Author Topic: THE TOTAL ABSOLUTE NO - BULLSHIT TRUTH ABOUT SUPPLEMENTS  (Read 49787 times)

andreisdaman

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Re: THE TOTAL ABSOLUTE NO - BULLSHIT TRUTH ABOUT SUPPLEMENTS
« Reply #100 on: January 22, 2009, 05:16:06 AM »
That shouldn’t be an issue. There are protein powders that you can get for a economical price. For instance, Sam’s Club sells 5-lb bags of EAS 100% Whey Protein for about $30. Or, you can hit Wal-Mart and get Body Fortress Whey Protein for just under $14 for a (now) 2.2-lb jug or $33 for a 5-lb jug.

Plus, you can always hit Vitamin Shoppe or GNC and look for clearance sales. The best deals I’ve obtained there is when Vitamin Shoppe marked down jugs of HDT 5+1 Whey protein to $10 each (I think that brand has been discontinued; hence the reason for the ultra-low price); I ended up getting three of them.

Not to mention that, at one point, Vitamin Shoppe’s brand of whey protein, Whey Tech, went for $25 for a 5-lb jug. The price has jumped to $35 over the past year. But, even with whey prices skyrocketing, VS kept the price down for as long as they could.

Then, there's GNC. With a little patience, you can get some of their stuff on clearance, such as IsoPure's RTD for $1.17 (as I type this, I'm downing a Blue Raspberry one). And, GNC is now having, at least for the next month, a "Buy One; Get One 50% Off" on nearly every product from every single brand in the store.

A little bargain shopping and some patience and you should be able to get your protein powder, without taking out a second mortgage.  ;D

I agree with you...I recently bought some stuff on clearance at GNC and it was a bargain....I got a big 7lb can of cell-tech for $20.00 and the manager gave me a second 7lb can for $10.00....got a can of ISOPURE pineapple/orange whey protein for $20.00 and got a huge can of Gaspari's MYOFUSION for 30% off at $42.00....this stuff will last me a very long time and it was all under $100.00....

I know I am contradicting myself since I started this thread as an anti-supp forum, but I guess what I have a major problem with is the COST of supps...not so much their usage....If you can buy supps at the prices I just mentioned then I can see reaching into your wallet..but the cost of some supps are super sky-high and basically you are paying for a placebo effect and performing a ritual.....for a dubious cost....

Necrosis

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Re: THE TOTAL ABSOLUTE NO - BULLSHIT TRUTH ABOUT SUPPLEMENTS
« Reply #101 on: January 22, 2009, 09:09:15 AM »
I agree with you...I recently bought some stuff on clearance at GNC and it was a bargain....I got a big 7lb can of cell-tech for $20.00 and the manager gave me a second 7lb can for $10.00....got a can of ISOPURE pineapple/orange whey protein for $20.00 and got a huge can of Gaspari's MYOFUSION for 30% off at $42.00....this stuff will last me a very long time and it was all under $100.00....

I know I am contradicting myself since I started this thread as an anti-supp forum, but I guess what I have a major problem with is the COST of supps...not so much their usage....If you can buy supps at the prices I just mentioned then I can see reaching into your wallet..but the cost of some supps are super sky-high and basically you are paying for a placebo effect and performing a ritual.....for a dubious cost....

you dont have a sweet clue what you are talking about, and this thread is retarded. It is basically an opinion based thread with no sources for anything, on top of that you are self contradictory. This is a supplement forum if you want to bash supps at least do it intelligently as most on this forum use and take supplements.

coltrane

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Re: THE TOTAL ABSOLUTE NO - BULLSHIT TRUTH ABOUT SUPPLEMENTS
« Reply #102 on: January 22, 2009, 01:30:31 PM »
I agree.

And you gotta love the thread title...     as if there was some sort of data or info proving "THE TOTAL ABSOLUTE NO - BULLSHIT TRUTH ABOUT SUPPLEMENTS"

This thread should be deleted.

Necrosis

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Re: THE TOTAL ABSOLUTE NO - BULLSHIT TRUTH ABOUT SUPPLEMENTS
« Reply #103 on: January 22, 2009, 06:47:38 PM »
I agree.

And you gotta love the thread title...     as if there was some sort of data or info proving "THE TOTAL ABSOLUTE NO - BULLSHIT TRUTH ABOUT SUPPLEMENTS"

This thread should be deleted.

i was thinking that to, on top of that this guy seems to have no understanding of supplements at all making it even worse.

andreisdaman

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Re: THE TOTAL ABSOLUTE NO - BULLSHIT TRUTH ABOUT SUPPLEMENTS
« Reply #104 on: January 22, 2009, 07:48:44 PM »
you dont have a sweet clue what you are talking about, and this thread is retarded. It is basically an opinion based thread with no sources for anything, on top of that you are self contradictory. This is a supplement forum if you want to bash supps at least do it intelligently as most on this forum use and take supplements.

First of all, my point is that NO ONE really has any data on how these supps work or even if they really do...and the data thats out there on most stuff is really contradictory..some studies say this stuff works and some say it doesn't...I gave my opinion  (just as many others did on this thread) and yes if you look back at the very beginning of the thread you will see that I had a very intelligent hypothesis about supplements..I discussed the placebo effect which is a legitimate phenomenon recognized by 100% of doctors and I also discussed ritualization in which we sometimes perform rituals in order to psych ourselves up to perfom a task....

