Getbig.com: American Bodybuilding, Fitness and Figure
Getbig Bodybuilding Boards => Steroids Info & Hardcore => Topic started by: Fatpanda on February 21, 2009, 04:43:13 AM
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I came across this study last night and thought some here might find it interesting.
Effects of nandrolone decanoate compared with placebo or testosterone on HIV-associated wasting.Gold J, Batterham MJ, Rekers H, Harms MK, Geurts TB, Helmyr PM, Silva de Mendonça J, Falleiros Carvalho LH, Panos G, Pinchera A, Aiuti F, Lee C, Horban A, Gatell J, Phanuphak P, Prasithsirikul W, Gazzard B, Bloch M, Danner SA; E-1696 Study Investigators.
The Albion Street Centre, Surry Hills, NSW, Australia.
Objectives Current research is unclear about the most effective pharmacological agents for managing the loss of weight and fat-free mass common in HIV/AIDS. The aim of this study was to compare nandrolone decanoate with placebo and testosterone. Methods The study was a multicentre randomized double-blind placebo-controlled trial. Three hundred and three adult HIV-positive male patients with a weight loss of 5-15% in the last 12 months, or a body mass index of 17-19 kg/m(2), or a body cell mass/height ratio lower than 13.5 kg/m, were randomly assigned to receive nandrolone decanoate (150 mg), testosterone (250 mg) or placebo intramuscularly every 2 weeks for 12 weeks. Fat-free mass, weight, immune markers and perception of treatment were the main outcome measures. Results Treatment with nandrolone resulted in significantly greater increases in fat-free mass [mean increase 1.34 kg; 95% confidence interval (CI) 0.60; 2.08 kg] and in weight (mean increase 1.48 kg; 95% CI 0.82; 2.14 kg) compared with placebo. The mean increase in weight with nandrolone of 1.00 kg (95% CI 0.27; 1.74 kg) when compared with testosterone was significant, although the difference in fat free mass did not reach significance (mean increase 0.69 kg; 95% CI-0.13; 1.51 kg). Patient perception of benefit was significantly greater in the nandrolone group when compared with both the placebo and the testosterone groups. Conclusions Treatment with nandrolone decanoate increased body weight when compared with placebo and testosterone. Nandrolone decanoate treatment resulted in greater increases in fat-free mass than placebo and demonstrated a trend for a significant increase when compared with testosterone.
ful paper can be downoaded here: http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/fulltext/118567688/PDFSTART
:o
how'd you like dem apples?
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Candi will be happy..hes a starter for teh AIDS ;D
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i saw this study. It's a little surprising. In the past i have been very down on deca, but i've found a new friend in NPP. ;D
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How does this compare/transfer to weight training bodybuilders/athletes that dont have an immune/wasting disease?
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well, to be honest, the difference between nandrolone and Test was a "trend" that did not reach significance. This is better than broexperience in terms of a bona fide difference between the two. However, because it's not significant, i wouldn't run out and make that general assertion.
The second problem is that the exclusion criteria include those involved in resistance training. In other words, no training, such that the muscle gained was purely from Test and nandrolone.
Lastly, i have seen 2x2 clinicals wherein they examine androgen (Test), placebo, androgen plus resisitance training (rt), and placebo plus rt. Startlingly enough, some of these studies dont show any interaction between rt and androgens. In other words, they are independent. This is with eugonadal healthy hiv patients. On the other hand, at least one study with stanozolol suggests rt is required for growth.
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although the results of this study only show 1lb of difference over the 12 weeks, the deca dose was smaller by 100mg in each shot - so mg for mg is appears to be stronger for mass gains.
a longer study would have been nice, along with rt, but we can but hope...............
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Also the benefits extend to causing Deca dick, which results in the fact these guys won't be spreading their virus as easily as they would with testosterone.
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Kind of old but still interesting:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1958561
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Also the benefits extend to causing Deca dick, which results in the fact these guys won't be spreading their virus as easily as they would with testosterone.
hahahahaha
Kind of old but still interesting:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1958561
another piece of the puzzle :)
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Doesn't surprise me.
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Didn't they either stop producing or administering deca for aids patients a couple of years back? We had a family friend who used deca for aids and he showed me a newspaper clipping about it.
