It's official Deca is better than test in HIV men

[Fatpanda]

I came across this study last night and thought some here might find it interesting.

Effects of nandrolone decanoate compared with placebo or testosterone on HIV-associated wasting.Gold J, Batterham MJ, Rekers H, Harms MK, Geurts TB, Helmyr PM, Silva de Mendonça J, Falleiros Carvalho LH, Panos G, Pinchera A, Aiuti F, Lee C, Horban A, Gatell J, Phanuphak P, Prasithsirikul W, Gazzard B, Bloch M, Danner SA; E-1696 Study Investigators.
The Albion Street Centre, Surry Hills, NSW, Australia.

Objectives Current research is unclear about the most effective pharmacological agents for managing the loss of weight and fat-free mass common in HIV/AIDS. The aim of this study was to compare nandrolone decanoate with placebo and testosterone. Methods The study was a multicentre randomized double-blind placebo-controlled trial. Three hundred and three adult HIV-positive male patients with a weight loss of 5-15% in the last 12 months, or a body mass index of 17-19 kg/m(2), or a body cell mass/height ratio lower than 13.5 kg/m, were randomly assigned to receive nandrolone decanoate (150 mg), testosterone (250 mg) or placebo intramuscularly every 2 weeks for 12 weeks. Fat-free mass, weight, immune markers and perception of treatment were the main outcome measures. Results Treatment with nandrolone resulted in significantly greater increases in fat-free mass [mean increase 1.34 kg; 95% confidence interval (CI) 0.60; 2.08 kg] and in weight (mean increase 1.48 kg; 95% CI 0.82; 2.14 kg) compared with placebo. The mean increase in weight with nandrolone of 1.00 kg (95% CI 0.27; 1.74 kg) when compared with testosterone was significant, although the difference in fat free mass did not reach significance (mean increase 0.69 kg; 95% CI-0.13; 1.51 kg). Patient perception of benefit was significantly greater in the nandrolone group when compared with both the placebo and the testosterone groups. Conclusions Treatment with nandrolone decanoate increased body weight when compared with placebo and testosterone. Nandrolone decanoate treatment resulted in greater increases in fat-free mass than placebo and demonstrated a trend for a significant increase when compared with testosterone.


ful paper can be downoaded here: http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/fulltext/118567688/PDFSTART

 

how'd you like dem apples?

[WillGrant]

Candi will be happy..hes a starter for teh AIDS 

[Dr Pangloss]

i saw this study.  It's a little surprising.  In the past i have been very down on deca, but i've found a new friend in NPP.   

[WillGrant]

How does this compare/transfer to weight training bodybuilders/athletes that dont have an immune/wasting disease?

[Dr Pangloss]

well, to be honest, the difference between nandrolone and Test was a "trend" that did not reach significance.  This is better than broexperience in terms of a bona fide difference between the two.  However, because it's not significant, i wouldn't run out and make that general assertion.

The second problem is that the exclusion criteria include those involved in resistance training.  In other words, no training, such that the muscle gained was purely from Test and nandrolone.

Lastly, i have seen 2x2 clinicals wherein they examine androgen (Test), placebo, androgen plus resisitance training (rt), and placebo plus rt.  Startlingly enough, some of these studies dont show any interaction between rt and androgens.  In other words, they are independent.  This is with eugonadal healthy hiv patients.  On the other hand, at least one study with stanozolol suggests rt is required for growth.

[Fatpanda]

although the results of this study only show 1lb of difference over the 12 weeks, the deca dose was smaller by 100mg in each shot - so mg for mg is appears to be stronger for mass gains.

a longer study would have been nice, along with rt, but we can but hope...............

[The ChemistV2]

Also the benefits extend to causing Deca dick, which results in the fact these guys won't be spreading their virus as easily as they would with testosterone.

[Emmortal]

Kind of old but still interesting:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1958561

[Fatpanda]

Also the benefits extend to causing Deca dick, which results in the fact these guys won't be spreading their virus as easily as they would with testosterone.

hahahahaha

Kind of old but still interesting:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1958561

another piece of the puzzle 

[liquid_c]

Doesn't surprise me. 

[dustin]

Didn't they either stop producing or administering deca for aids patients a couple of years back? We had a family friend who used deca for aids and he showed me a newspaper clipping about it.