I discussed this in terms of suicide bombers who perform rituals before their bombings (such as shaving their bodies...reading the Koran, and making goodbye video tapes to love ones) which psychs them up and lessens the chance that they would chicken out and increases the chance that they will perform the assigned task..and I compared this to how supp companies will often ask us to take their worthless junk as a means of getting us to work out more so as to injest more supps.....sort of like a psychological trick

......so I discussed the placebo effect, psychology of BB'ers, and ritualization....all pretty heavy stuff for serious discussion...I never claimed to be an expert, therefore I had no obligation to provide boring scientific articles which no one wants to read anywayjust to please you....and which actually would prove nothing since most "studies" are done by the supp industry themselves and are dubious at best....believe me if these supps actually worked, the government would be all over these companies big time to make them verify their claims...the government does not do this because basically they too believe that mostly SUPPLEMENTS ARE JUNK..so they don't bother

oh and just because most people on this forum take and use supps, doesn't mean they are worth a damn...many have been brainwashed into taking this stuff by Muscle-Tech's 6 page ads....you don't need supps to flourish in the gym...especially at the prices you pay for them....just eat...take a multi-vitamin...maybe some protein powder...and you will be just fine....a lot of people take these supps and don't really know for sure if it truly worked for them or not....how can you truly gauge in a scientific way???..it's all anecdotal evidence...which is not really scientific either since you INSIST someone's opinion about supps be backed by scientific evidence...

I was honest with you guys and admitted that I contradicted myself by going out and purchasing supps.....many guys on here are NOT honest and would not have posted info which contradicts their opinions....I did so due to the extremely low cost..$30.00 for two big 7lb jugs of creatine which would usually go for about $130-$140...

I won't descend into personal criticism of you like many on here do, nor will I put down any opinion thread which you may start since opinion threads are the reason we are here...just lighten up a bit and don't automatically reach for criticism just because I hurt your feelings...present your opinions and let the participants decide who sounds most reasonable

HOPE THIS REALLY HELPS YOU
 

andreisdaman

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Re: THE TOTAL ABSOLUTE NO - BULLSHIT TRUTH ABOUT SUPPLEMENTS
« Reply #105 on: January 22, 2009, 08:02:02 PM »
I agree.

And you gotta love the thread title...     as if there was some sort of data or info proving "THE TOTAL ABSOLUTE NO - BULLSHIT TRUTH ABOUT SUPPLEMENTS"

This thread should be deleted.

without criticizing you directly your statement that my thread should be deleted is ludicrous and without merit...just exactly what type of data should I provide for you, since there basically isn't much out there that is unbiased...I tell you what....next time I will just provide you with Muscle-Tech's 6 page ads as proof that supps work...maybe that will get you to calm down....since you so badly WANT TO BELIEVE that supps work so well....sorry I busted your bubble and destroyed your world by just simply stating an opinion that most supps are worthless and some are over-rated at best...just eat your ass off,take a multi-vitamin, take a little protein if you really have to, and sleep..you will be fine....I'm sure you are one of those who still believe that ZMA increases testosterone and will make you into a giant monster in the gym.

HOPE THIS HELPS YOU PRINCESS

Soundness

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THE ARGUMENT STILL STANDS
« Reply #106 on: January 23, 2009, 12:14:07 AM »
First of all, my point is that NO ONE really has any data on how these supps work or even if they really do...and the data thats out there on most stuff is really contradictory..some studies say this stuff works and some say it doesn't...I gave my opinion  (just as many others did on this thread) and yes if you look back at the very beginning of the thread you will see that I had a very intelligent hypothesis about supplements..I discussed the placebo effect which is a legitimate phenomenon recognized by 100% of doctors and I also discussed ritualization in which we sometimes perform rituals in order to psych ourselves up to perfom a task....

I discussed this in terms of suicide bombers who perform rituals before their bombings (such as shaving their bodies...reading the Koran, and making goodbye video tapes to love ones) which psychs them up and lessens the chance that they would chicken out and increases the chance that they will perform the assigned task..and I compared this to how supp companies will often ask us to take their worthless junk as a means of getting us to work out more so as to injest more supps.....sort of like a psychological trick

......so I discussed the placebo effect, psychology of BB'ers, and ritualization....all pretty heavy stuff for serious discussion...I never claimed to be an expert, therefore I had no obligation to provide boring scientific articles which no one wants to read anywayjust to please you....and which actually would prove nothing since most "studies" are done by the supp industry themselves and are dubious at best....believe me if these supps actually worked, the government would be all over these companies big time to make them verify their claims...the government does not do this because basically they too believe that mostly SUPPLEMENTS ARE JUNK..so they don't bother

oh and just because most people on this forum take and use supps, doesn't mean they are worth a damn...many have been brainwashed into taking this stuff by Muscle-Tech's 6 page ads....you don't need supps to flourish in the gym...especially at the prices you pay for them....just eat...take a multi-vitamin...maybe some protein powder...and you will be just fine....a lot of people take these supps and don't really know for sure if it truly worked for them or not....how can you truly gauge in a scientific way???..it's all anecdotal evidence...which is not really scientific either since you INSIST someone's opinion about supps be backed by scientific evidence...

