Getbig Bodybuilding, Figure and Fitness Forums
Getbig Bodybuilding Boards => Nutrition, Products & Supplements Info => Topic started by: andreisdaman on December 29, 2008, 12:11:28 PM
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We spend a lot of time on here talking about and debating the effectiveness of supplements....I am guilty of this as well....but the truth is that these supplements are all worthless in the long run and are created to empty our wallets of as much hard-earned cash as possible...
the advertising that goes into convincing us to buy these worthless and useless supplements is incredible.....even the drug companies don't spend on ads like muscletech....but thats because of the theory that the bigger the lie, the more people will believe it since no one would DARE tell such a big lie and risk being found out???
Supplements work only because we "will" them to work....the supplement companies tell us "take this everyday before your work out and your workout will be fantastic and you will get big pumps and better gains"....then they tell us "take this also after your workout and you will get bigger and stronger"...
basically what they are doing is getting you and I to perform a ritual....by performing a ritual before completing an act or action, it increases the likelihood that you will actually carry through and perform the action...
for example, suicide bombers carry out rituals before their missions..they recite the Koran and shave their bodies and make a video tape to their love-ones to let them know what they are about to do and how they are entering the kingdom of god and all this other crap....the planners make them perform these rituals because once someone has performed the ritual they brainwash themselves into performing the act and the planners know that in this way, the bombers will ACTUALLY go ahead with the bombing instead of chickening out at the last minute.
Same thing with the supp companies...we perform the ritual of taking these products before and after the workout because in our minds we think they will help us (the advertising has already warmed us up and put us in this frame of mind) ..then we go to the gym and push ourselves really hard because we want the supplement to work....In other words...we ourselves take these supps because by taking the supp it increases the likelihood that you will go ahead and work out instead of blowing off the gym for that day....and it increases the likelihood that you will focus and push yourself really hard in the gym because PSYCHOLOGICALLY YOU WANT THE SUPPLEMENTS TO WORK SO THAT YOU DON"T LOOK LIKE AN A-HOLE FOR BEING STUPID ENOUGH TO BUY SUCH A BOGUS RIP-OFF IN THE FIRST PLACE!
so because you have invested so much time and money in getting the supps, you have to hypnotize yourself into making them work....by working out more and working out harder.....and thats where the gains come in..if you are working out more and not blowing off the gym as much and you are working out much harder instead of coasting as we tend to do sometimes, then of course you will be HARDER< THICKER< STRONGER<BIGGER....theres no secret to it...I have made better gains and gotten stronger ONCE I STOPPED TAKING CREATINE...
so instead of using the supplements to make us have a better workout and better gains, we use the work out, and the better gains which come from them, to make us have a better supplement....Just eat, drink water and workout consistently and effectively and you will get stronger, thicker, and bigger...we spend time talking about supps because it is fun....but thats all we are really getting out of it..
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We spend a lot of time on here talking about and debating the effectiveness of supplements....I am guilty of this as well....but the truth is that these supplements are all worthless in the long run and are created to empty our wallets of as much hard-earned cash as possible...
the advertising that goes into convincing us to buy these worthless and useless supplements is incredible.....even the drug companies don't spend on ads like muscletech....but thats because of the theory that the bigger the lie, the more people will believe it since no one would DARE tell such a big lie and risk being found out???
Supplements work only because we "will" them to work....the supplement companies tell us "take this everyday before your work out and your workout will be fantastic and you will get big pumps and better gains"....then they tell us "take this also after your workout and you will get bigger and stronger"...
basically what they are doing is getting you and I to perform a ritual....by performing a ritual before completing an act or action, it increases the likelihood that you will actually carry through and perform the action...
for example, suicide bombers carry out rituals before their missions..they recite the Koran and shave their bodies and make a video tape to their love-ones to let them know what they are about to do and how they are entering the kingdom of god and all this other crap....the planners make them perform these rituals because once someone has performed the ritual they brainwash themselves into performing the act and the planners know that in this way, the bombers will ACTUALLY go ahead with the bombing instead of chickening out at the last minute.
Same thing with the supp companies...we perform the ritual of taking these products before and after the workout because in our minds we think they will help us (the advertising has already warmed us up and put us in this frame of mind) ..then we go to the gym and push ourselves really hard because we want the supplement to work....In other words...we ourselves take these supps because by taking the supp it increases the likelihood that you will go ahead and work out instead of blowing off the gym for that day....and it increases the likelihood that you will focus and push yourself really hard in the gym because PSYCHOLOGICALLY YOU WANT THE SUPPLEMENTS TO WORK SO THAT YOU DON"T LOOK LIKE AN A-HOLE FOR BEING STUPID ENOUGH TO BUY SUCH A BOGUS RIP-OFF IN THE FIRST PLACE!
so because you have invested so much time and money in getting the supps, you have to hypnotize yourself into making them work....by working out more and working out harder.....and thats where the gains come in..if you are working out more and not blowing off the gym as much and you are working out much harder instead of coasting as we tend to do sometimes, then of course you will be HARDER< THICKER< STRONGER<BIGGER....theres no secret to it...I have made better gains and gotten stronger ONCE I STOPPED TAKING CREATINE...
so instead of using the supplements to make us have a better workout and better gains, we use the work out, and the better gains which come from them, to make us have a better supplement....Just eat, drink water and workout consistently and effectively and you will get stronger, thicker, and bigger...we spend time talking about supps because it is fun....but thats all we are really getting out of it..
I get the gist of your post, but many supplements do provide benefits to a bodybuilder. To deny that whey/egg/casein protein doesn't fill a void is absurd. Yes, a chicken breast is great, but a shot of whey can provide the same nutrients (yes, it's absorbed faster) but you know what i'm saying. There are, i agree, many supplements that don't work and are bs. Maybe 90% of supps are bs. BUT, there are legit ones out there.
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supplements are great.
support the sport, buy supplements.
Bluto you are saying that we should just blindly support the sport by buying stuff that has no value whatsoever?...we support the sport by buying gym memberships, by exercising so that we can look good and by buying the BB mags...there is no need to buy junk to fill the pockets of guys who are trying their best to rip us off....the sport was doing well even when the only thing being advertised was Bob Atlas' workout program which depicted a skinny guy having sand kicked in his face...there was no supplement ads then except that ad and weider's disgusting protein powder junk that was god-awful....and bodybuilding survived
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I get the gist of your post, but many supplements do provide benefits to a bodybuilder. To deny that whey/egg/casein protein doesn't fill a void is absurd. Yes, a chicken breast is great, but a shot of whey can provide the same nutrients (yes, it's absorbed faster) but you know what i'm saying. There are, i agree, many supplements that don't work and are bs. Maybe 90% of supps are bs. BUT, there are legit ones out there.
Okay, I'm willing to bend a little and say that protein powders have a place in terms of supplementation....howev er, again you don't REALLY need them..just eat hardy meals and you will be fine....if you drink enough milk and eat enough steak and chicken you will be fine.....and again, the supplement companies would have you believe that their protein powder is better...all protein basically comes from the same place.....it's not like the companies are whipping up their own protein formulas....Protein comes from milk or eggs..that's it..they are all the same....and most of it ends up in the shitter anyway......because our bodies will only absorb so much protein...a complete waste of money!!!!!
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i dont see the harm in spending money on preworkout supps like no-xplode, the only reason you take supps like that is to get a good workout, placebo or not if it gets the job done then i dont see the harm.
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Brent, it gets the job done but for the wrong reasons.....you could get the same workout for free if you just came to the realization that you are wasting money for performing a ritual that you could do on your own for free.....you want a nice preworkout supplement???...drink a nice cup of coffee with milk and sugar.....caffeine to get your heart going....sugar for energy....and some small protein from the milk.....and if you want, add a tall glass of water with another teaspoon of sugar (or dextrose if you prefer) and a banana....thats all you need and this will give you such a boost..you won't need NO Explode... at $40 a can no less. ;D
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Have you studied the research on visualization + sports that the old Soviets did? What about the newer research from teh west?
I've studied some research on things like people practicing sports versus imagining practicing to find that imagining can be even more powerful than actually physically practicing in some cases. Also, in the brain the neurons fire as if you're actually doing the activity in the same exact way as if you were actually doing it. Much of what we imagine is almost "literal" to the brain and has similar affect as if it actually happened. Have you come across anything particularly interesting?
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I've studied some research on things like people practicing sports versus imagining practicing to find that imagining can be even more powerful than actually physically practicing in some cases. Also, in the brain the neurons fire as if you're actually doing the activity in the same exact way as if you were actually doing it. Much of what we imagine is almost "literal" to the brain and has similar affect as if it actually happened. Have you come across anything particularly interesting?
What you just wrote practically summons up the main points of what Debussey has come across.
Debusseys experience = that visualization must be practiced daily in a systematized manner if it is to really aid focused long term goal achievement (and when done in this way, it can be extremely effective).
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What you just wrote practically summons up the main points of what Debussey has come across.
Debusseys experience = that visualization must be practiced daily in a systematized manner if it is to really aid focused long term goal achievement (and when done in this way, it can be extremely effective).
Certainly. I think people are completely confused about what's important in life.
We are not paying attention to ourselves but rather everything else...
That "mental movie screen" we constantly run through the imagination is more important than anything. ;)
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Brent, it gets the job done but for the wrong reasons.....you could get the same workout for free if you just came to the realization that you are wasting money for performing a ritual that you could do on your own for free.....you want a nice preworkout supplement???...drink a nice cup of coffee with milk and sugar.....caffeine to get your heart going....sugar for energy....and some small protein from the milk.....and if you want, add a tall glass of water with another teaspoon of sugar (or dextrose if you prefer) and a banana....thats all you need and this will give you such a boost..you won't need NO Explode... at $40 a can no less. ;D
your probably right but at 28$ per 40 servings, about 70 cents a workout i think i can afford the extra. I do agree as bodybuilders or whatever we are, we do get into rituals and they have a tremendous psychological difference.
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plenty of supplements will have good effects on your physique that you CAN NOT get from whole food.
whey concentrate/isolate/hydrosylate
bcaa's
l-leucine
caffiene
yohimbine
green tea extract
etc etc etc etc
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Pure brilliance, Debussey. What types of memorization techniques have you used?
And yes, drinking piss is an extremely important part of both mental and physical progression. Without it, you are literally starving yourself of what you need to thrive. With it, you will thrive in every respect, adapt more quickly, promote mental and physical upgrade, etc....
Debussey has developed its own memorization and knowledge-integration system. Debussey's visual and episodic memory = a lot stronger than its auditory memorization ability, so Debussey has built a system around representing knowledge in visual and episodic terms that suits Debusseys memory best (this means not using the "association techniques" taught in normal mnemonic books as they are usually used).
Debussey first systematizes the knowledge to be memorized or really integrated (if applied to problem-situations, where the theoretical framework is to be applied to a task, the information must be overlearned so you don't have to consciously think to use it) in a very strict manner after one of several predefined "representation templates". Debussey then usually finds some visual representation of each defined "block" of knowledge, and this can for example be an abstract shape with a specific color (Debussey often uses color-coding in abstract structures to represent specific concepts or "configurations) that also does a repetitive movement (Debussey has a slight case of motion-synesthesia which makes visual figures with movement easy to remember due to the sound they produce), and perhaps a melody or specific sound (Debussey has a knack for remembering melodies).
After representing the information in a systematic sense via the visual and the auditory faculties as described above, Debussey has several "visual representation blocks" that are now visualized together several times in one or several ways. For example, Debussey can visualize a landscape where many different images/sounds as described above are organized together in some way. After a couple of visualizations, these "visualized landscapes" or similar visualizations (like "movies" in the mind with the image-representations as "actors") are basically remembered for years without much repetitions. Debussey has found that the more episodic, melody and motion stuff it incorporates, the longer and stronger the visualization sticks, due to the attributes of Debusseys brain already described.
Next is ensuring that the visualization will become integrated knowledge. Debussey will retell information contained in the images until an image naturally leads to a certain piece of information. This = a pretty easy job once a systematized method has been used for a long time. For example, the key of A (440) is easily heard as such on the piano, and the color blue immediately pops up (Debusseys color for A). For other concepts it can be an abstract image or an image of a person or something that just pops up once the information contained in it = thought of. It works the other way as well, the visual representation = seen, and the concept = recalled. (Which makes seeing the color blue fucking tiresome at times).
Once a proper association between the visual stimuli and the information it represents = there, Debussey usually does some integration work, like solving problems or doing exercises. Debussey focuses on using "pencil and paper" as little as possible, and instead doing the entire thing in the head. Usually, by this point, solving problems = pretty easy, since most people need exercises to INTEGRATE the principles that are not properly integrated into memory BEFORE starting on the exercise, thereby making the early exercise solving simply a memorization tool.
If doing things like playing a guitar, Debussey usually plays something while seeing an image or another representation of it. If practicing an inversion of an arpeggio on a guitar with a metronome, Debussey sees the appropriate representation of it in the mind, thereby strengthening the association between the represented theory and the motor-skill of playing.
This is just a basic overview of Debusseys way of doing it. The system = pretty detailed for different types of information and shit, and there = no point in regurgitating all of it here. It probably = useless for many other people, since it's tailored for Debusseys quirks and piss.
A small note about this way of doing it is that the recall of information seems to go incredibly fast, and the ability to scan information and get an overview of it (seeing huge detailed landscapes or abstract "worlds" or just a bunch of colors = pretty easy) = very easy. It sure beats pure root memorization, which = much slower, and without the same "staying power". At least for the retarded 52IQ brain of Debussey.
In simple terms: This way of doing it improves the possible quantity of memorization, and the quality of the memorization and subsequent remembering.
:D
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%50 Placebo %50 Real Effect for the best supplements IMO.
most others %90 percent placebo effect IMO.
ANDREISDAMAN
I agree with you andreisdaman but there is still a slight effect to most of them but the net gain you notice cannot be attibuted to much more than placebo. Spend you $ how you wa't if you have it.
What about ZMA. Im interested to see what soundness and debussy have to say about ZMA. I have had some huge effects from it. Mostly incredible sleep and incredibly vivid dreams (can be very good or very bad lol) and when I wake up I feel like 100 bucks even if I didn't sleep more than 3-4 hrs it will feel like i was asleep for 8.
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Best supplement = food !
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i dont see the harm in spending money on preworkout supps like no-xplode, the only reason you take supps like that is to get a good workout, placebo or not if it gets the job done then i dont see the harm.
Agreed, not all sups are rip offs.
Pre work out boosters and post work out shakes work.
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%50 Placebo %50 Real Effect for the best supplements IMO.
most others %90 percent placebo effect IMO.
ANDREISDAMAN
I agree with you andreisdaman but there is still a slight effect to most of them but the net gain you notice cannot be attibuted to much more than placebo. Spend you $ how you wa't if you have it.
What about ZMA. Im interested to see what soundness and debussy have to say about ZMA. I have had some huge effects from it. Mostly incredible sleep and incredibly vivid dreams (can be very good or very bad lol) and when I wake up I feel like 100 bucks even if I didn't sleep more than 3-4 hrs it will feel like i was asleep for 8.