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same thing with the 100mg adrol vs 150mg adrol.... have to wonder how it would differ if it were in healthy men, already with large mnuscles, weight trianing, good diet...etc
these aids patients probably eat 1500cals a day, basically no protein ( less than or equal to 100g per day), no weight training, already far below normal muscle mass levels... etc etc
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Also the benefits extend to causing Deca dick, which results in the fact these guys won't be spreading their virus as easily as they would with testosterone.
lol ;D
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same thing with the 100mg adrol vs 150mg adrol.... have to wonder how it would differ if it were in healthy men, already with large mnuscles, weight trianing, good diet...etc
these aids patients probably eat 1500cals a day, basically no protein ( less than or equal to 100g per day), no weight training, already far below normal muscle mass levels... etc etc
as before, your logic is flawed.
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as before, your logic is flawed.
what logic?
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what logic?
exactly.
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Kind of old but still interesting:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1958561
i will have to take a look at this work. It looks interesting.
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exactly.
theres no logic involved in pointing out that theres a difference between hiv patients and experienced bodybuilders
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theres no logic involved in pointing out that theres a difference between hiv patients and experienced bodybuilders
I agree with Candis no logic ;D
Hence why I asked this above.
How does this compare/transfer to weight training bodybuilders/athletes that dont have an immune/wasting disease?
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theres no logic involved in pointing out that theres a difference between hiv patients and experienced bodybuilders
no - theres no logic is assuming that a steroid that works in a patient with a muscle wasting disease like HIV would not work in healthy subjects.
if anything logic would dictate that the steroid should work better in a healthy individual.
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no - theres no logic is assuming that a steroid that works in a patient with a muscle wasting disease like HIV would not work in healthy subjects.
if anything logic would dictate that the steroid should work better in a healthy individual.
i dont doubt that deca would work in healthy subjects. im just wondering how the study would look if it was done on hard training bodybuilders with past gear use and a high protein/high calorie diet.
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as before, your logic is flawed.
you guys are too hard on Dizzle, he has a lot of good theories IMO.
I might not agree with all of them but a lot of those make sense
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you guys are too hard on Dizzle, he has a lot of good theories IMO.
I might not agree with all of them but a lot of those make sense
x2
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you guys are too hard on Dizzle, he has a lot of good theories IMO.
I might not agree with all of them but a lot of those make sense
The problem most people have with Tbombz is the fact that he acts like an experienced vet, when he basically knows nothing except what his feeble mind can conquer on google.com, then wants to give advice to others based on such....
The guys doesn't even use AAS, but has "theories"?
Based on what?
His ideas lack proper follow-through and "big picture" adaptation, which is why I laugh at most of his posts.
Most people aren't hard on him, they're just pointing out the fallacies in this "ideas".
The vets on this forum don't even pay attention to this guy anymore.......and alot of his posts are deleted so many of you never even see them.
how'd you like dem apples?
Pandapet, you furry bastard. >:(
We already knew that Deca was the standard for AIDS patients in terms of wasting related illnesses, more so than Testosterone.
It's been that way for years.
I would shave your fur if I could for this. :-X
i saw this study. It's a little surprising. In the past i have been very down on deca, but i've found a new friend in NPP. ;D
Why surprising, Pangloss?
It's been widely publicized that most AIDS patients have been receiving Deca for awhile now.
I think Deca has some of the most suppressive sides of any anabolics out there, at least in my experience.
When I run a Deca cycle, I'm almost counting down the days until I lose the ability for sexual function.
Goodbye libido...... :-X
Deca needs to be back on your offical shit-list, Dr. Pangloss. >:(
DIV
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it's only surprising that deca trends toward being better than test. For one, deca is very syppressive. I would expect that limit its efficacy.
And, mostly those anabolic/androgenic indeces mean nothing in terms of comparative growth. For instance stanazolol results in no gains without training, apparently. So i had discounted my expectations for deca as compared to Test.
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it's only surprising that deca trends toward being better than test. For one, deca is very syppressive. I would expect that limit its efficacy.
And, mostly those anabolic/androgenic indeces mean nothing in terms of comparative growth. For instance stanazolol results in no gains without training, apparently. So i had discounted my expectations for deca as compared to Test.