I was honest with you guys and admitted that I contradicted myself by going out and purchasing supps.....many guys on here are NOT honest and would not have posted info which contradicts their opinions....I did so due to the extremely low cost..$30.00 for two big 7lb jugs of creatine which would usually go for about $130-$140...

I won't descend into personal criticism of you like many on here do, nor will I put down any opinion thread which you may start since opinion threads are the reason we are here...just lighten up a bit and don't automatically reach for criticism just because I hurt your feelings...present your opinions and let the participants decide who sounds most reasonable

HOPE THIS REALLY HELPS YOU
 
Good points you make.

This is still a legitimate thread--yes, even if you, andreisdaman, have now purchased a couple supplements. It shows good character that you can do that yet still admit they could be bullshit. I agree and I've done the same in the past. I've purchased supplements knowing that they may be no more than hype.

Nobody has disproven your original argument, certainly not yourself simply by purchasing supplements. It is perplexing as to how many individuals apparently assume that because you've now purchased supplements that the argument is no longer applicable.  ::)


MCWAY

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Re: THE TOTAL ABSOLUTE NO - BULLSHIT TRUTH ABOUT SUPPLEMENTS
« Reply #107 on: January 23, 2009, 05:33:00 AM »
First of all, my point is that NO ONE really has any data on how these supps work or even if they really do...and the data thats out there on most stuff is really contradictory..some studies say this stuff works and some say it doesn't...I gave my opinion  (just as many others did on this thread) and yes if you look back at the very beginning of the thread you will see that I had a very intelligent hypothesis about supplements..I discussed the placebo effect which is a legitimate phenomenon recognized by 100% of doctors and I also discussed ritualization in which we sometimes perform rituals in order to psych ourselves up to perfom a task....

I discussed this in terms of suicide bombers who perform rituals before their bombings (such as shaving their bodies...reading the Koran, and making goodbye video tapes to love ones) which psychs them up and lessens the chance that they would chicken out and increases the chance that they will perform the assigned task..and I compared this to how supp companies will often ask us to take their worthless junk as a means of getting us to work out more so as to injest more supps.....sort of like a psychological trick

......so I discussed the placebo effect, psychology of BB'ers, and ritualization....all pretty heavy stuff for serious discussion...I never claimed to be an expert, therefore I had no obligation to provide boring scientific articles which no one wants to read anywayjust to please you....and which actually would prove nothing since most "studies" are done by the supp industry themselves and are dubious at best....believe me if these supps actually worked, the government would be all over these companies big time to make them verify their claims...the government does not do this because basically they too believe that mostly SUPPLEMENTS ARE JUNK..so they don't bother

oh and just because most people on this forum take and use supps, doesn't mean they are worth a damn...many have been brainwashed into taking this stuff by Muscle-Tech's 6 page ads....you don't need supps to flourish in the gym...especially at the prices you pay for them....just eat...take a multi-vitamin...maybe some protein powder...and you will be just fine....a lot of people take these supps and don't really know for sure if it truly worked for them or not....how can you truly gauge in a scientific way???..it's all anecdotal evidence...which is not really scientific either since you INSIST someone's opinion about supps be backed by scientific evidence...

I was honest with you guys and admitted that I contradicted myself by going out and purchasing supps.....many guys on here are NOT honest and would not have posted info which contradicts their opinions....I did so due to the extremely low cost..$30.00 for two big 7lb jugs of creatine which would usually go for about $130-$140...

I won't descend into personal criticism of you like many on here do, nor will I put down any opinion thread which you may start since opinion threads are the reason we are here...just lighten up a bit and don't automatically reach for criticism just because I hurt your feelings...present your opinions and let the participants decide who sounds most reasonable

HOPE THIS REALLY HELPS YOU
 

There are a number of flaws with your arguments.

One, this has nothing to do with MuscleTech, as a number of people who train with weights were using supplements, long before MuscleTech ever existed. In fact, with regards to the creatine debate,  I already mentioned my experience with creatine (and it was with an EAS product, not one from MuscleTech).

Two, you admitted that you've used Size-On and noticed results, while using that product. In fact, you compared the results you got with Size-On with the LACK of results from using Six Star's creatine product. If it were just a "placebo" thing, it wouldn't really have mattered which one you used.

Three, with regards to the government, apparently you've missed the various articles on supplement companies and consumers fighting with government agencies who want to regulate sports nutrition supplements. Why do you think Andro got yanked? Why do you think that a handful of politicians are trying to get DHEA (the one prohormone that was spared in 2004) off the shelves as well?

This ain't about supposed "brainwashing". It's about good old-fashioned trial-and-error. That's why creatine has withstood the test of time. It works in the real world with actual guys who train and lift on a regular basis. If you really believed your mantra of "just eat....take a multi-vitamin...maybe some protein powder...and you'll be just fine", you wouldn't have just purchased 14 lb. of Cell-Tech (in fact, didn't you recently state that I shouldn't buy NaNO Vapor or N.O. Fury, no matter how cheap it is?).

Good points you make.

This is still a legitimate thread--yes, even if you, andreisdaman, have now purchased a couple supplements. It shows good character that you can do that yet still admit they could be bullshit. I agree and I've done the same in the past. I've purchased supplements knowing that they may be no more than hype.