Effects of Zinc Magnesium Aspartate (ZMA) Supplementation on Training Adaptations and Markers of Anabolism and Catabolism.
http://pharmiamuscle.com/pdf/effects_zinc.pdf
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18500945?ordinalpos=3&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
"ABSTRACT : This study examined whether supplementing the diet with a commercial supplement containing zinc magnesium aspartate (ZMA) during training affects zinc and magnesium status, anabolic and catabolic hormone profiles, and/or training adaptations. Forty-two resistance trained males (27 +/- 9 yrs; 178 +/- 8 cm, 85 +/- 15 kg, 18.6 +/- 6% body fat) were matched according to fat free mass and randomly assigned to ingest in a double blind manner either a dextrose placebo (P) or ZMA 30-60 minutes prior to going to sleep during 8-weeks of standardized resistance-training. Subjects completed testing sessions at 0, 4, and 8 weeks that included body composition assessment as determined by dual energy X-ray absorptiometry, 1-RM and muscular endurance tests on the bench and leg press, a Wingate anaerobic power test, and blood analysis to assess anabolic/catabolic status as well as markers of health. Data were analyzed using repeated measures ANOVA. Results indicated that ZMA supplementation non-significantly increased serum zinc levels by 11 - 17% (p = 0.12). However, no significant differences were observed between groups in anabolic or catabolic hormone status, body composition, 1-RM bench press and leg press, upper or lower body muscular endurance, or cycling anaerobic capacity. Results indicate that ZMA supplementation during training does not appear to enhance training adaptations in resistance trained populations."
Serum testosterone and urinary excretion of steroid hormone metabolites after administration of a high-dose zinc supplement.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17882141?ordinalpos=5&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
Objectives:To investigate whether the administration of the zinc-containing nutritional supplement ZMA causes an increase of serum testosterone levels, which is an often claimed effect in advertising for such products; to monitor the urinary excretion of testosterone and selected steroid hormone metabolites to detect potential changes in the excretion patterns of ZMA users.Subjects:Fourteen healthy, regularly exercising men aged 22-33 years with a baseline zinc intake between 11.9 and 23.2 mg day(-1) prior to the study.Results:Supplementation of ZMA significantly increased serum zinc (P=0.031) and urinary zinc excretion (P=0.035). Urinary pH (P=0.011) and urine flow (P=0.045) were also elevated in the subjects using ZMA. No significant changes in serum total and serum free testosterone were observed in response to ZMA use. Also, the urinary excretion pattern of testosterone metabolites was not significantly altered in ZMA users.Conclusions:The present data suggest that the use of ZMA has no significant effects regarding serum testosterone levels and the metabolism of testosterone in subjects who consume a zinc-sufficient diet.
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Now, Arnold Palmer, I'm not saying ZMA is bullshit. I'm glad you find it helpful, and the claims by Lorrie Brilla are encouraging. (Though the funding of the research raises skepticism.):
Brilla, L.R., and Haley, T.F., "Effect of Magnesium Supplementation on Strength Training in Humans," J Am Coll Nutr 11.3 (1992) : 326-9.
Brilla, L.R., and Conte, V., "Effects of Zinc-Magnesium (ZMA) Supplementation on Muscle Attributes of Football Players," Med Sci Sports Exer 31.5 (1999).
http://faculty.css.edu/tboone2/asep/BrillaV2.PDF
In the study above, Brilla reported that ZMA supplementation in Western Washington University football players resulted in a 30% increase in testosterone, an increase in IGF-1, and a 250% increase in strength gains compared to the group that took a placebo. There are also no major side effects reported from ZMA use. Miraculous, indeed.
Here's the problem: ARE THERE OTHER STUDIES, BESIDES BRILLA'S THAT CLAIM THIS? I couldn't find any, but please forward them to me if you do. The first studies I posted in this reply do not confirm this, which raises skepticism. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt, here, I just want you to show me some research besides Brilla's that confirms Brilla's claims.
Here are a few that favor zinc, but I'm wondering about ZMA supplementation in particular.:
Cordova, A., and Alvarez-Mon. M., "Behaviour of Zinc in Physical Exercise: A Special Reference to Immunity and Fatigue," Neurosci Biobehav Rev 19.3 (1995) : 439-45.
Haralambie, G., "Serum Zinc in Athletes in Training," Int J Sports Med 2.3 (1981) : 135-8.
Singh, A., et al., "Magnesium, Zinc, and Copper Status of US Navy SEAL Trainees," Am J Clin Nutr 49.4 (1989) : 695-700.
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Get critical; don't be a product of media hype. If you can show that ZMA does what Brilla claims it does with research that is not Brilla's, I'll purchase some ZMA and take it. I certainly would want to if the findings are legit. The problem is, as I said, Brilla's studies are the one and only studies cited by companies attempting to sell this supplement and there is research to suggest the findings on that study are not valid. Please prove this wrong. ZMA is a godsend for the natural bodybuilder if those claims are true...
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I agree with you soundness. I think ZMA is awesome though. Victor Conte' and a few others created it but tryed to market it as something it is not. ZMA is not a test booster. ZMA is great for sleep though and also a great way to get some zinc and magnesium in your diet which is hard to do and very beneficial.
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I agree with you soundness. I think ZMA is awesome though. Victor Conte' and a few others created it but tryed to market it as something it is not. ZMA is not a test booster. ZMA is great for sleep though and also a great way to get some zinc and magnesium in your diet which is hard to do and very beneficial.
Well, we could all use better sleep. I may go out and buy some then give it a shot. Thanks for your responses. ;)
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You should, you have nothing to lose. Let me know how it goes for you ZMA is one of the most interesting supplements to me. It's sleep effects are something I don't understand but have experienced first hand and just can't get enough of it.
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You should, you have nothing to lose. Let me know how it goes for you ZMA is one of the most interesting supplements to me. It's sleep effects are something I don't understand but have experienced first hand and just can't get enough of it.
I will. I figure there's nothing to lose, and if better sleep is all I get then that's well worth it. If nothing happens, oh well I'll quit taking it. I'm going to go buy the GNC Zinc Magnesium Aspartate for $30 (120 tablets) to give it a try.
Thanks.
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%50 Placebo %50 Real Effect for the best supplements IMO.
most others %90 percent placebo effect IMO.
ANDREISDAMAN
I agree with you andreisdaman but there is still a slight effect to most of them but the net gain you notice cannot be attibuted to much more than placebo. Spend you $ how you wa't if you have it.
What about ZMA. Im interested to see what soundness and debussy have to say about ZMA. I have had some huge effects from it. Mostly incredible sleep and incredibly vivid dreams (can be very good or very bad lol) and when I wake up I feel like 100 bucks even if I didn't sleep more than 3-4 hrs it will feel like i was asleep for 8.
there is no "opinion" or theory needed, arnold palmer. there is already "sscience and fact" to prove that certain supplements work and certain ones dont.
plenty of supplements will have good effects on your physique that you CAN NOT get from whole food.
whey concentrate/isolate/hydrosylate
bcaa's
l-leucine
caffiene
yohimbine
green tea extract
etc etc etc etc
anyway, nice name, golfing fan? ever tried the famous "arnold palmer" drink? its 1/2 lemonade 1/2 ice tea. its fabulous.
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I will. I figure there's nothing to lose, and if better sleep is all I get then that's well worth it. If nothing happens, oh well I'll quit taking it. I'm going to go buy the GNC Zinc Magnesium Aspartate for $30 (120 tablets) to give it a try.
Thanks.
$30 for ZMA?? Now there is the problem. You are paying double the price at GN-Crap. Go to your local mom and pop shop or go online, that is way too pricey man!!!
Didn't read all these posts, but bottom line, Supplements do not replace food.
Supplements definition means "In addition to" meaning, to add to your diet and training program, not replace.
Yes, lots of marketing and hype behind some supps but some are very worthy. Keep it simple, dont need the whole store but there are supps that are useful kids. ;)
Plus, if a product gives you a placebo effec, say someone does train a bit harder maybe gets a few more reps on a lift he has been struggling with, what is the harm with that? Would you say the product was not working? Not to that kid...
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Debussey has developed its own memorization and knowledge-integration system. Debussey's visual and episodic memory = a lot stronger than its auditory memorization ability, so Debussey has built a system around representing knowledge in visual and episodic terms that suits Debusseys memory best (this means not using the "association techniques" taught in normal mnemonic books as they are usually used).
Debussey first systematizes the knowledge to be memorized or really integrated (if applied to problem-situations, where the theoretical framework is to be applied to a task, the information must be overlearned so you don't have to consciously think to use it) in a very strict manner after one of several predefined "representation templates". Debussey then usually finds some visual representation of each defined "block" of knowledge, and this can for example be an abstract shape with a specific color (Debussey often uses color-coding in abstract structures to represent specific concepts or "configurations) that also does a repetitive movement (Debussey has a slight case of motion-synesthesia which makes visual figures with movement easy to remember due to the sound they produce), and perhaps a melody or specific sound (Debussey has a knack for remembering melodies).
After representing the information in a systematic sense via the visual and the auditory faculties as described above, Debussey has several "visual representation blocks" that are now visualized together several times in one or several ways. For example, Debussey can visualize a landscape where many different images/sounds as described above are organized together in some way. After a couple of visualizations, these "visualized landscapes" or similar visualizations (like "movies" in the mind with the image-representations as "actors") are basically remembered for years without much repetitions. Debussey has found that the more episodic, melody and motion stuff it incorporates, the longer and stronger the visualization sticks, due to the attributes of Debusseys brain already described.
Next is ensuring that the visualization will become integrated knowledge. Debussey will retell information contained in the images until an image naturally leads to a certain piece of information. This = a pretty easy job once a systematized method has been used for a long time. For example, the key of A (440) is easily heard as such on the piano, and the color blue immediately pops up (Debusseys color for A). For other concepts it can be an abstract image or an image of a person or something that just pops up once the information contained in it = thought of. It works the other way as well, the visual representation = seen, and the concept = recalled. (Which makes seeing the color blue fucking tiresome at times).
Once a proper association between the visual stimuli and the information it represents = there, Debussey usually does some integration work, like solving problems or doing exercises. Debussey focuses on using "pencil and paper" as little as possible, and instead doing the entire thing in the head. Usually, by this point, solving problems = pretty easy, since most people need exercises to INTEGRATE the principles that are not properly integrated into memory BEFORE starting on the exercise, thereby making the early exercise solving simply a memorization tool.
If doing things like playing a guitar, Debussey usually plays something while seeing an image or another representation of it. If practicing an inversion of an arpeggio on a guitar with a metronome, Debussey sees the appropriate representation of it in the mind, thereby strengthening the association between the represented theory and the motor-skill of playing.
This is just a basic overview of Debusseys way of doing it. The system = pretty detailed for different types of information and shit, and there = no point in regurgitating all of it here. It probably = useless for many other people, since it's tailored for Debusseys quirks and piss.
A small note about this way of doing it is that the recall of information seems to go incredibly fast, and the ability to scan information and get an overview of it (seeing huge detailed landscapes or abstract "worlds" or just a bunch of colors = pretty easy) = very easy. It sure beats pure root memorization, which = much slower, and without the same "staying power". At least for the retarded 52IQ brain of Debussey.
In simple terms: This way of doing it improves the possible quantity of memorization, and the quality of the memorization and subsequent remembering.
:D
Epic off-topic post. I will let it slide for purely entertainment reasons. :D
SUCKMYMUSCLE
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Yeah ZMA from GNC is more expensive. But thing is you can return it even if you use it for a few weeks if it doesn't work. Therefore I think its a good idea if you a trying for the first time. And really its about $20 online so with shipping its not that more. I think its for a month and a half instead of a month supply like the ones online for $20.
Tbombz,
I know all about research and have actually done some of it myself. You can make a study that shows anything. I could find correlation between any variable and make it seem like it causes muscle growth or muscle atrophy. You can't rely completely on research that is usually funded and biased by supplement companies themselves. Its part of the equation but you can't throw out personal experience they are both valuable, ok douchbag.
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your probably right but at 28$ per 40 servings, about 70 cents a workout i think i can afford the extra. I do agree as bodybuilders or whatever we are, we do get into rituals and they have a tremendous psychological difference.
c'mon Brent..you are too smart to let yourself be ripped off...even you admit in your post that the supps only make a PSYCHOLOGICAL difference...they do not work in terms of getting bigger or stronger physically...YOU make the difference!!!
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c'mon Brent..you are too smart to let yourself be ripped off...even you admit in your post that the supps only make a PSYCHOLOGICAL difference...they do not work in terms of getting bigger or stronger physically...YOU make the difference!!!
but i honestly think that no-xplode helps me workout better and as long as i think that its no biggie. To me its no diff then using an ipod to workout with, i may not need any music to workout to but my workouts are much better with.
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%50 Placebo %50 Real Effect for the best supplements IMO.
most others %90 percent placebo effect IMO.
ANDREISDAMAN
I agree with you andreisdaman but there is still a slight effect to most of them but the net gain you notice cannot be attibuted to much more than placebo. Spend you $ how you wa't if you have it.
What about ZMA. Im interested to see what soundness and debussy have to say about ZMA. I have had some huge effects from it. Mostly incredible sleep and incredibly vivid dreams (can be very good or very bad lol) and when I wake up I feel like 100 bucks even if I didn't sleep more than 3-4 hrs it will feel like i was asleep for 8.
Thanks for your agreement with me Arnold Palmer....I think supps are basically placebo...and nothing else....and ZMA is an example..I have tried it and it DOES enhance sleep..plus it gives me some wild , vivid dreams.....but it wasn't marketed as such originally...it was supposed to boost testosterone which it DOES NOT!...but we believe that it does and hence we think our test levels are higher but they aren't really....ZMA does nothing to help you build muscle..plain and simple....hence..another rip-off.....it may help us build muscle through helping us to get a good night's sleep so that we can recuperate and have the energy to get back in the gym again,..but that's it....and no way would it sell as much if it was advertised as such.....it's sexier for the supp companies to claim it boosts test levels....
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I'm pretty sure there are a lot of supplements out there that are bullshit but stuff like whey protein isolate, no-explode and creatine definitely are not bullshit. I wouldn't train in the gym without these now.
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Yeah ZMA from GNC is more expensive. But thing is you can return it even if you use it for a few weeks if it doesn't work. Therefore I think its a good idea if you a trying for the first time. And really its about $20 online so with shipping its not that more. I think its for a month and a half instead of a month supply like the ones online for $20.
I pay under $15, with tax for NOW ZMA at my local mom and pop shop. All ZMA is trademarked from SNAC Systems (Victor Conte) so all ZMA is the same :-\
Same return policy however, you need to use any supplement longer than a couple weeks to know if it is actually working or not. Lot of factors to determine if a supplement is working.
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I'm pretty sure there are a lot of supplements out there that are bullshit but stuff like whey protein isolate, no-explode and creatine definitely are not bullshit. I wouldn't train in the gym without these now.
well...as I have said..if you want a false placebo effect..then fine..take it...but you don't need that stuff.....creatine only helps u to retain water so u get heavier and bloated..you THINK you are bigger but it doesn't last....go to the gym without taking all the junk..you will be richer and feel much much better
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Andre,
You make some good points in your post. I agree there is a lot of crap that has come on the market over the years and some companies are shameless in their advertising.