[tbombz]

same thing with the 100mg adrol vs 150mg adrol....    have to wonder how it would differ if it were in healthy men, already with large mnuscles, weight trianing, good diet...etc

these aids patients probably eat 1500cals a day, basically no protein ( less than or equal to 100g per day), no weight training, already far below normal muscle mass levels... etc etc

[WillGrant]

Also the benefits extend to causing Deca dick, which results in the fact these guys won't be spreading their virus as easily as they would with testosterone.

lol 

[Fatpanda]

same thing with the 100mg adrol vs 150mg adrol....    have to wonder how it would differ if it were in healthy men, already with large mnuscles, weight trianing, good diet...etc

these aids patients probably eat 1500cals a day, basically no protein ( less than or equal to 100g per day), no weight training, already far below normal muscle mass levels... etc etc

as before, your logic is flawed.

[tbombz]

as before, your logic is flawed.

what logic?

[Fatpanda]

what logic?

exactly.

[Dr Pangloss]

Kind of old but still interesting:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1958561

i will have to take a look at this work.  It looks interesting.

[tbombz]

exactly.

theres no logic involved in pointing out that theres a difference between hiv patients and experienced bodybuilders

[WillGrant]

theres no logic involved in pointing out that theres a difference between hiv patients and experienced bodybuilders

I agree with Candis no logic 

Hence why I asked this above.

How does this compare/transfer to weight training bodybuilders/athletes that dont have an immune/wasting disease?

[Fatpanda]

theres no logic involved in pointing out that theres a difference between hiv patients and experienced bodybuilders

no - theres no logic is assuming that a steroid that works in a patient with a muscle wasting disease like HIV would not work in healthy subjects.

if anything logic would dictate that the steroid should work better in a healthy individual.

[tbombz]

no - theres no logic is assuming that a steroid that works in a patient with a muscle wasting disease like HIV would not work in healthy subjects.

if anything logic would dictate that the steroid should work better in a healthy individual.

i dont doubt that deca would work in healthy subjects. im just wondering how the study would look if it was done on hard training bodybuilders with past gear use and a high protein/high calorie diet.

[Stavios]

as before, your logic is flawed.

you guys are too hard on Dizzle, he has a lot of good theories IMO.

I might not agree with all of them but a lot of those make sense

[abc123]

you guys are too hard on Dizzle, he has a lot of good theories IMO.

I might not agree with all of them but a lot of those make sense

x2

[DIVISION]

you guys are too hard on Dizzle, he has a lot of good theories IMO.

I might not agree with all of them but a lot of those make sense

The problem most people have with Tbombz is the fact that he acts like an experienced vet, when he basically knows nothing except what his feeble mind can conquer on google.com, then wants to give advice to others based on such....

The guys doesn't even use AAS, but has "theories"?

Based on what?

His ideas lack proper follow-through and "big picture" adaptation, which is why I laugh at most of his posts.

Most people aren't hard on him, they're just pointing out the fallacies in this "ideas".

The vets on this forum don't even pay attention to this guy anymore.......and alot of his posts are deleted so many of you never even see them.

how'd you like dem apples?

Pandapet, you furry bastard.   

We already knew that Deca was the standard for AIDS patients in terms of wasting related illnesses, more so than Testosterone.

It's been that way for years.

I would shave your fur if I could for this.   

i saw this study.  It's a little surprising.  In the past i have been very down on deca, but i've found a new friend in NPP.   

Why surprising, Pangloss?

It's been widely publicized that most AIDS patients have been receiving Deca for awhile now.

I think Deca has some of the most suppressive sides of any anabolics out there, at least in my experience.

When I run a Deca cycle, I'm almost counting down the days until I lose the ability for sexual function.

Goodbye libido......

Deca  needs to be back on your offical shit-list, Dr. Pangloss.


DIV

[Dr Pangloss]

it's only surprising that deca trends toward being better than test.  For one, deca is very syppressive.  I would expect that limit its efficacy.

And, mostly those anabolic/androgenic indeces mean nothing in terms of comparative growth.  For instance stanazolol results in no gains without training, apparently.  So i had discounted my expectations for deca as compared to Test.