Nobody has disproven your original argument, certainly not yourself simply by purchasing supplements. It is perplexing as to how many individuals apparently assume that because you've now purchased supplements that the argument is no longer applicable.  ::)



It's perplexing that someone would go to great lengths to criticize creatine, as being worthless, admonishing those who use it to "just eat", only to later purchase FOURTEEN POUNDS of Cell-Tech and (earlier) admit that's he's used other creatine products (Size-On) with good results.





andreisdaman

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Re: THE ARGUMENT STILL STANDS
« Reply #108 on: January 23, 2009, 05:45:20 AM »
Good points you make.

This is still a legitimate thread--yes, even if you, andreisdaman, have now purchased a couple supplements. It shows good character that you can do that yet still admit they could be bullshit. I agree and I've done the same in the past. I've purchased supplements knowing that they may be no more than hype.

Nobody has disproven your original argument, certainly not yourself simply by purchasing supplements. It is perplexing as to how many individuals apparently assume that because you've now purchased supplements that the argument is no longer applicable.  ::)

thanks soundness...excellent point...we sometimes WANT these supplements to work so bad that we will continue to purchase stuff that hasn't really worked well in the past...I bought some cell-tech years ago and it was awesome....worked to at least harden me up a bit and the water retention made me feel bigger psychologically......but at the time I was a first time user....then I kept buying but got no effects whatsoever, so I stopped......then about three years ago I bought some Size-On..it worked good as well..but the second time I purchased it..nothing..no efffects....so I stopped buying creatine and just worked out without it.,,and you know what??...my lifting loads actually INCREASED......I was actually stronger without the creatine...that's when I realized I had been chasing my tail by buying supps....didn't really need them, but was using them as a crutch thinking they would make me into a superman in the gym..(they didn't)...all I needed was some hard work and to stop eating like a bird.....and also to sleep more.....

I bought this recent batch of creatine because it was a deal I couldn't turn down, but like soundness stated, there is always that part of me that HOPES THE SUPPS WILL WORK THIS TIME....but at least now I understand that basically they probably won't....I won't have the disappointment of buying something and then feeling like an idiot when nothing extraordinary occurs....

for many years I ACTUALLY thought I would and could look like the guys in the magazines....I never realized I was being sold a dream by the supp companies and magazines which collude with the supp companies to peddle high priced junk...THE ONLY WAY TO LOOK LIKE THOSE GUYS IS WITH DRUGS..CLEAR AND SIMPLE AND NO BULLSHIT....ZMA, L-Carnitine, Leucine, Ribose, Glutamine, and all that other stuff is ALL NONSENSE WITH NOTHING TO BACK THEIR CLAIMS..again...if these supps really worked, the U.S. Government  and the FDA would be in their offices tomorrow with subpoenas forcing these companies to prove their claims....the fact that goverment continues to basically ignore these supp companies speaks to how they feel about the junk these companies are peddling...the reason why the government got involved and banned ephedra is because IT ACTUALLY WORKED....

yes some people supposedly died from it, but this happens with any drug.....the government got involved because they realized that ephedra actually works and that people were out there taking it without supervison and they didn't want any more deaths from it....the stuff that doesn't work, the government ignores because they feel if you are stupid enough to buy junk that doesn't work, then thats your business...as long as it doesn't cause deaths which would make them look bad..then they won't get involved..and the supp industry KNOWS THIS which is why they have gotten away with conning people for so long



andreisdaman

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Re: THE ARGUMENT STILL STANDS
« Reply #109 on: January 23, 2009, 05:49:53 AM »
Good points you make.

This is still a legitimate thread--yes, even if you, andreisdaman, have now purchased a couple supplements. It shows good character that you can do that yet still admit they could be bullshit. I agree and I've done the same in the past. I've purchased supplements knowing that they may be no more than hype.

Nobody has disproven your original argument[/u][/b], certainly not yourself simply by purchasing supplements. It is perplexing as to how many individuals apparently assume that because you've now purchased supplements that the argument is no longer applicable.  ::)




thanks soundness...excellent point...we sometimes WANT these supplements to work so bad that we will continue to purchase stuff that hasn't really worked well in the past...I bought some cell-tech years ago and it was awesome....worked to at least harden me up a bit and the water retention made me feel bigger psychologically......but at the time I was a first time user....then I kept buying but got no effects whatsoever, so I stopped......then about three years ago I bought some Size-On..it worked good as well..but the second time I purchased it..nothing..no efffects....so I stopped buying creatine and just worked out without it.,,and you know what??...my lifting loads actually INCREASED......I was actually stronger without the creatine...that's when I realized I had been chasing my tail by buying supps....didn't really need them, but was using them as a crutch thinking they would make me into a superman in the gym..(they didn't)...all I needed was some hard work and to stop eating like a bird.....and also to sleep more.....