That being said after working out form many years a person does begin to come "in tune" with their bodies. They know what gets them moving for a workout and what doesn't. For example I have found creatine/beta-alanine products to give me good energy and less soreness. I know what it is to train with and without it. Soreness and feeling like you can train more days a week with a supplement goes beyond the psychological ritual that you point out.
Another example is a protein powder. Sometimes when working long days I just dont have time to sit down and eat. A protein supplement allows me to get a quick meal when I'm busy. I dont expect it to turn me into a pro bodybuilder but it serves its purpose to get a meal.
Your point is well taken that companies want you to empty your wallet...so does every other business on the planet. Think about the crap that the average consumer purchases. If your working out, eating well, and living the lifestyle, supplements have their place. It is up to the consumer to make an educated decision and be realistic about what the expectations are. At least today we have message boards to discuss what works and different experiences. Back when I started it was Joe Weiders line of soy based proteins. lol. We have come a long way.
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Supplements that have worked well for me.(if you get the right brand)- Aromatase Inhibitors= Less estrogen and more testosterone. Gh peptide 2- proven in many studies to release significant amounts of Growth hormone. High doses of Eurycoma and Avena sativa extracts- decent boosts in testosterone. UPS labs Anabolic Pump- good Glucose disposal supplement, shuttles carbs into muscle and inhibits entry into fat cells causing more fullness and greater workout Pump. Hydrolyzed Whey protein-fastest absorbed whey there is= great post workout recovery booster. If you're not on steroids, then the next best thing is to boost your natural levels of GH and testosterone to higher levels and maintain a positive nitrogen balance through properly timed protein and amino acid feedings.
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Best supplement = food !
food is not a supplement.HTH.
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Supplements that have worked well for me.(if you get the right brand)- Aromatase Inhibitors= Less estrogen and more testosterone. Gh peptide 2- proven in many studies to release significant amounts of Growth hormone. High doses of Eurycoma and Avena sativa extracts- decent boosts in testosterone. UPS labs Anabolic Pump- good Glucose disposal supplement, shuttles carbs into muscle and inhibits entry into fat cells causing more fullness and greater workout Pump. Hydrolyzed Whey protein-fastest absorbed whey there is= great post workout recovery booster. If you're not on steroids, then the next best thing is to boost your natural levels of GH and testosterone to higher levels and maintain a positive nitrogen balance through properly timed protein and amino acid feedings.
hey chemist. im just wondering , since you seem like a real health concious guy , im wondering why you use the aromatase inhibitors and the gh releasing peptide. both of those are very effective for what you want them to do, thats a fact im sure you know, however both of those will effect health and lifespan in a negative way.
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hey chemist. im just wondering , since you seem like a real health concious guy , im wondering why you use the aromatase inhibitors and the gh releasing peptide. both of those are very effective for what you want them to do, thats a fact im sure you know, however both of those will effect health and lifespan in a negative way.
I don't agree with that. The Aromatase inhibitor I am talking about is 6-oxo. It is very mild in its effects. It does not totally eliminate estrogen like a good dose of Arimidex will and I also use a very small dose of 6-oxo. My blood work shows no adverse effects on cholesterol levels like what would happen with Arimidex. I have cycled 6-oxo on and off for over 3 years with no perceivable adverse effects whatsoever. No rebound when I go off.. Gh peptide 2 is what's in Hemogex by VPX. It is merely a peptide that causes release of your Growth Hormone. Why would mildly elevating your own Growth Hormone into high normal ranges be unhealthful? Growth Hormone is only unhealthy when you elevate it way beyond normal physiological levels for extended periods of time. My philosophy or theory is that the body will always respond in a more healthful way to your own DNA specific, genetically coded hormones than it will massive doses of synthetic hormones. Any non-toxic, side effect free way of elevating your own hormones is good for life extension, musclebuilding etc.
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Okay then, lol, seems you were way ahead of me.
i thought you were using a strong aromatase inhibitor and ghrp that is super strong and gets the levels above what even is achieved with a few ius of gh.
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Okay then, lol, seems you were way ahead of me.
i thought you were using a strong aromatase inhibitor and ghrp that is super strong and gets the levels above what even is achieved with a few ius of gh.
Right, although these supplements are somewhat mild, I seem to respond very favorably to them. Also, because of my age, I may get a better effect than a younger person. Actually GH peptide 2 is one of the few orally active Gh releasing petides and believe or not VPX's oral hemogex formulation supposedly keeps gh elevated longer than the injectable GH peptide 2 which you can buy from certain "research peptide" labs.
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but i assume it reaches no where near the peak in gh levels that the injectible produces.
their was an orally active igf-1 on the market a while ago too. it got pulled though.
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but i assume it reaches no where near the peak in gh levels that the injectible produces.
their was an orally active igf-1 on the market a while ago too. it got pulled though.
When you say on the market, you don't mean on the supplement market do you? I saw some company with a product called IGF-1 but I sincerely doubt it had any IGf-1 in it. If there was an oral version, the peptide labs would have come up with it before any supplement company would have. By the way, have you ever injected IGF-1 long r-3?..If so, how many micrograms per day and what results did you get? Just curious.
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When you say on the market, you don't mean on the supplement market do you? I saw some company with a product called IGF-1 but I sincerely doubt it had any IGf-1 in it. If there was an oral version, the peptide labs would have come up with it before any supplement company would have. By the way, have you ever injected IGF-1 long r-3?..If so, how many micrograms per day and what results did you get? Just curious.
ive never used igf lr3 or any igf for that matter... i dont really believe that youll ever get any real igf from any supplier..unless you personally know somebody at a legit pharmacy..
Oratropin Profile
Summary: Oratropin is the only non-injected form of IGF-I (Insulin Like Growth Factor) that is actually available to the body. Every other dietary supplement that claims to have IGF is a waste because it can not survive the digestive system and therefore is not actually used by your body. Oratropin uses the newest anti-viral technology coupled with adhesive peptide technology so that it actually does no go through the digestive tract but is absorbed through the skin on the inside of the cheeks. Oratropin is therefore the only FDA approved, and legal form of IGF for human consumption that actually works.
Cell-Mediated™ IGF-1
(for oral use)
100% Bioavailability, Orally Active, Sustained 24-48 hours
Each kit contains:
1200mcg Cell-Mediated™ IGF-1
15 individually sealed oral syringes for ease in daily dosing,
no measurements, no hassles.
Each oral syringe contains:
80mcg Cell-Mediated™ IGF-1
sustained 24-48 hrs
0.5 cc's (0.661g) Oratropin-1™
SUGGESTED RETAIL: $220.00
its nto legal now, but it was available on the supplement marke. it was even advertised in MD for a while. its legit and it works but its impossible to find now.
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ive never used igf lr3 or any igf for that matter... i dont really believe that youll ever get any real igf from any supplier..unless you personally know somebody at a legit pharmacy..
Oratropin Profile
Summary: Oratropin is the only non-injected form of IGF-I (Insulin Like Growth Factor) that is actually available to the body. Every other dietary supplement that claims to have IGF is a waste because it can not survive the digestive system and therefore is not actually used by your body. Oratropin uses the newest anti-viral technology coupled with adhesive peptide technology so that it actually does no go through the digestive tract but is absorbed through the skin on the inside of the cheeks. Oratropin is therefore the only FDA approved, and legal form of IGF for human consumption that actually works.
Cell-Mediated™ IGF-1
(for oral use)
100% Bioavailability, Orally Active, Sustained 24-48 hours
Each kit contains:
1200mcg Cell-Mediated™ IGF-1
15 individually sealed oral syringes for ease in daily dosing,
no measurements, no hassles.
Each oral syringe contains:
80mcg Cell-Mediated™ IGF-1
sustained 24-48 hrs
0.5 cc's (0.661g) Oratropin-1™
SUGGESTED RETAIL: $220.00
its nto legal now, but it was available on the supplement marke. it was even advertised in MD for a while. its legit and it works but its impossible to find now.
I forgot about those guys. Good job. I actually bought a product from them 2 years ago, forgot the name of it, but it had GH peptide 6 and Hexarelin in it. I think they had some good legit products. Oratropin had some guys on one of their forums posting some good stuff about it.
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i defitely want to try the hexarelin from musclemeds. im nhot sure how it works but it claims to increas igf-1 like hell.
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Same results and opinion of 6-OXO right here. I think it is better than using something hardcore and trying to drop your estrogen to nill, which is not good for you anyway. Most things are good in moderation and nothing in excess is a good guideline for most things in life. You shouldn't need to fill your body with a shit tone of synthetic crap anyway our bodies capable of doing great things on thier own. A little push is great but you have to be insane if you think being all pumped on synthetics is the right way to go. If 6-OXO isn't enough your body must really fucking suck plain and simple.
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Same results and opinion of 6-OXO right here. I think it is better than using something hardcore and trying to drop your estrogen to nill, which is not good for you anyway. Most things are good in moderation and nothing in excess is a good guideline for most things in life. You shouldn't need to fill your body with a shit tone of synthetic crap anyway our bodies capable of doing great things on thier own. A little push is great but you have to be insane if you think being all pumped on synthetics is the right way to go. If 6-OXO isn't enough your body must really fucking suck plain and simple.
well it depends on what kind of level of bodybuilding your trying to get too.
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Max muscles "Carbo Max" and creatine before and whey and creatine after is no bullshit !
don't know about all the other crap they sell
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Max muscles "Carbo Max" and creatine before and whey and creatine after is no bullshit !
don't know about all the other crap they sell
do they whey and creatine before AND after...but if just one or the other then do before
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do they whey and creatine before AND after...but if just one or the other then do before
my energy level stays higher on a semi empty stomach (with the exception of the complex carbs) so I don't eat 2 hours before I go in....
protien repairs so why would'nt I get in the protien after ?
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my energy level stays higher on a semi empty stomach (with the exception of the complex carbs) so I don't eat 2 hours before I go in....
protien repairs so why would'nt I get in the protien after ?
i understand having better energy without the protien. maybe you could try some hydrolyzed protein, pepto pro, some eaa's, bcaa's or just l leucine. all those would help.
the reason for whey before is because , among other things, studies show that at the end of the day, a pre workout protein shake provides more protein accrual than a post workout shake. but that a combo of the two is even better than just one or the other.
now, the reasoning behind why this is so, i speculate its because of a decrease in proptein breakdown during exercise and an increase in lipolysis. ALSO you must consider the digestion rate of protein, and also how long it will stay in the blood stream. if you drink whey 1 hour pre workout. then at the moment your starting to workout, your whey should just get done digesting, and from that point, unless you synthesis or metabolize all those amino acids dduring you workout, then those whey aminos should be good for about three hours in your blood stream. thus, after a one hour workout, youll have whey aminos left over for two hours. so, even though its a pre workout shake, it also acts as a "durign" workout shake, and a "post" workout shake. since the aminos are available at those times as wel..
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i understand having better energy without the protien. maybe you could try some hydrolyzed protein, pepto pro, some eaa's, bcaa's or just l leucine. all those would help.
the reason for whey before is because , among other things, studies show that at the end of the day, a pre workout protein shake provides more protein accrual than a post workout shake. but that a combo of the two is even better than just one or the other.
now, the reasoning behind why this is so, i speculate its because of a decrease in proptein breakdown during exercise and an increase in lipolysis. ALSO you must consider the digestion rate of protein, and also how long it will stay in the blood stream. if you drink whey 1 hour pre workout. then at the moment your starting to workout, your whey should just get done digesting, and from that point, unless you synthesis or metabolize all those amino acids dduring you workout, then those whey aminos should be good for about three hours in your blood stream. thus, after a one hour workout, youll have whey aminos left over for two hours. so, even though its a pre workout shake, it also acts as a "durign" workout shake, and a "post" workout shake. since the aminos are available at those times as wel..
Your theory makes good metabolic sense.
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Guys...you all seem very smart and very knowledgeable about these things.....but again//believe me..if you want to ramp up your test levels..just go to the urologist.....he will give you a needle in the ass of testosterone every two months...costs me $45.00 per visit....and I am getting the real thing......don't have to waste money on supp junk....this works better than any supp...and my dick is so hard in the mornings it feels like it's going to burst out of my underwear and walk around the room on it's own...and for the average gym joe...this is sufficient..u are never going to get the huge amounts of test needed to build extaordinary muscle like the pros by taking inhibitors and stuf like that...
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Guys...you all seem very smart and very knowledgeable about these things.....but again//believe me..if you want to ramp up your test levels..just go to the urologist.....he will give you a needle in the ass of testosterone every two months...costs me $45.00 per visit....and I am getting the real thing......don't have to waste money on supp junk....this works better than any supp...and my dick is so hard in the mornings it feels like it's going to burst out of my underwear and walk around the room on it's own...and for the average gym joe...this is sufficient..u are never going to get the huge amounts of test needed to build extaordinary muscle like the pros by taking inhibitors and stuf like that...
You're getting huge amounts of test from HRT?
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Guys...you all seem very smart and very knowledgeable about these things.....but again//believe me..if you want to ramp up your test levels..just go to the urologist.....he will give you a needle in the ass of testosterone every two months...costs me $45.00 per visit....and I am getting the real thing......don't have to waste money on supp junk....this works better than any supp...and my dick is so hard in the mornings it feels like it's going to burst out of my underwear and walk around the room on it's own...and for the average gym joe...this is sufficient..u are never going to get the huge amounts of test needed to build extaordinary muscle like the pros by taking inhibitors and stuf like that...
how old r u..what did you tell the urologist as to why you need it.
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You're getting huge amounts of test from HRT?
No...not HUGE amounts...but enough to make a difference..I feel good and my sex life is great....and since I feel good and feel stronger (younger) I am able to perform better in the gym and get bigger....not due to the supps but because I feel good about myself and it translates to working out...with stuff like OXO you are boosting test somewhat..but at what dollar price?..and again...it's not going to help you tremendously in the gym to get an bigger.......as a matter of fact..there are studies that show that test levels DECREASE in the long run due to heavy training (this happened to me)....so what you are actually doing is pitting peter against paul......boosting your test with inhibitors and then lowering your test by working out...supp companies don't want you to know this.....So no, I am not getting supraphysiological amounts of test from HRT...but I am able to work out well....bang my wife (along with the occasional affair) with confidence and get the workout I need in the gym..what more as a man can u ask for? We will NEVER look like those guys in the mags we worship anyway.
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how old r u..what did you tell the urologist as to why you need it.
I am 46....and my test levels were low.....told the urologist I was having problems sometimes in bed..(doesn't matter if it's true or not, just tell him that)...they give you free samples of viagra and a test shot to gauge effectiveness.....when you go back, tell him that the shot was awesome and you want to continue....you go every two or three months and you will feel energy and strength and your dick will be begging you for p...y.
I worked out three to four times a week and my test levels plummeted..OXO and stuff like that isn't going to help you..only prescribed test can make the difference
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Guys...you all seem very smart and very knowledgeable about these things.....but again//believe me..if you want to ramp up your test levels..just go to the urologist.....he will give you a needle in the ass of testosterone every two months...costs me $45.00 per visit....and I am getting the real thing......don't have to waste money on supp junk....this works better than any supp...and my dick is so hard in the mornings it feels like it's going to burst out of my underwear and walk around the room on it's own...and for the average gym joe...this is sufficient..u are never going to get the huge amounts of test needed to build extaordinary muscle like the pros by taking inhibitors and stuf like that...
i agree with you for the most part.
but some people want to be healthy and also look good. for them they have tto try natural ways of doing things.
another great way to boost test without exogenous test is the high fat diet low carb diet. lots and lots of egg yolks, fatty red meat, nuts, etc.