Deca will build lean mass even without training.........that's what it's meant for, why it's prescribed for wasting.
Tren, being of the same basic metabolite will do the same thing and does, which is why it's used for feed cattle.
DIV
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Pandapet, you furry bastard. >:(
We already knew that Deca was the standard for AIDS patients in terms of wasting related illnesses, more so than Testosterone.
It's been that way for years.
I would shave your fur if I could for this. :-X
:o :'(
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it's only surprising that deca trends toward being better than test. For one, deca is very syppressive. I would expect that limit its efficacy.
And, mostly those anabolic/androgenic indeces mean nothing in terms of comparative growth. For instance stanazolol results in no gains without training, apparently. So i had discounted my expectations for deca as compared to Test.
Decca is very suppressive yes, but the suppression can be counteracted using HCG while on cycle. Correct?
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The guys doesn't even use AAS, but has "theories"?
DIV
okay division.... you have been harrassing me by saying ive never used any AAS.... lol, ill bite ;D
do you want to compare who has more experience with various AAS and doseages ? and since this is just a steroid board, how about we compare experience with any and every type of bodybuilding/powerlifting drug ? :)
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Decca is very suppressive yes, but the suppression can be counteracted using HCG while on cycle. Correct?
Not the sexual suppression.
HCG might keep your nuts producing, but it won't necessarily maintain your libido.
DIV
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Not the sexual suppression.
HCG might keep your nuts producing, but it won't necessarily maintain your libido.
DIV
watch the movie 'wild things' and your libido will be fine - if not, seek medical assistance immediately.
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watch the movie 'wild things' and your libido will be fine - if not, seek medical assistance immediately.
I wish I owned a pet panda. :-\
DIV
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I wish I owned a pet panda. :-\
DIV
who me ?
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who me ?
Haha you are cute FP said in a non bigbobs to nasser type of way of course ;D
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Haha you are cute FP said in a non bigbobs to nasser type of way of course ;D
I do have an affinity for furry pets.
That's why I have my white women grow a thick bush, jungle.....
I love Greek women, Italian women........it's all about the bush. ;D
DIV
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I do have an affinity for furry pets.
That's why I have my white women grow a thick bush, jungle.....
I love Greek women, Italian women........it's all about the bush. ;D
DIV
Dude, you are a unique individual. And, I don't say that in a bad way. ;D
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I do have an affinity for furry pets.
That's why I have my white women grow a thick bush, jungle.....
I love Greek women, Italian women........it's all about the bush. ;D
DIV
Im down with the goth girls but not with the bush mate , thats where our tastes differ ;D
I dont mind a lil bit of parsley as a garnish just not the whole plant hahaha :D
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Dude, you are a unique individual. And, I don't say that in a bad way. ;D
Of course I am.
There are very few like me.
My tastes are not typical for a lifter.
Im down with the goth girls but not with the bush mate , thats where our tastes differ ;D
I dont mind a lil bit of parsley as a garnish just not the whole plant hahaha :D
I have turned down women for lack of bush........it's a serious dealbreaker on my end.
I have conversations with women about this........ and I have ended relationships over it.
That's why I prefer Greek or Italian girls, they usually can grow it thick.
DIV
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Haha you are cute FP said in a non bigbobs to nasser type of way of course ;D
:-X
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Of course I am.
There are very few like me.
My tastes are not typical for a lifter.
I have turned down women for lack of bush........it's a serious dealbreaker on my end.
I have conversations with women about this........ and I have ended relationships over it.
That's why I prefer Greek or Italian girls, they usually can grow it thick.
DIV
I think most guys nowadays hate the bush because most of the porn they've grown up on shows Bleach blonde, fake titted, shaved, mannequin looking girls. A rare few like yourself have refused to be programmed by the Adult industry and decide for themselves what they like.
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Not the sexual suppression.
HCG might keep your nuts producing, but it won't necessarily maintain your libido.
DIV
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I would think HCG, cabaser, and a nice dose of test would solve the sexual side effects.
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It is important to note that deca contributes to intramuscular fat gain, which is very very hard to distinguish from lean muscle. You can measure bodyfat, intracellular fluid retention within the muscles, the extracellular fluid retention and fat levels outside the muscle, but to actually measure intramuscular fat levels is very very hard. Mainly because fat can at time have the same density of the muscles (especially in non weight training patients.)