I bought this recent batch of creatine because it was a deal I couldn't turn down, but like soundness stated, there is always that part of me that HOPES THE SUPPS WILL WORK THIS TIME....but at least now I understand that basically they probably won't....I won't have the disappointment of buying something and then feeling like an idiot when nothing extraordinary occurs....

for many years I ACTUALLY thought I would and could look like the guys in the magazines....I never realized I was being sold a dream by the supp companies and magazines which collude with the supp companies to peddle high priced junk...THE ONLY WAY TO LOOK LIKE THOSE GUYS IS WITH DRUGS..CLEAR AND SIMPLE AND NO BULLSHIT....ZMA, L-Carnitine, Leucine, Ribose, Glutamine, and all that other stuff is ALL NONSENSE WITH NOTHING TO BACK THEIR CLAIMS..again...if these supps really worked, the U.S. Government  and the FDA would be in their offices tomorrow with subpoenas forcing these companies to prove their claims....the fact that goverment continues to basically ignore these supp companies speaks to how they feel about the junk these companies are peddling...the reason why the government got involved and banned ephedra is because IT ACTUALLY WORKED....

yes some people supposedly died from it, but this happens with any drug.....the government got involved because they realized that ephedra actually works and that people were out there taking it without supervison and they didn't want any more deaths from it....the stuff that doesn't work, the government ignores because they feel if you are stupid enough to buy junk that doesn't work, then thats your business...as long as it doesn't cause deaths which would make them look bad..then they won't get involved..and the supp industry KNOWS THIS which is why they have gotten away with conning people for so long



coltrane

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Re: THE TOTAL ABSOLUTE NO - BULLSHIT TRUTH ABOUT SUPPLEMENTS
« Reply #110 on: January 23, 2009, 06:21:25 AM »
without criticizing you directly your statement that my thread should be deleted is ludicrous and without merit...just exactly what type of data should I provide for you, since there basically isn't much out there that is unbiased...I tell you what....next time I will just provide you with Muscle-Tech's 6 page ads as proof that supps work...maybe that will get you to calm down....since you so badly WANT TO BELIEVE that supps work so well....sorry I busted your bubble and destroyed your world by just simply stating an opinion that most supps are worthless and some are over-rated at best...just eat your ass off,take a multi-vitamin, take a little protein if you really have to, and sleep..you will be fine....I'm sure you are one of those who still believe that ZMA increases testosterone and will make you into a giant monster in the gym.

HOPE THIS HELPS YOU PRINCESS

And this is coming from the guy who states in another thread that he just got some cheap CELL-TECH from GNC.      You're a contradictory joke bro. 

MCWAY

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Re: THE TOTAL ABSOLUTE NO - BULLSHIT TRUTH ABOUT SUPPLEMENTS
« Reply #111 on: January 23, 2009, 06:57:11 AM »

thanks soundness...excellent point...we sometimes WANT these supplements to work so bad that we will continue to purchase stuff that hasn't really worked well in the past...I bought some cell-tech years ago and it was awesome....worked to at least harden me up a bit and the water retention made me feel bigger psychologically......but at the time I was a first time user....then I kept buying but got no effects whatsoever, so I stopped......then about three years ago I bought some Size-On..it worked good as well..but the second time I purchased it..nothing..no efffects....so I stopped buying creatine and just worked out without it.,,and you know what??...my lifting loads actually INCREASED......I was actually stronger without the creatine...that's when I realized I had been chasing my tail by buying supps....didn't really need them, but was using them as a crutch thinking they would make me into a superman in the gym..(they didn't)...all I needed was some hard work and to stop eating like a bird.....and also to sleep more.....


Once again, your statements betray you. First, you state that people will continue to buy stuff that didn't really work for them in the past. Yet, you claimed that when you first bought CELL-TECH, it worked great. You then clarify that you were a first-time user, which almost mirrors what I said, when I mentioned my own experience with Phosphagen HP back in 1996.

To top it all off, you've basically proven a statement I made the last time someone talked about how worthless supplements are. Basically, your diet was absolute garbage (either you were eating the wrong foods or not enough of the right foods). Yet, you thought certain supplements would compensate for your lousy nutritional habits.

When that didn't occur (coupled, perhaps, with your running out of money), it forced you to get back to basics and do what you should have been doing from the start. Had you done the hard work, the proper diet, and used the supplements, your gains would have been far better.

Essentially, you're blaming the supplement industry and the products themselved for YOUR OWN SHORTCOMINGS.


andreisdaman

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Re: THE TOTAL ABSOLUTE NO - BULLSHIT TRUTH ABOUT SUPPLEMENTS
« Reply #112 on: January 23, 2009, 10:04:59 AM »
Once again, your statements betray you. First, you state that people will continue to buy stuff that didn't really work for them in the past. Yet, you claimed that when you first bought CELL-TECH, it worked great. You then clarify that you were a first-time user, which almost mirrors what I said, when I mentioned my own experience with Phosphagen HP back in 1996.

To top it all off, you've basically proven a statement I made the last time someone talked about how worthless supplements are. Basically, your diet was absolute garbage (either you were eating the wrong foods or not enough of the right foods). Yet, you thought certain supplements would compensate for your lousy nutritional habits.

When that didn't occur (coupled, perhaps, with your running out of money), it forced you to get back to basics and do what you should have been doing from the start. Had you done the hard work, the proper diet, and used the supplements, your gains would have been far better.

Essentially, you're blaming the supplement industry and the products themselved for YOUR OWN SHORTCOMINGS.