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i agree with you for the most part.
but some people want to be healthy and also look good. for them they have tto try natural ways of doing things.
another great way to boost test without exogenous test is the high fat diet low carb diet. lots and lots of egg yolks, fatty red meat, nuts, etc.
understood...agreed..... .just lay off the supps...don't waste your time..you are too smart for that
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Also guys..I am really upset that someone here erased a post by soundness where he talked about the placebo effect and how this will give a psychological boost to those who believe in supps, rather than the supps themselves....that was a very good post full of sound information and it was not offensive at all...why would someone delete his post???....if we are going to have nice old-fashioned debate on here then we have to be able to have access to ALL opinion....I am proud that this thread has not decended into gay-bashing jokes, racial name-calling, and stupid putdowns like a lot of other posts on getbig....If the moderator of this post can't stand the fire then get out of the kitchen and let someone else moderate....soundness made a very valid point with his post....lets not start censoring guys who are giving thoughtful and outstanding analysis just becaaause it may clash with some else's world view....there are many other stupid threads on here where that type of interference would be appreciated....
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Also guys..I am really upset that someone here erased a post by soundness where he talked about the placebo effect and how this will give a psychological boost to those who believe in supps, rather than the supps themselves....that was a very good post full of sound information and it was not offensive at all...why would someone delete his post???....if we are going to have nice old-fashioned debate on here then we have to be able to have access to ALL opinion....I am proud that this thread has not decended into gay-bashing jokes, racial name-calling, and stupid putdowns like a lot of other posts on getbig....If the moderator of this post can't stand the fire then get out of the kitchen and let someone else moderate....soundness made a very valid point with his post....lets not start censoring guys who are giving thoughtful and outstanding analysis just becaaause it may clash with some else's world view....there are many other stupid threads on here where that type of interference would be appreciated....
I don't believe anything was deleted. :-\
Effects of Zinc Magnesium Aspartate (ZMA) Supplementation on Training Adaptations and Markers of Anabolism and Catabolism.
http://pharmiamuscle.com/pdf/effects_zinc.pdf
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18500945?ordinalpos=3&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
"ABSTRACT : This study examined whether supplementing the diet with a commercial supplement containing zinc magnesium aspartate (ZMA) during training affects zinc and magnesium status, anabolic and catabolic hormone profiles, and/or training adaptations. Forty-two resistance trained males (27 +/- 9 yrs; 178 +/- 8 cm, 85 +/- 15 kg, 18.6 +/- 6% body fat) were matched according to fat free mass and randomly assigned to ingest in a double blind manner either a dextrose placebo (P) or ZMA 30-60 minutes prior to going to sleep during 8-weeks of standardized resistance-training. Subjects completed testing sessions at 0, 4, and 8 weeks that included body composition assessment as determined by dual energy X-ray absorptiometry, 1-RM and muscular endurance tests on the bench and leg press, a Wingate anaerobic power test, and blood analysis to assess anabolic/catabolic status as well as markers of health. Data were analyzed using repeated measures ANOVA. Results indicated that ZMA supplementation non-significantly increased serum zinc levels by 11 - 17% (p = 0.12). However, no significant differences were observed between groups in anabolic or catabolic hormone status, body composition, 1-RM bench press and leg press, upper or lower body muscular endurance, or cycling anaerobic capacity. Results indicate that ZMA supplementation during training does not appear to enhance training adaptations in resistance trained populations."
Serum testosterone and urinary excretion of steroid hormone metabolites after administration of a high-dose zinc supplement.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17882141?ordinalpos=5&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
Objectives:To investigate whether the administration of the zinc-containing nutritional supplement ZMA causes an increase of serum testosterone levels, which is an often claimed effect in advertising for such products; to monitor the urinary excretion of testosterone and selected steroid hormone metabolites to detect potential changes in the excretion patterns of ZMA users.Subjects:Fourteen healthy, regularly exercising men aged 22-33 years with a baseline zinc intake between 11.9 and 23.2 mg day(-1) prior to the study.Results:Supplementation of ZMA significantly increased serum zinc (P=0.031) and urinary zinc excretion (P=0.035). Urinary pH (P=0.011) and urine flow (P=0.045) were also elevated in the subjects using ZMA. No significant changes in serum total and serum free testosterone were observed in response to ZMA use. Also, the urinary excretion pattern of testosterone metabolites was not significantly altered in ZMA users.Conclusions:The present data suggest that the use of ZMA has no significant effects regarding serum testosterone levels and the metabolism of testosterone in subjects who consume a zinc-sufficient diet.
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Now, Arnold Palmer, I'm not saying ZMA is bullshit. I'm glad you find it helpful, and the claims by Lorrie Brilla are encouraging. (Though the funding of the research raises skepticism.):
Brilla, L.R., and Haley, T.F., "Effect of Magnesium Supplementation on Strength Training in Humans," J Am Coll Nutr 11.3 (1992) : 326-9.
Brilla, L.R., and Conte, V., "Effects of Zinc-Magnesium (ZMA) Supplementation on Muscle Attributes of Football Players," Med Sci Sports Exer 31.5 (1999).
http://faculty.css.edu/tboone2/asep/BrillaV2.PDF
In the study above, Brilla reported that ZMA supplementation in Western Washington University football players resulted in a 30% increase in testosterone, an increase in IGF-1, and a 250% increase in strength gains compared to the group that took a placebo. There are also no major side effects reported from ZMA use. Miraculous, indeed.
Here's the problem: ARE THERE OTHER STUDIES, BESIDES BRILLA'S THAT CLAIM THIS? I couldn't find any, but please forward them to me if you do. The first studies I posted in this reply do not confirm this, which raises skepticism. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt, here, I just want you to show me some research besides Brilla's that confirms Brilla's claims.
Here are a few that favor zinc, but I'm wondering about ZMA supplementation in particular.:
Cordova, A., and Alvarez-Mon. M., "Behaviour of Zinc in Physical Exercise: A Special Reference to Immunity and Fatigue," Neurosci Biobehav Rev 19.3 (1995) : 439-45.
Haralambie, G., "Serum Zinc in Athletes in Training," Int J Sports Med 2.3 (1981) : 135-8.
Singh, A., et al., "Magnesium, Zinc, and Copper Status of US Navy SEAL Trainees," Am J Clin Nutr 49.4 (1989) : 695-700.
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Get critical; don't be a product of media hype. If you can show that ZMA does what Brilla claims it does with research that is not Brilla's, I'll purchase some ZMA and take it. I certainly would want to if the findings are legit. The problem is, as I said, Brilla's studies are the one and only studies cited by companies attempting to sell this supplement and there is research to suggest the findings on that study are not valid. Please prove this wrong. ZMA is a godsend for the natural bodybuilder if those claims are true...
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Also guys..I am really upset that someone here erased a post by soundness where he talked about the placebo effect and how this will give a psychological boost to those who believe in supps, rather than the supps themselves....that was a very good post full of sound information and it was not offensive at all...why would someone delete his post???....if we are going to have nice old-fashioned debate on here then we have to be able to have access to ALL opinion....I am proud that this thread has not decended into gay-bashing jokes, racial name-calling, and stupid putdowns like a lot of other posts on getbig....If the moderator of this post can't stand the fire then get out of the kitchen and let someone else moderate....soundness made a very valid point with his post....lets not start censoring guys who are giving thoughtful and outstanding analysis just becaaause it may clash with some else's world view....there are many other stupid threads on here where that type of interference would be appreciated....
Thanks andreisdaman, I truly appreciate that and it shows upstanding character on your part.
I must admit, I bought some ZMA in pursuit of the deepest sleep possible. Arnold's comments and your comments were encouraging, as were numerous studies on magnesium, zinc, b-6, and an overwhelming amount of testimonials that it helped with sleep. I figure if all I get from it is a great night's sleep it's worth it... $30 for 120 tablets 2 tablets before bed comes out to only 50 cents a night that's worth a great night's sleep even if I don't get a boost in test as they claim....
What I'm asking for particularly are scientific studies to prove that specific supplements facilitate hypertrophy goals. I am not taking sides, testimonials are better than nothing, but if all you have is word-of-mouth, you must account for the fact that it is likely placebo. The mind tends to draw correlations, often illusory. Placebo means belief caused the effect, not that it was actually caused by what's in the supplement. If you take something believing it will cause you to have better workouts, that belief alone can increase your gains. Therefore, it is placebo, not the supplement. Think of "placebo" as synonymous with "belief." In scientific studies, it is usually a fake pill or fake something.
I agree with those of you who claim it's worth it to purchase supplements if it is absolutely necessary to instill the belief in yourself and therefore yeild the additional gains. However, as andreisdaman pointed out, taking them can basically become a ritual. If you really wanted to save money you could simply find a different ritual. One thing I do personally is visualization. I put my hands on the bar, close my eyes and imagine myself pumping out solid reps. The triumph of strength. Then, between my workouts I do all I can to maintain the feeling that I'm growing. The way you feel between workouts will have a great bearing on your success when your workout finally does come around. You must know you're growing. Convince yourself of it. Why does this work? You guessed it: BELIEF. ;)
What I am asking for are LEGITIMATE, PUBLISHED, PEER-REVIEWED SCIENTIFIC STUDIES that show specific supplements promote muscular growth. Preferably they'd be confirmed by others and there wouldn't be contradictory research out there as we've seen with ZMA and testosterone increase. If you can show me such I'd greatly appreciate it and would be highly likely to take the supplement. Please either forward me the studies or direct me to them if you have any. I am interested and I'm sure many other Getbiggers are as well. Thanks.
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I don't believe anything was deleted.
I did have a reply I put a fair amount of work into explaining placebo, the power of belief that can be instilled by supplements and the gains that can result solely from the belief. It was one of the first 2 replys to andreisdaman's post, before the one you have quoted above, and was deleted. Hopefully that was an accident. No big deal now, we can't bring it back, I just really wish that type of stuff didn't happen. Thanks for your concern Princess L.
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I did have a post I put a fair amount of work into explaining placebo, the power of belief that can be instilled by supplements and the gains that can result solely from the belief. It was one of the first 2 replys to andreisdaman's post and was deleted. Hopefully that was an accident. No big deal now, we can't bring it back, I just really wish that type of stuff didn't happen. Thanks for your concern Princess L.
I'm sorry your post got deleted. That is not my (our) style unless it is in blatant violation of forum policy, even if they drift off topic.
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I'm sorry your post got deleted. That is not my (our) style unless it is in blatant violation of forum policy, even if they drift off topic.
The same happened with a DEbussey-post in this thread, explaining Debusseys urine teraphy upon request >:(
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The same happened with a DEbussey-post in this thread, explaining Debusseys urine teraphy upon request >:(
So were the posts about eating shit right? Completely legitimate posts... ::)
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So were the posts about eating shit right? Completely legitimate posts... ::)
Those posts were an inquiry into new ways of doing it.
The urine-drinking post was a response to a poster, and urine therapy = a common thing. Deleting it was completely wrong. Ain't this a forum where we share experiences with nutrition? ::)
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Those posts were an inquiry into new ways of doing it.
The urine-drinking post was a response to a poster, and urine therapy = a common thing. Deleting it was completely wrong. Ain't this a forum where we share experiences with nutrition? ::)
I think you missed the point. But then again I forgot you're always serious...my mistake. Take the drinking piss stuff to the Z.
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I think you missed the point. But then again I forgot you're always serious...my mistake. Take the drinking piss stuff to the Z.
Are you not sure if Debussey = actually doing urine therapy? ::)
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Are you not sure if Debussey = actually doing urine therapy? ::)
We don't need 50+ pages about it.
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We don't need 50+ pages about it.
That = understandable, but when Debussey has put considerable effort into its urine therapy project, and when a poster asks for Debusseys experiences with this directly on a forum where such a question = suitable, then please don't delete the post.
A lot of people = communicating with Debussey over PM about this stuff. The interest = high, and several of these people = rapporting that they are benefitting from the urine therapy.
Debussey will not flood this board with this, but please do not delete serious posts about it when members = asking for info.
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That = understandable, but when Debussey has put considerable effort into its urine therapy project, and when a poster asks for Debusseys experiences with this directly on a forum where such a question = suitable, then please don't delete the post.
A lot of people = communicating with Debussey over PM about this stuff. The interest = high, and several of these people = rapporting that they are benefitting from the urine therapy.
Debussey will not flood this board with this, but please do not delete serious posts about it when members = asking for info.
LOL.
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Ok. So you're drinking piss. Now we all know it's serious. Keep it on the PM's.
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Ok. So you're drinking piss. Now we all know it's serious. Keep it on the PM's.
Soundness has posted a lot of scientific backing for urine therapy. It's serious, even though your limited knowledge about the stuff somehow leads you to think that you have the right to automatically dismiss it. Very "scientific" of you.. ::)
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Thanks andreisdaman, I truly appreciate that and it shows upstanding character on your part.
I must admit, I bought some ZMA in pursuit of the deepest sleep possible. Arnold's comments and your comments were encouraging, as were numerous studies on magnesium, zinc, b-6, and an overwhelming amount of testimonials that it helped with sleep. I figure if all I get from it is a great night's sleep it's worth it... $30 for 120 tablets 2 tablets before bed comes out to only 50 cents a night that's worth a great night's sleep even if I don't get a boost in test as they claim....
What I'm asking for particularly are scientific studies to prove that specific supplements facilitate hypertrophy goals. I am not taking sides, testimonials are better than nothing, but if all you have is word-of-mouth, you must account for the fact that it is likely placebo. The mind tends to draw correlations, often illusory. Placebo means belief caused the effect, not that it was actually caused by what's in the supplement. If you take something believing it will cause you to have better workouts, that belief alone can increase your gains. Therefore, it is placebo, not the supplement. Think of "placebo" as synonymous with "belief." In scientific studies, it is usually a fake pill or fake something.
I agree with those of you who claim it's worth it to purchase supplements if it is absolutely necessary to instill the belief in yourself and therefore yeild the additional gains. However, as andreisdaman pointed out, taking them can basically become a ritual. If you really wanted to save money you could simply find a different ritual. One thing I do personally is visualization. I put my hands on the bar, close my eyes and imagine myself pumping out solid reps. The triumph of strength. Then, between my workouts I do all I can to maintain the feeling that I'm growing. The way you feel between workouts will have a great bearing on your success when your workout finally does come around. You must know you're growing. Convince yourself of it. Why does this work? You guessed it: BELIEF. ;)
What I am asking for are LEGITIMATE, PUBLISHED, PEER-REVIEWED SCIENTIFIC STUDIES that show specific supplements promote muscular growth. Preferably they'd be confirmed by others and there wouldn't be contradictory research out there as we've seen with ZMA and testosterone increase. If you can show me such I'd greatly appreciate it and would be highly likely to take the supplement. Please either forward me the studies or direct me to them if you have any. I am interested and I'm sure many other Getbiggers are as well. Thanks.
you are right Soundness...I wish we could have more peer reviewed stuff on here which bears out which supps are effective and which aren't..the problem is..all reviews and scientific studies are done by the SUPPLEMENT COMPANIES THEMSELVES....I wish the government would get involved and do some studies on some of these supps and rate their effectiveness...The supp companies take their studies and skew them anyway they want
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Some posts are just garbage and merit deletion. If you are going to argue in favor of urine therapy, then provide scientific data to support your contentions or at least make logically concise arguments to defend it's validity for health and in treating ailments, etc.
