadism. Personally, I think every guy needs to get their testosterone levels checked if they are 35 or older. Age is a huge factor.
Second, from conversations I've had with my endocrinologist the HPTA in humans actually seems pretty fragile. Permenant shutdown is recognized in the veterinary world---for example in implanted cattle, but those animals almost always end up as food, so its not a problem.
Some guys can recover from shutdown from a cycle without a problem, but others, 8 weeks is enough to permenantly shut down. Its not understood why this happens, it just does. Its also hard to get a true statistical analyiss of cases though because many people who do one cycle with legitimate drugs are likely not have their hormone levels evaluated pre or post cycle and they are considered likely to do another cycle. What really happens in thier body probably does unrecognized and unreported.
do you think that each cycle you do will damage your hpta function even more? even if you do proper pct and cycle once or twice a year
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I think you have to look at things two fold. First off, hypogonadism is becoming more and more common in men over the age of 30. There are so many problems--like Type II diabetes as an example that are directly linked to hypogonadism. Personally, I think every guy needs to get their testosterone levels checked if they are 35 or older. Age is a huge factor.
Second, from conversations I've had with my endocrinologist the HPTA in humans actually seems pretty fragile. Permenant shutdown is recognized in the veterinary world---for example in implanted cattle, but those animals almost always end up as food, so its not a problem.
Some guys can recover from shutdown from a cycle without a problem, but others, 8 weeks is enough to permenantly shut down. Its not understood why this happens, it just does. Its also hard to get a true statistical analyiss of cases though because many people who do one cycle with legitimate drugs are likely not have their hormone levels evaluated pre or post cycle and they are considered likely to do another cycle. What really happens in thier body probably does unrecognized and unreported.
Hard to say if this is the case. Chemical castration is real though i guess. Logic would say once the drugs leave and some time passes the body will begin to function normally again. The receptors that sense hormonal stimulis will begin to pick up on the 0 test situation and start sending orders to the testes for more test production.
But its like waking a machine thats been idle for a long time, it may sputter and stumble for a while while warming up again to operating temps. Make sure you dont flood it or it wont start.
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i dont know if ive read this wrong,,, but your 5'11" at 200lbs...... and thats not ripped,,, if i were u id ditch your contest plans and try and get healthy, your more than likely goin to fuck your self up for a low placing, its realy not worth it
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do you think that each cycle you do will damage your hpta function even more? even if you do proper pct and cycle once or twice a year
I think theres too much variation from person to person for it to be that easy of an answer. Some people will restart wtihout a problem. Others may never restart. Some won't restart, but they'll coast at a level that is subphysiogical, but is high enough that they can get by, and not know they've got a problem until they can't get their woman pregnant or they finally sputter out and crash and burn 10 years down the road. That or they just go back on a cycle and don't find out because they mask it.
When I was discussing this with my doctor, he cited a couple of cases of his own patients who were in their early 30's who'd never done any anabolic steroids, but who had all been athletes in college and who had all taken large doses of prohormones (within the label constraints)---substances that have since been removed from the market by the FDA. Every one of those males had virtually no LH, no testosterone and wouldn't respond to what was tried for "restarting" the system.
That to me is absolutey scary as shit.
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HRT or what you suggested first 4thAD? I liked this alot but if the HRT is a better way, I'm down...... I'd really like to get my shit straight before hitting the sauce again........
I may have fucked myself permanmently, if you want to play in the big leagues better be able to hang tough. That's why I've been a member here for awhile. Most guys here play hard ball. My hats off to all of you.....
Peace and Thank you all very much
Mr. Bo Jangles.......:)
I suggest TRT bro. You will more than likely feel great, and no Dr. in his right mind will turn you down with levels that low. Try your personal physician first, and then an endo doc. If that does not work PM me. The reason I say try your own docs first is try to get your insurance to pay for the test. You should be able to get injectable test no problem.