Boy you must really own a supplement company because you are flaming out really quick here...yes I am happy that I have backed up your claims about creatine..since we have both had the same experience..but you have also backed my assertion that creatine does not work the way it was supposed to and the way it has been advertised to...and it may be possible that it will only work as a one-shot thing.....since that has been both our shared experiences..a REAL supp SHOULD work as it is supposed to all the time.... just as a drug does....

you make a lot of assumptions here..such as my diet being lousy and me running out of money....yes my diet was not clean by bodybuilding standards (an absolute clean diet is difficult to achieve) but I am not a slob either...I did work hard in the gym but again...supps are not the answer to stuff like building muscle.....creatine is basically water retention..there isn't any muscle building going on....I have admitted to buying creatine again after not having it for three years due to the sale I got and due to the fact that I personally like the water retention effects of it....it makes me feel bigger and fuller and helps me psychologically..but I KNOW IT DOES NOTHING FOR MUSCLE.....so I am not buying it under false pretenses..like many on here are.....I know that I can just save my money and work out without the promise-filled costly junk

MCWAY

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Re: THE TOTAL ABSOLUTE NO - BULLSHIT TRUTH ABOUT SUPPLEMENTS
« Reply #113 on: January 23, 2009, 10:58:32 AM »
Boy you must really own a supplement company because you are flaming out really quick here...yes I am happy that I have backed up your claims about creatine..since we have both had the same experience..but you have also backed my assertion that creatine does not work the way it was supposed to and the way it has been advertised to...and it may be possible that it will only work as a one-shot thing.....since that has been both our shared experiences..a REAL supp SHOULD work as it is supposed to all the time.... just as a drug does....

You guess wrong. I work for no supplement company (as much as I've been accused of being a rep for MuscleTech, simply for liking some of their products).

Creatine does work as advertised. Yes, I got the best results from loading initially. But, I've had fairly good results with it, at other periods of time. So, it's hardly a "one-shot thing".

And, if creatine does act like a "real drug", then that means, after a while, your body becomes accustomed to it, thereby reducing the dramatic effects.





you make a lot of assumptions here..such as my diet being lousy and me running out of money....yes my diet was not clean by bodybuilding standards (an absolute clean diet is difficult to achieve) but I am not a slob either...I did work hard in the gym but again...supps are not the answer to stuff like building muscle.....creatine is basically water retention..there isn't any muscle building going on....I have admitted to buying creatine again after not having it for three years due to the sale I got and due to the fact that I personally like the water retention effects of it....it makes me feel bigger and fuller and helps me psychologically..but I KNOW IT DOES NOTHING FOR MUSCLE.....so I am not buying it under false pretenses..like many on here are.....I know that I can just save my money and work out without the promise-filled costly junk

I didn't make the assumption that your diet was lousy. I stated it outright, based on YOUR OWN WORDS. You said it yourself that you needed "stop eating like a bird". As qualified by another statement of mine, you either were eating the wrong foods or NOT ENOUGH of the right foods. When it comes to building mass, quality and quantity of food are ESSENTIAL. And from your statement, the latter was missing from your nutritional regime.

As for creatine, it helps increase strength which, in turn, results in bigger muscles. That's why it's maintained its popularity over the last 15+ years, as a supplement du jour.


chris_mason

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Re: THE TOTAL ABSOLUTE NO - BULLSHIT TRUTH ABOUT SUPPLEMENTS
« Reply #114 on: January 23, 2009, 08:29:14 PM »
We spend a lot of time on here talking about and debating the effectiveness of supplements....I am guilty of this as well....but the truth is that these supplements are all worthless in the long run and are created to empty our wallets of as much hard-earned cash as possible...

the advertising that goes into convincing us to buy these worthless and useless supplements is incredible.....even the drug companies don't spend on ads like muscletech....but thats because of the theory that the bigger the lie, the more people will believe it since no one would DARE tell such a big lie and risk being found out???

Supplements work only because we "will" them to work....the supplement companies tell us "take this everyday before your work out and your workout will be fantastic and you will get big pumps and better gains"....then they tell us "take this also after your workout and you will get bigger and stronger"...

basically what they are doing is getting you and I to perform a ritual....by performing a ritual before completing an act or action, it increases the likelihood that you will actually carry through and perform the action...

for example, suicide bombers carry out rituals before their missions..they recite the Koran and shave their bodies and make a video tape to their love-ones to let them know what they are about to do and how they are entering the kingdom of god and all this other crap....the planners make them perform these rituals because once someone has performed the ritual they brainwash themselves into performing the act and the planners know that in this way, the bombers will ACTUALLY go ahead with the bombing instead of chickening out at the last minute.

Same thing with the supp companies...we perform the ritual of taking these products before and after the workout because in our minds we think they will help us (the advertising has already warmed us up and put us in this frame of mind) ..then we go to the gym and push ourselves really hard because we want the supplement to work....In other words...we ourselves take these supps because by taking the supp it increases the likelihood that you will go ahead and work out instead of blowing off the gym for that day....and it increases the likelihood that you will focus and push yourself really hard in the gym because PSYCHOLOGICALLY YOU WANT THE SUPPLEMENTS TO WORK SO THAT YOU DON"T LOOK LIKE AN A-HOLE FOR BEING STUPID ENOUGH TO BUY SUCH A BOGUS RIP-OFF IN THE FIRST PLACE!

so because you have invested so much time and money in getting the supps, you have to hypnotize yourself into making them work....by working out more and working out harder.....and thats where the gains come in..if you are working out more and not blowing off the gym as much and you are working out much harder instead of coasting as we tend to do sometimes, then of course you will be HARDER< THICKER< STRONGER<BIGGER....theres no secret to it...I have made better gains and gotten stronger ONCE I STOPPED TAKING CREATINE...

so instead of using the supplements to make us have a better workout and better gains, we use the work out, and the better gains which come from them, to make us have a better supplement....Just eat, drink water and workout consistently and effectively and you will get stronger, thicker, and bigger...we spend time talking about supps because it is fun....but thats all we are really getting out of it..