Personally, I regard the topic of urine therapy as bordering on trolling, but I tolerate it if the posters discuss it seriously. However, some posters were making obvious trollish comments and puns about drinking piss and I sincerely don't think these merit remaining posted. Just my completely arbitrary judgement.
And I believe that, if a poster disagrees with some moderator's decision, he should make a thread about it in the questions&complain board to Ron, or PM him directly about it. After all, we are here simply to enforce his rules, and it is up to him to decide if we've misenterpretated his rules and abused mod powers. In the case of a severe abuse of power, Ron usually demods the offender - although this has only happened once as far as I can recall. I strongly recommend this course of action to those who think some mod has jumped the shark.
SUCKMYMUSCLE
P.S: I did not delete "Soundness" posts.
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Some posts are just garbage and merit deletion. If you are going to argue in favor of urine therapy, then provide scientific data to support your contentions or at least make logically concise arguments to defend it's validity for health and in treating ailments, etc.
Personally, I regard the topic of urine therapy as bordering on trolling, but I tolerate it if the posters discuss it seriously. However, some posters were making obvious trollish comments and puns about drinking piss and I sincerely don't think these merit remaining posted. Just my completely arbitrary judgement.
And I believe that, if a poster disagrees with some moderator's decision, he should make a thread about it in the questions&complain board to Ron, or PM him directly about it. After all, we are here simply to enforce his rules, and it is up to him to decide if we've misenterpretated his rules and abused mod powers. In the case of a severe abuse of power, Ron usually demods the offender - although this has only happened once as far as I can recall. I strongly recommend this course of action to those who think some mod has jumped the shark.
SUCKMYMUSCLE
P.S: I did not delete "Soundness" posts.
I'm not singling you out, suckmymuscle, but whoever thinks the things you just posted needs to wake up to the fact that there is a broad spectrum of opinion and their own is not always the one and only accurate one. ::)
If you don't agree with something, that's fine. That doesn't change the fact that it's serious advice and by no means warrants the post(s) to be deleted. The moderator position doesn't exist for you to simply "filter out" what you don't agree with so that everything can remain consistent with your own opinion.
It is so clear that urine therapy is not a joke that there is no debate. Do a simple Google search. Millions of people in China, India, Germany, and scattered throughout the entire globe use urine therapy for health and as a general life enhancer. In fact, there is a Chinese Association of Urine Therapy and there are people trying to unite communities of people who do it. For example, look at http://www.urine-therapy.org It is obvious you know this is no joke, you just don't like to hear about it because it doesn't fit with your current assumptions. This in no way means you should delete posts that could benefit fellow Getbig members who may not jump to conclusions (assumptions) as quickly as yourself. Urine therapy could help many people and should by no means be dismissed because of a personal "grudge." Have your own opinions and respect the fact that others respect your opinion yet also have theirs.
To request that each every claim by every poster is backed by scientific studies is obviously ridiculous. Do you request the same for anyone who mentions the effectiveness of every supplement they ever mention? NO. The requirements for all claims should be equal. The internet doesn't even possess a fraction of the scientific articles that have been published, the majority of published studies are commercially driven, and most of them would be impossible to forward people to with the internet anyways. Again, if you don't like the advice, either disagree or give different advice. It's that simple, just please do not delete the work of a different member.
If you don't like the advice, give different advice or explain why you don't like it. But don't simply delete the work of another member. We all have the right to have different opinions. You don't have to take the advice or agree with it. Present your view and let others present theirs. I show respect to others with my posts and expect reciprocal respect in return. It's as simple as having respect of others. Thanks.
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I'm not singling you out, suckmymuscle, but whoever thinks the things you just posted needs to wake up to the fact that there is a broad spectrum of opinion and their own is not always the one and only accurate one.
If you don't agree with something, that's fine. That doesn't change the fact that it's serious advice and by no means warrants the post(s) to be deleted. The moderator position doesn't exist for you to simply "filter out" what you don't agree with so that everything can remain consistent with your own opinion.
Why have you underlined that part? All judgement is arbitrary. There are no specific guidelines as to what to do for each and every single possible thing that can happen. Ron has established trolling, baiting and off-topic banter as things that are ok to be deleted. However, the interpretation of what constitutes trolling and baiting is subjective and it's up for the mods to decide. Any mod here or on any other internet board interprets what constitutes trolling and disruptive behavior and acts on his own judgement. There isn't a list with all possible posts that constitutes trolling for us to search for and see if a post is a troll post or not. Just like a judge interprets laws in a judicial rulling, a mod interprets the administrator's rules in his own rulings. And I did not delete your post, Soundness. That was another mod.
SUCKMYMUSCLE
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Why have you underlined that part? All judgement is arbitrary. There are no specific guidelines as to what to do for each and every single possible thing that can happen. Ron has established trolling, baiting and off-topic banter as things that are ok to be deleted. However, the interpretation of what constitutes trolling and baiting is subjective and it's up for the mods to decide. Any mod here or on any other internet board interprets what constitutes trolling and disruptive behavior and acts on his own judgement. There isn't a list with all possible posts that constitutes trolling for us to search for and see if a post is a troll post or not. Just like a judge interprets laws in a judicial rulling, a mod interprets the administrator's rules in his own rulings. And I did not delete your post, Soundness. That was another mod.
SUCKMYMUSCLE
I realize you personally didn't delete the post, I hold nothing against you for that.
Valid point, but it's obvious urine therapy is not "trolling" or a joke in any way, would you not agree?
It's clearly not something I made up; you can find a wealth of information on it on the internet, and as I've pointed out, there are even a number of organizations devoted to it. It is a fact of the world and taken advantage o by millions. It is no joke and advice pertaining to it is genuine, in no way "trolling."
I appreciate your mature response, suckmymuscle, I enjoy your posts very much so and as I said, I'm not trying to single you out by any means. I simply know someone moderating this forum apparently needs to hear these things and I can only hope they comprehend it. Again, I respect others' opinions and expect reciprocal respect. My posts and advice are genuine, that should also be clear, I would not waste my time doing otherwise on here. Thanks.
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My posts and advice is genuine, that should also be clear, I would not waste my time doing otherwise on here. Thanks.
Exactly.
Our initiative with urine therapy has been genuine from the start. Debussey has as already stated personally experimented with this, and is very pleased with the results. Although Debussey has not dug as deeply into the science of urine therapy as Soundness has, Debusseys experiences = a useful contribution to this subject, as is other members experiences with different supplements and dieting strategies that = frequently posted on this board.
Although some people for some reason believe that Debussey's user rapports lack the serious nature commonly associated with posts of this kind where experiences = shared, Debussey assures you that the urine experiments = real. Debussey might have some fun on the other boards, but would not troll this board when it comes to this.
Debusseys user rapports with this therapy has NOT violated the forum rules.
Just to make this clear:
1. Show common courtesy at all times. Know the difference between a difference of opinion and a personal attack. Don't engage in insults. Do remember that we have members from a variety of nations, races and religious beliefs.
-> Debussey has not been acting inappropriately in discussing this topic. All discussions have been civil.
2. Search for existing topics before starting new threads.
-> As far as Debussey knows, there = almost no existing user experiences on this therapy on this board.
3. Do not post copyrighted material without permission, except as allowable under fair-use guidelines; post the link instead.
-> Never done that.
4. Do not post solicitations or advertisements without permission.
-> Never done that.
5. Do not post public threats, or any material that is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, or invasive of a person's privacy.
-> Never done that. The experiences Debussey has posted has been as accurate as these experiences can be.
6. This forum is for support, empowerment, sharing opinions and entertainment. Getbig.com is not a professional advice forum, and no one should use it as such. For medical problems, consult a medical professional.
-> Never broken.
7. Moderators may move posts as deemed necessary to ensure you get the appropriate help.
-> If there is a clear difference of opinion here between the moderators and Debussey and Soundness, EVEN THOUGH no rules have have been broken.. Then this thing has to be settled with Ron.
8. Do not register or post under multiple user names.
-> Debussey don't do that.
9. Report objectionable posts to the moderators rather than responding in kind.
-> Debussey = in agreement with this rule.
10. Members who violate forum rules will receive a warning, and continued violations may result in temporary or permanent loss of posting privileges. The moderators reserve the right to edit or delete posts that violate forum rules.
-> Debussey has never received a warning regarding the nutrition board, and Debussey has a well established and constructive dialogue with Ron.
11. By registering to use the forum, you agree to abide by all terms and conditions, and give the board administration staff permission to contact you at the e-mail address listed in your profile.
-> Debussey = familiar with this rule.
12. Getbig has a search feature. Use it before posting your question.
-> Debussey has already done that, as indicated earlier in this post.
Rimbaud basically deleted some of Debusseys posts regarding this because he meant urine therapy lacked any kind of seriousness to it. He wrote: "Ok. So you're drinking piss. Now we all know it's serious. Keep it on the PM's.", even though there has been NO rule violations regarding this, and even though urine therapy CLEARLY has scientific backing to some degree.
Also keep in mind that a lot of the bodybuilding supplements discussed on this board have less science and real testimonials backing their effectivity than urine therapy does. So if Rimbaud had actually studied urine therapy a little bit, he should have been aware of the fact that it = more serious than a lot of the supplements that = freely discussed here.
Debussey has nothing against any of the moderators on this board, and Debussey thank you all for many good contributions to Getbig. Debussey therefore hopes that we can come to an agreement to this, since the discussion basically don't break any rules, while having more cred than many other "accepted" discussions here.
And mods, please do not delete this post, as there is nothing in the rules that says it should be deleted. Taking the rules in your own hands do not improve the quality of this board. If anything, this discussion is a great way for us all to improve this board.
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Debussey and soundness..you have convinced me that you are both serious about the piss-drinking theory...I am not ready to try it yet and I don't think I ever will to be honest...but no offense...you two guys must stink to high heaven if you are actually using piss in your hair..on your skin...drinking it...etc....does it make you smell bad...this is a serious question...not a put-down
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Debussey and soundness..you have convinced me that you are both serious about the piss-drinking theory...I am not ready to try it yet and I don't think I ever will to be honest...but no offense...you two guys must stink to high heaven if you are actually using piss in your hair..on your skin...drinking it...etc....does it make you smell bad...this is a serious question...not a put-down
No, it actually absorbs completely into the body, including the hair, skin, inside the mouth, etc... quickly, and no longer smells after it absorbs.
Something even more interesting is that it will make all the cells of your entire body do what they do even better. For instance, it will make the skin cells absorb oxygen more efficiently. It will reverse aging effects. Most of what we call "aging" is actually the effects of starving ourselves of what we need, which was in the urine we have been throwing away all along.
So, no, it doesn't make you smell. In fact, it makes you smell better than if you hadn't used it, because it cleans you. It absorbs into any part of your body quickly, then once it is completely absorbed there is no smell at all and you are a healthier you.
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Debussey DF,
Regarding THIS particular issue, you must admit your past behavior demonstrates a lack of seriousness on most topics (here & elsewhere). Since past behavior is a fairly good predictor of future behavior it is easy to understand why your post(s) may have been misinterpreted/misjudged and subsequently removed. Let's consider it an honest mistake and move forward.
Secondly, on a lighter note :P This moderator finds two things incredibly annoying about your participation here.
1. Talking in the 3rd person
2. Your avatar
Don't worry. I won't hold them against you ;D
Happy New Year
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Debussey DF,
Regarding THIS particular issue, you must admit your past behavior demonstrates a lack of seriousness on most topics (here & elsewhere). Since past behavior is a fairly good predictor of future behavior it is easy to understand why your post(s) may have been misinterpreted/misjudged and subsequently removed. Let's consider it an honest mistake and move forward.
Secondly, on a lighter note :P This moderator finds two things incredibly annoying about your participation here.
1. Talking in the 3rd person
2. Your avatar
Don't worry. I won't hold them against you ;D
Happy New Year
Thank you. Debussey agrees, let's move forward and make this place an arena for constructive dialogue where everyone can benefit.
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Debussey DF,
Regarding THIS particular issue, you must admit your past behavior demonstrates a lack of seriousness on most topics (here & elsewhere). Since past behavior is a fairly good predictor of future behavior it is easy to understand why your post(s) may have been misinterpreted/misjudged and subsequently removed. Let's consider it an honest mistake and move forward.
Secondly, on a lighter note :P This moderator finds two things incredibly annoying about your participation here.
1. Talking in the 3rd person
2. Your avatar
Don't worry. I won't hold them against you Grin
Happy New Year
Gotta agree with Pincess L, Debussey....a lot of time I don't know if you are serious, joking, or a raving lunatic....and talking about yourself in the third person makes me think u are a schizophrenic.....your posts are very insightful for the most part though....and I enjoy reading them...
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Rimbaud basically deleted some of Debusseys posts regarding this because he meant urine therapy lacked any kind of seriousness to it. He wrote: "Ok. So you're drinking piss. Now we all know it's serious. Keep it on the PM's.", even though there has been NO rule violations regarding this, and even though urine therapy CLEARLY has scientific backing to some degree.
Also keep in mind that a lot of the bodybuilding supplements discussed on this board have less science and real testimonials backing their effectivity than urine therapy does. So if Rimbaud had actually studied urine therapy a little bit, he should have been aware of the fact that it = more serious than a lot of the supplements that = freely discussed here.
No Rimbaud deleted the posts because it's nearly impossibly to tell if you're ever serious (& many others). Most of your posts here sound like they belong on the G&O board not the nutrition board. How would you explain the spamming the supposed urine therapy threads, posts, etc have caused (even by the Debussey). All I'm saying is keep it fairly serious & don't go too off topic (for example a thread about whey protein doesn't need fifteen urine posts does it?). So lastly if Debussey had taken & passed middle school composition he would know how to write. ;)
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No Rimbaud deleted the posts because it's nearly impossibly to tell if you're ever serious (& many others). Most of your posts here sound like they belong on the G&O board not the nutrition board. How would you explain the spamming the supposed urine therapy threads, posts, etc have caused (even by the Debussey). All I'm saying is keep it fairly serious & don't go too off topic (for example a thread about whey protein doesn't need fifteen urine posts does it?). So lastly if Debussey had taken & passed middle school composition he would know how to write. ;)
:D
Debussey will enjoy a lot of urine this next year.
Gotta agree with Pincess L, Debussey....a lot of time I don't know if you are serious, joking, or a raving lunatic....and talking about yourself in the third person makes me think u are a schizophrenic.....your posts are very insightful for the most part though....and I enjoy reading them...
Although Debusseys demeanor can seem somewhat ambiguous at times, Debussey can assure you that it has been 100% serious with the urine therapy. Having some of it now in fact.