Deca was RX'd in the past because of the benefits of (potential) intramuscular fat gains (in addition to the muscle preservation properties the anabolic side contributing to combat wasting) for HIV patients because of the popularity at the time of the addition of AZT, Retrovir, Epivir, and Videx to the common protease inhibitor cocktails out. These compounds are known for contributing to the rapid fat loss that HIV patients experienced.
As the cocktails were improvished with new meds and as the old cocktails utilizing the nRTI compounds were deemed not suitable for the first phase of treatments for patients, the use of deca in HIV has started to decline over the last few years.
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It is important to note that deca contributes to intramuscular fat gain, which is very very hard to distinguish from lean muscle. You can measure bodyfat, intracellular fluid retention within the muscles, the extracellular fluid retention and fat levels outside the muscle, but to actually measure intramuscular fat levels is very very hard. Mainly because fat can at time have the same density of the muscles (especially in non weight training patients.)
Deca was RX'd in the past because of the benefits of (potential) intramuscular fat gains (in addition to the muscle preservation properties the anabolic side contributing to combat wasting) for HIV patients because of the popularity at the time of the addition of AZT, Retrovir, Epivir, and Videx to the common protease inhibitor cocktails out. These compounds are known for contributing to the rapid fat loss that HIV patients experienced.
As the cocktails were improvished with new meds and as the old cocktails utilizing the nRTI compounds were deemed not suitable for the first phase of treatments for patients, the use of deca in HIV has started to decline over the last few years.
lurker i have never heard of this - can you provide a study that backs your statement regarding deca causing intramuscular fat gain ?
thanks.
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It is important to note that deca contributes to intramuscular fat gain, which is very very hard to distinguish from lean muscle. You can measure bodyfat, intracellular fluid retention within the muscles, the extracellular fluid retention and fat levels outside the muscle, but to actually measure intramuscular fat levels is very very hard. Mainly because fat can at time have the same density of the muscles (especially in non weight training patients.)
Deca was RX'd in the past because of the benefits of (potential) intramuscular fat gains (in addition to the muscle preservation properties the anabolic side contributing to combat wasting) for HIV patients because of the popularity at the time of the addition of AZT, Retrovir, Epivir, and Videx to the common protease inhibitor cocktails out. These compounds are known for contributing to the rapid fat loss that HIV patients experienced.
As the cocktails were improvished with new meds and as the old cocktails utilizing the nRTI compounds were deemed not suitable for the first phase of treatments for patients, the use of deca in HIV has started to decline over the last few years.
Marbled fat gains from Deca?
Never heard of that.
Where did you get the impression that there was a correlation?
DIV
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I would like to see some proof of this as well. I was under the impression that intramuscular fat was an animal trait that did not take place in humans.
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I would like to see some proof of this as well. I was under the impression that intramuscular fat was an animal trait that did not take place in humans.
Actually, some genetic types are predisposed to marbled fat.
Most guys you see with the "beer belly" have that going on with intra-abdominal fat.
That's the hardest to get rid of because it clings to the muscle tissue.
Watch an autopsy or two and you'll see what marbled fat looks like in humans.
DIV
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Actually, some genetic types are predisposed to marbled fat.
Most guys you see with the "beer belly" have that going on with intra-abdominal fat.
That's the hardest to get rid of because it clings to the muscle tissue.
Watch an autopsy or two and you'll see what marbled fat looks like in humans.
DIV
Walking at a brisk pace 6 times a week for 30-60 minutes will reduce it tremendously.
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Walking at a brisk pace 6 times a week for 30-60 minutes will reduce it tremendously.
Those kids who retain the marbled fat don't lose it as easily as the rest of us.
Marbled fat clings and clutches to lean muscle tissue like a whore to cock.
Jack Black, John Goodman, John Candy, Jim & John Belushi are examples of one specific genetic type that has the marbled fat.
DIV
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Those kids who retain the marbled fat don't lose it as easily as the rest of us.
Marbled fat clings and clutches to lean muscle tissue like a whore to cock.
Jack Black, John Goodman, John Candy, Jim & John Belushi are examples of one specific genetic type that has the marbled fat.