Opinion is not fact.  Sure, some supplements do virtually nothing.  On the other hand, there is plenty of research to support certain supplements and they DO work.
w

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Re: THE ARGUMENT STILL STANDS
« Reply #115 on: January 24, 2009, 04:43:59 AM »
thanks soundness...excellent point...we sometimes WANT these supplements to work so bad that we will continue to purchase stuff that hasn't really worked well in the past...I bought some cell-tech years ago and it was awesome....worked to at least harden me up a bit and the water retention made me feel bigger psychologically......but at the time I was a first time user....then I kept buying but got no effects whatsoever, so I stopped......then about three years ago I bought some Size-On..it worked good as well..but the second time I purchased it..nothing..no efffects....so I stopped buying creatine and just worked out without it.,,and you know what??...my lifting loads actually INCREASED......I was actually stronger without the creatine...that's when I realized I had been chasing my tail by buying supps....didn't really need them, but was using them as a crutch thinking they would make me into a superman in the gym..(they didn't)...all I needed was some hard work and to stop eating like a bird.....and also to sleep more.....

I bought this recent batch of creatine because it was a deal I couldn't turn down, but like soundness stated, there is always that part of me that HOPES THE SUPPS WILL WORK THIS TIME....but at least now I understand that basically they probably won't....I won't have the disappointment of buying something and then feeling like an idiot when nothing extraordinary occurs....

for many years I ACTUALLY thought I would and could look like the guys in the magazines....I never realized I was being sold a dream by the supp companies and magazines which collude with the supp companies to peddle high priced junk...THE ONLY WAY TO LOOK LIKE THOSE GUYS IS WITH DRUGS..CLEAR AND SIMPLE AND NO BULLSHIT....ZMA, L-Carnitine, Leucine, Ribose, Glutamine, and all that other stuff is ALL NONSENSE WITH NOTHING TO BACK THEIR CLAIMS..again...if these supps really worked, the U.S. Government  and the FDA would be in their offices tomorrow with subpoenas forcing these companies to prove their claims....the fact that goverment continues to basically ignore these supp companies speaks to how they feel about the junk these companies are peddling...the reason why the government got involved and banned ephedra is because IT ACTUALLY WORKED....

yes some people supposedly died from it, but this happens with any drug.....the government got involved because they realized that ephedra actually works and that people were out there taking it without supervison and they didn't want any more deaths from it....the stuff that doesn't work, the government ignores because they feel if you are stupid enough to buy junk that doesn't work, then thats your business...as long as it doesn't cause deaths which would make them look bad..then they won't get involved..and the supp industry KNOWS THIS which is why they have gotten away with conning people for so long


Take a good look at the "before" pictures in some of those ads. Notice something about them? The men involved ARE ALREADY BIG AND SWOLE!! The product being advertised may have helped them out a bit, but it was NOT the primary reason for their looking the way they do.

Also keep in mind that these bodybuilders that take supplements consume WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY more of these products than the average fellow. I had the same complaints you once had, regarding a popular supplement in the mid-90s, MET-Rx. Bodybuilders were swearing by this stuff; but when I tried it, nothing happened. I thought these guys were lying; but upon further review, it turned out that these guys were using MET-Rx and getting great results. But, the caveat was that they were taking at least EIGHT SERVINGS per day (That's a shade under 300 grams of protein), IN ADDITION TO their regular meals.

Since I obviously couldn't afford to do that (and didn't need that much protein, anyway), I figured the best thing to do was to figure out how much protein I needed and a more economical way to get it, which ended up being Weider's Super Mega Mass 2000.

The bodybuilders who use Nitro-Tech are likely drinking that stuff like Kool-Aid. Former MuscleTech guy, Jeramy Freeman, claimed he was taking 9 servings a day. And remember MuscleTech's initial guinea pig, Greg Kovacs? He was downing MuscleTech goodies in a manner that would require one to take a second mortgage on his home. That consumption included at least 4 servings of Meso-Tech (he even claimed to use the product unflavored, before it hit the market, which was quite bitter by his account). And, he did that to replace the 8 servings of MET-Rx he was drinking, prior to MuscleTech creating its MRP counterpart.

Once again, your words betray you. You were under the impression that taking certain supplements relieved you of the responsibility of making sure you diet was on point. Same thing goes for your training. You "ate like a bird" and coasted through some of your workouts, which means you aren't going to put on size, no matter which supplements you take. As you've found out the hard way, supplements DO NOT take the place of a high-quality and quantity diet. Nor, do they replace effort in the gym. They simply augment those things to help you glean better results.

So, it appears you're blaming the supplement companies for your laziness in the gym and lack of consistency on your diet.


Necrosis

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Re: THE TOTAL ABSOLUTE NO - BULLSHIT TRUTH ABOUT SUPPLEMENTS
« Reply #116 on: January 24, 2009, 11:33:53 AM »
for one i dont have to disprove anyones argument, you have to prove your position.