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okay Debussey, we get it..please no more urine posts...
but I hope this thread has made many of you guys out there think and to keep your money in your wallets...quit it with buying useless supps....they are worthless for the most part although I will make a slight concession to whey protein since it can give you a quick meal, still you don't even need that if you are eating well and eating hardy,,,all you need is fruits and veggies....milk....poult ry, fish, and steaks....potatoes...and eat maybe about four times a day with big portions....drink lots of water or crystal lite and thats it.....
this will help you big time
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okay Debussey, we get it..please no more urine posts...
but I hope this thread has made many of you guys out there think and to keep your money in your wallets...quit it with buying useless supps....they are worthless for the most part although I will make a slight concession to whey protein since it can give you a quick meal, still you don't even need that if you are eating well and eating hardy,,,all you need is fruits and veggies....milk....poult ry, fish, and steaks....potatoes...and eat maybe about four times a day with big portions....drink lots of water or crystal lite and thats it.....
this will help you big time
It must be pointed out that, even though whey protein is not necessary for muscle growth and is not considerably superior in it's ability to provide a positive nitrogen balance than other complete proteins like that of whole eggs and red meat, it offers the advantage that protein in peptide form is more bioavailable, meaning that your muscles will get it faster than the protein from steak or eggs, meaning that this may allow them to grow faster, and also that whey protein is ultra-lean unlike that of whole eggs, steak or even skinless chicken beast - which contains 4% fat versus less than 1% for most whey protein products. Just so you'll know, "andreisdaman".
SUCKMYMUSCLE
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okay Debussey, we get it..please no more urine posts...
but I hope this thread has made many of you guys out there think and to keep your money in your wallets...quit it with buying useless supps....they are worthless for the most part although I will make a slight concession to whey protein since it can give you a quick meal, still you don't even need that if you are eating well and eating hardy,,,all you need is fruits and veggies....milk....poult ry, fish, and steaks....potatoes...and eat maybe about four times a day with big portions....drink lots of water or crystal lite and thats it.....
this will help you big time
whey is cheaper and better than any meat
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Yes, I see the truth now. All supplements are useless. The fact that I am in my mid forties and have been able to restore high levels of my own testosterone levels (so I don't have to rely on artificial sources which eventually require larger and larger doses resulting in side effects that need to be contolled with anti-estrogens, DHt inhibitors to prevent hairloss and prostate enlargement, cholesterol problems and shrunken non-functioning testicles) has all been a placebo. My twenty years of studying and personally experimenting with many supplements has all been for nothing since it's all an illusion. I will quit immediately and go on hormone replacement. LOL
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whey is cheaper and better than any meat
Not exactly.
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Not exactly.
yeah exactl... got any examples to prove that false?
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yeah exactl... got any examples to prove that false?
Damn boy use spell check or learn how to type.
What's the price of whey per pound? $3.50-5.00 for a pound (roughly for concentrate). Depending on where you shop you can get meat for cheaper then that. That's all settle down there kiddo.
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Last week I purchases a pound of 96% lean ground beef for under $4 a pound.
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per pound but how many grams of protein thats what matters. also better amino acid profile (mainly more leucine)
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per pound but how many grams of protein thats what matters. also better amino acid profile (mainly more leucine)
I was answering the cheaper part. I'm not an idiot. I understand the AA contents & such are different.
I think you get more then enough L-leucine. ;)
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It must be pointed out that, even though whey protein is not necessary for muscle growth and is not considerably superior in it's ability to provide a positive nitrogen balance than other complete proteins like that of whole eggs and red meat, it offers the advantage that protein in peptide form is more bioavailable, meaning that your muscles will get it faster than the protein from steak or eggs, meaning that this may allow them to grow faster, and also that whey protein is ultra-lean unlike that of whole eggs, steak or even skinless chicken beast - which contains 4% fat versus less than 1% for most whey protein products. Just so you'll know, "andreisdaman".
SUCKMYMUSCLE
Gotta admit that's a good point, MUSCLE......thanks for the info....I do in fact use protein powders, just not consistently due to high cost.....and the rip-off factor...(do you see what Nitro-Tech and Freak-Fix cost?...they are out of their minds!!!)
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Last week I purchases a pound of 96% lean ground beef for under $4 a pound.
thats a great deal..and you are better off doing that
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Yes, I see the truth now. All supplements are useless. The fact that I am in my mid forties and have been able to restore high levels of my own testosterone levels (so I don't have to rely on artificial sources which eventually require larger and larger doses resulting in side effects that need to be contolled with anti-estrogens, DHt inhibitors to prevent hairloss and prostate enlargement, cholesterol problems and shrunken non-functioning testicles) has all been a placebo. My twenty years of studying and personally experimenting with many supplements has all been for nothing since it's all an illusion. I will quit immediately and go on hormone replacement. LOL
Hi Chemist...by no means was I meaning to degrade your experience with supps.,....can you share your secret as to how you were able to boost your test levels?..and exactly how old are you?..I am 46
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Guys...you all seem very smart and very knowledgeable about these things.....but again//believe me..if you want to ramp up your test levels..just go to the urologist.....he will give you a needle in the ass of testosterone every two months...costs me $45.00 per visit....and I am getting the real thing......don't have to waste money on supp junk....this works better than any supp...and my dick is so hard in the mornings it feels like it's going to burst out of my underwear and walk around the room on it's own...and for the average gym joe...this is sufficient..u are never going to get the huge amounts of test needed to build extaordinary muscle like the pros by taking inhibitors and stuf like that...
Once every two months? What form of testosterone and what dosage?
Once every two months would produce a roller coaster effect of hormone levels in the body. You would have high levels of testosterone right after the injection, then levels dropping to nothing after a couple of weeks depending on the type of testosterone used.
This would wreak havoc with your mind and body.
Standard good practice for HRT is 100mg or so injected once per week. This keeps blood levels more or less stable.
Many people on HRT also have to take aromatase inhibitors such as arimidex to keep estrogen under control, as high estrogen levels can lower sex drive and mood. High testosterone by itself doesn't guarantee good sex drive and mood.
Maybe you are on "testosterone pellets" which last a lot longer than injections.
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Once every two months? What form of testosterone and what dosage?
Once every two months would produce a roller coaster effect of hormone levels in the body. You would have high levels of testosterone right after the injection, then levels dropping to nothing after a couple of weeks depending on the type of testosterone used.
This would wreak havoc with your mind and body.
Standard good practice for HRT is 100mg or so injected once per week. This keeps blood levels more or less stable.
Many people on HRT also have to take aromatase inhibitors such as arimidex to keep estrogen under control, as high estrogen levels can lower sex drive and mood. High testosterone by itself doesn't guarantee good sex drive and mood.
Maybe you are on "testosterone pellets" which last a lot longer than injections.
Nope...I take injections in the ass...and you may be right...it all depends on whats right for you...the doctors will first use some test to see how you react to it...plus they give you a prescription for viagra or cialis to see if those work to help you out sexually...I didn't like being dependant on pills and the injections worked wonders for me..I'm not saying that it will work for everyone...but it was enough for me to give me nice erections and to boost my libido a bit...I was always horny before and always had the drive, but needed something to give me more energy and get-up-and-go...it's been really wonderful for me and I like the fact that I am only getting a little bit...I don't want very large doses in my body..just enough to replace what I have lost over the years.....my body was really beat up from the yearts of training and I needed a pick-me-up...my test levels were very low....in the 190's.....normal is about 230's and up
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Gotta admit that's a good point, MUSCLE......thanks for the info....I do in fact use protein powders, just not consistently due to high cost.....and the rip-off factor...(do you see what Nitro-Tech and Freak-Fix cost?...they are out of their minds!!!)
That shouldn’t be an issue. There are protein powders that you can get for a economical price. For instance, Sam’s Club sells 5-lb bags of EAS 100% Whey Protein for about $30. Or, you can hit Wal-Mart and get Body Fortress Whey Protein for just under $14 for a (now) 2.2-lb jug or $33 for a 5-lb jug.
Plus, you can always hit Vitamin Shoppe or GNC and look for clearance sales. The best deals I’ve obtained there is when Vitamin Shoppe marked down jugs of HDT 5+1 Whey protein to $10 each (I think that brand has been discontinued; hence the reason for the ultra-low price); I ended up getting three of them.
Not to mention that, at one point, Vitamin Shoppe’s brand of whey protein, Whey Tech, went for $25 for a 5-lb jug. The price has jumped to $35 over the past year. But, even with whey prices skyrocketing, VS kept the price down for as long as they could.
Then, there's GNC. With a little patience, you can get some of their stuff on clearance, such as IsoPure's RTD for $1.17 (as I type this, I'm downing a Blue Raspberry one). And, GNC is now having, at least for the next month, a "Buy One; Get One 50% Off" on nearly every product from every single brand in the store.
A little bargain shopping and some patience and you should be able to get your protein powder, without taking out a second mortgage. ;D
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That shouldn’t be an issue. There are protein powders that you can get for a economical price. For instance, Sam’s Club sells 5-lb bags of EAS 100% Whey Protein for about $30. Or, you can hit Wal-Mart and get Body Fortress Whey Protein for just under $14 for a (now) 2.2-lb jug or $33 for a 5-lb jug.
Plus, you can always hit Vitamin Shoppe or GNC and look for clearance sales. The best deals I’ve obtained there is when Vitamin Shoppe marked down jugs of HDT 5+1 Whey protein to $10 each (I think that brand has been discontinued; hence the reason for the ultra-low price); I ended up getting three of them.
Not to mention that, at one point, Vitamin Shoppe’s brand of whey protein, Whey Tech, went for $25 for a 5-lb jug. The price has jumped to $35 over the past year. But, even with whey prices skyrocketing, VS kept the price down for as long as they could.
Then, there's GNC. With a little patience, you can get some of their stuff on clearance, such as IsoPure's RTD for $1.17 (as I type this, I'm downing a Blue Raspberry one). And, GNC is now having, at least for the next month, a "Buy One; Get One 50% Off" on nearly every product from every single brand in the store.
A little bargain shopping and some patience and you should be able to get your protein powder, without taking out a second mortgage. ;D
I agree with you...I recently bought some stuff on clearance at GNC and it was a bargain....I got a big 7lb can of cell-tech for $20.00 and the manager gave me a second 7lb can for $10.00....got a can of ISOPURE pineapple/orange whey protein for $20.00 and got a huge can of Gaspari's MYOFUSION for 30% off at $42.00....this stuff will last me a very long time and it was all under $100.00....
I know I am contradicting myself since I started this thread as an anti-supp forum, but I guess what I have a major problem with is the COST of supps...not so much their usage....If you can buy supps at the prices I just mentioned then I can see reaching into your wallet..but the cost of some supps are super sky-high and basically you are paying for a placebo effect and performing a ritual.....for a dubious cost....
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I agree with you...I recently bought some stuff on clearance at GNC and it was a bargain....I got a big 7lb can of cell-tech for $20.00 and the manager gave me a second 7lb can for $10.00....got a can of ISOPURE pineapple/orange whey protein for $20.00 and got a huge can of Gaspari's MYOFUSION for 30% off at $42.00....this stuff will last me a very long time and it was all under $100.00....
I know I am contradicting myself since I started this thread as an anti-supp forum, but I guess what I have a major problem with is the COST of supps...not so much their usage....If you can buy supps at the prices I just mentioned then I can see reaching into your wallet..but the cost of some supps are super sky-high and basically you are paying for a placebo effect and performing a ritual.....for a dubious cost....
you dont have a sweet clue what you are talking about, and this thread is retarded. It is basically an opinion based thread with no sources for anything, on top of that you are self contradictory. This is a supplement forum if you want to bash supps at least do it intelligently as most on this forum use and take supplements.
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I agree.
And you gotta love the thread title... as if there was some sort of data or info proving "THE TOTAL ABSOLUTE NO - BULLSHIT TRUTH ABOUT SUPPLEMENTS"
This thread should be deleted.
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I agree.
And you gotta love the thread title... as if there was some sort of data or info proving "THE TOTAL ABSOLUTE NO - BULLSHIT TRUTH ABOUT SUPPLEMENTS"
This thread should be deleted.
i was thinking that to, on top of that this guy seems to have no understanding of supplements at all making it even worse.
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you dont have a sweet clue what you are talking about, and this thread is retarded. It is basically an opinion based thread with no sources for anything, on top of that you are self contradictory. This is a supplement forum if you want to bash supps at least do it intelligently as most on this forum use and take supplements.
First of all, my point is that NO ONE really has any data on how these supps work or even if they really do...and the data thats out there on most stuff is really contradictory..some studies say this stuff works and some say it doesn't...I gave my opinion (just as many others did on this thread) and yes if you look back at the very beginning of the thread you will see that I had a very intelligent hypothesis about supplements..I discussed the placebo effect which is a legitimate phenomenon recognized by 100% of doctors and I also discussed ritualization in which we sometimes perform rituals in order to psych ourselves up to perfom a task....
I discussed this in terms of suicide bombers who perform rituals before their bombings (such as shaving their bodies...reading the Koran, and making goodbye video tapes to love ones) which psychs them up and lessens the chance that they would chicken out and increases the chance that they will perform the assigned task..and I compared this to how supp companies will often ask us to take their worthless junk as a means of getting us to work out more so as to injest more supps.....sort of like a psychological trick
......so I discussed the placebo effect, psychology of BB'ers, and ritualization....all pretty heavy stuff for serious discussion...I never claimed to be an expert, therefore I had no obligation to provide boring scientific articles which no one wants to read anywayjust to please you....and which actually would prove nothing since most "studies" are done by the supp industry themselves and are dubious at best....believe me if these supps actually worked, the government would be all over these companies big time to make them verify their claims...the government does not do this because basically they too believe that mostly SUPPLEMENTS ARE JUNK..so they don't bother
oh and just because most people on this forum take and use supps, doesn't mean they are worth a damn...many have been brainwashed into taking this stuff by Muscle-Tech's 6 page ads....you don't need supps to flourish in the gym...especially at the prices you pay for them....just eat...take a multi-vitamin...maybe some protein powder...and you will be just fine....a lot of people take these supps and don't really know for sure if it truly worked for them or not....how can you truly gauge in a scientific way???..it's all anecdotal evidence...which is not really scientific either since you INSIST someone's opinion about supps be backed by scientific evidence...
I was honest with you guys and admitted that I contradicted myself by going out and purchasing supps.....many guys on here are NOT honest and would not have posted info which contradicts their opinions....I did so due to the extremely low cost..$30.00 for two big 7lb jugs of creatine which would usually go for about $130-$140...
I won't descend into personal criticism of you like many on here do, nor will I put down any opinion thread which you may start since opinion threads are the reason we are here...just lighten up a bit and don't automatically reach for criticism just because I hurt your feelings...present your opinions and let the participants decide who sounds most reasonable
HOPE THIS REALLY HELPS YOU
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I agree.
And you gotta love the thread title... as if there was some sort of data or info proving "THE TOTAL ABSOLUTE NO - BULLSHIT TRUTH ABOUT SUPPLEMENTS"
This thread should be deleted.
without criticizing you directly your statement that my thread should be deleted is ludicrous and without merit...just exactly what type of data should I provide for you, since there basically isn't much out there that is unbiased...I tell you what....next time I will just provide you with Muscle-Tech's 6 page ads as proof that supps work...maybe that will get you to calm down....since you so badly WANT TO BELIEVE that supps work so well....sorry I busted your bubble and destroyed your world by just simply stating an opinion that most supps are worthless and some are over-rated at best...just eat your ass off,take a multi-vitamin, take a little protein if you really have to, and sleep..you will be fine....I'm sure you are one of those who still believe that ZMA increases testosterone and will make you into a giant monster in the gym.