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do you think that each cycle you do will damage your hpta function even more? even if you do proper pct and cycle once or twice a year
I personally think it will, but I'm not a doctor or expert. I can only speak from personal experience.
IMO you should use HCG during cycle AND do proper PCT. If you don't use HCG during cycle you WILL kill some Lydig cells, it's just a quesiton of how many you kill each cycle...and that depends on your body.
In the '90s I did at least two 12 week cycles per year. They were always very light, usually Test only at less than 500 mg per week. Sometimes they were dbol only or Deca only.
I'm a hyper responder, so that's all the Test I need to put on 15 lbs of muscle, but even 200 mg of Test EW shuts me down very hard and quick.
Unfortunatley, I never did PCT because I didn't know any better. Regardless, my nuts always came back within a month or so.
When my wife and I were trying to get pregnant about five years ago, we had fertilty tests done. Luckily, I didn't have any issues and in fact my sperm count was very high. We now have three kids. That's the good news.
But, then about two years ago I went into a pretty bad depression. I made my doctor test my hormone levels. My Test level was in the low 200's. I have no doubt it's due to steroids and a lack of proper PCT.
I'm now on HRT and feel better than ever. I just feel very very lucky to have kids.
In retrospect, my nuts never came back 100%. I didn't notice because it happened gradually - a little more with each cycle as I killed Lydig cells. They are now probably 80% of their original size. I'm the only one who would notice, but I'm sure a lack of proper PCT played a large role.
With PCT you will probably be OK, but why chance it? Use some HCG during cycle as well. I wish I had. What if you can't have kids?
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I personally think it will, but I'm not a doctor or expert. I can only speak from personal experience.
IMO you should use HCG during cycle AND do proper PCT. If you don't use HCG during cycle you WILL kill some Lydig cells, it's just a quesiton of how many you kill each cycle...and that depends on your body.
In the '90s I did at least two 12 week cycles per year. They were always very light, usually Test only at less than 500 mg per week. Sometimes they were dbol only or Deca only.
I'm a hyper responder, so that's all the Test I need to put on 15 lbs of muscle, but even 200 mg of Test EW shuts me down very hard and quick.
Unfortunatley, I never did PCT because I didn't know any better. Regardless, my nuts always came back within a month or so.
When my wife and I were trying to get pregnant about five years ago, we had fertilty tests done. Luckily, I didn't have any issues and in fact my sperm count was very high. We now have three kids. That's the good news.
But, then about two years ago I went into a pretty bad depression. I made my doctor test my hormone levels. My Test level was in the low 200's. I have no doubt it's due to steroids and a lack of proper PCT.
I'm now on HRT and feel better than ever. I just feel very very lucky to have kids.
In retrospect, my nuts never came back 100%. I didn't notice because it happened gradually - a little more with each cycle as I killed Lydig cells. They are now probably 80% of their original size. I'm the only one who would notice, but I'm sure a lack of proper PCT played a large role.
With PCT you will probably be OK, but why chance it? Use some HCG during cycle as well. I wish I had. What if you can't have kids?
Yup, like I said, you come back enough to get by, but then crash and burn years down the road. Its not good.
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Yup, like I said, you come back enough to get by, but then crash and burn years down the road. Its not good.
vet do u think most people loses there natural test production after taking steroids for years? i kno a couple guys who are maintaining pretty good natural test levels and there in their 30's..
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vet do u think most people loses there natural test production after taking steroids for years? i kno a couple guys who are maintaining pretty good natural test levels and there in their 30's..
Like I said before, I think its highly variable.
I spent some time in college doing reasearch on environmental estrogens---particularly bisphenol and pesticides. The frequence of those hormone mimickers exposure to people now days makes me think that ALL men age 35 or over should have their hormone levels tested. I think they should do it every 3-5 years after the age of 35 too. Just because someone is fine at the age of 31 doesn't mean they'll be fine at the age of 36.
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Truu good post