DIV
True, however most of the people who have it have a host of other health issues, horrible diet, and in the cases you mentioned massive drug abuse.
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To see evidence of intramuscular fat, you only have to look at a good majority of Type 2 diabetics.
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To see evidence of intramuscular fat, you only have to look at a good majority of Type 2 diabetics.
Yes. ;D
DIV
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BOOOMMM
okay division.... you have been harrassing me by saying ive never used any AAS.... lol, ill bite ;D
do you want to compare who has more experience with various AAS and doseages ? and since this is just a steroid board, how about we compare experience with any and every type of bodybuilding/powerlifting drug ? :)
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Most guys you see with the "beer belly" have that going on with intra-abdominal fat.
That's the hardest to get rid of because it clings to the muscle tissue.
DIV
It's called visceral fat and is actually the first fat to be lost when one loses weight.
It's not the same as having muscle marbled with fat, I don't think.
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It's called visceral fat and is actually the first fat to be lost when one loses weight.
It's not the same as having muscle marbled with fat, I don't think.
Opinions vary, Bilders.
I have heard the complete opposite, that the marbled fat builds over time and is harder to lose........usually the last bodyfat that is burned due to it being inbedded so deep in the muscle tissue.
DIV
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Opinions vary, Bilders.
I have heard the complete opposite, that the marbled fat builds over time and is harder to lose........usually the last bodyfat that is burned due to it being inbedded so deep in the muscle tissue.
DIV
Yeah but I'm not talking about marbled muscle. Visceral fat, the intra-abdominal fat you talked about is around the organs in the gut.
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Yeah but I'm not talking about marbled muscle. Visceral fat, the intra-abdominal fat you talked about is around the organs in the gut.
I misspoke, Bilders, I meant the marbled fat, not intra-abdominal fat. :o
DIV
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so lurker, this marbled fat statement is just a theory of yours ?
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so lurker, this marbled fat statement is just a theory of yours ?
Pandas have alot of marbled fat, even though they eat bamboo. >:(
DIV
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Pandas have alot of marbled fat, even though they eat bamboo. >:(
DIV
yes but while working out with master sifu i lost lots of fat ;)
(http://blog.mlive.com/grpress/2008/06/1kungfu.jpg)
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BOOOMMM
Cok suckers cant use the BOOOM line Im affraid cumdribble
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Cok suckers cant use the BOOOM line Im affraid cumdribble
What's the "BOOOM" line? ???
DIV
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What's the "BOOOM" line? ???
DIV
Its used when an "owning" is being dished out usely with a picture but candi is bumping his own post thinking he has owned you as you didnt answer it first time..
I just took it as he was being ignored ;D
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so lurker, this marbled fat statement is just a theory of yours ?
Bro, you can do a search on anything related to type 2 diabetes, human insulin resistance, nRTIs, HAARTS, intramuscular triglycerides and find evidence of intramuscular fat storage.
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Bro, you can do a search on anything related to type 2 diabetes, human insulin resistance, nRTIs, HAARTS, intramuscular triglycerides and find evidence of intramuscular fat storage.
yes i can, but i can't find a study showing deca causes it ;)
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Its used when an "owning" is being dished out usely with a picture but candi is bumping his own post thinking he has owned you as you didnt answer it first time..
I just took it as he was being ignored ;D
Oh.
I ignore alot of posts........
"Owning" over the interent doesn't mean anything.
"Owning" someone in person, yeah, that's real.
I don't think tbombz would ever meet me in person.
DIV
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"Owning" someone in person, yeah, that's real.
I don't think tbombz would ever meet me in person.
DIV
hahah oh brother... ::)
(http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=170828.0;attach=200442;image)
yeah, id be terrified of you ;D
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hahah oh brother... ::)
(http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=170828.0;attach=200442;image)
yeah, id be terrified of you ;D
I'm guessing you're about half my size, and about a quarter my strength.
Do you actually think posting my picture is helping your case, bro?
You'd never meet me in person.
I guarantee it. ;D
DIV
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He looks pretty thick to me...more of a powerlifter.
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He looks pretty thick to me...more of a powerlifter.
I lift bodybuilders who don't move out of my way. ;D
DIV