HOPE THIS HELPS YOU PRINCESS
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First of all, my point is that NO ONE really has any data on how these supps work or even if they really do...and the data thats out there on most stuff is really contradictory..some studies say this stuff works and some say it doesn't...I gave my opinion (just as many others did on this thread) and yes if you look back at the very beginning of the thread you will see that I had a very intelligent hypothesis about supplements..I discussed the placebo effect which is a legitimate phenomenon recognized by 100% of doctors and I also discussed ritualization in which we sometimes perform rituals in order to psych ourselves up to perfom a task....
I discussed this in terms of suicide bombers who perform rituals before their bombings (such as shaving their bodies...reading the Koran, and making goodbye video tapes to love ones) which psychs them up and lessens the chance that they would chicken out and increases the chance that they will perform the assigned task..and I compared this to how supp companies will often ask us to take their worthless junk as a means of getting us to work out more so as to injest more supps.....sort of like a psychological trick
......so I discussed the placebo effect, psychology of BB'ers, and ritualization....all pretty heavy stuff for serious discussion...I never claimed to be an expert, therefore I had no obligation to provide boring scientific articles which no one wants to read anywayjust to please you....and which actually would prove nothing since most "studies" are done by the supp industry themselves and are dubious at best....believe me if these supps actually worked, the government would be all over these companies big time to make them verify their claims...the government does not do this because basically they too believe that mostly SUPPLEMENTS ARE JUNK..so they don't bother
oh and just because most people on this forum take and use supps, doesn't mean they are worth a damn...many have been brainwashed into taking this stuff by Muscle-Tech's 6 page ads....you don't need supps to flourish in the gym...especially at the prices you pay for them....just eat...take a multi-vitamin...maybe some protein powder...and you will be just fine....a lot of people take these supps and don't really know for sure if it truly worked for them or not....how can you truly gauge in a scientific way???..it's all anecdotal evidence...which is not really scientific either since you INSIST someone's opinion about supps be backed by scientific evidence...
I was honest with you guys and admitted that I contradicted myself by going out and purchasing supps.....many guys on here are NOT honest and would not have posted info which contradicts their opinions....I did so due to the extremely low cost..$30.00 for two big 7lb jugs of creatine which would usually go for about $130-$140...
I won't descend into personal criticism of you like many on here do, nor will I put down any opinion thread which you may start since opinion threads are the reason we are here...just lighten up a bit and don't automatically reach for criticism just because I hurt your feelings...present your opinions and let the participants decide who sounds most reasonable
HOPE THIS REALLY HELPS YOU
Good points you make.
This is still a legitimate thread--yes, even if you, andreisdaman, have now purchased a couple supplements. It shows good character that you can do that yet still admit they could be bullshit. I agree and I've done the same in the past. I've purchased supplements knowing that they may be no more than hype.
Nobody has disproven your original argument, certainly not yourself simply by purchasing supplements. It is perplexing as to how many individuals apparently assume that because you've now purchased supplements that the argument is no longer applicable. ::)
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First of all, my point is that NO ONE really has any data on how these supps work or even if they really do...and the data thats out there on most stuff is really contradictory..some studies say this stuff works and some say it doesn't...I gave my opinion (just as many others did on this thread) and yes if you look back at the very beginning of the thread you will see that I had a very intelligent hypothesis about supplements..I discussed the placebo effect which is a legitimate phenomenon recognized by 100% of doctors and I also discussed ritualization in which we sometimes perform rituals in order to psych ourselves up to perfom a task....
I discussed this in terms of suicide bombers who perform rituals before their bombings (such as shaving their bodies...reading the Koran, and making goodbye video tapes to love ones) which psychs them up and lessens the chance that they would chicken out and increases the chance that they will perform the assigned task..and I compared this to how supp companies will often ask us to take their worthless junk as a means of getting us to work out more so as to injest more supps.....sort of like a psychological trick
......so I discussed the placebo effect, psychology of BB'ers, and ritualization....all pretty heavy stuff for serious discussion...I never claimed to be an expert, therefore I had no obligation to provide boring scientific articles which no one wants to read anywayjust to please you....and which actually would prove nothing since most "studies" are done by the supp industry themselves and are dubious at best....believe me if these supps actually worked, the government would be all over these companies big time to make them verify their claims...the government does not do this because basically they too believe that mostly SUPPLEMENTS ARE JUNK..so they don't bother
oh and just because most people on this forum take and use supps, doesn't mean they are worth a damn...many have been brainwashed into taking this stuff by Muscle-Tech's 6 page ads....you don't need supps to flourish in the gym...especially at the prices you pay for them....just eat...take a multi-vitamin...maybe some protein powder...and you will be just fine....a lot of people take these supps and don't really know for sure if it truly worked for them or not....how can you truly gauge in a scientific way???..it's all anecdotal evidence...which is not really scientific either since you INSIST someone's opinion about supps be backed by scientific evidence...
I was honest with you guys and admitted that I contradicted myself by going out and purchasing supps.....many guys on here are NOT honest and would not have posted info which contradicts their opinions....I did so due to the extremely low cost..$30.00 for two big 7lb jugs of creatine which would usually go for about $130-$140...
I won't descend into personal criticism of you like many on here do, nor will I put down any opinion thread which you may start since opinion threads are the reason we are here...just lighten up a bit and don't automatically reach for criticism just because I hurt your feelings...present your opinions and let the participants decide who sounds most reasonable
HOPE THIS REALLY HELPS YOU
There are a number of flaws with your arguments.
One, this has nothing to do with MuscleTech, as a number of people who train with weights were using supplements, long before MuscleTech ever existed. In fact, with regards to the creatine debate, I already mentioned my experience with creatine (and it was with an EAS product, not one from MuscleTech).
Two, you admitted that you've used Size-On and noticed results, while using that product. In fact, you compared the results you got with Size-On with the LACK of results from using Six Star's creatine product. If it were just a "placebo" thing, it wouldn't really have mattered which one you used.
Three, with regards to the government, apparently you've missed the various articles on supplement companies and consumers fighting with government agencies who want to regulate sports nutrition supplements. Why do you think Andro got yanked? Why do you think that a handful of politicians are trying to get DHEA (the one prohormone that was spared in 2004) off the shelves as well?
This ain't about supposed "brainwashing". It's about good old-fashioned trial-and-error. That's why creatine has withstood the test of time. It works in the real world with actual guys who train and lift on a regular basis. If you really believed your mantra of "just eat....take a multi-vitamin...maybe some protein powder...and you'll be just fine", you wouldn't have just purchased 14 lb. of Cell-Tech (in fact, didn't you recently state that I shouldn't buy NaNO Vapor or N.O. Fury, no matter how cheap it is?).
Good points you make.
This is still a legitimate thread--yes, even if you, andreisdaman, have now purchased a couple supplements. It shows good character that you can do that yet still admit they could be bullshit. I agree and I've done the same in the past. I've purchased supplements knowing that they may be no more than hype.
Nobody has disproven your original argument, certainly not yourself simply by purchasing supplements. It is perplexing as to how many individuals apparently assume that because you've now purchased supplements that the argument is no longer applicable. ::)
It's perplexing that someone would go to great lengths to criticize creatine, as being worthless, admonishing those who use it to "just eat", only to later purchase FOURTEEN POUNDS of Cell-Tech and (earlier) admit that's he's used other creatine products (Size-On) with good results.
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Good points you make.
This is still a legitimate thread--yes, even if you, andreisdaman, have now purchased a couple supplements. It shows good character that you can do that yet still admit they could be bullshit. I agree and I've done the same in the past. I've purchased supplements knowing that they may be no more than hype.
Nobody has disproven your original argument, certainly not yourself simply by purchasing supplements. It is perplexing as to how many individuals apparently assume that because you've now purchased supplements that the argument is no longer applicable. ::)
thanks soundness...excellent point...we sometimes WANT these supplements to work so bad that we will continue to purchase stuff that hasn't really worked well in the past...I bought some cell-tech years ago and it was awesome....worked to at least harden me up a bit and the water retention made me feel bigger psychologically......but at the time I was a first time user....then I kept buying but got no effects whatsoever, so I stopped......then about three years ago I bought some Size-On..it worked good as well..but the second time I purchased it..nothing..no efffects....so I stopped buying creatine and just worked out without it.,,and you know what??...my lifting loads actually INCREASED......I was actually stronger without the creatine...that's when I realized I had been chasing my tail by buying supps....didn't really need them, but was using them as a crutch thinking they would make me into a superman in the gym..(they didn't)...all I needed was some hard work and to stop eating like a bird.....and also to sleep more.....
I bought this recent batch of creatine because it was a deal I couldn't turn down, but like soundness stated, there is always that part of me that HOPES THE SUPPS WILL WORK THIS TIME....but at least now I understand that basically they probably won't....I won't have the disappointment of buying something and then feeling like an idiot when nothing extraordinary occurs....
for many years I ACTUALLY thought I would and could look like the guys in the magazines....I never realized I was being sold a dream by the supp companies and magazines which collude with the supp companies to peddle high priced junk...THE ONLY WAY TO LOOK LIKE THOSE GUYS IS WITH DRUGS..CLEAR AND SIMPLE AND NO BULLSHIT....ZMA, L-Carnitine, Leucine, Ribose, Glutamine, and all that other stuff is ALL NONSENSE WITH NOTHING TO BACK THEIR CLAIMS..again...if these supps really worked, the U.S. Government and the FDA would be in their offices tomorrow with subpoenas forcing these companies to prove their claims....the fact that goverment continues to basically ignore these supp companies speaks to how they feel about the junk these companies are peddling...the reason why the government got involved and banned ephedra is because IT ACTUALLY WORKED....
yes some people supposedly died from it, but this happens with any drug.....the government got involved because they realized that ephedra actually works and that people were out there taking it without supervison and they didn't want any more deaths from it....the stuff that doesn't work, the government ignores because they feel if you are stupid enough to buy junk that doesn't work, then thats your business...as long as it doesn't cause deaths which would make them look bad..then they won't get involved..and the supp industry KNOWS THIS which is why they have gotten away with conning people for so long
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Good points you make.
This is still a legitimate thread--yes, even if you, andreisdaman, have now purchased a couple supplements. It shows good character that you can do that yet still admit they could be bullshit. I agree and I've done the same in the past. I've purchased supplements knowing that they may be no more than hype.
Nobody has disproven your original argument[/u][/b], certainly not yourself simply by purchasing supplements. It is perplexing as to how many individuals apparently assume that because you've now purchased supplements that the argument is no longer applicable. ::)
thanks soundness...excellent point...we sometimes WANT these supplements to work so bad that we will continue to purchase stuff that hasn't really worked well in the past...I bought some cell-tech years ago and it was awesome....worked to at least harden me up a bit and the water retention made me feel bigger psychologically......but at the time I was a first time user....then I kept buying but got no effects whatsoever, so I stopped......then about three years ago I bought some Size-On..it worked good as well..but the second time I purchased it..nothing..no efffects....so I stopped buying creatine and just worked out without it.,,and you know what??...my lifting loads actually INCREASED......I was actually stronger without the creatine...that's when I realized I had been chasing my tail by buying supps....didn't really need them, but was using them as a crutch thinking they would make me into a superman in the gym..(they didn't)...all I needed was some hard work and to stop eating like a bird.....and also to sleep more.....
I bought this recent batch of creatine because it was a deal I couldn't turn down, but like soundness stated, there is always that part of me that HOPES THE SUPPS WILL WORK THIS TIME....but at least now I understand that basically they probably won't....I won't have the disappointment of buying something and then feeling like an idiot when nothing extraordinary occurs....
for many years I ACTUALLY thought I would and could look like the guys in the magazines....I never realized I was being sold a dream by the supp companies and magazines which collude with the supp companies to peddle high priced junk...THE ONLY WAY TO LOOK LIKE THOSE GUYS IS WITH DRUGS..CLEAR AND SIMPLE AND NO BULLSHIT....ZMA, L-Carnitine, Leucine, Ribose, Glutamine, and all that other stuff is ALL NONSENSE WITH NOTHING TO BACK THEIR CLAIMS..again...if these supps really worked, the U.S. Government and the FDA would be in their offices tomorrow with subpoenas forcing these companies to prove their claims....the fact that goverment continues to basically ignore these supp companies speaks to how they feel about the junk these companies are peddling...the reason why the government got involved and banned ephedra is because IT ACTUALLY WORKED....
yes some people supposedly died from it, but this happens with any drug.....the government got involved because they realized that ephedra actually works and that people were out there taking it without supervison and they didn't want any more deaths from it....the stuff that doesn't work, the government ignores because they feel if you are stupid enough to buy junk that doesn't work, then thats your business...as long as it doesn't cause deaths which would make them look bad..then they won't get involved..and the supp industry KNOWS THIS which is why they have gotten away with conning people for so long
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without criticizing you directly your statement that my thread should be deleted is ludicrous and without merit...just exactly what type of data should I provide for you, since there basically isn't much out there that is unbiased...I tell you what....next time I will just provide you with Muscle-Tech's 6 page ads as proof that supps work...maybe that will get you to calm down....since you so badly WANT TO BELIEVE that supps work so well....sorry I busted your bubble and destroyed your world by just simply stating an opinion that most supps are worthless and some are over-rated at best...just eat your ass off,take a multi-vitamin, take a little protein if you really have to, and sleep..you will be fine....I'm sure you are one of those who still believe that ZMA increases testosterone and will make you into a giant monster in the gym.
HOPE THIS HELPS YOU PRINCESS
And this is coming from the guy who states in another thread that he just got some cheap CELL-TECH from GNC. You're a contradictory joke bro.
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thanks soundness...excellent point...we sometimes WANT these supplements to work so bad that we will continue to purchase stuff that hasn't really worked well in the past...I bought some cell-tech years ago and it was awesome....worked to at least harden me up a bit and the water retention made me feel bigger psychologically......but at the time I was a first time user....then I kept buying but got no effects whatsoever, so I stopped......then about three years ago I bought some Size-On..it worked good as well..but the second time I purchased it..nothing..no efffects....so I stopped buying creatine and just worked out without it.,,and you know what??...my lifting loads actually INCREASED......I was actually stronger without the creatine...that's when I realized I had been chasing my tail by buying supps....didn't really need them, but was using them as a crutch thinking they would make me into a superman in the gym..(they didn't)...all I needed was some hard work and to stop eating like a bird.....and also to sleep more.....
Once again, your statements betray you. First, you state that people will continue to buy stuff that didn't really work for them in the past. Yet, you claimed that when you first bought CELL-TECH, it worked great. You then clarify that you were a first-time user, which almost mirrors what I said, when I mentioned my own experience with Phosphagen HP back in 1996.
To top it all off, you've basically proven a statement I made the last time someone talked about how worthless supplements are. Basically, your diet was absolute garbage (either you were eating the wrong foods or not enough of the right foods). Yet, you thought certain supplements would compensate for your lousy nutritional habits.
When that didn't occur (coupled, perhaps, with your running out of money), it forced you to get back to basics and do what you should have been doing from the start. Had you done the hard work, the proper diet, and used the supplements, your gains would have been far better.