Also there is tons of data on alot of supplements, virtually thousands of papers.... you should try reading some journals.

andreisdaman

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Re: THE TOTAL ABSOLUTE NO - BULLSHIT TRUTH ABOUT SUPPLEMENTS
« Reply #117 on: March 19, 2009, 02:35:08 PM »
Did you guys hear about the new study that was done that Arginine and nitric oxide have no affect on musclebuilding at all?....it was published in Muscular Development ...I will try to find the original paper on it......another supplement scam exposed!!!!!..how many tens of millions were spent on that one????

wild willie

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Re: THE TOTAL ABSOLUTE NO - BULLSHIT TRUTH ABOUT SUPPLEMENTS
« Reply #118 on: March 20, 2009, 07:50:44 AM »
I have a hard time getting excited about supplements. I just think you should eat whole foods and get plenty of rest.

Necrosis

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Re: THE TOTAL ABSOLUTE NO - BULLSHIT TRUTH ABOUT SUPPLEMENTS
« Reply #119 on: March 20, 2009, 09:02:04 AM »
Did you guys hear about the new study that was done that Arginine and nitric oxide have no affect on musclebuilding at all?....it was published in Muscular Development ...I will try to find the original paper on it......another supplement scam exposed!!!!!..how many tens of millions were spent on that one????

arginine has effects on growth hormone.If you go by abstracts then you are doing it all wrong. Read the entire study, was it in vivo or vitro? rct? what was the power? what was the alpha level? what was the timeline and who where the subjects.

one false study doesnt disprove something, many pharmaceuticals have negative studies. In fact, they have to have a 60% success rate to be approved, many hover around this line, like SSRIS for example.

andreisdaman

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Re: THE TOTAL ABSOLUTE NO - BULLSHIT TRUTH ABOUT SUPPLEMENTS
« Reply #120 on: March 20, 2009, 09:45:24 AM »
arginine has effects on growth hormone.If you go by abstracts then you are doing it all wrong. Read the entire study, was it in vivo or vitro? rct? what was the power? what was the alpha level? what was the timeline and who where the subjects.

one false study doesnt disprove something, many pharmaceuticals have negative studies. In fact, they have to have a 60% success rate to be approved, many hover around this line, like SSRIS for example.

okay..I'll do some more research and get back to you..thanks

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Re: THE TOTAL ABSOLUTE NO - BULLSHIT TRUTH ABOUT SUPPLEMENTS
« Reply #121 on: March 20, 2009, 12:14:13 PM »
I agree with you...I recently bought some stuff on clearance at GNC and it was a bargain....I got a big 7lb can of cell-tech for $20.00 and the manager gave me a second 7lb can for $10.00....got a can of ISOPURE pineapple/orange whey protein for $20.00 and got a huge can of Gaspari's MYOFUSION for 30% off at $42.00....this stuff will last me a very long time and it was all under $100.00....

I know I am contradicting myself since I started this thread as an anti-supp forum, but I guess what I have a major problem with is the COST of supps...not so much their usage....If you can buy supps at the prices I just mentioned then I can see reaching into your wallet..but the cost of some supps are super sky-high and basically you are paying for a placebo effect and performing a ritual.....for a dubious cost....

If supplements are useless why would you pay one penny for them, and then bother ingesting them?

Look, if you cant cut the mortgage or make your car payment every month than you shouldn't be buying supplements.  There is obviously a demand for this stuff.  Just let it be.

MCWAY

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Re: THE TOTAL ABSOLUTE NO - BULLSHIT TRUTH ABOUT SUPPLEMENTS
« Reply #122 on: March 20, 2009, 12:55:44 PM »
Did you guys hear about the new study that was done that Arginine and nitric oxide have no affect on musclebuilding at all?....it was published in Muscular Development ...I will try to find the original paper on it......another supplement scam exposed!!!!!..how many tens of millions were spent on that one????

NO supplements have been around for years. And people have used them with good results, overall. At the end of the day, you can post all the studies you want about what supposedly does or doesn't work. The true test is real-world, in-the-trenches experiences that trainers and lifters have.

So far, NO supplements (i.e. NO-XPLODE, NanoX9, Nano Vapor, etc.) get an overall thumbs-up.

andreisdaman

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Re: THE TOTAL ABSOLUTE NO - BULLSHIT TRUTH ABOUT SUPPLEMENTS
« Reply #123 on: March 20, 2009, 04:02:30 PM »
NO supplements have been around for years. And people have used them with good results, overall. At the end of the day, you can post all the studies you want about what supposedly does or doesn't work. The true test is real-world, in-the-trenches experiences that trainers and lifters have.

So far, NO supplements (i.e. NO-XPLODE, NanoX9, Nano Vapor, etc.) get an overall thumbs-up.

okay...your point has some validity..but....if you and I had a supplement company and we put out sugar tablets as a placebo, we would still have guys swearing that they gained muscle and made gains on the stuff......in other words, real world experience isn't always accurate either....the most powerful supplement in the world is the human mind..if the mind believes that gains are being made, then gains will be made.....

andreisdaman

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Re: THE TOTAL ABSOLUTE NO - BULLSHIT TRUTH ABOUT SUPPLEMENTS
« Reply #124 on: August 24, 2010, 02:56:17 PM »
Just revisiting the thread to see if anyone out there is still using supplements and what are the effects?..are you having success?..or are they really all bullshit like I have suggested?

I haven't tried anything new except some protein powder....I am still finishing off that big jug of Gaspari's protein powder, and I have refused to buy any other supp because I still belive they are a waste of money...