Essentially, you're blaming the supplement industry and the products themselved for YOUR OWN SHORTCOMINGS.
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Once again, your statements betray you. First, you state that people will continue to buy stuff that didn't really work for them in the past. Yet, you claimed that when you first bought CELL-TECH, it worked great. You then clarify that you were a first-time user, which almost mirrors what I said, when I mentioned my own experience with Phosphagen HP back in 1996.
To top it all off, you've basically proven a statement I made the last time someone talked about how worthless supplements are. Basically, your diet was absolute garbage (either you were eating the wrong foods or not enough of the right foods). Yet, you thought certain supplements would compensate for your lousy nutritional habits.
When that didn't occur (coupled, perhaps, with your running out of money), it forced you to get back to basics and do what you should have been doing from the start. Had you done the hard work, the proper diet, and used the supplements, your gains would have been far better.
Essentially, you're blaming the supplement industry and the products themselved for YOUR OWN SHORTCOMINGS.
Boy you must really own a supplement company because you are flaming out really quick here...yes I am happy that I have backed up your claims about creatine..since we have both had the same experience..but you have also backed my assertion that creatine does not work the way it was supposed to and the way it has been advertised to...and it may be possible that it will only work as a one-shot thing.....since that has been both our shared experiences..a REAL supp SHOULD work as it is supposed to all the time.... just as a drug does....
you make a lot of assumptions here..such as my diet being lousy and me running out of money....yes my diet was not clean by bodybuilding standards (an absolute clean diet is difficult to achieve) but I am not a slob either...I did work hard in the gym but again...supps are not the answer to stuff like building muscle.....creatine is basically water retention..there isn't any muscle building going on....I have admitted to buying creatine again after not having it for three years due to the sale I got and due to the fact that I personally like the water retention effects of it....it makes me feel bigger and fuller and helps me psychologically..but I KNOW IT DOES NOTHING FOR MUSCLE.....so I am not buying it under false pretenses..like many on here are.....I know that I can just save my money and work out without the promise-filled costly junk
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Boy you must really own a supplement company because you are flaming out really quick here...yes I am happy that I have backed up your claims about creatine..since we have both had the same experience..but you have also backed my assertion that creatine does not work the way it was supposed to and the way it has been advertised to...and it may be possible that it will only work as a one-shot thing.....since that has been both our shared experiences..a REAL supp SHOULD work as it is supposed to all the time.... just as a drug does....
You guess wrong. I work for no supplement company (as much as I've been accused of being a rep for MuscleTech, simply for liking some of their products).
Creatine does work as advertised. Yes, I got the best results from loading initially. But, I've had fairly good results with it, at other periods of time. So, it's hardly a "one-shot thing".
And, if creatine does act like a "real drug", then that means, after a while, your body becomes accustomed to it, thereby reducing the dramatic effects.
you make a lot of assumptions here..such as my diet being lousy and me running out of money....yes my diet was not clean by bodybuilding standards (an absolute clean diet is difficult to achieve) but I am not a slob either...I did work hard in the gym but again...supps are not the answer to stuff like building muscle.....creatine is basically water retention..there isn't any muscle building going on....I have admitted to buying creatine again after not having it for three years due to the sale I got and due to the fact that I personally like the water retention effects of it....it makes me feel bigger and fuller and helps me psychologically..but I KNOW IT DOES NOTHING FOR MUSCLE.....so I am not buying it under false pretenses..like many on here are.....I know that I can just save my money and work out without the promise-filled costly junk
I didn't make the assumption that your diet was lousy. I stated it outright, based on YOUR OWN WORDS. You said it yourself that you needed "stop eating like a bird". As qualified by another statement of mine, you either were eating the wrong foods or NOT ENOUGH of the right foods. When it comes to building mass, quality and quantity of food are ESSENTIAL. And from your statement, the latter was missing from your nutritional regime.
As for creatine, it helps increase strength which, in turn, results in bigger muscles. That's why it's maintained its popularity over the last 15+ years, as a supplement du jour.
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We spend a lot of time on here talking about and debating the effectiveness of supplements....I am guilty of this as well....but the truth is that these supplements are all worthless in the long run and are created to empty our wallets of as much hard-earned cash as possible...
the advertising that goes into convincing us to buy these worthless and useless supplements is incredible.....even the drug companies don't spend on ads like muscletech....but thats because of the theory that the bigger the lie, the more people will believe it since no one would DARE tell such a big lie and risk being found out???
Supplements work only because we "will" them to work....the supplement companies tell us "take this everyday before your work out and your workout will be fantastic and you will get big pumps and better gains"....then they tell us "take this also after your workout and you will get bigger and stronger"...
basically what they are doing is getting you and I to perform a ritual....by performing a ritual before completing an act or action, it increases the likelihood that you will actually carry through and perform the action...
for example, suicide bombers carry out rituals before their missions..they recite the Koran and shave their bodies and make a video tape to their love-ones to let them know what they are about to do and how they are entering the kingdom of god and all this other crap....the planners make them perform these rituals because once someone has performed the ritual they brainwash themselves into performing the act and the planners know that in this way, the bombers will ACTUALLY go ahead with the bombing instead of chickening out at the last minute.
Same thing with the supp companies...we perform the ritual of taking these products before and after the workout because in our minds we think they will help us (the advertising has already warmed us up and put us in this frame of mind) ..then we go to the gym and push ourselves really hard because we want the supplement to work....In other words...we ourselves take these supps because by taking the supp it increases the likelihood that you will go ahead and work out instead of blowing off the gym for that day....and it increases the likelihood that you will focus and push yourself really hard in the gym because PSYCHOLOGICALLY YOU WANT THE SUPPLEMENTS TO WORK SO THAT YOU DON"T LOOK LIKE AN A-HOLE FOR BEING STUPID ENOUGH TO BUY SUCH A BOGUS RIP-OFF IN THE FIRST PLACE!
so because you have invested so much time and money in getting the supps, you have to hypnotize yourself into making them work....by working out more and working out harder.....and thats where the gains come in..if you are working out more and not blowing off the gym as much and you are working out much harder instead of coasting as we tend to do sometimes, then of course you will be HARDER< THICKER< STRONGER<BIGGER....theres no secret to it...I have made better gains and gotten stronger ONCE I STOPPED TAKING CREATINE...
so instead of using the supplements to make us have a better workout and better gains, we use the work out, and the better gains which come from them, to make us have a better supplement....Just eat, drink water and workout consistently and effectively and you will get stronger, thicker, and bigger...we spend time talking about supps because it is fun....but thats all we are really getting out of it..
Opinion is not fact. Sure, some supplements do virtually nothing. On the other hand, there is plenty of research to support certain supplements and they DO work.
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thanks soundness...excellent point...we sometimes WANT these supplements to work so bad that we will continue to purchase stuff that hasn't really worked well in the past...I bought some cell-tech years ago and it was awesome....worked to at least harden me up a bit and the water retention made me feel bigger psychologically......but at the time I was a first time user....then I kept buying but got no effects whatsoever, so I stopped......then about three years ago I bought some Size-On..it worked good as well..but the second time I purchased it..nothing..no efffects....so I stopped buying creatine and just worked out without it.,,and you know what??...my lifting loads actually INCREASED......I was actually stronger without the creatine...that's when I realized I had been chasing my tail by buying supps....didn't really need them, but was using them as a crutch thinking they would make me into a superman in the gym..(they didn't)...all I needed was some hard work and to stop eating like a bird.....and also to sleep more.....
I bought this recent batch of creatine because it was a deal I couldn't turn down, but like soundness stated, there is always that part of me that HOPES THE SUPPS WILL WORK THIS TIME....but at least now I understand that basically they probably won't....I won't have the disappointment of buying something and then feeling like an idiot when nothing extraordinary occurs....
for many years I ACTUALLY thought I would and could look like the guys in the magazines....I never realized I was being sold a dream by the supp companies and magazines which collude with the supp companies to peddle high priced junk...THE ONLY WAY TO LOOK LIKE THOSE GUYS IS WITH DRUGS..CLEAR AND SIMPLE AND NO BULLSHIT....ZMA, L-Carnitine, Leucine, Ribose, Glutamine, and all that other stuff is ALL NONSENSE WITH NOTHING TO BACK THEIR CLAIMS..again...if these supps really worked, the U.S. Government and the FDA would be in their offices tomorrow with subpoenas forcing these companies to prove their claims....the fact that goverment continues to basically ignore these supp companies speaks to how they feel about the junk these companies are peddling...the reason why the government got involved and banned ephedra is because IT ACTUALLY WORKED....
yes some people supposedly died from it, but this happens with any drug.....the government got involved because they realized that ephedra actually works and that people were out there taking it without supervison and they didn't want any more deaths from it....the stuff that doesn't work, the government ignores because they feel if you are stupid enough to buy junk that doesn't work, then thats your business...as long as it doesn't cause deaths which would make them look bad..then they won't get involved..and the supp industry KNOWS THIS which is why they have gotten away with conning people for so long
Take a good look at the "before" pictures in some of those ads. Notice something about them? The men involved ARE ALREADY BIG AND SWOLE!! The product being advertised may have helped them out a bit, but it was NOT the primary reason for their looking the way they do.
Also keep in mind that these bodybuilders that take supplements consume WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY more of these products than the average fellow. I had the same complaints you once had, regarding a popular supplement in the mid-90s, MET-Rx. Bodybuilders were swearing by this stuff; but when I tried it, nothing happened. I thought these guys were lying; but upon further review, it turned out that these guys were using MET-Rx and getting great results. But, the caveat was that they were taking at least EIGHT SERVINGS per day (That's a shade under 300 grams of protein), IN ADDITION TO their regular meals.
Since I obviously couldn't afford to do that (and didn't need that much protein, anyway), I figured the best thing to do was to figure out how much protein I needed and a more economical way to get it, which ended up being Weider's Super Mega Mass 2000.
The bodybuilders who use Nitro-Tech are likely drinking that stuff like Kool-Aid. Former MuscleTech guy, Jeramy Freeman, claimed he was taking 9 servings a day. And remember MuscleTech's initial guinea pig, Greg Kovacs? He was downing MuscleTech goodies in a manner that would require one to take a second mortgage on his home. That consumption included at least 4 servings of Meso-Tech (he even claimed to use the product unflavored, before it hit the market, which was quite bitter by his account). And, he did that to replace the 8 servings of MET-Rx he was drinking, prior to MuscleTech creating its MRP counterpart.
Once again, your words betray you. You were under the impression that taking certain supplements relieved you of the responsibility of making sure you diet was on point. Same thing goes for your training. You "ate like a bird" and coasted through some of your workouts, which means you aren't going to put on size, no matter which supplements you take. As you've found out the hard way, supplements DO NOT take the place of a high-quality and quantity diet. Nor, do they replace effort in the gym. They simply augment those things to help you glean better results.
So, it appears you're blaming the supplement companies for your laziness in the gym and lack of consistency on your diet.
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for one i dont have to disprove anyones argument, you have to prove your position.
Also there is tons of data on alot of supplements, virtually thousands of papers.... you should try reading some journals.
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Did you guys hear about the new study that was done that Arginine and nitric oxide have no affect on musclebuilding at all?....it was published in Muscular Development ...I will try to find the original paper on it......another supplement scam exposed!!!!!..how many tens of millions were spent on that one????
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I have a hard time getting excited about supplements. I just think you should eat whole foods and get plenty of rest.
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Did you guys hear about the new study that was done that Arginine and nitric oxide have no affect on musclebuilding at all?....it was published in Muscular Development ...I will try to find the original paper on it......another supplement scam exposed!!!!!..how many tens of millions were spent on that one????
arginine has effects on growth hormone.If you go by abstracts then you are doing it all wrong. Read the entire study, was it in vivo or vitro? rct? what was the power? what was the alpha level? what was the timeline and who where the subjects.
one false study doesnt disprove something, many pharmaceuticals have negative studies. In fact, they have to have a 60% success rate to be approved, many hover around this line, like SSRIS for example.
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arginine has effects on growth hormone.If you go by abstracts then you are doing it all wrong. Read the entire study, was it in vivo or vitro? rct? what was the power? what was the alpha level? what was the timeline and who where the subjects.
one false study doesnt disprove something, many pharmaceuticals have negative studies. In fact, they have to have a 60% success rate to be approved, many hover around this line, like SSRIS for example.
okay..I'll do some more research and get back to you..thanks
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I agree with you...I recently bought some stuff on clearance at GNC and it was a bargain....I got a big 7lb can of cell-tech for $20.00 and the manager gave me a second 7lb can for $10.00....got a can of ISOPURE pineapple/orange whey protein for $20.00 and got a huge can of Gaspari's MYOFUSION for 30% off at $42.00....this stuff will last me a very long time and it was all under $100.00....
I know I am contradicting myself since I started this thread as an anti-supp forum, but I guess what I have a major problem with is the COST of supps...not so much their usage....If you can buy supps at the prices I just mentioned then I can see reaching into your wallet..but the cost of some supps are super sky-high and basically you are paying for a placebo effect and performing a ritual.....for a dubious cost....
If supplements are useless why would you pay one penny for them, and then bother ingesting them?
Look, if you cant cut the mortgage or make your car payment every month than you shouldn't be buying supplements. There is obviously a demand for this stuff. Just let it be.
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Did you guys hear about the new study that was done that Arginine and nitric oxide have no affect on musclebuilding at all?....it was published in Muscular Development ...I will try to find the original paper on it......another supplement scam exposed!!!!!..how many tens of millions were spent on that one????
NO supplements have been around for years. And people have used them with good results, overall. At the end of the day, you can post all the studies you want about what supposedly does or doesn't work. The true test is real-world, in-the-trenches experiences that trainers and lifters have.
So far, NO supplements (i.e. NO-XPLODE, NanoX9, Nano Vapor, etc.) get an overall thumbs-up.
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NO supplements have been around for years. And people have used them with good results, overall. At the end of the day, you can post all the studies you want about what supposedly does or doesn't work. The true test is real-world, in-the-trenches experiences that trainers and lifters have.
So far, NO supplements (i.e. NO-XPLODE, NanoX9, Nano Vapor, etc.) get an overall thumbs-up.
okay...your point has some validity..but....if you and I had a supplement company and we put out sugar tablets as a placebo, we would still have guys swearing that they gained muscle and made gains on the stuff......in other words, real world experience isn't always accurate either....the most powerful supplement in the world is the human mind..if the mind believes that gains are being made, then gains will be made.....
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Just revisiting the thread to see if anyone out there is still using supplements and what are the effects?..are you having success?..or are they really all bullshit like I have suggested?
I haven't tried anything new except some protein powder....I am still finishing off that big jug of Gaspari's protein powder, and I have refused to buy any other supp because I still belive they are a waste of money...
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I just went back on creatine after being off for awhile.
The difference was noticeable.
Besides that, just whey protein and the occasional noxplode (which i think they're watering down.. doesn't seem to be like the original stuff).
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I just stay on protein powders and I leave it at that...I don't even read supplement ads any more....except if its a new Gaspari product , then I might look out of curiousity..other than that...I am happy I don't have to read Muscle-Tech's 6 page ads any more....I wonder how many people they are suckering in with those ads nowadays?....We all made them very rich